Corvette ZR1 vs Audi R8 (HQ) | Top Gear
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Jeremy Clarkson reviews the Audi R8, with it's 5.2 litre Lamborghini V10, 518 break horse power and capable of 0-60mph in 3.6 seconds, it's a bit of a beast. But it's let down by the little things, like the £100,000 price tag. Up next is the Corvette ZR1. Jeremy drove one in California and loved it! But was it just a holiday romance?
First uploaded in standard definition in April 2010
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"The German who designed it will be shot at dawn for his mistake" 😂😂
True! Greetings from Berlin. :-)
Wait, how'd you end up editing that?!
@@netweed09 he time traveled 😂
Yes. It was my father. We miss him dearly. But he made an mistake and had to pay the price.
I was actually offended by this dangerous stereotype. :(
“Enough torque to tenderize an elephant” Jeremy’s idioms are unmatched
It's not an idiom, you totally fizziless wallop. It's a metaphor. It's an analogy.
@@konung5 using uncommon insults doesn’t make you smart nor funny
@@konung5 ok boomer
@@konung5 It's not a metaphor either
@@jrmhd1300 100% of betas who say “ok boomer” swallow on the first date 🤦🏻♂️ I feel bad for your boyfriend
I bet BBC is making most of their revenues on their old TG clips in RUclips hahahahaha
It’s actually mostly from TV license fees (You read that right)
This clip was uploaded in 2013, so your comment seems not relevant.
Crazy
@@Gargulmon As a German I feel you...
precisely why i don't give a thumbs up to any of their clips
Those Corvette exhausts shaking around like that coupled with the noise makes the primal part of me very excited.
Well, that's until you end up in a ball of fire if you care to enjoy it that long.
Honestly I prefer the sound of the Audi's V10 anyway, it's unbeatable
@@netweed09 v8s rule
@@netweed09 V8s are awesome but man the R8 v10 is killer. Thats my favorite car ive ever heard IRL. i saw it on a rainy saturday afternoon after a soccer game on a highway a few years back and ive been in love ever since. one of the sexiest looking cars and one of the sexiest V10 notes ever.
@@antonym24 I love them for different reasons. The V10 sounds like a beauty. But the ZR1? Probably the angriest production car I've ever heard.
Shit quality excites you? That's settled then. Buy 'murican. Tesla has some really crap cars as well, just get the "American made" version and not the ones out of Germany.
You can tell he has very little to complain about with the Audi when he complains about the exclamation mark.......
Isn't that the most blatant thing you could point out? When he reviewed the V8 model he called it "nearly faultless" and he repeats that in this review too
The exclamation mark is indeed an unnecessary and very annoying detail when you notice it though lol
Oh and what the guy above me said too
Well that and the bonkers optional extras.
!
@@alicannonfodderfun8596The optional extras is just how german cars have always been
I always loved the fact that when they reviewed vehicles on this show, the hosts actually drove the vehicles.
Yes, he does try out all the cars he talks about, but he's not actually as good of a driver as the show tries to make you believe he is. A lot of the shots where you can only see the exterior of the car and can't make out his face are done by professionals and edited in to make it look like it's all him. So that's not really him power drifting at insane speeds.
@@dave5194 Then, it must be,,,,,
some might say he punches men at work, and then still wants lunch served hot
he's called the Cluckson!!
@@dave5194 Yeah if you want to see someone powesliding all the way while being visible from the ourside camra that's Tiff in Fifth Gear.
The hardest bit is drifting and as it later uncovered Hammond was unable to drift during Top Gear times so they employed other drivers for this. But it seems like Jeremy knows how to do it properly and it must be rare for him to be displaced.
You can see Jezza clearly sliding at 0:57 so he does know how to slide about
My neighbour has a ZR1 and on British roads it is so wide, but my god it's fast and sounds incredible. Proper mad car
Jeremy Clarkson licking a steering wheel just made my day
Thijs
In this day of Corona maybe he shouldn't do that anymore...
😂🤣👍🏼
P
@@YusufGinnah Don't worry, he got fired from the show years ago...
I've always loved Jeremy's forbidden love affair with the Corvette 😁
It's because he's secretly American and he hates himself for it. All the crap he gives Hammond about being American is because Clarkson actually loves guns, corvettes, and being fat. Still love him, though. Just wish he'd come out of his star-spangled closet.
