Wild Magic was surprising, yes, but the real surprise? Treantmonk's melodious baritone singing "I hate mages, I hate mages, meow meow meow!" Not sure what to believe anymore...
Memes aside I'd imagine this more as a result of you simply learning to stop magic to help control your own wild magic, even down to having paladin spells being you looking to divine sources for help and, as for the athletics maybe you liked wrestling as a kid.
I mean... there aren’t very many good ones to choose from. Basically just Twinned, Quickened, Subtle, and then maybe Heightened late game, or maybe Extended for buffs.
@@M0ebius Well, it depends also on the subclass of Sorcerer. Trasmuted spell (Lightning) is vital for my Storm Sorcerer to cast Lightning ball and enjoy the Heart of Storm features (lightning all around). Seeking spell is extremely powerful in conjunction with Touch and Suck spells (Inflict Wounds and Contagion, for Divine Soul), especially if you combine it with Distant Spell. Even if by RAW it does not work, I'm sure your DM would allow Distant Spell to interact with Counterspell, Featherfall, Soulcage, Hellish Rebuke (I do not know if I forgot any other one). They are the only weird spells in all D&D that have a range specified inside the "Casting time" box, which matches the "Range" in the spell, but instead of saying "within Range", they specify "Within 60 feet". So they were not written thinking it in combination with the Distant Metamagic, that only affects the Range, but not the Casting Time. So, as per the rules now, you could cast a Distant Counterspell (120 feet), but only when you can see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell. It has been asked for several years to rewrite Counterspell (& the others) in order to clarify how they would interact with the Distant Metamagic as was intended originally, IMHO.
@@kazebaret Unfortunately my table runs RAW. Or at least as close to RAW as we can without getting into stupid territory. So metamagics do pretty much what they say they do. Also Contagion is pretty much useless IMO post-errata (or at least not worth a precious spells known pick), and Inflict Wound to me is not generally a great spell (I just dip Hexblade and run Curse + Magic Missile for auto-hit dmg). That said, yeah the new metamagic options definitely have their uses for specific builds. I’m just speaking on general terms.
@@M0ebius My bad, I did no realize they took away the "poison condition" in Contagion. Yeah, my table is pretty RAW as well, even if there are some cases where the RAW and RAI clash so much, like with Distant spell, where we prefer to keep with the RAI. I agree dipping in hexblade is very powerful, but we do not use the multiclass rule, unless there is reason for it during the adventure.
You mentioned magical guidance as a way to help ensure grapple checks. But it’s also really useful for counterspell; if you fail your spell casting ability check you can spend a sorcery point to reroll it.
To slay a mage, you have to BECOME the mage... I can imagine Bad Kitty's party ending up in some sorta time loop where Bad Kitty's ended up in the past fighting another mage, and that's the fight that caused Bad Kitty to gain their magical powers to begin with.
One homebrew element we adopted years ago....Wild Magic surge is based on the level of the spell. Cast a 2nd level spell? It's a 2 or lower on the D20, Level 9 spell? Roll a 9 or lower. The sorcerer players we've had rolled every time they used a levelled spell, had a separate colored dice used for their surge for expediency, and its been wholly satisfying as a player and a DM to implement :)
In a world where common felines are pulled from their homes to supply bodies for possessing familiar spirits, he thirsts for vengeance. When the Goddess Bastet grants him a form capable of taking revenge on casters everywhere, he becomes ...Bad Kitty! Coming this Summer from Troma Entertainment.
I think this is one of the best builds you've ever made, not necessarily in terms of being the most optimized, but it does what it sets out to do incredibly well, and I always love builds that combine some lesser used subclasses and abilities.
While I understand why you made each decision, it really puts an exclamation point on the power of EFFECTIVE teamwork. Being able to split the grapple & melee features, and the anti-mage features would be easier, and harder to shut down. Having the whole package in a single build is a bit awkward.
Would love a Monk subclass that specialized in mage hunting. Maybe have a special variant of Deflect Missile that affects ranged spell attacks, and can redirect the spell if the damage is fully negated. Maybe have a unique feature that allows the Monk to attack the Spell Slots of casters, and gives a bonus amount of temporary hit points based on the level drained + Monk Level + Wisdom Mod.
Very unique build! I love to see a Tabaxi used and the strategy guide was brilliant. It is a little unfortunate that the Silence, grapple strategy doesn’t come on line earlier but this was a really tough challenge.
I imagine it this way...spends an hour or two watching and rewatching videos, makes character, runs away from mage to cast silence, rolls a wild magic surge of 41-42, takes self out of battle as a potted plant.
My guess was sorcerer as the base. He mentioned Metamagic in his previous vid but I wasn't expecting the subclass he selected, nor the multi-classing. I recall my own ability in one campaign to screw with casters when using Subtle spells. "Nuh uh... I did not cast Charm person on you! All I did was ask Reeeaaal nicely" *wink*
You could do this with a wizard. If grappling+slaying one mage/LR, you only need 2 instances of subtle spell tops, so you can do that with metamagic adept.
@@MsNathanv You still need to be able to use quickened spell though, in order to cast silence and grapple on the same turn. If you only have metamagic adept, you can either subtle spell or quickened spell, not both
i called wild magic for the bonus to counterspelling, but i didn't even think about using tides of chaos for grapple checks as well. that's very clever. anyway it's really neat to see how all the pieces of this build came together!
I thought about this. I think the issue with relying on the sentinel feat to keep the mage in the silence is that you need to hit their AC. If a mage is optimized, it can easily have an 18-20 AC before shield. Add a shield to that and landing that sentinel hit to keep them still becomes pretty unlikely.
@@adamkaris fair enough, no shield. So now you are relying on a single attack roll against an 18-20 AC. Coin flip at best and probably a bit worse than that until higher levels.
@@ZacharyKatzStein you could use darkness instead and have advantage on all your attacks thanks to blind fighting... Vision is still an important part of spellcasting.
This is my favorite D&D channel. I love your builds and analysis. That said, this build is a dud for me, because I think it fails to deliver on concept. It is extremely effective at shutting down a single mage, but does so by going basically full spellcaster, making it more of a “wizard duel” specialist than mage slayer. To me, a mage hunter is a martial/martial leaning Gish who has a few special abilities geared towards shutting down mages. Shadow monk is not very effective, but it does deliver on the concept. Something like yuanti Hexblade 5, paladin x (watcher probably) is were I would start thinking about optimizing this concept. You get extra attack and counterspell/dispell magic at level 5, and can feel like a martial character right from level 1 with hex weapon+scag cantrips. As you level you will get the paladin auras, and can go supernova doubling up with eldritch+divine smites. It doesn’t have the total shutdown tactic of this build, but it delivers on concept right from level 1, and will do fantastic dpr/nova for the 99% of times you aren’t fighting an endgame boss mage.
Really cool and interesting build greatly fitting the concept! The only thing that sours my desire to play something like that is that... eventually you're gonna go up against the Big Bads who have Legendary Resistances, Actions, Layer Actions and so on. So when your ability to be the Mage Slayer is needed the most the Villain can just choose to succeed that saving throw or make the floor shake so that you fall on your ass and lose the grapple or something else just because. It would really stink to be this badass Slayer of Mages in the midgame only to go splat ineffectively by the time the Big Boss arrives.
If you want to use your wild magic surge, just use tides of chaos and ask your DM to make you roll on the wild magic surge table on your next spell. With a coperative DM you should be surging all over the place.
Agreed. I never understood the argument that the surges don't come up. There are rules for causing them to come up all the time that most people don't seem to pay attention to.
I think the 2nd level spell "Maximilians earthen grasp" is good also. STR save vs restrained condition is harder than Athletics or acrobatics to escape. Also there are a few ways to make the target have disadvantage (Arcane tricker feature, eldritch knight feature, or metamagic). I think using this as opposed to grapple would make the build more focused maybe? Just ditch the grappling totally.
