So, we're gonna look at a grapple team. Rune knight is absolutely necessary for this build. So, let's get started building ourselves a wizard! Classic Treantmonk lol
Dragging someone through someone else's Spike Growth not ending Sanctuary is essentially the end of Batman Begins logic, hehe: "I won't kill you... but I don't have to save you"
I mean only the god of pedantry would allow their Sanctuary to be exploited as such, because quite evidently pushing someone in front of a speeding train is just as much 1st degree murder as shooting them in the face.
@@kendrajade6688 Do you think a crashing train is something Ra's al Ghul couldn't escape from? He accepted that he was beaten and accepted death. He could have escaped if he actually wanted.
You know what's difficult? Getting your players to use cool tactics like this. You know what's fun? Using fun tactics against your players. Thanks Treantmonk!
This is awesome, let us do more combo tactics builds please. This can be a brand new frontier for your channel and set you even more apart from the other dnd character building channels.
For grappling, you indeed use your own movement speed; forced movement breaks the grapple if it throws you out of range of your grapple target. This is why the Shove action is better than just trying to break the grapple as you have multiple attemps if you have multiple attacks.
@@MeemBeen Let's hope I manage to remember that next time i'm caught up in some kraken tentacles (or other 10ft+ grapples) and catch a thunderwave in the face ;P
@@MeemBeen Where does it say that any forced movement breaks the grapple? The relevant rule under the grappled condition - which is covered in the video around the 5:50 mark - states the following: "The condition [grappled] also ends if an Effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the Grappler or Grappling Effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the Thunderwave spell." Most PCs who aren't under the effects of any special enhancements will have a reach of 5ft. A Kraken's tentacle has a reach of 30 feet (as specified in its stat block). So "any forced movement" doesn't cut it. The rules are completely clear on this. Your forced movement effect needs to move the grappled creature beyond the reach of the grappler or grappling effect. That distance might be 5 feet. It could be 30 feet. It depends.
@@bacchus8081 Pretty sure what MeemBeen said is incorrect. To break a grapple with forced movement, the forced movement effect needs to move the grappled creature outside of the reach of the grappler or grappling effect.
Honestly I think the biggest buff you could give a barbarian grappler is allow them to grapple enemies two sizes larger. That would allow it keep up with a rune knight.
really look forward to more optimized tactical party builds! it's always great when you give a combat/situation example...my favorite part of your videos! 😎
As an alternative to Fortune's Favor, you could consider Silvery Barbs - when the enemy succeeds on his ability check (for grapple) force a reroll. Still setting specific but at least it isn't Dunemancy so has advantages.
And Silvery Barbs is just really good, anyways. You can also give the Rune Knight advantage on their roll, but they're usually going to have advantage, anyways.
And this is why you never run just a single enemy in an empty field. There should be at least two (preferably three or four) enemies, and something in the terrain to change how it plays.
Grapple+Drag is one of the things I LOVE in my back pocket with a Lizardfolk. If there's water, grab something, drag it in, and just hold on for a few rounds. It drowns, you either leave it or finish it, you climb out, and repeat. Even if you lose the grapple once you're in the drink, you have a swim speed and they don't. I guess it'd also work with Tortles, Warforged, or any of the water breathing or breathless races. Another special mention to Dhampir, which can drag people up walls, since they don't need their hands to climb, if I remember correctly. And, if your DM still hasn't banned flying races... today you will remind them that they should.
This was a great Video. I hope you like to do some more of this small team combinations. I love when players work together like this. Most optimisation guides just focus on one PC in a Vacuum. It's much more fun if players work together. It's a Team-Game after all. And the best thing in a team like this all members are needed. So no one is left out.
What's so good about these characters is that outside this tactics they still have plenty of room to be effective, this party is not an one trick pony.
Playing in a campaign with magic resistance and resistance to magic damage flying around left right and center. Our party has naturally formed into a 'buff the fighter and barbarian' party. Life finds a way
My favorite combo required two level 3 characters and an uncommon item. Together, we defeated a young black dragon. I played as a druidbarian. I 'shaped into a giant spider, and my warlock buddy put the Saddle of the Cavalier on me, then hopped aboard. We managed to catch the dragon in it's cave, and, lucky us, it was still too young to have made it a lair. I raged and recklessly attacked the dragon, leaping onto it's back as warlock hexed it's strength checks. It turned it's head and bit me, which hurt a little, but put it's head into the reach of my many limbs. I grappled onto it's face with advantage from raging, and its hex-based disadvantage kept it from successfully disengaging. It tried again to fling me off, but my rear legs were anchored tightly, hooked behind it's wings. I then used my web attack from point blank range, and DM cooly ruled that I could use the webbing to wrap the dragons head to its own neck, all doubled over. The dragon finally used its breath attack, even though it was not immune to its own acid. As a barb, I easily could've evaded the main brunt of the damage, but instead of surrendering my grapple, I just arched my abdomen to move my warlock, who also saved, fully out of the blast's path. The acid burned away my webbing, but I rolled a 6 and it recharged on my next turn, so I repeated my previous tactic. The young dragon's breath did not recharge, he was unable to pull himself from my sticky grapple, and he was left helpless. From this point forward, I continued to grapple and wrap the dragon until I had it fully restrained. During that time, the dragon tail whipped me a couple times and the warlock fired a steady stream of eldritch blasts into it. Once cocooned, I stopped using my action to upgrade my grapple and started pumping my paralysis poison into him. (It makes him unconscious and paralyzed instead of dead when dropped to 0.) I never lost my wildshape and warlock never lost his concentration. Had either of those failed, we would've been in real trouble. As it was, we ended up having a really cool RP session with a captured dragon and ended up making a new, albeit evil, friend that day.
I interpret when you move as choosing to move. I would include harengon leap and being granted an extra move by another player, but not being moved (in the video this is "when you ARE moved"). I think its pretty clean.
I love this teamwork build video! One of the problems with individual optimization is that it can mechanically ruin a party dynamic. But if every party member is contributing to the optimization and everyone can take credit, then everyone has fun!
What might be even better than a Centaur is a Tabaxi. When you activate Kitty Speed it doubles your current movement - at 30+10x2/2, your 40 speed becomes 80 speed. With movement, Haste Dash, and Action Surge Dash, that's 240 feet of movement vs the Centaur's 150 ft for an equivalent amount of resources. After Kitty Speed runs out you'll have 40 speed again. Assuming your action is spent Shoving or Re-grappling you'll have 80ft on turns two and onward compared to the Centaur's 100ft. The centaur does more on subsequent turns, but it still takes them 5 more turns to catch up to you in terms of movement expended. (4 more turns if you can use your action to grapple instead of shoving or re-grappling; they catch up on turn 3.) Because a Tabaxi can recharge Kitty Speed by simply taking a turn without moving, this can be used in every combat and even multiple times a combat if you're lucky. Tabaxi Kitty Speed is the ultimate meat grinder tactic.
I fucking love team synergy like this. Though I can’t help but notice this tactic works PB times per long rest and once per shortrest. Grappling is strong outside of spike dragging and this was a great example of it shredding a single target. Hopefully this gets people’s noggins jogging on more creative combat tactics.
I also came up with a similar combo awhile ago except only two players, moon druid + any haste caster. Basically you would cast spike growth and wild shape into a large / huge creature, and have haste one you. This combo seems way more reliable though, considering concentration. Also the rules aren't totally clear on whether you can grapple creatures in certain animal forms.
Hey there treantmonk, great video, and such a fun tactic! In my party, we have an str EK with an animated shield, a warlock, a gloom stalker ranger and a shepherd druid. We we're discussing the tactics for our next session and realized that, since we knew we we're going to face an spellcaster BBEG, the druid could activate bear totem while the warlock would cast hex on the target. After that, the EK could animate the shield, grapple and shove the enemy prone, while the gloomstalker would cast silence and come close to help the EK end the target. We applied it in the next session and it was rly effective. The druid summons would have joined to have some fun with the prone BBEG, but it was the end of a very long dungeon and we we're really low on resources.
