You know, I always assumed that they just depicted German officers in movies as having scars because it makes him look more like the bad guy, but they didn’t always explain why they had them in real life. Learning that there was actually a legitimate dueling reason for the scars was actually pretty cool! learn something new every day!
some people often forget that some of the fictions (if not all) are always inspired by reality in an exaggerated way thats why i dont agree with the quote "reality is often dissapointing" (i know its a meme but still)
One of my friends got a fencing scar at university - in the UK in the '00s. We decided to recreate the fish slapping dance from Monty Python as a duel, and he got cut on the face from a dorsal fin. Still, he can legitimately claim to the girls in the pub that it's a duelling scar
I've got a small scar near my eye from falling at work. The story I've gone with is "God decided to throw the planet at me, and that's what's left from it" lol
As a child, my father had a bike accident that left him with a marked scar on his face. When studying medecine he found himself to be respected by many others -and especially old doctors- because they thought he got the scars through Mensur.
I do the same with the scar I got on my back. Had two moles removed that were spaced apart, doc gott em both with one go and I got a 5 inch long scar that looks like I got stabbed.
You earned a like for the fact this isn't overextenuating the topic to the boredom of the viewers, it gets to the point, with facts, backs up the information with some citetation and then ends. Respect.
My ‘sports injury’ is from fencing. Blew a calf muscle because I did NOT stretch before a bout. When asked why I was limping, I replied “got hurt in a sword fight!’
You are my brother in pain. You know that bursa sac between your ribs and shoulder blade? I smashed the carp out of mine sparring kenjitsu. (For those who care, it was from leaning with a diagonal cut, more like a Zornhaw than a kesagiri.) Won the match, but am still dealing with the injury.
As a retired fencing coach, I can believe that happening, but that's nothing to my sword injury! Back in the 60's I was a young and dare I say, a very reckless fencer , fencing with Epee's with no jacket on! I ran onto the blade and it stuck in the joint of my arm, going in my arm a bit! Blood everywhere as it hit a main vein, whisked off to hospital in an ambulance, and you know what hurt even more? The tetanus injection in my arse! Couldn't sit on it for a week!
@Beautiful Music - Having had a tetanus shot in my arse, I can believe that happening, but that's nothing compared to my tetanus injury! Back in the early 2000s, I was demolishing a barn with two other workers, and we were almost done for the day, but there was one upright post still standing and a beam connected to it that had the other end on the ground. We decided to make sure everything was flat before leaving for the day, and one of my coworkers took a swing at the beam/post while I was at the far end. The beam came free from that post, but the end that I was on was still connected to another board, and it kicked up in the air before coming apart and falling on top of me. I managed to hit the board with my left arm as it was falling, which actually saved my nipple. The board had come loose with three nasty, rusted nails in it, and they raked down my chest, miraculously skipping over my nipple. I have a scar above and below the nipple, as well as on either side, but the nipple is fine. I used to tell people that I got attacked by a bear. The tetanus shot in my arse hurt like hell, but you know what hurt worse? My ego and my left arm! Arm in a cast for weeks and ego in a casket for life!
Excellent video. It never occurred to me that was the reason for the scars on many of the German officers. I thought it was from war wounds from WW1. But that wouldn’t make sense for younger officers who didn’t serve in WW1.
@@MicTheOni Its racist american film makers trying to make them look evil! Th epeople that lets blacks vote, marry whites, go to school! unlike the USA! 🤦♂🤣
There was always 1919-21 period and fights with communists. Those were far more serious than we know today. A lot of people died or were murdered and many ended up in hospitals.
By the time of WW2, a lot of German officer no longer have only a mensur scar. The interwar era saw German Weimar military fighting against various Communist and Socialist organization. There were much civil war being fought in Germany that some officers only have a scar from those wars and not a single one from Mensur. As a sidenote: When Nazi party tried to ban Mensur, some German aristrocrat try to defend it by calling Hitler a coward for "not having a stomach to suffer scars". Hitler then reply by showing that man his Iron Cross First Class. Which contrary to most casual historian who claimed that he gave it to himself when became the Führer, he LEGITIMATELY earned it for his bravery during the Great War by being a runner for his company.
I am German. My Grandfather (Wehrmacht Officer) had a scar from Mensur. He survived the eastern front and a couple of years as a POW in Russia. He was very proud of his scar, but sometimes complained that he would have prefered it to be "a little lower, and more to the right". He told me as a kid that one day i will have one too (nope, lol).
@@shawnkillrow why would they deny that? They had drafts, almost everyone had a family that were soldiers during Third Reich, kinda like everyone in Ukraine has (great) grandparents in Soviet army, however embarrassing it is now. At least I know my grandpas rotted in trenches russians put them into and didn't get to rape all over Europe like actual frontline commie troops.
@@shawnkillrow I am not sure if what you are trying to write is english and if i understand you correctly and how many Germans you know to claim that and / or to verify my response...but around when the first genereation after the war was grown up. So i would say around 1965.
My art teacher back in the early 2000's had those too. My father, who had known him all the way back when both were attending university, told me of the practice and why he had such gruesome scars in his face. Edit: On my fathers funeral, his old frat members (he was a doctor) attended it all with their own sword.
My great-grandfather had many scars on his face, he always told the story to my dad that when he was captured people thought he was a relative of a wealthy officer but he said that he was just bad at fencing
A little correction: A Mensur usually doesn't end with first blood, it ends either after a certain number of blows, or when a cut is deemed dangerous by the doctor on site. This is called "Abfuhr", and it typically happens when two cuts are crossed, a cheek is pierced, or a piece of skin is severed (like it happened to me, for instance); however, the rules vary regionally.
@@hanspepigummischas Na ja, solange Boxen, Muay Thai, MMA, Krav Maga etc. gesellschaftlich akzeptiert sind, sehe ich nicht ein, was an einer Mensur so schlimm sein soll. Ein Schnitt in der Kopfhaut heilt schneller als eine gebrochene Nase.
Almost like the leader of said group of nazis was not a member of the aristocracy and higher classes himself, and so felt belittled by all those in his closest circles who were... But thats just me guessing (its also directly stated in the video)
I myself am a member of a German fraternity that is obliged to fence. In fact, the frequency of scars has decreased, but more because of the way fencing is done today. The technique is a little more "advanced" and the obligatory hitting area in most German fraternities is much higher up on the head, which makes defence much easier. However, I know some people who are still scarred today, it's not entirely uncommon. The video you showed when you talked about safety precautions is complete nonsense, though. The Mensur takes place under the same safety precautions as back then and the helmets you showed are only worn for training purposes. So the possibility of being hit sharply is still there and is what makes the mensur in itself. Apart from that, your video was amazingly accurate.
@@PinkPanther1402 The German fraternity system is obviously not for everyone. But if you're in the right one, you can have a massive amount of fun. Especially when the people in the fraternity become your best buddies, "putting yourself out there for the fraternity" is very different from just doing it to pick up a cheap room, for example. Besides, as I said, it's not as if hits and scars happen regularly.
@@hansschneidig5240 Maybe you're right. Might be I was in the wrong one. I loved the concept of this, but had a problem with the hierarchies and authoritarian style of this
@@jerryjeromehawkins1712 “General Burkhalter (Leon Askin) had a scar on his face from an old duel. But it wasn't a fake scar just for the show. Leon actually got his scar from being beaten up by the SS just for being Jewish. His birth name was originally Leo Aschkenasy.” - IMDb
@@JohnnyJohnsonEsq I'm from Heidelberg, Germany. We still have Burschenschaften where the Mensur is compulsory. You can't join without practicing it. While the head is much better protected today, there are still bloody duels. But in contrast to the past, they try to keep the scar as small as possible. With instant medical care and aftercare. I was attacked with a knife right under the eye at 16. I needed 5/6 stitches. I didn't use any anti-scar creme, which the court decided my attacker had to pay for. But you still don't see much. The Austrian, which still refuse the idea of an _"Austrian nation"_ and still take pride in being Germans. Which is a source for trouble in today's Austria. Who's trying to build a new national identity, separate from the German, after WWII. Ironic since Austrian/the Habsburgers has been the greatest German power for hundreds of years. The Austrian Burschenschaften are also still part of the largest head organization of German Burschenschaften and are some of the most traditional ones. Probably to _"prove their "germaness"._
This still happens! I met a few guys who were fraternity members in Hamburg when i was there during my study abroad, and visited their frat house where they had practice rooms for this exact thing. The swords are razor-sharp! One day my frat member friend came into class with a huge scar on his face, apparently he had done one of these fencing fights with a guy from another frat who disrespected him. They take it super seriously and the fight goes on until the doctor supervising calls it off because it is a sign of weakness to give up during the fight. Edit - the improvements to safety head-gear weren't the case at the place i saw. They just wore goggles that cover the eyes and ears, leaving the forehead and cheeks exposed.
I don't know if it's overall looked down on, but I find this really cool. Like it takes guts to do this thing, yet with protections to certain areas in place, it should be relatively safe and shouldn't end up inhibiting normal functions except for rare occurances.
@@daladirn5119 Ususally those groups that still do this have Nazi-sympathizing views and more often than not have found to for example still sing Nazi-voksongs etc. That's why they have a really bad rep (and honestly, rightfully so) because you have to be okay with such views in Germany and Austria to be part of such a group, which considering the history and how much physical evidence we have of the atrocities of the Nazis is insane imo.
@@frozenyogurth That's kinda interesting, considering that this is a pre-nazi tradition which has been outlawed during nazi time. Though oftentimes traditions which do not have roots in one ideology can be misinterpreted through the times, so I do see how your statement could be true, but overall, I haven't found mentions that this would be the case. From what I've read, it even grew and expanded into other nations like Austria, Switzerland or even Poland, so even though in some cases, Nazi ideologists could be practicing it, I don't see the premise for a significant part of the practitioners to be of nazi ideology. Not that I don't believe you, but multiple sources (even if they are just an eyewitness), are better than just one. I would love to hear how other Germans view this sport as well, because the sources on why this sport is still prevalent in Germany are very scarce
Addition: Some people have put a horse hair in the open wound. When the wound closed after a short time, the hair was torn out to open the scar again. This way the scar became more imposing.
@@marcusk2905 I hate it when my history degree is boiled down to "you read that on reddit didn't you", its really a self report thats where the commenter gets THEIR info from
We talked about this in fencing club. The students would sometimes rub salt in the wound to make it scar more, or cauterize them. It was an old aristocratic tradition that stayed in some form in the fencing world.
As I understand it, they'd rub ash in or, for longer cuts, lay a horse hair in the wound to keep it irritated so it wouldn't heal cleanly. We talked about this as well in my fencing club and a could of us gave it a try one day in the fullness of idiotic youth. Can't say the small scar it gave me ever won me any favors, but a beard hides it well enough.
These are more or less just myths though. Most bad scars were most likely due to bad doctors. There are no actual sources for this and time witnesses don't confirm it. There were cases where people would use horse hair but this was for medical reasons. Then there was the so-called Schmiss-Ziehen which translates to scar-pulling. This hindered the healing process but was not commonly practiced. Most students had many and deep scars because they were fencing so much, with 20 or so duels a semester being the norm. Nowadays a student of a fencing fraternity might barely fence three times in his university time with more than three times being the outlier.
