What a fantastic resource for optimizers. This summarizes literally years worth of multiclassing experience for someone who plays DnD once a week, especially if they're doing campaigns rather than oneshots. I love calling out specific levels and stressing the importance of the order you're taking classes. Most guides just give a general grade to the multiclass potential of classes and sometimes calls out specific subclasses, assuming that the reader is following plot. Hopefully this will end the all too common tragedy of multiclassers simply alternating levels in their two classes.
As someone who plays almost exclusively between levels 3 and 10, I like dipping rogue 3 on my fighters. 2d6 sneak attack, expertise, and cunning action are fun additions, both mechanically and thematically, to pretty much any dex build.
I play wizards probably the majority of the time, and full spellcasters almost exclusively. And yet, the most fun I have *ever* had with 5e was playing a Swashbuckler with five levels of Battle Master to high levels.
@@certifiedfunnyguy Sneak Attack and Trip Attack are like peanut butter and chocolate. Using a whip can let you forego disengaging to always dash or hide with your Cunning Action. It somehow never got old. Lol
@@certifiedfunnyguy I did that with my Halfling, Clyde McFinnigan. Battlemaster 6 into Swashbuckler 3; Hand crossbow (w/ Expert and Sharpshooter feats) w/ Rapier. My little gypsy John Wick. An absolute pleasure to play.
I have such a hard time passing on ASI's at the 4's (or 6/10 in some cases). If I'm going to dip 3, I generally prefer to just dip 4 so I can get the feat/asi. I know this isn't as optimal in some cases, but... I am a sucker for the additional customization.
Warlock does me so dirty on this. I go for that 2 level dip, see the bump in pact slots(up to 2nd level) and pact boon at 3, then gotta stay for the ASI.
I’m currently adding all the builds that have been presented on this channel into D&D Beyond for use in a gladiatorial arena in my current campaign. The players are going to be facing off against themed teams in progressively higher level matches. Not sure what the full team for the final round is, but it’s definitely gonna include the Do-It-All Mage. I’m working on some of my own multi class builds to add in, so this is perfect timing!
What you'll realize is that controlling multiple player character is hard and time consuming. The teams are also going to be much stronger then regular monsters.
I'd say dipping warlock 3 could be an orange. You can get a strong familiar or a magic weapon that can change form and be summoned back if lost, or lots of ritual spells, and 2nd level spellcasting.
Great video! The one-level warlock dip should be green or blue, though. Along with Hexblade and Undead warlock being good dips, the Genie warlock is also a good dip. You effectively get a demiplane to store things in, and you get bottled respite, which is a decent amount of damage every turn that scales with your proficiency bonus.
It also leaves open the possibility of sleeper builds where a previously bad option might be found to shine, so he doesn't have to backtrack on rating it poorly
You presented wizard 17 as green, but I would make the argument for wizard 18. Being able to cast shield or silvery barbs every turn is an enormous bump for many wizards, especially those that don't have many uses for their reaction. I'd probably give it a purple rating. At the very least, pick it up after your two levels in fighter.
Depends on the dip but wizard 18 is not as impactful as you think. At that level you can easily spend all your lvl 1 and lvl 2 spells on shield/barbs without problem but the main problem is if anything attacks you, they probably will autohit (except for nat 1) with something like a +18 to hit. Also you really need to save your reaction for counterspell at that level.
@@coldfusion230 I mean, truth is that, while you always keep counterspell on hand, it's typically very easy to tell which encounters you're safe to use a different reaction. Don't need counterspell if you're smart about fighting many types of high CR monsters. ...Which is why Dragons should always use the optional draconic spellcasting rules. Never shoulda been optional when Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer is in the PHB. ...Edit: Also, a few monsters that do have magic can't be counterspelled anyway.
I suppose Jump points and dipping is mostly really the only terms you need to know in Optimization. Like leveling multiple classes in a more even manner is very situationally useful or just done for flavour. Or at higher level, when you've already gotten your build together and every level is just a different plus depending on what you want
Fathomless makes a great single-level dip for Swashbuckler Rogues since they frequently don’t need to use Cunning Action to Disengage. Pop the Slasher feat on and you can kite like a boss. Edit to add: It can be a good dip for Bard and Sorcerer, too. With the Swashbuckler, it can be fun to run Custom Lineage and grab Slasher at level 1 for an 18 starting Dexterity. At level 4, grab an ASI or Fey Touched to bump Charisma and grab some decent spells. Then grab Fathomless at level 5 for the tentacle and Booming Blade…and profit. If there are invocations you want to grab, coming back for a second level is always a nice option, but not super necessary (Agonizing Blast would give you a good ranged option, and Armor of Shadows and Devil’s Sight are always useful).
This is what I'm thinking about doing for my Aberrant Mind sorcerer. It's flavorful, and lets me have a lot of movement control. I'll have Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy, and either Grasp of Hadar or Agonizing Blast (got Eldritch Adept at level 1 as a free feat, so my cute little eldritch horror could make herself look normal) with the tentacles as well as some spells to push people into from myself and the other characters :3
I thought DnD was for driving your DM crazy with your level 8 character with an AC of 27 and a plus 5 to all save, while the rest rest of the party has an AC of 16. So the DM get a kraken to throw a BOAT at your character. And every one at the table bust up laughing when my character not only survived, but then ask if you got another boat. At which point my guy then ran away.
@@DrChacatumbi Paladin 8. Cha 15+2racial+1 Fey Touched (Shield spell)@lvl 4+2 @ lvl 8 = 20 (+5 to all saves with Aura of Protection). Plate Armor +1 (19) + any Shield (2) + Defense Fighting Style (1) + Shield Spell (5) = 27 AC. Obviously I'm just guessing as there's not enough information to be certain.
34:45 A 1 level Wizard dip worth mentioning. 1st level ritual casting is huge if your party doesn’t have a wizard. Most of the things you mentioned come at 1st level.
Heads up for Rangers! If you are in a seafaring campaign Ranger 6 is wild. Climb speed and swim speed plus 5 feet of extra movement. This basically turns shipboard combat into a 3d affair while your zooming around hitting targets from atop the rigging. Then the swin speed gets rid of disadvantage whenever you are attacking in underwater combat. Plus if your multiclassing with a full caster class you get to that extra spell slot progression at level 6.
@@larstollefsen1236 eldritch knight comes to mind although quite a few fighter subclasses could make this work. Rogue would be another pretty solid choice, this version of multi attack can add so much to the rogue's arsenal. If you can work the stats out hex blade would be a bunch of fun eldritch blasting and weapon attacking every turn (the Hex Slinging Singer as I call it)
@@ryanscanlon2151 All of those options are terrible. 😔 That's only going to dramatically weaken your spellcasting, Eldritch Blast is especially bad because I seriously doubt you have the Charisma to use it.
@@larstollefsen1236 it's a 6 level dip into wizard not a one level hex blade dip, you would focus charisma not int and mostly take utility spells from wizard. The combination of warlock and normal spell slots from a mix like this adds a lot of flexibility the with casting spells the warlock doesn't normally get. Plus imagine popping a 5th lvl spirit shroud then doing crossbow expert/sharp shooter and eldritch blast together. At 20 you would aside be making 6 attacks every turn except for the set up round. Base damage 50+ 12d8+4d10+2d6 if you while combo hits
As a multiclassing enthusiast, i agree with most of the points here. only thing i disagree on is tagging a fighter 2 dip as green when you've already said it works great in any build in the game. imo that's a sign that that's a blue dip. action economy is king in 5e. gaining a fighting style and armor/con save profs are great value as well.
Not even a mention of 1st level rogue dip? It gets you: 1 extra skill proficiency, 2 expertise, proficiency in thieves tools, and 1d6 sneak attack. That's almost like the Skill Expert feat, just slightly different.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Elemental Gift is a 6th-level Genie feature. So you would need to invest 6 levels of Warlock to access it. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
For Artificer, 7 and 10 are also great jump points due to Flash of Genius at 7, which let's you add your Int modifier to yours or someone else's ability check or saving throw Int times per day. Moreover, jumping at 7 as opposed to 10 means you can fit more wizard into your build, even getting access to 9th-level spell slots for upcasting.
One more very specific use I've seen for a paladin dip: Barbarians. Go barb 5, pick up smite and a fighting style, finish out in Bard. It was an interesting take, though 13 CHA is hard for a barbarian to justify.
The thing to remember when you're talking about capstone class abilities is that you MIGHT get to play a level 20 character for anywhere from as much as one ADVENTURE to as little as ONE SESSION. Frankly, capstone abilities are never even a consideration when I'm planning a character's advancement. I mean, why in the world would I (for example) miss out on having Action Surge or the Shield, Magic Missile and Find Familiar spells (and all the first-level rituals, and a wizard's subclass abilities) for 16 or 17 levels just so I can have unlimited Wild Shape for one?
I’m a little surprised Warlock 3 didn’t come up as a jumping of point as Pact Boons can be pretty spectacular. Although the ASI progression does, I admit, hurt quite a bit.
I think a 2 or 3 level dip into sorcerer is particularly useful for warlocks. 1 level gets you shield, and divine souls gets you cure wounds if you take gift of the ever-living ones. 2 levels with metamagic adept gets you a good sorcery point conversion rate for your pact slots, and a third level gets you more metamagic options and some 2nd level slots for utility spells.
