The thumbnail for this video says "achieves over triple baseline damage", actually, the damage caps at +299% of baseline, so just under triple. I originally had the damage over 300% before I checked my work.
It should be noted that the 'build' is really just a Rogue with Elven Accuracy and a way of getting reliable Advantage. This can be done on a CE/SS too and will boost it similarly. You wouldn't use CE/SS for Phantom because the Bonus Action is being used (so no CE), and the damage per attack is far too high for SS (you want multiple weaker attacks for SS to add value).
even non wizard options are great. Choosing cleric class for the ritual caster feat with all those divination spells is great. and forbiddance in many settings can be of much help.
As you all push along the old path towards the ruined fort, shrouded by nightfall, your hear the unmistakable sound of hoof beats approaching. It is distant at first, but their heavy rhythm rapidly overtakes you as a spectre comes to block the path ahead. As he raises his visage to face you from under his hood, he brings to bear a contraption of iron and wood that must surely be thrice as heavy as the light hunting crossbow you have with you. Under the shroud of his hood, vengeful eyes meet your gaze. "You should not have come here," comes the guttural growl "Your soul is mine!" Roll initiative.
I think it's also worth mentioning that this build doesn't need to get a reaction Sneak Attack every round to achieve this damage, which is very impressive.
That's because wails from the grave is just a better version of sentinel on a rouge not needing to be with in fight feat or wait for an ally to take damage.
Getting his tokens does take him those reactions though. Also, as you can see (7:45) even though haste ended after either round 6 or after round 7 of combat, he never skipped his turn. If he had, rogue's dpm would have probably been lowered thanks to the casting of haste.
@@Olav_Hansen My interpretation re: ending Haste is that the 12 rounds of combat were not a single encounter. So the Rogue had Haste up until the end of one encounter, and then didn't have Haste for the next encounter.
@@YoungLink314 Okay that part is possible. But it's important to remember that if you are hasted, you will do more damage but you won't be restocking those trinkets.
If I’m not mistaken, you could use your free casting of Invisibility on your Phantom Steed. Attacks against it will have disadvantage, giving it some extra defence and your mount doesn’t make attacks so Invisibility won’t end from that part of the spell. Plus riding an invisible mount would make you appear as this intimidating floating reaper flying around the battlefield at 100ft per round.
Ooo that also means it can always dash, and doesn't need to disengage. Cool idea. You're going to love that invisibility while scouting with ghost walk, but this is another strong use, especially if you want to uses melee more often.
FWIW the steed has an AC of 10. Most things are going to hit that at level 4 unless they roll very low. By mid-game the horse is always getting hit unless the attacking creature rolls a 1. Still a cool idea, though, and packed with flavor.
@@knurspgaming1681 Quote from the combat section regarding opportunity attacks: You can make an Opportunity Attack when a Hostile creature *that you can see* moves out of your reach. -So they do not meet the triggering criteria. -For additional confirmation regarding the trigger, under the invisible condition: An invisible creature *is impossible to see* without the aid of magic or a Special sense.
I like that this build illustrates how important accuracy is for damage. It does the exact same amount of peak damage as a generic straight phantom rogue, but the ability to practically steady aim every round with elven accuracy drives the real numbers through the roof.
Yeah, there's a reason why a lot of the highest damage builds involve subclasses that boost accuracy (e.g. battlemaster using precision attack). There's definitely a double dip with elven accuracy on a rogue that consistently gains advantage. Yeah, accuracy is extremely important to damage, but on a rogue elven accuracy is also very good at crit fishing, and crits on a rogue are substantial.
The ElvAcc and Steady Aim are really doing all the heavy lifting here when ranged, with Phantom just adding in some damage to a secondary target (if one exists). If looking at the melee damage, you can add in Booming Blade to that. Sure, at 17 you can add the Phantom's Wailing Grave to a single target - if you reach that in your campaign. I think this needs to be said, because this build will effectively work just fine on any Rogue subclass with no damage lost on a single target. For some, like Arcane Trickster, you could do more single-target damage. Alternatively, if we are going to look at multiple-target damage and compare that to a single-target damage baseline (which is what Chris has done here with Wailing Grave), then a simple Fireball aught to outdamage this (or various other AOE/Multiple-Target spells). Not saying Phantom is bad here, it is just the cherry on top that could be swapped out for another fruit of your choice. That's a good thing, actually.
I initially thought this might suffer a bit in the cramped conditions common in dungeons, but even squeezing the horse still has 50ft of movement before dashing.
Depends on the DM, I am paying an Undead Warlock who has Phantom Steed, on a West Marches campaign. So basically, I am playing with several DMs. However, they always do not allow me to get the Steed inside the Dungeon or cave. I have played it with possibly ten different DMs and none of them have ever allowed me to get the Steed on interiors or caves... so yeah.
Never thought I’d see the day when a rogue deals good damage, without being insanely vulnerable on defense. Kudos to Ramen Goblin, and thanks for sharing this effective and flavorful build!
@@itspabbs I’ve got no beef with the arcane trickster, but it doesn’t really have good defense or damage to speak of. Great utility though. For example, at level 5, an arcane trickster with booming blade and a rapier can expect to deal 2d8+3d6+4 (23.5) damage on a hit, occasionally getting some Booming blade secondary damage to pump that to 32.5. Meanwhile, a subclassless monk with a quarterstaff is dealing 2d8+1d6+12 (24.5) damage on all hits, and can FoB to get an extra 1d6+4 for 32 damage. However, this has the very large advantage of being spread out over many attacks - a rogue dealing 20 damage to finish off an foe with 10 hp effectively only had 10 damage that round, while a monk that spent their first two attacks downing a foe can spend their last 1-2 damaging another one. The point of this isn’t to advocate for monks, but mostly to say that if the AT’s offensive prowess is comparable-to-inferior to a generic monk, it doesn’t really have much going for it.
@@mikebieser4175 that's assuming they all hit where an Arcane Trickster can essentially guarantee their one attack is made with advantage. Also, cunning action disengage further increases the likelihood that the target will take the Booming Blade damage. You can play your Monk. I'd rather play the rogue.
@@itspabbs no shame for playing whatever you want. But no matter how you slice it, your damage is in the same league as a generic monk. Add a subclass and feats to the monk and the rogue starts falling behind. Not that I’m advocating monks in particular. Frankly, rangers do virtually everything rogues do, but better, so if we’re talking optimization, you can play your rogue. I’d rather play the ranger.
@@mikebieser4175 I think that a "Zen Archer" Monk using Focused Aim, Sharpshooter, and Ki Fueled Attacks would be at least on par with a Hand Crossbow specialized Battle Master using Precision Attack. Granted, I haven't done any DPR calculations there.
This was awesome. Seeing a singleclass rogue shine is very nice, and not only it dosen't need to give up utility but actually has more than a standard rogue. Love it 100%
An important note here is that I believe Ritual Caster is only needed for self-sufficiency here. If the party has a Wizard, I think the build still works making use of Phantom Steeds they provide you.
True! Teamwork! I think that Ritual Caster still brings a lot to the build outside of Phantom Steed. Many rituals synergize with the Double Phantom's utility and flavor.
Ramen speaks truth. You can't understate the utility and the beneficial action economy effects of the additional party find familiars enabled by ritual caster.
10:41 can we talk about how even the roleplay is optimized? The idea of getting your beloved pet killed just to optimize the narrative impact of phantom steed is just *chef's kiss*
@@owenduffy5745 At 12:37 he says not to get SS because it will miss so it would lower our overall dmg, but 3d20's is still a good chance to get 10 extra dmg, I mean 94% chance to hit without it is ridiculously high, but I guess it's better to get multiple horses to run in and out of range with but that just seams so cheesy.
@@Charles-ij1ow I did the math with a base chance of 60% to hit, elven accuracy, a d8 weapon, +5 dex modifier and 5d6 sneak. with sharpshooter, you get around 1.5 extra points of damage per round. Lower AC enemies will be in favor of SS, while higher AC will be better for no SS. Higher AC are the ones that are probably more important, and even a 1.5 points of dpr is hardly worth a feat. Also, consistency is often worth more than a 1.5 points in dpr. In higher levels, you will end up wanting to use the all-in even less. However, SS also has range upgrade, and anti-cover, so this feat is still pretty good, although not core to the build
I don't normally comment. I try to avoid the drama. BUT!!! Bravo Raman_goblin. Thank-you to Chris for sharing this with the world. Gods been following Treant's guides since 3.5 1.) I see a lot of people calling Shennanigans. Calling deliberate manipulation of the RAW. That the RAI are being broken. Ok. I get that. Chris did say "Talk to your GM." Its a game. Ask, make your arguement and deal with it. 2.) Given I tend to go more caster focused in my characters, I am happy to see a Martial come out on top for once. And people who say RAI over RAW. Fine. 2 points to consider Wish and Time Stop. Yes higher level, ok level 5 spells still far more powerful than this damage out put at level 9. Its a fantasy game in a fantasy world and your trying to argure real world limitations in it. Bravo raman, and thank you Treant.
I personally won't judge if it's RAW/RAI. Sources I trust say this is a possible use case, but there is one thing to consider. Steady Aim is an optional feature, meaning what the build hinges on for easy, reliable damage isn't something you can always take. Particularly, I wouldn't assume you could take it while playing a strong race/subclass, which elf/half-elf, and phantom both are.