The more modern video you showed in the end is of course only of training. The protective equipement of a Mensur today consists of the Mensurschläger itself with the large basket (Korbschläger), although in a part of Germany, a lighter kind of Schläger with a sheet metal handguard called Glockenschläger is used instead. The fencing hand is also protected by a heavy leather glove with kevlar or chain mail inserts. The arm is protect by an armgaurd of similar material up to the shoulder, and the body is protected by a chain mail shirt. The neck is covered by special made wrappings similar to the arm, so there is no risk of deadly injuries. It is also made sure that there are no gaps. Finally, the eyes are protected by a special kind of metal glasses called Mensurbrille. So of course there is still a chance for strikes to the head or face. There is always one or two doctors, an impartial and a second and several assistants for each side present. A Mensur isn't always over when one side gets hit. There is always a fixed number of strikes in each round and a fixed number of rounds, although it may end early when one side shows fear as in crying out or stepping back etc., or when one side is too badly hit. The first and sometimes second Mensur that members do is more regulated in the number of rounds or also strikes, and the types of strikes and techniques that are allowed, but these rules vary from region to region. Most members don't desire scars as it rather shows that your opponent was the better fencer. There is no victor in a Mensur. A Mensur is always done between members of different fraternities. The fraternity brothers of each side decide if the performance in technique and bravery was sufficient. In fraternities where a certain number of Mensuren is obligatory, this leads to the member having to repeat that Mensur. Mensuren aren't done because of insults or anything like that anymore, but just to uphold traditions and for sport and maybe a test of bravery. It is also a chance to do something special that isn't done by that many people anymore.
es wird schon auch auf ehre gefordert. nicht so häufig üblich. die Korporationen mussten Adenauer versprechen, das zu keinen Mensuren mit duelcharakter kommt. damit sie wieder zugelassen werden. das ist nur nicht so öffentlich bekannt. gerade die steileren baltischen Verbindungen oder auch süddeutsche Verbindungen speziell der DB haben da einiges. es sind auch nicht nur so die Traditionen. die Mensur wird gepaukt um zu prüfen ob jemand bereit ist, auch mit haut und haar einzustehen. nicht überall wird mit wangenleder und mensurbrille gepaukt. es ist also sehr wohl eine Mutprobe. die Mensuren werden beurteilt ob jemand "schleppt" oder wegzugt. klar wird da ein kleines Geheimnis drum gemacht. wenn die potentiellen Füxe das gleich wüssten, würden sie vielleicht doch lieber anderswo eine Bude suchen. Soldaten hitlers wollten besonders die Buschis sein, während sich die Corps, cv und kv in Selbstauflösung flüchteten um dann doch im nationalsozialistischen Studentenbund weiterzumachen. die Lücke in den Geschichtsbüchern verlaufen vieler Korporationen zu dieser zeit ist ja immer bezeichnet. also...., mann sollte nicht so tun als ob das alles so ganz harmlos ist. deutsche Korporationen haben ihren Anteil an der jüngeren deutschen Geschichte. dass war keine guter. die liberten zu brünn in Aachen haben nicht umsonst jahrelang eine karte Deutschlands in den grenzen von annodunn zu hängen. ich würde nicht behaupten das alle Korporationen nazis sind. ich hatte viele interessante Gespräche, Diskussionen als Kritiker auf Häusern. mir ist immer mit größtem Respekt begegnet worden.
Are Germans unable to invent a goddamn fencing helmet like used in Kendo or European Fencing? it takes care of facial cuts and doesn't have goofy glasses.
I remember reading in Theodore Roosevelt's biography (written by Edmund Morris), that in his youth he was staying with a family in Dresden. Two sons of that family studied at the University of Leipsic and were members of a dueling corps. One, a famous swordsman, was called Der Rothe Herzog (the Red Duke), and the other was nicknamed Herr Nasehorn (Sir Rhinoceros) because the tip of his nose had been cut off in a duel and sewn on again.
As someone used to seeing Olympic fencing and HEMA, seeing this form of fencing is very interesting. If the fencers weren't standing still, this would look like some sort of old Hollywood movie type fencing where the fencers were clearly aiming at each other's swords and not each other. Regardless, this was definitely not how I imagined that these duels were actually fought. I've known about this dueling tradition for a long time now but I had always thought that they were regular style duels with the entire body being a valid target and a lot of back and forth.
Ya I was thinking the same. Makes me wonder if maybe some old Hollywood movies had fencing scenes informed by this style, which is why they look so bad to modern fencers.
They weren't really fencing. They were standing in a formal setting and deliberately allowing themselves to be struck in the face with a rapier or sabre. As far as I'm concerned, because it wasn't acquired during a duel to the death it's just a fake "dueling scar. May as well have had it done as a surgical procedure. A pointless scar fraudulently acquired. Allowing yourself to be hit in the face by a sword is not bravery. It's stupidity. A permanent mark proving you as an imbecile. Now we know why the Nazi regime was so stupid. It was literally run by imbeciles.
Keep the purpose of the thing in mind! NOBODY needs a corpse, damnit. They boiled down "fencing" to a moderate risk fun activity. Which it could not be, if there was even a chance to stab the oponent. When I looked at the sport 30 years ago, we 'd be supposed to stand 1 weapon length shoulder from shoulder, height differences equalled out by putting the shorter guy on pallets. We'd do rounds of 4 or 6 strikes and have fully armored seconds with blunt blades ready to go in, to make sure things go their ritualized way. The video combines inaccurate movie footage with told BS. Its conventional (no longer legal) duells that might end at first blood. Academic fencing goes through the planned amount of rounds, unless the always present MD decides that it has to stop. FTR: I neither watched nor participated in a mensur. I have no clue when duelling among academics ended. 19th century? Reglementations for light or heavy saber duells can still be read, pistols might have been preserved. Mensur fencing is usually against a suitable oponent provided by a different fraternity. The ones I looked at demanded between 2 and maybe 6 mandatory fights. - Of course one could bump into somebody and get dissolving drama 1:1 later or 3 : 3, if its tide was high enough, arranged.
It's literally not even a "sport" at all, just bloody hazing and ritual scarification elevated to high social fashion. Once it became basically obligatory to graduate with scars (or else be thought a coward), cadets started slicing up their own faces with razor blades or even paying doctors to scar up their faces under chloroform anesthesia.
Very nice video! I'm member in a student Fraternity here in Germany and fenced five mensur. Calling them duels is strictly prohibited, since according to german Lawduels are prohibited. It's considered a sporting event where both sides agree to violence. Basically like a boxing match. The word "mensur" derives from "measure" as in distance between the Paukanten (the fencing guys). It's strictly prohibited to move anything but your arm during fencing. If you move anything else or even flinch, then youre instantly disqualified and have to repeat the mensur to restore your wothiness as a fencer. Every City has its own nuances to the rules but they're all similar. The clips from "Hans Westmar" are quite accurate whit the speed and technique.
Then what's the point? Just to show off who has bigger balls doing something inpractical but dangerous? Would be easier to throw bricks up and wait who flinches first.
@@steppebro9275 If your technique is good then you won't get hit. Every sport is impractical and dangerous. I also ride motorcycles that's even more dangerous and even more impractical 🤯
Friend of mine has a big scar in his face not due to mensur but he fell into glasshards as a baby. when he wanted to join a student union (Burschenschaft) at first glance they thought he was a member of another union calling for satisfaction. He had to explain that he was new and non of their members was in trouble. In some citys, areas people do care about a "schmiss"
Just found your channel and man, you have given me so many movies to watch, the fact you always put the title in the clips is just about the best thing ever, thanks for taking the time to do it and your videos are pretty awesome as well.
Thank you for sharing. I admire how you have the gift of condensing historically significant information in an "entertaining", yet vitally important way.
Great video Johnny! I am an active member in a fencing fraternity and you did a pretty good job explaining the Mensur. However, it is difficult to find videos online depicting the Mensur accurately. During a real Mensur, the "Paukant" (Fencer) is not allowed to say anything. Most importantly, you are not allowed to flinch, even if you cannot block the oncoming blow. The Paukant has to stand his ground and "take the hit". Receiving the hit during the duel does not hurt that much, as you are full of Adrenaline. The stitching of the Schmiss immediatley after the Mensur if usually quite painful, as there are no anesthetics and the adrenaline starts to wear off :) Cheers!
@@Not_From_Hollandno, i do not know who he is. Tbh he looks more like a character out of a movie and the scar on his cheek looks not like a typical schmiss. Additionally, most scars are inflicted upon the left side of the head, as most fencers are right handed
Today the perception of scars in fraternitys shifted. If you have one it just shows that you didn't train enough. I fought two Mensuren myself and I am just as proud that I never received a hit, as they were proud to wear scars back then.
funny how idiots will always find ways to be proud of their shortcomings. in highschool girls would brag about getting effed by an 18+ year old. congratz to them for doing the leg work of the pedo, they didn't even have to give them candy the girls did it for free, staring with 14, by 17 most weren't virgins. I didn't partake until I was a legal adult and was ostracized for it. I wonder which practice had the higher death rate.
Train for what? Standing still and attacking a stillstanding opponent with a whimsy blade is hardly an aadvanced skill nor is it a particularly impressive one. Seems to me this "fencing" is practiced for the sake of inflating ego in otherwise frail and privileged children
28 Mensuren - and I had the great grandson of him on guard duty once. Because he presented himself as piece of privileged POS I let him have dead man’s hour shift.
As a friend who was heavily marked with facial scars and was quite intimidating, once said to me (Before I got to know him well,) "Never be afraid of a man with a scar on his face, be more afraid of the man who put it there"
Meh, this quote is used in many different forms. I remember seeing on a TV show or a movie once someone buying some kind of warrior or gladiator of some sort who was hyped up from all His battle scars and the person says "I don't want that guy, I want the guy who did that to him". It's just a funny type of quote that gets your thinking but it doesn't really have any basis... You could be born with the scars, you could've been glassed in a night out in the pub, maybe been in a car crash etc doesn't mean cos you have a scar on your face your some crazy tough menacing fighter
At least the people who left the Thumbs up(thank you) seem to understand my comment which is more than the 3 thick £ucks who left these stupid comments.
Like many others here, I knew a bit about duelling scars, but this is way more than I ever heard of, or even seen! Thank you Johnny it's brilliant. Well thought through and presented, you win a cookie lol
I have a scar on my chin from a mugger's knife. Don't worry, the mugger missed the mark (my neck) and it was the only swing he got. Poor guy never did walk again. So I guess I got me one of them scars! Too bad my beard covers it up.
Respect to you both...50% of my body is covered in knife scars,I have PTSD, bad hips, dodgy knees, ,healed fractures, apart from that I,m OK, ...peace and love from the wirral peninsula,bounded by the mersey and the Dee and the Irish sea...geography and rhyme ❤❤😊😊
I am actually in a German fraternity and did this in my active time. Few comments: 1) no need to talk in past tense, it’s still thing 2) there is no screaming and dodging, your frat will remove you immediately from the ground. You are bringing dishonor to their colors and your name and have to do another duel at a later point of time to clean the shame. 3) scars are only important to very few people nowadays. I don’t have scars and inflicted few minor wounds, but my opponents didn’t do anything to make them worse 4) no beer and cigarette tastes better than the one after the fight
This is actually still practiced in some "corps", albeit with many safety precautions. Mark Twain describes it beautifully and, of course, in a very fun way in "A Tramp Abroad".