This video was one of the most enjoyable ones I’ve seen from your channel! Each time you talked about something you included in the combo I would mentally guess “wait so that thing goes there to make such? No way, that’s so clever!” and then you’d proceed to reveal that was exactly the case
@Treantmonk's Temple Encumbrance has been brought up. A fire giant is suppose to weight 7,000lbs, and you can only get to 4,320 lbs on your drag with an enlarge spell. Would take 4 doubling effects: Enlarge + Enhance Ability ( two concentration spells) + Giant's Might + Equine Build (or similar) to get to 8,640lbs, 9,600lbs with 20 Str. But that's only your max drag, double your max carry, dragging above your max carry puts your speed to 5ft. So Under normal circumstances, you'd struggle to drag anything over 1,080 - 1,200lbs by the RAW and applying encumbrance to combat.
Rules for encumbrance are a bit over-tuned for medium and smaller creatures and absurdly weak for large and larger. A terrasque should be able to throw a tank over but it can’t even come close.
I find some satisfaction in that I started to build the same kind of Rune Knight in my head as soon as you mentioned Spike Growth. The Temple has clearly taught me well. ~
Love the combo and idea. You have Thing1 and Thing2 riding a centaur around the countryside. They stop off at towns and villages taking care of problem giants. Amazing.
What I love the most about this is the visual demonstration. Even for theatre of the mind players, the various feats, spells and abilities stacking on display help weave it all together. Eh, I'm a visual learner.
By the RAW, the Fire Giant itself could only drag 3,000lbs, less than half it's purported weight, and that would reduce it's speed to 5 by RAW. It could carry only
An example I’m more familiar with is “butt-naked halfling with a spear on a vulture”. Iirc the total weight of the halfling is 43lbs. Vulture has a strength of 7 and is medium. Vulture carry weight is 105lbs. Kind of the opposite problem you have.
@@dustinsmith2021 ya their system doesn't handle weights outside the normal ranges for PC size and strength very well. Partly the strength for larger sized creatures in reality should be super high, breaking other mechanics, and small creature's strength should be lower.
@@SpiderWaffle Tiny 1xstr Small 5xstr Medium 10xstr Large 40xstr Huge 160xstr Gargantuan 640xstr Weight could also be done better with cubes and varying modifiers. I’m not a mathematical genius (I failed algebra twice) so bare with me. Y(X)(str) Y is the variable size category modifier and X the number of cubes a size category occupies and Str is strength score. The fallowing are the Y value by size category and the number of cubes each size occupies: Medium 10(1) Large 10(8) Huge 15(27) Gargantuan 20(64) Take one of the values and multiply by a strength score and that is carry weight. A gargantuan creature now carries 25,600 lbs. about the weight of a large semi truck. Medium sized creatures take a hit, but it’s also a bit more realistic and I like that. I didn’t worry about small and tiny creatures, but I’d suggest maybe y(x)(str)/2 for small and y(x)(str)/4 for tiny.
Might want to take silence on the Wizard (or another party member if you have a fourth player) so you can prevent misty step/dimension door/other magical escapes from more magically inclined enemies
With a 3 level caster dip, the grappler can also stack the new fizban spell, ashardalon's stride for another 20(40 with haste) feet movement speed, at some point get mobile feat for an extra 10(20 w/ haste) move speed and go into monk for more movement bonuses. You will lose sanctuary if you use ashardalon's though
Grapple Member #4 should be a Goblin Monster Hunter Ranger, for access to Pass Without Trace, and (at higher levels) to foil a teleport or spell. Combined with the Wizard's Counterspell, it should help shut down teleportation to escape the bramble patch. Member #5 could be a Twilight Cleric to upcast Bless for the fighter and the other party members for their stealth roll, as well as the Twilight Sanctuary for temp hp, and at higher levels a Death Ward just incase.
Advanced Cheesegrating Tactics Some more considerations: -The Chronurgist can easily slot Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern for group fights. Spike Growth in itself is already fantastic at dealing with loads of small enemies. -Eldritch Blast combined with Repelling Blast is still on the table if the Rune Knight somehow ended up out of position. -Both casters can further have more chance manipulation using Silvery Barbs. Doing so also lets the RK grapple with advantage while not using Giant's Might. -There's still a fourth character available to most parties! Paladins can Bless and use their Aura to further boost the party's saving throws.
For the grappler I would consider the races: Simic Hybrid, Thri-kreen(UA), Elf (Wood; Aereni) from Wayfinder's Guide to Ebberon, Tabaxi, or Aarakocra. Simic Hybrid, and Thri-kreen get two extra arms that can grapple one more creature each. Aarakocro has 50ft fly + works with long strider, can fly over spike growth to reach enemies, just can't wear medium or heavy armor. Tabaxi movement double stacks extremely well with other doubling effects, should burst down anything the turn you use it. The two Aereni races get an expertise, I think the only two races that can do that, the woodelf one gets 35ft speed, then you can get a different feat or skill bonus if you can start with higher (or lower) Strength depending how character is created, none of the other feats for +1 Str would be that great unfortunately. Heavy Armor Master, Tavern Brawler 😕
I'm pretty sure that a creature can't benefit from the dodge action if their speed is set to zero. So monks and other dodgy classes be aware of grapple enemies on the battlefield.
A naked male fire giant weighs about 3.5 tons, more with weapons and armor. That is far beyond what a character can move. You can grab a giant, but you simply are not strong enough to drag him/her. I know a Jujitsu blackbelt who was sucker-punched by a drunk while he was playing pinball. Jim instinctively blocked the punch, joint-locked the drunk, and frog marched him out of the bar. Is that how you imagine this working? Your bruiser grappler joint-locks a giant and marches him at running speed through a briar patch? Milo was a legendary Greek strong man who carried a bull calf on his shoulders every day until the bull was full-grown - weighing between a half-ton and a ton - he famously WALKED into the Olympic stadium with the bull on his shoulders. That was a nearly impossible feat. In 5e, the carrying capacity at 20 strength is only 300 pounds. If you tried this in my game, I might let you successfully grapple, but you would be immobile until you could explain why you can drag 23 times your carrying capacity. I might consider it a 'nearly impossible' feat and require an athletics check of 30 every round to keep moving if I felt generous.
I read the rule as when you move by any movement that is instigated by you and powered by you. So, leaps absolutely, teleports no luck, mounts nope. Although, I want a class feat that allows you to maintain grapples while mounted so you can drag people across the battlefield from the back of your war horse... If the other creature is moved without your input, that's what breaks the grapple by distance, and they don't care about the source.
I help a friend to simulate battles before he throws challenging encounters on his players. In one day all his BBEGs were obliterated by a wild magic barbarian and a fathomless warlock with bigby's hand (lvl 12 if I remember correctly). Barb had advantage in initiatives and always started before the BBEGs. Grapple before they could fly was essential, and extra movement because of instinctive pounce was also relevant. In later turns, the barb had 1d3 extra in the grappling checks which was by chance just enough to keep opponent prone and grappled. Bigby's hand also grappled later and barb released grapple to use it's great weapon master with advantage together with the fighter with action surge. Warlock spent its other pact slots to counterspell everything and the battle was quickly over. I really like grappling in high tier 2 and tier 3 given the higher mobility of the monsters and trickier combats. My friend started constantly complaining how monsters miss proficiency in athletics and how easily some combats are solved with grappling. Something that we normally don't use in our own campaigns btw.