Problem is both Earthen Grasp and Silence are concentration spells so you can't use them together, the reason you want Restrained + Silenced is so that the Mage can't teleport out of it, if you used Earthen Grasp you won't have Silence so the Mage can just Misty Step away from it.
Since we're talking about fighting NPC casters with better spell selection wouldn't a spellcaster with hypnotic pattern & counterspell wreck Bad Kitty most of the time given his atrocious WIS save and the fact that neither has verbal components?
Would you be able to use cutting words in Silence with the telepathic feat? I think at the very least you'd find a lot of DMs who would rule in your favor.
Nice build! I like the strategy going in. I might consider Divine Soul over Wild Magic to sacrifice some of the Grappling benefits (of which you stack quite many, each gaining lower marginal value as the previous layer ramps up the % of a successful Grapple, such that additional stacked layers affect an ever smaller miss %) to get Counterspell + Silence in the same Class Spell List, to bring everything online much faster and access higher level spells much more quickly (plus more Sorcery Points and such, not to mention the entire Cleric Spell List). Almost as effective vs. mages (and quicker to come online), while having IMO much better performance vs. non-mages.
And if you can get a lucky feat in there, that would help with a more reliable form of advantage perhaps. You do miss the bard features of course. I was thinking of Divine Soul right away for the "Favored of the Gods" ability A divine bad kitty on a mission from god to slay mages?
@@kazebaret I saw from Treantmonk and also read into it myself, but the Divine Soul ability doesn't work, because "Favored by the Gods' doesn't work on ability checks. Grapple is an ability check
@@Hendori3 Yes I know, that's why I wrote "saving throw". "Favored of the Gods" is not useful for the grappling, but when an enemy mage casts a spell on you.
Rogue/Sorc - use Subtle Spell along with Illusion magic like Silence and Invisibility to get close to mage's under stealth. Grab Abjuration and Conjuration spells along with Twinned and Quickened Spell to deal with their magic (Dispel Magic, Counterspell, etc.) and then Sneak Attack for the kill.
For my own Mage Killer, I drew inspiration from Fate/Zero’s Emiya Kiritsugu. Criteria: Excellent counters towards magic reliant opponents Amazing mobility options Guns akimbo with a Calico submachine gun and a Thompson single shot (or whatever equavalent depending on whether or not the DM has firearms on their campaign). Stats: Dex 15 Int 15 Con 12 Wis 12 Cha 8 Str 8 Race Variant Human Mage Slayer feat +1 Dex and Int Free skill: Arcana Urban Bounty Hunter - Stealth, Insight, Thieves’ Tools, Undercommon, Ear to the Ground 11 lvls Rogue: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Investigation Expertise - Arcana, Investigation, Perception, Insight Sneak Attack 6d6 Cunning Action Mage Hand Legerdemain (Arcane Trickster) Steady Aim +2 Dex Uncanny Dodge Evasion +2 Dex Magical Ambush (Arcane Trickster) Sharpshooter Reliable Talent 4 lvls Artificer: Magical Tinkering Infusions - Repeating Shot, Sending Stones, Enhanced Weapon, Goggles of Night Eldritch Cannon - Force Ballista (Artillerist) +2 Int 5 lvls Wizard: Arcane Recovery Tactical Wit, Arcane Deflection (School of War Magic) +2 Int Spells (not all of them since I don’t want to faff about): Mage Hand Message Spare the Dying True Strike (which is actually pretty good on a Rogue considering the conditions needed for Sneak Attack) Green Flame Blade Firebolt Booming Blade Cure Wounds Jump Longstrider Shield Darkvision Arcane Weapon Magic Weapon Misty Step Blink Blur Haste Counterspell Dispel Magic Fireball If I rolled these stats instead of using Point Buy, chances are I would’ve taken Resilient for Con saves, Fighting Initiate for Archery, War Caster, Alert, Observant, Keen Mind and/or Tough.
Holy shit, I have a sorc/bard build I have been working on that is very similar to this. The support and utility this build brings makes it awesome even when not fighting casters.
5:41 initial thoughts would be to use quick toss to throw a net as a bonus action 16:17 seeming you didn't go net here. A bit surprised to be honest 22:17 shocking grasp is verbal, but with subtle spell you could do this in the area of silence while grappling to block absorb elements, a reaction spell with no verbal components. Additionally shield, but this is also blocked by silence as its V/S 34:43 if only this was a wisdom build, then you could get away with observant just to read lips in silence. 38:56 if the mage is using a spellcasting focus instead of component pouch, then fear could be really good as the mage would drop their focus making them incapable of casting many material components spells 47:18 the enhanced movement was a very interesting solution to the counterspell problem, I would have thought that using your reaction for a subtle counterspell would work but obviously much more expensive than just being a fast boi
More than a 100 rounds of combat after our monk got stunning strike and it worked only twice, both because of bend luck. It's there when we really need it.
Very cool take on the mage slayer idea. I'm personally a fan of the traditional ancients hexadin with yuan ti or satyr thrown in for good measure, but new creative options are always good =).
I would rule for unsettling words that it wouldn’t work in a silence spell. I say that cause it states “you can spin your words laced with magic” How can you talk if you are in silence?
Great video, only thing I would have prioritized over other ASI would have been resilent WIS because having proficency in both wis and con for when something goes wrong and the mages actually manage to cast a big save and suck is important. Sure paladin is great but comes online late and would stack with proficency
I had a very similar build based on your ideas, but what is your opinion on clockwork soul as a subclass? You can swap out the extra spells known to be any abjuration (or transmutation spell) a warlock, wizard, or sorcerer could cast. So you can pick up counterspell, dispell magic, shield, etc. for "free". Plus, "Magical Guidance" at level 5 lets you reroll any failed ability check for a sorcerer point, be it a grapple check or a counterspell check.
Would be interested in seeing how acrobatic you would have to get in multiclassing and drawing from usually banned book sources to make a mage slayer that was actually a martial (like most mage slayers that people like to build) while still avoiding using a monk... ;p
I'd usually prefer Lucky to Alert. The effective bonus is similar, but Lucky is more flexible, and it's bonus is biased toward where we need it: when we roll low. Although Alert does have a nice side-effect interaction with Blind Fighting, and if building this as an ambusher via Stealth expertise, I might prefer Alert anyways.
What they should focus on: - break concentration - mute - immobilize - give them a big ole' headache, like a killer migraine that would prevent them to cast anything right even if they're unparalized and unmuted - biggest meta: have a magical object that nullifies all magic and casting of magic in a radius, alternatively have other meams to sever their connection to the weave or whatever else These are all things you could do with poisons, basically drop them like you'd drop an escaped zoo animal with a dart gun.
I’ve tried a build similar to this. It works great, so long as the enemy spell caster isn’t also a sorcerer 😂😅😭 I try to take advantage of being 65ft away, and boom, distance still counterspell 😭 A well timed distant spell is sometimes just as effective as a subtle spell!