There are way more fraternities than just the Corps that still practive academic fencing. The safety precautions are a bit more advanced, but the areas which can be hit during Mensur are still more or less the same as a hundred years ago and depending on the rule in the according city.
I had never heard of the film, Royal Flash until I watched this video so I went and watched it for the first time. It's a real hidden gem. British humor and action. It's really great. Thanks for making me aware of it.
Nice, well researched! I'm a member of a fencing fraternity, i even have a big Schmiss on my cheek. It's always nice to see good, non-biased content on the topic
@@JohnnyJohnsonEsq It is ridiculous and utterly insane, but also a massive adrenaline kick and i love it! It also gives me the option to challenge other frat boys that i can't stand. There are a lot of assholes in the community and having the option to rearrange their face in a perfectly legal way is incredibly satisfying
Nice explanation. Being in a Burschenschaft and having several Mensur-Scars myself, I can underline most of the things that were said. Only the video samples out of movies don‘t reflect the fencing style very well.
well done video. My Father and grandfather were in Fraternities but only my dad was in a "fighting fraternity". Fun fact sometimes they would put a horse hair in the wound to make sure it wouldnt heal quickly if the cut was only minor to make sure they got a good scar
"Fun fact sometimes they would put a horse hair in the wound to make sure it wouldnt heal quickly if the cut was only minor to make sure they got a good scar" CRAWWWWLING IN MY SKIIIIN
The sport of 2 guys with real swords cutting each other in the face looks so bad ass. Gotta bring that sport back alot of people would pay to watch that in modern times.
This is awesome I’ve been to German college towns and another right of passage was going to their local school prison where they would paint silhouettes of themselves and friends on the prison walls. They’d use a lamp to create light for the shadow and the silhouettes of a group would be layered/tiled together with their names
@@paulmares9815 This dates back to the old medieval and up to late 19th centuries. If you were a student back then, you would enter a separate "social" class and fall under the jurisdiction of your university and not the jurisdiction of you local lord or city. That's why universitys had their own trials, jail cells, etc. That's also why students were allowed to carry swords and the mere citizen was not.
@@paulmares9815 Yeah, Students used to have their own jurisdiction. The Tradition of the Silhouettes or ''Scherenschnitt'' still exists with german fraternities. Once you become a Member or ''Bursche'' your Silhouette will be put on a wall with all of the others who have been members of the fraternity, for some this will reach back two hundred years and they'll have thousands of pictures on that wall.
@@paulmares9815 It was the Karzer (latin carcer) for short-tern punishment for nonsense. We had one in my school as well, which was built in the early 19th century. Of course only in use long ago, until the very early 1930s (not during the Nazi time and afterwards).
Well, 55 years old and today I can say, I've known about this. Always seen the scars but never thought that this would be the reason behind it! thanks for the video and information
My German grandfather was in one of these duelling student fraternities. I remember going to a few of their "old boys'" social evenings. No women allowed and heavy drinking was expected. I also had 2 German work colleagues with the typical scar across their face. These fraternities though were not really for enjoying oneself although that was part of it. They were meant to support new students, help them find digs and be there for them if they get into trouble, fr instance with the police. And later it was a big bonus if the boss of the company you want to work for was a fraternity "old boy". He would make sure you didn't just get a job but also that you climbed the company hierarchy speedily.
@@MezzoForte4 Yep, you're right. But it's like that all around the world in some form or other. You a member of the wrong political party? Sorry no job here for you. You not a member of our club? Sorry no job here for you. It's an open secret everywhere that you have to be in with the right people to get into high positions.
Here's one thing I really liked about this video: quick, to the point, and what the current situation is. All within 5 minutes and not some nonsense 20 minute video
very good :). as a german i already was familiar with the topic but it took me by surprise to see someone cover the topic and get it right on top of it. great work.
When my dad was in university in the 70s or 80s here in germany (i cant remember the exact year) there where people who would participate in these duels as well. He never participated in them but he saw plenty of people with scars like that so now finding out that this was a more wide spread thing its quite an interesting feeling for me.
In your video, it comes across as if Mensures are a part of the past. In fact, Mensures are still fought in German-speaking countries today. The risk of injury is still quite high today and I know many students with scars on their faces. In the past, however, students made sure that the scars deliberately become severely inflamed so they are more visible. This is rarely the case today.
If you are in a fraternity yes, I believe that you know a few people which are doing mensures. But overall in Germany students in fraterneties, corps, ect. are the absolute minority. I heard a number about 1%(?) of overall students are members? In a few cities they are quite visible but still few and in nearly ten years I have seen students with smite once or twice.
@@ML-ii8gt Yes, that's right. However, it was also in the 18th and 19th. Century exclusively students who have fought for Mensuren. So even then it was only a small group of people who fought Mensuren. The small percentage nowadays comes from the fact that Mensuren are only held in the cities with old universities. For example, I studied in Göttingen. There, the number of male students in fencing fraternities is higher. I estimate about 5-10%.
It is stated at the end of the video that Mensures are still going on, but with a lot more care and protection - but isn't doing it without the chance of scars (at least in choice locations like that jaw or cheeks) kind of defeating the purpose? I know that Schmisse can have bad connotations for people nowadays, so perhaps that is why.
I saw a video clip of this style of sword fighting years ago and have been casually looking for details on it for a long time. Thanks for creating this!
Very interesting. Thank you very much. How nice and unusual to find a video about German traditions or culture without spiteful or obnoxious comments. Regards
The schmiss (or dueling scar) was a sign of nobility, and of bravery. They got those scars from fencing, the most well known figure to wear those scars, in my opinion, was Lieutenant Colonel Otto Skorzeny. Fictionally, Leon Askin's General Burkhalter character from Hogan's Heroes wore those scars as well.
I enjoyed the use of the significant clips from "Royal Flash". "The Flashman papers" are some of my favorite books, and I was often surprised at the amount of historical facts were written alongside the extravagant fiction of the stories.
Wow! Actual legitimate history that doesn’t just focus on the nazi party! Just from this short video, I learned plenty of interesting information! You’ve definitely earned an upvote!
dont trust him. as a descendent of national socialists i can verify this channel deletes comments to prevent any actual debate on the propoganda he spews.
This practice did not only take place in Austria or Germany. Fraternities and their customs spread everywhere where the ruling class consisted mostly of Germans. This also includes Latvia and Estonia. Although back then these two countries were part of the Russian Empire, the local ruling class consisted mostly of Baltic Germans. Also, the two main universities in the region, the University of Tartu (Dorpat) and Riga Polytechnical Institute, were mostly German and the students organized themselves into fraternities.
We didnt done so with Denmark after the German-Danish War since it would had been to bothersome to have to deal with the Language Barrier. But regarding the Netherlands? it would make quite a lot of Sense(at least for Germany^^) though, Culture wise we are close enough and Language wise even more so, I mean if you dont happen to be a very knowlegable Linguistic giga Expert, then Dutch and Platt Deutsch will litterally be the same Language to you. See you at youre Beaches next Summer ;D
Having founded and ran a fencing club in college, I remember having to clear up some misconceptions to some of the non-American students that we were not a Mensur club. It's always a bit of a culture shock to find that Olympic fencing is not the most well known type of fencing in every part of the world.
This video is brilliant, had no idea about this, and was expecting it to be some hollywood trope (scarred soldier = badguy, hansome-fresh faced guy=goodies) or some such. Amazing!
I am from Germany Bavaria i am 26 years old and the fraternitys here still do this, i know a couple of people around my age who have scars like this...there are different types of fencing with more protection, or less protection. The city i was Born in "Erlangen" is quite famous in the fraternity Community, because the fraternities here still fence without much protection...
My dad actually was in one of those kinds of fraternities where they had to fence (I'm german). He managed to win all his matches so he got out of it with no scars, but he knew a bunch of people whk did have them. Interestingly, the equipment didnt really change much until the 90s at least, people were still wearing the same type of steel goggles shown in the video
Die Stahlbrillen werden auch heute noch verwendet. Alles was sich geändert hat mit der Moderne, ist, dass die Seide in den Halskrägen (manchmal) durch Kevlar ersetzt wird.
@@nickkohlmann ich bin in einer Verbindung in Bonn, hier haben wir um die 30, einige pflichtschlagend, einige fakultativ, einige religiös, einige gemischt und eine nur Frauen. Mag zwar nicht mehr im Mainstream sein, ist aber trotzdem noch relativ populär (eine wunderschöne Villa zu günstigem Zimmerpreis, eine eigene Kneipe im Keller, massig Programm und Parties, ne lustige Truppe aus Gleichaltrigen die zusammen den Laden schmeißen, ne Truppe an alten Herren die Spaß daran haben ihre Jugend am Wochenende auf Kneipen noch Mal aufleben zu lassen und die Aktivitas zu allen möglichen Sachen mitnimmt, an jeder Ecke ein Verbindungshaus auf das man zu nem kurzen "Bummel" vorbeischauen kann, massig Besuche quer durch Deutschland, etc.. Es gibt leider ein paar schwarze Schafe die alle Verbindungen in den Dreck ziehen aber der Rest ist eigentlich ziemlich liberal und bietet eine sehr schöne Zeit in einer Gemeinschaft mit Gleichgesinnten die im gleichen Lebensabschnitt stehen und durch einige Rituale (wie in unserem Fall die Mensur) den Gemeinschaftssinn ausbauen (gerade wenn man wie ich vom Land zum Studium in die Stadt zieht ist es ein echter Goldgriff). Es ist immer was los, man hat immer wen dabei um Spaß zu haben oder aber auch beim Studium zu helfen und generell einfach eine steile Zeit. Nichts für Menschen die das klassische "Einzelkind" sind aber ansonsten würde ich es jedem empfehlen zumindest mal ein Semester auf nem Aktivenhaus zu wohnen und sich das alles mal anzugucken und mitzumachen (i.d.R. ist das die Frist die wir setzen bevor sich jemand entscheiden muss ob er beitreten will oder nicht)
Good question. Always been a low key trope with the Nazis/German officers *having scarred faces. I never would have named it but now that you bring it up, i realise it's a thing
German here ✌🏼 We still have old school Mensur in some Studentenverbindungen (student parties or whatever) and a couple of guys still wear the scars with proud. Some traditions never die
Honestly, as a Canadian (with british roots) I think this trend is really quite cool. Something very primal and manly about showing your grit in a game like Mensur and showing it visually for all to see. A man who can face his fears and brave adversity is a man worth respecting.
@@JimbletonJames It's a game where people face the fear of scarification. It's not more or less substantial a fear than getting a tattoo or a piercing. Someone who faces their actual fears, confronts their childhood traumas, addictions and insecurities is strength to me. This is bluff and blunder imo.
Mensur is indeed still a thing, a lot safer than it used to be, but I know for a fact, even back in the 90s when I was studying, that several students would prefer to risk the scar. Even today!
ofc, if there is no winner and loser, at least prove yourself by risking a little injury. if we use full protection it's useless, might as well fight online:)))) it makes sense to me
@@redwojak5182Well not exactly, there's always a winner and someone who's getting the scar,but it's more than that. It's about one's willingness to bleed, which symbolises one's willingness to die. For honor, for King and Country ,for one's family. Nowadays it's just about bragging rights!
@@TheAncientAstronomer it said in the video, is not about winning, is about being brave enough to participate. ofc there could be considered a winner and a loser but i think is not fair to if is not the point of the match. the rest of the things you said are absolutely true and i agree. Nobody wants to die but we do, and is important to know if your conviction is strong enough to fight and die for it.
