LuckyGunner is a very good channel. No surprise Paul watches it. They are both serious and crunch numbers and show stuff in a way, that I, for my part, just can't make out anything I would complain about.
Nah I'm pretty sure lucky gunner doesn't come around here with how paul school him in his own comments when he shows how much of a fake expert he is, especially when he declares nothing matters but expansion and penetration and 357 and 9mm have the exact same effectiveness.
I'm glad to see you referencing Lucky Gunner's videos Paul. Both you and Chris Baker provide some of the least biased, most objective and level headed advice on YT. Great job as always.
I also thought it was excellent that Paul and his team did a test simply to verify that a noted phenomenon did exist, as another person investigating such phenomena had found. It wasn't a particularly sensational result, either. He more or less confirmed what Lucky Gunner had noted. Now, I know Paul isn't trying to do a rigorous scientific study, but this process of independently verifying another's result and publishing it, even when the results aren't flashy or groundbreaking, is something even major research institutions are getting less good at these days. He showed you all of his notes and data collection. He's almost inadvertently doing better science than actual scientists, these days.
@@reedkellner6447 You've got that right. Scientific rigor is secondary to ideology and tunnel vision, and the peer review process is utterly broken. Sincerely, A Highly Disillusioned PhD Student
Look If you had One shot Of Remington green and white box Nine millimeter jacketed hollowpoint In the meat target Would you video it Or just let it slip?
Fisty McBeefPunch The Mossberg had no trouble firing the cheap ammo with no problems.Yes crappy ammo,but obviously the Remington-870,is no comparison to the Mossberg-500
I liked it because it was cheap, allowed me to practice recoil management, ans for shooting targets I focused on the centre of the group. I would not, however, hunt with it trust my life to it. Trusting my life to it is also trusting it with the lives of everyone behind the threat.
Love Paul Harrell like a brother, but I'm not quite sure how you get a "malfunction" with a pump shotgun. I've "short-shucked" plenty of times and it's a malfunction - a brain malfunction!
In April of 2012 (I still have the emails with Federal) I bought a case of Federal Power-Shok 12 ga 2 3/4 in Buckshot F127 00. In over half of the 40 shells I fired, 2 pellets stayed in the bottom of the wad surrounded by white buffer material and made it about 40-50 yards remaining lodged in the wad. I contacted Federal and they had me send them some of the shells and they ran tests and found the exact same thing. They had UPS pick up the rest of the ammo and sent me another case. Interesting to see this problem has not gone away.
@@jackd2083 Depends on your point of view. But if you wanted your rounds to have maximum effectiveness (which you should), losing 2 pellets in a wad regularly is a big deal. It's a major quality control issue, which if unresolved might lead to lower quality ammo down the line due to complacency at the factory.
@@jackd2083 It's not ideal. You want the wad to fall away from the shot charge fairly quickly. A wad is not in any way aerodynamic so it shortens the range and power behind the last two pellets. Plus it skews the trajectory pretty badly. At 40-50 yards the pellets trapped in the wad are not going to hit your target.
"Could that flyer hit an innocent bystander?" Without several meat targets scattered at random locations surrounding a meat target... We will never know.
If the flyer hits a meat target and no one bites down on the pellet when they grill it, did it really hit an innocent bystander or a did it hit the meat target that was donated to the dogs. Have you ever seen his dogs? Bernese mountain dog about 120 lbs and Irish wolfhound close 180+
@@michaelanderson1859 Gotta love Irish Wolfhounds. An old Army buddy of mine had one. He called it a lap dog. If it chooses to sit on your lap, there's nothing you can do about it.
@@starkparker16 All the flight control, even the Hornady Versa-Tite wad, has been great IME. I have a 14" SBS Rem 870, with a fixed modified choke, and the groups from that are very predictable, no fliers.
Years of watching Paul has taught me at least one thing: Remington G&W Box and Winchester White Box ammo is really reliable! And I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed the lack of quality control on Federal blue box ammo!
Years ago as a teenager dove hunting one season, I had a few boxes of Federal bird shot and Winchester bird shot. I noticed I was getting a failure to fire, i.e. trigger wouldn’t pull. Noticed that with the Federal ammo the bolt would not completely close ( Remington 1100 20 gauge). Butted one of the Winchester and Federal together, and the rim of the Federal was slightly larger in diameter. Last time I used Federal shotgun ammo. Never had any issues with Remington or Winchester ammo though.
This is why I enjoy your channel Paul. I learned something new. Never have heard of the ninth pellet flyer before. Thank you and your crew for all your hard work.
I honestly could have watched Paul test five more different brands in the very same fashion this evening. What outstanding entertainment while - at the same time - teaching us. Which raises the question - why is this format with his presentations at the beginning and end of each new load so pleasing? I don't even understand it. 667'th 'like' for the video.
i think it's because it's an old school type of presenting - on point, systematical and logical and with a lot of knowledge compressed in a relatively short time (even in an 1 hour video every minute gives you information so interesting it's easy to rewatch it). most other youtubers are annoying with their macho bullshit (as Paul often says "tattooed bearded guys"), stupid jokes, usually with obnoxious music and overediting, not to mention constantly pursuing the viewer to like/subscribe and advertise stuff.
I like how you professionally worked through the malfunction and did not just edit it out. Excellent video; until now, I was not aware of this phenomenon.
I'd be really curious to see if handloads were any better. If you loaded shells with exactly the same amount of powder and crimped everything exactly the same, would they behave better? Take the mass production tolerances out of the equation.
I too was quite surprised by, what I considered to be, the relatively large difference from shot to shot with the same ammo and same gun. That would never fly in rifle rounds.
When my department used 9 pellet 00 Winchester or Remington, invariably I'd have one flyer out of each round fired at 20 yards. Using Federal Reduced Recoil 8 PLT 00 with the flight control wad, I got 6" groups and no flyers. One guy in our group would get the same size group at 40 yards as I got at 20. His Mossberg 14" barrel had a modified choke as well. We were all impressed.
