I listen to him on my phone, and when it started I pulled the phone from my coat pocket to skip what I thought was an obnoxious ad... then realized what it was and 🤣
I've used a Floating Disk/Phantom Steed combo that basically made a "Phantom Wagon." The rider casts Floating Disk, since it is distance capped at 20ft and not speed capped, it moves along behind the mount. You could technically chain it and have a whole wagon train pulled by one steed.
In my party we did that with our Moon Druid and my Wizard. A Vedalken on a Dire wolf with a floating Warforged in a lotus position gallping towards a village leaves an unforgettable first impression.
@@gamepsychnunya273 Considering the absolute chaotic stupid personality of our Warforged (my Wizard is very intolerant of that) and that he pulled a Darth Vaider in ESB on our Druid, you are pretty much on point. Though it would take us 15 more sessions to find that out.
We actually used this in my last DnD game. Phantom steeds + fast pace + galloping + Beast totem (elk at 6) gave us mounts with a speed of 52 mph. What should have taken half a day instead took an hour.
Seems like the totem barbarian would be a good candidate for the ritual caster (wizard) feat. I'll have to keep that in mind the next time I play a barbarian
Thank you for this video Treantmonk, you wouldn't believe how many Phantom Steed questions I've had to answer as a result of the Double Phantom build. Or, perhaps you are the only person who would believe me!
As for galloping, in Chapter 8 of the DMG, under the "Special Travel Pace" section, it specifically states that riding a Phantom Steed is not considered "normal" movement. Therefore, my understanding is that you couldn't use the galloping rules as it is not normal movement. Later in that section, it also reiterates that you can move 7, 10, or 13 miles and hour with it.
shenanigans : Pool the parties gold and buy a wagon. You now have a vehicle for the party, can hold more than a bag of holding, and you could argue a form of cover in combat. Your wizard now is in charge of summoning PS which comes with all the bridles for the cart. (assuming you buy a yoke with the cart). This also works with a medium mount and a chariot using the beast of burden rules.
I had this idea and another player at the table told me it would take close to the hour duration just to get the horses properly strapped to the wagon. I don't know anything about horses so I took her word for it.
We've done this in my current campaign. The artificer made it, and we call it the Battle Wagon. His Steel Defender is generally the one pulling it. It's free cover, free movement, and a great place to sling spells from. It doesn't come with us into dungeons but it has still been invaluable in several encounters.
Unrelated shenanigan: At first I read "pool the parties gold" as "POOL PARTY"! I was trying to think what you could do with a Phantom Steed at a Pool Party!
Other than my inability to read, it's like using a Mount in Skyrim. You can only take it places it can go, and you have to make sure no one kills the wagon/mount. But it sure helps when Encumbrance is an issue!!
I always thought that the duration should for this spell should be 8 hours, as one of the main purposes of the spell is to provide a mount for travel. This way you could spend a little less than an hour in the morning to mount your party for the day. In combat kiting with the 100' movement may be an issue. Sure, you could just ritual recast every hour, but that is cumbersome and I don't really see the point having to do that constantly.
The Cult Boon of Zariel allows a Cult leader to swap its allies initiatives around immediately after initiative is rolled. Only an exception to the rule on a technicality, but hey. It's all I could think of.
People are really sleeping on Phantom Steed. Moving at 200ft is close to being invulnerable as you can end every turn 100+ ft away and behind full cover.
0:49 You can also get it from Human (Mark of Passage) race from Eberron Rising from the Last War. Maybe the best expanded spell list of any race including misty step, pass without trace, and dimension door. Great with ritual casters Artificers, Bards, or Druids so you can ritual Phantom steed as well get access to spells you want but can't otherwise have.
Your interpretations are my go to when I act as my groups' rules lawyer. You're the most Lawful Neutral advocate I know, and it's a powerful draw whenever I see you expounding upon a topic such as this. I'd seen your previous Mounted Combat video from April last year and refer to it (and now this video) as a touchstone when it comes to working with mounted combat. My new riddle to you is this... I am a 7th level wizard, my friend is a 7th level fighter and they go well before me in initiative. They have already made a round of attacks against a big bad monster earlier this round. I spend my turn to polymorph my fighter friend into a Riding Horse, and I mount them as a controlled mount to change their initiative to overlap with mines, then I immediately drop concentration, falling off their shoulders or back as they return to humanoid form, and end my turn to allow them to continue their turn with their new initiative overlapping with mines effectively granting them a second full turn this round. What DC is the dex save I have to meet to avoid projectiles the DM chucks at my head? In all seriousness, is the above something you would personally entertain as a DM if a wizard were to expend a 4th level spell on such shenanigans?
So if controlled mount's initiative changes to the riders's, does that mean that if each of the party members mounts the horsey, then immediately dismounts, one after another... The horsey gets as many turns in combat as there are PCs next to it, capable of mounting/dismounting? Does this mean that a horsey with Dragon's Breath cast on it can use it's action to blast the enemies multiple times per round? Boy o boy what a fun little exploit that no DM ever is gonna allow at their table! :V
@@Adurnis Thanks! I will! So if controlled mount's initiative changes to the riders's, does that mean that if each od the party members mounts the horsey, then immediately dismounts, one after another... The horsey gets as many turns in combat as there are PCs next to it, capable of mounting/dismounting? Does this mean that a horsey with Dragon's Breath cast on it can use it's action to blast the enemies multiple times per round? Boy o boy what a fun little exploit that no DM ever is gonna allow at their table! :V
I’m not sure about this. The spell says, “For the duration, you OR A(one) creature you choose can ride the steed.” That sounds to me like you can only designate one rider for the duration.
@@mhelvens most common definitions of “mount” require that you’re getting in an animal for the purposes of riding it. If you don’t intend to ride, you’re not mounted on it, you’re just sitting on it. :P
When I first learned about this spell, I was blown away that more people didn't talk about it, it's such an interesting spell to me. Thanks for making this video! Keep up the awesome work
I thought about this recently. So the mount can move 200ft/round or 23 miles/hour. You know what that also means. If the phantom stead can gallop it can travel faster than 200ft per round. In fact at 26 miles/hour it is moving 230 ft/round which is faster than it can move with a dash. So i think its safe to say the phantom steed cannot gallop for 2x fast pace.
I like the idea of using the Phantom Steed to set off traps. A lot of triggers for traps are at least 50lb weight on a pressure plate. Things like familiars, unseen servant, mage hand or homunculus doesn't set them off, but something weighing as much as a riding horse would.
I'm glad people are finally starting to realize what a great spell phantom steed is I rank it along with slow and hypnotic pattern in power level, and it's a ritual spell to boot
one of my fave spells in the game and the main reason i take warcaster. how i rule phantom steed taking dmg is similar to your with a few tweaks, 1. if the steed takes 1+ dmg but doesnt die to dmg, it gradually fades. the steed is still alive but it stays in place. you can't use it to move but you are still mounted. even if you dismount, unless it takes more dmg it stays in place and is still alive. therefore, someone like a small race rider can dismount and use it as half-cover. 2. if the steed takes enough dmg to die, you are forcibly dismounted and the steed disappears.
Regarding other aspects of the game which can alter the order of initiative, sphinxes have a lair action that allows them to force every creature in its lair to reroll initiative.
I absolutely agree with your interpretation of what you can't do when the steed is "gradually fading'. I've heard multiple people say otherwise and claim it's some sort of invincible steed for the minute it's fading, that doesn't make sense to me at all, you can't ride around dealing death for that minute, all you can do is dismount safely, that is the intent and the way it's worded. I've considered picking up this ritual spell, but I'm not sure it's worth one of my spells known I'm only 5th level I get 2 3rd level spells and I'd say there are at least 15 3rd level spells I want more than this one. :( Gosh I didn't realize I wanted 16 level 3 wizard spells, there are so many good 3rd level Wizard spells.
Alright so I have initiative 19. The initiative of the steed changes to 19. And it can move during the turn you mount it. That seems raw. I assume RAW whichever has highest dex goes first as usual. As far as I read, the steed only changes initiative but it's explicitly stated that it has it's own turn. I as a DM homebrew that a controlled mount shares your turn to shut down any arguments.
I would love to see a video from you on Blindsight Vs the invisible condition. A lot of people say if you're invisible, even if seen, you still get the advantage of being invisible.
RAW that is correct because invisible is a condition that grants advantage regardless of the Unseen Attacker rule. Contrast Blindsight and even See Invisibility with Faerie Fire.
