A great reminder of some key points as I get used to my new Sorcadin that I’m playing in campaign atm :). Also: I’m thinking Spirit Shroud may deserve an honorable mention nod when discussing Holy Weapon as the damage can actually scale. Only one minute, bummer, but maybe for those single big bad fights… Mostly I’m just glad that my next video isn’t also on a Sorcadin. It’s a Bardadin. 🙄😂
Also, getting some bonus without having to spend a 5th level slot is cool. The slow is pretty good as well. I might still prefer upcasting spirit gaurdians but i like to use shroud too.
until you change Your Character for the fourth time sure :D PS: blade Bardlock ARE SUPER BADASS !!!!! going full hex blade was a dud until i got levels in blade bard and then I reached ac 30 and I was like ... YASSS
Another thing to note about Holy Weapon: You don't need to cast it on yourself. If the party has a ranged attacking machine, like a full on rapid fire crossbow expert fighter, consider putting the Holy Weapon on their crossbow instead of your own spear. They'll probably get more use out of it than you would.
We're two minutes in and I see that Treantmonk has decided to follow the classic, sage wisdom that: "A jack of all trades and master of none, is often better than a master of one." This should be a great build!
"Jack of all trades master of none is still better than someone who has only one gimmick and has to hide for the rest of the fight because he ran out of spell slots"
I think people often get far to into damage and don’t value defense in the builds I see at high level. People seem to get saves being clutch people and High AC but resistance temp point points and saves seem to be an afterthought in so many builds I have seen. That is why so many (not all) seems to not understand how dangerous the Drake in the Drakewarden was compared to the beast master. I am glad you pointed out the usefulness of the spells you brought up at the end here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shield, Absorb Elements, and Blade Ward all apply to the Steed when using Find Steed There are other great spells that also apply
@@TreantmonksTemple @Treantmonk's Temple Would casting spirit guardians on yourself while mounted also cast it on your steed, so that we have one for 3d6 damage and our steed has one for 3d6 damage, plus the enemy would have to make two saving throws every time.
Iirc rai per sage advice a spell 'targets' all the creatures it effects, even if the range is 'self', so spirit guardians wouldn't work with find steed spell sharing.
@@Malisteen but it's every spell that targets you while you are on your mount. So even if it does target others while it is active, you can cast it on yoirself and the mount
So, I just had to comment, because I've been playing this *exact* build on a PBP server practicably, Devotion instead of Glory, but what I just wanted to chime in with is: The character obtained a Ruby Weave Gem. Should you have the insane luck that I did, and get such, you can now use your 9th level slot on a 9th level spell. Pretty fantastic.
Was super excited for this build and it didn't disappoint! I didn't expect a lot of the decisions and your explanations of what you took, when, and why, really helped me to more deeply understand the game's mechanics. Also, thank you for your detailed reply to my comment last video Chris! Wonderful content as always 🙇♂️🙏
Extend spell is great for Aid as well. Cast it at your highest spell slot before a long rest. You wake up and still have 8 hours of extra hit points. You, and two other allies can have 40 extra hit points with a 9th level slot. So nice!
I was twisting around level 6 paladin before multiclassing. This was before Chris mentioned the find steed spell. I am convinced it's the right way to go for this build now.
One thing I love about your videos is that they go into game mechanics, and it always makes me want to create an alternative system which is something I've always been passionate about but given the fact that I'm most housebound and isolated I don't focus on the way I should; if I'm not going to present the game to a group it winds up on the back burner as fun ideas . . . but when you're talking about optimizing D&D I always start thinking "Well what if . . . " and eventually that might be motivation enough to do something.
I agree with you on the str decisions think it's ok to keep your str relatively low. You could get your str to an 18 and be pretty happy, but you probably shouldn't even try to get it up to 20. Str boosting items are relatively common and only get more common at high levels. You kind of need specific weapons to make str good enough to worry too much about. For example a flame tongue or something will probably increase damage significantly but you lose your bonus action attack. your bonuses for having a +2 spear are so reliable and let you smite more frequently as you hit more frequently.
After the last video I tried to build my own soradin. It didn't go too great, instead I think I managed to optimize ineffectiveness to a new low. But practice makes perfect.
For those who don’t like those subclasses: The Dark Knight (Oathbreaker/Shadow Sorcerer). It has some utility since you get Darkvission from Shadow Sorcerer, and the dog is gets your aura of protection buff. Seeing through darkness gives you advantage, advantage means crits, and paladins love crits.
I would love to see your spell lists for the Clockwork and Aberrant Mind variants too! Just because the Divine Soul list is so Cleric heavy, and I feel like a lot of people will also be building Sorcadins with the more arcane focused Sorcerers.
Side note. You mention the tactical advantage of focus fire. While I completely agree, and it's commonly accepted, almost no one goes on to mention over-kill. In the cases when the party is facing multiple foes, and focusing on one, it's not uncommon for the Big Hit Guy to down one enemy with enough extra damage they could have taken out another one. All that extra damage is wasted. This is where multiple target actions can pick up the slack. So go ahead with your DPR based on multiple targets. It's a valuable comparison.
With the new Astral Drifter background from Spelljammer, you can cast spells at level 1. So with that and Variant human (or custom lineage) a Paladin could start with War Caster at level 1.
I think for the Bborn variant you meant Saur-adin as in dino-SAUR? Suffix. -saur. Used in the common names of extinct reptilian creatures such as dinosaurs. As a dragon is like a flying dinosaur.
I'm a huge fan of this archetype. There are so many options it's hard to say if one is more or less optimal than another. I'm currently running a 3 way multiclass... sora like a coffeelock strapped to the back of a pally. Variant Human Crusher Feat, lvl 5 Vengeance Paladin, lvl 2 Prismari Sorcer, lvl 3 Dao Warlock pact of the chain.
When you need higher single target damage than what Spirit Guardians can provide consider Summon Celestial. -1 hour duration -Using a 6th-level spell it will attack 3 times for 2d6+8 radiant damage per round (Avenger) at 150 ft. short range, 600 ft. long range. -It can heal for 2d8+6 HP once per day. -It can soak 50 damage that could’ve gone to you or your party essentially saving you from having to use that Heal spell.
I recently joined an existing game that was 11th level (it will go to 20th) and one thing I have found insanely useful taking Aberrant Mind so far after a handful of sessions is switching out "Arms of Hadar" for "Silvery Barbs" on the Psionic Spells list. Being able to throw out Silvery Barbs like they are going out of fashion (well really once per round since you only get one reaction) is pretty nice even at high levels.
I think a neat variation to this build is to start with GWM, pick up defense fighting style, and go devotion paladin. This soradin build cannot afford to increase STR until much later on, but devotion's channel divinity does offset that burden by using CHA to increase +hit. Plus, attacking with a big sword is just way cooler than attacking with a spear.
My party is building itself right now, and I recommended the same fest to our Soradin. Of course we have an Order Cleric, so getting +10 damage when you have so many attacks is gonna scale really well.
We all know that save or suck spells are generally bad, but there's something so satisfying about quickened hold person/monster into double attacks. Not optimal, but so much fun
Another excellent Sorcadin build. I just can't move on from a Turn 1 Conquering Presence/Necrotic Shroud + Quickened Spirit Guardians from the Fallen Aasimar Conquest/Divine Shield build. It's just so psychologically satisfying.
I'm doing a Sword n Board Redemption Clockwork Soul Sorcadin. Currently only level 5 right now. Gunning for 6 in Pally then I might focus or sorc. Feats I'm using is War Caster. Definitely gonna pick up Tough to make up for Sorc hit dies. Definitely getting Resilient Con.
We dont get to twin the blade cantrips anymore, but we can still quicken them and thats a big part of a sorcadins kit. The ability to nova hard when necessary.
That chance to hit comment at 17 minutes or so had me smiling. You're right, if course. That said, you're giving guesses with a precision of two decimal places, so I can see where the commenter is coming from.