Paul I know it's a little late but I just watched your rebuttal video. I DO find you long winded but NEVER boring. I enjoy every minute of you videos and appreciate your dry sense of humor.
Paul thank you for your service my son and I love your videos I have been on RUclips for a year and a half you give the gun community a good name God bless you
Just wished to drop you a line Paul saying that this old vet appreciates the information, wit, and humor that you deliver. Good job Sir! Or as they used to say when I served, BZ (Bravo Zulu).
I was trying to figure out why I like Paul so much, and I realized that he’s like one of those teachers you had in high school that were very serious and strict, but were also always the teachers that were the most fair, and willing to teach; the classes you didn’t mess around in. hahaha
In the 1980s I visited the Department of Energy nuclear security program where I was shown short barrel pump shotguns that were fitted with full chokes. This was done to provide greater hit probability at extended range. It would be interesting to run your same test loads through a modified choke and a full choke to see if the groups tighten up or if the pellets deform and spread out further. I also suggest testing reduced recoil rounds to see if they enhance pattern size.
Agree with Sgt Whatley. I get good patterns with an IC choke tube in my 20" 870. Any more choke seems ro open up the patterns due to the extra constriction probably causing pellets to run into each other. I get great slug accuracy too, so i am set.
@@troy9477 I'll have to do some more in-depth testing, but with short barrel shotguns and open chokes I have gotten decent patterns at 25 yards. By decent I mean they hit a man-sized silhouette. Where Paul lives such testing may not be possible unless a smooth-bore "firearm" and arm brace are used. Slugs have offered no problem at this range either.
Thank you for your efforts Paul. As always informative, entertaining, and educational. Don't stop what you do on YT. Its important that we are not fed fake news and take it for Gospel regarding firearm matters and your presentations keep us on the straight and narrow.
Thank you, You have the most grounded Pew-tube channels. Let the facts speak for themselves and test every hypothesis with rigorous and repeatable experiments. This is why I respect you .
This is my thought as well. It would be interesting to take a sample of several groupings, compute the centroid of each grouping, and then record distance from centroid of each pellet. I would be curious to see the normality of the distribution of distances from centroid.
Statistics can be surprising. But I don't think that we are seeing anything surprising here. I was curious if there was a physical effect that resulted in a single pellet consistently being deflected off-target. I don't see any evidence for that. Instead I'm seeing so much variation that people can see patterns when none exist. Certainly there is enough variation that only a larger sample set would produce valid results.
No question he can operate a shotgun better than most. Though, I wonder if maybe he didn't get the action all the way back before starting forward to chamber the next round. He's quick, perhaps a bit too quick.
@@RustyorBroken well thats how he operates shotguns in all of his shotgun videos. I havent seen that happening in his previous videos, and it was a remmington 870. So that could be the issue. Paul may also have been having an off day.
Def short strokes, you can see it if you play it at .25x speed. Just one of the down sides of pump actions when running them quickly. One of the malfunctions was his hand completely slipped off. User error.
I enjoyed the video, Paul. Like I've told you before, I was in the sporting goods business for 35 yrs and I always found that buckshot and slugs generally shoot better groups out of cylinder choke barrels rather than a barrel with any choke in it. Of course, every once in a while, you'll find a choked barrel that will group pretty well with buckshot and slugs, but that's usually an exception rather than the rule. Again, interesting video !
Hey Paul, I recently had a scare in the night, I grabbed my M92 from my night stand and started to clear the house, after the living room I realized I had no idea how to properly clear a room by my self. Anyways I left the window open and the blinds where knocked down by the wind... But I'm now conserned I don't know the proper way to clear a room, would you mind making a video showing how you would clear a room by yourself, preferably with an auto loading hand gun, as that is what I have. Thankyou.
Until Paul puts out a video on that you might check out War Poet he did some YT videos on that topic before starting his own platform. I think his older videos are still on YT.
First tip on clearing a room: DON'T DO IT if you can help it. Room clearing is dangerous enough for trained teams, let alone when it's just yourself. Unless it's absolutely necessary to go check on someone else, it's safer to take up a defensive position, ideally one that allows you to cover avenues of approach for the other occupants in your home.
I know I'm saying this two years later but man, it makes me happy to know you watch lucky gunner. I love Chris and before your channel came into my life he was my gold standard no-nonsense scientific gun content.
It seems, particularly with shotguns, each individual gun/ammo selection must be matched well to achieve the best results. I know that's true with all guns, but it seems especially noticeable with shotguns. When my old agency got several Remington 870s with 14", modified choke barrels, I went out with the entire batch, shooting the issued ammo and found every single one of them shot a different pattern to different points of aim (and this would have been same lot number on the ammo as well, all from the same shipment). All did well, but some shot more consistently low or high, left or right, slightly bigger or smaller patters. Of course, I took my pick of the litter ;). The standard 20" bbl, rifle sighted 870 I had before shot pretty good with buckshot (I don't remember specifically what the pattern was but they all stayed on the silhouette even from 25 yards so long as I put any effort at all into it). But with 1 oz Federal slugs (this was before "Tactical" and "low recoil" slugs) I could make all the holes touch on the slug course which ran from 50, 40, and 25 yards. I needed to drift the rear sight a bit to bring it closer to point of aim but it was an impressive group. Again, all of them were okay, but some better than others and we couldn't really pick and choose our ammo, we got what was issued. I tried an older issued "Featherweight" Ithaca and (again, with issued ammo) the results were nothing to write home about. Ditto with the Hi-Standard shotgun we had as well. In fact, I eventually claimed that bright, shiny, nickle-plated Hi-Standard and kept it loaded with rubber buckshot and rubber ball ammo. It was so distinctive from the other guns we had. Now, all of the results improved when we got the Flite-Control wad "Tactical" buckshot. Again, though, some did better than others. My 14" modified choke barrel gun actually shot worse than some of the cylinder bore guns, though by "worse" the pattern was still ridiculously small even from way farther out than I thought buckshot would normally be used. Interestingly, I think all of our buckshot was 8 pellet.