If we want to talk shenanigans, then considder the following. All that is required to be a mount is being one size larger than the rider and having 'appropriate anatomy'. If installing a saddle on your shoulder counts as 'appropriate anatomy', then you could have your lvl 7 wizard polymorphed into a giant ape, mounted by your large rune knight, mounted by the human rouge, mounted by the gnome bard, mounted by the tiny(enlarge/reduce) fairy. All of them would be acting not just on the same initiative but simultaniously, mixing all their actions in whatever order they choose. Also now I want a party of all bard druid multiclasses, traveling the lands as a tower of Donkey, dog, cat and rooster.
I instantly remembered one ability that actually allowes you (only as a DM) to CHANGE the initiative of several creatures (to be honest, just swap, but still). It's not within the core rulebooks or adventures, but it's from an Adventures League module, so I suppose it's official? So, this module is DDAL09-02 (the second one in Avernus storyline), and it's on page 14 (right side, at the very top). A feature is called Infernal Tactics. It reads: Infernal Tactics. This creature has a keen eye for seizing a tactical advantage. Immediately after rolling initiative, it can choose itself and up to three allies it can see if it isn’t incapacitated. It can swap the initiative results of the chosen creatures among them. Here you go :)
On changing the initiative order: an androsphinx can change the initiative order with its lair actions: "The flow of time is altered such that every creature in the lair must reroll initiative. The sphinx can choose not to reroll". Can a player do this? Well they certainly can become a sphinx, but I'm not sure if there is a way for them to become a sphinx capable of using lair actions.
Something I thought about with the travel application of this spell is its interaction with the Floating Disk spell. The Floating Disk spell has a casting time of 1 action, and is also a ritual spell that lasts 1 hour. The first thing to note is that this spell is only 1st level. While it's true any caster with the ritual caster (wizard) feat could eventually learn the phantom steed spell, you would need additional time for the copying of the spell, while the floating disk spell can be learned right away with the ritual caster feat. It's also available with only one level in wizard, 3rd level eldritch knight/arcane trickster. Since the disk can follow the person who cast it, the player who cast phantom steed as a ritual could also cast the floating disk spell right after (or whoever is riding the phantom steed could cast floating disk instead). You then have a disk that another player could ride right behind the phantom steed rider. If multiple players knew the floating disk spell, they could create a chain of floating disks by riding the disks and creating a floating disk behind them, and they would all follow at the same pace as the phantom steed. Additionally, if your table uses the optional rule for scribing spells, a wizard could very easily scribe scrolls of floating disk during down time. Then after ritual casting Phantom steed, you could cast floating disk as an action, but without spending a spell slot, in exchange for 25 gp instead (cost of scribing a 1st level spell, which takes 8 hours of downtime).
Maybe over the course of several turns? "Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 ft of you or dismount...". You would need to do that after the initiative is rolled so it would rarely be helpful.
Video idea: The 10 best questions to ask your dungeon master to know what kind of world they’ve created and rules they use. This could be in the form of a simple question and answer, or give the DM scenarios and see how they would apply the rules
That last bit makes mounted Drakewardens cry. Since the Drake is hard ruled to take a turn immediately after the Drakewarden, they can’t overlap turns and so have issues with charging in and extra attack. As I read it the Ranger has to hold action and tell the Drake to charge in on bonus action and then when they close the Ranger gets his attack in. Though the Drake gets to attack too on that first attack the Ranger gets only one held attack. So sad since the Ranger can only ride the Drake after they get extra attack.
@@KingSparda Indeed. But RaW, that is the way it goes - but Beastmaster Ranger can actually do just that. The reason I assume they did that was the drake’s reaction but it does punish mounted melee Drakewardens.
you're really hoping you can find the spell though in the campaign and that the DM even lets you have it unless you want to use one of your four precious 3rd level spell picks to get it, but that's why its so powerful I think - because there's a chance your wizard might not ever find this spell without just taking it a levelup
This is one area where the lack of details on what you are doing while performing a ritual really causes me a problem. If you are drawing mystical circles on the ground, lighting candles, or anything like that I have a hard time imagining that you could do that while mounted. On the other hand if my "ritual" is something like counting a rosary that's different. You can pray and count beads while riding a horse. Thematically leaving these details up to the GM or the character leads to some great story telling. It really doesn't matter UNTIL I'm dealing with a rules lawyer with an optimized character. He's arguing RAW and his character definitely could make 60 DC 10 concentration saves in a roll. If I go RAW he's happy, but perhaps that isn't good story telling and world building. Especially in a long running campaign with lots of cool precedent and depth of lore. Having even a vague description of HOW you are supposed to perform the phantom steed ritual would eliminate this problem. That or a CLEAR rule saying the DM determines how the ritual has to be performed. With that I just point to the rule, explain the precedent, and ask Mr. Optimizer how he plans to draw an elaborate circle in the dirt while riding super fast on his mount. Sure he can do it mounted, with a really long stick, but not while riding. lol
That's exactly how my DM rules it, so I have to be sitting on the ground laying objects out around myself. I suppose you could do it while carried on a wagon or a floating disc.
The only other thing with changing initiative that comes to mind is the 13th level Rogue, Wild Card, subclass feature from the Wotc+Riot Games/lol collab but I'm not sure if that was official content since it got removed from almost everywhere abou a week after release. Here's how it worked: Twist of Fate At 13th level, your mastery over the game table hones your speed and cunning in combat. After rolling initiative but before the first turn of combat, you can choose to swap places in the initiative order with one creature you can see. If the creature is one of your allies, that ally must agree to swapping initiative with you.
I agree that per RAW if the steed takes any damage the spell ends and you can no longer use it as a mount but that it takes 1 minute to disappear allowing you to dismount rather than being dumped. But I don't have any real issue with allowing it to still be ridden for that minute. Obviously if it takes 13 points of damage it disappears and dumps you to the ground. So taking 1 point but less than 13 isn't likely to happen often. I think most of the time if it were to take a hit it's going to be enough damage to dump you on the ground.
Kind of where I'm at with this. Usually I would consider 'the spell ends' to be immediate, however, we have a specific exception here saying it takes a minute. In that case, you are still in the duration of the spell and can still ride. Of course, if it takes 13 damage then, yeah - you can't ride an unconscious/dead mount even it sticks around for a minute.
now I'm just picturing some phantom steed ritual rodeo event, where mage jockeys have to keep casting their ritual while racing around the track. With opposing animal handling checks directed at an opposing rider to raise the losers concentration DC, fail by a certain number and they also need to make a dex save to avoid falling off their horse.
I have spent a fair amount of my childhood on horseback and there is no way I would allow any kind of ritual casting on horseback, let alone while galloping... doubly so if it's off-road. for starters you'd need to keep track of the terrain, keep at least one hand on the reins, still keep track of where you're going if you're not on a road, take care not to fall off if the horse changes pace or takes a longer step to avoid a small obstacle (a rock, a rabbit hole, anything else).... Only a very specialised/capable rider sat on a steed he knows and has trained to perfection could pull that off and do something intellectually complicated at the same time, especially if it requires hand gestures and whatnot. When we talk about ritual casting I would expect that the caster performs some kind of elaborate procedure to compensate for the lack of spell slot expenditure... this would involve at least some hand gestures/chanting/praying/, maybe a bit of scribbling, drawing a circle or a rune, or meditating or otherwise focusing really hard on the spell itself... sitting on a horse going at full speed (and then some, given the phantom steed's speed) whilst thinking about the spell for 10 minutes does not cut it. hell.. I am not even sure I would allow it on a moving wagon without a concentration check. Wagons pulled by animals are nowhere near as comfortable a ride as say, a modern car... especially when they go full speed.
So RAW, you could make a small race character with maxed out initiative (alert, gloomstalker, warmage, bard etc.), and than provided the rest of your party is medium, you could successively mount every one of them as a controlled mount to give them your initiative count, than dismount them so they can act on their own, but with something like 1d20+11+1d8+1d6 initiative count.
I disagree about the survival part : 1:the spell specify that when it ends it starts to fade for a total of 1 minute and the condition for the spell to end is your action or any damage so after taking you should still be able to use the spell for 1 minute . 2:the status are of a riding horse but the creautere isnt one , not only is a spell but also a phatom steed only radiant damage and similars should be able to make it disapear .