@@redwojak5182It was and still is,dependent of one's fraternity, if you going to get extra XP for winning 😁 But regardless, getting out of a duel,without a scar,definitely gave you the right to say,yep I won this one.
Im german and it’s still common today. It’s way safer but the cheeks are not protected because the possibility of getting injured is a big part of it. You can’t be brave if you have nothing to loose or to fear.
For real? There's a very popular (concerningly so) comment in here claiming that because they banned the sport, the Nazis may be "morally superior to modern times." Whatever that means. The people who systematically murdered millions of other people. But hey, they banned that sport, so they had that going for them. Didn't stick, though, if what you're saying is true. I'm thinking maybe the sport doesn't have any moral significance to begin with. It's been this long and y'all come to the conclusion that it's fine?
If the scars are signs of bravery, and bravery is what you seek to proof, getting the scar cannot be called losing something. So this is a bit of self deception, isn't it?
@@d.h.1999 the intention is not to get a scar but to face the risk of getting one. But yes, many people hope to get a scar to show off even though the Mensur is not meant for that.
When i was young, my German Mom always told me to stay away from Men that have a Schmiss. Fraternity people are dangerous, she said. Always took that to heart
I didn't even need to watch the video, Skorzeny was one of many who had these scars. He said it taught him to be aggressive in battle, always 'attack the head'.
@@davejohns6694 I don't care for olympic fencing tbh. I was doing HEMA for several years, and clubbing someone on the head with a sword-shaped flexible steel bar is the way to go, as long as you have anything longer than a dagger
@@SamuraiAkechi I didn't put forward a generalised comment, and no, not every manual suggests a head attack, hence my reference to the Olympics. In fact competitive fencing in general.
I liked that you started your vid by replying to the question in the title of the video. Straight to the point. I didn't watch the vid, anyway i use adblock, but i dropped a like only for the reason that I got the info I came for wery quickly. Bravo
There is one person I know that literally fought around 12 matches for his mensur organisation. This is far from normal by the way as most people that fence only fight two matches in their lifes (the reason being that two matches are required to become respected members of the organisations). That one guy has his entire face covered in scars. He is a lifetime member of extraordinary honor to his organisation because he has earned such a reputation for himself and his folks. One information I'd add to the video: There are different types of sabres, varying in weight and size. They go from 500 grams to 5 kgs. Depending on which one you use, the probability of getting nasty scars is much higher. Needless to say, that guy I know went the extra mile to always fight with the heaviest sabres allowed.
@@animal0mother Both. He is a close friend of my father and likes to go on adventure trips to deserts and other unconventional places. His hobby is parachuting and partying (at least it used to be back then). Nowadays he has gotten a bit more relaxed. But still, despite his adrenaline addiction that guy is very respected among his fraternity. He literally sacrificed his studies for the ability to train fencing for five hours a day. People didn't want to face him in a match as he was a left-handed fighter, too.
heard this from my brother who is into sword fighting and by extension some fencing: since the Germans also believed having a larger scar means you remained still for the cut to go deeper, showing more courage, some German fencer used to prop wounds open on their face with horse hairs so the wound would leave behind a larger scar, honestly kind of metal if you ask me
My dad used to read those Flashman books.Grandpa,s cousin was Generaloberst Carl Hilpert , Commander of Army Group Courland on the Eastern Front.Before that he was chief of staff to two field Marshalls von Witzelbein and von Runstedt in the West.Tnete are several photos of him, may look and see if I can find any scars.Both his sons Ludwig and Phillip were also officers.
I read somewhere that they would often be stitched up and then afterwards rip the stitches out to make sure the scar was more visible. Oh - I see someone is pretty much said this - Oh well.😀
I remember seeing a Tv segment about this in the early 1990s. Traditional dueling was supposed to have gone underground and was still practiced at that point.
Since I have one of this so called "Schmiss" myself yes this is still a thing to this day. Also the Rules may vary depending on the regional Rules so does the Protection. Always protected are the eyes, the nose and neck and in most regions the ears. Also it is only allowed to aim for the head and if "Tief Partie" with "low" hits the left check if both are right handed . To hit the right check is forbidden cause you cant guard it. Also there are many strict rules that are to follow to ensure that only clean cuts are a posibly outcome if you get hit. There is much more about this and it is very complex also there are difference between "Pflicht" Mandatory Mensur and a Personal one . It is meant to strenghen youre character and stay silent don't do illegal hits during a "relative " safe match between u and another one who is at the same level if paired correctly and as it should be in the "Pflicht" ones . Also no not all german fraternities are right winged or nazi affiliated thats also bias because its old an has historical background. Also they say its sexist because in "schlagende Verbindungen " there are only male members. Thats for one we have "Anstand " decency and don't want to harm women cause who knows decensy you don't harm children , don't hit women and have respect for elders. Also there are biological diferences and no I don't want to discuss this hornet nest deeper. Sadly there are of course black sheeps in these that are in this political spectrum but at least where I was they were frowned upon and not liked.
Are there equivalent clubs, like with other sports, for women to face other women in Mensur? Surely if women wanted to face off against each other they’d be on an even playing field, social and physical.
@@Axqu7227 if I remember correctly there are two female fraterneties that practice it but not doing a Mensur there are also non fencing Verbindungen with different other main activitys some are Christian, there are some that are focusing on singing called Sängerschaft or sport in general "Turnerschaft "and there are female only or even mixed gender ones where the stereotype is they are having sex with eachother . Well there are stereotypes and Prejudices about the Various sorts of "Verbindungen " some are Political like "Burschenschaften" there is many stuff
Its not only german officers.its about big number of students over all. Me myself i am a corps student as well. I fought 6 Mensuren over all and have no bad scars at all. Its about tradition, honor and the feeling:There are bad things in life, but you can solve everything. Any questions?
You know, I always assumed that they just depicted German officers in movies as having scars because it makes him look more like the bad guy, but they didn’t always explain why they had them in real life. Learning that there was actually a legitimate dueling reason for the scars was actually pretty cool! learn something new every day!
You need to 'bone up' on your European history my friend...
They made themselves look like the bad guys by wearing the skull insignia on their collars.
I think the stereotype of bad guys having scars on their faces might partially come from the Nazis.
some people often forget that some of the fictions (if not all) are always inspired by reality in an exaggerated way
thats why i dont agree with the quote "reality is often dissapointing" (i know its a meme but still)
Today, German fraternities are mostly only to get drunk.
One of my friends got a fencing scar at university - in the UK in the '00s. We decided to recreate the fish slapping dance from Monty Python as a duel, and he got cut on the face from a dorsal fin. Still, he can legitimately claim to the girls in the pub that it's a duelling scar
And that shit looks hot ngl
Smth so weirdly attractive about a scar in the face along the cheek 😭😂
I've got a small scar near my eye from falling at work.
The story I've gone with is "God decided to throw the planet at me, and that's what's left from it" lol
@@amogus205 You wanna know how I got these scars? A RUclips comment said “hot ngl” so I took a razor blade to my face… - Joker probably
@@Tester-sh1mn
Nice 😏🤤
@@nignamedmutt7270 5t5j HHR 416 too 0😢😊M😮 mm 3:50 😊😊 look
As a child, my father had a bike accident that left him with a marked scar on his face. When studying medecine he found himself to be respected by many others -and especially old doctors- because they thought he got the scars through Mensur.
Those old doctors were likely nazi defectors granted asylum by the US.
Ur dad worked with Nazis?
I do the same with the scar I got on my back. Had two moles removed that were spaced apart, doc gott em both with one go and I got a 5 inch long scar that looks like I got stabbed.
@@Kspice9000 sounds like a horrible doctor -.-
@@Kspice9000 good that you got something out of his impatience ;)
You earned a like for the fact this isn't overextenuating the topic to the boredom of the viewers, it gets to the point, with facts, backs up the information with some citetation and then ends. Respect.
My ‘sports injury’ is from fencing. Blew a calf muscle because I did NOT stretch before a bout. When asked why I was limping, I replied “got hurt in a sword fight!’
Now that's a legit injury.
You are my brother in pain.
You know that bursa sac between your ribs and shoulder blade? I smashed the carp out of mine sparring kenjitsu. (For those who care, it was from leaning with a diagonal cut, more like a Zornhaw than a kesagiri.) Won the match, but am still dealing with the injury.
As a retired fencing coach, I can believe that happening, but that's nothing to my sword injury! Back in the 60's I was a young and dare I say, a very reckless fencer , fencing with Epee's with no jacket on! I ran onto the blade and it stuck in the joint of my arm, going in my arm a bit! Blood everywhere as it hit a main vein, whisked off to hospital in an ambulance, and you know what hurt even more? The tetanus injection in my arse! Couldn't sit on it for a week!
@Beautiful Music - Having had a tetanus shot in my arse, I can believe that happening, but that's nothing compared to my tetanus injury! Back in the early 2000s, I was demolishing a barn with two other workers, and we were almost done for the day, but there was one upright post still standing and a beam connected to it that had the other end on the ground. We decided to make sure everything was flat before leaving for the day, and one of my coworkers took a swing at the beam/post while I was at the far end. The beam came free from that post, but the end that I was on was still connected to another board, and it kicked up in the air before coming apart and falling on top of me. I managed to hit the board with my left arm as it was falling, which actually saved my nipple. The board had come loose with three nasty, rusted nails in it, and they raked down my chest, miraculously skipping over my nipple. I have a scar above and below the nipple, as well as on either side, but the nipple is fine. I used to tell people that I got attacked by a bear. The tetanus shot in my arse hurt like hell, but you know what hurt worse? My ego and my left arm! Arm in a cast for weeks and ego in a casket for life!
Nothing but golden stories in these comments! XD
Excellent video. It never occurred to me that was the reason for the scars on many of the German officers. I thought it was from war wounds from WW1. But that wouldn’t make sense for younger officers who didn’t serve in WW1.
Same here.
Though it is true a lot of German officers were World War 1 veterans
@@MicTheOni Its racist american film makers trying to make them look evil! Th epeople that lets blacks vote, marry whites, go to school! unlike the USA! 🤦♂🤣
There was always 1919-21 period and fights with communists. Those were far more serious than we know today. A lot of people died or were murdered and many ended up in hospitals.
Before World War I, over 90% of German students were in fraternities. Scars on the face were therefore a kind of university certificate ;-)
By the time of WW2, a lot of German officer no longer have only a mensur scar. The interwar era saw German Weimar military fighting against various Communist and Socialist organization.
There were much civil war being fought in Germany that some officers only have a scar from those wars and not a single one from Mensur.
As a sidenote:
When Nazi party tried to ban Mensur, some German aristrocrat try to defend it by calling Hitler a coward for "not having a stomach to suffer scars".
Hitler then reply by showing that man his Iron Cross First Class.
Which contrary to most casual historian who claimed that he gave it to himself when became the Führer, he LEGITIMATELY earned it for his bravery during the Great War by being a runner for his company.
I am German. My Grandfather (Wehrmacht Officer) had a scar from Mensur. He survived the eastern front and a couple of years as a POW in Russia. He was very proud of his scar, but sometimes complained that he would have prefered it to be "a little lower, and more to the right". He told me as a kid that one day i will have one too (nope, lol).