I was the guy in the other Mage Hunter video who advocated the Shadow Monk as a *DECENT* Mage Slayer. While I argued there that a Shadow Monk was nowhere near as bad as you'd observed (you had some poor logic in some observations, and had forgotten about some features in others). But, I like this build because, unlike the Shadow Monk, you also have access to spells for utility, more skills, and a more effective grapple check. Also, you have Dispel Magic and Counterspell, which I like. Well done! My only argument is that not all mages will fit all of the qualities of the "Our Prey" section, so for the most part you are preparing for an unlikelihood happening. I would argue that 90% of the mages you go up against will not be like Vecna or Lord Soth. This is why I also appreciate how your build fits in other combat and roleplay scenarios, as well. Here is my slightly-not-as-good Shadow Monk build: Firbolg (+2 Wisdom, +1 Strength). Assuming a standard array, I would give them 15 Strength, 14 Wisdom, and 13 Dexterity. I would spend my first ASI on Sentinel and the rest on STR and then WIS, allowing me to have 20 STR and 20 WIS by level 19. I also chose Athletics and Stealth as my proficiencies. This allows me to have great grappling checks while at the same time having a 19 Ki Save DC, which is as high a DC as one can have in D&D. Optionally, you can also use an ASI to get the Alert feat for better initiative. So, imagine this: The strategy can be used as early as level 5 and scales well into the latter stages of play. First turn, I rely on my Dexterity to get a higher initiative than the caster. This would be aided with the Alert feat. For my full action, I cast Silence on the caster. As a bonus action, I cast Hidden Step to turn invisible and gap-close as much as I can to the caster. I'm able to use Silence and Hidden Step in one turn because Hidden Step is a spell-like ability and does not count as a spell. You mention here that it would be easier indoors to cast Silence because of the nooks and crannies of something like a dungeon. Your words, not mine. Outside, I'd have to be at least 10th level to cast Silence without being Counterspelled before gap-closing with Hidden Step in the same turn. If I can't get close enough to Hidden Step, I'd use Shadow Step or Step of the Wind to gap-close. If I was close enough to the caster when the fight began, then I'm doing Flurry of Blows, with each blow doing a Stunning Strike. On the caster's turn, they can't move because I have advantage on my opportunity attack (if I used Hidden Step as a Bonus Action) and Sentinel. I can even try to stun them with Stunning Strike, but I don't need it to keep them in the zone of Silence. On my next turn, I can do any combination of Stuns and/or Grapples as my Attack action and then use Flurry of Blows on my Bonus Action to get in as much stuns as I can to stun-lock or grapple-lock the caster every turn. At the very least, the Silence + Sentinel + Hidden Step/Shadow Step mobility would do very well as a way to keep Silence on the caster without needing to do much on the monk's full action. This build doesn't have as many features to make my grapple hit 100% of the time like your build does, but as long as I have enough ki points, I can repeat the strategy until I'm able to get one stun and/or grapple in.
I think you could make something work with a ranger / fighter multi class going gloom stalker and rune knight. The gloom stalker gets bonuses to initiative and the rune knight on a hit can as a free action use the fire rune to restrain the target, action surge and cast silence then Bobs your uncle
What my main DM does for Wild Magic (WM) is for every sorcerer spell you cast that does not trigger WM, you increase the activation range by one. Once you trigger the ability, it resets back one. For example, sorcerer casts a spell, rolls a 17 on the die and does not get a 1 to activate WM. On the 2nd turn, they roll a 12 and does not get a 1 or 2. On the next turn, they roll a 2 which is would trigger WM. On the 4th turn they roll a 2, which is not a 1 to trigger WM.
Here's a hipster build if you ever play AL and end up getting an Instrument of the Bards early from CCC-GSP01 A Dragon's Breath. Bard 6 College of Creation. Tabaxi, similar to TM's build. Longstrider, create a small Dancing Item, and... Crown of Madness? Dancing Item travelling on your shoulder. Round begins. You get 50 movement, thanks to Longstrider and Dancing Item. Action: Cast Crown of Madness from further away than Counterspell range. Disadvantage on saving throw. Next, run in to 30 feet from the enemy mage (you have 100 feet, should be pretty easy), leave your Dancing Item there, and come back to your party. Bonus Action something useful, inspiration, whatever. Next, Dancing Item flies over the mage and Dodges. Enemy mage begins, has -10 movement from Dancing Item, and must use its action to melee attack with disadvantage the Dancing Item, which has 40 HP, 16 AC, and mage will probably attack with a dagger or something weak. Mage can now run away probably 20 feet (triggers AoO from Dancing Item), and maybe Misty Step (doesn't trigger AoO from Dancing Item), so about 50 feet away from the Dancing Item. End of turn, another saving throw with disadvantage. Back to the top of the round, bard maintains the spell, bonus actions Dancing Item to Dash if mage used Misty Step, or bonus actions something useful again if mage did not Misty Step away, and then Dancing item flies over Mage, either Dashing or Dodging again. Rinse and repeat, only no disadvantage if mage used Misty Step. Hipster!
To be honest I think a Divine Soul Hexblade into Eloquence would do about 80% of these things, while being much better when not fighting mages. Not to mention you can just hose spellcasters with Hexblade’s Curse + Magic Missile irregardless of their AC (backed up by Counterspell), and burn all your empty high level slots that way. Heck you would have room to toss in Darkness + Devil’s Sight and partially shutdown enemy spellcasting too. And if you want to get really fancy instead of 7 Paladin levels just take 2 Fighter levels for back to back Cursed Missiles. Most casters aren’t gonna survive that, and if they do almost anybody in the party can finish the target off same round.
Just occurred to me that a fairly standard sorcadin would check most of these boxes given its burst damage, strong saves, and access to sorcerer spells. That would probably take 9 levels to fully come online, but it's not like paladins are *bad* at killing anything, spellcasters included, up until that point. That said, I'm not surprised that you ended up with a multiclass build. It's difficult to find a single-classed character who checks all of the boxes, particularly if one of the boxes includes saving throws. Lots of characters who, from a thematic perspective, arguably *should* be good at killing spellcasters, such as Assassin rogues or Way of Shadow monks, check some of the boxes but are simply lacking in too many others.
Best thing is, if you go all the way to Level 20, you could get to 5th level Bard so Unsettling Words becomes even better. Plus, I think I'd rather put that 8th level in Sorcerer rather than Paladin just for that extra sorcery point so you can use your resources slightly more often before having to replenish with spell slots. But still, this is a good build, no doubt.
Recently I played a optimized Bowser, who was a wild magic grappler turtle with green flame blade, subtle, quickened and instead of fay touched skill expert for the expertise. The first enemy was my real-life friend, the storm sorcerer, which I grappled and held his mouth, while burning him little bit. Next time I will consider silence!
Granted I'm 3 years late. But my guess, 8 minutes into this video, is something like a Rogue Bard multiclass. Proficiency and Expertise in a few skills, and a full caster spell list to gain the spells quickly before level 10. Since Treantmonk said Dispel, counterspell, and silence aren't on the same list, I can only think of Lore Bard at level 6 grabbing the spells it needs. I wonder if I'm right
Really cool concept! Out of curiosity, for locking down enemy mages, did you consider Sentinel? I feel like there is a lot less commitment/investment than going into the grapple space. You could go Variant Human Warlock 5 and be pretty well online (Fathomless - snags Silence, Counterspell, Sentinel, and Metamagic Adept). The commitment to grapple is heavy, and is only usable on Large or smaller casters. You could come online a little later and go Satyr/Yuan-ti Pureblood and be a little better in fights with more than one caster as well. Minor Illusion to block enemy spellcaster's vision of you, cast silence (quickened) on them free, and then walk up to them in melee - if they try to escape Sentinel bash em.
planning on taking down Halister- silence and shove/ grapple are the main plan- pushing him into a anti magic field. and of course, winning initiative.
I think the Yuan-Ti race is a must for a mage slayer, as it gives you that magic resistance. If you the AC of an Armor Artificer it makes it really hard for the mage to hit you at all. Armor artificers also make truly excellent grapplers. So start with Artificer-4. Next, I want to do damage once I have someone grappled, so I go Hexblade-2 for the next two levels for Eldritch Blast and take the Crossbow Expert so I can use EB while within 5' (i.e. grappling and assuming one hand free). Hexblade also gives Shield making AC way better. Next switch to Divine Soul Sorcerer-6 then finish in Artificer. You're good at grappling, can do damage, and have the sorcerer/cleric spells -- Counterspell, Silience, Dispell Magic, etc.
The Wild magic surges can happen a lot of the time depending on the DM. The ability Tides of Chaos gives the power to the DM of actually having a wild magic surge any time the sorcerer casts a levelled spell regardless of rolling a 1 on the d20 once the tides of chaos advantage has been used, which also refreshes the ability, giving the sorcerer the chance to use it again, etc. This makes it that a DM and a party that enjoy the wild magic surge can actually have plenty of surges. There is no need to homebrew this part of the wild magic sorcerer IMO, and with a cooperative DM that actually isn't scared of the wild magic surge, this sorcerer is actually quite good and probably one of the most fun classes out there. Honestly, before playing the class in the first place, I'd recommend actually speaking with the DM about this, as it can greatly change the experience of the player and party involved in a game with a wild magic sorcerer. There was a oneshot I had where I played a wild magic sorcerer and took the advantage as much as I could and the DM then made me roll on the wild magic table for nearly all spells I tossed, it was hilarious and one of the most fun I ever had when playing.