If the goal of this build is to be a Jack of All trades, and be solid in many different aspects or in many different scenarios... I would suggest going with the blind fighting style and picking up fog cloud as one of your sorcerer spells. What I have noticed playing a paladin is that you are usually in a pretty good spot, and you can handle tough fights well usually. But when the DM tries to challenge you, or the party finds something that is really not great for them, or theyre just in a bad spot, fog cloud can be really good for leveling the playing field. With blindsight this basically gives us a double buff on offense and on defence. Plus honestly blindsight just has a lot of other useful situations. As a paladin you already ignore a lot of effects or resist them well, being able to deal with the blinded condition, and handle all other scenarios that dont require sight is pretty good, and personally I would trade the 2 damage per attack for that versatility.
I think you forgot that with Divine soul sorcerer you can swap out your alignement spell (in this case Bane) for another first level spell. So you can pick up healing word to bonus action bring an unconscious ally back up.
PAM + Dueling Fighting Style + Shield + Spear is the perfect build for a Feat starved Paladin. All the benefits of sword and board but a lot more damage.
i personally would build differently though i don't see anything wrong with your choices. i just prefer staying away from heavy armor (i like decent initiative and the ability to stealth as needed) and like the value of a hexblade 1 dip. i don't see a big value in going for extra attack either as we can build around booming blade and just mitigate the dmg lost from a lack of extra attack by having more spell slots to smite more often. in my games, while i found aura of protection powerful i found that it usually boosts just myself and the steed as the paladin tended to be on the frontlines and everyone else was a ranged attacker staying in the backlines. with that said, i went with divine soul 1->hexblade 1->divine soul 3->pal 2->divine soul 7 progression. quicken spell was also mitigating the loss of extra attack.
The Booming Blade aspect of this build is really nice. It's really good, and I like that it's consistently effective. But because of the investment: one class for Booming Blade, one for weapon proficiency, at least one feat for War Caster, and maybe a second for Polearm Master, it does a great job of balancing the good effect with a reasonable cost. So it doesn't feel like an exploitation of the rules, just a cool combination.
I mean with animate objects you could just keep a stock of 10 +1 magic daggers which would be considered tiny objects. So then you don't have to worry about damage resistance, this will even take down a barbarian because most barbarians are not immune to magical piercing damage! As a 15th level character, which is the point you can cast this as a sorcadin, gold won't be an issue to buy very low level magic weapons, and you can probably even make them yourself by then!
Something to remember, any transformation spell also applies to your steed. With Draconic Transformation those are two breath weapons per round, crazy good damage.
According to the designers, the dragon breath spell cannot be twinned since they say it targets other creatures with the breath, so presumably that same logic would apply to sharing draconic transformation with find steed.
Hey Treantmonk, First off, thank you for all you do for the community. I’m currently at level 9, 6 vengeance/3 divine soul, planning on doing a very similar build to this, so thank you for the write up, thoughts, and ideas. My question is what are your thoughts using spiritual weapon instead of booming blade? It’s got more flexibility, only needs to use one spell slot, it is much more flexible by being able to use it against other enemies within 20ft… My DM kind of uses his knowledge against us, if you have advantage or put something up like booming blade, he just won’t move and always attacks with multiple enemies so mobility is not as big of a problem. I’m also using shadow blade in dim light or darkness for advantage on all Melee attacks. Thanks for all you do, and if anybody else has ideas or thoughts on this, please let me know. Thanks
this is actually a great video for War Cleric Domain characters too. Sure, no Smite or Aura of Protection, and no need for Polearm Master, just upcast Spirit Guardians 1st rnd and then upcast Spiritual weapon 2nd rnd, then either attack or dodge. High AC with a shield, any ancestry/race. But those spells are even easier as a straight caster, goes to show how Spirit guardians is so powerful.
The reason for going Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X is mainly to be a Sorcadin while not being a Sorcadin. Essentially, its the flavour of a character who is able to hold their own in melee, but really is a primary caster. It plays mostly like a Sorcerer two levels earlier, but can take a little extra bashing and can deal a little bashing. Smiting rarely comes up as useful for this character since they will rarely meet the conditions that make it useful. As Chris mentioned previously, you might as well just grab a level of Fighter instead. The greater choice for this playstyle, in my opinion, is the Sorlock. Hexblade choice gets you to the same rough point in bashing potential (both taking and dealing), however, the Eldritch Blast + Agonising + Repelling is so good. There will be rounds where your best option in terms of resource management is to just carry on concentrating on your spell, at a distance, while throwing Eldritch Blast at the enemy - likely this comes up more than the lost spell slots from being two level behind in Sorcerer. The spell level behind can hurt, though.
Staff of Power Polearm master Sorcadin bonking and casting =P Player : imma use my staff of power to cast divine smite on the giant DM : you cant do that Player : sure i can *smash the giants toe with the staff
I play a level 17 Sorcadin with 6 levels of Paladin in a party where I'm the only multiclasser. I can easily keep up or surpass the damage of all others, besides the rogue. I went Mountain Dwarf oath of Devotion & Storm Sorcery. Gish play-style where I smite mostly only on crits, and choose stormy/thundery spells for flavour. It's a super super fun character. With a fighter, barbarian, rogue and ranger, I went mostly Sorcerer so that our Bard wasn't the only good caster in the party. Also, I've never ever failed a concentration check.
About spirit guardians and movement in it. Your movment speed is a limit of how much feet you can use to move in turn. RAW if you are in spirit guardians range as an enemy, and you move 15 ft.(out of spell range) you used up 30 ft of movement in that turn. If your move speed is 30 that is all your movment, and you need to dash if you wanna move more.
That's how it would work if the spell said it created difficult terrain, but instead the spell says the creature's speed is halved. It's unclear what happens if a creature's speed goes up part-way through their turn. I think most DMs would let a character that cast Longstrider, Haste or otherwise obtained a movement speed buff to move the full amount after the increase, so I could see a similar argument applying here. It does make Spirit Guardians much less good as a control spell if that's how it's ruled, as any 30-ft speed creature could escape it and still use the rest of their speed (unless affected by something else like difficult terrain or another movespeed debuff).
A 3 level paladin "dip" still grants access to level 9 sorcerer spells by level 20, but at the cost of multi attack. 5 levels in pally creates a spell casting, smite stacking multi attack beast, but one that will never reach level 9 spells. It is for this reason I favor a 2 level start in pally (martial weapons, heavy armor, shield and smite) for one of the bard, warlock or wizard sub classes with multi attack when going for a pally/caster build. Best of both worlds, no need to compromise. Frankly, the build is a bit painful in the level 5-7 stretch. Suffered through that once, never again. Now I only bust that build out for one shots or joining mid campaign when told to create a level 8+.
Currently playing a socardin (2 paladin:11 sorcerer). I wanted to create a more powerful sorcerer, capable to be in the frontline. Ability scores and skills: I must say my character is decent to good in some skills and really bad with the rest. Overall, I like this since I can use this for rping. Saving throws: I exchanged Wisdom for Constitution and as a spellcaster, that is not a good trade but I have war caster and I rarely fail Con saves. Party role: my original and current role is to be a secondary tank and support character. My DM allowed me to improve my shield (spellcasting focus) over time, increasing it to +3 now. With heavy armor and shield and I have an AC of 21 or 26 with the shield spell. I have been surrounded by 6 enemies and escaped unharmed several times. This takes all my low levels quickly but it creates plenty of time for my party to take down the enemies around me. Damage: I don't deal a lot of damage unless I use a spell (animate objects is my favourite) but as I mentioned my role isn't that. You can always smite. Conclusion: The ability to be a full spellcaster capable to be in the frontline is stupidly useful, holding the line against an adult dragon for at least 5 rounds while the rest of my part healed. My case is unique since I can have a high AC but I strongly recommend this build if you want to be a semi-tank and a full spellcaster. As mentioned in the video, you can take many routes so I would suggest thinking exactly which role you want to fulfill in the party AND discuss it with your DM
Hmm would have thought that Sentinel Feat would also be an option at level 1. More reaction attacks starting out with, more battlefield control, and that nifty combo with mirror image once higher level. Also allows going sword and board. Guess it also depends on party comp and what role you want to play. Are you the main tank? Off tank? DPS? Buffer etc. Regarding the proficiencies I would always pick Persuasion or Intimidation. Given the high charisma you are often the face of the party.