Never understood grapple that well until now. Pretty sure I’ve only used it once - to grapple a member of my own party lol. The Fey Bard had some sort of home brew charm effect any time someone near her attacked any plant-type monster so I (the Barbarian) always have to grapple her for a few rounds any time we fight awakened plants grrr
Fun team build to explore. Looks boring to play, though, at least after 5 stomping battles. A good DM might come up with interesting challenges, but yeah. The real value of this video is how it shows how to conceptualize, and then exectute that concept. I.e. Moving in spike growth hurts. Let's find a way to force enemies to move in it. This method can be used for any party: - We have good ranged attacks. Let's find a way to keep enemies at a distance. - We have good area effects. Let's force our opponents together, and keep them there, in our death zone. - etc
With "moving a grappled creature", if you used your mount I would apply the same rules but then use the mounts size. So medium creatures on large horses can move small creatures unimpeded while medium creatures on their own need a tiny for that. I wouldn't count forced movement as "you move" however, otherwise effects like thunderwave wouldn't be highlighted as the exception. I actually had a rune knight grappler planned to play in the near future. I was thinking of using the fire rune for an extra bit of grappling and be a bugbear to keep the enemy out of reach. But you gave me some food for thought.
A composition like this has long been my fantasy power lineup. Spike growth, (SG) is the best spell in the game in imho, besides maybe Silvery Barbs now. With more party members would add in a Druid for more AoE debuffs like Plant Growth or summons to drag through SG (get 8 poison frogs causing disadvantage on all checks to everything they touch if at all possible 😃) and a 2nd option for SG. The Sorlock also can just out DPS virtually any build with agonizing blast, repelling blast w/ SG. Crawford has also said he have a mount move at half their speed and allow you drag grappled things while mounted. Scout Rouge and Swords Bard also have some great ways to do more movement. (Psionic fighter can double walking speed but takes 7 levels, and forgoes Runeknight)
Fire Giant: *grapples you back* Rune Knight: oh no or Fire Giant: *holds action to throw rock on the Daolock* DaoLock: oh no Cool build & tactic, kind of a one trick pony. True, it's probably the best build/combo for dragging someone through Spike Growth.
The Fire Giant is going to have a hard time grappling the Rune Knight for the same reasons the Rune Knight is likely to be able to grapple the Fire Giant. Should the giant get lucky, then the escape check shouldn't be hard to succeed on. Should the giant ready an action, the Daolock needs to just stay hidden.
Moon druid can do something similar just not as effective. Cast spike growth turn into bear, bears are okay grapplers. Just not as defensive or as fast. Concentration is key. Also your death squad is awesome unless the fire giants minion can cast dispell magic. Anyway, like it a lot. Great video.
I tried to accomplish a similar combination of abilities in a single character. That build doesn't really "finish" until level 12 but it's unlikely you'll need to grapple a gargantuan creature earlier than that, I think. I used a winged tiefling to solve the flying enemy issue and got to level 3 in Sorcerer to grab Enlarge/Reduce. Ideally, another member of my party could cast Haste on me but it's not absolutely necessary because I am learning Expeditious Retreat as a Sorcerer. I skipped Spike Growth in favor of just flying into the sky and either shoving the enemy prone or stop flying to fall and land on top of the enemy. If someone else in the party can cast Spike Growth, it would obviously deal nice damage. It's more of a tank build than a damage build but seems like a lot of fun. Another side bonus is if the other party members are behind the Rune Knight, they benefit from half cover against ranged damage so there's some nice support there as well.
A pre-warning before casting sanctuary: From Jeremy Crawford: "Grappling/shoving an enemy does end the sanctuary spell on you, since you have made an attack."
This unusually cheesy and optimistic but I'd love to see this in in theory or just a combat oneshot. It sounds hillarious to try to grapple with a gargantuan on lvl 5 and wrestle with the gods.
I was trying to find spells like spike growth that clearly don't work with the common "When the creature FIRST enters the area or start a turn inside" text, but couldn't find one. I was going to say that this combo is weaker in a group that puts the circle in circle form. But doen't matter how you put the circle, you can find a spot where it will have 2 paralel squares and you can just go up-down or left-right
If you are taking 2 levels of Rogue on the fighter, you could skip the skill expert feat because you can choose to get expertise in athletics at Rogue level 1. That would allow you to take an ASI or different feat at fighter 4.
I play an Fallen Aasimar Rune Knight, but reflavored the class that the celestial source of his heritage is an empyrean (also took on lvl 4 Skill Expert and on Lvl 6 Tavern Brawler - both with a +1 Str increase). It takes a bit of setup, but the results speak for themselves. Personally I kept him without multiclass and with Unarmed Fighting Style. It is pretty fun playing him.
42:15 You can dash before you grapple to get the full addition of your speed to your movement, but I think that dash bonus is supposed to be reduced when your speed is reduced by the drag. I think it'd be easier to understand if dragging required you to expend twice the number of ft you would otherwise need to expend to move 1ft, instead of manipulating your speed.
@@SpiderWaffle RAW, enlarge does not increase strength. It gives an increase in damage of 1d4. What strength should you use for an enlarged centaur? While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying Capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet. (RAW, PHB p 176 in my edition)
@@shishkabobby Interesting, this might not work for the Fire Giant if it's weight is 7,000lbs: 1. I'm not sure if encumbrance rules were meant to apply to grapple drags during combat. 2. You can actually get to 8640lbs but it would take enlarge/reduce and enhance ability on you. On that same page (PHB 176) you 2x your limits for every size larger beyond medium. Normally you can drag 30*Str. Giant's Might + enlarge is 2 sizes larger, and Centaur's Equine Build and enhance ability state: "You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push or drag." so *2^4 or 16, 30*18*16= 8640lbs. However, as you point out your speed is only 5ft if you go above 15*Str, half of these calculations, so this tactic just wouldn't work very well on really heavy things with these rules, I'm not sure if you can get to 8,000lbs with any other special doubling mechanic, you're one short even with these two concentration spells.
My first 5E was with a new group: the experienced DM gave us xp to level 3, and the fighter was an internet homebrew luchador subclass. I was the lone spellcaster, a conjurer when chronurgy ans runeknight didn't exist. It was alright using flaming spheres, and cloud of daggers at first but it really came online at level 5. We had no source of spike growth or sanctuary, but fly kept the fighter safe from most enemies while they dispatched one. Grappling is a fun mechanic.
The main issue here is the action set-up so unless you can get quicken spell that's a problem. Chronurgy can essentially get you the same thing with a reaction if you need it, so it doesn't interefere with setting up haste.
I’ve built a simic hybrid beast barbarian using the grappling appendage and the tail while raging to be able to grapple up to 5 characters at once which has been incredible for locking down enemies especially groups of 3-4 people
Basically the only thing that messes this up is some sort of teleportation ability. I'd add one thing: The Rune Knight should learn Expeditious Retreat (might be something to get at level 6 via a feat or dip). This allows the RK to weaponize their bonus action (which they currently aren't using) with another dash action and another 50 damage. Instead of Centaur, you could go with Tabaxi to increase your nova damage.
That's true, though I wouldn't expect a lot of that at level 5. What would really help with that is if someone picked up Fog Cloud as most monster teleports require line of sight.
This definitely would not make this combo more powerful, but it may possibly give more options away from spike growth and more tactics against multiple enemies - maybe consider the simic hybrid to have the capacity to grapple up to 4 creatures. Then the wizard could also be abjuration to allow them to bombard the cluster. Finally, you could consider the unarmed fighting style with the fighter to allow them to be headbutting someone for 1d8+str on each attack once they have 4 creatures grappled. Not saying this is without flaws - but could be a fun grappling PC
Definitely started building a rune knight last week for a future adventure. 1 level in Divine soul sorcerer to make up for weak mental saving throws. Hoping that future team could make out for a fun death squad ensemble.