Six levels of barbarian should probably be blue. Taking one more level for another rage and subclass feature is certainly worth it if you choose a good subclass like the Zealot. One reroll of any failed save once per rage is fantastic. You get four rerolls per day, which makes it about as good as the Lucky feat.
My Battle Master Fighter is going to be going into Paladin the rest of the way after they get improved multiattack. While their smites aren't going to be super crazy that high level, Oath of Vengeance provides goodies like Hunter's Mark and Vow of Enmity.
Armorer and Battlesmith both offer some form of Int-based attack rolls, too. With the round-up on caster levels, I can see that being OK, if that’s a useful feature for you. Better than Wizard spell progression or the linear scaling of Rogue sneak attack? Well, that’s a tougher decision.
I think warlock 3 is a good dip/jump point as well. from level 1 to level 2, your spell slots double, but from level 2 to level 3, your spell slots also double (in power). They also double in the number of sorcery points they are worth if you are a sorlock. But of course you also get your pact boon, and pact of the chain with an invisible imp familiar is very powerful. If find familiar is the best 1st level spell in the game, then an invisible flying familiar with 10hp that can manipulate objects, is intelligent, can speak, shapechange, and see through magical darkness is even better. If nobody in the party has scouting handled, then this is an option that is basically unrivaled other than straight up casting Arcane Eye.
I'm surprised you didn't even give a rank score to the 3 lvl rogue dip, surely at least some of the rogue subclass features are worth while to pick up for certain builds.
@@studentofsmith mastermind is a great dip for support characters, especially Order Domain Cleric's to further boost Voice of Authority. And arcane trickster is a sneaky way for classes with low Int to snag a few key wizard spells
For Druids: Wildfire Druid and Stars Druid have pretty good jump points at 2 as well. Stars Druid gives you a bonus for Concentration checks (and PB number of Guiding Bolts) and the Wildfire Druid gives you a companion that may not scale in durability with multiclassing, but can teleport every turn and can easily avoid taking damage.
@@alanschaub147 D&D Deep Dive recently did a video on the Wildfire Druid Cleaver. It was a pretty fun Wildfire Druid/Ranger multiclass, but it was mostly Druid levels. I think if I was going to do just two levels, I'd probably go mostly Ranger and use it for its bonus action attack and occasional teleport option. Its main power is its incredible utility, not so much in its damage output.
@@alanschaub147 I went Kobold for the cantrip Green-Flame Blade. But I think you could really go with anything if you're only doing it as a two level dip. If you want to get creative, maybe some options like: - Hobgoblins, who get bonuses from the number of allies near them for Saving Face/Fortune of the Many - Lizardfolk or Dhampir, because there's nothing stopping you from using Hungry Jaws/Vampiric Bite on your own summon to get some temporary hit points, especially since you get back both Wildshape uses on a short rest. Plus the visual of your character eating your fire spirit when you're done with it is kind of amazing.
@@Aaron-pj3ky Kobold has such great thematic flavor! I was thinking of playing a Twilight Cleric with a two level Wildfire Druid dip. Do you think Twilight Sanctuary and Fiery Teleport synergize? Peace Cleric might also work well. I was thinking of playing an Eladrin, staying in the Spring Season so I could teleport myself or an ally. Shadar-Kai is also appealing, and fits with the twilight theme. If you took Fey Tocuhed as a feat, then it would go well with being an elf. It would add another free teleport. I would probably take Silvery Barbs as the 1st level spell. Telekinetic might also be good for positioning enemies, as well as allowing allies to move without incurring opportunity attacks.
I can't imagine taking 10 levels Artificer and then walking away without getting one more level for Spell Storing Item. I think it's one of the most fun and interesting abilities in the game. It can pack so much party utility combined with the ability to swap spells on a long rest, being able to load a whole party up (more than once, if you have 5 people or less) with things like Disguise or Alter Self, Enlarge/Reduce, Levitate, Spider Climb, Invisibility, Levitate, Darkvision. Come packing 10 free shots of Arcane Lock or Vortex Warp when you know you're going to have to make a hasty retreat after doing something. Drop 10 Alarms if you're going to have to defend a large area. Let the party rogue sneak into position to start a combat with a well placed Web, Grease, or Heat Metal. And all using your own Int modifier.
I think Rogue 3 and Fighter 3 is a notable dip for most builds. For both, you get subclass features, and there are many fighter subclasses like Battlemaster, Echo knight, and Rune Knight that can add either a lot of damage, or a lot of utility to a build. Rogues get their to 2d6 sneak attack as well. This is especially strong for surprise builds taking Assassin levels, which allows them to tack on even more damage.
Shadow Monk absolutely worth staying til 6th for the at-will bonus teleport. Synergizes with Sneak Attack. My spy (on paper) is a Trix 3-> Shadow 6-> back to Trickster. They merge So Well, and the 6 level 'special ops' training is worth it for the right character. I need to work with my DM to see if I can homebrew some streamlining though.
I feel like if you’re going to stay in Rogue until 10th level, you might as well stay 1 more level for Reliable Talent. That’s the feature that puts Rogue head and shoulders above the other skill users. Anyone can roll a 1 on a skill check with expertise, except rogues.
I would say orange for dipping bard. Healing word is optimal and if your party needs healing to get characters up from unconscious and you are a sorcerer or warlock a one level dip gives you inspiration, 2 cantrips, 2 1st level slots and spells known plus the skill as icing on the cake but as opposed to magic initiate you are one level behind on getting big spells.
One option that wasn't mentioned is Blade Singer 6 as a jump point. That`s when you get the best extra attack in the game, and you already have third level spells, and the first ASI. While it will slow spell progression, at that point you could dip into fighter for example to pick up Action Surge or even go for Echo Knight 3, then go back to Blade Singer for the rest. You probably don't want to go Fighter 4 for the ASI because you are only one Wizard level away from fourth level spells, and you already delayed spell progression enough. Though a case could be made to get the Fighter ASI, then go back to Wizard and get another ASI two levels later. Either way A Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge, Manifest Echo, and Unleash Incarnation add a TON to a Blade Singer`s abilities. Enough to carry the Melee aspect of Blade Singers well into late game, instead of it dropping off in mid game like it normally does. With all the spell slot free teleports you get from Manifest Echo, Action Surge, and the ability to not have to put yourself in danger when its a bad match up, while still doing both melee damage and casting spells, its more than worth it in my own personal opinion.
I'm surprised that you didn't make more mention of the mid level Paladin jumps. Besides 6, 7, and 8, each level from 9 up gives you something significant. Depending on what you want from another class, any of those makes a reasonable jump point. For instance, let's say you want more slots and a way to nova beyond divine Smite. Either Whisper Bard 5 or Warlock 5 gives you that, but you'd want to count back 5 levels from your anticipated final level to plan your jump. Going to 12? Better jump at 7. Going to 15? Maybe jump at 10.
I think level 6 Path of Giant Barbarian is when it really opens up and a very good jump point for that case. Its good to go into Fighter or possible Ranger for Thrown Weapon fighting style for extra damage. Also wanna point out that Horizon Walker Ranger is a good dip for those that want to deal extra damage while changing your damage to Force for one weapon attack, it adds a 1d8. It also has unlimited uses but uses your bonus action and can only target something within 30ft. A good choice for classes that doesn't use bonus actions, have one large attack like a Rogue, or for those that don't want to use Hunter's Mark all the time. It can stack with Hunter's Mark but needs set up. I think changing a single attack to Force is highly underrated especially in low levels.
I find it hilarious that bard, sorcerer, warlock wizard can each exit at 17/18 level and go fighter to get better capstone than their capstones. And fighting style can mimic a feat/ASI (19th level caster feature) in power (defense if you have armor prof or manouver for d6 added to initiative).
Honorable mention for barbarians or martials in general jumping into monk specifically before multi attack. Martial arts really softens the delay on that feature IMO.
I think the main omission in this video is 3 level dips to pick up specific subclasses. Most of these are probably orange, since you'd only take them with one or two subclasses, but there were a bunch that stood out as missing. Instead of only dipping 2 levels into barbarian on your fighter, dipping the third level for an additional rage and subclass feature. Various subclasses are decent options here, but ancestral guardian and totem specifically seem solid. Dipping 3 levels of fighter for battlemaster manervers (or for echo knight, or arcane archer if you've got a lot of party shoves for grasping arrow). Dipping 3 levels of assassin rogue on a first round burst build (e.g. bugbear + gloomstalker + action surge). Specifically to get advantage on the first round (but if your DM gives you a surprise round with assassin auto crits, you won't complain ofc). Taking a 3rd level of hexblade to get a CHA based pact weapon (Treantmonk even hyped up a Hexblade 3 Swords Bard 17 build on this channel a while back). Arguably maybe some of these you want to go to level 4 instead of level 3 for the ASI. But level 4 versions of these dips weren't listed in the video either.
Barbarian jump points are level 2, 3 and 4. That's it. There are only very niche reasons to go farther than that for optimized builds. Reckless Attack at 2, Sub Class at 3 and ASI at 4. That is all.
I like to use a 1 level dip into monk for a the unarmored defense as well as the free bonus action attack. Usually with Clerics/Rangers/Druids. Druids especially as it sidesteps the armor problems.