I think when people say chance to hit is 65% they mean like the standard level 5, +7 to hit against 15 AC. But here's the thing 5% of that is rolling the 20, so if you calculate crit into dpr, you can't count that twice. So yes 65% to hit, 60% to hit normally and 5% to crit and the math checks out. Also if you use the same hit chance for the baseline as for what you compare it to, there is basically no difference anyway.
30:00 I don't know if you're correct here, IMO the rules are unclear about order of events. The way the PHB phrases opportunity attacks, the opportunity attack happens before the enemy leaves your reach, which implies that it's the _intent_ of leaving your reach that triggers the opportunity attack, not the leaving itself. This interpretation would mean that the creature will still be within reach while surrounded by booming energy, and thus can choose to not leave reach after being struck. Just from a balance perspective too I think this is more fair since it seems a bit busted to get a 1d6+3d8+STR opportunity attack at level 5.
I feel like I need to write a great amount here as something here I believe got missed. How the Sorcerer cantrip booming blade interacts with quicken spell and twin spell. These features combined provides additional attacks at the cost of sorcery point. If you go 2/2 pally/sorcerer in the early game that is two attack a turn prior to level 5 which is not bad given its resource dependency . The Tiefling Zariel Variant for the paladin attribute bonuses , paladin 2 additional smite spells, and access to tiefling racial feats which provide additional resistances. Finally Storm Sorcerer Heart of the Storm which provides lightning and thunder damage resistance. Combining these feature means you have resistance to Fire, Cold, Poison, Lightning and Thunder. Find a ring of acid resistance and you can ditch that Absorb Elements Spell. Again this might not be the most optimized build over all as we lack access to the spell mentioned in the video but I wanted to share what I believe to be a very strong, and spicy Soradin born for that decent into Avernus Module. I loved this video and hope you like my choices for a 'Infernal Paladin'.
I got a good dice roll so I built a sorcadin with a charisma of 20 at level 1 (18 + racial) and Dex based damage (I was building around shadow blade and wasn’t originally going to dip into Paladin) and barely had a 13 in strength for the multiclass. My Int is like a 0 and my Wis is a -2 I believe. It’s a fun character to RP. Anyways, it’s pretty cool to have a +5 to charisma and +4 to Dex early on. It helps with wanting to make a hungry sorcadin that wants all the feats. Considering my campaign will want to go to level 11, I’ll get 2 feats, so having high stats really helps with the power hungry nature in sorcadin. I believe my constitution is a +2.
I have a similar build! hahaha. But I went conquest paladin 6. In my opinion, is the best subclass for now because it gives you the armor of agarthys and this spell is awesome to upcast. I got GWM instead because my bonus actions would be busy. Here's what I do: Round1: Bonus action armor of agarthys, attack twice, round2: bonus actions spiritual weapon, attack thrice. round 3: Bonus action spirit guardians, attack twice. Round4: bonus actions: Convert a spell slot into more sorcery points because you already used 4 out of 5. You can bonus action mirror image also, giving yourself more defense. This build is action economy heavy, that's why I don't use polearm master but GWM. I use my warhorse as an ally to give more damage and when possible makes my enemies prone besides to help me flank, always giving me advantage on my attacks. I know this build is about DPR, I think shield and misty step should be highlighted as tools to make the battlefield more interesting. Out of combat also. I use spells like detect thoughts with subtle spell against NPCs all the time to know what they are they are hiding.
I doubt I'm the first to mention this as this is over a year old at this point, but something worth mentioning in regards to racial choice What you could do is take the Gem Dragonborn and use a Double-bladed Scimitar with the Defense fighting style. This ends up with a smidge less damage than PAM+Dueling with one less AC, but its close enough imo to be effective, especially with the benefits Dragonborn gives you. Meanwhile, you save feats, you dont need PAM and you dont need War Caster, at least not immediately. You could point buy a 16 STR and a 17 CHA, take something like Fey Touched to bump the CHA up at level 4 and have max CHA by level 10. The nice thing is once you have those Sorcerer levels and a lot of spells and bonus action options, you could decide then to swap out the Double-Bladed Scimitar if you want and it wont feel like you wasted a feat or anything. Just some food for thought
I think, I don't know if I'm wrong, but your steed could breath as bonus action for 8d6 too... Sorry for late comment, but, I am doing a Open Sea / Sorcerer for Taldorei right now...And, of course, I revisited this post for ideas... its 19th level, but worth it to mention... Thanks, Chris.
One way to get around warcaster is Sorcerer's subtle spell. So long as the spell doesn't have material components, you can subtle spell to cast with your hands full
That works but you can only use one metamagic per spell unless the metamagic says otherwise. If you take war caster, you can take the attack action turn 1 in combat and quicken spell something like spirit guardians as a bonus action. If you cast spirit guardians with subtle spell turn 1 in combat that uses your action and then you cannot take the attack action turn 1. That is the reason to take war caster with subtle spell in your toolkit.
Should you find a Bloodwell Vial on your adventures, it give your Sorcerer spells the advantage of a Clerical focus, only needing to wear the vial. Therefore, with War Caster, a Soradin can cast all of their spells equipement in hand without component restrictions, somatic or material.
@thewholehorse7140 unfortunately, I'm rather limited on magic items. Plus, I traded the lance for a Staff of Defense, so I don't have that issue anymore and I have a magic weapon. I'm playing in AL so I can only have 3 magic items per adventure at the tier I'm at. I have the staff, a cloak of displacement, and a ring of protection right now.
Hey just to let you guys know: If you're playing Strixhaven or your DM let's you take the strixhaven student background and you pick Lorehold you can get spirit guardians in your spell list that way so you can get a different sorcerer subclass. Offer to drop the feat if it's a problem.
Love watching ur videos great content as always ur up there as some of the best and build channels keep it up. I'm trying to get back into dnd last time I played was 3.5 in high school 14 years ago and now I always wanna try 5e and always love playing range or spell character builds love to try out a spell sniper build that shoot spells from super far away and hit super hard as hell too chance for a video on that
Hey Chris! Love your videos as always, especially these last several because I'm a huge fan of Gish characters. This could apply to all your remakes I'd be really curious to get your take on how this new soradin compares to your old one (ultimate spellsword). Do you think there were some problems with the first one that you addressed here? Or was this just a different take on it?
My personal preference is paladin 2/hexblade 2/sorcerer all the way. Charisma is basically all we need. Yes we are less powerful in melee due to not having extra attack(which is a big thing for paladins), but you do get to be a classic Sorlock. So get up and personal, or stay back and blast away. You get the best of both worlds PS. This is because the only time I've played a sorcadin was as "animator fake" the lesser known cousin of anomander rake from Malazan. And that felt like the correct build for that character
1 level hex blade lets you use your charisma for dmg, and have a better crit range. Which pairs with smite nicely. I'd take that over an additional level of sorcerer. The Warlock slot is just sorcery point fuel, strength 13 for multi class min, we are mounted 90% of the time with find steed making the movement penalty hardly relevant.
PAM granting a bonus action attack is awesome for nova rounds, like when fighting a boss or dangerous monster. That extra attack is an extra chance to strike. GWM gets so frustrating with nothing to mitigate that -5, especially in the lower levels. You miss miss and miss all the time. I suppose Bless could somewhat mitigate the -5 to hit, but burning a round to cast it is bad given the tight action economy of 5e (and how short many combats are). Vengeance Pal can get advantage occasionally. That would somewhat mitigate the -5.