Maybe he predicted you being clumsy at DIY and somehow slipping and nailgunning yourself in the cheek or something.
@@shawnkillrow why would they deny that? They had drafts, almost everyone had a family that were soldiers during Third Reich, kinda like everyone in Ukraine has (great) grandparents in Soviet army, however embarrassing it is now. At least I know my grandpas rotted in trenches russians put them into and didn't get to rape all over Europe like actual frontline commie troops.
@@shawnkillrow I am not sure if what you are trying to write is english and if i understand you correctly and how many Germans you know to claim that and / or to verify my response...but around when the first genereation after the war was grown up. So i would say around 1965.
Badass grandpa
@@michdo23 "swazenigger" war schon ein ziemlich eindeutiges Zeichen wessen Geistes Kind er ist.
My art teacher back in the early 2000's had those too. My father, who had known him all the way back when both were attending university, told me of the practice and why he had such gruesome scars in his face.
Edit: On my fathers funeral, his old frat members (he was a doctor) attended it all with their own sword.
ruclips.net/video/uXi2RL3tLUw/видео.html
My great-grandfather had many scars on his face, he always told the story to my dad that when he was captured people thought he was a relative of a wealthy officer but he said that he was just bad at fencing
lol
You might want to invest in a metal detector and check his backyard
😂😂😂
A little correction: A Mensur usually doesn't end with first blood, it ends either after a certain number of blows, or when a cut is deemed dangerous by the doctor on site. This is called "Abfuhr", and it typically happens when two cuts are crossed, a cheek is pierced, or a piece of skin is severed (like it happened to me, for instance); however, the rules vary regionally.
Burschi
@@jannickharambe8550 Kein Burschenschafter, aber schlagend^^
@@jannickharambe8550 Sei ruhig wenn du keine Ahnung hast. Jeder Burschenschafter ist mehr wert als ein Linker.
Grauslig sowas. Nehmts eicha energie doch für was gscheites her. Egal ob burschenschafter oder ned, des is antiquiert und deppert.
@@hanspepigummischas Na ja, solange Boxen, Muay Thai, MMA, Krav Maga etc. gesellschaftlich akzeptiert sind, sehe ich nicht ein, was an einer Mensur so schlimm sein soll. Ein Schnitt in der Kopfhaut heilt schneller als eine gebrochene Nase.
Ironic the stereotypical "bad guy Nazi scar" sport was banned by the Nazis. How funny history can be.
like the guy in platoon.
alot of what we know the Nazis for was banned by them other than the crimes of course, the scars, the much better tobacco they smoked and more.
Almost like the leader of said group of nazis was not a member of the aristocracy and higher classes himself, and so felt belittled by all those in his closest circles who were...
But thats just me guessing (its also directly stated in the video)
@@redwojak5182 fuck outta here with these Nazi apologetics
@@redwojak5182 get the fuck out of here nazi simping scum
I myself am a member of a German fraternity that is obliged to fence. In fact, the frequency of scars has decreased, but more because of the way fencing is done today. The technique is a little more "advanced" and the obligatory hitting area in most German fraternities is much higher up on the head, which makes defence much easier. However, I know some people who are still scarred today, it's not entirely uncommon. The video you showed when you talked about safety precautions is complete nonsense, though. The Mensur takes place under the same safety precautions as back then and the helmets you showed are only worn for training purposes. So the possibility of being hit sharply is still there and is what makes the mensur in itself.
Apart from that, your video was amazingly accurate.
When we fought we used just non sharp swords. We just could not scar ourselves.
Btw it was the dumbest thing I‘ve seen. I got out of the Verbindung after 2 months
@@PinkPanther1402 Only blunt blades are used for training. Because duhhh
@@PinkPanther1402 The German fraternity system is obviously not for everyone. But if you're in the right one, you can have a massive amount of fun. Especially when the people in the fraternity become your best buddies, "putting yourself out there for the fraternity" is very different from just doing it to pick up a cheap room, for example.
Besides, as I said, it's not as if hits and scars happen regularly.
@@hansschneidig5240 Maybe you're right. Might be I was in the wrong one. I loved the concept of this, but had a problem with the hierarchies and authoritarian style of this
I remember when Colonel Klink described a German officer expected to visit Stalag XIII “He gave me my duelling scar.” 😊
Dis…missed…!!
I know noTHING!!!
General Burkhalter also had a fencing scar...
KLINK!!! 😤
awww someone knows hogan heros
@@jerryjeromehawkins1712 “General Burkhalter (Leon Askin) had a scar on his face from an old duel. But it wasn't a fake scar just for the show. Leon actually got his scar from being beaten up by the SS just for being Jewish. His birth name was originally Leo Aschkenasy.” - IMDb
I love this channel's format! A simple answer early in the video with no lengthy introduction, followed by related information.
Thanks so much. I'm sick of the click bait drag on format myself.
@@JohnnyJohnsonEsq I'm from Heidelberg, Germany.
We still have Burschenschaften where the Mensur is compulsory. You can't join without practicing it. While the head is much better protected today, there are still bloody duels. But in contrast to the past, they try to keep the scar as small as possible. With instant medical care and aftercare.
I was attacked with a knife right under the eye at 16. I needed 5/6 stitches. I didn't use any anti-scar creme, which the court decided my attacker had to pay for. But you still don't see much.
The Austrian, which still refuse the idea of an _"Austrian nation"_ and still take pride in being Germans. Which is a source for trouble in today's Austria. Who's trying to build a new national identity, separate from the German, after WWII. Ironic since Austrian/the Habsburgers has been the greatest German power for hundreds of years.
The Austrian Burschenschaften are also still part of the largest head organization of German Burschenschaften and are some of the most traditional ones. Probably to _"prove their "germaness"._
This still happens! I met a few guys who were fraternity members in Hamburg when i was there during my study abroad, and visited their frat house where they had practice rooms for this exact thing. The swords are razor-sharp! One day my frat member friend came into class with a huge scar on his face, apparently he had done one of these fencing fights with a guy from another frat who disrespected him. They take it super seriously and the fight goes on until the doctor supervising calls it off because it is a sign of weakness to give up during the fight.
Edit - the improvements to safety head-gear weren't the case at the place i saw. They just wore goggles that cover the eyes and ears, leaving the forehead and cheeks exposed.
I don't know if it's overall looked down on, but I find this really cool. Like it takes guts to do this thing, yet with protections to certain areas in place, it should be relatively safe and shouldn't end up inhibiting normal functions except for rare occurances.
@@daladirn5119 Ususally those groups that still do this have Nazi-sympathizing views and more often than not have found to for example still sing Nazi-voksongs etc. That's why they have a really bad rep (and honestly, rightfully so) because you have to be okay with such views in Germany and Austria to be part of such a group, which considering the history and how much physical evidence we have of the atrocities of the Nazis is insane imo.
@@frozenyogurth That's kinda interesting, considering that this is a pre-nazi tradition which has been outlawed during nazi time. Though oftentimes traditions which do not have roots in one ideology can be misinterpreted through the times, so I do see how your statement could be true, but overall, I haven't found mentions that this would be the case. From what I've read, it even grew and expanded into other nations like Austria, Switzerland or even Poland, so even though in some cases, Nazi ideologists could be practicing it, I don't see the premise for a significant part of the practitioners to be of nazi ideology.
Not that I don't believe you, but multiple sources (even if they are just an eyewitness), are better than just one.
I would love to hear how other Germans view this sport as well, because the sources on why this sport is still prevalent in Germany are very scarce
Ears? Not nose?
@@frozenyogurth Not supporting the righteous cause of National Socialism is insane.
I really like how you gave the answer right away
Addition:
Some people have put a horse hair in the open wound. When the wound closed after a short time, the hair was torn out to open the scar again. This way the scar became more imposing.
You got that fun fact from a Reddit post, didn't you
If you want to REALLY intimidate someone just put the whole horse in
@@10pmmemes88 Nope :)
I read in several storys as a sidefact from this time like in books of Stefan Zweig, Erich Maria Remarque or Hermann Hesse...
@@marcusk2905 I hate it when my history degree is boiled down to "you read that on reddit didn't you", its really a self report thats where the commenter gets THEIR info from
Oh wow! Thanks for sharing
We talked about this in fencing club. The students would sometimes rub salt in the wound to make it scar more, or cauterize them. It was an old aristocratic tradition that stayed in some form in the fencing world.
Bro whut
As I understand it, they'd rub ash in or, for longer cuts, lay a horse hair in the wound to keep it irritated so it wouldn't heal cleanly. We talked about this as well in my fencing club and a could of us gave it a try one day in the fullness of idiotic youth. Can't say the small scar it gave me ever won me any favors, but a beard hides it well enough.
Some also pulled horse Hair thoughts the wound
These are more or less just myths though. Most bad scars were most likely due to bad doctors. There are no actual sources for this and time witnesses don't confirm it. There were cases where people would use horse hair but this was for medical reasons. Then there was the so-called Schmiss-Ziehen which translates to scar-pulling. This hindered the healing process but was not commonly practiced. Most students had many and deep scars because they were fencing so much, with 20 or so duels a semester being the norm.
Nowadays a student of a fencing fraternity might barely fence three times in his university time with more than three times being the outlier.
Sounds like the Germans were the original Frat Boys
"Don't trust a sword master with both eyes and all his teeth" is a saying I encountered from historical swordsmanship. Great video Johnny ❤
That's like saying a carpenter with ten fingers is inexperienced.
dont trust a therapist without any rapings
I.. wow that was dark :-D jeezus
Never trust a skinny chef is another
Never trust a motorcyclist who's not paralyzed from the neck down
Great video. Super informative, yet short, to the point and concise without sparing any huge info.
I had 8 Mensur in total. This is really a nice summary! You nailed it pretty much.
Cheers from Germany
Landser sind Fett
Mad lad.
@@Eagle-eye-pie first beer is on me
Respect
The content is interesting but the fact that you led with the answer to the question within the first seconds is what makes it extra amazing!