Personally here's how I'd rule a couple things. Raw it seems to be you can give up control of the mount partway through combat, allowing it to act independently. I think at least some people would enjoy kicking people with a horse, so I don't exactly want to remove that option. The main thing here is if a mount is providing a significant tactical benefit, such as damage from kicks or a way to pursue or kite an enemy, I'd make that mount a higher priority target where I'd usually not target mounts. In the case of spells from mounts I'd be more likely to target them as they're expendable. For mounts that are more likely to panic, like a riding horse, I'd likely have that mount run away from danger if it weren't controlled. I wouldn't necessarily want to take control away from the player for independent mounts unless I thought it would run away, but if either it's intelligent like find steed or has some sort of bond with the player I may instead give it wisdom saves to decide if it will fight or not, perhaps something like a concentration saving throw. In terms of the mounted combatant feat and the saddle of the cavalier, I might argue that if you direct an attack targetted at your steed at you, you might use the horses ac to determine the hit rather than your own. That way barding becomes more relevant and your personal ac boosts aren't as valuable.
If you are say a gnome and you summon a phantom steed is the steed still large size? Would this cause an issue with a small sized character on a large sized mount?
I am on the fence about phantoms steeds galloping. If I did allow it I definitely wouldn't let you cast a ritual at full gallop, especially not anywhere there might be hazards, like riding through a forest or jungle.
ok your large phantom horse can still squeeze faster then my elf wizard can walk that corridor sure... but can I ride that large horse while he's squeezing? the horse is already squeezing in the 5ft corridor, is their really room to had my elf wizard on top of it?
So if a Cavalier Fighter takes Mounted Combatant (you hope they generally would) and Ritual Caster, the subclass goes from struggling to use all its abilities properly to being able to do so most of the time? Best way I can think of within current rules without having to rely on magic items or homebrew 🤔
Cavalier fighter barely relates to mounts. It has a single very minor feature that depends on them, then its other features slightly synergize just because they're an additional adjacent creature. They don't require a mount by any means.
So one character in the party with super high initiative and the mounted goodness, multiple other party members who qualify to be mounts. In 3e there's a rule for free action mounting, if there's a similar rule in 5e then the entire party could be acting as a single unit on the first initiative count of every combat.
"Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 ft of you or dismount...". You can only mount once per turn and not if you dismounted on the same turn. You could mount a friend as a controlled mount then push yourself off with a Gust of Wind cantrip? You could do that as a Wizard with a subclass that increases initiative and Gift of Alacrity but that would take most of your first turn to bring up one party member.
@@fenec250 I don't play 5e, I just watch stuff about it because systems are interesting. in 3e mounting or dismounting is a move action, the equivalent of taking all of your movement, but a DC 20 ride check lets you mount or dismount as a free action. Free actions are only limited by how much your DM finds reasonable, so in TO where there is no DM they are actually infinite. If you had enough horses you could circle the planet and still get a full attack off within the same 6 seconds. Even with a 1/turn limitation this could still come in clutch
Since gnomes get shorted by Dimension Door, my DM for a DMM campaign let me summon a mastiff instead of a horse. Pretty swell for slipping to the front to make use of my +12 initiative, or casting cones.
What's funny is how much of a fantastic and fun can of worms mounts are in 5e...for example 1: can a summoned undead spirit ride a phantom steed? 👻 if they can my DM better have answers for my headless horseman attacks... 2) If you were to use an aoe push spell like thundewave ⛈ while mounted, then is the mount pushed around? ..because if it is... a sadle of the cavalier just turned thundewave into a fantastic paradoxical mess 3) if a shadowspawn of despair mounts a phantom steed and uses its obligatory weight of sorrow ability - are all the squares around the steed effected? Because I am building this either way and I want to know.
I really dig this analysis, but I do have one minor nitpick/rules lawyering question with relation to your claim that you don't get the one minute to continue to use the steed if it takes damage in combat. You seemed focus on the 'when the spell ends' clause referring back to the beginning of the paragraph where it says 'for the duration', but in the very next sentence, the spell also outlines that 'the spell ends' if you use an action to dismiss it or if the steed takes any damage, which seems to me to explicitly outline by using the same verbiage that taking damage causes the spell to end, and that when the spell ends the steed gradually fades, giving you an extra minute. Granted, this has no bearing on the fact that if the steed takes 13 damage it juts outright dies like you say, and you have to get off or be thrown off immediately, but so long as the steed takes nonlethal damage I see no reason why you can't continue to mount it for that final minute as it fades.
but what if phantom steed got shot midair? one of players in my game casted flying on their steed to get out of combat but enemies had xbows, we ruled that he fell and died horrible death because he went straight up with dash
fast pace is a gallop. i think it's giving you the top speed for 1 hour travel at 13 miles. because the real world speed is 4 to 11 mph and can sprint for about half a mile at 37 to 43 mph
You asked if there is another way to change the initiative order and the only one I am aware of is the Androsphinx's lair action which makes everyone (except possibly itself) re-roll initiative. Outside of True Polymorph thats probably never going to be available for players to control though.
This is the kind of thing a DM should be thinking about before they answer the question, "Does a PC have suitable anatomy and training to be willing and able to serve as a mount for another PC?"
But if you mount a party member as a controlled mount(the condition for making an initiative switch) they are limited to the dash disengage or dodge action. There might still be some shenanigans with spells that trigger affects at the start of a casters turn, but nothing comes to mind for me
On this topic, I've played a paladin with the mounted combatant feat riding a moon druid, and it was shockingly effective. 🙂 It was a bit of a juggle coordinating the two separate initiatives, but worth it.
I think you're giving short shrift to the Crawford tweet you quote at 14:06, particularly the last part about deciding who goes first. My read of that tweet is that it's similar to the XGE rule about simultaneous events. You can choose to have the mount have its turn first or your turn first, but you can't break up the mount's turn and insert your turn in the middle or vice versa. So you could totally have the mount go first, move you a target, end its turn then you can have your turn and attack. But if you wanted the mount to disengage and move after you've attacked you need to wait until the next round. I admit the wording about the first round you mount a controlled mount is less clear, but for subsequent rounds that's not an issue. There's a way to understand "overlapping" to mean "up to you to decide on a round by round basis who goes first" and not "you can definitely break up your action." The issue about coordination is to avoid issues like having to hold your action to attack until your mount closes with an enemy, not to allow you to break up one turn, which isn't seen anywhere else in the rules, even for two characters with the same initiative.
For your attack action, if you have extra attack you can attack, move, attack as part of the same action. In order to coordinate this on a mount, you would need to be able to interweave your turns rather than taking one before or after the other, which I feel bolsters the argument for them to be mixable. Even beyond that, I don't think there's a way to interpret "overlapping" as strictly "before or after", in any plain language sense. If I said my shift overlapped with someone else's at work, or if I told someone to overlap roofing shingles, I don't mean "you get to choose which one goes first". It's the same in any plain language situation I can conceive of right now, whether it's the overlapping of wars, scales, sound clips, fabric, etc. Maybe there's another situation where overlap is used to mean "before or after, but never occupying the same space" but I can't think of one.
Can you extend the same mount with the ritual spell or do you create a new one. Also, roleplaying wise, which wizard would ever want to sit and ritual cast constantly for the sake of their party? My wizard would not do this.
Summons mount. Summon 8 pixies. Summon wildfire spirit. Summon warlock imp. Twinned poly turning both the horse and wildfire into apes. I wild shape into a donkey. Imp shapechange into me. Horse rides the halfling jackass while the imp casts invis on itself. Can The 8 pixies turn us into a cerberus?
Regarding the shenanigan, what would be the benefit of having an uncontrolled mount that shares your initiative? It's not like you'll be coordinating your activities...
Potential exploit? Play as a small harengon with maximised initiative scores. Use your movement to mount and dismount an ally who rolled badly on initiative. Their initiative is now the same as yours. Requirements of a mount: -at least one size larger -appropriate anatomy -trained to be ridden Assuming our ally is medium they are one size larger than us. Humans have appropriate anatomy to be ridden that's how piggy-back-rides work. So all you need to do is spend some time training you allies to be ridden. I am sure no DM would ever allow this but am I missing something RAW?
Combat is as hectic as riding a galloping horse, if the BBEG doesn't need concentration saves when dodging arrows then a concentration check shouldn't be needed from riding a galloping horse.
Could you then have the party dismount and mount the same steed to change it initiative order multiple times in one combat? not sure if that would be in any way useful but it seems like a thing that could be done right?
It has the statistics of a riding horse (13 hp), and the video talks about it still dying if it takes that much damage, without any regard for the minute fade from taking 1 damage.