I noticed the same thing with my issued shotguns. First one was an Ithica with 20 inch barrel. Shot good patterns but kept dropping shells when being racked. Second one was a Smith and Wesson 20 inch barrel. Great patterns but very stiff action. Most recent is a Remington 870 20 inch barrel. Smooth action but does not pattern as well as the other two.
That seems rather interesting, that smoothbores firing shot could show preferences. We kind of expect it when it comes to rifled barrels and rimfires, but that's probably the first I've heard of someone testing a batch of shotguns and seeing that they are not all alike.
Greetings, Mr. Harrell from the lockdown state of Michigan. I am really impressed with the phenomenon of the 9th pellet flier. This presentation is why I love your channel. Simple, easy to understand, and just plain fun to learn new things. Great video, thank you very much.
Hello Paul, FWIW, I retired from the USCG many years ago, and we shot the Rem 870 using 12 ga. 00 exclusively. I was a firearms and use of force instructor. We used various manf. ammunition, it just depended on what we were sent. Our targets were man sized silhouettes, cant recall the manf. What I do recall, distinctly, was that when using Federal ammo, we often had one flyer that either got the paper but not the silhouette or hit the cardboard, and this was very, very common. HTH!
They were Transtar II green or blue colored targets. And the ammo we were issued was military ammo, it just depended who got the contract. I saw federal,Winchester and Olin 12oobuck over a 20 year career in the CG. Some of it was crap and some of it was ok.
Tactical rifleman makes a good argument against shotguns for home defense... in a hostage situation if a bad guy has your loved one in a headlock with a gun pointing at you saying that the shotgun load is too dangerous for that situation being if you shoot the perp you can also injure or kill the hostage..love both of your channels they’re very informative
I like how he doesn't hesitate to say he got the idea for the video from lucky gunner. Dont think a lot of creators would do that. And it was a serious nugget of wisdom he dropped for a young guy like me when he said "good science is verifiable, deniable, and repeatable"
Makes me wonder a couple of things. Why does that one pellet tend to be a flyer? And I know this might seem odd but I wonder if one pellet would tend to be a flyer if you shot a shell of eight pellets. Just a thought.
If I remember correctly when Remington introduced Tac 8 buckshot years ago one of the selling points was it had 8 pellets which were stacked in an order different from their traditional 9 pellet load. This, they claimed, eliminated the "9th pellet flyer". I think Tom Givens discusses 8 vs 9 pellet loads in his classes explaining how the pellets are arranged in the shell has an impact on their pattern on the target. I have not heard this directly from Mr Givens but had heard it attributed to him several times by people who have attended his classes.
@@pbp6741 Yeah, LuckyGunner said that has been proposed to explain it, although IIRC he didn't actually try to explain it himself. However, I'm now quite confident the phenomenon is real and the packing geometry seems like a reasonable explanation. I'd be interested to know what would happen with 12 pellets of 00 buckshot.
Kelton Oliver Twelve or 15 pellets (3” shells) would have a similar 3 on 3 on 3 ... packing as nine-pellet. Also, I neglected to note this packing is specific to double-aught in 12-gauge.
Take away being.....be it your favorite 22lr, your 12GA or any firearm in your collection; know the point of impact for the chosen load in said weapon. Look.....it's not raining but will be in an hour or so. Thank you Paul for all you and your crew do and for the time and effort it takes.
I don't think the "9th pellet flyer" phenomena is enough a difference to matter because most human torsos are larger than most paper targets and there isnt any recorded instances of 9th pellet flyer fatalities or injuries. So is 12 gauge 9 pellet still good for home defense im going to say yes.....is it good for a burglar holding your waifu pillow hostage while you deliver a cheesy 80's one line before turning him into somebody that you used to know? I'm going to say no.
Tumbling dice effect, when your hot you're hot, when your not you're not. Lead out at the muzzle has to have some contact and resulting flight deviations. I'm no expert, but the term scatter gun comes to mind. Great info!
This definitely gave me something to think about. I have a Mossberg 500 & a Remington 870, each with 20 inch barrels. As soon as the ranges are allowed to open again in NJ after the "Beer" restrictions I'm going to perform these same tests to determine which are more effective and safe for my use in a home defense shotgun needs. Have a Happy & Healthy Memorial Day Weekend. Right now it's raining here at the Jersey Shore so we'll see how the weekend goes for us still living under the many "beer" restrictions.
Paul's citing the scientific method as being a repeatable, verifiable process...I wish more ppl understood & followed suit instead of just running off at the mouth blathering opinion w/o facts. One of MANY reasons why I enjoy & love Paul's content!!
Ha ha, I have the reverse problem. One girl joked that she might have to pay me to quit; I kept going (W/ no little blue pill) longer than she could handle orgasming.
Hornady makes a reduced recoil load with only eight 00 pellets. Avg velocity, depending on variant, is 1,100 fps - 1,300 fps (or thereabouts). Reduced recoil/velocity loads tend to produce tighter groups. The reason is simple, less force at the muzzle to disrupt the load. Combine that with only 8 pellets and you have the makings of what could be a "no-flyer" load. Thanks for taking the time.
Fur, feathers, or facemask. If Paul's hunting you, be afraid...….be very afraid ! Another great video showing the value of testing ammo to see what works best in your firearm. Thanks Paul
Actually none of those impacts were "flyers" in my eyes. If you would continuously shoot the same sport you would get aperfectly round hole pretty quickly, that is because there are notz flyers, but at such a low number of impacts per shot, statisticall there will be groups and we tend to pick our groups as such that there is a flyer. That is not predictable though, as your "hit zone" always is a pretty perfect circle and all bullets will hit within that circle.