The more modern video you showed in the end is of course only of training. The protective equipement of a Mensur today consists of the Mensurschläger itself with the large basket (Korbschläger), although in a part of Germany, a lighter kind of Schläger with a sheet metal handguard called Glockenschläger is used instead. The fencing hand is also protected by a heavy leather glove with kevlar or chain mail inserts. The arm is protect by an armgaurd of similar material up to the shoulder, and the body is protected by a chain mail shirt. The neck is covered by special made wrappings similar to the arm, so there is no risk of deadly injuries. It is also made sure that there are no gaps. Finally, the eyes are protected by a special kind of metal glasses called Mensurbrille. So of course there is still a chance for strikes to the head or face. There is always one or two doctors, an impartial and a second and several assistants for each side present. A Mensur isn't always over when one side gets hit. There is always a fixed number of strikes in each round and a fixed number of rounds, although it may end early when one side shows fear as in crying out or stepping back etc., or when one side is too badly hit. The first and sometimes second Mensur that members do is more regulated in the number of rounds or also strikes, and the types of strikes and techniques that are allowed, but these rules vary from region to region. Most members don't desire scars as it rather shows that your opponent was the better fencer. There is no victor in a Mensur. A Mensur is always done between members of different fraternities. The fraternity brothers of each side decide if the performance in technique and bravery was sufficient. In fraternities where a certain number of Mensuren is obligatory, this leads to the member having to repeat that Mensur. Mensuren aren't done because of insults or anything like that anymore, but just to uphold traditions and for sport and maybe a test of bravery. It is also a chance to do something special that isn't done by that many people anymore.
es wird schon auch auf ehre gefordert. nicht so häufig üblich. die Korporationen mussten Adenauer versprechen, das zu keinen Mensuren mit duelcharakter kommt. damit sie wieder zugelassen werden. das ist nur nicht so öffentlich bekannt. gerade die steileren baltischen Verbindungen oder auch süddeutsche Verbindungen speziell der DB haben da einiges. es sind auch nicht nur so die Traditionen. die Mensur wird gepaukt um zu prüfen ob jemand bereit ist, auch mit haut und haar einzustehen. nicht überall wird mit wangenleder und mensurbrille gepaukt. es ist also sehr wohl eine Mutprobe. die Mensuren werden beurteilt ob jemand "schleppt" oder wegzugt. klar wird da ein kleines Geheimnis drum gemacht. wenn die potentiellen Füxe das gleich wüssten, würden sie vielleicht doch lieber anderswo eine Bude suchen. Soldaten hitlers wollten besonders die Buschis sein, während sich die Corps, cv und kv in Selbstauflösung flüchteten um dann doch im nationalsozialistischen Studentenbund weiterzumachen. die Lücke in den Geschichtsbüchern verlaufen vieler Korporationen zu dieser zeit ist ja immer bezeichnet.
also...., mann sollte nicht so tun als ob das alles so ganz harmlos ist. deutsche Korporationen haben ihren Anteil an der jüngeren deutschen Geschichte. dass war keine guter. die liberten zu brünn in Aachen haben nicht umsonst jahrelang eine karte Deutschlands in den grenzen von annodunn zu hängen.
ich würde nicht behaupten das alle Korporationen nazis sind. ich hatte viele interessante Gespräche, Diskussionen als Kritiker auf Häusern. mir ist immer mit größtem Respekt begegnet worden.
Are Germans unable to invent a goddamn fencing helmet like used in Kendo or European Fencing? it takes care of facial cuts and doesn't have goofy glasses.
@@KasumiRINA it’s about standing your ground under the possibility of real harm, that’s why you explicitly don’t use those
@@Jonas-ui3io ja genau. Eine Art gesinnungs und auch Gehorsamstest-> archaischer Initiationsritus. Es gehört schon in gewisse Weise „mut“ dazu.
Danke, ich habe nach der Erklärung gesucht. Jetzt muss ich sie selber nicht schreiben.
thank you so much for giving the answer right away, followed by details, without stretching it to 10 or 20 minutes
I remember reading in Theodore Roosevelt's biography (written by Edmund Morris), that in his youth he was staying with a family in Dresden. Two sons of that family studied at the University of Leipsic and were members of a dueling corps. One, a famous swordsman, was called Der Rothe Herzog (the Red Duke), and the other was nicknamed Herr Nasehorn (Sir Rhinoceros) because the tip of his nose had been cut off in a duel and sewn on again.
Greetings from Dresden :p
Leipzig
@@ChristianR-fx8uy Yeah, you're right, the book uses an old English spelling of Leipzig
@@ChristianR-fx8uy Leipsic in English
@@Reichsritter old english#
Now its Leipzig.
As someone used to seeing Olympic fencing and HEMA, seeing this form of fencing is very interesting. If the fencers weren't standing still, this would look like some sort of old Hollywood movie type fencing where the fencers were clearly aiming at each other's swords and not each other. Regardless, this was definitely not how I imagined that these duels were actually fought. I've known about this dueling tradition for a long time now but I had always thought that they were regular style duels with the entire body being a valid target and a lot of back and forth.
Ya I was thinking the same. Makes me wonder if maybe some old Hollywood movies had fencing scenes informed by this style, which is why they look so bad to modern fencers.
They weren't really fencing. They were standing in a formal setting and deliberately allowing themselves to be struck in the face with a rapier or sabre.
As far as I'm concerned, because it wasn't acquired during a duel to the death it's just a fake "dueling scar. May as well have had it done as a surgical procedure. A pointless scar fraudulently acquired. Allowing yourself to be hit in the face by a sword is not bravery. It's stupidity. A permanent mark proving you as an imbecile. Now we know why the Nazi regime was so stupid. It was literally run by imbeciles.
Keep the purpose of the thing in mind! NOBODY needs a corpse, damnit.
They boiled down "fencing" to a moderate risk fun activity. Which it could not be, if there was even a chance to stab the oponent.
When I looked at the sport 30 years ago, we 'd be supposed to stand 1 weapon length shoulder from shoulder, height differences equalled out by putting the shorter guy on pallets. We'd do rounds of 4 or 6 strikes and have fully armored seconds with blunt blades ready to go in, to make sure things go their ritualized way.
The video combines inaccurate movie footage with told BS. Its conventional (no longer legal) duells that might end at first blood. Academic fencing goes through the planned amount of rounds, unless the always present MD decides that it has to stop.
FTR: I neither watched nor participated in a mensur.
I have no clue when duelling among academics ended. 19th century? Reglementations for light or heavy saber duells can still be read, pistols might have been preserved.
Mensur fencing is usually against a suitable oponent provided by a different fraternity. The ones I looked at demanded between 2 and maybe 6 mandatory fights. - Of course one could bump into somebody and get dissolving drama 1:1 later or 3 : 3, if its tide was high enough, arranged.
Same hear. We even use schlager blades in the Adrian empire for our rapier combat.
It's literally not even a "sport" at all, just bloody hazing and ritual scarification elevated to high social fashion. Once it became basically obligatory to graduate with scars (or else be thought a coward), cadets started slicing up their own faces with razor blades or even paying doctors to scar up their faces under chloroform anesthesia.
Very nice video! I'm member in a student Fraternity here in Germany and fenced five mensur. Calling them duels is strictly prohibited, since according to german Lawduels are prohibited. It's considered a sporting event where both sides agree to violence. Basically like a boxing match. The word "mensur" derives from "measure" as in distance between the Paukanten (the fencing guys). It's strictly prohibited to move anything but your arm during fencing. If you move anything else or even flinch, then youre instantly disqualified and have to repeat the mensur to restore your wothiness as a fencer. Every City has its own nuances to the rules but they're all similar. The clips from "Hans Westmar" are quite accurate whit the speed and technique.
Then what's the point? Just to show off who has bigger balls doing something inpractical but dangerous? Would be easier to throw bricks up and wait who flinches first.
@@steppebro9275 If your technique is good then you won't get hit. Every sport is impractical and dangerous. I also ride motorcycles that's even more dangerous and even more impractical 🤯
@@steppebro9275 it is also a bonding experience that makes for a tight knit group.
Don't be too proud of your right wing racist neo nazi boy club.
Mahn, where can i have a copy of rules?
Friend of mine has a big scar in his face not due to mensur but he fell into glasshards as a baby. when he wanted to join a student union (Burschenschaft) at first glance they thought he was a member of another union calling for satisfaction. He had to explain that he was new and non of their members was in trouble. In some citys, areas people do care about a "schmiss"
Just found your channel and man, you have given me so many movies to watch, the fact you always put the title in the clips is just about the best thing ever, thanks for taking the time to do it and your videos are pretty awesome as well.
yes his videos are good but like you I also now have films that I am going to watch thanks to this guy
Thanks man! Half of my objective is just to expose new movies and media for people.
Yess he show us a lot of good movies
I know. I need to check out this 'Royal Flash' now. It looks like someone uploaded the entire movie onto RUclips but it's only at 360p.
@@mrquirky3626 lol that was the exact movie i wanted to watch as well, among all the others.
Thank you for sharing. I admire how you have the gift of condensing historically significant information in an "entertaining", yet vitally important way.
Great video Johnny! I am an active member in a fencing fraternity and you did a pretty good job explaining the Mensur. However, it is difficult to find videos online depicting the Mensur accurately. During a real Mensur, the "Paukant" (Fencer) is not allowed to say anything. Most importantly, you are not allowed to flinch, even if you cannot block the oncoming blow. The Paukant has to stand his ground and "take the hit". Receiving the hit during the duel does not hurt that much, as you are full of Adrenaline. The stitching of the Schmiss immediatley after the Mensur if usually quite painful, as there are no anesthetics and the adrenaline starts to wear off :)
Cheers!
Do you know the name of the officer on the left in the thumbnail? I've tried Googling it but can only find photos of Skorzeny
@@Not_From_Hollandno, i do not know who he is. Tbh he looks more like a character out of a movie and the scar on his cheek looks not like a typical schmiss. Additionally, most scars are inflicted upon the left side of the head, as most fencers are right handed
Whether it's painful or not depends on the cut, to be fair. Having a piece of your scalp cut off hurts quite a bit, believe me...
What a cool, thorough, and succinct video on an on odd piece of WW2 history. Guess I'll be binge watching your videos tonight.
Right on and thank you! My videos can be hit or miss but welcome to the channel.
Today the perception of scars in fraternitys shifted. If you have one it just shows that you didn't train enough. I fought two Mensuren myself and I am just as proud that I never received a hit, as they were proud to wear scars back then.
funny how idiots will always find ways to be proud of their shortcomings.
in highschool girls would brag about getting effed by an 18+ year old. congratz to them for doing the leg work of the pedo, they didn't even have to give them candy the girls did it for free, staring with 14, by 17 most weren't virgins. I didn't partake until I was a legal adult and was ostracized for it.
I wonder which practice had the higher death rate.
It's not the training it's the skill of the fencer at the end of the day.
Train for what? Standing still and attacking a stillstanding opponent with a whimsy blade is hardly an aadvanced skill nor is it a particularly impressive one. Seems to me this "fencing" is practiced for the sake of inflating ego in otherwise frail and privileged children
Bismarck himself fought 26 Mensuren (duells) and just got a small Schmiss (cut) to the nose. A brave man!
He didnt fought them all by himself. The number is quite inflated.
But a fought some.
No just skillful
@@LordMuffinToken All his duells are documentated. His "Sekundanten" and his "Gegenpaukanten" are all known!
@tusk70 as far as I know a lot of those were fought by his "Foxes" in his Name. On a later date when he was already a bit more famous
28 Mensuren - and I had the great grandson of him on guard duty once.
Because he presented himself as piece of privileged POS I let him have dead man’s hour shift.
As a friend who was heavily marked with facial scars and was quite intimidating, once said to me (Before I got to know him well,) "Never be afraid of a man with a scar on his face, be more afraid of the man who put it there"
But what if the person that put that scar on his face died because of it ?
Mmm I see but I find more agreeable that whatever brought the scar was not as strong as the scarred because the person survived.
Meh, this quote is used in many different forms. I remember seeing on a TV show or a movie once someone buying some kind of warrior or gladiator of some sort who was hyped up from all His battle scars and the person says "I don't want that guy, I want the guy who did that to him".
It's just a funny type of quote that gets your thinking but it doesn't really have any basis... You could be born with the scars, you could've been glassed in a night out in the pub, maybe been in a car crash etc doesn't mean cos you have a scar on your face your some crazy tough menacing fighter
At least the people who left the Thumbs up(thank you) seem to understand my comment which is more than the 3 thick £ucks who left these stupid comments.
what if the scar is my fault lol
Very Informative thanks!