I always thought Phantom was a good subclass, though the players I know who took it chaffed at the small number of uses of Wails at low levels. But honestly Phantom gives Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler a run for their money. Though I disagree with the interpretation that Phantom Steeds 'die' when the spell ends (i.e. when they take damage), same with most summoned creatures RAW they generally just vanish back to their home plane they don't 'die' so can't be used to refill trinkets.
@@agilemind6241 It's always good to have a conversation with your DM, and I flag that in the build when I mention the technique. My assumption when discussing that techniques is that the spell states that it creates a creature and that the creature has the statistics of a riding horse, with some exceptions. Statistics would include 13 HP, which I can guarantee you can achieve in one hit lol. A DM might reasonably rule that the part of the spell that describes the creature fading as a result of taking damage overrides the general rule about creatures dying when they reach 0 HP. With either interpretation, we're in the realm of rulings, not rules as written.
@@ram3n_goblin great build but it's an illusion, quasi real so I am also unconvinced it can die (it may have vreature stats but isn't alive). Still works great though, ice one :)
I have been working on builds for weeks as well as watching hundreds of videos trying to find a build that fits my minds eye for my character. THIS! THIS is my vision personified. Liked, subed, bell. Every word spoken brought my idea to life. 🎉
I already loved the phantom rogue for its flavor and features, having such a powerful build to go along with it just puts it over the top. What good subclass
My thief actually uses Steady Aim on almost every attack. She sits back with her bow and shoots. She lets everyone else move. She doesn't have anything else to do with her bonus action anyway because her primary damage, sneak attack, can only be done once per turn anyway. And her bow can hit just about anything from anywhere, so movement is generally irrelevant. I'm sure doing this mounted is great, but even without the mounted build, this is great too. I'm not sure why everyone thinks rogues need to move so much. Just get some melee characters in your party and sit back, relax, and do sneak attack damage.
@@Tethra043 Yes, multiple opponents, attacking from random directions in waves can also be a problem. Then, there is the concern of assassins. If a sniper is ambushed, unless they are close to their companions, they wind up in a furious 1 on 1 struggle. Being forced to make death saves while your team is running towards your position makes for harrowing edge of the seat gameplay though
I think the problem is that most theorycrafted ranged rogues rely heavily on crossbow expert bonus attacks. Since steady aim competes with that BA slot most people just have a prejudice against it
I love how you are truthful with what you thought prior at every step.. Ever since I saw the name Ramengoblin in the beginning of a video of yours a while back I knew they had to be pretty cool bc the name is awesome 👌
Really really beautiful build! I never considered the possibility of ritual caster to take phantom steed. I was actually looking for a pg for a campaign and was evaluating a Rogue Phantom, High Elf or Shadar-Kai, Elven Accuracy but with Crossbow Expert to launch a Net as action and Sneak atk as bonus, gaining not only triple advantage on the attack but also restraining the target (you lose the fast speed of the Steed but gain a really good control option).
I brought this build starting at fifth level to my adventure leagues group they hadn’t seen anything like it or how I was getting 3d20 on my attack rolls with steady aim and Elvin accuracy,I haven’t missed an attack in eight hours of playing this character
I've been toying with a build similar to this. I was going for a "Mongol" mounted archer style build. I'm definitely thinking about borrowing some of this builds ideas to incorporate into the Mongol style and throw some dark shaman into it to flavor it up. Great build tho props to the guy who built it originally
Ultimately I think the problem with RAI interpretations is the name chosen, if I were to allow this I would theme it as "Focused Aim" where the rogue is focused so much on their attack they forgo any other non-free action (movement/bonus). I feel this better fits the RAW implications.
I guess the other thing which strikes me about this is that it seems so obvious in retrospect. I mean, who'd ever suspect that doing an extra 10d6 worth of damage each round would blow away all other damage dealers? Of course doing d8 + 5 + 3d8 + 10d6 damage, or "only" d10 + 5 + 10d6 damage, is going to surpass everything. I think what it illuminates is how important miss chance is to overall damage calculations in general, and Rogue balance in particular. The combination of Elven Accuracy and Steady Aim trivializes the process of hitting, so all that damage just happens.
"I guess the other thing which strikes me about this is that it seems so obvious in retrospect. I mean, who'd ever suspect that doing an extra 10d6 worth of damage each round would blow away all other damage dealers?" I mean, as someone who was critical of the phantom at launch, I've definitely been proven wrong on some points, and I'm happy that I learned something. But.......I think this won't work at every table. My original criticism went like this: * Phantom's a terrible subclass below level 9. (This is still true--and relevant for me since I've been in campaigns that didn't get to level 9). * I thought most DMs would not allow bag of rats shenanigans. * I thought needing to be in 30 feet to catch a soul trinkets might be very limiting--especially if enemies die on other party member's turns instead of yours. * I thought using your reaction to replenish soul trinkets would conflict with other uses of your reaction. For example order cleric giving you a reaction attack for a second sneak attack, or haste giving you a reaction attack with a held action for a second sneak attack. (Actually...how did ramen_goblin avoid running out of soul trinkets? They were hasted for several turns, so would be losing soul trinket each of those turns. Huh...maybe they did run out of soul trinkets and that's why their damage dropped down to 23-25 on turns 11 and 12? Not sure). I do think if a DM wanted to keep this build in-check, making players work for soul trinkets should achieve that. You don't get soul trinkets back on a short or long rest--only replenished through in-combat reactions--and reactions aren't free. (The difference between bag of rats and not bag of rats for phantom is huge). There were things I for sure missed in my first look at Phantom, though, namely... * Steady Aim is good even without elven accuracy--like comparable to a bonus action attack (and busted with elven accuracy). (I had started to notice this, but I didn't think to combine it with Phantom--all of phantom's damage triggers from a single attack roll, so one extremely accurate attack roll has excellent synergy). * Mounted combat can negate the movement penalty of steady aim (I didn't figure out this one at all) * Mounted combat, if you can get a kill on your turn can make it trivial to move in to get soul trinkets while maintaining safe distance. * Mounted combat lets your horse disengage, which allows you to also apply booming blade while doing steady aim and maintaining a safe distance Mixing in mounted combat to work around the 0 movement is really clever. (I do think some DMs might make a RAI ruling to say that you can't be mounted while using steady aim, though. Like...if you need to stand still to be an accurate sniper, it doesn't make a ton of sense that you can be an accurate sniper while riding a sprinting horse. Firing an arrow from horseback sounds very hard--horseback rides are bumpy).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath One of the strengths of the build, imho, is that nearly all of it is optional. Elven Accuracy, Ritual Caster, and a Cantrip are essentially all you need. Doesn't really need to be Phantom, but it does give extra cleave damage. Any other subclass for utility ought to work nearly as well for most levels against the main target. As to having enough trinkets for consistency, I might not have expected it, but that's something that probably becomes clearer at table than on paper. I don't think it was rats specifically, tho. Horses summoned by Phantom Steed as a buffer, but mostly from killing. As to Steady Aim on mount... I think the biggest thing is directing the horse. Riding on a boat or a cart or chariot seems reasonable. But moving on something while driving rather than a passenger would be harder. There were a lot of horse archers and chariot archers historically, so it isn't a massive stretch. I also like ramen goblin's explanation that given all the broken stuff casters do, letting a rogue do something that RAW works should be acceptable.
@@thebitterfig9903 Even ritual caster is optional if you have a wizard in the party who is willing to help you using it's familiar, and who will summon a phantom steed for you.
Going through this build again, and looking at the new 2024 rules. Unless they make some crippling changes to feats, or some specific spells, this build might be even better with the new rules. Probably my first PC to use when AL goes full into the 2024 updated rules. Very impressive build!
I misheard Ramen Goblin as Vomit Goblin when Treantmonk first said it. I'm gonna stick with Vomit Goblin because that damage is absolutely disgusting. Sweet build, I'll be looking into Ritual Caster for the rogue I'm currently playing.
The only bad thinh about this build, which is a bad thing about Rogues in general, is that it only comes online after lvl 9. I think they could place the rogue second sub feature at lvl 7 instead of 9 in the new 2024 update. Great build tho, probably my next char
You get Steady Aim at Level 3 and Elven Accuracy at level 4. You may not be getting insane Wails damage or the ridiculous movement speed from a Phantom Steed at those levels, but you'll have the foundation for the build already -- triple advantage.
100%, I've wanted to play a Phantom rogue since day one but I was worried I'd feel subclassless for the majority of the level 1-13 campaign I was going for and ultimately chose against rogue all together. Strong or scaling level 3 features are what set Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler apart from the others moreso than any of their other features for me, imo.
Only thing I could say against those damage numbers is that this build might be less buff-able than some other damage builds, as it's already using its own built-in advantage, but, holy heck, those are some great numbers, and the theme couldn't be more on-point.
Haste gives you a pretty reliable Reaction Sneak Attack (given triple advantage). I think that is the single most potent Buff for this build (or any Rogue really)
very cool build. Granted when someone talk about amounted rogue I tend to think zorro. But you can pull off a very convincing headless horsman here. I think it beats your own best mounted build.....I can't find the video though
Sneak attack first, ask questions of the dead later! 💀 Even more than the damage, I love the flavor of this build. I would probably go with the revised Shadar-Kai from Mordenkainen’s as a race, just to stick with the theme. Blessing of the Raven Queen also pairs well with Find Familiar to teleport past barriers through which you cannot see. Awesome! 👍🏻
Shadar-kai is going to be awesome for the double phantom, for sure. The teleporting past barriers eventually is unneeded, since at level 13 you have ghost walk.