Maybe we should find a way to have the silence spell in the area of the enemy too? So we don't have to listen the screams.....oh, and avoid most teleportations aswell :p
With grappling I had imagined that you would occupy the same square(s) as the creature you are grappling. (Admittedly in our group we don't use it much, except maybe to interrogate the last enemy.) If you consider one human grappling another (IRL), it kind of makes sense that they're very close (in the 'same space'). The grappler (IRL) wouldn't really be able to drag the grapplee (inventing a word?) through some kind of effect while also not (at least partially) suffering the same effect. I guess RAW the grappler and grapplee do not occupy different squares after a successful grapple. But maybe considering RAI, I'm not sure the tactic presented in the video would fly (and would it be fun after 3 combats?). But, I do thoroughly enjoy the theory-crafting. Nice video!
Nothing in the rules specific that they occupy the same square at any point. And if we think of "IRL", you would not por your hands on the spike, just drag the enemy's back there. Inside you're grappling someone into a moonbean spell, you don't need to put your hands in the burning light, you stop then when your target starts to scream.
Treant, you missed the best member of this squad: Lore Bard! Bardic Inspiration to buff your Athletics and Cutting Words to debuff the enemy's Athletics / Acrobatics and far more uses that Chronal Shift. Sadly Bard doesn't get the best spells to combo, but with Tasha's they do get Enlarge Reduce, Heroism (to prevent your Rune Knight getting stuck Frightened of the enemies and unable to grapple them), Enhance Ability for when the Rune Knight doesn't want to use their Giant's might, and Silence!!! (to keep a grappled mage from Misty Stepping out of there or casting AoE spells to hit the casters). With an Instrument of the Bards they will have Levitate & Fly once per day to deal with flying enemies (or use Hideous Laughter to make them fall out of the sky), and take Haste with your 6th level Magical Secrets. Then add in a Starry Druid as the third member for Spike Growth, Wall of Thorns and other AoE concentration spells (Moonbeam, Wall of Fire, Malestrom, Flaming Sphere). Plus at 6th level they get Cosmic Omen which is another few emergency buffs / debuffs to your or the enemy's grapple checks, and with Dragon Constellation you'll almost never lose concentration. They also have several options to force flying creatures down onto the ground for the grappler. Importantly, several of the higher level spells also block line of sight - e.g. Wall of Fire, or Wall of Thorns - which means even without shoving the enemy prone they have DA on attacks unless they have blindsight, plus limits the options for Mages to try to escape. It takes 1 extra level to fully come online (6th vs 5th) but it scales much better since Druid continues to get more and more spells that synergize with a Grappler that can simultaneously damage and debuff enemies so the grappler can leave one target trapped inside say a Malestrom or Whirlwind or floating 100ft up in an area of Reverse Gravity while they go and grappling a second target. Plus this team has far more flexibility since the Druid has more options to do decent damage on movement simply into an area rather than by the dragged through the area.
Im gonna make an NPC adventuring group that will come across the players with this strategy. They'll claim that they are Dragonhunters called the Dragonwrestlers and fight the party if they get into their way :D
You don't need to limit the grappler to Rune Knight, you can just use any race that has Powerful Build. It won't let you grapple gargantuan creatures, but with the same setup you can drag medium creatures at full speed.
Another focused team concept I like is taking a action surged or quicken spelled grave domain cleric to hold person/ path to the grave vulnerability then have a pallylock or rogue/pally multi class with an melee cantrip nova a target. You just take the hold action to make the attack with the pally as a reaction and f the initiative is a bit off. Also I believe you can use your bonus action if it doesn’t need you to use your action first? So the cleric with quicken spell hold person and then use their reaction to use path to the grave when the paladin move up to trick the target… not exactly sure on this last part.
If the giant could escape, the safest place would be in the middle of the spike growth chucking rocks. But, even then, the daolock can just push it to the edge with eldritch blast, so the runeknight can continue the madness without venturing into the spike growth himself. Nice.
Well this has certainly given me some ideas for our party of a Chronurgist, a Ranger who uses Spike Growth as his signature spell, and a Vengeance Paladin who loves to grapple. Now, how can we get our Echo Knight archer in on the fun?
The "riding multiple phantom steed" exploit only really works if your DM allows you to fully utilize multiple movements per round; and I'm pretty sure that's not RAI.
41:43 My understanding of the grappling rules is that you can only substitute up to one attack with a grapple (i.e. can't use extra attack). I believe you could use your hasted action, but not your extra attack.
Would you ever do a brief overview of any subclasses of the more popular unofficial 5e supplements? Thinking of things like the Grim Hollow player's guide. I had trouble finding any informative reviews of the grim hollow player's guide, for example, and after purchasing was a bit hesitant to even suggest most of the subclasses to a DM as they seem fairly unbalanced. A brief overview before hand might have steered me towards a resource I would have more appreciated.
ב"ה With a moon druid instead of a dao warlock you both have a potential second grappler and you have access to pass without trace so you could surprise your opponent and make sure you act before the opponent act.
So, we're gonna look at a grapple team. Rune knight is absolutely necessary for this build. So, let's get started building ourselves a wizard!
Classic Treantmonk lol
Dragging someone through someone else's Spike Growth not ending Sanctuary is essentially the end of Batman Begins logic, hehe: "I won't kill you... but I don't have to save you"
Except the train crashing was an entirely third party compared to Batman. Here we have a guy actively dragging someone's ass on a cheese grater...
I mean only the god of pedantry would allow their Sanctuary to be exploited as such, because quite evidently pushing someone in front of a speeding train is just as much 1st degree murder as shooting them in the face.
@@ATinyWaffle "Entirely third party" here meaning the guy he gave the tank to and told to blow up the bridge?
@@kendrajade6688 Do you think a crashing train is something Ra's al Ghul couldn't escape from? He accepted that he was beaten and accepted death. He could have escaped if he actually wanted.
@@ATinyWaffle I mean, cool... if I shoot an arrow at someone I expect is able to dodge and they don't I still committed murder.
You know what's difficult? Getting your players to use cool tactics like this.
You know what's fun? Using fun tactics against your players.
Thanks Treantmonk!
DM: In this one shot, the Terrasque is an unstoppable force of nature!
Treantmonk: It's draggin' time! 🐉
This is awesome, let us do more combo tactics builds please. This can be a brand new frontier for your channel and set you even more apart from the other dnd character building channels.
For grappling, you indeed use your own movement speed; forced movement breaks the grapple if it throws you out of range of your grapple target. This is why the Shove action is better than just trying to break the grapple as you have multiple attemps if you have multiple attacks.
Actually the rule says *any* forced movement breaks the grapple. It doesn't specify that being moved "out of range" has to be part of it.
@@MeemBeen Let's hope I manage to remember that next time i'm caught up in some kraken tentacles (or other 10ft+ grapples) and catch a thunderwave in the face ;P
@@bacchus8081 this is why I almost always take the Telekinetic feat with grab-happy DMs. Free forced movement that can be willingly failed.
@@MeemBeen Where does it say that any forced movement breaks the grapple?
The relevant rule under the grappled condition - which is covered in the video around the 5:50 mark - states the following:
"The condition [grappled] also ends if an Effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the Grappler or Grappling Effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the Thunderwave spell."
Most PCs who aren't under the effects of any special enhancements will have a reach of 5ft. A Kraken's tentacle has a reach of 30 feet (as specified in its stat block).
So "any forced movement" doesn't cut it. The rules are completely clear on this. Your forced movement effect needs to move the grappled creature beyond the reach of the grappler or grappling effect. That distance might be 5 feet. It could be 30 feet. It depends.