I agree that so many so called Mage Slayer builds were addressing the wrong set of problems. Treantmonk’s list of the six he believed needed addressing hit the mark. I don’t think I necessarily had this list in mind but had been adding aspects of them into one of my favorite character builds that I have been modifying as new material comes out. It never included grappling since Strength was something hard to build into a good Mage Slayer. Now if there were a way to do a grapple using Acrobatics to apply so that Dexterity builds could give it a try then I think most Slayers build would have naturally evolved along these lines. I am imagining MMA grapplers they seem to be using speed and agility more than brute strength. But leave it to Treantmonk to squeeze out the right abilities to deliver the goods. My own personal build tried to be very good at 5 of the 6 excluding the grapple. I figure of the things on the list the grappling would definitely be one thing that could be pushed off to a Fighter in the party. I viewed the mage slaying more in the realm of higher level mages say past 13th level. Lower than that any standard party just clobbers a mage and a few minions with action economy alone. Great build though. Hate to be a single caster running afoul of Bad Kitty.
I was wondering what you were going to come up with another RUclipsr Drow Bard has a unconventional valor bard build that specializes in grappling that might work good
Would this not work better as just a sorcadin without bard? Divine Soul Sorc can pick up Silence and Counterspell from a single spell list on top of things like spiritual weapon, the Sorcadin is a generally fantastic build that benefits from strength, and with extra attack you can make multiple grapple attempts. That being said, I do feel like the build design works a LOT better for two players going back to back (like a cleric and barbarian) rather than trying to fit the whole suite on one. There's also just something incredibly funny about a frothing, raging barbarian beating the crap out of a screaming, panicking wizard while they both look like a silent film to everyone else.
I think I found a problem with your build: One of the things you are looking for is to get tons of initiative roll bonuses, right? Well, the jack of all trades initiative bonus and the oath of the watchers aura of the sentinel bonus don't stack because "Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die roll or other number more than once". I realise that you are probably aware and that your reasoning for the selection might be for paladin for the better initiative and bard more for for silence and expertise. However! What would you say to taking oath of conquest instead of watchers to get Armor of Agathys instead of the initiative buff? You still get jack of all trades half proficiency bump to initiative and that spell is soo good. The Conquest speed-0-to-frightened-creatures combined with if we take fear as our sorcerer 7 spell allows us to fear-"stun" a bunch of enemies. It is perhaps moving away a bit from the optimised concept of the build, but could make for a stronger and more versatile character overall?
I like some of the Earthen Grasp ideas but that only deals with the movement and without Silence does not do much to hinder a Mage. So would require a second caster and then we are dealing with Mage Slayers not a Mage Slayer. So this character build has the ability to solo Mage Slay which is an important distinction.
Interesting and (obviously, once you look at the finished product) effective build. My only critique would be that, if you want the build to be primarily a spellcaster, it might be better to concentrate more on the full caster classes (probably bard for the extra hit points, though there's something attractive about more sorcery points as well) and less on paladin. Even a couple of extra levels in sorcerer would give you some fifth-level spells, or you could take one extra level in each full caster class and get two more ability increases/feats rather than just one along with two levels' worth of spell slots ... and still have a level 6 paladin. Or if you wanted to forego the saving throw bonuses (I'm not sure I would), you could get up to 6th-level sorcerer spells or 4th-level bard spells, plus the College of Eloquence 6th-level features, which are pretty awesome as far as "being useful in situations other than being-attacked-by-spellcasters" goes. ;)
Most DM's I know that would go to the trouble of making a mage boss would already be giving it subtle spell to deal with the counterspell problem. How does this build fare as a mage hunter when things go wrong?
Wildemount is homebrew according to all DM's I have played with. Disparity in wording, powerlevel and mechanics of the classes and stuff created in the campaign setting compared to most official content.
For the Sorcerer Tides of Chaos ability, There is no role of 1 required. The DM decides after you cast a Sorcerer spell if s/he wants you to roll on the Wild Magic Surge table. Once you make that roll you regain the Tides of Chaos ability. It is this reliance on a DM which is the reason I have only played a Wild Sorcerer once. The DM was a a$$ and had me roll on every non-cantrip sorcerer spell I rolled except when I wanted to roll, usually in desperation. . .
needing to roll every time you cast is part of the core class, you need to roll a 1 to surge though so only 5% chance how it is supposed to work is that you use tides of chaos to grant yourself advantage, then you cast a spell and automatically surge, then get tides of chaos back so basically permanent advantage but risk rolling on the surge table
![Natanael Cano - Amor Eterno [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EO4prCs6WpM/mqdefault.jpg)
Quick correction (doesn't change the build): Counterspell does not have a verbal component.
Thank you for the correction.
What if the enemy mage has Distant Metamagic? Can the speed account for the extra travel distance?
According to my youtube page Treantmonk journeyed from 2 weeks in the past to deliver this correction
@@ariashkenazi9211 he likely filmed this 2 weeks ago
@@UEGDonkey madness, I blame time magic
Remember the housecat that killed low level mages in old D&D? This is him now.
exactly the humor I noticed... :P
If you are using the silence spell you probably want to switch out booming blade as anyone in silence is immune to thunder damage.
What would you recommend for the replacement? Just GreenFlame? or something else entirely?
Green flame blade would be a good sub.
Wild Magic was surprising, yes, but the real surprise? Treantmonk's melodious baritone singing "I hate mages, I hate mages, meow meow meow!" Not sure what to believe anymore...
Treantmonk: For the most part, I'm going to be casting spells.
Obi-wan: You have become what you swore to destroy!
Uncle: Magic must defeat magic!
Memes aside I'd imagine this more as a result of you simply learning to stop magic to help control your own wild magic, even down to having paladin spells being you looking to divine sources for help and, as for the athletics maybe you liked wrestling as a kid.
Chris sounded so disappointed when he admitted to using Tabaxi for this build. XD
As well he should.
Haha furry
subtle spell is quickly becomming my favorit meta magic.
Mine too.
I mean... there aren’t very many good ones to choose from. Basically just Twinned, Quickened, Subtle, and then maybe Heightened late game, or maybe Extended for buffs.
@@M0ebius Well, it depends also on the subclass of Sorcerer. Trasmuted spell (Lightning) is vital for my Storm Sorcerer to cast Lightning ball and enjoy the Heart of Storm features (lightning all around). Seeking spell is extremely powerful in conjunction with Touch and Suck spells (Inflict Wounds and Contagion, for Divine Soul), especially if you combine it with Distant Spell. Even if by RAW it does not work, I'm sure your DM would allow Distant Spell to interact with Counterspell, Featherfall, Soulcage, Hellish Rebuke (I do not know if I forgot any other one). They are the only weird spells in all D&D that have a range specified inside the "Casting time" box, which matches the "Range" in the spell, but instead of saying "within Range", they specify "Within 60 feet". So they were not written thinking it in combination with the Distant Metamagic, that only affects the Range, but not the Casting Time. So, as per the rules now, you could cast a Distant Counterspell (120 feet), but only when you can see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell. It has been asked for several years to rewrite Counterspell (& the others) in order to clarify how they would interact with the Distant Metamagic as was intended originally, IMHO.
@@kazebaret Unfortunately my table runs RAW. Or at least as close to RAW as we can without getting into stupid territory. So metamagics do pretty much what they say they do. Also Contagion is pretty much useless IMO post-errata (or at least not worth a precious spells known pick), and Inflict Wound to me is not generally a great spell (I just dip Hexblade and run Curse + Magic Missile for auto-hit dmg).
That said, yeah the new metamagic options definitely have their uses for specific builds. I’m just speaking on general terms.