For the Controlling Mount bit, RAW-wise I don't see it. Yes, we're using the Riding Horse's statblock, and should I use a Phantom Steed in combat I would urge my GM to just give me the 100ft movement instead of adding a new creature to the turn order and having to deal with asynchronous movement and bogging things down with the horse's full array of actions, as well as wondering "hmm, what a phantom horse would do?". I understand that we have to rely on RAW, since that's what we can bank on GMs following, but what GMs should follow is the simplest option, as long as it's not ludicrous. We could argue RAW specifics hours on end, for example I have yet to find a GM refusing to let two people ride a horse, we've seen enough movies with horses to know you can do it, but Rules As Written, "you or a creature you choose can ride the steed", not you "and" a creature you choose, or "up to two medium sized creatures". Treating the Phantom Steed just like a horse with 100ft movement, can be ridden as a controlled mount like a trained domesticated horse, and needs no air food or water but dissipates after taking damage is the simplest way to deal with this and so we should. That being said, the rules stipulate "You control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. It is assumed that domesticated horses, etc... has received such training." The rules specifically mention the mount receiving a specific training, and while it is assumed that a Riding Horse received it, which barring two exceptions the Phantom Steed is, we know for a fact the Phantom Steed received no such training at all since we just bloody created it (we can even customize the appearance) one action ago. RAW-wise I don't think you can go beyond "only if it has received the required training" by saying that we're using the Riding Horse stat block and Riding Horses are assumed to have received such training. It needs to have received such training and it certainly didn't. But again, that's only RAW-wise. I would personally just let a Phantom Steed act as a controlled mount, and I would urge any GM to save themselves the hassle and do the same.
I’d like to see your thoughts on the spells find steed & find greater steed & the strength of their ability to cast spells that only target you can also target your steed, I am playing an arcane trickster & I believe our game will go well up into the higher levels especially since we started at 10th lvl & I’m now 11pvls arcane trickster & 1 lvl bard planning on going the rest of the distance in lore bard & when I was mapping out my 6th lvl magical secrets, I looked at find steed since I recently lost my draft horse buddy, & was looking for a permanent replacement, the shock of realizing I already had a bunch of spells that can or only target myself, & that they can target my steed, I researched good spells for this on RUclips & for myself & there are little to no videos on this subject.
Forgive me if this was covered and I missed it - I was looking things up while watching the video - is there an official ruling whether you can interlace your turn with the steed's movement? That seems still unclear from what JCraw has said vs RAW. In your video, you said you can have your steed take the disengage action on its turn before yours, then move up 50 feet, you attack the enemy, then the steed can run away benefiting both of you with its disengage. What allows it to use its movement before and after your action? It seems there have been rulings that say you share initiative and choose who goes first, but also that your steed takes its turn at the same time as yours and can thus split up movement accordingly. I watched the whole video and simply ask in good faith out of lingering confusion
"A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it" - this suggests to me that the mount can move and act on its own turn and additionally it can move and act on your turn when you mount it. I am not convinced that this implies that the turns must overlap and indeed in an earlier video I recall you demonstrating repeated mounting of a large creature to exploit this effect. Similarly, I feel you are reading too much into that very brief segment of JC's answer, I feel that was meant to be a description of the feel of mounted combat. As far as I am aware, nowhere in the rules allows turns to overlap, please do correct me if I am wrong on this.
If Im a small race that has a huge bonus to initiative, like a Harengon with Alert, and I mount say, a Centaur party member that rolled poorly on intiative, can I effectively change their order on initiative during a combar encounter? Furthermore, if I have a lower initiative, can I mount them in order to make them descend in the order of initiative??
Hmmm... That makes me think, the Drakewarden can mount a Drake with 8 Int and 14 Wis, I believe those are pretty good mental stats for a mount all things considered, although I think it might be it's only possible because of their magical bond that lets them share each other's thoughts.
I think even a strict DM would let you flavor a phantom steed that is constantly considered squeezing as a medium mastiff; it's mechanically no different if you consider the mount as squeezing. As a DM I think I'd allow a medium mount with a reduced speed without needing to be considered as squeezing, probably 50 ft (the same as squeezing but without any of the other mechanical penalties from it) Difficult to say without the situation in front of me from one of my players, honestly.
I'm playing in a nautical, piratey swashbuckling campaign and I intend to use Phantom Steed to create a Hippocampus which is a "horse-like" creature to ride while in the water. It's only quasi-real so I interpret that to mean it doesn't technically need to breathe so it can go underwater but since it doesn't have a swim speed it's speed it's speed is halved, to 50ft. Still faster than my character can swim so its pretty useful.
@@TreantmonksTemple It sure does! Did you mean that I'm mistaken or interpreting this interaction incorrectly because, as it would have the statistics of a riding horse it should drown? Personally, I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow since it's only quasi-real, an illusion, a phantom aka a ghost. But I suppose that technically it should just die after its held its breath for 2 minutes.
If you are playing a rogue, and somehow make a reaction attack on your mount’s turn, can you deal sneak attack damage on both the mount’s turn and your turn?
Yes, but it depends on the means of the reaction. If it depends on a sentinel reaction from an enemy making an attack of opportunity on the mount, then issues may arise. If the steed has taken more than 12 damage it immediately falls prone dead, and you would either need to use your reaction to not land prone as well, or you could make the sentinel attack - with prone though you would not get sneak unless the disadvantage was negated. -But, if they somehow missed with their attack or failed to KO it [or you have Cavalier's Born to the Saddle feature], you could get your sentinel reaction sneak, then your turn sneak, and your reaction is refreshed at the end of your turn.
I've watched your videos for years, that horse clip was unlike anything I've seen from you, had to pause the video I was laughing that much hahaha
I listen to him on my phone, and when it started I pulled the phone from my coat pocket to skip what I thought was an obnoxious ad... then realized what it was and 🤣
I've used a Floating Disk/Phantom Steed combo that basically made a "Phantom Wagon." The rider casts Floating Disk, since it is distance capped at 20ft and not speed capped, it moves along behind the mount. You could technically chain it and have a whole wagon train pulled by one steed.
In my party we did that with our Moon Druid and my Wizard. A Vedalken on a Dire wolf with a floating Warforged in a lotus position gallping towards a village leaves an unforgettable first impression.
@Дима Казаков From a certain perspective, it might also look like a very zen robot is chasing a terrified wizard on a wolf!
@@gamepsychnunya273 Considering the absolute chaotic stupid personality of our Warforged (my Wizard is very intolerant of that) and that he pulled a Darth Vaider in ESB on our Druid, you are pretty much on point. Though it would take us 15 more sessions to find that out.
We actually used this in my last DnD game. Phantom steeds + fast pace + galloping + Beast totem (elk at 6) gave us mounts with a speed of 52 mph. What should have taken half a day instead took an hour.
Seems like the totem barbarian would be a good candidate for the ritual caster (wizard) feat. I'll have to keep that in mind the next time I play a barbarian
Haste it as well.
Absolutely phenomenal demonstration of the environmental effects of riding a horse at full gallop.
Thank you for this video Treantmonk, you wouldn't believe how many Phantom Steed questions I've had to answer as a result of the Double Phantom build. Or, perhaps you are the only person who would believe me!
Were there questions that got asked? I hadn't noticed.
@@TreantmonksTemple I thought about making a bot to reply with a link to the FAQ everytime someone @ed me or DMed me.
As for galloping, in Chapter 8 of the DMG, under the "Special Travel Pace" section, it specifically states that riding a Phantom Steed is not considered "normal" movement. Therefore, my understanding is that you couldn't use the galloping rules as it is not normal movement. Later in that section, it also reiterates that you can move 7, 10, or 13 miles and hour with it.
shenanigans : Pool the parties gold and buy a wagon. You now have a vehicle for the party, can hold more than a bag of holding, and you could argue a form of cover in combat. Your wizard now is in charge of summoning PS which comes with all the bridles for the cart. (assuming you buy a yoke with the cart).
This also works with a medium mount and a chariot using the beast of burden rules.
Sure if you plan on only going places wagons can go.
I had this idea and another player at the table told me it would take close to the hour duration just to get the horses properly strapped to the wagon. I don't know anything about horses so I took her word for it.
We've done this in my current campaign. The artificer made it, and we call it the Battle Wagon. His Steel Defender is generally the one pulling it. It's free cover, free movement, and a great place to sling spells from. It doesn't come with us into dungeons but it has still been invaluable in several encounters.