@@Puffinbar What hurts the build? Shadar-Kai is an Elf subrace. You could still take Elven Accuracy at 4th Level, or any ASI level thereafter, if you want. I would probably take it at 8th. We usually allow a free feat at 1st Level, so our table works a little differently.
(Jaw Drops) I'm speechless, that is an awesome build! Who would have thought a single class could do this with a crossbow. Thank you both for sharing!😃
Remember that Steady Aim is an optional feature. Sure, the results the build can produce are impressive, but it very much hinges a lot on Steady Aim for the ease with which it does it.
@@Jo-Heike That just means Mounted Combatant needs to be picked up earlier to get advantage on anything smaller than the Phantom Steed. It'll be harder to get the good numbers against larger targets, but it'll still be quite powerful.
@@Jo-Heike If we could compare the number of tables that don't use Optional Class Feats like Steady Aim, it would probably be somewhere similar to the number of tables that *do* use regular Feats like Mounted Combatant. Feats are "optional," but are functionally treated like a base-game mechanic, which cannot be said for the *Optional Class Feats* like Steady Aim.
great job! I kept wanting to make a mounted rogue build, but i figured there was no reliable way to get a mount. I kept forgetting that phantom steed is a ritual and for some reason was under the impression that ritual caster only allows rituals of level 1. Steady aim is actually the perfect ability to synergize with a mount, in place of mounted combattant but without a feat. yeah very good
You automatically get level 1 spells for ritual caster, you'll have to rely on your DM to be able to obtain Phantom Steed from a scroll or spell book. At 9th level, that may not be too difficult if scrolls can be purchased or the party has made friends with someone who would have them.
I think more than being a Rogue with this damage, I'm more into the fact that it's a themed build that gets this damage. I liked the number of times your assessment was "Also it works with the edgy aesthetic."
I've been watching a lot of build videos and guides over the past 2 months since getting really into DnD. But this one is thematically and mechanically the best one I've seen. It alows you to still be a roguey rogue, does damage and has tons of roleplay potential. Love it.
So much work just to gain advantage on 1 attack per turn... Their is so many way to gain advantage (and his build have multiple ways easier then steady aim), but one that I very rarely hear about and that is pretty clear within 5e rules: Inspiration Gaining Inspiration (PHB page 125, might even be in the free PHB version): Your DM can choose to give you inspiration for a variety of reasons. Typically, DMs award it when you play out your personality traits, give in to the drawbacks presented by a flaw or bond, and otherwise portray your character in a compelling way. Your DM will tell you how you can earn inspiration in the game. You either have inspiration or you don’t-you can’t stockpile multiple “inspirations” for later use. So basically, in DnD 5e, role playing your character give you a mechanical advantage. If your character personality trait is: "I always have a plan for what to do when things go wrong" for example (the first personality of the criminal in the PHB) if you have a plan for combat (I consider combat as "thing goes wrong") you should gain inspiration "I can find common ground between the fiercest enemies, empathizing with them and always working toward peace" (acolyte personality from the PHB) you should technically have advantage whenever you try to persuation or deception check with a NPC that a failure would result in combat "I can stare down a hell hound without flinching" (Solider personality from the PHB) you should gain advantage when facing any strong ennemies without hesitation (so basically every round of combat) Sure it's at DM discretion and even by the must devote RAW follower I doubt you will receive advantage every round of combat you are facing a strong ennemy, but Inspiration should still be a reliable source of advantage, complimented with find familiar should be enought to provide advantage every round, specially if you take a personallity trait similar to "I've lost too many friends", if your familiar get killed you kind of lost of friend (if you roleplay your familiar as a friend) so if the ennemy kills it, you should gain inspiration to avenge him. I would love to see Inspiration talked about more, so more player (and specially more DM) learn to appreciate this mechanic and include it more often in their games. it's not an optional rule, it's simply a forgotten rule that too few DM uses. The game is build with Inspiration in mind. and considering the "You either have inspiration or you don’t-you can’t stockpile multiple “inspirations” for later use." I would assume that the RAI is that you could gain inspiration often so use it and regain it often. And no need to focus on "combat" personality trait. Even if you take "I'm used to heping out those who aren't as smart as I am, and I patiently explain anything and everything to others" (from the Sage in the PHB) you can easily use your free interaction to remind the barbarian about the plan "Now you go hit that big furry creature" and voila you should gain avantage (as said previously I wouldn't expect the DM to give you advantage every round for doing this, but maybe once or twice in a fight, when you are helping a player unsure about his action)
This character is incredible! Not only is it single-class and decently easy to run, but it's got utility out of combat with all the Rogue stuff and whatever ritual spells you find, AND it's super flavorful! And the flavor isn't just there only from the subclass, it's being built up and supported by pretty much everything that goes into this character! I'm currently 2-for-2 with spooky characters in the only current campaign I'm in, (and the current one is a Rogue too), so I'm probably doing something else if I have a third one, but I'm definitely keeping this one in my back pocket!
Yeah I'll admit to raising an eyebrow to that one too. At the same time, IMO, the idea of steadying yourself atop the eerily-still phantom steed that's bound to your very soul before taking your shot and then commanding it to move seems sort of reasonable. At least no less reasonable than forcing some crazy owl to zoom around the battlefield to score cheap hits. I'd probably only allow it if I felt the damage wouldn't massively outshine anyone else because there's not much stopping constant superadvantage otherwise. Riding in at 100ft/round to take a quick stab at your enemy with a rapier before looping back is even more thematically challenging, too. But you could still trigger sneak attack with your allied creature mount reliably. Someone did mention that Mounted Combatant would get you most of the way there for melee attacks, at least.
@@AmorphousUrsine Historically speaking when using slashing swords you would typically hold your weapon still and rely on the mounts speed and mass. This matches the style/flavor of steady aim for melee quite well. If you want a (slightly unscientific) source of historic combat information my first reccommandation would be shadiversaty and his video on centaurs fantasy re-armed, as for other sources of historical (mounted) combat in decending order scola gladiatoria, Lindybeige and Skallagrim. (if mounted combat is not the focus Skallagrim is still an excellent content source of content. You could also look at Metatron as he knows a lot too)
This is definitely a RAW vs RAI case. Considering you can only use steady aim if you haven't moved at all (and moving on a mount still means you moved, even if it didn't use your movement), I'm inclined to agree this isn't RAI.
"I don't think using Aim with a mount is RAI" ...miiiiight be but even if not it works RAW "Most of my DMs most likely wouldn't allow it" wow what types of DMs do u have? most DMs I know (myself included) would be excited to see such creative use of features...
There was a Sage Advice podcast on the D&D RUclips channel a couple years ago where JC explain that a controlled mount and its rider have separate turns in the sense that the mount has its own movement and set of actions, but that the mount's turn happens during the rider's turn. Because Steady Aim says you cannot have moved on your turn before using the bonus action (not cannot have used *your* movement), the only requirement technically is that they declare Steady Aim before they have their mount move on their turn. After that, their own speed becomes 0 which basically means they can't willingly dismount, but the mount is still free to continue to use its movement as directed. Generally speaking I think DMs should embrace their players finding and doing powerful things within the confines of the rules because it just means you can throw harder things at them. It also doesn't mean that every encounter will be well-designed for mounted combat. Talk to your players, know what their intentions are, and use that to help create an exciting and compelling story.
About Mounted Combatant, you missed a point, it’s even better: it doesn’t give te mount advantage on Dex saves, it gives the mount Evasion, which is much much better Edit: 27:27
There is a cheeky way to switch weapons on a round by round basis. You can tether your weapons to your clothes, such as your belt or studded leather, then when you drop your weapons for free they stay with you, and you can always use your object action to wield the weapon you're going to attack with. Or, you can just carry lots of extra weapons with you, they don't weigh nearly enough to encumber you, pack 10 rapiers and a few heavy Xbows with you; odd but nothing abnormal compared to lots of RPG inventories you'll see.
I would called it Ghost Rider but I am a comics fan. (There is a reason I keep a Phantom Steed mini beside my Wall of Force effect - I am a fan of this build) Great job Ramen_Goblin!
Phantom has always been my favourite rogue subclass. My first rogue was a reborn phantom called serenity, who tried to bring peace to the dead and find out why he came back.
The highest DPR rogue build and it just happens to be on the edgiest subclass, literally a "phantom on a phantom steed" stealing souls. You can't even avoid comparisons to Death.
Seeing way too many comments on RAI. RAI is something that only applies to the development side not the player side. Only RAW matters to players. It’s game design 101. DMs will rule as they may but concerning yourself with RAI is a waste of time.
Here, HERE! Straight classed (no dips), just Feats and a spell. I can see this built number of ways to be almost as effective. I love the flavour and requires minimal reskining.
Another good feat choice, one that's probably not used much otherwise, might be Fighting Initiate to grab the fighting style of Defensive. Extra +1 AC. After all, if you used one feat for the stated main purpose to get that (the +2 Dex), then why not double up?
I considered getting archery style via fighting initiate in the guide. While it moderately decreases miss rate, it does less than you think for your average damage (you can check out the math in the Google doc linked in the description). A flat bonus to accuracy does way less for a build that doesn't tank its attack bonus with Sharpshooter, and does a lot less for a build that has super advantage on every attack roll. You can see this in the damage calculations in the guide jumping from lvl 9 to lvl 10. Your DEX increases but your damage barely improves.