@@M0ebius My bad, I did no realize they took away the "poison condition" in Contagion. Yeah, my table is pretty RAW as well, even if there are some cases where the RAW and RAI clash so much, like with Distant spell, where we prefer to keep with the RAI. I agree dipping in hexblade is very powerful, but we do not use the multiclass rule, unless there is reason for it during the adventure.
You mentioned magical guidance as a way to help ensure grapple checks. But it’s also really useful for counterspell; if you fail your spell casting ability check you can spend a sorcery point to reroll it.
would the real mage slayer please stand up
Substitute teacher: "Mageh Layer. Mageh Layer? MAGEH LAYER!?"
Student: "Mage Slayer?"
sub teacher: "God damn it!"
To slay a mage, you have to BECOME the mage...
I can imagine Bad Kitty's party ending up in some sorta time loop where Bad Kitty's ended up in the past fighting another mage, and that's the fight that caused Bad Kitty to gain their magical powers to begin with.
I love this
One homebrew element we adopted years ago....Wild Magic surge is based on the level of the spell. Cast a 2nd level spell? It's a 2 or lower on the D20, Level 9 spell? Roll a 9 or lower. The sorcerer players we've had rolled every time they used a levelled spell, had a separate colored dice used for their surge for expediency, and its been wholly satisfying as a player and a DM to implement :)
In a world where common felines are pulled from their homes to supply bodies for possessing familiar spirits, he thirsts for vengeance. When the Goddess Bastet grants him a form capable of taking revenge on casters everywhere, he becomes ...Bad Kitty! Coming this Summer from Troma Entertainment.
I think this is one of the best builds you've ever made, not necessarily in terms of being the most optimized, but it does what it sets out to do incredibly well, and I always love builds that combine some lesser used subclasses and abilities.
a belt of giant strength should be pretty good on this character
i expect :"the REAL real mage slayer" next week ! :)
Will the real mage slayer please stand up
Perfection
While I understand why you made each decision, it really puts an exclamation point on the power of EFFECTIVE teamwork. Being able to split the grapple & melee features, and the anti-mage features would be easier, and harder to shut down. Having the whole package in a single build is a bit awkward.
"I hate mages, meow, meow, meow" is going to be stuck in my head for the rest of the day
Would love a Monk subclass that specialized in mage hunting. Maybe have a special variant of Deflect Missile that affects ranged spell attacks, and can redirect the spell if the damage is fully negated.
Maybe have a unique feature that allows the Monk to attack the Spell Slots of casters, and gives a bonus amount of temporary hit points based on the level drained + Monk Level + Wisdom Mod.
Very unique build! I love to see a Tabaxi used and the strategy guide was brilliant. It is a little unfortunate that the Silence, grapple strategy doesn’t come on line earlier but this was a really tough challenge.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I think if you focused on like primarily doing the silence grapple. Bm ranger would be perfect
I think your “ultimate Jack of all trades” would make an great mage Hunter.
Well, it is a Jack of all trades after all.
I imagine it this way...spends an hour or two watching and rewatching videos, makes character, runs away from mage to cast silence, rolls a wild magic surge of 41-42, takes self out of battle as a potted plant.
This is... certainly an odd one. Solid, no major complains other than how many levels it takes to get going, but really, REALLY weird.
Pre-watch comment: I’m going to guess that to slay a mage…you need a mage. So my guess is that this is going to be a Wizard build.
My guess was sorcerer as the base. He mentioned Metamagic in his previous vid but I wasn't expecting the subclass he selected, nor the multi-classing.
I recall my own ability in one campaign to screw with casters when using Subtle spells.
"Nuh uh... I did not cast Charm person on you! All I did was ask Reeeaaal nicely" *wink*
You could do this with a wizard. If grappling+slaying one mage/LR, you only need 2 instances of subtle spell tops, so you can do that with metamagic adept.
@@MsNathanv You still need to be able to use quickened spell though, in order to cast silence and grapple on the same turn. If you only have metamagic adept, you can either subtle spell or quickened spell, not both
i called wild magic for the bonus to counterspelling, but i didn't even think about using tides of chaos for grapple checks as well. that's very clever. anyway it's really neat to see how all the pieces of this build came together!
A shadow monk with blind fighting and sentinel works for me... Sometimes the best solution is the simplest.
I thought about this. I think the issue with relying on the sentinel feat to keep the mage in the silence is that you need to hit their AC. If a mage is optimized, it can easily have an 18-20 AC before shield. Add a shield to that and landing that sentinel hit to keep them still becomes pretty unlikely.
@@ZacharyKatzStein Oh shield? That spell with a verbal component which cannot be used in the silence spell? Got it.
@@adamkaris fair enough, no shield. So now you are relying on a single attack roll against an 18-20 AC. Coin flip at best and probably a bit worse than that until higher levels.
@@ZacharyKatzStein you could use darkness instead and have advantage on all your attacks thanks to blind fighting... Vision is still an important part of spellcasting.
This is my favorite D&D channel. I love your builds and analysis.
That said, this build is a dud for me, because I think it fails to deliver on concept. It is extremely effective at shutting down a single mage, but does so by going basically full spellcaster, making it more of a “wizard duel” specialist than mage slayer.
To me, a mage hunter is a martial/martial leaning Gish who has a few special abilities geared towards shutting down mages. Shadow monk is not very effective, but it does deliver on the concept.
Something like yuanti Hexblade 5, paladin x (watcher probably) is were I would start thinking about optimizing this concept. You get extra attack and counterspell/dispell magic at level 5, and can feel like a martial character right from level 1 with hex weapon+scag cantrips. As you level you will get the paladin auras, and can go supernova doubling up with eldritch+divine smites. It doesn’t have the total shutdown tactic of this build, but it delivers on concept right from level 1, and will do fantastic dpr/nova for the 99% of times you aren’t fighting an endgame boss mage.
This is exactly what I had hoped for in the last video. The great hunter of mages is a mage
Thundercats are on the move Thundercats are loose! I'll assume that one of mages were actually a mummy lord.
I think he would be an undying warlock.
I love your level breakdown videos. Always super informative.
omg this video is perfect! my next character will be a mage hunter , thank you , you're awesome
A very interesting build. I'd definitely be interested to see more based around roles like this.
Really cool and interesting build greatly fitting the concept! The only thing that sours my desire to play something like that is that... eventually you're gonna go up against the Big Bads who have Legendary Resistances, Actions, Layer Actions and so on. So when your ability to be the Mage Slayer is needed the most the Villain can just choose to succeed that saving throw or make the floor shake so that you fall on your ass and lose the grapple or something else just because. It would really stink to be this badass Slayer of Mages in the midgame only to go splat ineffectively by the time the Big Boss arrives.
Can I just say that this was really neat? Good stuff.
If you want to use your wild magic surge, just use tides of chaos and ask your DM to make you roll on the wild magic surge table on your next spell. With a coperative DM you should be surging all over the place.
Agreed. I never understood the argument that the surges don't come up. There are rules for causing them to come up all the time that most people don't seem to pay attention to.
Yeah if a DM forgets about your ability, just ask them. Don't expect your DM to remember everything, just help them out a bit.
I think the 2nd level spell "Maximilians earthen grasp" is good also. STR save vs restrained condition is harder than Athletics or acrobatics to escape. Also there are a few ways to make the target have disadvantage (Arcane tricker feature, eldritch knight feature, or metamagic). I think using this as opposed to grapple would make the build more focused maybe? Just ditch the grappling totally.
Problem is both Earthen Grasp and Silence are concentration spells so you can't use them together, the reason you want Restrained + Silenced is so that the Mage can't teleport out of it, if you used Earthen Grasp you won't have Silence so the Mage can just Misty Step away from it.
@@banan9377 true enough!
For Wild Magic I recommend you let your player roll every time they cast a sorceror spell of lv 1 or higher. Always. It is fun!
Since we're talking about fighting NPC casters with better spell selection wouldn't a spellcaster with hypnotic pattern & counterspell wreck Bad Kitty most of the time given his atrocious WIS save and the fact that neither has verbal components?