I did watch the Lucky Gunner’s video on this a while back and wondered if you had ever come across this phenomenon or if you had already covered this topic in a video I hadn’t seen yet. Thank you Paul for doing this video. 👍🏻
As a shotgun owner, I wanna say thanks for calling this to my attention. I was unaware of this. Glad I learned something today. That's why I love your channel Mr. Harrell.
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](/img/1.gif)
These Paul Harrell action figures are getting really life like.
but can they shoot?
I'm pretty sure Paul wouldn't sell anything that accepted a Glock mag. Beretta 92FS on the other hand....
But do they come with yabuts and caveats?
I'm almost certain they would be on the back of the package.
@@RustyorBroken 🤣 yep
If I were LuckyGunner, I'd consider this as a compliment. 👍
I'm betting the world is full of people who wish they felt as good as LuckyGunner right now.
@Robert Bemister Well, there's probably one person who doesn't feel this way, given a recent video...
It's a good channel.
LuckyGunner is a very good channel. No surprise Paul watches it. They are both serious and crunch numbers and show stuff in a way, that I, for my part, just can't make out anything I would complain about.
Nah I'm pretty sure lucky gunner doesn't come around here with how paul school him in his own comments when he shows how much of a fake expert he is, especially when he declares nothing matters but expansion and penetration and 357 and 9mm have the exact same effectiveness.
I'm glad to see you referencing Lucky Gunner's videos Paul. Both you and Chris Baker provide some of the least biased, most objective and level headed advice on YT. Great job as always.
I totally second that statement! Always top-notch presentations by both gentlemen 👍😆
I'd like to see a collaboration video with Manny and Paul.
I also thought it was excellent that Paul and his team did a test simply to verify that a noted phenomenon did exist, as another person investigating such phenomena had found. It wasn't a particularly sensational result, either. He more or less confirmed what Lucky Gunner had noted. Now, I know Paul isn't trying to do a rigorous scientific study, but this process of independently verifying another's result and publishing it, even when the results aren't flashy or groundbreaking, is something even major research institutions are getting less good at these days. He showed you all of his notes and data collection. He's almost inadvertently doing better science than actual scientists, these days.
Lucky gunners M1 video was the best of 2019 in my opinion 🤣🤣
@@reedkellner6447 You've got that right. Scientific rigor is secondary to ideology and tunnel vision, and the peer review process is utterly broken.
Sincerely, A Highly Disillusioned PhD Student
If there was a rap album of just Paul naming ammo types I would bump that so hard.
@Keith The Faith Whacchu say now Chuck?
Rap ? Thats funny. If I really heard that I would be so confused . Maybe the 'Eagles' that would be
ok. Or that one , 8675-309 I got it.
YES
Look
If you had
One shot
Of Remington green and white box
Nine millimeter jacketed hollowpoint
In the meat target
Would you video it
Or just let it slip?
David Colter
Didn’t see that coming
...now I have mom’s spaghetti on my white shirt...
I want a T-shirt that says "You be the judge".
I want a T-shirt that says "There's no replacement for shot placement "
YES I WOULD BUY
I want a T-shirt that says "Do not read this under penalty of law."
Just let me buy a Paul Harrell action figure. Send it topless and I'll make my own t-shirts for it.
I want "please bear with gunfire you hear in the background."
My takeaway, avoid “Suprema Premium Buckshot”.
Fisty McBeefPunch The Mossberg had no trouble firing the cheap ammo with no problems.Yes crappy ammo,but obviously the Remington-870,is no comparison to the Mossberg-500
I picked up a ton of it from WalMart for $5/box for the 00 Buckshot, I'll make use of it.
Sometimes you have to use what you can get.
It's made to spread out as much as possible it seems lol. Floor to ceiling coverage down a long enough hallway
I liked it because it was cheap, allowed me to practice recoil management, ans for shooting targets I focused on the centre of the group.
I would not, however, hunt with it trust my life to it. Trusting my life to it is also trusting it with the lives of everyone behind the threat.
The "malfunctions" were just pure stagefright on the part of the cartridge to be evaluated by HIM!
Which is worse
Failure to perform
Or
Premature ...
🤣🤣
Yep, they basically just shit themselves.
Love Paul Harrell like a brother, but I'm not quite sure how you get a "malfunction" with a pump shotgun. I've "short-shucked" plenty of times and it's a malfunction - a brain malfunction!
I would have liked to have seen more analysis and comment on the malfunctions.
@@SiFiFreak Failure to perform
In April of 2012 (I still have the emails with Federal) I bought a case of Federal Power-Shok 12 ga 2 3/4 in Buckshot F127 00. In over half of the 40 shells I fired, 2 pellets stayed in the bottom of the wad surrounded by white buffer material and made it about 40-50 yards remaining lodged in the wad. I contacted Federal and they had me send them some of the shells and they ran tests and found the exact same thing. They had UPS pick up the rest of the ammo and sent me another case. Interesting to see this problem has not gone away.
How did the new case perform?
If the wad hits the target with the 2 pellets in it is it an issue? I don’t see the problem but I don’t own a shotgun either.
@@jackd2083 Depends on your point of view. But if you wanted your rounds to have maximum effectiveness (which you should), losing 2 pellets in a wad regularly is a big deal. It's a major quality control issue, which if unresolved might lead to lower quality ammo down the line due to complacency at the factory.
@@jackd2083 It's not ideal. You want the wad to fall away from the shot charge fairly quickly. A wad is not in any way aerodynamic so it shortens the range and power behind the last two pellets. Plus it skews the trajectory pretty badly. At 40-50 yards the pellets trapped in the wad are not going to hit your target.
@@Stigstigster It was better, but a few months later a friend of mine bought a case from Federal with a different lot number and had the same issue.
"Could that flyer hit an innocent bystander?"
Without several meat targets scattered at random locations surrounding a meat target...
We will never know.
If the flyer hits a meat target and no one bites down on the pellet when they grill it, did it really hit an innocent bystander or a did it hit the meat target that was donated to the dogs. Have you ever seen his dogs? Bernese mountain dog about 120 lbs and Irish wolfhound close 180+
Want to see!!!