@@mrbean3470 Expanded crit range is so so bad. Worse than I expected before I did the damage simulations using my Anydice tool (linked in the guide link in the description). It increases your average damage per round at level 9 vs 16 AC by 3 damage. Not worth the dipping and delaying sneak attack progression or any of the strong late phantom features.
@@Torthrodhel I see, sorry, I read so many people suggesting archery fighting style. Defensive fighting style is nice, but I'm genuinely unsure if it's worth a feat. Defense is something I can't model well. Generally, this build is attempting to avoid being attacked all together, so I don't know if boosting from AC 17 to AC 18 is more important than my other recommendations. I if it was from AC 20 to AC 21 that would be different. Although Ghost Walk is really really good if you can get a high AC.
Honestly, they aren't that optimal. They are clear compromise builds where they are neither as good as a straight paladin nor as good as a straight sorcerer but have versatility to fill both roles.
Isn't there a problem with time to continually cast Phantom Steed? Casting time 1 minute + 10 minutes as ritual cast for spell that only last 1 hour. If you are using this for 2 steeds that 22 minutes of each hour (36%) you are casting rituals while the other party members, monsters and the D&D world sit and wait? I know this wouldn't fly in any of my campaigns as a player or DM before the time requirement would impact the campaign results. Even if only casting once per hour a 18.3% slow down of the parties progress for the benefit of 1 player seems unrealistic.
It's generally considered possible to cast rituals while riding. Thus you can cast it 5 times per hour to allow your whole party to move at the increased speed. Your DM may see it differently of course. I would likely give you disadvantage on Perception checks while moving in such fashion.
In the session I played it didn't bother folks. I think mostly because I roleplayed the ritual castings, and gave it some fun flavor for people to enjoy. If it ends up being tedious at your table, I think you'd be wise to read the room and use it more sparingly. You don't need to be neurotically casting it so there is absolutely no down time -- you're plenty effective if you're caught without a steed. I'd actually recommend traveling with a living horse, who can carry your things, serve as a mount when you're taken by surprise, and serve as one of your phantom steeds if it dies. Ritual Casting is something you do when you're suiting up for a dungeon or refilling your trinkets during a rest.
Good point, my long time DM has never let players cast rituals except as part of a short or long rest (we kinda did it to ourselves by casting augury before we went down every hallway, etc), which is probably completely their judgement, but it does limit rituals as something you can't just do all day everyday, but hey why bring practicality into a build that requires riding a horse all the time to be effective, appreciate it for what it is!
The loss of haste should have caused the rouge to be stunned for one round. So one round should have been 0. Unless your table doesn’t use that stun condition with haste.
26:15 the other strong option you always have with shadow touch is disguise self, very fun spell and pairs great with invisibility. While invisible infiltrate and observe an NPC (ideally some kind of leader) with any creativity, roll play and a reasonable DM, it is very powerful in many situations.
Use Disquise self to transformar into the grim reaver at the start of combat, or when you capture a soul trinket, and throw in some fear, intimidation tactics into the mix
I'm curious as to if a champion fighter 3 dip is worth it for those last few levels to make your chance to crit absurd. Normally crit damage isnt worth building for but for what you get those last couple levels it might be worth it for action surge (hold action to attack next turn) and expanded crit range with that super advantage
Thanks for this video, I was considering choosing phantom in my current campaign and this sold it. I'm going to scale it back a bit by using a longbow, though, both for flavor and because my group doesn't really optimize too much.
The flavor here is top-notch, very refreshing for an optimized character. Purely mechanically, I wondered if Steady Aim + Mount are critical to this build? Seems like any source of near-permanent Advantage (and a strong backup source of Advantage) should work identically in terms of damage results. I was only able to come up with one workable alternative, but I don't think it is nearly as good: Take a 2 levels of Wildfire Druid. Gain a Familiar PLUS a Wildfire Spirit. You lose 1D6 sneak attack progression but gain reliable Advantage on a re-summonable (but not infinitely) pet. You get back a feat but slow your progression getting to Level 9's Tokens of the Departed feature. This comes online a bit sooner and has more versatility but loses a lot of steam at higher levels. Would love to see more cool builds analyzed like this one was! Good stuff.
I think the two advantages of Phantom over that are that it works in a game that doesn't include multiclassing and that you get full Sneak Attack every round.
As long as you are not suffering disadvantage at range you don't need the mount. I believe some of the features of Phantom Rogue require you to be within 30 ft. which is why the mount is essential. Still have a hard time believing this build is RAW but 5e has so many quirks, like Lucky 😅 Confirmed: The level 9 ability, "Tokens of the Departed," requires you to be within 30ft of the slain creature to acquire the token.
You could use a familiar to get the advantage, but that only lasts as long as your owl familiar can stay alive, which depends on the battlefield, and enemies. There are other ways to gain advantage, but they are a lot harder generally, steady aim is basically easy mode, and riff with so called abuse cases.
I love this build. I want to try it. Rogues need some upgrades in One DnD. Multiple attacks, added speed, unarmored defense stuff, etc… Thanks Chris, this one made my list of have to try character builds.
The thumbnail for this video says "achieves over triple baseline damage", actually, the damage caps at +299% of baseline, so just under triple. I originally had the damage over 300% before I checked my work.
You lying monster!
Haha, excited to see it regardless :)
299% is Close enough for government work.
Clickbaited again, for shame. Next thing we know, you'll be making wacky faces in the thumbnails.
I kid, I kid :-)
speaking of mounted builds i remember you did a mounted paladin build in the past. But I can't find the video. Can you link it to me ?
@@smile-tl9in Might you be referring to his Glory Paladin build? ruclips.net/video/nC3A76XahTo/видео.html
i love any build that clowns on crossbow expert/sharpshooter so this gets an A+
It should be noted that the 'build' is really just a Rogue with Elven Accuracy and a way of getting reliable Advantage. This can be done on a CE/SS too and will boost it similarly. You wouldn't use CE/SS for Phantom because the Bonus Action is being used (so no CE), and the damage per attack is far too high for SS (you want multiple weaker attacks for SS to add value).
@@RJWhitmore however, a big part of what makes it effective is the ability to spread that huge nuke across two targets, which you need phantom for
Really clever use of Ritual Caster. Non-caster classes gaining potent magics through it is one of my favorite things.
even non wizard options are great. Choosing cleric class for the ritual caster feat with all those divination spells is great. and forbiddance in many settings can be of much help.
For me, Magic Initiate and ritual caster are my two favorite feats.
only thing i have is the constant casting of phantom stead you have to do to have the mount at all times.
the one odd thing is that it only lasts for an hour which can be a pain.
Thematically and damage-wise this would be a fantastic villain to terrorize an overconfident party.
As you all push along the old path towards the ruined fort, shrouded by nightfall, your hear the unmistakable sound of hoof beats approaching. It is distant at first, but their heavy rhythm rapidly overtakes you as a spectre comes to block the path ahead. As he raises his visage to face you from under his hood, he brings to bear a contraption of iron and wood that must surely be thrice as heavy as the light hunting crossbow you have with you. Under the shroud of his hood, vengeful eyes meet your gaze. "You should not have come here," comes the guttural growl "Your soul is mine!"
Roll initiative.
I think it's also worth mentioning that this build doesn't need to get a reaction Sneak Attack every round to achieve this damage, which is very impressive.
That's because wails from the grave is just a better version of sentinel on a rouge not needing to be with in fight feat or wait for an ally to take damage.
Getting his tokens does take him those reactions though. Also, as you can see (7:45) even though haste ended after either round 6 or after round 7 of combat, he never skipped his turn. If he had, rogue's dpm would have probably been lowered thanks to the casting of haste.
@@Olav_Hansen Excellent point.
@@Olav_Hansen My interpretation re: ending Haste is that the 12 rounds of combat were not a single encounter. So the Rogue had Haste up until the end of one encounter, and then didn't have Haste for the next encounter.
@@YoungLink314 Okay that part is possible. But it's important to remember that if you are hasted, you will do more damage but you won't be restocking those trinkets.
If I’m not mistaken, you could use your free casting of Invisibility on your Phantom Steed. Attacks against it will have disadvantage, giving it some extra defence and your mount doesn’t make attacks so Invisibility won’t end from that part of the spell. Plus riding an invisible mount would make you appear as this intimidating floating reaper flying around the battlefield at 100ft per round.
that's a really cool idea!
Ooo that also means it can always dash, and doesn't need to disengage. Cool idea. You're going to love that invisibility while scouting with ghost walk, but this is another strong use, especially if you want to uses melee more often.
FWIW the steed has an AC of 10. Most things are going to hit that at level 4 unless they roll very low. By mid-game the horse is always getting hit unless the attacking creature rolls a 1.
Still a cool idea, though, and packed with flavor.
@@PiroMunkie no attack of opportunity if they can't see the creature.
@@knurspgaming1681 Quote from the combat section regarding opportunity attacks: You can make an Opportunity Attack when a Hostile creature *that you can see* moves out of your reach. -So they do not meet the triggering criteria. -For additional confirmation regarding the trigger, under the invisible condition: An invisible creature *is impossible to see* without the aid of magic or a Special sense.
I like that this build illustrates how important accuracy is for damage. It does the exact same amount of peak damage as a generic straight phantom rogue, but the ability to practically steady aim every round with elven accuracy drives the real numbers through the roof.