A spellcaster would be counterspelled most of the time. But a BBEG who causes a non-spell Wisdom save will wreck bad kitty.
Would you be able to use cutting words in Silence with the telepathic feat? I think at the very least you'd find a lot of DMs who would rule in your favor.
Officially no, but I agree that a lot of DMs would probably allow it
Nice build! I like the strategy going in. I might consider Divine Soul over Wild Magic to sacrifice some of the Grappling benefits (of which you stack quite many, each gaining lower marginal value as the previous layer ramps up the % of a successful Grapple, such that additional stacked layers affect an ever smaller miss %) to get Counterspell + Silence in the same Class Spell List, to bring everything online much faster and access higher level spells much more quickly (plus more Sorcery Points and such, not to mention the entire Cleric Spell List). Almost as effective vs. mages (and quicker to come online), while having IMO much better performance vs. non-mages.
Do not forget "Favored of the Gods", which can really help you should you face a Saving Throw cast from that mage.
And if you can get a lucky feat in there, that would help with a more reliable form of advantage perhaps.
You do miss the bard features of course. I was thinking of Divine Soul right away for the "Favored of the Gods" ability
A divine bad kitty on a mission from god to slay mages?
@@Hendori3 That sounds... hilarious and terrifying at the same time!
@@kazebaret I saw from Treantmonk and also read into it myself, but the Divine Soul ability doesn't work, because "Favored by the Gods' doesn't work on ability checks. Grapple is an ability check
@@Hendori3 Yes I know, that's why I wrote "saving throw". "Favored of the Gods" is not useful for the grappling, but when an enemy mage casts a spell on you.
Rogue/Sorc - use Subtle Spell along with Illusion magic like Silence and Invisibility to get close to mage's under stealth. Grab Abjuration and Conjuration spells along with Twinned and Quickened Spell to deal with their magic (Dispel Magic, Counterspell, etc.) and then Sneak Attack for the kill.
For my own Mage Killer, I drew inspiration from Fate/Zero’s Emiya Kiritsugu. Criteria:
Excellent counters towards magic reliant opponents
Amazing mobility options
Guns akimbo with a Calico submachine gun and a Thompson single shot (or whatever equavalent depending on whether or not the DM has firearms on their campaign).
Stats:
Dex 15
Int 15
Con 12
Wis 12
Cha 8
Str 8
Race Variant Human
Mage Slayer feat
+1 Dex and Int
Free skill: Arcana
Urban Bounty Hunter - Stealth, Insight, Thieves’ Tools, Undercommon, Ear to the Ground
11 lvls Rogue:
Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Investigation
Expertise - Arcana, Investigation, Perception, Insight
Sneak Attack 6d6
Cunning Action
Mage Hand Legerdemain (Arcane Trickster)
Steady Aim
+2 Dex
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
+2 Dex
Magical Ambush (Arcane Trickster)
Sharpshooter
Reliable Talent
4 lvls Artificer:
Magical Tinkering
Infusions - Repeating Shot, Sending Stones, Enhanced Weapon, Goggles of Night
Eldritch Cannon - Force Ballista (Artillerist)
+2 Int
5 lvls Wizard:
Arcane Recovery
Tactical Wit, Arcane Deflection (School of War Magic)
+2 Int
Spells (not all of them since I don’t want to faff about):
Mage Hand
Message
Spare the Dying
True Strike (which is actually pretty good on a Rogue considering the conditions needed for Sneak Attack)
Green Flame Blade
Firebolt
Booming Blade
Cure Wounds
Jump
Longstrider
Shield
Darkvision
Arcane Weapon
Magic Weapon
Misty Step
Blink
Blur
Haste
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Fireball
If I rolled these stats instead of using Point Buy, chances are I would’ve taken Resilient for Con saves, Fighting Initiate for Archery, War Caster, Alert, Observant, Keen Mind and/or Tough.
I was honestly expecting a straight Sorcerer, the Paladin levels hit me like a truck.
Yeah, paladin came out of no where!
I've been waiting for a Wild Magic build! Tides of Chaos and Bend Luck are great building blocks for a gish character.
Ok, I'm impressed with the creativity. Awesome build :D
Awesome, thank you!
Holy shit, I have a sorc/bard build I have been working on that is very similar to this. The support and utility this build brings makes it awesome even when not fighting casters.
Hi! I love this character. I think that introducing the story of the characters into the video brings richness. :) Congrats again for your chanel!
Not at all what I was expecting.
tbh, it wasn't what I was expecting when I started the project either. At all.
Do Unsettling Words actually work in Silence? Because I mean, it's still WORDS right?
That’s what I was coming here to say
This is a great build! Really appreciate the effort. I would give this one a go for sure.
Great video! Another build I would love to see one day is a build specifically focussed on defeating aberrations.
If I hadn't liked already, I would have liked for the Frere Jacques bit alone.
came to watch faster than the notification, so very nice
If a wild mage never surged, they obviously aren't using Tides to its full effect, or the DM isn't calling for Tides to trigger as often as possible.
Clicked to see if the video is uploaded and guess what! 👌
So you're saying Bad kitty is a good kitty? 😁
5:41 initial thoughts would be to use quick toss to throw a net as a bonus action
16:17 seeming you didn't go net here. A bit surprised to be honest
22:17 shocking grasp is verbal, but with subtle spell you could do this in the area of silence while grappling to block absorb elements, a reaction spell with no verbal components. Additionally shield, but this is also blocked by silence as its V/S
34:43 if only this was a wisdom build, then you could get away with observant just to read lips in silence.
38:56 if the mage is using a spellcasting focus instead of component pouch, then fear could be really good as the mage would drop their focus making them incapable of casting many material components spells
47:18 the enhanced movement was a very interesting solution to the counterspell problem, I would have thought that using your reaction for a subtle counterspell would work but obviously much more expensive than just being a fast boi
I wanted to avoid "to hit" rolls, so net was out.
@@TreantmonksTemple ah because of shield and mirror image. Makes sense
More than a 100 rounds of combat after our monk got stunning strike and it worked only twice, both because of bend luck. It's there when we really need it.
Very cool take on the mage slayer idea. I'm personally a fan of the traditional ancients hexadin with yuan ti or satyr thrown in for good measure, but new creative options are always good =).
I would rule for unsettling words that it wouldn’t work in a silence spell.
I say that cause it states “you can spin your words laced with magic”
How can you talk if you are in silence?
*subtly*
Great video, only thing I would have prioritized over other ASI would have been resilent WIS because having proficency in both wis and con for when something goes wrong and the mages actually manage to cast a big save and suck is important. Sure paladin is great but comes online late and would stack with proficency
A well prepared wizard would have some contingency prepared for any situation.
I had a very similar build based on your ideas, but what is your opinion on clockwork soul as a subclass? You can swap out the extra spells known to be any abjuration (or transmutation spell) a warlock, wizard, or sorcerer could cast. So you can pick up counterspell, dispell magic, shield, etc. for "free".
Plus, "Magical Guidance" at level 5 lets you reroll any failed ability check for a sorcerer point, be it a grapple check or a counterspell check.
That's nifty
I love clockwork soul. In this case I figured the improved chance for grapple was necessary for the tactic to have the best chance of success.
I think using Magical Guidance is an inspired route to take.
All he needs is a whip as a melee weapon. This way, his name becomes Kitty Whippins
And now, I'm tempted to make a Halflinh Chronurgist 2/Wild Magic Sorcerer build that lets you roll All of the dice
I picture Puss N Boots from Shrek 2! 😂
Would be interested in seeing how acrobatic you would have to get in multiclassing and drawing from usually banned book sources to make a mage slayer that was actually a martial (like most mage slayers that people like to build) while still avoiding using a monk... ;p
Straight classed bm ranger. Silence + expertise in athletics + extra attack. With beasts to be able to restrain enemies too
@@willwalsh7591 forgot rangers get silence too, nice
I'd usually prefer Lucky to Alert. The effective bonus is similar, but Lucky is more flexible, and it's bonus is biased toward where we need it: when we roll low. Although Alert does have a nice side-effect interaction with Blind Fighting, and if building this as an ambusher via Stealth expertise, I might prefer Alert anyways.