Unrelated shenanigan: At first I read "pool the parties gold" as "POOL PARTY"! I was trying to think what you could do with a Phantom Steed at a Pool Party!
Other than my inability to read, it's like using a Mount in Skyrim. You can only take it places it can go, and you have to make sure no one kills the wagon/mount. But it sure helps when Encumbrance is an issue!!
I always thought that the duration should for this spell should be 8 hours, as one of the main purposes of the spell is to provide a mount for travel. This way you could spend a little less than an hour in the morning to mount your party for the day. In combat kiting with the 100' movement may be an issue. Sure, you could just ritual recast every hour, but that is cumbersome and I don't really see the point having to do that constantly.
Find Steed is the long term option.
@@tnatstrat7495 Not on the same spell list. And that doesn't excuse the ridiculous short duration of this one.
The Cult Boon of Zariel allows a Cult leader to swap its allies initiatives around immediately after initiative is rolled.
Only an exception to the rule on a technicality, but hey. It's all I could think of.
People are really sleeping on Phantom Steed. Moving at 200ft is close to being invulnerable as you can end every turn 100+ ft away and behind full cover.
Cool video snippet of the galloping horse 😆 Thanks for the vid, as always!
0:49 You can also get it from Human (Mark of Passage) race from Eberron Rising from the Last War. Maybe the best expanded spell list of any race including misty step, pass without trace, and dimension door. Great with ritual casters Artificers, Bards, or Druids so you can ritual Phantom steed as well get access to spells you want but can't otherwise have.
Your interpretations are my go to when I act as my groups' rules lawyer. You're the most Lawful Neutral advocate I know, and it's a powerful draw whenever I see you expounding upon a topic such as this. I'd seen your previous Mounted Combat video from April last year and refer to it (and now this video) as a touchstone when it comes to working with mounted combat.
My new riddle to you is this... I am a 7th level wizard, my friend is a 7th level fighter and they go well before me in initiative.
They have already made a round of attacks against a big bad monster earlier this round. I spend my turn to polymorph my fighter friend into a Riding Horse, and I mount them as a controlled mount to change their initiative to overlap with mines, then I immediately drop concentration, falling off their shoulders or back as they return to humanoid form, and end my turn to allow them to continue their turn with their new initiative overlapping with mines effectively granting them a second full turn this round.
What DC is the dex save I have to meet to avoid projectiles the DM chucks at my head?
In all seriousness, is the above something you would personally entertain as a DM if a wizard were to expend a 4th level spell on such shenanigans?
So if controlled mount's initiative changes to the riders's, does that mean that if each of the party members mounts the horsey, then immediately dismounts, one after another... The horsey gets as many turns in combat as there are PCs next to it, capable of mounting/dismounting? Does this mean that a horsey with Dragon's Breath cast on it can use it's action to blast the enemies multiple times per round?
Boy o boy what a fun little exploit that no DM ever is gonna allow at their table! :V
You can say that again.
@@Adurnis Thanks! I will!
So if controlled mount's initiative changes to the riders's, does that mean that if each od the party members mounts the horsey, then immediately dismounts, one after another... The horsey gets as many turns in combat as there are PCs next to it, capable of mounting/dismounting? Does this mean that a horsey with Dragon's Breath cast on it can use it's action to blast the enemies multiple times per round?
Boy o boy what a fun little exploit that no DM ever is gonna allow at their table! :V
I’m not sure about this. The spell says, “For the duration, you OR A(one) creature you choose can ride the steed.” That sounds to me like you can only designate one rider for the duration.
@@theresnoracelikegnome But is mounting and riding the same thing? 😂
@@mhelvens most common definitions of “mount” require that you’re getting in an animal for the purposes of riding it. If you don’t intend to ride, you’re not mounted on it, you’re just sitting on it. :P
When I first learned about this spell, I was blown away that more people didn't talk about it, it's such an interesting spell to me.
Thanks for making this video! Keep up the awesome work
The snippet of the galloping horse had me chuckling so much
I thought about this recently. So the mount can move 200ft/round or 23 miles/hour. You know what that also means. If the phantom stead can gallop it can travel faster than 200ft per round. In fact at 26 miles/hour it is moving 230 ft/round which is faster than it can move with a dash. So i think its safe to say the phantom steed cannot gallop for 2x fast pace.
I like the idea of using the Phantom Steed to set off traps. A lot of triggers for traps are at least 50lb weight on a pressure plate. Things like familiars, unseen servant, mage hand or homunculus doesn't set them off, but something weighing as much as a riding horse would.
I'm glad people are finally starting to realize what a great spell phantom steed is
I rank it along with slow and hypnotic pattern in power level, and it's a ritual spell to boot
A tome lock with aspect of the moon could ride 24 hours a day and cover ground at an insane speed.
one of my fave spells in the game and the main reason i take warcaster.
how i rule phantom steed taking dmg is similar to your with a few tweaks,
1. if the steed takes 1+ dmg but doesnt die to dmg, it gradually fades. the steed is still alive but it stays in place. you can't use it to move but you are still mounted. even if you dismount, unless it takes more dmg it stays in place and is still alive. therefore, someone like a small race rider can dismount and use it as half-cover.
2. if the steed takes enough dmg to die, you are forcibly dismounted and the steed disappears.
A horse that isn't even real puts a level 20 monk to shame? I'm not surprised.
I'd heard tell of a Tarnished hurtling about atop a phantom steed. And upon looking into the matter, the talk, I surmise, is of thee?
Regarding other aspects of the game which can alter the order of initiative, sphinxes have a lair action that allows them to force every creature in its lair to reroll initiative.
I absolutely agree with your interpretation of what you can't do when the steed is "gradually fading'. I've heard multiple people say otherwise and claim it's some sort of invincible steed for the minute it's fading, that doesn't make sense to me at all, you can't ride around dealing death for that minute, all you can do is dismount safely, that is the intent and the way it's worded.
I've considered picking up this ritual spell, but I'm not sure it's worth one of my spells known I'm only 5th level I get 2 3rd level spells and I'd say there are at least 15 3rd level spells I want more than this one. :( Gosh I didn't realize I wanted 16 level 3 wizard spells, there are so many good 3rd level Wizard spells.
Alright so I have initiative 19. The initiative of the steed changes to 19. And it can move during the turn you mount it. That seems raw. I assume RAW whichever has highest dex goes first as usual. As far as I read, the steed only changes initiative but it's explicitly stated that it has it's own turn. I as a DM homebrew that a controlled mount shares your turn to shut down any arguments.
Give it wings like a Pegasus, and horn like a Unicorn.
I would love to see a video from you on Blindsight Vs the invisible condition. A lot of people say if you're invisible, even if seen, you still get the advantage of being invisible.
RAW that is correct because invisible is a condition that grants advantage regardless of the Unseen Attacker rule.
Contrast Blindsight and even See Invisibility with Faerie Fire.
I did not expect an actual galloping demonstration of this spell to feature in this review.
That cut to the horse galloping while you're barely speaking over the noise was hilarious.
Since it is an illusion spell, it means that illusionist wizard can change it to look differently.
yep, also if you use tasha's anyone can make it cosmetically different.
@@IsaacScharp Oh yea but illusionist can make it look like a Find Greater Steed mount.
Phantom Riding Chickens
A Chocobo! Kwehhhhhhhhh!
If we want to talk shenanigans, then considder the following.
All that is required to be a mount is being one size larger than the rider and having 'appropriate anatomy'. If installing a saddle on your shoulder counts as 'appropriate anatomy', then you could have your lvl 7 wizard polymorphed into a giant ape, mounted by your large rune knight, mounted by the human rouge, mounted by the gnome bard, mounted by the tiny(enlarge/reduce) fairy.
All of them would be acting not just on the same initiative but simultaniously, mixing all their actions in whatever order they choose.
Also now I want a party of all bard druid multiclasses, traveling the lands as a tower of Donkey, dog, cat and rooster.
I instantly remembered one ability that actually allowes you (only as a DM) to CHANGE the initiative of several creatures (to be honest, just swap, but still). It's not within the core rulebooks or adventures, but it's from an Adventures League module, so I suppose it's official?
So, this module is DDAL09-02 (the second one in Avernus storyline), and it's on page 14 (right side, at the very top). A feature is called Infernal Tactics.