I was just watching the Double-Bladed Scimitar video from 2020, wondering if that might have uses here. The character is pretty feat-starved, however, so freeing up that feat could make sense, in theory. If you could get an 18 strength at some point, that'd be a nice perk. Since you can't start with Warcaster as Variant Human and a half-feat at level with either VH or Custom Lineage probably doesn't really stack up, the best I can think of is to go Mountain Dwarf for two +2s to start with 17s in Str/Cha, to use a single ASI later to get a pair of 18s. Level 4 is still going to be Warcaster probably, so that ASI for double 18s isn't going to hit until 10th level. Once it happens, you have +1 to hit, but -1 damage compared to a Spear with Dueling. That's generally a good trade, but nothing major. You lose access to +2 AC from a shield, however. You have a choice of a fighting style, but that's not going to be super impressive. Great Weapon FS basically just puts your damage on par with the Spear version, or Defense claws back some of the AC but you're still behind. One of the utility Fighting Styles (cantrips, blindsight, protecting allies) wouldn't be bad, but nothing too special. At least at first glance, having 18 strength with a DBS build doesn't strike me as that much better. But even if that 18 strength was truly great after level 10, the cost getting there was high. You're missing +2 damage and +2 AC for the first 9 levels. Double scimitar does not seem worth.
It does not have to be the opposite end of the spear, that just flavour. You could always hit someone with the middle staff of the spear with a swipping attack. A spear is just a quarterstaff with a metal point. Think of the swipe like swinning a sword instead of a direct stab with the tip.
Love the build! What would you do differently of, for example, you could be assured you'd have guantlets of ogre power by level 4 (I read that is common in adventure league play)? Presumably stop at 13 STR and go custom lineage instead for infravision and higher starting CHA?
I think there might be a niche disadvantage to extending Spirit Guardians outside of battle. The spell description reads "When you cast this spell, you can designate any number of creatures you can see to be unaffected by it." Meaning if you run into other creatures you don't want to shred, you may have to not stand near them. How often will this be relevant? Not often I'm thinking. But it's definitely something.
It came up for me a couple times in a Curse of Strahd campaign playing as a Light Cleric. The spell only lasts 10 minutes (or 20 if extended) so it didn't actually cause any issues, I just had to wait a bit farther away before joining my party to talk to an NPC.
Hey Chris loved the video as always would it hurt the build extremely badly to add a one level dip maybe at level 1 or 2 to get hexblade so you aren't quite as MAD and maybe a mountain dwarf for their unique armor stuff with Tashas ability to give bonuses
I think it's Tasha that allows the bonuses to be moved where you want them and you do have less feats but without being so mad maybe it could make up for it... just a thought and please would love some feedback. I find this character build very interesting
A great build, I will say. However, I think this would be disappointing in a campaign that started at low levels. Sure, you start Paladin and that is good, but it isn’t sorcadin. If the campaign went from 2-11, you only truly execute on the concept for the final couple levels. Personally I lean toward Paladin 2 sorc x builds, even though it’s weaker in the long run
One optimal spell is casting Ceremony and getting the entire party married to each other. Then when the duration wears out we kill and resurrect everyone so we can cast Ceremony again.
Chris, you are wrong. Using 60% is incorrect because the standard most people use to hit is 65%. By not using the standard to hit percentage you make it slightly more vexing to compare the numbers in your builds to anyone else's numbers. Its not that hard to rerun them to get an apples to apples but still. It's best that everyone uses the same number for easy comparisons
To me, it makes more sense to start Sorc for the con prof and either use halfplate with a 14 in Dex which isnt too hard to get with pointbuy... or if you insist on plate, take heavily armored which not only gives you heavy armor prof but also a Str bump I want to try and make a Half-Elf sorcadin based around the shadowblade spell in my next game...only difficulty is how long it will take a while for my build to come online as I envision it
5e optimizing scene is about damage. Please do a video about pacifist builds choices. Be useful in combat without any damaging and not just a healbot. School of Enchantment or Bards maybe. Thank you.
Pacifist characters are just inherently suboptimal. There’s a serious difference between a character that doesn’t focus on damage and a character that refuses to do damage.
@@JD-wu5pf For (1) Combat is just 1/3 of the game, you can be an incredibly effective and important character without being the best at combat. For (2) In a ton of cases you doing damage yourself is suboptimal. Many times helping your allies do damage is more effective that you doing damage yourself.
@Professor Thinker Why does it bother you that a pacifistic build is deemed "suboptimal," in the grand scheme of things. I think it's perfectly fine to play a suboptimal build, and I won't disagree with anyone who calls it such.
I wonder what the dpr is of Tashas other worldly guise is if you took great weapon master instead of inspiring leader. Also if you add to that bless assuming you have a party member who casts it on you.
So the reason 65% is the assumed is typically due to the average AC of creatures at an equal CR to your level should be hit 65% of the time, assuming point buy and maxing your attack stat first.
Yes, though IME usually you end up fighting monsters a few CRs above your level and often people take a feat first so it may be more accurate to assume 55-60% chance to hit.
qick questtion: Spirit Guardiens is a spell that targets the caster to cerate a spelleffect that tagets outher creatures. Does my "Find Steet Horse" extend it teh spell or maybe even replicate it?
I am about to start the new vecna campaign and am planning on building this (or something very similar). What changes would you make for a character that starts at level 10 and goes until 20? You mentioned GWM as one possible change. Anything Else? Would you consider a hexblade here in that case? Thanks!
I'm assuming you don't do this because its near impossible to even attempt to calculate, but I'm pretty sure bless beats every other concentration spell for damage. The assumption here is your party is full of dps optimised characters, and chances are bless is giving between 1/4 and 1/8 more damage to each person it affects, so in some parties it is worth a full characters dps on its own let alone any other damage you can do.
![Kodak Black - Sharp Vibes [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oEV0OoLJeIs/mqdefault.jpg)
Come on. You know that The Three Way would have a 69% chance to hit
Dude!
...NICE
Not sure I can play this build. I'd have to dress different. I'd have to act different. I'd have to grow a mustache.
More like a 696.... 😈
You sir, get +1 internets.
A great reminder of some key points as I get used to my new Sorcadin that I’m playing in campaign atm :). Also: I’m thinking Spirit Shroud may deserve an honorable mention nod when discussing Holy Weapon as the damage can actually scale. Only one minute, bummer, but maybe for those single big bad fights…
Mostly I’m just glad that my next video isn’t also on a Sorcadin. It’s a Bardadin. 🙄😂
Currently playing a Bardadin and was really hoping one of you guys was going to cover it, could use some tips moving forward!
Ah. A Knight of Song. This is going to be interesting.
Also, getting some bonus without having to spend a 5th level slot is cool. The slow is pretty good as well. I might still prefer upcasting spirit gaurdians but i like to use shroud too.
until you change Your Character for the fourth time sure :D
PS: blade Bardlock ARE SUPER BADASS !!!!! going full hex blade was a dud until i got levels in blade bard and then I reached ac 30 and I was like ... YASSS
@@ZackXJ I agree, a Bardadin should get something
Don’t forget that you can extend the aid spell (upcast!) to 16 hrs and take a long rest to get you spell slot back and still have aid up for 8 hrs.
You can also Extend Prayer of Healing out of combat to give 40d6 healing (140 average)!
@@buxtehudemuzik Aura of Vitality, not Prayer of Healing. I was real confused there for a bit. Also, yes, that's good!
@@probablythedm1669 Doh! Yep, you got the right spell haha
If the DM allows it you can rest cast in the last hour before long rest ends and basically use an unused spellslot for a long lasting effect
“I know I don’t tell you how to have fun but come on, 3 way sounds fun”
We see you Chris 👀 lol
Another thing to note about Holy Weapon: You don't need to cast it on yourself. If the party has a ranged attacking machine, like a full on rapid fire crossbow expert fighter, consider putting the Holy Weapon on their crossbow instead of your own spear. They'll probably get more use out of it than you would.
We're two minutes in and I see that Treantmonk has decided to follow the classic, sage wisdom that:
"A jack of all trades and master of none,
is often better than a master of one."
This should be a great build!
Dang right it is. You don't play a Sorcadin to specialize. You do so because you want to do EVERYTHING.