@@bacchus8081 Pretty sure what MeemBeen said is incorrect. To break a grapple with forced movement, the forced movement effect needs to move the grappled creature outside of the reach of the grappler or grappling effect.
I am constantly tweaking a barbarian home brew subclass that specializes in shoving and grappling, very nice to have this video to come back to.
Honestly I think the biggest buff you could give a barbarian grappler is allow them to grapple enemies two sizes larger. That would allow it keep up with a rune knight.
really look forward to more optimized tactical party builds! it's always great when you give a combat/situation example...my favorite part of your videos! 😎
As an alternative to Fortune's Favor, you could consider Silvery Barbs - when the enemy succeeds on his ability check (for grapple) force a reroll. Still setting specific but at least it isn't Dunemancy so has advantages.
And Silvery Barbs is just really good, anyways. You can also give the Rune Knight advantage on their roll, but they're usually going to have advantage, anyways.
Would that work with contest checks? There is no set DC, they just rolled higher than you. Same with Talisman. Can it be used in such situations?
@@antongrigoryev6381 The way that I read it, yes. Opposed\contested checks are normal checks, the only thing is that the DC is variable.
@@RandomToon1 exactly, it's still a success or failure
And this is why you never run just a single enemy in an empty field. There should be at least two (preferably three or four) enemies, and something in the terrain to change how it plays.
As a DM with a mostly martials party this is the painful lesson i have learned again and again.
Grapple+Drag is one of the things I LOVE in my back pocket with a Lizardfolk.
If there's water, grab something, drag it in, and just hold on for a few rounds. It drowns, you either leave it or finish it, you climb out, and repeat. Even if you lose the grapple once you're in the drink, you have a swim speed and they don't.
I guess it'd also work with Tortles, Warforged, or any of the water breathing or breathless races.
Another special mention to Dhampir, which can drag people up walls, since they don't need their hands to climb, if I remember correctly.
And, if your DM still hasn't banned flying races... today you will remind them that they should.
Gonna need to hold it for more than a few rounds
(Since they can hold their breath for a number of *minutes* equal to 1+con mod.
So a 10 con creature can hold its breath for 10 rounds.
This was a great Video.
I hope you like to do some more of this small team combinations.
I love when players work together like this. Most optimisation guides just focus on one PC in a Vacuum. It's much more fun if players work together. It's a Team-Game after all.
And the best thing in a team like this all members are needed. So no one is left out.
What's so good about these characters is that outside this tactics they still have plenty of room to be effective, this party is not an one trick pony.
Not a 'one trick Centaur'
Playing in a campaign with magic resistance and resistance to magic damage flying around left right and center. Our party has naturally formed into a 'buff the fighter and barbarian' party. Life finds a way
My favorite combo required two level 3 characters and an uncommon item. Together, we defeated a young black dragon.
I played as a druidbarian. I 'shaped into a giant spider, and my warlock buddy put the Saddle of the Cavalier on me, then hopped aboard.
We managed to catch the dragon in it's cave, and, lucky us, it was still too young to have made it a lair.
I raged and recklessly attacked the dragon, leaping onto it's back as warlock hexed it's strength checks.
It turned it's head and bit me, which hurt a little, but put it's head into the reach of my many limbs. I grappled onto it's face with advantage from raging, and its hex-based disadvantage kept it from successfully disengaging.
It tried again to fling me off, but my rear legs were anchored tightly, hooked behind it's wings.
I then used my web attack from point blank range, and DM cooly ruled that I could use the webbing to wrap the dragons head to its own neck, all doubled over.
The dragon finally used its breath attack, even though it was not immune to its own acid. As a barb, I easily could've evaded the main brunt of the damage, but instead of surrendering my grapple, I just arched my abdomen to move my warlock, who also saved, fully out of the blast's path.
The acid burned away my webbing, but I rolled a 6 and it recharged on my next turn, so I repeated my previous tactic.
The young dragon's breath did not recharge, he was unable to pull himself from my sticky grapple, and he was left helpless.
From this point forward, I continued to grapple and wrap the dragon until I had it fully restrained. During that time, the dragon tail whipped me a couple times and the warlock fired a steady stream of eldritch blasts into it.
Once cocooned, I stopped using my action to upgrade my grapple and started pumping my paralysis poison into him. (It makes him unconscious and paralyzed instead of dead when dropped to 0.)
I never lost my wildshape and warlock never lost his concentration. Had either of those failed, we would've been in real trouble. As it was, we ended up having a really cool RP session with a captured dragon and ended up making a new, albeit evil, friend that day.
I interpret when you move as choosing to move. I would include harengon leap and being granted an extra move by another player, but not being moved (in the video this is "when you ARE moved"). I think its pretty clean.
I love this teamwork build video! One of the problems with individual optimization is that it can mechanically ruin a party dynamic. But if every party member is contributing to the optimization and everyone can take credit, then everyone has fun!
What might be even better than a Centaur is a Tabaxi. When you activate Kitty Speed it doubles your current movement - at 30+10x2/2, your 40 speed becomes 80 speed. With movement, Haste Dash, and Action Surge Dash, that's 240 feet of movement vs the Centaur's 150 ft for an equivalent amount of resources. After Kitty Speed runs out you'll have 40 speed again. Assuming your action is spent Shoving or Re-grappling you'll have 80ft on turns two and onward compared to the Centaur's 100ft. The centaur does more on subsequent turns, but it still takes them 5 more turns to catch up to you in terms of movement expended. (4 more turns if you can use your action to grapple instead of shoving or re-grappling; they catch up on turn 3.)
Because a Tabaxi can recharge Kitty Speed by simply taking a turn without moving, this can be used in every combat and even multiple times a combat if you're lucky. Tabaxi Kitty Speed is the ultimate meat grinder tactic.
Love this take. I've been building my own list of combo characters. Can't wait to lengthen the list by watching these.
I fucking love team synergy like this. Though I can’t help but notice this tactic works PB times per long rest and once per shortrest.
Grappling is strong outside of spike dragging and this was a great example of it shredding a single target. Hopefully this gets people’s noggins jogging on more creative combat tactics.
So glad my name isn't James! I'm running out of excuses
Is it David?
@@fadeleaf845 Nope. I'll get there tho. I have a Patreon or two I should drop but feel bad. 😂
I also came up with a similar combo awhile ago except only two players, moon druid + any haste caster. Basically you would cast spike growth and wild shape into a large / huge creature, and have haste one you. This combo seems way more reliable though, considering concentration. Also the rules aren't totally clear on whether you can grapple creatures in certain animal forms.
@ 6:50 Jeremy Crawford actually stated that he'd allow your mount to move at half speed and you could maintain your grapple, so it does work.
Hey there treantmonk, great video, and such a fun tactic! In my party, we have an str EK with an animated shield, a warlock, a gloom stalker ranger and a shepherd druid. We we're discussing the tactics for our next session and realized that, since we knew we we're going to face an spellcaster BBEG, the druid could activate bear totem while the warlock would cast hex on the target. After that, the EK could animate the shield, grapple and shove the enemy prone, while the gloomstalker would cast silence and come close to help the EK end the target. We applied it in the next session and it was rly effective. The druid summons would have joined to have some fun with the prone BBEG, but it was the end of a very long dungeon and we we're really low on resources.
This video was one of the most enjoyable ones I’ve seen from your channel! Each time you talked about something you included in the combo I would mentally guess “wait so that thing goes there to make such? No way, that’s so clever!” and then you’d proceed to reveal that was exactly the case
@Treantmonk's Temple
Encumbrance has been brought up. A fire giant is suppose to weight 7,000lbs, and you can only get to 4,320 lbs on your drag with an enlarge spell. Would take 4 doubling effects: Enlarge + Enhance Ability ( two concentration spells) + Giant's Might + Equine Build (or similar) to get to 8,640lbs, 9,600lbs with 20 Str. But that's only your max drag, double your max carry, dragging above your max carry puts your speed to 5ft. So Under normal circumstances, you'd struggle to drag anything over 1,080 - 1,200lbs by the RAW and applying encumbrance to combat.