Just can’t not miss this kinda Clarkson. Hilariously brilliant. Prime attitude.
The R8 is the peak of contemporary design. At my old job, there was a doctor who had his own practice in the same office building I was in. He would drive his black R8 in on nice summer days, and admiring it out of my office window never got old. So beautiful.
I’ve always found the noise the grapes make when clarkson squishes them hilarious for some reason
I really hope those were the type that have seeds in them. That would really be a W
maybe the zr1 knew a brit was at the wheel and wanted payback for colonialism and the revolution
'MERICA
@@ANDREWSAMY562 fuck yeah
Revenge for the revolution? Ummmm, America started the revolution dummy. SMH.
I dont think the Brits could handle our cars and that's why he lost
@@Gorilla_Jones England started it with their taxes without representation. They also shot first at Concord starting the American Revolution. Public school, huh. Nice try at revisionism though.
Given its record-breaking times around the Nurburgring, The ZR1 obviously CAN handle corners...amazingly well. I guess that requires a driver with at least some measure of skill.
6:07 thats when u can see the traction system is off
damn, these many years later for me to notice that.
That’s the way Jeremy likes to drive
Or very bad
it's illegal to turn on traction control in a rwd car
@@Plate_Productions Lol, go away xD
Nice to know America still builds rockets.
This was like 7 years ago
''still'' lol like they ever stopped 😂
New ones much better for sure
@@netweed09 If he had wanted to imply that they had at any point stopped, he would have used 'again' instead of 'still'.
@@trollemall7016 ''Nice to know America again builds rockets.''
,,,, ? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Erm,,, Nurse!!
1:27 when you know he really likes it
Ive always loved the rawness of the z series. The Nurburgring course with ZR1 (Jim Mero) is my favorite example of its potential. Mero had that vehicle under his thumb.
Yep, it demolished the Audi R8 in the corners with a more competent driver, unlike a TV host intentionally keeping his foot down for a more exciting video
Top gear test track times:
Corvette ZR1: 01:20.4
R8 V10: 01:21.6
Your actually wrong.
You’re*
@@calebtarpley2463
You replied to a 7 year old comment.
Go home, bud.
Look human, I’m an ass, I had to
I know people hate American cars for whatever reason. But I think the 2014 corvette is one of the nicest cars I have ever seen.
I agree mate,i agree
+SantaCllaws What? The old one looked sooo much better. The 2014 corvette is without any doubt, ugly!
I think so too.
im a german guy i think the Corvette is much nicer :)
Definitely much nicer than the ugly ass Corvette they just made
Look at record laptimes and the zr1 near the top. It takes a very good driver but the car has a lot of potential in good hands. Its not just fast in the straight line its fast around the track due its carbon ceramic breaks that are standard and magnetic shocks that ferrari borrows from GM:
i don't like corvettes that much, I'm more of a Viper guy but the ZR1 looks like SENSATIONAL fun!
I'm definitely more of an Audi person. Can't beat a NA V10
@@netweed09 yes you can. the w16 and the NA lambo v12
The Audi R8 got the beauty and the handling, meanwhile the Corvette ZR1 got that raw power that we all know we want
r8 ofc
Well, that's not saying the R8 V10 has little power? It's virtually the same, but the american car is built from sweet wrappers so you'd obviously feel it more
Of course. The r8. Corvettes are trash
@@alexmotts are you ok ?
@@netweed09 r8 v10 525 hp. C6 zr1 638 hp.
And the corvette is cheaper, and more reliable and its faster in a straight line and round a track, beating the r8 on the top gear track and round the ring among other places.
The ZR1’s sound lowkey reminds me of lightning McQueen’s sound
He is based on a corvette
i love the way he says 'and on the fourth day it refused to start' makes it sound like a grumpy toddler haha
Cause forth of July wtf
When you realise that the 1st gen r8 looks so much better than the current one!! I miss topgear!
Interesting how Top Gear (on TV) reviewed the C6 variants about four seconds after they hit the market, but they still have yet to touch the C7.
Hammond reviewed C7.
Clarkson reviewed the new zr1 as well
I always love the "in the real world it's faster" like you spend a lot of time chasing another supercar down a race track or, if you're suicidal, the open road at breakneck speed.