"Jack of all trades master of none is still better than someone who has only one gimmick and has to hide for the rest of the fight because he ran out of spell slots"
Poppin in to say you're super cool and an asset to the community!
seconded
Zurr is telling the truth.
thirded
I think people often get far to into damage and don’t value defense in the builds I see at high level. People seem to get saves being clutch people and High AC but resistance temp point points and saves seem to be an afterthought in so many builds I have seen. That is why so many (not all) seems to not understand how dangerous the Drake in the Drakewarden was compared to the beast master. I am glad you pointed out the usefulness of the spells you brought up at the end here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shield, Absorb Elements, and Blade Ward all apply to the Steed when using Find Steed
There are other great spells that also apply
Those would all apply to the steed as well
@@TreantmonksTemple @Treantmonk's Temple Would casting spirit guardians on yourself while mounted also cast it on your steed, so that we have one for 3d6 damage and our steed has one for 3d6 damage, plus the enemy would have to make two saving throws every time.
@Quiet In Sound yeah spirit shroud applies to your mount and can stack
Iirc rai per sage advice a spell 'targets' all the creatures it effects, even if the range is 'self', so spirit guardians wouldn't work with find steed spell sharing.
@@Malisteen but it's every spell that targets you while you are on your mount. So even if it does target others while it is active, you can cast it on yoirself and the mount
So, I just had to comment, because I've been playing this *exact* build on a PBP server practicably, Devotion instead of Glory, but what I just wanted to chime in with is:
The character obtained a Ruby Weave Gem. Should you have the insane luck that I did, and get such, you can now use your 9th level slot on a 9th level spell. Pretty fantastic.
Was super excited for this build and it didn't disappoint!
I didn't expect a lot of the decisions and your explanations of what you took, when, and why, really helped me to more deeply understand the game's mechanics.
Also, thank you for your detailed reply to my comment last video Chris!
Wonderful content as always 🙇♂️🙏
I 100% sxpected a paly dip and then sorcerer.
Extend spell is great for Aid as well. Cast it at your highest spell slot before a long rest. You wake up and still have 8 hours of extra hit points. You, and two other allies can have 40 extra hit points with a 9th level slot. So nice!
I was twisting around level 6 paladin before multiclassing. This was before Chris mentioned the find steed spell. I am convinced it's the right way to go for this build now.
One thing I love about your videos is that they go into game mechanics, and it always makes me want to create an alternative system which is something I've always been passionate about but given the fact that I'm most housebound and isolated I don't focus on the way I should; if I'm not going to present the game to a group it winds up on the back burner as fun ideas . . . but when you're talking about optimizing D&D I always start thinking "Well what if . . . " and eventually that might be motivation enough to do something.
I agree with you on the str decisions
think it's ok to keep your str relatively low. You could get your str to an 18 and be pretty happy, but you probably shouldn't even try to get it up to 20. Str boosting items are relatively common and only get more common at high levels. You kind of need specific weapons to make str good enough to worry too much about. For example a flame tongue or something will probably increase damage significantly but you lose your bonus action attack. your bonuses for having a +2 spear are so reliable and let you smite more frequently as you hit more frequently.
Hello again Chris! Watched a little bitof D4 Deep Dive, now back to the Playlist!
After the last video I tried to build my own soradin. It didn't go too great, instead I think I managed to optimize ineffectiveness to a new low.
But practice makes perfect.
I mean, you didn’t take monk, so it could only be a new personal low. So don’t feel to bad.
For those who don’t like those subclasses:
The Dark Knight (Oathbreaker/Shadow Sorcerer). It has some utility since you get Darkvission from Shadow Sorcerer, and the dog is gets your aura of protection buff. Seeing through darkness gives you advantage, advantage means crits, and paladins love crits.
I would love to see your spell lists for the Clockwork and Aberrant Mind variants too! Just because the Divine Soul list is so Cleric heavy, and I feel like a lot of people will also be building Sorcadins with the more arcane focused Sorcerers.
Clockwork can be really tanky with Armour of Agathys, Shield and their Bastion of Law feature.
I personally enjoy a Variant Tiefling so I can fly with medium armor. I always love your builds, keep it up!!
Side note. You mention the tactical advantage of focus fire. While I completely agree, and it's commonly accepted, almost no one goes on to mention over-kill. In the cases when the party is facing multiple foes, and focusing on one, it's not uncommon for the Big Hit Guy to down one enemy with enough extra damage they could have taken out another one. All that extra damage is wasted. This is where multiple target actions can pick up the slack.
So go ahead with your DPR based on multiple targets. It's a valuable comparison.
With the new Astral Drifter background from Spelljammer, you can cast spells at level 1. So with that and Variant human (or custom lineage) a Paladin could start with War Caster at level 1.
Meta gaming
that isnt meta gaming its min maxing @@darthdredz
I think for the Bborn variant you meant Saur-adin as in dino-SAUR?
Suffix. -saur. Used in the common names of extinct reptilian creatures such as dinosaurs.
As a dragon is like a flying dinosaur.
I'm a huge fan of this archetype. There are so many options it's hard to say if one is more or less optimal than another. I'm currently running a 3 way multiclass... sora like a coffeelock strapped to the back of a pally. Variant Human Crusher Feat, lvl 5 Vengeance Paladin, lvl 2 Prismari Sorcer, lvl 3 Dao Warlock pact of the chain.
When you need higher single target damage than what Spirit Guardians can provide consider Summon Celestial.
-1 hour duration
-Using a 6th-level spell it will attack 3 times for 2d6+8 radiant damage per round (Avenger) at 150 ft. short range, 600 ft. long range.
-It can heal for 2d8+6 HP once per day.
-It can soak 50 damage that could’ve gone to you or your party essentially saving you from having to use that Heal spell.
I recently joined an existing game that was 11th level (it will go to 20th) and one thing I have found insanely useful taking Aberrant Mind so far after a handful of sessions is switching out "Arms of Hadar" for "Silvery Barbs" on the Psionic Spells list. Being able to throw out Silvery Barbs like they are going out of fashion (well really once per round since you only get one reaction) is pretty nice even at high levels.
I think a neat variation to this build is to start with GWM, pick up defense fighting style, and go devotion paladin. This soradin build cannot afford to increase STR until much later on, but devotion's channel divinity does offset that burden by using CHA to increase +hit.
Plus, attacking with a big sword is just way cooler than attacking with a spear.
My party is building itself right now, and I recommended the same fest to our Soradin. Of course we have an Order Cleric, so getting +10 damage when you have so many attacks is gonna scale really well.
I approve of the mild jab at Mearls.
We all know that save or suck spells are generally bad, but there's something so satisfying about quickened hold person/monster into double attacks. Not optimal, but so much fun
Another excellent Sorcadin build. I just can't move on from a Turn 1 Conquering Presence/Necrotic Shroud + Quickened Spirit Guardians from the Fallen Aasimar Conquest/Divine Shield build. It's just so psychologically satisfying.
Thanks for calling it Sorcadin instead of Soradin.
I'm doing a Sword n Board Redemption Clockwork Soul Sorcadin. Currently only level 5 right now. Gunning for 6 in Pally then I might focus or sorc. Feats I'm using is War Caster. Definitely gonna pick up Tough to make up for Sorc hit dies. Definitely getting Resilient Con.
Amulet of vitality is also recommended.
We dont get to twin the blade cantrips anymore, but we can still quicken them and thats a big part of a sorcadins kit. The ability to nova hard when necessary.
Thanks for calling it Sorcadin instead of Soradin.
That chance to hit comment at 17 minutes or so had me smiling. You're right, if course.
That said, you're giving guesses with a precision of two decimal places, so I can see where the commenter is coming from.
I think telekinetic would be really great with the gem dragonborn variant! you could use it to pull enemy into spirit guardians or push it into web!
If the goal of this build is to be a Jack of All trades, and be solid in many different aspects or in many different scenarios... I would suggest going with the blind fighting style and picking up fog cloud as one of your sorcerer spells. What I have noticed playing a paladin is that you are usually in a pretty good spot, and you can handle tough fights well usually. But when the DM tries to challenge you, or the party finds something that is really not great for them, or theyre just in a bad spot, fog cloud can be really good for leveling the playing field. With blindsight this basically gives us a double buff on offense and on defence. Plus honestly blindsight just has a lot of other useful situations. As a paladin you already ignore a lot of effects or resist them well, being able to deal with the blinded condition, and handle all other scenarios that dont require sight is pretty good, and personally I would trade the 2 damage per attack for that versatility.