Good stuff. It does leave me with a question though. When you talk about taking 17 levels in a class and finishing in another class, does that really make sense in a campaign? I mean if you wanted to enjoy the features of the class you’re dipping at the end / for “quality of life” during level ascension in a campaign when would you actually suggest those levels be taken? For example with a wizard who takes a couple levels of fighter, would you start fighter 1 and take fighter two after Wizard 9 or when? I think, if you’re not including this stuff in a longer version of this vid, that such answers would make a very useful/ actionable vid to follow this one. It’s often hard to feel confident in decisions like the above question of when to take the fighter levels on a wizard for example, or if you want to add two levels of wizard to say, a fighter… when should each be taken? - all that said, once it comes out, i will totally be sharing this vid with several folks from campaigns I’m in, as it is very useful.
One thing to consider is it probably takes over a year to get to 17 and it is nice to enjoy those 9th level spells for a few levels and not just the culmination of the campaign.
Fo Ranger the GloomStalker gets Greater Invisibility and Guardian of Nature at 13. If you have Sharpshooter and Elven Accuracy FEATs you’re getting the Advantage you need to guarantee a hit and increase the probability of a CRIT
I'd have to disagree with Bard having no good dipping points. I'd say 1 and maybe even 2 levels are at least an orange dip if not green. If no one else in the party has access to bonus action healing then simply taking the single level for access to healing word can be worth it. Healing word being able to bring up downed allies without taking an action (even while safely at a distance) can drastically shift the action economy. For most spellcasters who often can't make good use of their bonus action, Bardic inspiration can go a long way in and out of combat and remains useful from level 1 to 20 do to 5e's bounded accuracy. The dip also provides a good bit of out of combat utility as icing on the cake. A Bard dip might not make Your personal damage numbers go up, but similar to Bless it can do far more to the party's success than it may initially seem, when you look at the big picture. Not always the correct choice but it's always something to think of based on your party's composition.
Hi Treant! I'm a big fan and want to make a pitch that might improve your rating of a dip in to bard from barbarian. I know mine is not optimal build and circumstance forced me in to bard from what was planned as a barbarian. Long story short I'm running a grappling/restrain half-orc barbarian that at level three went to totem (bear), due to background (entertainer) and human mom (bard) there was a story hook which ended up in one level of bard. RIght now at level 4 he's subduing a lot of opponents and at one point restrained a dire wolf. I found that because of barbarian subclass I was able to control the dire wolf after rage, using ritual speak with animals and cast animal friendship after bard. The DM is allowing some taming rules (homebrew) and at the moment I'm well on my way to being something like a Bardbarian with beast friends... I'm going to keep on barbarian to 5 for second attack then thinking bard to level 3 for College of swords bard (flourishes, great weapon fighting style, bonus proficiencies). Things to improve the grapples come from bard like cutting words and other advantage causing things at low level bard. I'm keeping myself to utility spells, longstrider before rage in combat to run up and grab some unsuspecting victim, healing word for recovery and ritual spells from both classes. No it's not optimizer but he's turning in to a really fun character/build, he carries around orcish war drums and I play some fun sounds to my party on occasion over a soundboard when I'm charging in to battle - I 've named him something like an Orcish War Drummer. Cheers man!
I think 2 lv dip fighter should deserve the blue rank because everyone can benefice from it and it is the easiest to obtain. you also mentioned it a couple of times in the video for classes that don't have a good capstone
I love Mage Armor on Moon Druids. Beasts have terrible armor classes and Mage Armor is pretty much the only way to bump up your AC when you’re wild shaped.
Stars Druid 2 can be a multi-class option just because dragon form’s ability to cause you to automatically get 10 on concentration checks can bypass the need for a concentration defense feat, though it usually worse than just taking those feats.
Sometimes I'll take a one level dip in rogue to get expertise. I recognize that Skill Expert is a viable alternative but I think there's an argument to be made for taking a one level dip to get expertise in two different skills over taking a half feat to get expertise in one.
hi treantmonk! love the channel, thanks for everything you do. would you say Samurai's 7th level feature Elegant Courtier (+Wis mod to Pers checks; prof in Wis saves) is one of the banger lvl 7 features, that make it a good idea to wait until lvl 8 as a jump point? thanks!
Advantage every turn! I assume first round is Rage and Reckless, second round is Fighting Spirit and action surge, and every round after that is just Reckless? Adding in your second Action Surge for more damage and Fighting Spirit when you start getting low? That does sound pretty awesome.
@@wanderingshade8383 it was then if I do die I have the strength before death feat that give me an extra turn instantly before I die to either do one last attack or to heal
One of the most enjoyable multiclasses I've ever played was a paladin main class with 7 levels in oath if the ancients and then 6 levels into lore bard. They were super tanky with defense fighting style plate armor a +1 shield and access to the shield spell and would just mow people down with spirit guardians and dodge.
"Artificer Artillerist isn't offering a whole lot after this" I'm offended. Arcane firearm, plus all the other great areas of the class like flash of genius (Lvl7) and spell storing item (Lvl11). But it's hard to argue for going a pure class on a multiclassing video!
I was scared of playing a wizard up until now because they seem squishy and I'm a beginner. If I want to give myself some room for mistakes I should make him tankier. If I understand correctly it would be best to start with 1 Level in Cleric, choose a subclass with heavy armor and shield proficiency, get the higher base hit points and then level Wizard from Level 2 onward picking up spells like shield, mage armor etc. Is that assumption correct?
Are we assuming good by level 20? Something like 11 levels of echo knight, 3 levels assasin, 3 levels gloom stalker, and maybe 3 levels paladin or warlock will give you a surprise round nuke.
@The Mystery Gamer Of course. But for the sake of having fun with the question, perhaps assume the character will be created for a one-shot at exactly its perfect level. 🙂
I remember Brennan Lee Mulligan played a nova build with 5 classes for a oneshot. I think it was Gloomstalker 5/Echo Knight 3/Assassin 3/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 7.
5 lvl ranger gloomstalker, 3 lvl battlemaster, 1 level twilight cleric, 3 level assassin then takr whichever class gives you the next ASI. you want to be a bugbear or v.human/ custom lineage for xbow, 5 levels in ranger, then with battlemaster you have 5d8 superiority die with the fighting style, which you can use on trip attack, ambush or precision strike, 1 levels twilight cleric gives advantage on initiative, guideance and healing word, assassin for the extra damage. You have advantage +6-7 + 1d8 on initiative, pass without a trace and expertise for stealth and +1d8 if needed from maneuver, this may be the ultimate nova. You can also go 4 lvls in battlemaster for the feat (recommended) and 2 levels in twilight for the channel divinity. Scales pooly into T4, does poorly if not high on initiative, relies on stealth and surprise a lot.
question: first of all i love this channel, and thank you for this video so so much. so i might be confused. some of the jump points shown seem to be the last level you should take *before* jumping, while others seem to be the level *at which* you should jump (giving up features of that level). for instance it says (i think) that barbarians and rogues have jp's of 8 and 10 respectively, having earned good features at 7 and 9. but with caster classes, it list level 5 as a jump point because *at that level* you get 3rd level spells. is this a simple slip or am i misunderstanding? no worries tho, I'm just coming up on my first MC ever so I wanna be sure. cheers 😀
All of the levels mentioned are the level you want to achieve in the class before you switch. The reason he listed 8 and 10 and not 7 or 9 is because level 8 and 10 provided ability score improvements, so you probably want those levels - especially as a martial character. The point of highlighting the good features at 7 or 9 was just to give reason why you might go to a farther jp and not at level 5 or something.
I'd like to nominate 6 levels of wizard (specifically bladesinger) for orange rating. Their special Extra Attack opens room for some gish-y shenanigans for certain builds.
People get to overly invested that if you multiclass you will not be as strong . Correction you wont have higher level spells but the combos you get are better . My favorite was a lw 6 eloquence bad/ lw 7-14 fire genie warlock. Start with lw1 bard - then lw7 warlock - then lw6 bard - then rest warlock --(Face/Infiltration)-- Have actor feat + mask of many faces + misty visions to be high class illusionist and manipulator + eloquence bard + expertise in Deception and perception ( Rank S) --(Scouting )-- Pact of the chain imp to scout situation + high perception from expertise (Rank A) ---(Utility)---Even you your skills are not in History or arcane or religion you do have useful skills (Comp Languages, Detect magic, Identify) And jack of all trades for a little boost (Rank B) --(Dps)-- Fireball for low lw crowds(Slots from bard and Warlock) + Concentrated damage from Eldritch blast and summon aberration while flying (Rank A) --(Control)-- Class has good combo ,Unsettling Words + Silvery barbs + Hold person/ Raulothim's Psychic Lance to almost guarantee a success on a boss. (Rank A) --(Survivability)-- You are not a tank but you do have Armor of agahtis + fly from genie + Misty step to avoid damage (Rank B) --(Support)-- Class does not have good support but you can give healing potions if if party has goodbeRry to imp for easy heals for dropped players and bardic inspiration (Rank C)
that's a good question. Monk, druid and ranger levels don't really provide a ton of value from their early levels until 3+ levels imo. Int and Cha classes are likely too MAD. Maybe some thematic fighter or rogue build? Shadow monk 3 could be ok, casting pass without trace w/o using slots, or the bonus action dodge/dash. Before the campaign stalled out, I was going to multiclass the next 2 levels as barbarian on level 6 my protector aasimar death cleric [2 CD uses/sr at level 6] to get more durability and better accuracy for CD-Touch of death attacks. That character could hit really hard but its hp pool was pretty limited.