I remember an old cowboy saying "a .22 that hits hurts more than a .45 that misses"
Yeah, there's a reason why a lot of the highest damage builds involve subclasses that boost accuracy (e.g. battlemaster using precision attack).
There's definitely a double dip with elven accuracy on a rogue that consistently gains advantage. Yeah, accuracy is extremely important to damage, but on a rogue elven accuracy is also very good at crit fishing, and crits on a rogue are substantial.
The ElvAcc and Steady Aim are really doing all the heavy lifting here when ranged, with Phantom just adding in some damage to a secondary target (if one exists). If looking at the melee damage, you can add in Booming Blade to that. Sure, at 17 you can add the Phantom's Wailing Grave to a single target - if you reach that in your campaign.
I think this needs to be said, because this build will effectively work just fine on any Rogue subclass with no damage lost on a single target. For some, like Arcane Trickster, you could do more single-target damage. Alternatively, if we are going to look at multiple-target damage and compare that to a single-target damage baseline (which is what Chris has done here with Wailing Grave), then a simple Fireball aught to outdamage this (or various other AOE/Multiple-Target spells).
Not saying Phantom is bad here, it is just the cherry on top that could be swapped out for another fruit of your choice. That's a good thing, actually.
I initially thought this might suffer a bit in the cramped conditions common in dungeons, but even squeezing the horse still has 50ft of movement before dashing.
Oh wow, that's just crazy.
Depends on the DM, I am paying an Undead Warlock who has Phantom Steed, on a West Marches campaign. So basically, I am playing with several DMs. However, they always do not allow me to get the Steed inside the Dungeon or cave. I have played it with possibly ten different DMs and none of them have ever allowed me to get the Steed on interiors or caves... so yeah.
Never thought I’d see the day when a rogue deals good damage, without being insanely vulnerable on defense. Kudos to Ramen Goblin, and thanks for sharing this effective and flavorful build!
The Arcane Tricksters would like to say hello! But this build is very impressive.
@@itspabbs I’ve got no beef with the arcane trickster, but it doesn’t really have good defense or damage to speak of. Great utility though.
For example, at level 5, an arcane trickster with booming blade and a rapier can expect to deal 2d8+3d6+4 (23.5) damage on a hit, occasionally getting some Booming blade secondary damage to pump that to 32.5.
Meanwhile, a subclassless monk with a quarterstaff is dealing 2d8+1d6+12 (24.5) damage on all hits, and can FoB to get an extra 1d6+4 for 32 damage. However, this has the very large advantage of being spread out over many attacks - a rogue dealing 20 damage to finish off an foe with 10 hp effectively only had 10 damage that round, while a monk that spent their first two attacks downing a foe can spend their last 1-2 damaging another one.
The point of this isn’t to advocate for monks, but mostly to say that if the AT’s offensive prowess is comparable-to-inferior to a generic monk, it doesn’t really have much going for it.
@@mikebieser4175 that's assuming they all hit where an Arcane Trickster can essentially guarantee their one attack is made with advantage. Also, cunning action disengage further increases the likelihood that the target will take the Booming Blade damage. You can play your Monk. I'd rather play the rogue.
@@itspabbs no shame for playing whatever you want. But no matter how you slice it, your damage is in the same league as a generic monk. Add a subclass and feats to the monk and the rogue starts falling behind.
Not that I’m advocating monks in particular. Frankly, rangers do virtually everything rogues do, but better, so if we’re talking optimization, you can play your rogue. I’d rather play the ranger.
@@mikebieser4175 I think that a "Zen Archer" Monk using Focused Aim, Sharpshooter, and Ki Fueled Attacks would be at least on par with a Hand Crossbow specialized Battle Master using Precision Attack. Granted, I haven't done any DPR calculations there.
This was awesome. Seeing a singleclass rogue shine is very nice, and not only it dosen't need to give up utility but actually has more than a standard rogue. Love it 100%
Plus beeing single attack focused if you have an order domain cleric or other ways to make out of turn attacks things get even crazyer
An important note here is that I believe Ritual Caster is only needed for self-sufficiency here. If the party has a Wizard, I think the build still works making use of Phantom Steeds they provide you.
True! Teamwork! I think that Ritual Caster still brings a lot to the build outside of Phantom Steed. Many rituals synergize with the Double Phantom's utility and flavor.
Ramen speaks truth. You can't understate the utility and the beneficial action economy effects of the additional party find familiars enabled by ritual caster.
A bit less flavorful he will feel like a teenager asking his dad for the car during the weekend
I mean, you can get 20 dex at level 8 if you convince your wizard to cast it for you.
just ride the druid into battle
I’ve preached this build for so long. I am so glad that it’s actually getting recognition
Nice. I never realized how much expandable ritual caster is. It's really good.
How do you get around the fact that Phantom Steed only lasts 1 hour and requires 11 minutes to recast ritually?
@@T3hIluvatar You can ritual cast while riding
10:41 can we talk about how even the roleplay is optimized?
The idea of getting your beloved pet killed just to optimize the narrative impact of phantom steed is just *chef's kiss*
Taking Ritual Caster for Phantom Steed is brilliant. I never would have thought to try that.
I love this. Would love more single-class builds.
I kind of love how beautifully simple this is.
I love the synergy between the rogue single attack non-feature and not getting the crossbow expert feat.
Lol
I don't understand why he doesn't get sharp shooter, it's the equivalent of a d20 extra dmg, he already gets to roll 3 d20's for attacks
@@Charles-ij1ow remember this is a lvl 9 build so that would be really good at level 10 tho
@@owenduffy5745 At 12:37 he says not to get SS because it will miss so it would lower our overall dmg, but 3d20's is still a good chance to get 10 extra dmg, I mean 94% chance to hit without it is ridiculously high, but I guess it's better to get multiple horses to run in and out of range with but that just seams so cheesy.
@@Charles-ij1ow I did the math with a base chance of 60% to hit, elven accuracy, a d8 weapon, +5 dex modifier and 5d6 sneak.
with sharpshooter, you get around 1.5 extra points of damage per round. Lower AC enemies will be in favor of SS, while higher AC will be better for no SS. Higher AC are the ones that are probably more important, and even a 1.5 points of dpr is hardly worth a feat. Also, consistency is often worth more than a 1.5 points in dpr. In higher levels, you will end up wanting to use the all-in even less. However, SS also has range upgrade, and anti-cover, so this feat is still pretty good, although not core to the build
I don't normally comment. I try to avoid the drama. BUT!!! Bravo Raman_goblin. Thank-you to Chris for sharing this with the world. Gods been following Treant's guides since 3.5
1.) I see a lot of people calling Shennanigans. Calling deliberate manipulation of the RAW. That the RAI are being broken. Ok. I get that. Chris did say "Talk to your GM." Its a game. Ask, make your arguement and deal with it.
2.) Given I tend to go more caster focused in my characters, I am happy to see a Martial come out on top for once. And people who say RAI over RAW. Fine. 2 points to consider Wish and Time Stop. Yes higher level, ok level 5 spells still far more powerful than this damage out put at level 9. Its a fantasy game in a fantasy world and your trying to argure real world limitations in it.
Bravo raman, and thank you Treant.
I personally won't judge if it's RAW/RAI. Sources I trust say this is a possible use case, but there is one thing to consider. Steady Aim is an optional feature, meaning what the build hinges on for easy, reliable damage isn't something you can always take. Particularly, I wouldn't assume you could take it while playing a strong race/subclass, which elf/half-elf, and phantom both are.
Always thought folk slept on the Phantom a bit. But pairing it with Steady Aim on a mount, that's pretty shrewd.
I always thought Phantom was a good subclass, though the players I know who took it chaffed at the small number of uses of Wails at low levels. But honestly Phantom gives Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler a run for their money. Though I disagree with the interpretation that Phantom Steeds 'die' when the spell ends (i.e. when they take damage), same with most summoned creatures RAW they generally just vanish back to their home plane they don't 'die' so can't be used to refill trinkets.
@@agilemind6241 It's always good to have a conversation with your DM, and I flag that in the build when I mention the technique. My assumption when discussing that techniques is that the spell states that it creates a creature and that the creature has the statistics of a riding horse, with some exceptions. Statistics would include 13 HP, which I can guarantee you can achieve in one hit lol. A DM might reasonably rule that the part of the spell that describes the creature fading as a result of taking damage overrides the general rule about creatures dying when they reach 0 HP. With either interpretation, we're in the realm of rulings, not rules as written.
@@ram3n_goblin great build but it's an illusion, quasi real so I am also unconvinced it can die (it may have vreature stats but isn't alive). Still works great though, ice one :)
@@jiminkpen9750 Any damage to the Steed will end the spell.
I have been working on builds for weeks as well as watching hundreds of videos trying to find a build that fits my minds eye for my character. THIS! THIS is my vision personified. Liked, subed, bell. Every word spoken brought my idea to life. 🎉
I already loved the phantom rogue for its flavor and features, having such a powerful build to go along with it just puts it over the top. What good subclass
I always get especially excited when go to battlemaps... always my favorite part. really helps imagine how it will play at table!
Yeah. When the maps come out that's my favorite part too.
I could tell from your excitement at the start that this was going to be an awesome build.
I love this build. Power, flavour, backup plans, utility, and even some options for customization.
i was just looking for a phantom rouge build. great timing
Perfect!