Like many others here, I knew a bit about duelling scars, but this is way more than I ever heard of, or even seen! Thank you Johnny it's brilliant. Well thought through and presented, you win a cookie lol
I have a scar on my chin from a mugger's knife. Don't worry, the mugger missed the mark (my neck) and it was the only swing he got. Poor guy never did walk again. So I guess I got me one of them scars! Too bad my beard covers it up.
@@sid2112 I never discuss my experiences, although I still have my fairburn sykes, sharp as a razor too, but for you I say, well done sir!
Respect to you both...50% of my body is covered in knife scars,I have PTSD, bad hips, dodgy knees, ,healed fractures, apart from that I,m OK, ...peace and love from the wirral peninsula,bounded by the mersey and the Dee and the Irish sea...geography and rhyme ❤❤😊😊
I am actually in a German fraternity and did this in my active time. Few comments: 1) no need to talk in past tense, it’s still thing 2) there is no screaming and dodging, your frat will remove you immediately from the ground. You are bringing dishonor to their colors and your name and have to do another duel at a later point of time to clean the shame. 3) scars are only important to very few people nowadays. I don’t have scars and inflicted few minor wounds, but my opponents didn’t do anything to make them worse 4) no beer and cigarette tastes better than the one after the fight
Nie ein einzigen Schmiss bekommen als Paukant?😉
@@TheAncientAstronomer Vielleicht nur drei Partien auf dem ASC. ;)
@@teekue Oder unverschämtes Glück gehabt! 😁
Hier sind mehr Füxe als im Wald.
@@TheAncientAstronomerPassiert, wenn nur Hochcomments ficht. Deswegen zählen die bei uns nur als Fuchsenpartie. 😘
This is actually still practiced in some "corps", albeit with many safety precautions.
Mark Twain describes it beautifully and, of course, in a very fun way in "A Tramp Abroad".
There are way more fraternities than just the Corps that still practive academic fencing. The safety precautions are a bit more advanced, but the areas which can be hit during Mensur are still more or less the same as a hundred years ago and depending on the rule in the according city.
I had never heard of the film, Royal Flash until I watched this video so I went and watched it for the first time. It's a real hidden gem. British humor and action. It's really great. Thanks for making me aware of it.
Nice, well researched!
I'm a member of a fencing fraternity, i even have a big Schmiss on my cheek. It's always nice to see good, non-biased content on the topic
Thanks for that! I've never tried it personally so it's good to hear from people who walk the walk.
@@JohnnyJohnsonEsq
It is ridiculous and utterly insane, but also a massive adrenaline kick and i love it!
It also gives me the option to challenge other frat boys that i can't stand. There are a lot of assholes in the community and having the option to rearrange their face in a perfectly legal way is incredibly satisfying
@@friedipar Are you from a Corps, Burschenschaft, Landsmannschaft or Turnerschaft?
@@flaviusstilicho1239
Landsmannschaft
@@friedipar Stabil. Bin zwar Buxe, find aber die meisten Landser die ich kenne sehr sympathisch.
Nice explanation. Being in a Burschenschaft and having several Mensur-Scars myself, I can underline most of the things that were said. Only the video samples out of movies don‘t reflect the fencing style very well.
Korrekt! Mit Waffenstudentischen Grüßen!
well done video. My Father and grandfather were in Fraternities but only my dad was in a "fighting fraternity". Fun fact sometimes they would put a horse hair in the wound to make sure it wouldnt heal quickly if the cut was only minor to make sure they got a good scar
Do you know the name of the officer on the left in the thumbnail? I've tried Googling it but can only find photos of Skorzeny
That is not true. The horse hair was not for making an ugly scar, it was for wound drainage.
@@evilmattn Exactly, the hindering of the healing process is a myth that even people in fencing fraternities often perpetuate. Not true though.
"Fun fact sometimes they would put a horse hair in the wound to make sure it wouldnt heal quickly if the cut was only minor to make sure they got a good scar"
CRAWWWWLING IN MY SKIIIIN
@@teekue shit I just commented about the horsehair bit.. didn't know it was a myth 😂
The sport of 2 guys with real swords cutting each other in the face looks so bad ass. Gotta bring that sport back alot of people would pay to watch that in modern times.
This is awesome I’ve been to German college towns and another right of passage was going to their local school prison where they would paint silhouettes of themselves and friends on the prison walls. They’d use a lamp to create light for the shadow and the silhouettes of a group would be layered/tiled together with their names
"School prison"
Excuse me what?
@@paulmares9815 This dates back to the old medieval and up to late 19th centuries. If you were a student back then, you would enter a separate "social" class and fall under the jurisdiction of your university and not the jurisdiction of you local lord or city. That's why universitys had their own trials, jail cells, etc. That's also why students were allowed to carry swords and the mere citizen was not.
Studentenkarzer 😅 You only stay there over night or for a few days for rude behaviour. Otto von Bismarck went a few times to the "Karzer".
@@paulmares9815 Yeah, Students used to have their own jurisdiction. The Tradition of the Silhouettes or ''Scherenschnitt'' still exists with german fraternities. Once you become a Member or ''Bursche'' your Silhouette will be put on a wall with all of the others who have been members of the fraternity, for some this will reach back two hundred years and they'll have thousands of pictures on that wall.
@@paulmares9815 It was the Karzer (latin carcer) for short-tern punishment for nonsense. We had one in my school as well, which was built in the early 19th century. Of course only in use long ago, until the very early 1930s (not during the Nazi time and afterwards).
Well, 55 years old and today I can say, I've known about this. Always seen the scars but never thought that this would be the reason behind it! thanks for the video and information
My German grandfather was in one of these duelling student fraternities. I remember going to a few of their "old boys'" social evenings. No women allowed and heavy drinking was expected. I also had 2 German work colleagues with the typical scar across their face.
These fraternities though were not really for enjoying oneself although that was part of it. They were meant to support new students, help them find digs and be there for them if they get into trouble, fr instance with the police. And later it was a big bonus if the boss of the company you want to work for was a fraternity "old boy". He would make sure you didn't just get a job but also that you climbed the company hierarchy speedily.
a couple more reasons why all of this is bullshit
Nepotism, of sorts.
@@nmartin5551It's called loyalty
@ Outsider Labs - that's 100% nepotism wtf...
@@MezzoForte4 Yep, you're right. But it's like that all around the world in some form or other. You a member of the wrong political party? Sorry no job here for you. You not a member of our club? Sorry no job here for you. It's an open secret everywhere that you have to be in with the right people to get into high positions.
Here's one thing I really liked about this video: quick, to the point, and what the current situation is. All within 5 minutes and not some nonsense 20 minute video
What a fine video. Nicely researched and documented. Good German pronunciation. Good show, John. Thanks for sharing. Regards from Reggio Calabria 🇮🇹
Never knew this. Great video!
very good :). as a german i already was familiar with the topic but it took me by surprise to see someone cover the topic and get it right on top of it. great work.
0:22 Hey! Ernst Rohm's scars were from battle in WW1.
While not officially, Mensur is very much a thing still among some student groups here in Germany to this day, tho rare
When my dad was in university in the 70s or 80s here in germany (i cant remember the exact year) there where people who would participate in these duels as well. He never participated in them but he saw plenty of people with scars like that so now finding out that this was a more wide spread thing its quite an interesting feeling for me.
Oh, your dad was a Burschi 😖
Got a problem with that kollege?
@@lepsychiatre8455 No one has problems with anything
One of my brethren died during an illegal duel in 1980. Haven't practiced it since then.
In your video, it comes across as if Mensures are a part of the past. In fact, Mensures are still fought in German-speaking countries today. The risk of injury is still quite high today and I know many students with scars on their faces. In the past, however, students made sure that the scars deliberately become severely inflamed so they are more visible. This is rarely the case today.
If you are in a fraternity yes, I believe that you know a few people which are doing mensures. But overall in Germany students in fraterneties, corps, ect. are the absolute minority. I heard a number about 1%(?) of overall students are members? In a few cities they are quite visible but still few and in nearly ten years I have seen students with smite once or twice.
@@ML-ii8gt Yes, that's right. However, it was also in the 18th and 19th. Century exclusively students who have fought for Mensuren. So even then it was only a small group of people who fought Mensuren. The small percentage nowadays comes from the fact that Mensuren are only held in the cities with old universities. For example, I studied in Göttingen. There, the number of male students in fencing fraternities is higher. I estimate about 5-10%.
@@RazeaKrait
Such an odd way to 'prove' manhood.
It is stated at the end of the video that Mensures are still going on, but with a lot more care and protection - but isn't doing it without the chance of scars (at least in choice locations like that jaw or cheeks) kind of defeating the purpose?
I know that Schmisse can have bad connotations for people nowadays, so perhaps that is why.
@@BeingFireRetardant Admittedly, it is a tradition that no longer corresponds to the current zeitgeist. But it's basically a sport like any other.
wow that 4 minute video blew my wig back! crazy history! that was fascinating!
I saw a video clip of this style of sword fighting years ago and have been casually looking for details on it for a long time. Thanks for creating this!
Puts a whole new meaning to watching Scarface in the german dub
Very interesting. Thank you very much. How nice and unusual to find a video about German traditions or culture without spiteful or obnoxious comments. Regards
The schmiss (or dueling scar) was a sign of nobility, and of bravery. They got those scars from fencing, the most well known figure to wear those scars, in my opinion, was Lieutenant Colonel Otto Skorzeny. Fictionally, Leon Askin's General Burkhalter character from Hogan's Heroes wore those scars as well.
Otto was a real bad ass ! Equivalent to a Navy Seal today .
I enjoyed the use of the significant clips from "Royal Flash". "The Flashman papers" are some of my favorite books, and I was often surprised at the amount of historical facts were written alongside the extravagant fiction of the stories.
Wow! Actual legitimate history that doesn’t just focus on the nazi party! Just from this short video, I learned plenty of interesting information! You’ve definitely earned an upvote!
dont trust him. as a descendent of national socialists i can verify this channel deletes comments to prevent any actual debate on the propoganda he spews.
True, lots of "historical nazi porn" on the web.
Brilliant video! I was always kind of curious but just automatically assumed their scars were combat related. Thanks a lot for the explanation!
Ngl duelling scars do genuinely look badass
This practice did not only take place in Austria or Germany. Fraternities and their customs spread everywhere where the ruling class consisted mostly of Germans. This also includes Latvia and Estonia. Although back then these two countries were part of the Russian Empire, the local ruling class consisted mostly of Baltic Germans. Also, the two main universities in the region, the University of Tartu (Dorpat) and Riga Polytechnical Institute, were mostly German and the students organized themselves into fraternities.
We didnt done so with Denmark after the German-Danish War since it would had been to bothersome to have to deal with the Language Barrier.
But regarding the Netherlands? it would make quite a lot of Sense(at least for Germany^^) though, Culture wise we are close enough and Language wise even more so, I mean if you dont happen to be a very knowlegable Linguistic giga Expert, then Dutch and Platt Deutsch will litterally be the same Language to you.
See you at youre Beaches next Summer ;D
My father was Hungarian and had fencing swords and scar from university in AustroHungarian empire. (1918-1921)
Having founded and ran a fencing club in college, I remember having to clear up some misconceptions to some of the non-American students that we were not a Mensur club. It's always a bit of a culture shock to find that Olympic fencing is not the most well known type of fencing in every part of the world.