I'm curious why you skip subclass fishing on some of these. Assassin rogue, arcane trickster, weapon master fighter, all the warlock pact boons. I think 3 is a great dip for flavor and versatility on a lot of these classes. Still, thanks for the breakdown, I'll make a chart for myself.
Could maybe use some tips here I’m looking to go with a rogue with a spellcaster dip for my next PC. The concept is an investigator who would rather be decent at a lot of things and lucky than very good at a few things My main goal is roll manipulation and consistent use of all actions/reactions. As of now I’m leaning Arcane trickster + diviner dip. Then at least lucky feat, I know this could be a bit of a feat/ASI heavy build (things to add profs, lucky and warcaster feel like pretty high priority) so idk if I want to go variant human or a halfling for that Reroll of nat 1s. Would love some feedback
@@CaitSith87 for straight combat yeah I definitely get that with war and blade singer but thematically I want to go away from those. Chronurgy is a good thought I still hadn’t looked closely at that subclass. I’m hoping combat wise to have this character be a hit and run (really only worried about the sneak attack and making sure it hits), mess with some rolls and a little bit of battlefield control depending on the spells I take. And use as many of my action options in a round as possible.
I’ve had my issue with some of your videos but this was a slam dunk, I wish I’d found this earlier for my less confident players, and even myself when I was first getting into the game. I would like to point out that barbarian 3 is a good dip for several builds, berserker extra attack, bear totem resistance, zealot smite, etc. Dipping 2 levels in Druid (from cleric generally) also pays off if you are making a healer build (and your dm is ok with bending the rules on armor), shepherd and stars add a lot of healing potential. I know as an optimizer however you wouldn’t make a healer because they’re dead weight without homebrew and there isn’t any point in a 2 level dip otherwise. Honestly any level of fighter is good to multiclass, it’s one of the easiest to mix and match with. I would argue that any 1 level dip into warlock is fine, I would at least put it green. But tbh 2 levels is better.
action surge is amazing on so many characters! Almost always a consideration for me. Not as good on monks compared with other classes though, but the short rest synergy is great.
I feel Level 5 Rouge is a bit under valued here, as Uncanny Dodge is an extremely powerful stay alive feature. (This is inspired by your somewhat recent Bugbear video) Though maybe this is a bit niche, a build I've been working towards on one of my current characters is 1 Level Warlock, 5 Levels Rouge Assassin, 3 Levels Ranger Gloomstalker, 11 Levels Fighter Archery, Close Quarters Shooter, Champion. My idea here is that maybe Lv 5 Rouge might work well for other multiclass combos as well, as it is a strong build for early game, and uncanny dodge could be very strong for any low hp classes or tanks / melee characters. In a perfect world I would love to somehow get one more Level to have either Level 2 Warlock, Level 11 Fighter, and Level 5 Rouge but you have to pick one or the other for this build. Essentially pick one thing to sacrifice, 3 attacks per attack action, Uncanny Dodge, or Eldritch invocations. The main point of this build is to focus on hand crossbows, making use of the Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert feats, take the alert feat and maybe play a bugbear for an ambush play style advantage. An extra attack is always handy, Uncanny dodge might save your character's life and allow them to tank if needed, Warlock Lv 2 would add versatility ie better eldritch blast (but in this case I felt that it wasn't necessary, and the main point of taking 1 Level in warlock instead is that you gain the some class features ie Patron benefits
The multiclass game changes drastically if your DM allows you to "retrain". Since the early days, I've always allowed players to change their earlier decisions, primarily so they don't fell stuck with one or more choices made in the early game they regret later on. This is how I run my games and how my DM runs the game I play in. As long as the character is "legal" you can drop levels and add them to other classes, trade out feats or features. Tasha's added some options that are minor versions of this. Allowing your players to retrain or rebuild their characters makes it so they can choose the optimum features for any given level, as if you were running a one shot. I prefer it when it isn't too drastic and has story continuity, but even then, I'd rather the player be happy with their character than stuck with one they don't want to play. I think recently character rebuilding has been popularized by Baldur's Gate 3, due to the respec option you get from Withers. I have always found in any case, moving out of a class one level before acquiring a feat is unwise, as you mentioned, due to the power of feats.
Why do you say monks are ok on short adventuring days? They get ki back on a short rest (assuming they can meditate for half of it), so don't they do better the longer the adventuring day is?
I don't see how anyone would jump away at Wizard 17 when Wizard 18's feature is so damn attractive O__O. Having an unlimited level 1 and an unlimited level 2 is just too good to pass... (I'm looking at you, Shield and Misty Step)
I'm really surprised you didn't mention the 3 level rogue dip into something like Assassin or 3rd level for Warlock when you get something like "Improved Pact Weapon" or "Pact of the Chain".
Disagreement on Ranger dipping: A 2-level dip is not a terrible choice for any other martial class. Minor utility magic, and a second fighting style. You can't take the same fighting style multiple times, but multiple fighting styles stack. Here's where you pick up Defense or Archery or Two Weapon Fighting if your paladin or fighter features were already spoken for.
I'm currently playing a Lycan Blood Hunter 6/Fighter 2/Peace Cleric 1 that will run to 20th level. This is a rare case where a triple class is really powerful. Granted the Blood Hunter is homebrew.
Level 6 is a good (well, orange) jumping off point specifically for Genie Patrons, particularly Dao- for one more level you get resistance to a damage type and concentration free flying. Genie Patron could also jump at 14 since they get a limited wish every 1d4 days, but in 3 more levels you get real wish, so it'd better be a killer last 6 levels to give that up.
Fighter 12 with 3 ranger for gloomstalker, can confirm this fixed many issues balance wise for my level of play with a martial. Probably going 4 ranger and 4 twilight cleric to utilize spell buffs, feats, and a synergy between my cloak of the bat and twilight divine option. Using two really strong subclasses fixed how boring my fighter was 😵
I'm a little disappointed that you missed the most powerful jumping point of any class at any level. It's pretty obvious too, it's 100% Monk Level 0. I really hoping to see that when you went to Monk. :(
Bard 1 isn't much of a dip, but it is the easiest way to grab Faerie Fire on a Sorcerer (plus Healing Word on a non-divine soul) if that's something you want. The light armor proficiency saves a spell known, too, since you can probably forgo mage armor
What a fantastic resource for optimizers. This summarizes literally years worth of multiclassing experience for someone who plays DnD once a week, especially if they're doing campaigns rather than oneshots. I love calling out specific levels and stressing the importance of the order you're taking classes. Most guides just give a general grade to the multiclass potential of classes and sometimes calls out specific subclasses, assuming that the reader is following plot. Hopefully this will end the all too common tragedy of multiclassers simply alternating levels in their two classes.
As someone who plays almost exclusively between levels 3 and 10, I like dipping rogue 3 on my fighters. 2d6 sneak attack, expertise, and cunning action are fun additions, both mechanically and thematically, to pretty much any dex build.
I play wizards probably the majority of the time, and full spellcasters almost exclusively. And yet, the most fun I have *ever* had with 5e was playing a Swashbuckler with five levels of Battle Master to high levels.
Battlemaster 6 into rogue X is one of my favorite builds and it is always good. Such a fun multiclass
@@certifiedfunnyguy Sneak Attack and Trip Attack are like peanut butter and chocolate. Using a whip can let you forego disengaging to always dash or hide with your Cunning Action. It somehow never got old. Lol
@@dylandugan76 riposte as well is phenomenal at giving you sneak attack with your reaction
@@certifiedfunnyguy I did that with my Halfling, Clyde McFinnigan. Battlemaster 6 into Swashbuckler 3; Hand crossbow (w/ Expert and Sharpshooter feats) w/ Rapier. My little gypsy John Wick. An absolute pleasure to play.
I love this breakdown by class! Thanks for all that you do.
You are so welcome!
I have such a hard time passing on ASI's at the 4's (or 6/10 in some cases). If I'm going to dip 3, I generally prefer to just dip 4 so I can get the feat/asi. I know this isn't as optimal in some cases, but... I am a sucker for the additional customization.
Warlock does me so dirty on this. I go for that 2 level dip, see the bump in pact slots(up to 2nd level) and pact boon at 3, then gotta stay for the ASI.
Four levels in you look around and realize the other full casters are two spell levels ahead of you. Pain!
I’m currently adding all the builds that have been presented on this channel into D&D Beyond for use in a gladiatorial arena in my current campaign. The players are going to be facing off against themed teams in progressively higher level matches. Not sure what the full team for the final round is, but it’s definitely gonna include the Do-It-All Mage. I’m working on some of my own multi class builds to add in, so this is perfect timing!
What you'll realize is that controlling multiple player character is hard and time consuming. The teams are also going to be much stronger then regular monsters.
Kobold eloquence bard, with 5 kobold phalanx fighters, 1 winged kobold mage with staff of magi and ever smoking bottle.
Is my youtube glitched? This comment is from 3 weeks ago but the video was uploaded 5 days ago?
@@PoptartRebellion people backing him on patreon can see these videos before they get release to the public.
@@PoptartRebellion
Sorry, I time traveled. I’ll try to fix it.
Barbarian 3-level dip should also be considered, because some Primal Paths offer fantastic tanking options to add to martial.
He is talking at you, Bear totem barbarians.