It reads:
Infernal Tactics. This creature has a keen eye for seizing a tactical advantage. Immediately after rolling initiative, it can choose itself and up to three allies it can see if it isn’t incapacitated. It can swap the initiative results of the chosen creatures among them.
Here you go :)
On changing the initiative order: an androsphinx can change the initiative order with its lair actions: "The flow of time is altered such that every creature in the lair must reroll initiative. The sphinx can choose not to reroll". Can a player do this? Well they certainly can become a sphinx, but I'm not sure if there is a way for them to become a sphinx capable of using lair actions.
Something I thought about with the travel application of this spell is its interaction with the Floating Disk spell.
The Floating Disk spell has a casting time of 1 action, and is also a ritual spell that lasts 1 hour.
The first thing to note is that this spell is only 1st level. While it's true any caster with the ritual caster (wizard) feat could eventually learn the phantom steed spell, you would need additional time for the copying of the spell, while the floating disk spell can be learned right away with the ritual caster feat.
It's also available with only one level in wizard, 3rd level eldritch knight/arcane trickster.
Since the disk can follow the person who cast it, the player who cast phantom steed as a ritual could also cast the floating disk spell right after (or whoever is riding the phantom steed could cast floating disk instead).
You then have a disk that another player could ride right behind the phantom steed rider.
If multiple players knew the floating disk spell, they could create a chain of floating disks by riding the disks and creating a floating disk behind them, and they would all follow at the same pace as the phantom steed.
Additionally, if your table uses the optional rule for scribing spells, a wizard could very easily scribe scrolls of floating disk during down time. Then after ritual casting Phantom steed, you could cast floating disk as an action, but without spending a spell slot, in exchange for 25 gp instead (cost of scribing a 1st level spell, which takes 8 hours of downtime).
The disk is tiny. 3ft diameter moving at 16.67 feet per second would not be very stable to ride. A riding horse with a saddle is way more secure.
The real question is, can you jump between several of them? Effectively changing them all to match your initiative.
In theory...
Maybe over the course of several turns? "Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 ft of you or dismount...". You would need to do that after the initiative is rolled so it would rarely be helpful.
Video idea:
The 10 best questions to ask your dungeon master to know what kind of world they’ve created and rules they use.
This could be in the form of a simple question and answer, or give the DM scenarios and see how they would apply the rules
That last bit makes mounted Drakewardens cry. Since the Drake is hard ruled to take a turn immediately after the Drakewarden, they can’t overlap turns and so have issues with charging in and extra attack.
As I read it the Ranger has to hold action and tell the Drake to charge in on bonus action and then when they close the Ranger gets his attack in. Though the Drake gets to attack too on that first attack the Ranger gets only one held attack. So sad since the Ranger can only ride the Drake after they get extra attack.
I guess they could control it, but then it's just a movement machine.
This is the one I would change, and I think most would agree. Simultaneous turns if you are mounted on your drake. It only makes sense.
@@KingSparda Indeed. But RaW, that is the way it goes - but Beastmaster Ranger can actually do just that. The reason I assume they did that was the drake’s reaction but it does punish mounted melee Drakewardens.
@@KingSparda Yeah, I mean if I'm the DM I would just hand wave it.
@@TreantmonksTemple 100%, a nothing burger call, it's not even the rule of cool. It's just logically and thematically sound for the subclass.
you're really hoping you can find the spell though in the campaign and that the DM even lets you have it unless you want to use one of your four precious 3rd level spell picks to get it, but that's why its so powerful I think - because there's a chance your wizard might not ever find this spell without just taking it a levelup
This is one area where the lack of details on what you are doing while performing a ritual really causes me a problem. If you are drawing mystical circles on the ground, lighting candles, or anything like that I have a hard time imagining that you could do that while mounted. On the other hand if my "ritual" is something like counting a rosary that's different. You can pray and count beads while riding a horse.
Thematically leaving these details up to the GM or the character leads to some great story telling. It really doesn't matter UNTIL I'm dealing with a rules lawyer with an optimized character. He's arguing RAW and his character definitely could make 60 DC 10 concentration saves in a roll. If I go RAW he's happy, but perhaps that isn't good story telling and world building. Especially in a long running campaign with lots of cool precedent and depth of lore.
Having even a vague description of HOW you are supposed to perform the phantom steed ritual would eliminate this problem. That or a CLEAR rule saying the DM determines how the ritual has to be performed. With that I just point to the rule, explain the precedent, and ask Mr. Optimizer how he plans to draw an elaborate circle in the dirt while riding super fast on his mount. Sure he can do it mounted, with a really long stick, but not while riding. lol
That's exactly how my DM rules it, so I have to be sitting on the ground laying objects out around myself. I suppose you could do it while carried on a wagon or a floating disc.
The only other thing with changing initiative that comes to mind is the 13th level Rogue, Wild Card, subclass feature from the Wotc+Riot Games/lol collab but I'm not sure if that was official content since it got removed from almost everywhere abou a week after release. Here's how it worked:
Twist of Fate
At 13th level, your mastery over the game table hones your speed and cunning in combat. After rolling initiative but before the first turn of combat, you can choose to swap places in the initiative order with one creature you can see. If the creature is one of your allies, that ally must agree to swapping initiative with you.
I agree that per RAW if the steed takes any damage the spell ends and you can no longer use it as a mount but that it takes 1 minute to disappear allowing you to dismount rather than being dumped.
But I don't have any real issue with allowing it to still be ridden for that minute. Obviously if it takes 13 points of damage it disappears and dumps you to the ground. So taking 1 point but less than 13 isn't likely to happen often. I think most of the time if it were to take a hit it's going to be enough damage to dump you on the ground.
Kind of where I'm at with this. Usually I would consider 'the spell ends' to be immediate, however, we have a specific exception here saying it takes a minute. In that case, you are still in the duration of the spell and can still ride. Of course, if it takes 13 damage then, yeah - you can't ride an unconscious/dead mount even it sticks around for a minute.
now I'm just picturing some phantom steed ritual rodeo event, where mage jockeys have to keep casting their ritual while racing around the track. With opposing animal handling checks directed at an opposing rider to raise the losers concentration DC, fail by a certain number and they also need to make a dex save to avoid falling off their horse.
The horse bit is fantastic.
I have spent a fair amount of my childhood on horseback and there is no way I would allow any kind of ritual casting on horseback, let alone while galloping... doubly so if it's off-road. for starters you'd need to keep track of the terrain, keep at least one hand on the reins, still keep track of where you're going if you're not on a road, take care not to fall off if the horse changes pace or takes a longer step to avoid a small obstacle (a rock, a rabbit hole, anything else)....
Only a very specialised/capable rider sat on a steed he knows and has trained to perfection could pull that off and do something intellectually complicated at the same time, especially if it requires hand gestures and whatnot.
When we talk about ritual casting I would expect that the caster performs some kind of elaborate procedure to compensate for the lack of spell slot expenditure... this would involve at least some hand gestures/chanting/praying/, maybe a bit of scribbling, drawing a circle or a rune, or meditating or otherwise focusing really hard on the spell itself... sitting on a horse going at full speed (and then some, given the phantom steed's speed) whilst thinking about the spell for 10 minutes does not cut it.
hell.. I am not even sure I would allow it on a moving wagon without a concentration check. Wagons pulled by animals are nowhere near as comfortable a ride as say, a modern car... especially when they go full speed.
It would be like casting a spell while downhill skiing
Fun analysis. I would probably rule that riding horses avoid predators and loud melees in most cases.
I feel like this is why so many DMs (even AL ones that are supposed to be RAW) just have all pets go on the same initiative, it’s just so much easier
So RAW, you could make a small race character with maxed out initiative (alert, gloomstalker, warmage, bard etc.), and than provided the rest of your party is medium, you could successively mount every one of them as a controlled mount to give them your initiative count, than dismount them so they can act on their own, but with something like 1d20+11+1d8+1d6 initiative count.
Lmao this is hilarious
The horse walks into the room and… [DM rolls dice] turns into a potted plant
I’d rule it that you can ritually re-up the casting at a leisurely normal pace but not likely while galloping (66 Con saves like you said)
I disagree about the survival part :
1:the spell specify that when it ends it starts to fade for a total of 1 minute and the condition for the spell to end is your action or any damage so after taking you should still be able to use the spell for 1 minute .
2:the status are of a riding horse but the creautere isnt one , not only is a spell but also a phatom steed only radiant damage and similars should be able to make it disapear .