I'd think the real world would be far more likely to be a freeway roll race or a blast off a stoplight...and the Vette would monster it.
i get goosebumps watching that zr1 going around the track :D
love it!
5:28 “If America could win its wars so convincingly” haha 😂
We won 2 against the Brits. So, suck on that lol
Do you want to look up lap times? How about the Nurburgring?
ZR1: 7:19.63
R8 V10: 7:44
R8 V8: 8:04
The ZR1 is so much faster than R8 that it's actually laughable.
Everyone knows the ZR1 handled better than almost every car made before 2013, Clarkson just kept a heavy foot for a more exciting showcase
@@saltyfloridaman7163 i remember reading it somewhere that stig said there were some electrical problems with the suspension of the zr1 which was used for review not sure if it is true tho
edit:i found that comment on the other lower quality upload on this channel lol
The ZR1 actually has a faster Nürburgring lap time than the R8.
+Philip M. Actually, Fifth Gear TV show did a comparison test several years ago with the Corvette ZR1, Nissan GTR and the 911 Turbo S (997) and the corvette was the only car with three different drivers (all professional retired F1 race drivers) that couldn't come within 20 seconds of the posted fastest Nurburgring Nordschleife after 6 laps. The Corvette ZR1 is an absolute joke.
+Matthew Lauseng I have to agree with you
+Philip M the C6 z06 is also significantly faster at the Nurburgring, however that v10 audi is faster than a c5 z06... so there's an accomplishment,,, i think,,,
The new Camaro is as well.
@@matthewlauseng8697 5th Gear is a joke
I'd absolutely love a ZR1 or a z06 in the UK. Not the best built or as classy but you'd definitely be the only person to have one. We see R8s all the time.
This has to be my favorite accurate and truthful review of our crazy American Cars!
To be fair for a daily driver supercar, this would be in that thought list. Love the R8
There´s no way I would ever, ever, EVER choose the Corvette over the R8 :D I think that exclamation mark really got me though. Fantastic car.
God I love this clip, one of my favorites for sure. "It's a bit too joyless". Enter ZR1............................. aaaaaaaaaand you're the mad hatter!
?
It's a ridiculous backdated bruiser; a rocket veiled in sweet wrappers that only backdated people can make and charge a bank or 2 for (with the zombie customers who buy them)
@@netweed09 Sounds like sour grapes
@@4477superman Nah. Ok maybe it's just my view in the end for sure but an Audi R8; I don't think I need to have any hard feelings pining for one of those 😁
Probably in my top 3 favorite Clarkson reviews. All the shots, music, and quips from him are just well-timed and edited.
"On the corners, it's a complete mad man." Really? The guy who set the record for the nurburgring (at the time) in that car didn't seem to think so... Maybe you just aren't that good of a driver, Jeremy...
a lap record ex F1 drivers driving in a fifth gear test couldn't replicate, unlike GTR or 911 GT3.
Again another fool with shit for brains. The corvette will be inherently harder to control than the Audi. In other words you need to be a racing driver with the car control that you will never have
0:13 No, it's just an Audi V10. The engine was originally designed and built buy Audi, then dropped in the Gallardo. (which is technically also an Audi if you think about it)
C7 ZO6 is a much better car than the C6 ZR1.
The noise from him running over the grapes was so satisfying.
It's the Audi R8 for mr HANDS DOWN! So much classier. (Drools at dream car mode)
nah not rly
@@IPlayKindred Yes, yes really
@@skylerhickman3646 I find the corvette much more beautiful to look at
@@IPlayKindred Looks are objective sure, but if you ever get to see the quality of the build on both of these cars, the R8 is just so much better done. Each has their own clever mix of both smooth and aggresive lines for sure, but classiness can only be given to the R8 here.
@@skylerhickman3646 Lol the R8 is half as reliable, slower, and costs twice as much if not more. Oh but at least the interior is fancy! Will sure make the difference when its sitting at the shop.
I can't wait to hear Clarkson's review of the new mid-engine Corvette. I hope he drives one on his new show. I really miss the old crew on Top Gear. BBC made a colossal mistake. Just saying. We love the BBC in the US. Absolutely NO ONE beats the BBC for documentaries, but they broke Top Gear.