Ancestral Guardian^
I'd say dipping warlock 3 could be an orange. You can get a strong familiar or a magic weapon that can change form and be summoned back if lost, or lots of ritual spells, and 2nd level spellcasting.
For every new character I come back to this video! Thanks for ever posting it.
Great video! The one-level warlock dip should be green or blue, though. Along with Hexblade and Undead warlock being good dips, the Genie warlock is also a good dip. You effectively get a demiplane to store things in, and you get bottled respite, which is a decent amount of damage every turn that scales with your proficiency bonus.
This is highly specific, but for Conquest Paladin I usually recommend 9 levels over 8 to get the fear spell.
I love how Chris doesn't talk about bad options. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.
Except Tenser's Transformation
Affirmative ;)
@@EmanueleCappello And Monks
It also leaves open the possibility of sleeper builds where a previously bad option might be found to shine, so he doesn't have to backtrack on rating it poorly
Except Monks. :)
You presented wizard 17 as green, but I would make the argument for wizard 18. Being able to cast shield or silvery barbs every turn is an enormous bump for many wizards, especially those that don't have many uses for their reaction. I'd probably give it a purple rating. At the very least, pick it up after your two levels in fighter.
Depends on the dip but wizard 18 is not as impactful as you think. At that level you can easily spend all your lvl 1 and lvl 2 spells on shield/barbs without problem but the main problem is if anything attacks you, they probably will autohit (except for nat 1) with something like a +18 to hit. Also you really need to save your reaction for counterspell at that level.
@@coldfusion230 I mean, truth is that, while you always keep counterspell on hand, it's typically very easy to tell which encounters you're safe to use a different reaction. Don't need counterspell if you're smart about fighting many types of high CR monsters. ...Which is why Dragons should always use the optional draconic spellcasting rules. Never shoulda been optional when Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer is in the PHB. ...Edit: Also, a few monsters that do have magic can't be counterspelled anyway.
I suppose Jump points and dipping is mostly really the only terms you need to know in Optimization. Like leveling multiple classes in a more even manner is very situationally useful or just done for flavour. Or at higher level, when you've already gotten your build together and every level is just a different plus depending on what you want
dude! I should have wrote this a while back, but great guide, one of the best. I keep coming back to it. thanks!
Fathomless makes a great single-level dip for Swashbuckler Rogues since they frequently don’t need to use Cunning Action to Disengage. Pop the Slasher feat on and you can kite like a boss.
Edit to add: It can be a good dip for Bard and Sorcerer, too. With the Swashbuckler, it can be fun to run Custom Lineage and grab Slasher at level 1 for an 18 starting Dexterity. At level 4, grab an ASI or Fey Touched to bump Charisma and grab some decent spells. Then grab Fathomless at level 5 for the tentacle and Booming Blade…and profit. If there are invocations you want to grab, coming back for a second level is always a nice option, but not super necessary (Agonizing Blast would give you a good ranged option, and Armor of Shadows and Devil’s Sight are always useful).
This is what I'm thinking about doing for my Aberrant Mind sorcerer. It's flavorful, and lets me have a lot of movement control. I'll have Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy, and either Grasp of Hadar or Agonizing Blast (got Eldritch Adept at level 1 as a free feat, so my cute little eldritch horror could make herself look normal) with the tentacles as well as some spells to push people into from myself and the other characters :3
I thought DnD was for driving your DM crazy with your level 8 character with an AC of 27 and a plus 5 to all save, while the rest rest of the party has an AC of 16. So the DM get a kraken to throw a BOAT at your character. And every one at the table bust up laughing when my character not only survived, but then ask if you got another boat. At which point my guy then ran away.
lol, that's fantastic
What? 27? Link to build please 😂
@@DrChacatumbi Paladin 8. Cha 15+2racial+1 Fey Touched (Shield spell)@lvl 4+2 @ lvl 8 = 20 (+5 to all saves with Aura of Protection). Plate Armor +1 (19) + any Shield (2) + Defense Fighting Style (1) + Shield Spell (5) = 27 AC.
Obviously I'm just guessing as there's not enough information to be certain.
@@a.j.1614 I thought shield spell didn't stack w a physical shield ac
@@DrChacatumbi it does,although some dm require warcaster nevertheless its still a prominent go to
34:45 A 1 level Wizard dip worth mentioning. 1st level ritual casting is huge if your party doesn’t have a wizard. Most of the things you mentioned come at 1st level.
Heads up for Rangers! If you are in a seafaring campaign Ranger 6 is wild. Climb speed and swim speed plus 5 feet of extra movement. This basically turns shipboard combat into a 3d affair while your zooming around hitting targets from atop the rigging. Then the swin speed gets rid of disadvantage whenever you are attacking in underwater combat. Plus if your multiclassing with a full caster class you get to that extra spell slot progression at level 6.
6th level blade singer dip definitely deserved a mention, the flexibility and power of that version of multi attack is super unique.
At that point you may as well just play wizard. You're already the most powerful class in the game, what are you going to multi into?
@@larstollefsen1236 eldritch knight comes to mind although quite a few fighter subclasses could make this work. Rogue would be another pretty solid choice, this version of multi attack can add so much to the rogue's arsenal. If you can work the stats out hex blade would be a bunch of fun eldritch blasting and weapon attacking every turn (the Hex Slinging Singer as I call it)
Yeah I don't think that'll turn out that good
@@ryanscanlon2151 All of those options are terrible. 😔
That's only going to dramatically weaken your spellcasting, Eldritch Blast is especially bad because I seriously doubt you have the Charisma to use it.
@@larstollefsen1236 it's a 6 level dip into wizard not a one level hex blade dip, you would focus charisma not int and mostly take utility spells from wizard. The combination of warlock and normal spell slots from a mix like this adds a lot of flexibility the with casting spells the warlock doesn't normally get. Plus imagine popping a 5th lvl spirit shroud then doing crossbow expert/sharp shooter and eldritch blast together. At 20 you would aside be making 6 attacks every turn except for the set up round. Base damage 50+ 12d8+4d10+2d6 if you while combo hits
As a multiclassing enthusiast, i agree with most of the points here. only thing i disagree on is tagging a fighter 2 dip as green when you've already said it works great in any build in the game. imo that's a sign that that's a blue dip. action economy is king in 5e. gaining a fighting style and armor/con save profs are great value as well.
Not even a mention of 1st level rogue dip? It gets you: 1 extra skill proficiency, 2 expertise, proficiency in thieves tools, and 1d6 sneak attack. That's almost like the Skill Expert feat, just slightly different.
26:15 He says exactly that
I’m surprised that Warlock 6 didn’t get an orange ranking for Genie subclass. Non-concentration flight has to be worth 1 level right??
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Elemental Gift is a 6th-level Genie feature. So you would need to invest 6 levels of Warlock to access it. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
For Artificer, 7 and 10 are also great jump points due to Flash of Genius at 7, which let's you add your Int modifier to yours or someone else's ability check or saving throw Int times per day. Moreover, jumping at 7 as opposed to 10 means you can fit more wizard into your build, even getting access to 9th-level spell slots for upcasting.
One more very specific use I've seen for a paladin dip: Barbarians. Go barb 5, pick up smite and a fighting style, finish out in Bard. It was an interesting take, though 13 CHA is hard for a barbarian to justify.
The thing to remember when you're talking about capstone class abilities is that you MIGHT get to play a level 20 character for anywhere from as much as one ADVENTURE to as little as ONE SESSION. Frankly, capstone abilities are never even a consideration when I'm planning a character's advancement. I mean, why in the world would I (for example) miss out on having Action Surge or the Shield, Magic Missile and Find Familiar spells (and all the first-level rituals, and a wizard's subclass abilities) for 16 or 17 levels just so I can have unlimited Wild Shape for one?
I’m a little surprised Warlock 3 didn’t come up as a jumping of point as Pact Boons can be pretty spectacular.
Although the ASI progression does, I admit, hurt quite a bit.
If I'm going to go 3 in something, I may as well go 4 just for an ASI or feat, unless the way the levels add up is less of an issue long term.
I think a 2 or 3 level dip into sorcerer is particularly useful for warlocks. 1 level gets you shield, and divine souls gets you cure wounds if you take gift of the ever-living ones. 2 levels with metamagic adept gets you a good sorcery point conversion rate for your pact slots, and a third level gets you more metamagic options and some 2nd level slots for utility spells.
Six levels of barbarian should probably be blue. Taking one more level for another rage and subclass feature is certainly worth it if you choose a good subclass like the Zealot. One reroll of any failed save once per rage is fantastic. You get four rerolls per day, which makes it about as good as the Lucky feat.
eagle totem flight is at level 14, totem 6 just gets you out of combat stuff basically.
@@elliotbryant3459 oh I see, then I'll change my original statement
My Battle Master Fighter is going to be going into Paladin the rest of the way after they get improved multiattack. While their smites aren't going to be super crazy that high level, Oath of Vengeance provides goodies like Hunter's Mark and Vow of Enmity.
You’re the most optimal optimizer! Can’t wait for sixth edition so we can all start over
Colby at D4 dips 3 levels of Armorer for the taunt all the time. Interesting that You didn’t mention that one at all.
It's not a break out feature. It's a bandaid on otherwise bad tankling options in 5e.
I guess it is the same note with Ancestral Guardian.