@@michaelanderson1859 Gotta love Irish Wolfhounds. An old Army buddy of mine had one. He called it a lap dog. If it chooses to sit on your lap, there's nothing you can do about it.
I like the way you think!
[angry pork rib and bag of orange noises]
Saw "Paul Harrel" as soon as I sat and turned on tablet, Immediately had to watch.
Paul, love your presentations. Scientific method + firearms + you = entertaining and informative. I was the judge.
.
And that's why I'm sticking to my...
Federal Law Enforcement
12 gauge
2 3/4"
8 pellet
00 Buck
with Flight Control wad
.
What about the rarer 12 pellet load?
I like to control the flight of all my wads.
Is that a good choice?
@@starkparker16 All the flight control, even the Hornady Versa-Tite wad, has been great IME. I have a 14" SBS Rem 870, with a fixed modified choke, and the groups from that are very predictable, no fliers.
@@marzcapone9939 I appreciate the info but I would have settled for "You be the judge."
Lucky gunner makes some very high quality videos, nice to see Paul give him a nice bump.
Years of watching Paul has taught me at least one thing: Remington G&W Box and Winchester White Box ammo is really reliable! And I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed the lack of quality control on Federal blue box ammo!
I have a slight hearing impediment, so whenever he lists the ammo, it sounds like chef Johanson to me . . .
Years ago as a teenager dove hunting one season, I had a few boxes of Federal bird shot and Winchester bird shot. I noticed I was getting a failure to fire, i.e. trigger wouldn’t pull. Noticed that with the Federal ammo the bolt would not completely close ( Remington 1100 20 gauge). Butted one of the Winchester and Federal together, and the rim of the Federal was slightly larger in diameter. Last time I used Federal shotgun ammo. Never had any issues with Remington or Winchester ammo though.
@Travis Thacker, Cost cutting that cuts efficiency, effectiveness and reliability (plus added gov't regs) results in poor economy and poorer results.
This is why I enjoy your channel Paul. I learned something new.
Never have heard of the ninth pellet flyer before. Thank you and your crew for all your hard work.
I very much agree that Paul's cleaning and maintenance regimen would be very popular series. Thank you Sir for what you are doing here.
We will have to take this to taufledermaus, and slow mode.
Would be nice collaboration. Might be very revealing.
That would be pretty good. He's great on those slow-mos.
Kraig Means Excellent idea!
For sure. He'll be pissed he didn't think of that. Hope you sent that idea to him too, and we can pretend this never happened 🤐
Would they do a buckshot video? They seem to specialize in slugs.
I honestly could have watched Paul test five more different brands in the very same fashion this evening. What outstanding entertainment while - at the same time - teaching us. Which raises the question - why is this format with his presentations at the beginning and end of each new load so pleasing? I don't even understand it. 667'th 'like' for the video.
i think it's because it's an old school type of presenting - on point, systematical and logical and with a lot of knowledge compressed in a relatively short time (even in an 1 hour video every minute gives you information so interesting it's easy to rewatch it). most other youtubers are annoying with their macho bullshit (as Paul often says "tattooed bearded guys"), stupid jokes, usually with obnoxious music and overediting, not to mention constantly pursuing the viewer to like/subscribe and advertise stuff.
I like how you professionally worked through the malfunction and did not just edit it out. Excellent video; until now, I was not aware of this phenomenon.
Ah, few things make me laugh, but when Paul described the suprema as 'premium...' the look on his face had me in stitches.
What I found interesting is how different the pattern can be from 4 shots of the same ammunition from the same shotgun.
I am betting I could hit the cardboard 'somewhere' by firing a shot gun that fast. Is THAT a flyer? probably not, its just me.
I'd be really curious to see if handloads were any better. If you loaded shells with exactly the same amount of powder and crimped everything exactly the same, would they behave better? Take the mass production tolerances out of the equation.
I too was quite surprised by, what I considered to be, the relatively large difference from shot to shot with the same ammo and same gun. That would never fly in rifle rounds.
That's shot for ya.
Serious pattern entropy demonstration!
When my department used 9 pellet 00 Winchester or Remington, invariably I'd have one flyer out of each round fired at 20 yards. Using Federal Reduced Recoil 8 PLT 00 with the flight control wad, I got 6" groups and no flyers. One guy in our group would get the same size group at 40 yards as I got at 20. His Mossberg 14" barrel had a modified choke as well. We were all impressed.
I'm a simple man, I see Paul, I click and like
that federal buck ammo is like an athlete's protective gear, it generally keeps two pellets in the cup
0:47 I do so completely enjoy it when different people concur. Excellent video as always.
Paul I know it's a little late but I just watched your rebuttal video. I DO find you long winded but NEVER boring. I enjoy every minute of you videos and appreciate your dry sense of humor.
Hey Paul, hope all is well with you. Love the content as always. Stay safe and God bless
Paul thank you for your service my son and I love your videos I have been on RUclips for a year and a half you give the gun community a good name God bless you
The one thumbs down was from suprema ammunition. 😁
Or Federal. . .
I thought it was a Gun Nuts fan.
James Cooper
He has fans still?
@@jackd2083 Couple
@@jamescooper2618 Mom & Dad?
We used to have a saying that: "There is a Lawyer attached to every bullet (or pellet)". The flyers are important.
"Oh, that little guy? I wouldn't worry about that little guy..."
Good enough for me!
Niiiice. One of my favorite movies.
Just wished to drop you a line Paul saying that this old vet appreciates the information, wit, and humor that you deliver. Good job Sir! Or as they used to say when I served, BZ (Bravo Zulu).
that echo is incredible. If you have good ears you can probably hear the shots roaming around that valles today.
Watching a Paul Harrell video and getting a new Paul Harrell video... this day just keeps getting better.
The picture quality looks nice Paul, seems like something changed. Grats on 500k!
The audio quality has also immensely improved over the course of the past few months!