I’m just staring the video, but how cool is the title “Double Phantom” very cool
I guess it’s a pretty good concentration breaker as well
Indeed, spellcasters lose concentration when they die. :D
Thank you!! Amazing build I really want to see more pure martial builds shine
I love this build, ritual caster is a very overlooked feat and I love it. The synergy and theme here are amazing.
Tested and math'd builds. That's what we are here for!
My thief actually uses Steady Aim on almost every attack. She sits back with her bow and shoots. She lets everyone else move. She doesn't have anything else to do with her bonus action anyway because her primary damage, sneak attack, can only be done once per turn anyway. And her bow can hit just about anything from anywhere, so movement is generally irrelevant. I'm sure doing this mounted is great, but even without the mounted build, this is great too. I'm not sure why everyone thinks rogues need to move so much. Just get some melee characters in your party and sit back, relax, and do sneak attack damage.
The issue is mostly other ranged attackers who may target you. Though really depends what your DM is throwing at you.
@@Tethra043 Yes, multiple opponents, attacking from random directions in waves can also be a problem. Then, there is the concern of assassins. If a sniper is ambushed, unless they are close to their companions, they wind up in a furious 1 on 1 struggle. Being forced to make death saves while your team is running towards your position makes for harrowing edge of the seat gameplay though
@@pranakhan good thing this build rolls death saves at advantage (and could just phase into the ground if ambushed)
I think the problem is that most theorycrafted ranged rogues rely heavily on crossbow expert bonus attacks. Since steady aim competes with that BA slot most people just have a prejudice against it
I think the mount is primarily good here for being able to get in range of token aquisition.
Thanks for this amazing build! Totally gonna try it!
Oh, the ghost rider. I love it when a well-optimised build has good flavour to go with it.
Me too!
I love how you are truthful with what you thought prior at every step.. Ever since I saw the name Ramengoblin in the beginning of a video of yours a while back I knew they had to be pretty cool bc the name is awesome 👌
Really really beautiful build! I never considered the possibility of ritual caster to take phantom steed.
I was actually looking for a pg for a campaign and was evaluating a Rogue Phantom, High Elf or Shadar-Kai, Elven Accuracy but with Crossbow Expert to launch a Net as action and Sneak atk as bonus, gaining not only triple advantage on the attack but also restraining the target (you lose the fast speed of the Steed but gain a really good control option).
My brother and I been talking about co-op building and your DO IT ALL Sorcerer and this seem perfect.
I brought this build starting at fifth level to my adventure leagues group they hadn’t seen anything like it or how I was getting 3d20 on my attack rolls with steady aim and Elvin accuracy,I haven’t missed an attack in eight hours of playing this character
Ritual caster. A seriously underused feat for martials.
This, is weirdly, my new favorite necromancy build.
"From levels 1 - 8, you're just a normal rogue."
Well... fuck, that's most the game. Still a really cool build though
Wow, what an insane build 😅 Thats really cool.
I've been toying with a build similar to this. I was going for a "Mongol" mounted archer style build. I'm definitely thinking about borrowing some of this builds ideas to incorporate into the Mongol style and throw some dark shaman into it to flavor it up. Great build tho props to the guy who built it originally
Straight class builds, yes!
That is really clever and unexpected!
Ultimately I think the problem with RAI interpretations is the name chosen, if I were to allow this I would theme it as "Focused Aim" where the rogue is focused so much on their attack they forgo any other non-free action (movement/bonus). I feel this better fits the RAW implications.
I think this build just stole my heart
Happy Valentine's Day
I guess the other thing which strikes me about this is that it seems so obvious in retrospect. I mean, who'd ever suspect that doing an extra 10d6 worth of damage each round would blow away all other damage dealers?
Of course doing d8 + 5 + 3d8 + 10d6 damage, or "only" d10 + 5 + 10d6 damage, is going to surpass everything. I think what it illuminates is how important miss chance is to overall damage calculations in general, and Rogue balance in particular. The combination of Elven Accuracy and Steady Aim trivializes the process of hitting, so all that damage just happens.
"I guess the other thing which strikes me about this is that it seems so obvious in retrospect. I mean, who'd ever suspect that doing an extra 10d6 worth of damage each round would blow away all other damage dealers?"
I mean, as someone who was critical of the phantom at launch, I've definitely been proven wrong on some points, and I'm happy that I learned something.
But.......I think this won't work at every table.
My original criticism went like this:
* Phantom's a terrible subclass below level 9. (This is still true--and relevant for me since I've been in campaigns that didn't get to level 9).
* I thought most DMs would not allow bag of rats shenanigans.
* I thought needing to be in 30 feet to catch a soul trinkets might be very limiting--especially if enemies die on other party member's turns instead of yours.
* I thought using your reaction to replenish soul trinkets would conflict with other uses of your reaction. For example order cleric giving you a reaction attack for a second sneak attack, or haste giving you a reaction attack with a held action for a second sneak attack.
(Actually...how did ramen_goblin avoid running out of soul trinkets? They were hasted for several turns, so would be losing soul trinket each of those turns. Huh...maybe they did run out of soul trinkets and that's why their damage dropped down to 23-25 on turns 11 and 12? Not sure).
I do think if a DM wanted to keep this build in-check, making players work for soul trinkets should achieve that. You don't get soul trinkets back on a short or long rest--only replenished through in-combat reactions--and reactions aren't free. (The difference between bag of rats and not bag of rats for phantom is huge).
There were things I for sure missed in my first look at Phantom, though, namely...
* Steady Aim is good even without elven accuracy--like comparable to a bonus action attack (and busted with elven accuracy). (I had started to notice this, but I didn't think to combine it with Phantom--all of phantom's damage triggers from a single attack roll, so one extremely accurate attack roll has excellent synergy).
* Mounted combat can negate the movement penalty of steady aim (I didn't figure out this one at all)
* Mounted combat, if you can get a kill on your turn can make it trivial to move in to get soul trinkets while maintaining safe distance.
* Mounted combat lets your horse disengage, which allows you to also apply booming blade while doing steady aim and maintaining a safe distance
Mixing in mounted combat to work around the 0 movement is really clever.
(I do think some DMs might make a RAI ruling to say that you can't be mounted while using steady aim, though. Like...if you need to stand still to be an accurate sniper, it doesn't make a ton of sense that you can be an accurate sniper while riding a sprinting horse. Firing an arrow from horseback sounds very hard--horseback rides are bumpy).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath One of the strengths of the build, imho, is that nearly all of it is optional. Elven Accuracy, Ritual Caster, and a Cantrip are essentially all you need.
Doesn't really need to be Phantom, but it does give extra cleave damage. Any other subclass for utility ought to work nearly as well for most levels against the main target.
As to having enough trinkets for consistency, I might not have expected it, but that's something that probably becomes clearer at table than on paper. I don't think it was rats specifically, tho. Horses summoned by Phantom Steed as a buffer, but mostly from killing.
As to Steady Aim on mount... I think the biggest thing is directing the horse. Riding on a boat or a cart or chariot seems reasonable. But moving on something while driving rather than a passenger would be harder. There were a lot of horse archers and chariot archers historically, so it isn't a massive stretch. I also like ramen goblin's explanation that given all the broken stuff casters do, letting a rogue do something that RAW works should be acceptable.
@@thebitterfig9903 Even ritual caster is optional if you have a wizard in the party who is willing to help you using it's familiar, and who will summon a phantom steed for you.
Going through this build again, and looking at the new 2024 rules.
Unless they make some crippling changes to feats, or some specific spells, this build might be even better with the new rules.
Probably my first PC to use when AL goes full into the 2024 updated rules.
Very impressive build!
You should see what diabolical things I'm cooking up with 2024.
If you ever have a character die around lvl 7-10, the phantom is a great character to come back with. Could even be the same character.
I misheard Ramen Goblin as Vomit Goblin when Treantmonk first said it. I'm gonna stick with Vomit Goblin because that damage is absolutely disgusting. Sweet build, I'll be looking into Ritual Caster for the rogue I'm currently playing.
I've been known to Vomit Goblin after eating too much ramen.
The only bad thinh about this build, which is a bad thing about Rogues in general, is that it only comes online after lvl 9. I think they could place the rogue second sub feature at lvl 7 instead of 9 in the new 2024 update. Great build tho, probably my next char
You get Steady Aim at Level 3 and Elven Accuracy at level 4. You may not be getting insane Wails damage or the ridiculous movement speed from a Phantom Steed at those levels, but you'll have the foundation for the build already -- triple advantage.
100%, I've wanted to play a Phantom rogue since day one but I was worried I'd feel subclassless for the majority of the level 1-13 campaign I was going for and ultimately chose against rogue all together. Strong or scaling level 3 features are what set Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler apart from the others moreso than any of their other features for me, imo.
@@commodoreblood It's good but isn't one of the best.
Your wish has been granted. They killed the rogue in the process, but, hey, you nailed that bit.
Only thing I could say against those damage numbers is that this build might be less buff-able than some other damage builds, as it's already using its own built-in advantage, but, holy heck, those are some great numbers, and the theme couldn't be more on-point.
Which makes it even better cause that's one less martial to have to worry about buffing.
Haste gives you a pretty reliable Reaction Sneak Attack (given triple advantage). I think that is the single most potent Buff for this build (or any Rogue really)
@@andrewkennedy5946 How are you getting advantage on the Reaction Attack?
@@kendrajade6688 Your Trigger is: "When my Owl scratches his face"
The edgiest boi in the graveyard. That's quite the serial killer there, and creepy to boot. Lucien Lachance would be proud.
very cool build. Granted when someone talk about amounted rogue I tend to think zorro. But you can pull off a very convincing headless horsman here. I think it beats your own best mounted build.....I can't find the video though
Or Ghost Rider with a chain whip and a flavored phantom steed.