Armorer and Battlesmith both offer some form of Int-based attack rolls, too. With the round-up on caster levels, I can see that being OK, if that’s a useful feature for you. Better than Wizard spell progression or the linear scaling of Rogue sneak attack? Well, that’s a tougher decision.
I think warlock 3 is a good dip/jump point as well.
from level 1 to level 2, your spell slots double, but from level 2 to level 3, your spell slots also double (in power). They also double in the number of sorcery points they are worth if you are a sorlock. But of course you also get your pact boon, and pact of the chain with an invisible imp familiar is very powerful. If find familiar is the best 1st level spell in the game, then an invisible flying familiar with 10hp that can manipulate objects, is intelligent, can speak, shapechange, and see through magical darkness is even better. If nobody in the party has scouting handled, then this is an option that is basically unrivaled other than straight up casting Arcane Eye.
I'm surprised you didn't even give a rank score to the 3 lvl rogue dip, surely at least some of the rogue subclass features are worth while to pick up for certain builds.
Scout is good for Skirmisher and expertise in Nature and Survival and Thief is good if you combine Fast Hands with the Healer feat.
And then there is the Assassin in all Min Maxing dpr / nova build hehehe
@@bouidge The Assassin looks good on paper but in practice it can be hard to get the surprised condition against enemy monsters on a consistent basis.
@@studentofsmith mastermind is a great dip for support characters, especially Order Domain Cleric's to further boost Voice of Authority. And arcane trickster is a sneaky way for classes with low Int to snag a few key wizard spells
For Druids:
Wildfire Druid and Stars Druid have pretty good jump points at 2 as well. Stars Druid gives you a bonus for Concentration checks (and PB number of Guiding Bolts) and the Wildfire Druid gives you a companion that may not scale in durability with multiclassing, but can teleport every turn and can easily avoid taking damage.
I love Wildfire Druid!
How would you multiclass with two levels in that subclass?
It seems like Twilight Cleric would be good.
@@alanschaub147 D&D Deep Dive recently did a video on the Wildfire Druid Cleaver. It was a pretty fun Wildfire Druid/Ranger multiclass, but it was mostly Druid levels.
I think if I was going to do just two levels, I'd probably go mostly Ranger and use it for its bonus action attack and occasional teleport option. Its main power is its incredible utility, not so much in its damage output.
@@Aaron-pj3ky I saw that video. What race would you use for your build?
@@alanschaub147 I went Kobold for the cantrip Green-Flame Blade. But I think you could really go with anything if you're only doing it as a two level dip. If you want to get creative, maybe some options like:
- Hobgoblins, who get bonuses from the number of allies near them for Saving Face/Fortune of the Many
- Lizardfolk or Dhampir, because there's nothing stopping you from using Hungry Jaws/Vampiric Bite on your own summon to get some temporary hit points, especially since you get back both Wildshape uses on a short rest. Plus the visual of your character eating your fire spirit when you're done with it is kind of amazing.
@@Aaron-pj3ky Kobold has such great thematic flavor!
I was thinking of playing a Twilight Cleric with a two level Wildfire Druid dip. Do you think Twilight Sanctuary and Fiery Teleport synergize?
Peace Cleric might also work well.
I was thinking of playing an Eladrin, staying in the Spring Season so I could teleport myself or an ally.
Shadar-Kai is also appealing, and fits with the twilight theme.
If you took Fey Tocuhed as a feat, then it would go well with being an elf. It would add another free teleport. I would probably take Silvery Barbs as the 1st level spell.
Telekinetic might also be good for positioning enemies, as well as allowing allies to move without incurring opportunity attacks.
I can't imagine taking 10 levels Artificer and then walking away without getting one more level for Spell Storing Item. I think it's one of the most fun and interesting abilities in the game. It can pack so much party utility combined with the ability to swap spells on a long rest, being able to load a whole party up (more than once, if you have 5 people or less) with things like Disguise or Alter Self, Enlarge/Reduce, Levitate, Spider Climb, Invisibility, Levitate, Darkvision. Come packing 10 free shots of Arcane Lock or Vortex Warp when you know you're going to have to make a hasty retreat after doing something. Drop 10 Alarms if you're going to have to defend a large area. Let the party rogue sneak into position to start a combat with a well placed Web, Grease, or Heat Metal. And all using your own Int modifier.
I think Rogue 3 and Fighter 3 is a notable dip for most builds. For both, you get subclass features, and there are many fighter subclasses like Battlemaster, Echo knight, and Rune Knight that can add either a lot of damage, or a lot of utility to a build. Rogues get their to 2d6 sneak attack as well. This is especially strong for surprise builds taking Assassin levels, which allows them to tack on even more damage.
3:42 Armorer for gauntlets has lots of good tank/draw agro builds you can do.
Shadow Monk absolutely worth staying til 6th for the at-will bonus teleport. Synergizes with Sneak Attack.
My spy (on paper) is a Trix 3-> Shadow 6-> back to Trickster. They merge So Well, and the 6 level 'special ops' training is worth it for the right character. I need to work with my DM to see if I can homebrew some streamlining though.
I feel like if you’re going to stay in Rogue until 10th level, you might as well stay 1 more level for Reliable Talent. That’s the feature that puts Rogue head and shoulders above the other skill users. Anyone can roll a 1 on a skill check with expertise, except rogues.
action surge dip at green was surprising for sure.
I would say orange for dipping bard. Healing word is optimal and if your party needs healing to get characters up from unconscious and you are a sorcerer or warlock a one level dip gives you inspiration, 2 cantrips, 2 1st level slots and spells known plus the skill as icing on the cake but as opposed to magic initiate you are one level behind on getting big spells.
Well said
One option that wasn't mentioned is Blade Singer 6 as a jump point. That`s when you get the best extra attack in the game, and you already have third level spells, and the first ASI. While it will slow spell progression, at that point you could dip into fighter for example to pick up Action Surge or even go for Echo Knight 3, then go back to Blade Singer for the rest. You probably don't want to go Fighter 4 for the ASI because you are only one Wizard level away from fourth level spells, and you already delayed spell progression enough. Though a case could be made to get the Fighter ASI, then go back to Wizard and get another ASI two levels later. Either way A Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge, Manifest Echo, and Unleash Incarnation add a TON to a Blade Singer`s abilities. Enough to carry the Melee aspect of Blade Singers well into late game, instead of it dropping off in mid game like it normally does. With all the spell slot free teleports you get from Manifest Echo, Action Surge, and the ability to not have to put yourself in danger when its a bad match up, while still doing both melee damage and casting spells, its more than worth it in my own personal opinion.
I'm surprised that you didn't make more mention of the mid level Paladin jumps. Besides 6, 7, and 8, each level from 9 up gives you something significant. Depending on what you want from another class, any of those makes a reasonable jump point.
For instance, let's say you want more slots and a way to nova beyond divine Smite. Either Whisper Bard 5 or Warlock 5 gives you that, but you'd want to count back 5 levels from your anticipated final level to plan your jump. Going to 12? Better jump at 7. Going to 15? Maybe jump at 10.
I think level 6 Path of Giant Barbarian is when it really opens up and a very good jump point for that case. Its good to go into Fighter or possible Ranger for Thrown Weapon fighting style for extra damage. Also wanna point out that Horizon Walker Ranger is a good dip for those that want to deal extra damage while changing your damage to Force for one weapon attack, it adds a 1d8. It also has unlimited uses but uses your bonus action and can only target something within 30ft. A good choice for classes that doesn't use bonus actions, have one large attack like a Rogue, or for those that don't want to use Hunter's Mark all the time. It can stack with Hunter's Mark but needs set up. I think changing a single attack to Force is highly underrated especially in low levels.
I find it hilarious that bard, sorcerer, warlock wizard can each exit at 17/18 level and go fighter to get better capstone than their capstones. And fighting style can mimic a feat/ASI (19th level caster feature) in power (defense if you have armor prof or manouver for d6 added to initiative).
I would say barbarian 14 is also good for the totem barbarian. They get some pretty good options.
Thanks Chris
Honorable mention for barbarians or martials in general jumping into monk specifically before multi attack. Martial arts really softens the delay on that feature IMO.
I think the main omission in this video is 3 level dips to pick up specific subclasses. Most of these are probably orange, since you'd only take them with one or two subclasses, but there were a bunch that stood out as missing.
Instead of only dipping 2 levels into barbarian on your fighter, dipping the third level for an additional rage and subclass feature. Various subclasses are decent options here, but ancestral guardian and totem specifically seem solid.
Dipping 3 levels of fighter for battlemaster manervers (or for echo knight, or arcane archer if you've got a lot of party shoves for grasping arrow).
Dipping 3 levels of assassin rogue on a first round burst build (e.g. bugbear + gloomstalker + action surge). Specifically to get advantage on the first round (but if your DM gives you a surprise round with assassin auto crits, you won't complain ofc).
Taking a 3rd level of hexblade to get a CHA based pact weapon (Treantmonk even hyped up a Hexblade 3 Swords Bard 17 build on this channel a while back).
Arguably maybe some of these you want to go to level 4 instead of level 3 for the ASI. But level 4 versions of these dips weren't listed in the video either.
Barbarian jump points are level 2, 3 and 4. That's it. There are only very niche reasons to go farther than that for optimized builds. Reckless Attack at 2, Sub Class at 3 and ASI at 4. That is all.
I like to use a 1 level dip into monk for a the unarmored defense as well as the free bonus action attack. Usually with Clerics/Rangers/Druids. Druids especially as it sidesteps the armor problems.