Rules for encumbrance are a bit over-tuned for medium and smaller creatures and absurdly weak for large and larger. A terrasque should be able to throw a tank over but it can’t even come close.
@@dustinsmith2021 yep, 2x per size doesn't account for cubic growth of dimension per mass/strength.
@@SpiderWaffle I wrote on another comment a formula for weight by cubic space
Oh, I wrote it another one or YOUR comments.
I find some satisfaction in that I started to build the same kind of Rune Knight in my head as soon as you mentioned Spike Growth. The Temple has clearly taught me well. ~
Love the combo and idea. You have Thing1 and Thing2 riding a centaur around the countryside. They stop off at towns and villages taking care of problem giants. Amazing.
I'm surprised that you didn't call this the cheese grater team.
What I love the most about this is the visual demonstration. Even for theatre of the mind players, the various feats, spells and abilities stacking on display help weave it all together. Eh, I'm a visual learner.
Great video!! Please more combo videos! This is so good.
I love this style of video. Particularly the moment when he says “slaughter” for the first time.
Normally, I'm not a fan of gimmicks like this.... But for some reason... I'm loving it.
By the RAW, the Fire Giant itself could only drag 3,000lbs, less than half it's purported weight, and that would reduce it's speed to 5 by RAW. It could carry only
An example I’m more familiar with is “butt-naked halfling with a spear on a vulture”. Iirc the total weight of the halfling is 43lbs. Vulture has a strength of 7 and is medium. Vulture carry weight is 105lbs. Kind of the opposite problem you have.
@@dustinsmith2021 ya their system doesn't handle weights outside the normal ranges for PC size and strength very well. Partly the strength for larger sized creatures in reality should be super high, breaking other mechanics, and small creature's strength should be lower.
@@SpiderWaffle
Tiny 1xstr
Small 5xstr
Medium 10xstr
Large 40xstr
Huge 160xstr
Gargantuan 640xstr
Weight could also be done better with cubes and varying modifiers. I’m not a mathematical genius (I failed algebra twice) so bare with me.
Y(X)(str) Y is the variable size category modifier and X the number of cubes a size category occupies and Str is strength score.
The fallowing are the Y value by size category and the number of cubes each size occupies:
Medium 10(1)
Large 10(8)
Huge 15(27)
Gargantuan 20(64)
Take one of the values and multiply by a strength score and that is carry weight. A gargantuan creature now carries 25,600 lbs. about the weight of a large semi truck. Medium sized creatures take a hit, but it’s also a bit more realistic and I like that. I didn’t worry about small and tiny creatures, but I’d suggest maybe y(x)(str)/2 for small and y(x)(str)/4 for tiny.
Might want to take silence on the Wizard (or another party member if you have a fourth player) so you can prevent misty step/dimension door/other magical escapes from more magically inclined enemies
With a 3 level caster dip, the grappler can also stack the new fizban spell, ashardalon's stride for another 20(40 with haste) feet movement speed, at some point get mobile feat for an extra 10(20 w/ haste) move speed and go into monk for more movement bonuses. You will lose sanctuary if you use ashardalon's though
Grapple Member #4 should be a Goblin Monster Hunter Ranger, for access to Pass Without Trace, and (at higher levels) to foil a teleport or spell. Combined with the Wizard's Counterspell, it should help shut down teleportation to escape the bramble patch.
Member #5 could be a Twilight Cleric to upcast Bless for the fighter and the other party members for their stealth roll, as well as the Twilight Sanctuary for temp hp, and at higher levels a Death Ward just incase.
A comment just because Chris is awesome.
Advanced Cheesegrating Tactics
Some more considerations:
-The Chronurgist can easily slot Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern for group fights. Spike Growth in itself is already fantastic at dealing with loads of small enemies.
-Eldritch Blast combined with Repelling Blast is still on the table if the Rune Knight somehow ended up out of position.
-Both casters can further have more chance manipulation using Silvery Barbs. Doing so also lets the RK grapple with advantage while not using Giant's Might.
-There's still a fourth character available to most parties! Paladins can Bless and use their Aura to further boost the party's saving throws.
For the grappler I would consider the races: Simic Hybrid, Thri-kreen(UA), Elf (Wood; Aereni) from Wayfinder's Guide to Ebberon, Tabaxi, or Aarakocra. Simic Hybrid, and Thri-kreen get two extra arms that can grapple one more creature each. Aarakocro has 50ft fly + works with long strider, can fly over spike growth to reach enemies, just can't wear medium or heavy armor. Tabaxi movement double stacks extremely well with other doubling effects, should burst down anything the turn you use it. The two Aereni races get an expertise, I think the only two races that can do that, the woodelf one gets 35ft speed, then you can get a different feat or skill bonus if you can start with higher (or lower) Strength depending how character is created, none of the other feats for +1 Str would be that great unfortunately. Heavy Armor Master, Tavern Brawler 😕
Wow, this is surprisingly similar to a centaur grappler build I've been toying with recently.
I'm pretty sure that a creature can't benefit from the dodge action if their speed is set to zero.
So monks and other dodgy classes be aware of grapple enemies on the battlefield.
A naked male fire giant weighs about 3.5 tons, more with weapons and armor. That is far beyond what a character can move. You can grab a giant, but you simply are not strong enough to drag him/her. I know a Jujitsu blackbelt who was sucker-punched by a drunk while he was playing pinball. Jim instinctively blocked the punch, joint-locked the drunk, and frog marched him out of the bar. Is that how you imagine this working? Your bruiser grappler joint-locks a giant and marches him at running speed through a briar patch? Milo was a legendary Greek strong man who carried a bull calf on his shoulders every day until the bull was full-grown - weighing between a half-ton and a ton - he famously WALKED into the Olympic stadium with the bull on his shoulders. That was a nearly impossible feat. In 5e, the carrying capacity at 20 strength is only 300 pounds. If you tried this in my game, I might let you successfully grapple, but you would be immobile until you could explain why you can drag 23 times your carrying capacity. I might consider it a 'nearly impossible' feat and require an athletics check of 30 every round to keep moving if I felt generous.
I read the rule as when you move by any movement that is instigated by you and powered by you. So, leaps absolutely, teleports no luck, mounts nope. Although, I want a class feat that allows you to maintain grapples while mounted so you can drag people across the battlefield from the back of your war horse... If the other creature is moved without your input, that's what breaks the grapple by distance, and they don't care about the source.
I help a friend to simulate battles before he throws challenging encounters on his players. In one day all his BBEGs were obliterated by a wild magic barbarian and a fathomless warlock with bigby's hand (lvl 12 if I remember correctly). Barb had advantage in initiatives and always started before the BBEGs. Grapple before they could fly was essential, and extra movement because of instinctive pounce was also relevant. In later turns, the barb had 1d3 extra in the grappling checks which was by chance just enough to keep opponent prone and grappled. Bigby's hand also grappled later and barb released grapple to use it's great weapon master with advantage together with the fighter with action surge. Warlock spent its other pact slots to counterspell everything and the battle was quickly over. I really like grappling in high tier 2 and tier 3 given the higher mobility of the monsters and trickier combats.
My friend started constantly complaining how monsters miss proficiency in athletics and how easily some combats are solved with grappling. Something that we normally don't use in our own campaigns btw.
Never understood grapple that well until now. Pretty sure I’ve only used it once - to grapple a member of my own party lol. The Fey Bard had some sort of home brew charm effect any time someone near her attacked any plant-type monster so I (the Barbarian) always have to grapple her for a few rounds any time we fight awakened plants grrr
Fun team build to explore.