Personally here's how I'd rule a couple things. Raw it seems to be you can give up control of the mount partway through combat, allowing it to act independently. I think at least some people would enjoy kicking people with a horse, so I don't exactly want to remove that option. The main thing here is if a mount is providing a significant tactical benefit, such as damage from kicks or a way to pursue or kite an enemy, I'd make that mount a higher priority target where I'd usually not target mounts. In the case of spells from mounts I'd be more likely to target them as they're expendable.
For mounts that are more likely to panic, like a riding horse, I'd likely have that mount run away from danger if it weren't controlled. I wouldn't necessarily want to take control away from the player for independent mounts unless I thought it would run away, but if either it's intelligent like find steed or has some sort of bond with the player I may instead give it wisdom saves to decide if it will fight or not, perhaps something like a concentration saving throw.
In terms of the mounted combatant feat and the saddle of the cavalier, I might argue that if you direct an attack targetted at your steed at you, you might use the horses ac to determine the hit rather than your own. That way barding becomes more relevant and your personal ac boosts aren't as valuable.
There is an inverse correlation with the level of rules lawyering in your videos and my enjoyment of them.
LOL (for real) during your "mounted" scene.
If you are say a gnome and you summon a phantom steed is the steed still large size? Would this cause an issue with a small sized character on a large sized mount?
It has the statistics of a riding horse. You can ride as long as the mount is at least one size larger than you.
I am on the fence about phantoms steeds galloping. If I did allow it I definitely wouldn't let you cast a ritual at full gallop, especially not anywhere there might be hazards, like riding through a forest or jungle.
Now wizards can have GLORIOUS and FABULOUS steed like paladins.
ok your large phantom horse can still squeeze faster then my elf wizard can walk that corridor sure... but can I ride that large horse while he's squeezing? the horse is already squeezing in the 5ft corridor, is their really room to had my elf wizard on top of it?
Guess it depends how thick you thighs are! A steed is squeezing through a 5’ space, which is significantly wider than most riding horses.
Oh boy, I made it into a video for being wrong! My parents will be proud.
username checks out?
@@TreantmonksTemple it’s what my character would do.
So if a Cavalier Fighter takes Mounted Combatant (you hope they generally would) and Ritual Caster, the subclass goes from struggling to use all its abilities properly to being able to do so most of the time? Best way I can think of within current rules without having to rely on magic items or homebrew 🤔
Cavalier fighter barely relates to mounts. It has a single very minor feature that depends on them, then its other features slightly synergize just because they're an additional adjacent creature. They don't require a mount by any means.
So one character in the party with super high initiative and the mounted goodness, multiple other party members who qualify to be mounts. In 3e there's a rule for free action mounting, if there's a similar rule in 5e then the entire party could be acting as a single unit on the first initiative count of every combat.
"Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 ft of you or dismount...". You can only mount once per turn and not if you dismounted on the same turn. You could mount a friend as a controlled mount then push yourself off with a Gust of Wind cantrip? You could do that as a Wizard with a subclass that increases initiative and Gift of Alacrity but that would take most of your first turn to bring up one party member.
@@fenec250 I don't play 5e, I just watch stuff about it because systems are interesting.
in 3e mounting or dismounting is a move action, the equivalent of taking all of your movement, but a DC 20 ride check lets you mount or dismount as a free action. Free actions are only limited by how much your DM finds reasonable, so in TO where there is no DM they are actually infinite. If you had enough horses you could circle the planet and still get a full attack off within the same 6 seconds.
Even with a 1/turn limitation this could still come in clutch
Since gnomes get shorted by Dimension Door, my DM for a DMM campaign let me summon a mastiff instead of a horse. Pretty swell for slipping to the front to make use of my +12 initiative, or casting cones.
What's funny is how much of a fantastic and fun can of worms mounts are in 5e...for example 1: can a summoned undead spirit ride a phantom steed? 👻 if they can my DM better have answers for my headless horseman attacks... 2) If you were to use an aoe push spell like thundewave ⛈ while mounted, then is the mount pushed around? ..because if it is... a sadle of the cavalier just turned thundewave into a fantastic paradoxical mess 3) if a shadowspawn of despair mounts a phantom steed and uses its obligatory weight of sorrow ability - are all the squares around the steed effected? Because I am building this either way and I want to know.
I really dig this analysis, but I do have one minor nitpick/rules lawyering question with relation to your claim that you don't get the one minute to continue to use the steed if it takes damage in combat. You seemed focus on the 'when the spell ends' clause referring back to the beginning of the paragraph where it says 'for the duration', but in the very next sentence, the spell also outlines that 'the spell ends' if you use an action to dismiss it or if the steed takes any damage, which seems to me to explicitly outline by using the same verbiage that taking damage causes the spell to end, and that when the spell ends the steed gradually fades, giving you an extra minute.
Granted, this has no bearing on the fact that if the steed takes 13 damage it juts outright dies like you say, and you have to get off or be thrown off immediately, but so long as the steed takes nonlethal damage I see no reason why you can't continue to mount it for that final minute as it fades.
You do continue to mount it while the steed fades until you dismount. You just can't ride it after the spell ends.
Love this kind of videos 😁
but what if phantom steed got shot midair? one of players in my game casted flying on their steed to get out of combat but enemies had xbows, we ruled that he fell and died horrible death because he went straight up with dash
fast pace is a gallop. i think it's giving you the top speed for 1 hour travel at 13 miles. because the real world speed is 4 to 11 mph and can sprint for about half a mile at 37 to 43 mph
Oh crap- multiple mounts!
You asked if there is another way to change the initiative order and the only one I am aware of is the Androsphinx's lair action which makes everyone (except possibly itself) re-roll initiative. Outside of True Polymorph thats probably never going to be available for players to control though.
All your fancy sorcery is no match for a trusty mule & donkey (1900 lbs carrying for 23g) at your side.
So you're saying the scene in LOTR with the Nazgul and the river is just a ho-hum use of Tidal Wave ending some Phantom Steeds?
the only time I have had a DM okay "ritual casting while moving", just moving, not running or dashing, or anything, was out of pity
If you mount a party member who's already have passed his turn, does he gains another turn??? Crazy stuff if so
In theory....but check with your DM.
@@TreantmonksTemple The rules do say intelligent creatures act independently (so cannot be controlled). Presumably that includes PCs.
This is the kind of thing a DM should be thinking about before they answer the question, "Does a PC have suitable anatomy and training to be willing and able to serve as a mount for another PC?"
But if you mount a party member as a controlled mount(the condition for making an initiative switch) they are limited to the dash disengage or dodge action. There might still be some shenanigans with spells that trigger affects at the start of a casters turn, but nothing comes to mind for me
On this topic, I've played a paladin with the mounted combatant feat riding a moon druid, and it was shockingly effective. 🙂 It was a bit of a juggle coordinating the two separate initiatives, but worth it.
I think you're giving short shrift to the Crawford tweet you quote at 14:06, particularly the last part about deciding who goes first. My read of that tweet is that it's similar to the XGE rule about simultaneous events. You can choose to have the mount have its turn first or your turn first, but you can't break up the mount's turn and insert your turn in the middle or vice versa. So you could totally have the mount go first, move you a target, end its turn then you can have your turn and attack. But if you wanted the mount to disengage and move after you've attacked you need to wait until the next round. I admit the wording about the first round you mount a controlled mount is less clear, but for subsequent rounds that's not an issue. There's a way to understand "overlapping" to mean "up to you to decide on a round by round basis who goes first" and not "you can definitely break up your action." The issue about coordination is to avoid issues like having to hold your action to attack until your mount closes with an enemy, not to allow you to break up one turn, which isn't seen anywhere else in the rules, even for two characters with the same initiative.
For your attack action, if you have extra attack you can attack, move, attack as part of the same action. In order to coordinate this on a mount, you would need to be able to interweave your turns rather than taking one before or after the other, which I feel bolsters the argument for them to be mixable.
Even beyond that, I don't think there's a way to interpret "overlapping" as strictly "before or after", in any plain language sense. If I said my shift overlapped with someone else's at work, or if I told someone to overlap roofing shingles, I don't mean "you get to choose which one goes first". It's the same in any plain language situation I can conceive of right now, whether it's the overlapping of wars, scales, sound clips, fabric, etc.
Maybe there's another situation where overlap is used to mean "before or after, but never occupying the same space" but I can't think of one.
Can you extend the same mount with the ritual spell or do you create a new one. Also, roleplaying wise, which wizard would ever want to sit and ritual cast constantly for the sake of their party? My wizard would not do this.