I think you forgot that with Divine soul sorcerer you can swap out your alignement spell (in this case Bane) for another first level spell. So you can pick up healing word to bonus action bring an unconscious ally back up.
PAM + Dueling Fighting Style + Shield + Spear is the perfect build for a Feat starved Paladin. All the benefits of sword and board but a lot more damage.
I think I'd like to use Tasha's Otherworldly Guise on an abjuration wizard. Seems like it would be pretty fun there.
i personally would build differently though i don't see anything wrong with your choices. i just prefer staying away from heavy armor (i like decent initiative and the ability to stealth as needed) and like the value of a hexblade 1 dip. i don't see a big value in going for extra attack either as we can build around booming blade and just mitigate the dmg lost from a lack of extra attack by having more spell slots to smite more often. in my games, while i found aura of protection powerful i found that it usually boosts just myself and the steed as the paladin tended to be on the frontlines and everyone else was a ranged attacker staying in the backlines. with that said, i went with divine soul 1->hexblade 1->divine soul 3->pal 2->divine soul 7 progression. quicken spell was also mitigating the loss of extra attack.
The Booming Blade aspect of this build is really nice. It's really good, and I like that it's consistently effective. But because of the investment: one class for Booming Blade, one for weapon proficiency, at least one feat for War Caster, and maybe a second for Polearm Master, it does a great job of balancing the good effect with a reasonable cost. So it doesn't feel like an exploitation of the rules, just a cool combination.
Yeah it really sucks that it doesn't work RAW, because it's such a cool combo.
Love the Videos, thanks for the Effort in these builds!
I mean with animate objects you could just keep a stock of 10 +1 magic daggers which would be considered tiny objects. So then you don't have to worry about damage resistance, this will even take down a barbarian because most barbarians are not immune to magical piercing damage! As a 15th level character, which is the point you can cast this as a sorcadin, gold won't be an issue to buy very low level magic weapons, and you can probably even make them yourself by then!
Really hope you will do a full video on that Soar Adin in the future as it also seems really cool. And flying enemies can be the bane of a Paladin.
Something to remember, any transformation spell also applies to your steed. With Draconic Transformation those are two breath weapons per round, crazy good damage.
According to the designers, the dragon breath spell cannot be twinned since they say it targets other creatures with the breath, so presumably that same logic would apply to sharing draconic transformation with find steed.
@@TreantmonksTemple RAW and by logic it makes no sense, I would completely allow it!
Hey Treantmonk,
First off, thank you for all you do for the community.
I’m currently at level 9, 6 vengeance/3 divine soul, planning on doing a very similar build to this, so thank you for the write up, thoughts, and ideas.
My question is what are your thoughts using spiritual weapon instead of booming blade? It’s got more flexibility, only needs to use one spell slot, it is much more flexible by being able to use it against other enemies within 20ft…
My DM kind of uses his knowledge against us, if you have advantage or put something up like booming blade, he just won’t move and always attacks with multiple enemies so mobility is not as big of a problem.
I’m also using shadow blade in dim light or darkness for advantage on all Melee attacks.
Thanks for all you do, and if anybody else has ideas or thoughts on this, please let me know. Thanks
this is actually a great video for War Cleric Domain characters too. Sure, no Smite or Aura of Protection, and no need for Polearm Master, just upcast Spirit Guardians 1st rnd and then upcast Spiritual weapon 2nd rnd, then either attack or dodge. High AC with a shield, any ancestry/race. But those spells are even easier as a straight caster, goes to show how Spirit guardians is so powerful.
3 way sounds fun! Had me cracking up
Would like to see a version of this build with paladin 2 / sorcerer X too. Please :)
The reason for going Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X is mainly to be a Sorcadin while not being a Sorcadin. Essentially, its the flavour of a character who is able to hold their own in melee, but really is a primary caster. It plays mostly like a Sorcerer two levels earlier, but can take a little extra bashing and can deal a little bashing. Smiting rarely comes up as useful for this character since they will rarely meet the conditions that make it useful. As Chris mentioned previously, you might as well just grab a level of Fighter instead.
The greater choice for this playstyle, in my opinion, is the Sorlock. Hexblade choice gets you to the same rough point in bashing potential (both taking and dealing), however, the Eldritch Blast + Agonising + Repelling is so good. There will be rounds where your best option in terms of resource management is to just carry on concentrating on your spell, at a distance, while throwing Eldritch Blast at the enemy - likely this comes up more than the lost spell slots from being two level behind in Sorcerer. The spell level behind can hurt, though.
Staff of Power Polearm master Sorcadin bonking and casting =P
Player : imma use my staff of power to cast divine smite on the giant
DM : you cant do that
Player : sure i can *smash the giants toe with the staff
I play a level 17 Sorcadin with 6 levels of Paladin in a party where I'm the only multiclasser. I can easily keep up or surpass the damage of all others, besides the rogue. I went Mountain Dwarf oath of Devotion & Storm Sorcery. Gish play-style where I smite mostly only on crits, and choose stormy/thundery spells for flavour. It's a super super fun character.
With a fighter, barbarian, rogue and ranger, I went mostly Sorcerer so that our Bard wasn't the only good caster in the party. Also, I've never ever failed a concentration check.
About spirit guardians and movement in it. Your movment speed is a limit of how much feet you can use to move in turn. RAW if you are in spirit guardians range as an enemy, and you move 15 ft.(out of spell range) you used up 30 ft of movement in that turn. If your move speed is 30 that is all your movment, and you need to dash if you wanna move more.
That's how it would work if the spell said it created difficult terrain, but instead the spell says the creature's speed is halved. It's unclear what happens if a creature's speed goes up part-way through their turn. I think most DMs would let a character that cast Longstrider, Haste or otherwise obtained a movement speed buff to move the full amount after the increase, so I could see a similar argument applying here. It does make Spirit Guardians much less good as a control spell if that's how it's ruled, as any 30-ft speed creature could escape it and still use the rest of their speed (unless affected by something else like difficult terrain or another movespeed debuff).
Again, you definitely kept your promise! Thanks man!!!
"Dipping into Sorcerer is tempting but getting to level 6 paladin should be the number one priority" Me, who did dip. Oops.
Being looking forward to watching this
I am hoping you will take a crack at pal2/swordbard rest in teh future, I am really interested in what you would come up with
A 3 level paladin "dip" still grants access to level 9 sorcerer spells by level 20, but at the cost of multi attack. 5 levels in pally creates a spell casting, smite stacking multi attack beast, but one that will never reach level 9 spells.
It is for this reason I favor a 2 level start in pally (martial weapons, heavy armor, shield and smite) for one of the bard, warlock or wizard sub classes with multi attack when going for a pally/caster build. Best of both worlds, no need to compromise.
Frankly, the build is a bit painful in the level 5-7 stretch. Suffered through that once, never again. Now I only bust that build out for one shots or joining mid campaign when told to create a level 8+.
Currently playing a socardin (2 paladin:11 sorcerer). I wanted to create a more powerful sorcerer, capable to be in the frontline.
Ability scores and skills: I must say my character is decent to good in some skills and really bad with the rest. Overall, I like this since I can use this for rping.
Saving throws: I exchanged Wisdom for Constitution and as a spellcaster, that is not a good trade but I have war caster and I rarely fail Con saves.
Party role: my original and current role is to be a secondary tank and support character. My DM allowed me to improve my shield (spellcasting focus) over time, increasing it to +3 now. With heavy armor and shield and I have an AC of 21 or 26 with the shield spell. I have been surrounded by 6 enemies and escaped unharmed several times. This takes all my low levels quickly but it creates plenty of time for my party to take down the enemies around me.
Damage: I don't deal a lot of damage unless I use a spell (animate objects is my favourite) but as I mentioned my role isn't that. You can always smite.