Sneak attack first, ask questions of the dead later! 💀
Even more than the damage, I love the flavor of this build. I would probably go with the revised Shadar-Kai from Mordenkainen’s as a race, just to stick with the theme. Blessing of the Raven Queen also pairs well with Find Familiar to teleport past barriers through which you cannot see. Awesome! 👍🏻
Shadar-kai is going to be awesome for the double phantom, for sure. The teleporting past barriers eventually is unneeded, since at level 13 you have ghost walk.
Hurts the build missing Elven accuracy, but the earlier ritual caster and flavor are reasonable trade-offs in my opinion.
@@ram3n_goblin Yeah, but Ritual Caster would allow you to use this trick from 4th to 13th. That’s where most of my games end.
@@Puffinbar What hurts the build? Shadar-Kai is an Elf subrace. You could still take Elven Accuracy at 4th Level, or any ASI level thereafter, if you want. I would probably take it at 8th.
We usually allow a free feat at 1st Level, so our table works a little differently.
How do you get booming blade then this way?
(Jaw Drops) I'm speechless, that is an awesome build! Who would have thought a single class could do this with a crossbow. Thank you both for sharing!😃
Remember that Steady Aim is an optional feature. Sure, the results the build can produce are impressive, but it very much hinges a lot on Steady Aim for the ease with which it does it.
@@Jo-Heike That just means Mounted Combatant needs to be picked up earlier to get advantage on anything smaller than the Phantom Steed. It'll be harder to get the good numbers against larger targets, but it'll still be quite powerful.
@@occultnightingale1106 Mounted combatant is an optional rule.
@@Jo-Heike If we could compare the number of tables that don't use Optional Class Feats like Steady Aim, it would probably be somewhere similar to the number of tables that *do* use regular Feats like Mounted Combatant. Feats are "optional," but are functionally treated like a base-game mechanic, which cannot be said for the *Optional Class Feats* like Steady Aim.
What madness is this?! 💪
great job! I kept wanting to make a mounted rogue build, but i figured there was no reliable way to get a mount. I kept forgetting that phantom steed is a ritual and for some reason was under the impression that ritual caster only allows rituals of level 1. Steady aim is actually the perfect ability to synergize with a mount, in place of mounted combattant but without a feat. yeah very good
You automatically get level 1 spells for ritual caster, you'll have to rely on your DM to be able to obtain Phantom Steed from a scroll or spell book. At 9th level, that may not be too difficult if scrolls can be purchased or the party has made friends with someone who would have them.
You do have to get access to Phantom Steed in your ritual book somehow.
@@TreantmonksTemple most reliable way without DM making it accessible is having a wizard in your party who is willing to learn it on level up.
I think more than being a Rogue with this damage, I'm more into the fact that it's a themed build that gets this damage. I liked the number of times your assessment was "Also it works with the edgy aesthetic."
I've been watching a lot of build videos and guides over the past 2 months since getting really into DnD. But this one is thematically and mechanically the best one I've seen. It alows you to still be a roguey rogue, does damage and has tons of roleplay potential. Love it.
So much work just to gain advantage on 1 attack per turn...
Their is so many way to gain advantage (and his build have multiple ways easier then steady aim), but one that I very rarely hear about and that is pretty clear within 5e rules: Inspiration
Gaining Inspiration (PHB page 125, might even be in the free PHB version):
Your DM can choose to give you inspiration for a variety of reasons. Typically, DMs award it when you play out your personality traits, give in to the drawbacks presented by a flaw or bond, and otherwise portray your character in a compelling way. Your DM will tell you how you can earn inspiration in the game.
You either have inspiration or you don’t-you can’t stockpile multiple “inspirations” for later use.
So basically, in DnD 5e, role playing your character give you a mechanical advantage. If your character personality trait is:
"I always have a plan for what to do when things go wrong" for example (the first personality of the criminal in the PHB) if you have a plan for combat (I consider combat as "thing goes wrong") you should gain inspiration
"I can find common ground between the fiercest enemies, empathizing with them and always working toward peace" (acolyte personality from the PHB) you should technically have advantage whenever you try to persuation or deception check with a NPC that a failure would result in combat
"I can stare down a hell hound without flinching" (Solider personality from the PHB) you should gain advantage when facing any strong ennemies without hesitation (so basically every round of combat)
Sure it's at DM discretion and even by the must devote RAW follower I doubt you will receive advantage every round of combat you are facing a strong ennemy, but Inspiration should still be a reliable source of advantage, complimented with find familiar should be enought to provide advantage every round, specially if you take a personallity trait similar to "I've lost too many friends", if your familiar get killed you kind of lost of friend (if you roleplay your familiar as a friend) so if the ennemy kills it, you should gain inspiration to avenge him.
I would love to see Inspiration talked about more, so more player (and specially more DM) learn to appreciate this mechanic and include it more often in their games. it's not an optional rule, it's simply a forgotten rule that too few DM uses. The game is build with Inspiration in mind. and considering the "You either have inspiration or you don’t-you can’t stockpile multiple “inspirations” for later use." I would assume that the RAI is that you could gain inspiration often so use it and regain it often.
And no need to focus on "combat" personality trait. Even if you take "I'm used to heping out those who aren't as smart as I am, and I patiently explain anything and everything to others" (from the Sage in the PHB) you can easily use your free interaction to remind the barbarian about the plan "Now you go hit that big furry creature" and voila you should gain avantage (as said previously I wouldn't expect the DM to give you advantage every round for doing this, but maybe once or twice in a fight, when you are helping a player unsure about his action)
Love the Ghost Rider vibe to this build I immediately pulled out my copy of The Crow soundtrack & rocked out for awhile. Thanks
This character is incredible! Not only is it single-class and decently easy to run, but it's got utility out of combat with all the Rogue stuff and whatever ritual spells you find, AND it's super flavorful! And the flavor isn't just there only from the subclass, it's being built up and supported by pretty much everything that goes into this character! I'm currently 2-for-2 with spooky characters in the only current campaign I'm in, (and the current one is a Rogue too), so I'm probably doing something else if I have a third one, but I'm definitely keeping this one in my back pocket!
I don't think using Aim with a mount is RAI
Most of my DMs most likely wouldn't allow it
Yeah I'll admit to raising an eyebrow to that one too. At the same time, IMO, the idea of steadying yourself atop the eerily-still phantom steed that's bound to your very soul before taking your shot and then commanding it to move seems sort of reasonable. At least no less reasonable than forcing some crazy owl to zoom around the battlefield to score cheap hits. I'd probably only allow it if I felt the damage wouldn't massively outshine anyone else because there's not much stopping constant superadvantage otherwise.
Riding in at 100ft/round to take a quick stab at your enemy with a rapier before looping back is even more thematically challenging, too. But you could still trigger sneak attack with your allied creature mount reliably. Someone did mention that Mounted Combatant would get you most of the way there for melee attacks, at least.
@@AmorphousUrsine Historically speaking when using slashing swords you would typically hold your weapon still and rely on the mounts speed and mass. This matches the style/flavor of steady aim for melee quite well. If you want a (slightly unscientific) source of historic combat information my first reccommandation would be shadiversaty and his video on centaurs fantasy re-armed, as for other sources of historical (mounted) combat in decending order scola gladiatoria, Lindybeige and Skallagrim. (if mounted combat is not the focus Skallagrim is still an excellent content source of content. You could also look at Metatron as he knows a lot too)
This is definitely a RAW vs RAI case. Considering you can only use steady aim if you haven't moved at all (and moving on a mount still means you moved, even if it didn't use your movement), I'm inclined to agree this isn't RAI.
"I don't think using Aim with a mount is RAI" ...miiiiight be but even if not it works RAW
"Most of my DMs most likely wouldn't allow it" wow what types of DMs do u have? most DMs I know (myself included) would be excited to see such creative use of features...
@@jugglejunk shad gaaaaang xD
I'm just glad it's not another hand crossbow build! XD
It's rogue build, so that means I don't have to feel guilty stealing it, right?
Exactly, you're just getting into character.
There was a Sage Advice podcast on the D&D RUclips channel a couple years ago where JC explain that a controlled mount and its rider have separate turns in the sense that the mount has its own movement and set of actions, but that the mount's turn happens during the rider's turn.
Because Steady Aim says you cannot have moved on your turn before using the bonus action (not cannot have used *your* movement), the only requirement technically is that they declare Steady Aim before they have their mount move on their turn.
After that, their own speed becomes 0 which basically means they can't willingly dismount, but the mount is still free to continue to use its movement as directed.
Generally speaking I think DMs should embrace their players finding and doing powerful things within the confines of the rules because it just means you can throw harder things at them. It also doesn't mean that every encounter will be well-designed for mounted combat.
Talk to your players, know what their intentions are, and use that to help create an exciting and compelling story.
Most enjoyable build I found so far. This is pure music. Huge damage with a "soul".
About Mounted Combatant, you missed a point, it’s even better: it doesn’t give te mount advantage on Dex saves, it gives the mount Evasion, which is much much better
Edit: 27:27
And you can combine that Evasion with your mount taking the Dodge action, which gives advantage on Dex saves
I really, really like Ramen Goblin's point about ritual casting giving martials more options outside of combat!