Good stuff. It does leave me with a question though. When you talk about taking 17 levels in a class and finishing in another class, does that really make sense in a campaign? I mean if you wanted to enjoy the features of the class you’re dipping at the end / for “quality of life” during level ascension in a campaign when would you actually suggest those levels be taken? For example with a wizard who takes a couple levels of fighter, would you start fighter 1 and take fighter two after Wizard 9 or when? I think, if you’re not including this stuff in a longer version of this vid, that such answers would make a very useful/ actionable vid to follow this one. It’s often hard to feel confident in decisions like the above question of when to take the fighter levels on a wizard for example, or if you want to add two levels of wizard to say, a fighter… when should each be taken?
- all that said, once it comes out, i will totally be sharing this vid with several folks from campaigns I’m in, as it is very useful.
One thing to consider is it probably takes over a year to get to 17 and it is nice to enjoy those 9th level spells for a few levels and not just the culmination of the campaign.
Fo Ranger the GloomStalker gets Greater Invisibility and Guardian of Nature at 13. If you have Sharpshooter and Elven Accuracy FEATs you’re getting the Advantage you need to guarantee a hit and increase the probability of a CRIT
I'd have to disagree with Bard having no good dipping points. I'd say 1 and maybe even 2 levels are at least an orange dip if not green. If no one else in the party has access to bonus action healing then simply taking the single level for access to healing word can be worth it.
Healing word being able to bring up downed allies without taking an action (even while safely at a distance) can drastically shift the action economy. For most spellcasters who often can't make good use of their bonus action, Bardic inspiration can go a long way in and out of combat and remains useful from level 1 to 20 do to 5e's bounded accuracy. The dip also provides a good bit of out of combat utility as icing on the cake.
A Bard dip might not make Your personal damage numbers go up, but similar to Bless it can do far more to the party's success than it may initially seem, when you look at the big picture. Not always the correct choice but it's always something to think of based on your party's composition.
Hi Treant! I'm a big fan and want to make a pitch that might improve your rating of a dip in to bard from barbarian. I know mine is not optimal build and circumstance forced me in to bard from what was planned as a barbarian. Long story short I'm running a grappling/restrain half-orc barbarian that at level three went to totem (bear), due to background (entertainer) and human mom (bard) there was a story hook which ended up in one level of bard. RIght now at level 4 he's subduing a lot of opponents and at one point restrained a dire wolf. I found that because of barbarian subclass I was able to control the dire wolf after rage, using ritual speak with animals and cast animal friendship after bard. The DM is allowing some taming rules (homebrew) and at the moment I'm well on my way to being something like a Bardbarian with beast friends... I'm going to keep on barbarian to 5 for second attack then thinking bard to level 3 for College of swords bard (flourishes, great weapon fighting style, bonus proficiencies). Things to improve the grapples come from bard like cutting words and other advantage causing things at low level bard. I'm keeping myself to utility spells, longstrider before rage in combat to run up and grab some unsuspecting victim, healing word for recovery and ritual spells from both classes. No it's not optimizer but he's turning in to a really fun character/build, he carries around orcish war drums and I play some fun sounds to my party on occasion over a soundboard when I'm charging in to battle - I 've named him something like an Orcish War Drummer. Cheers man!
No talk about Barbarian/ Rogue multiclass?
Zealot Barbarian has a nice saving throw boost at level 6 which is essentially 4 uses of the Fighter’s Indomitable feature.
I think 2 lv dip fighter should deserve the blue rank because everyone can benefice from it and it is the easiest to obtain. you also mentioned it a couple of times in the video for classes that don't have a good capstone
I love Mage Armor on Moon Druids. Beasts have terrible armor classes and Mage Armor is pretty much the only way to bump up your AC when you’re wild shaped.
Unarmored defense (barbarian/monk/draconic sorcerer/...) doesn't work when wildshaped?
Stars Druid 2 can be a multi-class option just because dragon form’s ability to cause you to automatically get 10 on concentration checks can bypass the need for a concentration defense feat, though it usually worse than just taking those feats.
Is it worth dipping 2 levels into Circle of Stars Druid for a Twilight Cleric at levels 7 and 8?
Sometimes I'll take a one level dip in rogue to get expertise. I recognize that Skill Expert is a viable alternative but I think there's an argument to be made for taking a one level dip to get expertise in two different skills over taking a half feat to get expertise in one.
hi treantmonk! love the channel, thanks for everything you do.
would you say Samurai's 7th level feature Elegant Courtier (+Wis mod to Pers checks; prof in Wis saves) is one of the banger lvl 7 features, that make it a good idea to wait until lvl 8 as a jump point? thanks!
Fighter 3-4 dip for a subclass like Runeknight or battle master is worth noting.
3 level dip barbarian for bear Totem subclass. Very specific but pretty godly.
Love the work the only honorable mention I would say is paladin 11 for multi classing for the improved divine smites.
I built a lvl 20 character that was 2 levels in barbarian, the 18 levels in fighter and went the samurai subclass.
Advantage every turn! I assume first round is Rage and Reckless, second round is Fighting Spirit and action surge, and every round after that is just Reckless? Adding in your second Action Surge for more damage and Fighting Spirit when you start getting low? That does sound pretty awesome.
@@wanderingshade8383 it was then if I do die I have the strength before death feat that give me an extra turn instantly before I die to either do one last attack or to heal
@@guyanderson6805 Ahhh yeah of course. That's a smart time to spend your second Action Surge.
Yes, perfect timing. Just as I was wondering whether or not to multiclass 🙂
One of the most enjoyable multiclasses I've ever played was a paladin main class with 7 levels in oath if the ancients and then 6 levels into lore bard. They were super tanky with defense fighting style plate armor a +1 shield and access to the shield spell and would just mow people down with spirit guardians and dodge.
I love level 2 cleric dips on rangers, since you can churn channel divinity into more spell slots for goodberry and pass without trace
And 2 levels of War Cleric gives a channel divinity that makes your arrows land on target when your party really needs a hit RIGHT NOW.
@@Leftists_are_Losers no, do not take that subclass, hitting one attack is not worth the spell slots you trade out, that subclass is ass
@@Siennarchist depends on what you hit with that one attack … and what other modifiers you stack on the damage…
I don't get why some people oppose multiclassing because they say it hinders flavour. It gives so much more interesting options!
"Artificer Artillerist isn't offering a whole lot after this" I'm offended. Arcane firearm, plus all the other great areas of the class like flash of genius (Lvl7) and spell storing item (Lvl11). But it's hard to argue for going a pure class on a multiclassing video!
Also 2 points of free half cover from the cannons
Sticking it out until Level 18 Wizard means unlimited Silvery Barbs, so…
I would think level 5 would be a good level for rogue. If you have resistance or temp HP it maximizes it's effectiveness a lot
I appreciate you writing the color's name
Great list, Chris!
Honorable mention for rogues taking 1 level of druid to wildshape into hostile territory and also to quickly get away from trouble.
I was scared of playing a wizard up until now because they seem squishy and I'm a beginner. If I want to give myself some room for mistakes I should make him tankier.
If I understand correctly it would be best to start with 1 Level in Cleric, choose a subclass with heavy armor and shield proficiency, get the higher base hit points and then level Wizard from Level 2 onward picking up spells like shield, mage armor etc.
Is that assumption correct?
What are some good builds using 3 or more classes? What's the build with the *most* classes that's still good from an optimization perspective?
Are we assuming good by level 20?
Something like 11 levels of echo knight, 3 levels assasin, 3 levels gloom stalker, and maybe 3 levels paladin or warlock will give you a surprise round nuke.
@The Mystery Gamer Of course. But for the sake of having fun with the question, perhaps assume the character will be created for a one-shot at exactly its perfect level. 🙂
Triple smiter: Paladin(Divine Smite), Hexblade(Eldritch Smite), and Whispers Bard(Psychic blades)
I remember Brennan Lee Mulligan played a nova build with 5 classes for a oneshot. I think it was Gloomstalker 5/Echo Knight 3/Assassin 3/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 7.
5 lvl ranger gloomstalker, 3 lvl battlemaster, 1 level twilight cleric, 3 level assassin then takr whichever class gives you the next ASI.
you want to be a bugbear or v.human/ custom lineage for xbow, 5 levels in ranger, then with battlemaster you have 5d8 superiority die with the fighting style, which you can use on trip attack, ambush or precision strike, 1 levels twilight cleric gives advantage on initiative, guideance and healing word, assassin for the extra damage. You have advantage +6-7 + 1d8 on initiative, pass without a trace and expertise for stealth and +1d8 if needed from maneuver, this may be the ultimate nova.
You can also go 4 lvls in battlemaster for the feat (recommended) and 2 levels in twilight for the channel divinity.
Scales pooly into T4, does poorly if not high on initiative, relies on stealth and surprise a lot.
question:
first of all i love this channel, and thank you for this video so so much.
so i might be confused. some of the jump points shown seem to be the last level you should take *before* jumping, while others seem to be the level *at which* you should jump (giving up features of that level).
for instance it says (i think) that barbarians and rogues have jp's of 8 and 10 respectively, having earned good features at 7 and 9. but with caster classes, it list level 5 as a jump point because *at that level* you get 3rd level spells.
is this a simple slip or am i misunderstanding? no worries tho, I'm just coming up on my first MC ever so I wanna be sure. cheers 😀
All of the levels mentioned are the level you want to achieve in the class before you switch. The reason he listed 8 and 10 and not 7 or 9 is because level 8 and 10 provided ability score improvements, so you probably want those levels - especially as a martial character. The point of highlighting the good features at 7 or 9 was just to give reason why you might go to a farther jp and not at level 5 or something.