Conclusion: The ability to be a full spellcaster capable to be in the frontline is stupidly useful, holding the line against an adult dragon for at least 5 rounds while the rest of my part healed. My case is unique since I can have a high AC but I strongly recommend this build if you want to be a semi-tank and a full spellcaster. As mentioned in the video, you can take many routes so I would suggest thinking exactly which role you want to fulfill in the party AND discuss it with your DM
Hmm would have thought that Sentinel Feat would also be an option at level 1. More reaction attacks starting out with, more battlefield control, and that nifty combo with mirror image once higher level. Also allows going sword and board. Guess it also depends on party comp and what role you want to play. Are you the main tank? Off tank? DPS? Buffer etc.
Regarding the proficiencies I would always pick Persuasion or Intimidation. Given the high charisma you are often the face of the party.
I think when people say chance to hit is 65% they mean like the standard level 5, +7 to hit against 15 AC. But here's the thing 5% of that is rolling the 20, so if you calculate crit into dpr, you can't count that twice. So yes 65% to hit, 60% to hit normally and 5% to crit and the math checks out.
Also if you use the same hit chance for the baseline as for what you compare it to, there is basically no difference anyway.
30:00 I don't know if you're correct here, IMO the rules are unclear about order of events. The way the PHB phrases opportunity attacks, the opportunity attack happens before the enemy leaves your reach, which implies that it's the _intent_ of leaving your reach that triggers the opportunity attack, not the leaving itself. This interpretation would mean that the creature will still be within reach while surrounded by booming energy, and thus can choose to not leave reach after being struck.
Just from a balance perspective too I think this is more fair since it seems a bit busted to get a 1d6+3d8+STR opportunity attack at level 5.
That's a fair interpretation, and if the opponent chooses not to take the movement they wanted, I'm more than happy with that.
I'm actually interested in this concept.
You hear that, Treant? Jonathan‘s surprised that you actually did something interesting. :P
Just ball busting, not serious. :-)
I feel like I need to write a great amount here as something here I believe got missed. How the Sorcerer cantrip booming blade interacts with quicken spell and twin spell. These features combined provides additional attacks at the cost of sorcery point. If you go 2/2 pally/sorcerer in the early game that is two attack a turn prior to level 5 which is not bad given its resource dependency . The Tiefling Zariel Variant for the paladin attribute bonuses , paladin 2 additional smite spells, and access to tiefling racial feats which provide additional resistances. Finally Storm Sorcerer Heart of the Storm which provides lightning and thunder damage resistance. Combining these feature means you have resistance to Fire, Cold, Poison, Lightning and Thunder. Find a ring of acid resistance and you can ditch that Absorb Elements Spell. Again this might not be the most optimized build over all as we lack access to the spell mentioned in the video but I wanted to share what I believe to be a very strong, and spicy Soradin born for that decent into Avernus Module. I loved this video and hope you like my choices for a 'Infernal Paladin'.
Spoiler ~Tieflings in Descent into Avernus have a chance of growing a pair of wings to beat off with~
I got a good dice roll so I built a sorcadin with a charisma of 20 at level 1 (18 + racial) and Dex based damage (I was building around shadow blade and wasn’t originally going to dip into Paladin) and barely had a 13 in strength for the multiclass. My Int is like a 0 and my Wis is a -2 I believe. It’s a fun character to RP.
Anyways, it’s pretty cool to have a +5 to charisma and +4 to Dex early on. It helps with wanting to make a hungry sorcadin that wants all the feats. Considering my campaign will want to go to level 11, I’ll get 2 feats, so having high stats really helps with the power hungry nature in sorcadin. I believe my constitution is a +2.
I have a similar build! hahaha. But I went conquest paladin 6. In my opinion, is the best subclass for now because it gives you the armor of agarthys and this spell is awesome to upcast. I got GWM instead because my bonus actions would be busy. Here's what I do: Round1: Bonus action armor of agarthys, attack twice, round2: bonus actions spiritual weapon, attack thrice. round 3: Bonus action spirit guardians, attack twice. Round4: bonus actions: Convert a spell slot into more sorcery points because you already used 4 out of 5. You can bonus action mirror image also, giving yourself more defense. This build is action economy heavy, that's why I don't use polearm master but GWM. I use my warhorse as an ally to give more damage and when possible makes my enemies prone besides to help me flank, always giving me advantage on my attacks. I know this build is about DPR, I think shield and misty step should be highlighted as tools to make the battlefield more interesting. Out of combat also. I use spells like detect thoughts with subtle spell against NPCs all the time to know what they are they are hiding.
I doubt I'm the first to mention this as this is over a year old at this point, but something worth mentioning in regards to racial choice
What you could do is take the Gem Dragonborn and use a Double-bladed Scimitar with the Defense fighting style. This ends up with a smidge less damage than PAM+Dueling with one less AC, but its close enough imo to be effective, especially with the benefits Dragonborn gives you. Meanwhile, you save feats, you dont need PAM and you dont need War Caster, at least not immediately. You could point buy a 16 STR and a 17 CHA, take something like Fey Touched to bump the CHA up at level 4 and have max CHA by level 10. The nice thing is once you have those Sorcerer levels and a lot of spells and bonus action options, you could decide then to swap out the Double-Bladed Scimitar if you want and it wont feel like you wasted a feat or anything.
Just some food for thought
I think, I don't know if I'm wrong, but your steed could breath as bonus action for 8d6 too... Sorry for late comment, but, I am doing a Open Sea / Sorcerer for Taldorei right now...And, of course, I revisited this post for ideas... its 19th level, but worth it to mention... Thanks, Chris.
One way to get around warcaster is Sorcerer's subtle spell. So long as the spell doesn't have material components, you can subtle spell to cast with your hands full
That works but you can only use one metamagic per spell unless the metamagic says otherwise. If you take war caster, you can take the attack action turn 1 in combat and quicken spell something like spirit guardians as a bonus action. If you cast spirit guardians with subtle spell turn 1 in combat that uses your action and then you cannot take the attack action turn 1. That is the reason to take war caster with subtle spell in your toolkit.
@@AlwaysGrowing0 true. But I could quicken it round one, draw my weapon, and attack
@@AlwaysGrowing0 I mainly use subtle for reaction casting shield.
Should you find a Bloodwell Vial on your adventures, it give your Sorcerer spells the advantage of a Clerical focus, only needing to wear the vial. Therefore, with War Caster, a Soradin can cast all of their spells equipement in hand without component restrictions, somatic or material.
@thewholehorse7140 unfortunately, I'm rather limited on magic items. Plus, I traded the lance for a Staff of Defense, so I don't have that issue anymore and I have a magic weapon.
I'm playing in AL so I can only have 3 magic items per adventure at the tier I'm at. I have the staff, a cloak of displacement, and a ring of protection right now.
Hey just to let you guys know: If you're playing Strixhaven or your DM let's you take the strixhaven student background and you pick Lorehold you can get spirit guardians in your spell list that way so you can get a different sorcerer subclass. Offer to drop the feat if it's a problem.
I'd love to see a Paladin/Warlock multiclass build too!
Check out the Dungeon dudes witch-knight video.
Love watching ur videos great content as always ur up there as some of the best and build channels keep it up. I'm trying to get back into dnd last time I played was 3.5 in high school 14 years ago and now I always wanna try 5e and always love playing range or spell character builds love to try out a spell sniper build that shoot spells from super far away and hit super hard as hell too chance for a video on that
Hey Chris! Love your videos as always, especially these last several because I'm a huge fan of Gish characters.
This could apply to all your remakes I'd be really curious to get your take on how this new soradin compares to your old one (ultimate spellsword). Do you think there were some problems with the first one that you addressed here? Or was this just a different take on it?
9:24 Booming Blade targets the caster, not the target of the attack. Thus, RAW it can not be used with War Caster.
Wat i like about crits with my dm is if u crit it does the automatic damage plus the roll
My personal preference is paladin 2/hexblade 2/sorcerer all the way.
Charisma is basically all we need. Yes we are less powerful in melee due to not having extra attack(which is a big thing for paladins), but you do get to be a classic Sorlock. So get up and personal, or stay back and blast away. You get the best of both worlds
PS. This is because the only time I've played a sorcadin was as "animator fake" the lesser known cousin of anomander rake from Malazan. And that felt like the correct build for that character
1 level hex blade lets you use your charisma for dmg, and have a better crit range. Which pairs with smite nicely. I'd take that over an additional level of sorcerer. The Warlock slot is just sorcery point fuel, strength 13 for multi class min, we are mounted 90% of the time with find steed making the movement penalty hardly relevant.