“Will the real mage slayer please standup, please standup.”
What they should focus on:
- break concentration
- mute
- immobilize
- give them a big ole' headache, like a killer migraine that would prevent them to cast anything right even if they're unparalized and unmuted
- biggest meta: have a magical object that nullifies all magic and casting of magic in a radius, alternatively have other meams to sever their connection to the weave or whatever else
These are all things you could do with poisons, basically drop them like you'd drop an escaped zoo animal with a dart gun.
You know how good optimized Mages are when Treantmonk almost gives up trying to stop them...
I’ve tried a build similar to this. It works great, so long as the enemy spell caster isn’t also a sorcerer 😂😅😭
I try to take advantage of being 65ft away, and boom, distance still counterspell 😭
A well timed distant spell is sometimes just as effective as a subtle spell!
I was the guy in the other Mage Hunter video who advocated the Shadow Monk as a *DECENT* Mage Slayer. While I argued there that a Shadow Monk was nowhere near as bad as you'd observed (you had some poor logic in some observations, and had forgotten about some features in others). But, I like this build because, unlike the Shadow Monk, you also have access to spells for utility, more skills, and a more effective grapple check. Also, you have Dispel Magic and Counterspell, which I like. Well done!
My only argument is that not all mages will fit all of the qualities of the "Our Prey" section, so for the most part you are preparing for an unlikelihood happening. I would argue that 90% of the mages you go up against will not be like Vecna or Lord Soth. This is why I also appreciate how your build fits in other combat and roleplay scenarios, as well.
Here is my slightly-not-as-good Shadow Monk build:
Firbolg (+2 Wisdom, +1 Strength). Assuming a standard array, I would give them 15 Strength, 14 Wisdom, and 13 Dexterity. I would spend my first ASI on Sentinel and the rest on STR and then WIS, allowing me to have 20 STR and 20 WIS by level 19. I also chose Athletics and Stealth as my proficiencies. This allows me to have great grappling checks while at the same time having a 19 Ki Save DC, which is as high a DC as one can have in D&D. Optionally, you can also use an ASI to get the Alert feat for better initiative.
So, imagine this:
The strategy can be used as early as level 5 and scales well into the latter stages of play. First turn, I rely on my Dexterity to get a higher initiative than the caster. This would be aided with the Alert feat. For my full action, I cast Silence on the caster. As a bonus action, I cast Hidden Step to turn invisible and gap-close as much as I can to the caster. I'm able to use Silence and Hidden Step in one turn because Hidden Step is a spell-like ability and does not count as a spell. You mention here that it would be easier indoors to cast Silence because of the nooks and crannies of something like a dungeon. Your words, not mine. Outside, I'd have to be at least 10th level to cast Silence without being Counterspelled before gap-closing with Hidden Step in the same turn. If I can't get close enough to Hidden Step, I'd use Shadow Step or Step of the Wind to gap-close. If I was close enough to the caster when the fight began, then I'm doing Flurry of Blows, with each blow doing a Stunning Strike.
On the caster's turn, they can't move because I have advantage on my opportunity attack (if I used Hidden Step as a Bonus Action) and Sentinel. I can even try to stun them with Stunning Strike, but I don't need it to keep them in the zone of Silence. On my next turn, I can do any combination of Stuns and/or Grapples as my Attack action and then use Flurry of Blows on my Bonus Action to get in as much stuns as I can to stun-lock or grapple-lock the caster every turn. At the very least, the Silence + Sentinel + Hidden Step/Shadow Step mobility would do very well as a way to keep Silence on the caster without needing to do much on the monk's full action.
This build doesn't have as many features to make my grapple hit 100% of the time like your build does, but as long as I have enough ki points, I can repeat the strategy until I'm able to get one stun and/or grapple in.
I think you could make something work with a ranger / fighter multi class going gloom stalker and rune knight. The gloom stalker gets bonuses to initiative and the rune knight on a hit can as a free action use the fire rune to restrain the target, action surge and cast silence then Bobs your uncle
What my main DM does for Wild Magic (WM) is for every sorcerer spell you cast that does not trigger WM, you increase the activation range by one. Once you trigger the ability, it resets back one. For example, sorcerer casts a spell, rolls a 17 on the die and does not get a 1 to activate WM. On the 2nd turn, they roll a 12 and does not get a 1 or 2. On the next turn, they roll a 2 which is would trigger WM. On the 4th turn they roll a 2, which is not a 1 to trigger WM.
Here's a hipster build if you ever play AL and end up getting an Instrument of the Bards early from CCC-GSP01 A Dragon's Breath.
Bard 6 College of Creation. Tabaxi, similar to TM's build. Longstrider, create a small Dancing Item, and... Crown of Madness?
Dancing Item travelling on your shoulder. Round begins. You get 50 movement, thanks to Longstrider and Dancing Item. Action: Cast Crown of Madness from further away than Counterspell range. Disadvantage on saving throw. Next, run in to 30 feet from the enemy mage (you have 100 feet, should be pretty easy), leave your Dancing Item there, and come back to your party. Bonus Action something useful, inspiration, whatever. Next, Dancing Item flies over the mage and Dodges. Enemy mage begins, has -10 movement from Dancing Item, and must use its action to melee attack with disadvantage the Dancing Item, which has 40 HP, 16 AC, and mage will probably attack with a dagger or something weak. Mage can now run away probably 20 feet (triggers AoO from Dancing Item), and maybe Misty Step (doesn't trigger AoO from Dancing Item), so about 50 feet away from the Dancing Item. End of turn, another saving throw with disadvantage. Back to the top of the round, bard maintains the spell, bonus actions Dancing Item to Dash if mage used Misty Step, or bonus actions something useful again if mage did not Misty Step away, and then Dancing item flies over Mage, either Dashing or Dodging again. Rinse and repeat, only no disadvantage if mage used Misty Step.
Hipster!
To be honest I think a Divine Soul Hexblade into Eloquence would do about 80% of these things, while being much better when not fighting mages. Not to mention you can just hose spellcasters with Hexblade’s Curse + Magic Missile irregardless of their AC (backed up by Counterspell), and burn all your empty high level slots that way. Heck you would have room to toss in Darkness + Devil’s Sight and partially shutdown enemy spellcasting too.
And if you want to get really fancy instead of 7 Paladin levels just take 2 Fighter levels for back to back Cursed Missiles. Most casters aren’t gonna survive that, and if they do almost anybody in the party can finish the target off same round.
I have a Creation Bard that animates statues so they can grapple mages while I cast silence. Then the psychic lance 😈
Tabaxi Paladin? Fucking legend!!
Just occurred to me that a fairly standard sorcadin would check most of these boxes given its burst damage, strong saves, and access to sorcerer spells. That would probably take 9 levels to fully come online, but it's not like paladins are *bad* at killing anything, spellcasters included, up until that point.
That said, I'm not surprised that you ended up with a multiclass build. It's difficult to find a single-classed character who checks all of the boxes, particularly if one of the boxes includes saving throws. Lots of characters who, from a thematic perspective, arguably *should* be good at killing spellcasters, such as Assassin rogues or Way of Shadow monks, check some of the boxes but are simply lacking in too many others.
Best thing is, if you go all the way to Level 20, you could get to 5th level Bard so Unsettling Words becomes even better. Plus, I think I'd rather put that 8th level in Sorcerer rather than Paladin just for that extra sorcery point so you can use your resources slightly more often before having to replenish with spell slots. But still, this is a good build, no doubt.
Recently I played a optimized Bowser, who was a wild magic grappler turtle with green flame blade, subtle, quickened and instead of fay touched skill expert for the expertise.
The first enemy was my real-life friend, the storm sorcerer, which I grappled and held his mouth, while burning him little bit. Next time I will consider silence!