Now this, this was epic car review, his genius is just unmatched
I have a supercharged C6 M6 Grand Sport with nearly the same Hp as the ZR1 with the same internals, suspension, exhaust, and brakes and have no issues, though I must admit she requires a delicate touch. If you drive it like a Lotus Elise it's similar but the magnetic ride control makes it more civilized.
I'm going to have to say I'm not much of a Corvette fan or Chevy. Put the 2014 Corvette Stingray is a pretty damn nice car.
The only reason us Americans are a little upset about this episode is because the bbc and top gear are very biased when it comes to American cars vs European cars. They hate the American car before they even drive it. If you go back to when Jeremy drove the ZR1 in america he loved it.
"And in the corners, it's a complete madman!" No Jeremy, you just can't handle it.
He "handles" cars like this for a living. If he can't, the chances of anybody who buys it being able to handle it are fairly slim aswell.
Todor Iteff The way Jeremy drives and talks about the ZR1 in this video almost proves your comment false. If I had not seen Mr. Clarkson drive other cars - like the Aventador - with amazing precision for an old man, I would have probably said "bullshit" to your reply.
He just drifts the Corvette on every corner like a madman (which the ZR1 isn't, it's just him.) If the ZR1 was driven properly, than it would have ate that Audi for lunch. Straight line or corners, no doubt.
Besides, it's usually the average buyers who handle the ZR1 better than the journalists anyway...
Anyway, I'm sure people would still buy it, despite everything he said. However, it will be as a silly, 'have fun and powerslide' car, unlike the R8 which is thought of as a precision driving instrument. It's not the car's fault nor is it Jeremy's (well mostly), but it's the fault of the general public thinking of American cars as silly, non-sensible (is that even a word) vehicles.
Todor Iteff Well, I guess I can't argue with you there, haha.
Another thing is that the ZR1 has almost as much torque as horsepower. As you'll notice, most European supercars are naturally aspirated with 600-700hp but only 500 or so lbs. feet of torque. Many of America's top dollar cars, like the ZR1, SRT Viper, and GT500 make, for a lack of better words, bitchin' torque that can break traction on any wheels if throttled hard.
Boy I love watching this in HD. Now if only I could watch the show in HD.
Love both... Cause they are fantastic in awesome
different moods.
Well the zr1 just set a new world record this older model with Michelins new tires it knocked off loke 8 seconds on the Nurburgring. It’s an animal and that’s what it takes is a highly skilled driver to show it’s true colours. That short circuit track wasn’t a good track for the vette.
The corvette ZR1 has great handling. otherwise it wouldn't have done a 7:19.63 around the nurburgring. While the R8 on the other hand did a time of 7:44.0. They're both quick cars but the corvette handles much better.
When u have no experience and it’s your first time 1:24
Jeremy CRACKS ME UP !!! Love Top Gear and this episode
Mitchell Ficken this didn’t age well
"I have got ONE HUNNNDRED & TWENTY MORE HORSEPOWERS" 🤣🤣
Nurburgring time official manufacture test
Viper ACR 7:12:13
Corvette ZR1 7:19.63
The only problem I have with the Corvette is that (at least where I live) they are everywhere. Come summertime and I can't go a day without seeing at least one. I prefer something just a little different.
1:28 Jeremy dropping the value of the Audi by half.
“R8 V10 for sale, 520 hp Lambo V10, great to drive! Interior may have coronavirus on it though”
Or alternatively, "R8 V10 Spyder. X miles, y condition. Licked by Jeremy Clarkson. £1,000,000.00"
I came back to this video coz I bit into a chicken and said ‘THIS THING IS PHENOMENAL!’ And it reminded of jezza talking about the R8! God I love top gear!
The only time you can use the ZR1's full power is when you're in the pub, bragging about your latest ' set of wheels '.
To correct you the C6 ZR1's lap time is 7:19, and its a standard production car, just a different variant like the R8 has the V8 variant and the V10.
Audi R8! all the f.c.i.g way :D
When can we watch these again today! Each of these videos is a total masterpiece! I know what Nor means, Zed O6 makes sense to me also! I will always love all these videos!
This is odd considering in almost every major automobile publication,corvette zr1s and zo6s trump r8's and the like in lap times.And the lesser powered zo6 handles better than the zr1,just look up lap time comparisons in your favorite automag.Numbers never lie.