Then again there's nothing like Paul's older "VHS style" low resolution videos to put me in a warm, nostalgic frame of mind...;^)
Thanks for all you do Paul. You make some great contributions to any conversation.
I was trying to figure out why I like Paul so much, and I realized that he’s like one of those teachers you had in high school that were very serious and strict, but were also always the teachers that were the most fair, and willing to teach; the classes you didn’t mess around in. hahaha
And I absolutely love your choice of words for explaining simple facts and just the way they are
In the 1980s I visited the Department of Energy nuclear security program where I was shown short barrel pump shotguns that were fitted with full chokes. This was done to provide greater hit probability at extended range. It would be interesting to run your same test loads through a modified choke and a full choke to see if the groups tighten up or if the pellets deform and spread out further. I also suggest testing reduced recoil rounds to see if they enhance pattern size.
I can speak on the modified choke performance. Using Remington tac 8 the pattern is larger than with an Improved Cylinder choke.
Agree with Sgt Whatley. I get good patterns with an IC choke tube in my 20" 870. Any more choke seems ro open up the patterns due to the extra constriction probably causing pellets to run into each other. I get great slug accuracy too, so i am set.
@@troy9477 I'll have to do some more in-depth testing, but with short barrel shotguns and open chokes I have gotten decent patterns at 25 yards. By decent I mean they hit a man-sized silhouette. Where Paul lives such testing may not be possible unless a smooth-bore "firearm" and arm brace are used. Slugs have offered no problem at this range either.
Thank you for your efforts Paul. As always informative, entertaining, and educational. Don't stop what you do on YT. Its important that we are not fed fake news and take it for Gospel regarding firearm matters and your presentations keep us on the straight and narrow.
Paul could you do a presentation on full chokes in shotguns and the pros/cons and different effect on various ammunitions?
Thank you, You have the most grounded Pew-tube channels. Let the facts speak for themselves and test every hypothesis with rigorous and repeatable experiments. This is why I respect you .
This is a great statistical question. I am not convinced that we are seeing anything other than randomness. But an hard to convince.
This is my thought as well.
It would be interesting to take a sample of several groupings, compute the centroid of each grouping, and then record distance from centroid of each pellet. I would be curious to see the normality of the distribution of distances from centroid.
Statistics can be surprising. But I don't think that we are seeing anything surprising here.
I was curious if there was a physical effect that resulted in a single pellet consistently being deflected off-target. I don't see any evidence for that. Instead I'm seeing so much variation that people can see patterns when none exist. Certainly there is enough variation that only a larger sample set would produce valid results.
The short version is; Buy small boxes of buckshot and find the one type your shotgun likes the best. Another great video by Paul and the crew.
the malfunctions concern me the most.
That because you were not hit by the 9th pellet.
@@jshicke Haha!
No question he can operate a shotgun better than most. Though, I wonder if maybe he didn't get the action all the way back before starting forward to chamber the next round. He's quick, perhaps a bit too quick.
@@RustyorBroken well thats how he operates shotguns in all of his shotgun videos. I havent seen that happening in his previous videos, and it was a remmington 870. So that could be the issue. Paul may also have been having an off day.
Def short strokes, you can see it if you play it at .25x speed. Just one of the down sides of pump actions when running them quickly. One of the malfunctions was his hand completely slipped off. User error.
Beautifully done. Properly empirically tested. And very enjoyable.
When Chuck Norris goes to sleep at night, he checks under his bed for Paul Harrell. Great presentation as usual!
Chuck Norris carries Paul Harrell for self-defense.
One thing Paul I got to say I absolutely love your dry humor to the stupid ignorant questions or opinions people make you are a pillar of virtue
"Maybe" it's "hard to tell" but I really miss "being the judge".
I, for one, don't want the LEOs that inevitably watch his videos to "be the judge"
I enjoyed the video, Paul. Like I've told you before, I was in the sporting goods business for 35 yrs and I always found that buckshot and slugs generally shoot better groups out of cylinder choke barrels rather than a barrel with any choke in it. Of course, every once in a while, you'll find a choked barrel that will group pretty well with buckshot and slugs, but that's usually an exception rather than the rule. Again, interesting video !
There's more replication on Paul's channel than most University science departments :P
Is that a good or bad thing?
@@maxk5038 Cuz unies typically don't replicate research. They are funded to do original research.
@@SBCBears yeah, but you would hope that they would run their own experiments more than once...
@@maxk5038You be the judge.
@PCShogun good one lol
Professor Harrell coming in with the answers I really care about right now. Thank you sir
Hey Paul, I recently had a scare in the night, I grabbed my M92 from my night stand and started to clear the house, after the living room I realized I had no idea how to properly clear a room by my self. Anyways I left the window open and the blinds where knocked down by the wind... But I'm now conserned I don't know the proper way to clear a room, would you mind making a video showing how you would clear a room by yourself, preferably with an auto loading hand gun, as that is what I have. Thankyou.
Until Paul puts out a video on that you might check out War Poet he did some YT videos on that topic before starting his own platform. I think his older videos are still on YT.
First tip on clearing a room: DON'T DO IT if you can help it. Room clearing is dangerous enough for trained teams, let alone when it's just yourself. Unless it's absolutely necessary to go check on someone else, it's safer to take up a defensive position, ideally one that allows you to cover avenues of approach for the other occupants in your home.
Jaron absolutely right . Call the cops and cover the stars till they arrive . Do nt try being a one man swat squad .
Like others have said not really a good idea, but a mirror on a stick couldn't hurt...
There's no way he's going to do a tutorial on that. He already has to issue enough disclaimers on his videos where he simply tests ammo or weapons.
Good information for a brand-new-to-shotguns 12ga owner like myself. Thank you Paul!
Get notification. Check. Saved to play later playlist. Check. Grab dinner, get comfy, and watch what you call a professional. You be the judge.
Hope your dinner was heavy on grapefruit and pork chops
Check!