Looks boring to play, though, at least after 5 stomping battles. A good DM might come up with interesting challenges, but yeah.
The real value of this video is how it shows how to conceptualize, and then exectute that concept. I.e.
Moving in spike growth hurts. Let's find a way to force enemies to move in it.
This method can be used for any party:
- We have good ranged attacks. Let's find a way to keep enemies at a distance.
- We have good area effects. Let's force our opponents together, and keep them there, in our death zone.
- etc
Quoting trantmonk's temple: This is fan-ta-stic.
With "moving a grappled creature", if you used your mount I would apply the same rules but then use the mounts size. So medium creatures on large horses can move small creatures unimpeded while medium creatures on their own need a tiny for that.
I wouldn't count forced movement as "you move" however, otherwise effects like thunderwave wouldn't be highlighted as the exception.
I actually had a rune knight grappler planned to play in the near future. I was thinking of using the fire rune for an extra bit of grappling and be a bugbear to keep the enemy out of reach.
But you gave me some food for thought.
A composition like this has long been my fantasy power lineup. Spike growth, (SG) is the best spell in the game in imho, besides maybe Silvery Barbs now. With more party members would add in a Druid for more AoE debuffs like Plant Growth or summons to drag through SG (get 8 poison frogs causing disadvantage on all checks to everything they touch if at all possible 😃) and a 2nd option for SG. The Sorlock also can just out DPS virtually any build with agonizing blast, repelling blast w/ SG. Crawford has also said he have a mount move at half their speed and allow you drag grappled things while mounted. Scout Rouge and Swords Bard also have some great ways to do more movement. (Psionic fighter can double walking speed but takes 7 levels, and forgoes Runeknight)
Absolutely loved this video! Hope there's more like it on the way.
I will 100 % watch the collaboration show in January ^^ with "highly optimized level 13 chars" and what Monty is throwing at you.
Fire Giant: *grapples you back*
Rune Knight: oh no
or
Fire Giant: *holds action to throw rock on the Daolock*
DaoLock: oh no
Cool build & tactic, kind of a one trick pony. True, it's probably the best build/combo for dragging someone through Spike Growth.
Rune Knight is generally going to out grapple a fire giant without too much difficulty.
The Fire Giant is going to have a hard time grappling the Rune Knight for the same reasons the Rune Knight is likely to be able to grapple the Fire Giant. Should the giant get lucky, then the escape check shouldn't be hard to succeed on. Should the giant ready an action, the Daolock needs to just stay hidden.
Moon druid can do something similar just not as effective. Cast spike growth turn into bear, bears are okay grapplers. Just not as defensive or as fast. Concentration is key. Also your death squad is awesome unless the fire giants minion can cast dispell magic. Anyway, like it a lot. Great video.
I tried to accomplish a similar combination of abilities in a single character. That build doesn't really "finish" until level 12 but it's unlikely you'll need to grapple a gargantuan creature earlier than that, I think. I used a winged tiefling to solve the flying enemy issue and got to level 3 in Sorcerer to grab Enlarge/Reduce. Ideally, another member of my party could cast Haste on me but it's not absolutely necessary because I am learning Expeditious Retreat as a Sorcerer. I skipped Spike Growth in favor of just flying into the sky and either shoving the enemy prone or stop flying to fall and land on top of the enemy. If someone else in the party can cast Spike Growth, it would obviously deal nice damage. It's more of a tank build than a damage build but seems like a lot of fun.
Another side bonus is if the other party members are behind the Rune Knight, they benefit from half cover against ranged damage so there's some nice support there as well.
A pre-warning before casting sanctuary:
From Jeremy Crawford:
"Grappling/shoving an enemy does end the sanctuary spell on you, since you have made an attack."
This unusually cheesy and optimistic but I'd love to see this in in theory or just a combat oneshot. It sounds hillarious to try to grapple with a gargantuan on lvl 5 and wrestle with the gods.
Everyone: "Custom Lineage and Variant Human are so boring because every optimized build uses them!"
Treantmonk: "Two Goblins and a Centaur."
I know that it must have been a lot of work to make this video, but I'd love to see more combo videos
I was trying to find spells like spike growth that clearly don't work with the common "When the creature FIRST enters the area or start a turn inside" text, but couldn't find one.
I was going to say that this combo is weaker in a group that puts the circle in circle form. But doen't matter how you put the circle, you can find a spot where it will have 2 paralel squares and you can just go up-down or left-right
If you are taking 2 levels of Rogue on the fighter, you could skip the skill expert feat because you can choose to get expertise in athletics at Rogue level 1. That would allow you to take an ASI or different feat at fighter 4.
I play an Fallen Aasimar Rune Knight, but reflavored the class that the celestial source of his heritage is an empyrean (also took on lvl 4 Skill Expert and on Lvl 6 Tavern Brawler - both with a +1 Str increase). It takes a bit of setup, but the results speak for themselves.
Personally I kept him without multiclass and with Unarmed Fighting Style. It is pretty fun playing him.
42:15 You can dash before you grapple to get the full addition of your speed to your movement, but I think that dash bonus is supposed to be reduced when your speed is reduced by the drag. I think it'd be easier to understand if dragging required you to expend twice the number of ft you would otherwise need to expend to move 1ft, instead of manipulating your speed.
How can you possibly dash while dragging 3.5 tons?
@@shishkabobby by gettin big
@@SpiderWaffle RAW, enlarge does not increase strength. It gives an increase in damage of 1d4. What strength should you use for an enlarged centaur? While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying Capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet. (RAW, PHB p 176 in my edition)
@@shishkabobby Interesting, this might not work for the Fire Giant if it's weight is 7,000lbs:
1. I'm not sure if encumbrance rules were meant to apply to grapple drags during combat.
2. You can actually get to 8640lbs but it would take enlarge/reduce and enhance ability on you. On that same page (PHB 176) you 2x your limits for every size larger beyond medium. Normally you can drag 30*Str. Giant's Might + enlarge is 2 sizes larger, and Centaur's Equine Build and enhance ability state: "You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push or drag." so *2^4 or 16, 30*18*16= 8640lbs. However, as you point out your speed is only 5ft if you go above 15*Str, half of these calculations, so this tactic just wouldn't work very well on really heavy things with these rules, I'm not sure if you can get to 8,000lbs with any other special doubling mechanic, you're one short even with these two concentration spells.
I was expecting more of a wombo combo "fight back" situation, but cheese grater is cool too
My first 5E was with a new group: the experienced DM gave us xp to level 3, and the fighter was an internet homebrew luchador subclass. I was the lone spellcaster, a conjurer when chronurgy ans runeknight didn't exist. It was alright using flaming spheres, and cloud of daggers at first but it really came online at level 5. We had no source of spike growth or sanctuary, but fly kept the fighter safe from most enemies while they dispatched one. Grappling is a fun mechanic.
Cloud of daggers works well with grapple, though the advantage of faster speed really doesn't play a part anymore.
Why not use the graviturgy wizard to give disadvantage to people you're trying to grapple
The main issue here is the action set-up so unless you can get quicken spell that's a problem. Chronurgy can essentially get you the same thing with a reaction if you need it, so it doesn't interefere with setting up haste.
I’ve built a simic hybrid beast barbarian using the grappling appendage and the tail while raging to be able to grapple up to 5 characters at once which has been incredible for locking down enemies especially groups of 3-4 people
Great concept! Really fun mechanic optimization.
Basically the only thing that messes this up is some sort of teleportation ability.
I'd add one thing: The Rune Knight should learn Expeditious Retreat (might be something to get at level 6 via a feat or dip).
This allows the RK to weaponize their bonus action (which they currently aren't using) with another dash action and another 50 damage.