PAM granting a bonus action attack is awesome for nova rounds, like when fighting a boss or dangerous monster. That extra attack is an extra chance to strike. GWM gets so frustrating with nothing to mitigate that -5, especially in the lower levels. You miss miss and miss all the time. I suppose Bless could somewhat mitigate the -5 to hit, but burning a round to cast it is bad given the tight action economy of 5e (and how short many combats are). Vengeance Pal can get advantage occasionally. That would somewhat mitigate the -5.
I was just watching the Double-Bladed Scimitar video from 2020, wondering if that might have uses here. The character is pretty feat-starved, however, so freeing up that feat could make sense, in theory. If you could get an 18 strength at some point, that'd be a nice perk.
Since you can't start with Warcaster as Variant Human and a half-feat at level with either VH or Custom Lineage probably doesn't really stack up, the best I can think of is to go Mountain Dwarf for two +2s to start with 17s in Str/Cha, to use a single ASI later to get a pair of 18s.
Level 4 is still going to be Warcaster probably, so that ASI for double 18s isn't going to hit until 10th level. Once it happens, you have +1 to hit, but -1 damage compared to a Spear with Dueling. That's generally a good trade, but nothing major. You lose access to +2 AC from a shield, however. You have a choice of a fighting style, but that's not going to be super impressive. Great Weapon FS basically just puts your damage on par with the Spear version, or Defense claws back some of the AC but you're still behind. One of the utility Fighting Styles (cantrips, blindsight, protecting allies) wouldn't be bad, but nothing too special. At least at first glance, having 18 strength with a DBS build doesn't strike me as that much better.
But even if that 18 strength was truly great after level 10, the cost getting there was high. You're missing +2 damage and +2 AC for the first 9 levels. Double scimitar does not seem worth.
I know it's RAW but I really don't think you should be able to use the bonus action from polearm master if you're using a spear one handed
I agree it seems pretty silly.
Hollywood has the answer! - have a look at movie Troy - Brad Pitt spear and shield fight vs Hector, really nice.
It does not have to be the opposite end of the spear, that just flavour. You could always hit someone with the middle staff of the spear with a swipping attack. A spear is just a quarterstaff with a metal point. Think of the swipe like swinning a sword instead of a direct stab with the tip.
Love the build! What would you do differently of, for example, you could be assured you'd have guantlets of ogre power by level 4 (I read that is common in adventure league play)? Presumably stop at 13 STR and go custom lineage instead for infravision and higher starting CHA?
I think there might be a niche disadvantage to extending Spirit Guardians outside of battle. The spell description reads
"When you cast this spell, you can designate any number of creatures you can see to be unaffected by it."
Meaning if you run into other creatures you don't want to shred, you may have to not stand near them. How often will this be relevant? Not often I'm thinking. But it's definitely something.
It came up for me a couple times in a Curse of Strahd campaign playing as a Light Cleric. The spell only lasts 10 minutes (or 20 if extended) so it didn't actually cause any issues, I just had to wait a bit farther away before joining my party to talk to an NPC.
1:55 George Costanza, the jack of all trades
Hey Chris loved the video as always would it hurt the build extremely badly to add a one level dip maybe at level 1 or 2 to get hexblade so you aren't quite as MAD and maybe a mountain dwarf for their unique armor stuff with Tashas ability to give bonuses
I think it's Tasha that allows the bonuses to be moved where you want them and you do have less feats but without being so mad maybe it could make up for it... just a thought and please would love some feedback. I find this character build very interesting
A great build, I will say. However, I think this would be disappointing in a campaign that started at low levels. Sure, you start Paladin and that is good, but it isn’t sorcadin. If the campaign went from 2-11, you only truly execute on the concept for the final couple levels. Personally I lean toward Paladin 2 sorc x builds, even though it’s weaker in the long run
Thanks for calling it Sorcadin instead of Soradin.
Note that Find Steed could double the value of certain sorcerer spells.
One optimal spell is casting Ceremony and getting the entire party married to each other. Then when the duration wears out we kill and resurrect everyone so we can cast Ceremony again.
Chris, you are wrong. Using 60% is incorrect because the standard most people use to hit is 65%. By not using the standard to hit percentage you make it slightly more vexing to compare the numbers in your builds to anyone else's numbers. Its not that hard to rerun them to get an apples to apples but still. It's best that everyone uses the same number for easy comparisons
To me, it makes more sense to start Sorc for the con prof and either use halfplate with a 14 in Dex which isnt too hard to get with pointbuy... or if you insist on plate, take heavily armored which not only gives you heavy armor prof but also a Str bump
I want to try and make a Half-Elf sorcadin based around the shadowblade spell in my next game...only difficulty is how long it will take a while for my build to come online as I envision it
Thanks for calling it Sorcadin instead of Soradin.
Currently a 6th level draconic bloodline sorcerer.
I'm the party melee damage dealer/tank
I'll take 2 levels in paladin by the time I hit 10th
5e optimizing scene is about damage. Please do a video about pacifist builds choices. Be useful in combat without any damaging and not just a healbot. School of Enchantment or Bards maybe. Thank you.
Check out his “god mage” build, it does exactly this
Pacifist characters are just inherently suboptimal. There’s a serious difference between a character that doesn’t focus on damage and a character that refuses to do damage.
@Capt. Fail Maybe. Doing decent damage is not difficult. Building something with a clear constraint makes it an interesting topic for video.
@@JD-wu5pf For (1) Combat is just 1/3 of the game, you can be an incredibly effective and important character without being the best at combat.
For (2) In a ton of cases you doing damage yourself is suboptimal. Many times helping your allies do damage is more effective that you doing damage yourself.
@Professor Thinker Why does it bother you that a pacifistic build is deemed "suboptimal," in the grand scheme of things. I think it's perfectly fine to play a suboptimal build, and I won't disagree with anyone who calls it such.
Oh snap! That build name!
Next hour is gonna be a good one ((((:
Have sou ever thought about a minotaur swarmkeeper focussing on DTR and WIS for ultimate forced movement feast?
I've been playing around with potential minotaur builds, definitely will eventually have one in a vid.
So looking foreward to this. I wonder if metamagic adept for quicken spell is worth it to get everyone in place for entangle/web
PLEASE! A video about Loot! I'm really lost about how much give, the system in the GM Guide is so bad...
I wonder what the dpr is of Tashas other worldly guise is if you took great weapon master instead of inspiring leader. Also if you add to that bless assuming you have a party member who casts it on you.
So the reason 65% is the assumed is typically due to the average AC of creatures at an equal CR to your level should be hit 65% of the time, assuming point buy and maxing your attack stat first.
Yes, though IME usually you end up fighting monsters a few CRs above your level and often people take a feat first so it may be more accurate to assume 55-60% chance to hit.
@@agilemind6241 definitely a valid point, although @Treantmonk does factor in feats taken as decreasing hit chance.
qick questtion:
Spirit Guardiens is a spell that targets the caster to cerate a spelleffect that tagets outher creatures.
Does my "Find Steet Horse" extend it teh spell or maybe even replicate it?
Rather than casting Aid on the Steed, wouldn't you just cast it on yourself and share it with the steed (getting an extra effect out of the spell)?
Sharing spells only works if a spell targets only yourself.
@@TreantmonksTemple Ah. That makes sense. Thanks for the reply.
I am about to start the new vecna campaign and am planning on building this (or something very similar). What changes would you make for a character that starts at level 10 and goes until 20? You mentioned GWM as one possible change. Anything Else? Would you consider a hexblade here in that case? Thanks!
Question. Does spirit guardians work on your steed do you could separate and have two going?
I'm assuming you don't do this because its near impossible to even attempt to calculate, but I'm pretty sure bless beats every other concentration spell for damage. The assumption here is your party is full of dps optimised characters, and chances are bless is giving between 1/4 and 1/8 more damage to each person it affects, so in some parties it is worth a full characters dps on its own let alone any other damage you can do.