I know I'm saying this two years later but man, it makes me happy to know you watch lucky gunner. I love Chris and before your channel came into my life he was my gold standard no-nonsense scientific gun content.
It seems, particularly with shotguns, each individual gun/ammo selection must be matched well to achieve the best results. I know that's true with all guns, but it seems especially noticeable with shotguns. When my old agency got several Remington 870s with 14", modified choke barrels, I went out with the entire batch, shooting the issued ammo and found every single one of them shot a different pattern to different points of aim (and this would have been same lot number on the ammo as well, all from the same shipment). All did well, but some shot more consistently low or high, left or right, slightly bigger or smaller patters. Of course, I took my pick of the litter ;). The standard 20" bbl, rifle sighted 870 I had before shot pretty good with buckshot (I don't remember specifically what the pattern was but they all stayed on the silhouette even from 25 yards so long as I put any effort at all into it). But with 1 oz Federal slugs (this was before "Tactical" and "low recoil" slugs) I could make all the holes touch on the slug course which ran from 50, 40, and 25 yards. I needed to drift the rear sight a bit to bring it closer to point of aim but it was an impressive group. Again, all of them were okay, but some better than others and we couldn't really pick and choose our ammo, we got what was issued. I tried an older issued "Featherweight" Ithaca and (again, with issued ammo) the results were nothing to write home about. Ditto with the Hi-Standard shotgun we had as well. In fact, I eventually claimed that bright, shiny, nickle-plated Hi-Standard and kept it loaded with rubber buckshot and rubber ball ammo. It was so distinctive from the other guns we had. Now, all of the results improved when we got the Flite-Control wad "Tactical" buckshot. Again, though, some did better than others. My 14" modified choke barrel gun actually shot worse than some of the cylinder bore guns, though by "worse" the pattern was still ridiculously small even from way farther out than I thought buckshot would normally be used. Interestingly, I think all of our buckshot was 8 pellet.
I noticed the same thing with my issued shotguns. First one was an Ithica with 20 inch barrel. Shot good patterns but kept dropping shells when being racked. Second one was a Smith and Wesson 20 inch barrel. Great patterns but very stiff action. Most recent is a Remington 870 20 inch barrel. Smooth action but does not pattern as well as the other two.
That seems rather interesting, that smoothbores firing shot could show preferences. We kind of expect it when it comes to rifled barrels and rimfires, but that's probably the first I've heard of someone testing a batch of shotguns and seeing that they are not all alike.
With that 20" rifle sighted 870 what difference, if any, did you notice in POI between the buckshot and slugs?
Happy Memorial day, Paul.
Thank you for your service, we appreciate everything you do.
Paul and Lucky Gunner are 1. Verifiable 2. Falsifiable and 3. Repeatable.
Gun Nut Media is 1. Intoxicatable 2. Self-delusional and 3. Laughable.
That one had me laugh out loud enough to almost soil my underwear 😁😁😁
Be sure to count those on your fingers in the "proper" way for Gun Nards. Longtime Paul viewers will know what I mean.
I concur.
MissingNOLA
1 ☝️ 2 🖕
@@lehampton1 Exactly! Just remember to keep your finger off the birdie until pointed at the intended target. :)
Greetings, Mr. Harrell from the lockdown state of Michigan. I am really impressed with the phenomenon of the 9th pellet flier. This presentation is why I love your channel. Simple, easy to understand, and just plain fun to learn new things. Great video, thank you very much.
Rem. blue box did well imo, having the opposite of fliers: stickers, or "no spreaders," a good trait if centered.
Hello Paul, FWIW, I retired from the USCG many years ago, and we shot the Rem 870 using 12 ga. 00 exclusively. I was a firearms and use of force instructor. We used various manf. ammunition, it just depended on what we were sent. Our targets were man sized silhouettes, cant recall the manf. What I do recall, distinctly, was that when using Federal ammo, we often had one flyer that either got the paper but not the silhouette or hit the cardboard, and this was very, very common. HTH!
They were Transtar II green or blue colored targets. And the ammo we were issued was military ammo, it just depended who got the contract. I saw federal,Winchester and Olin 12oobuck over a 20 year career in the CG. Some of it was crap and some of it was ok.
Someday I’m gonna find that leisure suit video in the intro....my vote for the action doll clothing that can be interchanged! 😂👍
I believe it was a presentation on snub nose .38 revolvers, or on a specific usage of them
You’re welcome: ruclips.net/video/2Ru1SldF5BM/видео.html
PB P Thank you! Paul at his best!
@@codyaaron2129 "snub nose .38 revolvers" Natch, Jackson! Now gimme some skin!
Awesome to see two of my favorite channels doing videos that compliment each other
Paul's clothing would be perfect camo in a cartboard factory.
Ha! Gottem!
What's cartboard?
@@svtirefire The paper-ish beige stuff a lot of boxes are made from. He pinned the silhouette targets to large sheets of cardboard.
Thomas Raahauge you described cardboard. svtirefire was asking what is cartboard.
@@svtirefire A type of leather you get from skinning a cart.
Another excellent video. I always appreciate your attention to detail and honest assessments. Please keep these coming!
One dislike in 16 minutes, I'ld call THAT one, a flyer!! And yes, THAT one has a few friends by now.
Good testing protocol, interesting and useful information. Paul Harrell does a good job, smart man.
"Premium Suprema" got a decent laugh out of me.
Very informative. I'm presently removing that "dreaded" 9th pellet from every store-bought shell I own. Fixed It !!
Im usually this early, and my wife just sighs. 😒
She sounds like a real battle axe.
My wife sighs too. But it’s usually at my shenanigans. Google me. I’m all over the damn place!
Thank you for posting this. I saw the video you mentioned. I love your method of shooting and racking the slide as one motion.
Paul looking at super man. “They call you super man, I’m not impressed”.