Granted I'm 3 years late. But my guess, 8 minutes into this video, is something like a Rogue Bard multiclass. Proficiency and Expertise in a few skills, and a full caster spell list to gain the spells quickly before level 10. Since Treantmonk said Dispel, counterspell, and silence aren't on the same list, I can only think of Lore Bard at level 6 grabbing the spells it needs. I wonder if I'm right
All of the spells can be found on divine soul, because they can snag Silence from cleric.
It's so unfortunate my DM hardly ever picks/makes mage enemies in my current group. They make for some nice change of tactics.
Really cool concept! Out of curiosity, for locking down enemy mages, did you consider Sentinel? I feel like there is a lot less commitment/investment than going into the grapple space. You could go Variant Human Warlock 5 and be pretty well online (Fathomless - snags Silence, Counterspell, Sentinel, and Metamagic Adept). The commitment to grapple is heavy, and is only usable on Large or smaller casters. You could come online a little later and go Satyr/Yuan-ti Pureblood and be a little better in fights with more than one caster as well. Minor Illusion to block enemy spellcaster's vision of you, cast silence (quickened) on them free, and then walk up to them in melee - if they try to escape Sentinel bash em.
This build is built around the grapple tactic, but it certainly isn't the only way to go
Awwww yisss, my man TM delivers!
"prone grappled guy"
Im lost, why does grappling someone automatically make that enemy fall to the ground?
It doesn't, but you can shove prone a grappled target.
planning on taking down Halister- silence and shove/ grapple are the main plan- pushing him into a anti magic field. and of course, winning initiative.
So we need subtle spell to survive this !
I think the Yuan-Ti race is a must for a mage slayer, as it gives you that magic resistance. If you the AC of an Armor Artificer it makes it really hard for the mage to hit you at all. Armor artificers also make truly excellent grapplers. So start with Artificer-4. Next, I want to do damage once I have someone grappled, so I go Hexblade-2 for the next two levels for Eldritch Blast and take the Crossbow Expert so I can use EB while within 5' (i.e. grappling and assuming one hand free). Hexblade also gives Shield making AC way better. Next switch to Divine Soul Sorcerer-6 then finish in Artificer. You're good at grappling, can do damage, and have the sorcerer/cleric spells -- Counterspell, Silience, Dispell Magic, etc.
The Wild magic surges can happen a lot of the time depending on the DM. The ability Tides of Chaos gives the power to the DM of actually having a wild magic surge any time the sorcerer casts a levelled spell regardless of rolling a 1 on the d20 once the tides of chaos advantage has been used, which also refreshes the ability, giving the sorcerer the chance to use it again, etc. This makes it that a DM and a party that enjoy the wild magic surge can actually have plenty of surges. There is no need to homebrew this part of the wild magic sorcerer IMO, and with a cooperative DM that actually isn't scared of the wild magic surge, this sorcerer is actually quite good and probably one of the most fun classes out there.
Honestly, before playing the class in the first place, I'd recommend actually speaking with the DM about this, as it can greatly change the experience of the player and party involved in a game with a wild magic sorcerer. There was a oneshot I had where I played a wild magic sorcerer and took the advantage as much as I could and the DM then made me roll on the wild magic table for nearly all spells I tossed, it was hilarious and one of the most fun I ever had when playing.
I agree that so many so called Mage Slayer builds were addressing the wrong set of problems. Treantmonk’s list of the six he believed needed addressing hit the mark. I don’t think I necessarily had this list in mind but had been adding aspects of them into one of my favorite character builds that I have been modifying as new material comes out. It never included grappling since Strength was something hard to build into a good Mage Slayer.
Now if there were a way to do a grapple using Acrobatics to apply so that Dexterity builds could give it a try then I think most Slayers build would have naturally evolved along these lines. I am imagining MMA grapplers they seem to be using speed and agility more than brute strength. But leave it to Treantmonk to squeeze out the right abilities to deliver the goods.
My own personal build tried to be very good at 5 of the 6 excluding the grapple. I figure of the things on the list the grappling would definitely be one thing that could be pushed off to a Fighter in the party.
I viewed the mage slaying more in the realm of higher level mages say past 13th level. Lower than that any standard party just clobbers a mage and a few minions with action economy alone.
Great build though. Hate to be a single caster running afoul of Bad Kitty.
I was wondering what you were going to come up with another RUclipsr Drow Bard has a unconventional valor bard build that specializes in grappling that might work good
Would this not work better as just a sorcadin without bard? Divine Soul Sorc can pick up Silence and Counterspell from a single spell list on top of things like spiritual weapon, the Sorcadin is a generally fantastic build that benefits from strength, and with extra attack you can make multiple grapple attempts. That being said, I do feel like the build design works a LOT better for two players going back to back (like a cleric and barbarian) rather than trying to fit the whole suite on one.
There's also just something incredibly funny about a frothing, raging barbarian beating the crap out of a screaming, panicking wizard while they both look like a silent film to everyone else.
I think I found a problem with your build: One of the things you are looking for is to get tons of initiative roll bonuses, right? Well, the jack of all trades initiative bonus and the oath of the watchers aura of the sentinel bonus don't stack because "Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die roll or other number more than once". I realise that you are probably aware and that your reasoning for the selection might be for paladin for the better initiative and bard more for for silence and expertise.
However!
What would you say to taking oath of conquest instead of watchers to get Armor of Agathys instead of the initiative buff? You still get jack of all trades half proficiency bump to initiative and that spell is soo good. The Conquest speed-0-to-frightened-creatures combined with if we take fear as our sorcerer 7 spell allows us to fear-"stun" a bunch of enemies. It is perhaps moving away a bit from the optimised concept of the build, but could make for a stronger and more versatile character overall?
I agree with your assessment. This answers why D&D Beyond was not adding jack of all trades to initiative at high levels.
I've always thought a wizard slayer was just a wizard and with globe of invulnerability up
I wonder how a divine soul sorcerer could work, if they could use Animate Dead and have their zombies make multiple grapples.
I like some of the Earthen Grasp ideas but that only deals with the movement and without Silence does not do much to hinder a Mage. So would require a second caster and then we are dealing with Mage Slayers not a Mage Slayer. So this character build has the ability to solo Mage Slay which is an important distinction.
Interesting and (obviously, once you look at the finished product) effective build. My only critique would be that, if you want the build to be primarily a spellcaster, it might be better to concentrate more on the full caster classes (probably bard for the extra hit points, though there's something attractive about more sorcery points as well) and less on paladin. Even a couple of extra levels in sorcerer would give you some fifth-level spells, or you could take one extra level in each full caster class and get two more ability increases/feats rather than just one along with two levels' worth of spell slots ... and still have a level 6 paladin. Or if you wanted to forego the saving throw bonuses (I'm not sure I would), you could get up to 6th-level sorcerer spells or 4th-level bard spells, plus the College of Eloquence 6th-level features, which are pretty awesome as far as "being useful in situations other than being-attacked-by-spellcasters" goes. ;)
Most DM's I know that would go to the trouble of making a mage boss would already be giving it subtle spell to deal with the counterspell problem. How does this build fare as a mage hunter when things go wrong?
If the enemy mage is built to deal with this build, it's not going to be able to do its thing.
Wildemount is homebrew according to all DM's I have played with. Disparity in wording, powerlevel and mechanics of the classes and stuff created in the campaign setting compared to most official content.
Commenting for the algorithm because I can't watch right this second but I'm going to
For the Sorcerer Tides of Chaos ability, There is no role of 1 required. The DM decides after you cast a Sorcerer spell if s/he wants you to roll on the Wild Magic Surge table. Once you make that roll you regain the Tides of Chaos ability. It is this reliance on a DM which is the reason I have only played a Wild Sorcerer once. The DM was a a$$ and had me roll on every non-cantrip sorcerer spell I rolled except when I wanted to roll, usually in desperation. . .
needing to roll every time you cast is part of the core class, you need to roll a 1 to surge though so only 5% chance
how it is supposed to work is that you use tides of chaos to grant yourself advantage, then you cast a spell and automatically surge, then get tides of chaos back so basically permanent advantage but risk rolling on the surge table