@5:37 and NOPE! Back to my Lego box-for that solid feeling!
American Cars have the reputation they have because they were too busy building terrible cars back in the day and laughing at the Japanese. IMO American cars now-a-days maybe based on older models but are much better quality than before and provide better 'bang for buck.' as they say.
It's prudent to remember though that everything is cheaper in America though, it's a difference in the market not because of engineering necessarily. The ZR1 is a fine machine and I would love to have one. Europe still makes the FASTEST cars but there are still great American cars.
Only in the name, but all the platforms are very modern.
In America we don't want the "Fastest" car we like loud fun cars and that's why we have the Muscle car. America's taste in vehicle is much different than the rest of the world's, I'd take my upgraded 1980 Z28 over a Lamborghini any day.
Synister Mayhem
over a Lambo? lol u crazy ;)
***** No I'm not crazy, I prefer Muscle cars, they look great, they're cheap, all Americans love them, they're easy to work on, and you can make them how ever you want. Lamborghini's are not impressive in my opinion, I hate how they sound, I hear that they have bad handling, and they don't look to great. However, I do like Maserati, Ferrari, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Aston Martin, and others, but I do prefer American Muscle cars. They are built to make your own for not even close to half the price of a Lamborghini or Ferrari. Like I said, I don't hate European cars, I just dislike Lamborghini's and prefer my type of cars over others. I do pretty much hate Japanese cars though lol.
whatever
The original 3 Amegos on BBC , TOP GEAR was the very best. I've been watching these 3 guys most of my adult life and laugh almost every day at some point about something they did to one another for decades. Long live Captain Slow !!!!!!! Buffering, Buffering!!!!!!!
thanks for the advice.. now hand me the audi!
Love how jeremy low key prefers the corvette at the end
Maybe if you don't floor it around the turns it wouldn't slide so much. The 2012 ZR1 lapped Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca in 1:33:70, the 2012 R8 GT did it in 1:36:39, and the 2014 R8 V-10 Plus did it in 1:38:70. All with the same driver, Randy Pobst. I like Jeremy Clarkson, but sometimes he says stupid shit.
I have driven both the ZR1 and a turbo v8 R8. The ZR1 is faster, like Ferrari fast. And it's cheap. BUT if you look past that it's ride is horrible and in the real world it's slower. The Audi is the better car because it has more accesable performance more of the time for the regular driver.
Couldn't have said it better myself. my reply would have had the words like "it's shit, handles like a tug boat", i like yours better. It's diplomatic lol
I was comparing them on track because they compared them on track. For this comparison street performance is useless, and I have a feeling that if you gave the ZR1 AWD its performance would be just as accessible. The Zr1 is more of a drivers car, you need to actually be good at driving to get more out of it. It doesn't hold your hand as much as as AWD system will. So yeah I would agree the R8 is better for mediocre drivers with a lot of money. Its not better, just better at some things.
and thats exactly why the zr1 is way more fun. its an RWD Supercar and acts like one, itll reward or punish you based on how well you can drive
Why was the Gallardo’s 5.2-litre V10 detuned so that it could be used in the R8 V10, making 518bhp instead of the Gallardo’s 552bhp?
no, the Audi AG owned Lamborghini in 1998,not VW
The C6 series Corvette: Top Gear UK's favorite car they love to hate to love.
My favorite car has always been Corvette
The Nurburgring times tend to bear out your contention.
But let's not forget that the ZR1 (more properly, the Corvette C6 ZR1) is also a high-performance version of the CR Corvette.
The C6 ZR1 has the heavily-modified LS9 engine (638 hp/604 ft.lb torque) - the most powerful Corvette engine yet. It has a 6th generation Eaton TVS R2300 roots 4-lobe supercharger, with intercoolers from Behr (of Germany). The C6 ZR1 is light-weight, with an upgraded transmission and an improved differential.
Like ZR1..
lets be honest. everyone who knows mid-thousands GM interior will all line up and laugh together about it falling apart for how accurate it is lol
yes the R8 :-)
V10
=) =)
This r8 looks so much better than the new one.
1:29 LOL!
I've had a shop in LA for 15 years and have been a mechanic for 30. Audi is the worst, least dependable or reliable brand in existence. Rovers are second, and Jaguar is third. And any OHV engine will always be more reliable than a comparable OHC engine. Less moving parts.