Tactical rifleman makes a good argument against shotguns for home defense... in a hostage situation if a bad guy has your loved one in a headlock with a gun pointing at you saying that the shotgun load is too dangerous for that situation being if you shoot the perp you can also injure or kill the hostage..love both of your channels they’re very informative
What you do is use a rifled barrel, then everything is a flier
I like how he doesn't hesitate to say he got the idea for the video from lucky gunner. Dont think a lot of creators would do that. And it was a serious nugget of wisdom he dropped for a young guy like me when he said "good science is verifiable, deniable, and repeatable"
Makes me wonder a couple of things.
Why does that one pellet tend to be a flyer? And I know this might seem odd but I wonder if one pellet would tend to be a flyer if you shot a shell of eight pellets. Just a thought.
chris carlson Supposedly because of the difference in geometry of packing nine versus eight pellets in a 12-gauge casing.
If I remember correctly when Remington introduced Tac 8 buckshot years ago one of the selling points was it had 8 pellets which were stacked in an order different from their traditional 9 pellet load. This, they claimed, eliminated the "9th pellet flyer". I think Tom Givens discusses 8 vs 9 pellet loads in his classes explaining how the pellets are arranged in the shell has an impact on their pattern on the target. I have not heard this directly from Mr Givens but had heard it attributed to him several times by people who have attended his classes.
@@pbp6741 Yeah, LuckyGunner said that has been proposed to explain it, although IIRC he didn't actually try to explain it himself. However, I'm now quite confident the phenomenon is real and the packing geometry seems like a reasonable explanation. I'd be interested to know what would happen with 12 pellets of 00 buckshot.
Your assumption is correct according to this article: www.luckygunner.com/lounge/more-stuff-you-should-know-about-buckshot-part-2/
Kelton Oliver Twelve or 15 pellets (3” shells) would have a similar 3 on 3 on 3 ... packing as nine-pellet.
Also, I neglected to note this packing is specific to double-aught in 12-gauge.
Take away being.....be it your favorite 22lr, your 12GA or any firearm in your collection; know the point of impact for the chosen load in said weapon.
Look.....it's not raining but will be in an hour or so. Thank you Paul for all you and your crew do and for the time and effort it takes.
I don't think the "9th pellet flyer" phenomena is enough a difference to matter because most human torsos are larger than most paper targets and there isnt any recorded instances of 9th pellet flyer fatalities or injuries. So is 12 gauge 9 pellet still good for home defense im going to say yes.....is it good for a burglar holding your waifu pillow hostage while you deliver a cheesy 80's one line before turning him into somebody that you used to know? I'm going to say no.
should have ended with "you be the judge"
Tumbling dice effect, when your hot you're hot, when your not you're not. Lead out at the muzzle has to have some contact and resulting flight deviations. I'm no expert, but the term scatter gun comes to mind. Great info!
maybe it's a 1st pellet flyer and the 9th one is doing its best
Thanks again for teaching us something new.
As always love your sense of humor.
Uploaded 1 minute ago. 89 views, 82 "likes" 👍
Good job gents, keepit up!
This is why this is a great channel. There is simply less BS and more testing and generation of data.
Dang, that was a short one. I didn't even have time to finish my drink.
That's what she said!😅
My advice to you is to start drinking faster. 🤣
Well go start another paul harrel video ...then you have a great excuse to have another drink
Are you Caleb????
No, he would have had at least 2 watered down bourbon drinks. 🤪
@@d.hayward5232 CALEB,what a twat.
This definitely gave me something to think about. I have a Mossberg 500 & a Remington 870, each with 20 inch barrels. As soon as the ranges are allowed to open again in NJ after the "Beer" restrictions I'm going to perform these same tests to determine which are more effective and safe for my use in a home defense shotgun needs. Have a Happy & Healthy Memorial Day Weekend. Right now it's raining here at the Jersey Shore so we'll see how the weekend goes for us still living under the many "beer" restrictions.
Wow, 6 seconds ago. Very early this time.
Paul's citing the scientific method as being a repeatable, verifiable process...I wish more ppl understood & followed suit instead of just running off at the mouth blathering opinion w/o facts. One of MANY reasons why I enjoy & love Paul's content!!
Last time I came this early my girlfriend left... lol love the videos!
Ha ha, I have the reverse problem. One girl joked that she might have to pay me to quit; I kept going (W/ no little blue pill) longer than she could handle orgasming.
Hornady makes a reduced recoil load with only eight 00 pellets. Avg velocity, depending on variant, is 1,100 fps - 1,300 fps (or thereabouts). Reduced recoil/velocity loads tend to produce tighter groups. The reason is simple, less force at the muzzle to disrupt the load. Combine that with only 8 pellets and you have the makings of what could be a "no-flyer" load.
Thanks for taking the time.
When I reload buckshot, I leave the 9th pellet out. Sometimes it's hard to tell which one is #9 though. ;)
🤪🤪🤪
Fur, feathers, or facemask. If Paul's hunting you, be afraid...….be very afraid ! Another great video showing the value of testing ammo to see what works best in your firearm. Thanks Paul
Actually none of those impacts were "flyers" in my eyes. If you would continuously shoot the same sport you would get aperfectly round hole pretty quickly, that is because there are notz flyers, but at such a low number of impacts per shot, statisticall there will be groups and we tend to pick our groups as such that there is a flyer.
That is not predictable though, as your "hit zone" always is a pretty perfect circle and all bullets will hit within that circle.
I did watch the Lucky Gunner’s video on this a while back and wondered if you had ever come across this phenomenon or if you had already covered this topic in a video I hadn’t seen yet.
Thank you Paul for doing this video.
👍🏻
I'm sure this episode will have a lotta Buck-Shot in it... 0_o Oh dear that was simply horrible, but it had to be said. ~_^
As a shotgun owner, I wanna say thanks for calling this to my attention. I was unaware of this. Glad I learned something today. That's why I love your channel Mr. Harrell.
Another EXCELLENT VIDEO Sir, please stay healthy and safe out there!
Great video. Thanks Paul !
I love how Paul can make a good long video about a super specific thing Keep it up!