There is a cheeky way to switch weapons on a round by round basis. You can tether your weapons to your clothes, such as your belt or studded leather, then when you drop your weapons for free they stay with you, and you can always use your object action to wield the weapon you're going to attack with. Or, you can just carry lots of extra weapons with you, they don't weigh nearly enough to encumber you, pack 10 rapiers and a few heavy Xbows with you; odd but nothing abnormal compared to lots of RPG inventories you'll see.
I would called it Ghost Rider but I am a comics fan. (There is a reason I keep a Phantom Steed mini beside my Wall of Force effect - I am a fan of this build) Great job Ramen_Goblin!
Phantom has always been my favourite rogue subclass. My first rogue was a reborn phantom called serenity, who tried to bring peace to the dead and find out why he came back.
Happy Valentines to my fellow Rogues out there. No matter what power building logic dictates - you matter 💝 💐 🥷
The highest DPR rogue build and it just happens to be on the edgiest subclass, literally a "phantom on a phantom steed" stealing souls. You can't even avoid comparisons to Death.
I’d take the Shadar-Kai race and a single dip into undead Warlock just for shear theme and undead Warlock’s first feature.
Glad I am not the only one who keeps track of campaign damage for the players as a DM :)
I am not maniac after all
2. Full combat statistics!!!
Seeing way too many comments on RAI. RAI is something that only applies to the development side not the player side. Only RAW matters to players. It’s game design 101. DMs will rule as they may but concerning yourself with RAI is a waste of time.
Wow. One of my favored builds of your channel so far. The flavor of this character brings it to the next level
Here, HERE! Straight classed (no dips), just Feats and a spell. I can see this built number of ways to be almost as effective. I love the flavour and requires minimal reskining.
Great video as always, really good to see some different play styles working well and still having a great theme. What a character
Another good feat choice, one that's probably not used much otherwise, might be Fighting Initiate to grab the fighting style of Defensive. Extra +1 AC. After all, if you used one feat for the stated main purpose to get that (the +2 Dex), then why not double up?
I considered getting archery style via fighting initiate in the guide. While it moderately decreases miss rate, it does less than you think for your average damage (you can check out the math in the Google doc linked in the description). A flat bonus to accuracy does way less for a build that doesn't tank its attack bonus with Sharpshooter, and does a lot less for a build that has super advantage on every attack roll. You can see this in the damage calculations in the guide jumping from lvl 9 to lvl 10. Your DEX increases but your damage barely improves.
@@ram3n_goblin, I wonder how viable increasing the crit range via champion/hexblade dip would be.
@@mrbean3470 Expanded crit range is so so bad. Worse than I expected before I did the damage simulations using my Anydice tool (linked in the guide link in the description). It increases your average damage per round at level 9 vs 16 AC by 3 damage. Not worth the dipping and delaying sneak attack progression or any of the strong late phantom features.
@@ram3n_goblin I meant for "defensive" fighting style, not for "archery" fighting style. For the extra +1 AC since you are wearing armor.
@@Torthrodhel I see, sorry, I read so many people suggesting archery fighting style. Defensive fighting style is nice, but I'm genuinely unsure if it's worth a feat. Defense is something I can't model well. Generally, this build is attempting to avoid being attacked all together, so I don't know if boosting from AC 17 to AC 18 is more important than my other recommendations. I if it was from AC 20 to AC 21 that would be different. Although Ghost Walk is really really good if you can get a high AC.
Can't wait to see some paladin/sorcadin guides from you, really wanna see exactly how optimal one can get
There will be 2 Soradin videos coming soon. Both are already done, will be released later this month.
@@TreantmonksTemple awesome! Looking forward to seeing them 😀
@@TreantmonksTemple 🙏🤞 Hoping we get the Sorcadin before my tables new campaign on Saturday. 🤞🙏
Honestly, they aren't that optimal. They are clear compromise builds where they are neither as good as a straight paladin nor as good as a straight sorcerer but have versatility to fill both roles.
Isn't there a problem with time to continually cast Phantom Steed? Casting time 1 minute + 10 minutes as ritual cast for spell that only last 1 hour. If you are using this for 2 steeds that 22 minutes of each hour (36%) you are casting rituals while the other party members, monsters and the D&D world sit and wait? I know this wouldn't fly in any of my campaigns as a player or DM before the time requirement would impact the campaign results. Even if only casting once per hour a 18.3% slow down of the parties progress for the benefit of 1 player seems unrealistic.
It's generally considered possible to cast rituals while riding. Thus you can cast it 5 times per hour to allow your whole party to move at the increased speed. Your DM may see it differently of course. I would likely give you disadvantage on Perception checks while moving in such fashion.
They do indeed need to wait, as they do with casting any ritual spell.
In the session I played it didn't bother folks. I think mostly because I roleplayed the ritual castings, and gave it some fun flavor for people to enjoy.
If it ends up being tedious at your table, I think you'd be wise to read the room and use it more sparingly. You don't need to be neurotically casting it so there is absolutely no down time -- you're plenty effective if you're caught without a steed. I'd actually recommend traveling with a living horse, who can carry your things, serve as a mount when you're taken by surprise, and serve as one of your phantom steeds if it dies. Ritual Casting is something you do when you're suiting up for a dungeon or refilling your trinkets during a rest.
Good point, my long time DM has never let players cast rituals except as part of a short or long rest (we kinda did it to ourselves by casting augury before we went down every hallway, etc), which is probably completely their judgement, but it does limit rituals as something you can't just do all day everyday, but hey why bring practicality into a build that requires riding a horse all the time to be effective, appreciate it for what it is!
I love seeing full damage builds that arent just relying on one big nova attack on round one.
Hello again Chris! I'm about 6 minutes in, happy for the company while i walk around work! 💜 Hope your day is an awesome one!
The loss of haste should have caused the rouge to be stunned for one round. So one round should have been 0.
Unless your table doesn’t use that stun condition with haste.
I think there were multiple combats
There were multiple combats. The PC never lost a turn due to haste ending during a combat.
@@TreantmonksTemple my mistake. I must have missed that. I thought it was all one combat.
@@davidjohnson4657 yeah, I was wondering myself “what the heck were they fighting that survived 12 rounds of that kind of beatdown?”
Had a Phantom Rogue Dhampir with Steady Aim. It did ridiculous damage.
EDIT: Forgot to add, he had Elven Accuracy
26:15 the other strong option you always have with shadow touch is disguise self, very fun spell and pairs great with invisibility. While invisible infiltrate and observe an NPC (ideally some kind of leader) with any creativity, roll play and a reasonable DM, it is very powerful in many situations.
Use Disquise self to transformar into the grim reaver at the start of combat, or when you capture a soul trinket, and throw in some fear, intimidation tactics into the mix
Disguise in a headless rider!
I'm curious as to if a champion fighter 3 dip is worth it for those last few levels to make your chance to crit absurd. Normally crit damage isnt worth building for but for what you get those last couple levels it might be worth it for action surge (hold action to attack next turn) and expanded crit range with that super advantage
Ghost Rider's ancestor build looking SPICY
Again, many thanks to ramen goblin.
I love this! I enjoy using Rogues with mounts! :D
there is also the option of martial adept for a feat
(archery)
You know somebody is a good player when you get jealous of another DM for having them at their table.
I'd play at your table too 👉👈
@@ram3n_goblin Up for a game of Saltmarsh?
Thanks for this video, I was considering choosing phantom in my current campaign and this sold it. I'm going to scale it back a bit by using a longbow, though, both for flavor and because my group doesn't really optimize too much.
The flavor here is top-notch, very refreshing for an optimized character.
Purely mechanically, I wondered if Steady Aim + Mount are critical to this build? Seems like any source of near-permanent Advantage (and a strong backup source of Advantage) should work identically in terms of damage results. I was only able to come up with one workable alternative, but I don't think it is nearly as good: Take a 2 levels of Wildfire Druid. Gain a Familiar PLUS a Wildfire Spirit. You lose 1D6 sneak attack progression but gain reliable Advantage on a re-summonable (but not infinitely) pet. You get back a feat but slow your progression getting to Level 9's Tokens of the Departed feature. This comes online a bit sooner and has more versatility but loses a lot of steam at higher levels. Would love to see more cool builds analyzed like this one was! Good stuff.
I think the two advantages of Phantom over that are that it works in a game that doesn't include multiclassing and that you get full Sneak Attack every round.
As long as you are not suffering disadvantage at range you don't need the mount. I believe some of the features of Phantom Rogue require you to be within 30 ft. which is why the mount is essential. Still have a hard time believing this build is RAW but 5e has so many quirks, like Lucky 😅
Confirmed: The level 9 ability, "Tokens of the Departed," requires you to be within 30ft of the slain creature to acquire the token.
You could use a familiar to get the advantage, but that only lasts as long as your owl familiar can stay alive, which depends on the battlefield, and enemies. There are other ways to gain advantage, but they are a lot harder generally, steady aim is basically easy mode, and riff with so called abuse cases.
I love this build. I want to try it.
Rogues need some upgrades in One DnD.
Multiple attacks, added speed, unarmored defense stuff, etc…
Thanks Chris, this one made my list of have to try character builds.
Good timing I was thinking about the phantom rogue this morning, was similar but never thought of a phantom mount, very cool
You can't choose Phantom Steed when you take Ritual Caster as it's not first level, you'd have to find/buy a scroll. Still a great build though!
In addition to the good damage, it has what I consider to be brilliant flavor.