"much too wide"
both cars are 1930mm wide.
COOL Corvette ZR1 vs Audi R8 | Now in Full HD | Top Gear | Series 14 | BBC
I normally don't argue with Jeremy's conclusions about some things. But for this comparison, he was just stupid. The Audi R8 is ALL WHEEL DRIVE, so of course it will be less apt to produce tire smoking wheel spin in the corners like the Vette. But for arguments sake, he should have stuck the Stig in the Vette, and him in the Audi, and I am willing to bet a TENNER that the Vette would have trounced the Audi 3 ways from Sunday because of someone at the wheel who has a bit of racing pedigree in their bloodstream.
Mark Brooks is there such a thing as a REGULAR R8?? lol
We are talking about a very pretty car here with a LOT of engineering behind it. Just like the quite timeless Bugatti Veyron.. it's a cat that has stood the world on its ear for automotive engineering. Much like the Hennessy Venom GT.
+Ed H i know right.. im like yeah maybe if you stop drifting it dude.. the zr1 broke many track records in its day..
+Ed H How has the Venom GT stood the world by its ear? Basically tuner car.
+Somethingafw the fact that a guy in Texas was able put two corvette engines together and make it road legal, then dish out the fastest car on earth sounds impressive to me
Colds It's a company not just some guy from Texas. So if I would purchase 3 Lotus chassis and put 3 overtuned LS motor in it and blast it on a straight runway beat the current WR would you say that I made the fastest production vehicle?
It's a crime that more of the V10 R8s weren't ordered with the manual.
100 000 k ? Buy E30 swap S54 and be happy ever.
***** S54 is 6 cyl , S60 is v8
E30 have 6cyl from factory. No V8 has bean in e30 from factory not even from alpina or hartge or ac shnicer.
***** Does any E30 come with v8 in it from factory ?
I love the sound of that V10. It sounds amazing. The R8 is unbelievably brilliant, but, I'd have the Corvette. The Corvette is just so much more exciting. I can't seem to work out the times-1 min 20.4 for the Corvette and 1 min 21.6 for the Audi. I reckon the Audi could have got around the track in approximately 1 min 20. I would expect the Corvette to get around the track in approximately 1 min 21 seconds at best.
Corvette all the way baby.
all the way into the wall? why :)
I like the original R8 than the current one(the looks)
yes it is a v10 taken from lamborghini (a part of the Audi Group)
Thats true as well.
But the ZR1 as the one shown in the video is still faster than any everyday production ferrari or lamborghini.
But thank you for agreeing with me.. :) I thought no-one would. :)
I do hope everyone knows that the corvette zr1 has the number 12 spot on on the nurburgring and is a lot faster around than the r8
youre totally wrong :D a r8 won the race :D
American always in in straight line race that all it could do LOL
243kingfrank Did you not read what he said? The Corvette ZR1 C6 is 6 full seconds fast then the Audi R8.
Proof (via wikipedia )
7:38 Corvette C6 ZR1
7:44 Audi R8 V10
Alias I’m pretty sure the ZR1 did it in 7:12
Yes, you are all right. ZR1 is faster in every way. But that will NEVER mean that it is better car. There is not always speed key factor to buy a car.
But it is a better car
Jeremy should have compared the Ford GT to the Audi R8 since they're both mid-engined.
hahaha, that was priceless when he activate the sport monde on the audi :D
1:28 that's disgusting.
*mmmmmmmmmmmm nice carr*
like you
Here you can actually see Jeremy is actually a really good driver 😁👏👏👌👌👌
Last time I check the Brits would be speaking German if not for the US winning wars convincingly.
You mean Russian
Last time I checked, Britain and Russia was doing the fighting. You didn't jump in until mid war.
True but America was fighting the war on 3 different continents with half of our men/resources in Japan and were still able to turn the tide in Europe.
I am by no means discrediting the Soviets but they more then had their hands full when America got involved.
Russia won the war.
5:27 remember who saved you and the Soviets during WWII, even before we joined you two were living off our supplies
It's hard to win against someone whose only goal isn't to win but never lose. If any other western army fought in Vietnam (looking at you France) they would've never won either.
You all fought the wrong enemy. Hitler was no ally, but siding with the USSR has over the course of the last 80 years caused so much trouble for the west.