@@hebel9372 ah ok thank you very much
I'd like to nominate 6 levels of wizard (specifically bladesinger) for orange rating. Their special Extra Attack opens room for some gish-y shenanigans for certain builds.
Well explained, many thanks
adding one lvl of monk on my harengon druid because they smoll and i dont want them strapping wood/furs all over their body for protection
People get to overly invested that if you multiclass you will not be as strong .
Correction you wont have higher level spells but the combos you get are better .
My favorite was a lw 6 eloquence bad/ lw 7-14 fire genie warlock.
Start with lw1 bard - then lw7 warlock - then lw6 bard - then rest warlock
--(Face/Infiltration)-- Have actor feat + mask of many faces + misty visions to be high class illusionist and manipulator + eloquence bard + expertise in Deception and perception ( Rank S)
--(Scouting )-- Pact of the chain imp to scout situation + high perception from expertise (Rank A)
---(Utility)---Even you your skills are not in History or arcane or religion you do have useful skills (Comp Languages, Detect magic, Identify) And jack of all trades for a little boost (Rank B)
--(Dps)-- Fireball for low lw crowds(Slots from bard and Warlock) + Concentrated damage from Eldritch blast and summon aberration while flying (Rank A)
--(Control)-- Class has good combo ,Unsettling Words + Silvery barbs + Hold person/ Raulothim's Psychic Lance to almost guarantee a success on a boss. (Rank A)
--(Survivability)-- You are not a tank but you do have Armor of agahtis + fly from genie + Misty step to avoid damage (Rank B)
--(Support)-- Class does not have good support but you can give healing potions if if party has goodbeRry to imp for easy heals for dropped players and bardic inspiration (Rank C)
What happened to Gennie lock? L1 Bludgeoning crusher, or L3 for spike growth.
what are you multiclassing into if you're multiclassing out of cleric at 5?
that's a good question. Monk, druid and ranger levels don't really provide a ton of value from their early levels until 3+ levels imo. Int and Cha classes are likely too MAD. Maybe some thematic fighter or rogue build? Shadow monk 3 could be ok, casting pass without trace w/o using slots, or the bonus action dodge/dash.
Before the campaign stalled out, I was going to multiclass the next 2 levels as barbarian on level 6 my protector aasimar death cleric [2 CD uses/sr at level 6] to get more durability and better accuracy for CD-Touch of death attacks. That character could hit really hard but its hp pool was pretty limited.
I'm curious why you skip subclass fishing on some of these. Assassin rogue, arcane trickster, weapon master fighter, all the warlock pact boons. I think 3 is a great dip for flavor and versatility on a lot of these classes. Still, thanks for the breakdown, I'll make a chart for myself.
Could maybe use some tips here
I’m looking to go with a rogue with a spellcaster dip for my next PC. The concept is an investigator who would rather be decent at a lot of things and lucky than very good at a few things
My main goal is roll manipulation and consistent use of all actions/reactions.
As of now I’m leaning Arcane trickster + diviner dip. Then at least lucky feat, I know this could be a bit of a feat/ASI heavy build (things to add profs, lucky and warcaster feel like pretty high priority) so idk if I want to go variant human or a halfling for that Reroll of nat 1s. Would love some feedback
Mechanically best wizard dips for rogue are war and bladesinger. Before you go divination i would consider chronurgist if that is an option.
@@CaitSith87 for straight combat yeah I definitely get that with war and blade singer but thematically I want to go away from those. Chronurgy is a good thought I still hadn’t looked closely at that subclass.
I’m hoping combat wise to have this character be a hit and run (really only worried about the sneak attack and making sure it hits), mess with some rolls and a little bit of battlefield control depending on the spells I take. And use as many of my action options in a round as possible.
I’ve had my issue with some of your videos but this was a slam dunk, I wish I’d found this earlier for my less confident players, and even myself when I was first getting into the game.
I would like to point out that barbarian 3 is a good dip for several builds, berserker extra attack, bear totem resistance, zealot smite, etc.
Dipping 2 levels in Druid (from cleric generally) also pays off if you are making a healer build (and your dm is ok with bending the rules on armor), shepherd and stars add a lot of healing potential. I know as an optimizer however you wouldn’t make a healer because they’re dead weight without homebrew and there isn’t any point in a 2 level dip otherwise.
Honestly any level of fighter is good to multiclass, it’s one of the easiest to mix and match with.
I would argue that any 1 level dip into warlock is fine, I would at least put it green. But tbh 2 levels is better.
Fighter jump point 2 should be blue. Heavy armor prof and action surge is amazing for casters going to 20
action surge is amazing on so many characters! Almost always a consideration for me. Not as good on monks compared with other classes though, but the short rest synergy is great.
The problem with heavy armour, unless you're a dwarf, is you need a good strength score to avoid the movement penalty.
I feel Level 5 Rouge is a bit under valued here, as Uncanny Dodge is an extremely powerful stay alive feature. (This is inspired by your somewhat recent Bugbear video)
Though maybe this is a bit niche, a build I've been working towards on one of my current characters is 1 Level Warlock, 5 Levels Rouge Assassin, 3 Levels Ranger Gloomstalker, 11 Levels Fighter Archery, Close Quarters Shooter, Champion. My idea here is that maybe Lv 5 Rouge might work well for other multiclass combos as well, as it is a strong build for early game, and uncanny dodge could be very strong for any low hp classes or tanks / melee characters.
In a perfect world I would love to somehow get one more Level to have either Level 2 Warlock, Level 11 Fighter, and Level 5 Rouge but you have to pick one or the other for this build. Essentially pick one thing to sacrifice, 3 attacks per attack action, Uncanny Dodge, or Eldritch invocations. The main point of this build is to focus on hand crossbows, making use of the Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert feats, take the alert feat and maybe play a bugbear for an ambush play style advantage.
An extra attack is always handy, Uncanny dodge might save your character's life and allow them to tank if needed, Warlock Lv 2 would add versatility ie better eldritch blast (but in this case I felt that it wasn't necessary, and the main point of taking 1 Level in warlock instead is that you gain the some class features ie Patron benefits
The multiclass game changes drastically if your DM allows you to "retrain". Since the early days, I've always allowed players to change their earlier decisions, primarily so they don't fell stuck with one or more choices made in the early game they regret later on. This is how I run my games and how my DM runs the game I play in. As long as the character is "legal" you can drop levels and add them to other classes, trade out feats or features. Tasha's added some options that are minor versions of this. Allowing your players to retrain or rebuild their characters makes it so they can choose the optimum features for any given level, as if you were running a one shot. I prefer it when it isn't too drastic and has story continuity, but even then, I'd rather the player be happy with their character than stuck with one they don't want to play. I think recently character rebuilding has been popularized by Baldur's Gate 3, due to the respec option you get from Withers.
I have always found in any case, moving out of a class one level before acquiring a feat is unwise, as you mentioned, due to the power of feats.
Why do you say monks are ok on short adventuring days?
They get ki back on a short rest (assuming they can meditate for half of it), so don't they do better the longer the adventuring day is?
I don't see how anyone would jump away at Wizard 17 when Wizard 18's feature is so damn attractive O__O. Having an unlimited level 1 and an unlimited level 2 is just too good to pass... (I'm looking at you, Shield and Misty Step)
I'm really surprised you didn't mention the 3 level rogue dip into something like Assassin or 3rd level for Warlock when you get something like "Improved Pact Weapon" or "Pact of the Chain".
Disagreement on Ranger dipping: A 2-level dip is not a terrible choice for any other martial class. Minor utility magic, and a second fighting style. You can't take the same fighting style multiple times, but multiple fighting styles stack. Here's where you pick up Defense or Archery or Two Weapon Fighting if your paladin or fighter features were already spoken for.
I'm currently playing a Lycan Blood Hunter 6/Fighter 2/Peace Cleric 1 that will run to 20th level. This is a rare case where a triple class is really powerful. Granted the Blood Hunter is homebrew.
Level 6 is a good (well, orange) jumping off point specifically for Genie Patrons, particularly Dao- for one more level you get resistance to a damage type and concentration free flying. Genie Patron could also jump at 14 since they get a limited wish every 1d4 days, but in 3 more levels you get real wish, so it'd better be a killer last 6 levels to give that up.
Fighter 12 with 3 ranger for gloomstalker, can confirm this fixed many issues balance wise for my level of play with a martial. Probably going 4 ranger and 4 twilight cleric to utilize spell buffs, feats, and a synergy between my cloak of the bat and twilight divine option. Using two really strong subclasses fixed how boring my fighter was 😵
I'm a little disappointed that you missed the most powerful jumping point of any class at any level. It's pretty obvious too, it's 100% Monk Level 0. I really hoping to see that when you went to Monk. :(
Bard 1 isn't much of a dip, but it is the easiest way to grab Faerie Fire on a Sorcerer (plus Healing Word on a non-divine soul) if that's something you want. The light armor proficiency saves a spell known, too, since you can probably forgo mage armor