Summons mount. Summon 8 pixies. Summon wildfire spirit. Summon warlock imp. Twinned poly turning both the horse and wildfire into apes. I wild shape into a donkey. Imp shapechange into me. Horse rides the halfling jackass while the imp casts invis on itself. Can The 8 pixies turn us into a cerberus?
Bru who else got Jumped scared by that horse clip 😂
I would say, at fast pace, in foot it's 4 miles, on a regular horse it's 8 and on a phantom steed is 13. Seems like an ok progression.
Regarding the shenanigan, what would be the benefit of having an uncontrolled mount that shares your initiative? It's not like you'll be coordinating your activities...
Potential exploit?
Play as a small harengon with maximised initiative scores. Use your movement to mount and dismount an ally who rolled badly on initiative. Their initiative is now the same as yours.
Requirements of a mount:
-at least one size larger
-appropriate anatomy
-trained to be ridden
Assuming our ally is medium they are one size larger than us. Humans have appropriate anatomy to be ridden that's how piggy-back-rides work. So all you need to do is spend some time training you allies to be ridden.
I am sure no DM would ever allow this but am I missing something RAW?
Combat is as hectic as riding a galloping horse, if the BBEG doesn't need concentration saves when dodging arrows then a concentration check shouldn't be needed from riding a galloping horse.
so if im a moon druid and my ally is mounting me while im a mammoth do i get his initiative now?
Could you then have the party dismount and mount the same steed to change it initiative order multiple times in one combat?
not sure if that would be in any way useful but it seems like a thing that could be done right?
I assume since you can dismount while the horse is fading, its body is still corporeal and you can use it for essentially indestructible half cover?
It has the statistics of a riding horse (13 hp), and the video talks about it still dying if it takes that much damage, without any regard for the minute fade from taking 1 damage.
For the Controlling Mount bit, RAW-wise I don't see it. Yes, we're using the Riding Horse's statblock, and should I use a Phantom Steed in combat I would urge my GM to just give me the 100ft movement instead of adding a new creature to the turn order and having to deal with asynchronous movement and bogging things down with the horse's full array of actions, as well as wondering "hmm, what a phantom horse would do?". I understand that we have to rely on RAW, since that's what we can bank on GMs following, but what GMs should follow is the simplest option, as long as it's not ludicrous. We could argue RAW specifics hours on end, for example I have yet to find a GM refusing to let two people ride a horse, we've seen enough movies with horses to know you can do it, but Rules As Written, "you or a creature you choose can ride the steed", not you "and" a creature you choose, or "up to two medium sized creatures". Treating the Phantom Steed just like a horse with 100ft movement, can be ridden as a controlled mount like a trained domesticated horse, and needs no air food or water but dissipates after taking damage is the simplest way to deal with this and so we should.
That being said, the rules stipulate "You control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. It is assumed that domesticated horses, etc... has received such training." The rules specifically mention the mount receiving a specific training, and while it is assumed that a Riding Horse received it, which barring two exceptions the Phantom Steed is, we know for a fact the Phantom Steed received no such training at all since we just bloody created it (we can even customize the appearance) one action ago.
RAW-wise I don't think you can go beyond "only if it has received the required training" by saying that we're using the Riding Horse stat block and Riding Horses are assumed to have received such training. It needs to have received such training and it certainly didn't.
But again, that's only RAW-wise. I would personally just let a Phantom Steed act as a controlled mount, and I would urge any GM to save themselves the hassle and do the same.
Does it double jump? Can you keep it healthy with Frozen Raisins?
I’d like to see your thoughts on the spells find steed & find greater steed & the strength of their ability to cast spells that only target you can also target your steed, I am playing an arcane trickster & I believe our game will go well up into the higher levels especially since we started at 10th lvl & I’m now 11pvls arcane trickster & 1 lvl bard planning on going the rest of the distance in lore bard & when I was mapping out my 6th lvl magical secrets, I looked at find steed since I recently lost my draft horse buddy, & was looking for a permanent replacement, the shock of realizing I already had a bunch of spells that can or only target myself, & that they can target my steed, I researched good spells for this on RUclips & for myself & there are little to no videos on this subject.
Forgive me if this was covered and I missed it - I was looking things up while watching the video - is there an official ruling whether you can interlace your turn with the steed's movement? That seems still unclear from what JCraw has said vs RAW. In your video, you said you can have your steed take the disengage action on its turn before yours, then move up 50 feet, you attack the enemy, then the steed can run away benefiting both of you with its disengage. What allows it to use its movement before and after your action? It seems there have been rulings that say you share initiative and choose who goes first, but also that your steed takes its turn at the same time as yours and can thus split up movement accordingly. I watched the whole video and simply ask in good faith out of lingering confusion
Wow, you missed a lot of the video! Check out the segment that begins at 12:30 I spend more time on that than anything else.
@@TreantmonksTemple thank you! Love your work!
Oooh ok - i just listened back to that and i understand now! I misinterpreted what you were saying on first watch
What happens if you enter Combat mounted?
"A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it" - this suggests to me that the mount can move and act on its own turn and additionally it can move and act on your turn when you mount it. I am not convinced that this implies that the turns must overlap and indeed in an earlier video I recall you demonstrating repeated mounting of a large creature to exploit this effect. Similarly, I feel you are reading too much into that very brief segment of JC's answer, I feel that was meant to be a description of the feel of mounted combat. As far as I am aware, nowhere in the rules allows turns to overlap, please do correct me if I am wrong on this.
6:10 Galloping on a horse while casting or concentrating ... yep, DC 10 check every round, and no taking 10 allowed.
If Im a small race that has a huge bonus to initiative, like a Harengon with Alert, and I mount say, a Centaur party member that rolled poorly on intiative, can I effectively change their order on initiative during a combar encounter? Furthermore, if I have a lower initiative, can I mount them in order to make them descend in the order of initiative??
You normally can't control an intelligent creature
Hmmm... That makes me think, the Drakewarden can mount a Drake with 8 Int and 14 Wis, I believe those are pretty good mental stats for a mount all things considered, although I think it might be it's only possible because of their magical bond that lets them share each other's thoughts.
I wish there was a medium size option like a quasi-real mastiff. I guess they don't want gnomes having this mount in a dungeon.
Tbh as a DM I would allow it.
I think even a strict DM would let you flavor a phantom steed that is constantly considered squeezing as a medium mastiff; it's mechanically no different if you consider the mount as squeezing. As a DM I think I'd allow a medium mount with a reduced speed without needing to be considered as squeezing, probably 50 ft (the same as squeezing but without any of the other mechanical penalties from it)
Difficult to say without the situation in front of me from one of my players, honestly.
Can you cast rituals while riding?
This spell also makes the Tabaxi Rogue/Monk speed builds even more useless by comparison
Somatic required. Your hands are busy at gallop
Should just be one hand for an S component
I'm playing in a nautical, piratey swashbuckling campaign and I intend to use Phantom Steed to create a Hippocampus which is a "horse-like" creature to ride while in the water. It's only quasi-real so I interpret that to mean it doesn't technically need to breathe so it can go underwater but since it doesn't have a swim speed it's speed it's speed is halved, to 50ft. Still faster than my character can swim so its pretty useful.
It has the statistics of a riding horse.
@@TreantmonksTemple It sure does! Did you mean that I'm mistaken or interpreting this interaction incorrectly because, as it would have the statistics of a riding horse it should drown? Personally, I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow since it's only quasi-real, an illusion, a phantom aka a ghost. But I suppose that technically it should just die after its held its breath for 2 minutes.
@@mattmags17 I would agree it's probably reasonable to allow
If you are playing a rogue, and somehow make a reaction attack on your mount’s turn, can you deal sneak attack damage on both the mount’s turn and your turn?
Yes, but it depends on the means of the reaction. If it depends on a sentinel reaction from an enemy making an attack of opportunity on the mount, then issues may arise. If the steed has taken more than 12 damage it immediately falls prone dead, and you would either need to use your reaction to not land prone as well, or you could make the sentinel attack - with prone though you would not get sneak unless the disadvantage was negated. -But, if they somehow missed with their attack or failed to KO it [or you have Cavalier's Born to the Saddle feature], you could get your sentinel reaction sneak, then your turn sneak, and your reaction is refreshed at the end of your turn.
So what about starting a combat while mounted?
If only CON checks were skill checks. *sighs in 11th level rogue*
So there are two different turns happening at the same time?
yes