Instead of Centaur, you could go with Tabaxi to increase your nova damage.
That's true, though I wouldn't expect a lot of that at level 5. What would really help with that is if someone picked up Fog Cloud as most monster teleports require line of sight.
Loxodons and Simic Hybrids would also be cool to look at for the extra appendages to grapple a second character.
The Cheese Grater Party Build
Oh I was hoping for a centaur. :D
Dont mind me, just commenting to improve the algorithm
Second that!
grappling is an attack. it doesn't require an attack roll, but it's a special melee attack.
This definitely would not make this combo more powerful, but it may possibly give more options away from spike growth and more tactics against multiple enemies - maybe consider the simic hybrid to have the capacity to grapple up to 4 creatures. Then the wizard could also be abjuration to allow them to bombard the cluster. Finally, you could consider the unarmed fighting style with the fighter to allow them to be headbutting someone for 1d8+str on each attack once they have 4 creatures grappled. Not saying this is without flaws - but could be a fun grappling PC
If the Rune Knight was a Tabaxi the Nova damage could get really silly.
Definitely started building a rune knight last week for a future adventure. 1 level in Divine soul sorcerer to make up for weak mental saving throws. Hoping that future team could make out for a fun death squad ensemble.
Well, grab Expeditious Retreat from the Sorcerer... make that Bonus action work for you!
@@insertphrasehere15 expeditions retreat is first spell pick and bless from divine soul to sustain the team when there are too many to lock down.
Maybe we should find a way to have the silence spell in the area of the enemy too? So we don't have to listen the screams.....oh, and avoid most teleportations aswell :p
Silvery Barbs (1st) from Strixhaven, which could be taken as a feat is just as good as the Chronurgy Magic feature.
Yes, I actually completed this video before Strixhaven was released, but it would accomplish the same thing.
You stole my comment! LOL
Who came here in 2024 because of Treantmonks Tier List? ;)
With grappling I had imagined that you would occupy the same square(s) as the creature you are grappling. (Admittedly in our group we don't use it much, except maybe to interrogate the last enemy.) If you consider one human grappling another (IRL), it kind of makes sense that they're very close (in the 'same space'). The grappler (IRL) wouldn't really be able to drag the grapplee (inventing a word?) through some kind of effect while also not (at least partially) suffering the same effect. I guess RAW the grappler and grapplee do not occupy different squares after a successful grapple. But maybe considering RAI, I'm not sure the tactic presented in the video would fly (and would it be fun after 3 combats?).
But, I do thoroughly enjoy the theory-crafting. Nice video!
Nothing in the rules specific that they occupy the same square at any point.
And if we think of "IRL", you would not por your hands on the spike, just drag the enemy's back there. Inside you're grappling someone into a moonbean spell, you don't need to put your hands in the burning light, you stop then when your target starts to scream.
Treant, you missed the best member of this squad:
Lore Bard! Bardic Inspiration to buff your Athletics and Cutting Words to debuff the enemy's Athletics / Acrobatics and far more uses that Chronal Shift. Sadly Bard doesn't get the best spells to combo, but with Tasha's they do get Enlarge Reduce, Heroism (to prevent your Rune Knight getting stuck Frightened of the enemies and unable to grapple them), Enhance Ability for when the Rune Knight doesn't want to use their Giant's might, and Silence!!! (to keep a grappled mage from Misty Stepping out of there or casting AoE spells to hit the casters). With an Instrument of the Bards they will have Levitate & Fly once per day to deal with flying enemies (or use Hideous Laughter to make them fall out of the sky), and take Haste with your 6th level Magical Secrets.
Then add in a Starry Druid as the third member for Spike Growth, Wall of Thorns and other AoE concentration spells (Moonbeam, Wall of Fire, Malestrom, Flaming Sphere). Plus at 6th level they get Cosmic Omen which is another few emergency buffs / debuffs to your or the enemy's grapple checks, and with Dragon Constellation you'll almost never lose concentration. They also have several options to force flying creatures down onto the ground for the grappler. Importantly, several of the higher level spells also block line of sight - e.g. Wall of Fire, or Wall of Thorns - which means even without shoving the enemy prone they have DA on attacks unless they have blindsight, plus limits the options for Mages to try to escape.
It takes 1 extra level to fully come online (6th vs 5th) but it scales much better since Druid continues to get more and more spells that synergize with a Grappler that can simultaneously damage and debuff enemies so the grappler can leave one target trapped inside say a Malestrom or Whirlwind or floating 100ft up in an area of Reverse Gravity while they go and grappling a second target. Plus this team has far more flexibility since the Druid has more options to do decent damage on movement simply into an area rather than by the dragged through the area.
Im gonna make an NPC adventuring group that will come across the players with this strategy. They'll claim that they are Dragonhunters called the Dragonwrestlers and fight the party if they get into their way :D
Love it, you got the format right for this
Thank you!
@@TreantmonksTemple you are welcome :)
Oh look, a chance for Arcane Archer to use the charming arrow!
You don't need to limit the grappler to Rune Knight, you can just use any race that has Powerful Build. It won't let you grapple gargantuan creatures, but with the same setup you can drag medium creatures at full speed.
Powerful build only modifies your carrying capacity, it doesn't impact grapple size limits.
Great combination of powers and mechanics. It is beautiful but the DM would cry. 😂
Lovin' this! Hope there'll be more party vids :D
Another focused team concept I like is taking a action surged or quicken spelled grave domain cleric to hold person/ path to the grave vulnerability then have a pallylock or rogue/pally multi class with an melee cantrip nova a target.
You just take the hold action to make the attack with the pally as a reaction and f the initiative is a bit off.
Also I believe you can use your bonus action if it doesn’t need you to use your action first? So the cleric with quicken spell hold person and then use their reaction to use path to the grave when the paladin move up to trick the target… not exactly sure on this last part.
This is why action economy is so important
If the giant could escape, the safest place would be in the middle of the spike growth chucking rocks. But, even then, the daolock can just push it to the edge with eldritch blast, so the runeknight can continue the madness without venturing into the spike growth himself. Nice.
Well this has certainly given me some ideas for our party of a Chronurgist, a Ranger who uses Spike Growth as his signature spell, and a Vengeance Paladin who loves to grapple. Now, how can we get our Echo Knight archer in on the fun?
If the rune knight is a duragar you could spare the wizard a concentration slot l. Plus you'll probably already have high con as a rune knight
The "riding multiple phantom steed" exploit only really works if your DM allows you to fully utilize multiple movements per round; and I'm pretty sure that's not RAI.
You should do the Ultimate Summon Squad next, love your content !
41:43 My understanding of the grappling rules is that you can only substitute up to one attack with a grapple (i.e. can't use extra attack). I believe you could use your hasted action, but not your extra attack.
You can substitute any attack per RAW. Strategy is safe.
I read it that you can substitute both attacks if you have extra attack, but I could understand reading it the other way.
Would you ever do a brief overview of any subclasses of the more popular unofficial 5e supplements? Thinking of things like the Grim Hollow player's guide. I had trouble finding any informative reviews of the grim hollow player's guide, for example, and after purchasing was a bit hesitant to even suggest most of the subclasses to a DM as they seem fairly unbalanced. A brief overview before hand might have steered me towards a resource I would have more appreciated.
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With a moon druid instead of a dao warlock you both have a potential second grappler and you have access to pass without trace so you could surprise your opponent and make sure you act before the opponent act.
Would love to see you and the other players use these builds for the collaboration with the Dungeon Dudes and D&D Optimized!
That would have been fun, that's not what we're doing though.
I figured as such but it would have been interesting to watch all of you show off this combo!
Duergar Rune Knight can make themselves Huge.
I think this team violates the Geneva Convention.