Well put sir,...😊
This video is brilliant, had no idea about this, and was expecting it to be some hollywood trope (scarred soldier = badguy, hansome-fresh faced guy=goodies) or some such. Amazing!
scarred soldier - bad guy
handsome fresh-faced soldier - good guy
handsome scarred soldier - VERY bad guy
@@gronizherz3603 this is true.
You answered the question within the first 3 seconds then elaborated for us in detail, respect.
I am from Germany Bavaria i am 26 years old and the fraternitys here still do this, i know a couple of people around my age who have scars like this...there are different types of fencing with more protection, or less protection. The city i was Born in "Erlangen" is quite famous in the fraternity Community, because the fraternities here still fence without much protection...
My dad actually was in one of those kinds of fraternities where they had to fence (I'm german). He managed to win all his matches so he got out of it with no scars, but he knew a bunch of people whk did have them. Interestingly, the equipment didnt really change much until the 90s at least, people were still wearing the same type of steel goggles shown in the video
Genuinely never heard of this before, guess I was born 50 years too young
Die Stahlbrillen werden auch heute noch verwendet. Alles was sich geändert hat mit der Moderne, ist, dass die Seide in den Halskrägen (manchmal) durch Kevlar ersetzt wird.
It still hasn't changed, we still use the same equipment, what was shown in that segment is training equipment
Okay wo lebt ihr? Scheinbar ist das ja nach wie vor vertreten?
@@nickkohlmann ich bin in einer Verbindung in Bonn, hier haben wir um die 30, einige pflichtschlagend, einige fakultativ, einige religiös, einige gemischt und eine nur Frauen. Mag zwar nicht mehr im Mainstream sein, ist aber trotzdem noch relativ populär (eine wunderschöne Villa zu günstigem Zimmerpreis, eine eigene Kneipe im Keller, massig Programm und Parties, ne lustige Truppe aus Gleichaltrigen die zusammen den Laden schmeißen, ne Truppe an alten Herren die Spaß daran haben ihre Jugend am Wochenende auf Kneipen noch Mal aufleben zu lassen und die Aktivitas zu allen möglichen Sachen mitnimmt, an jeder Ecke ein Verbindungshaus auf das man zu nem kurzen "Bummel" vorbeischauen kann, massig Besuche quer durch Deutschland, etc..
Es gibt leider ein paar schwarze Schafe die alle Verbindungen in den Dreck ziehen aber der Rest ist eigentlich ziemlich liberal und bietet eine sehr schöne Zeit in einer Gemeinschaft mit Gleichgesinnten die im gleichen Lebensabschnitt stehen und durch einige Rituale (wie in unserem Fall die Mensur) den Gemeinschaftssinn ausbauen (gerade wenn man wie ich vom Land zum Studium in die Stadt zieht ist es ein echter Goldgriff).
Es ist immer was los, man hat immer wen dabei um Spaß zu haben oder aber auch beim Studium zu helfen und generell einfach eine steile Zeit. Nichts für Menschen die das klassische "Einzelkind" sind aber ansonsten würde ich es jedem empfehlen zumindest mal ein Semester auf nem Aktivenhaus zu wohnen und sich das alles mal anzugucken und mitzumachen (i.d.R. ist das die Frist die wir setzen bevor sich jemand entscheiden muss ob er beitreten will oder nicht)
Good question. Always been a low key trope with the Nazis/German officers *having scarred faces. I never would have named it but now that you bring it up, i realise it's a thing
Thanks for answering the clickbait in the first few seconds. You’re a hero for that
Great video! I've always been curious about why German officers had scars on the faces in movies and anime.
keep watching anime like a good cuck you will achieve great things in the future!
@@yourworstnightmare1488 malding
@@yourworstnightmare1488Do you know what a "cuck" is?
Vile weeb detected
@@yourworstnightmare1488 Rent free
German here ✌🏼
We still have old school Mensur in some Studentenverbindungen (student parties or whatever) and a couple of guys still wear the scars with proud. Some traditions never die
It's a fine tradition, one that I wish was spread further.
Yeah some traditions are too dumb to die.
@@robrobusaStill beats the American pastime of cutting the willies off children
Honestly, as a Canadian (with british roots) I think this trend is really quite cool. Something very primal and manly about showing your grit in a game like Mensur and showing it visually for all to see.
A man who can face his fears and brave adversity is a man worth respecting.
@@JimbletonJames It's a game where people face the fear of scarification. It's not more or less substantial a fear than getting a tattoo or a piercing. Someone who faces their actual fears, confronts their childhood traumas, addictions and insecurities is strength to me.
This is bluff and blunder imo.
Mensur is indeed still a thing, a lot safer than it used to be, but I know for a fact, even back in the 90s when I was studying, that several students would prefer to risk the scar.
Even today!
ofc, if there is no winner and loser, at least prove yourself by risking a little injury. if we use full protection it's useless, might as well fight online:)))) it makes sense to me
@@redwojak5182Well not exactly, there's always a winner and someone who's getting the scar,but it's more than that.
It's about one's willingness to bleed, which symbolises one's willingness to die.
For honor, for King and Country ,for one's family.
Nowadays it's just about bragging rights!
@@TheAncientAstronomer it said in the video, is not about winning, is about being brave enough to participate. ofc there could be considered a winner and a loser but i think is not fair to if is not the point of the match.
the rest of the things you said are absolutely true and i agree. Nobody wants to die but we do, and is important to know if your conviction is strong enough to fight and die for it.
@@redwojak5182It was and still is,dependent of one's fraternity, if you going to get extra XP for winning 😁
But regardless, getting out of a duel,without a scar,definitely gave you the right to say,yep I won this one.
It has clearly always been about bragging rights...
Just got my first one yesterday haha! Nice video very well made. Greetings from Germany
My father did Mensur too. But I have to say that the safety only increased during training. They fight without safety to this day.
Add it to the pile of “why women live longer.” 😂
Im german and it’s still common today. It’s way safer but the cheeks are not protected because the possibility of getting injured is a big part of it. You can’t be brave if you have nothing to loose or to fear.
For real? There's a very popular (concerningly so) comment in here claiming that because they banned the sport, the Nazis may be "morally superior to modern times." Whatever that means. The people who systematically murdered millions of other people. But hey, they banned that sport, so they had that going for them. Didn't stick, though, if what you're saying is true. I'm thinking maybe the sport doesn't have any moral significance to begin with. It's been this long and y'all come to the conclusion that it's fine?
If the scars are signs of bravery, and bravery is what you seek to proof, getting the scar cannot be called losing something.
So this is a bit of self deception, isn't it?
@@d.h.1999 the intention is not to get a scar but to face the risk of getting one. But yes, many people hope to get a scar to show off even though the Mensur is not meant for that.
thank you for providing the answer first and the explanation after
Thats interesting all these time I thought the German officer got their scars from being in combat. I didnt expect this.
I mean it's a combat of sorts
@@jimmy12347654 not even close,in a duel no one wants to kill you.
@@mojewjewjew4420 no one is trying to kill you in UFC or boxing but still a combat of a sort
@@jimmy12347654 you dont get it, i mean in real combat vs "combat" of fencing.
When i was young, my German Mom always told me to stay away from Men that have a Schmiss. Fraternity people are dangerous, she said. Always took that to heart
I didn't even need to watch the video, Skorzeny was one of many who had these scars. He said it taught him to be aggressive in battle, always 'attack the head'.
Doesn't every fencing manual notes the head as the primary target anyway
@@SamuraiAkechi Have you never watch the Olympics fencing?
@@davejohns6694 I don't care for olympic fencing tbh. I was doing HEMA for several years, and clubbing someone on the head with a sword-shaped flexible steel bar is the way to go, as long as you have anything longer than a dagger
@@SamuraiAkechi I didn't put forward a generalised comment, and no, not every manual suggests a head attack, hence my reference to the Olympics. In fact competitive fencing in general.
I liked that you started your vid by replying to the question in the title of the video. Straight to the point. I didn't watch the vid, anyway i use adblock, but i dropped a like only for the reason that I got the info I came for wery quickly. Bravo
Joker: do you know where I got this scars
Me: mensure?
Joker: mensure
There is one person I know that literally fought around 12 matches for his mensur organisation. This is far from normal by the way as most people that fence only fight two matches in their lifes (the reason being that two matches are required to become respected members of the organisations). That one guy has his entire face covered in scars. He is a lifetime member of extraordinary honor to his organisation because he has earned such a reputation for himself and his folks. One information I'd add to the video: There are different types of sabres, varying in weight and size. They go from 500 grams to 5 kgs. Depending on which one you use, the probability of getting nasty scars is much higher. Needless to say, that guy I know went the extra mile to always fight with the heaviest sabres allowed.
„extraordinary honor“…more like extraordinary retarded
Extraordinary honor or merely a masochist/endorphin junkie?
We see the same with tattoo addicts today though.
@@animal0mother Both. He is a close friend of my father and likes to go on adventure trips to deserts and other unconventional places. His hobby is parachuting and partying (at least it used to be back then). Nowadays he has gotten a bit more relaxed. But still, despite his adrenaline addiction that guy is very respected among his fraternity. He literally sacrificed his studies for the ability to train fencing for five hours a day. People didn't want to face him in a match as he was a left-handed fighter, too.
@@evilcatsofdoom1726 And still his face looks like a cutting block? G'schichtn ausm Paulanergarten
Them bringing it back but making it "safer" just completely ruins the entire point of the sport. If there is no risk, there is no reward.
What are you talking about? It still exists and is done with only eye and nose protection, nothing has changed
heard this from my brother who is into sword fighting and by extension some fencing: since the Germans also believed having a larger scar means you remained still for the cut to go deeper, showing more courage, some German fencer used to prop wounds open on their face with horse hairs so the wound would leave behind a larger scar, honestly kind of metal if you ask me
I always thought the scars gave them character. now it makes alot of sense.
thanks for spending soo much time making this ❤
In one of the Flashman books by George McDonald Fraser, supercoward Harry Flashman has the scars for a very nefarious reason!
My dad used to read those Flashman books.Grandpa,s cousin was Generaloberst Carl Hilpert , Commander of Army Group Courland on the Eastern Front.Before that he was chief of staff to two field Marshalls von Witzelbein and von Runstedt in the West.Tnete are several photos of him, may look and see if I can find any scars.Both his sons Ludwig and Phillip were also officers.
The German pilot in The Three Amigos had a Mensur scar on his left cheek.
Perfect exactly how I feel about scars. They are not ugly. They show that you survived. You took the hit, but you're still standing!
Congratulations, you survived a hit of a stationary helicopter blade, im proud you put yourself in that situation in the first place.
@@yohaAltA little angry are we?
Thats a really specific yet embarrassing reason for a scar. Is that personal experience talking lol@yohaAlt
facial scar respected by men : admired by females
My roommate used to fence, and he was the first guy who told me this is a thing.
I read somewhere that they would often be stitched up and then afterwards rip the stitches out to make sure the scar was more visible. Oh - I see someone is pretty much said this - Oh well.😀
I remember seeing a Tv segment about this in the early 1990s. Traditional dueling was supposed to have gone underground and was still practiced at that point.
And quite possibly scars from combat, German Officers actually led their men into combat....so there's that.
Since I have one of this so called "Schmiss" myself yes this is still a thing to this day.
Also the Rules may vary depending on the regional Rules so does the Protection.
Always protected are the eyes, the nose and neck and in most regions the ears.
Also it is only allowed to aim for the head and if "Tief Partie" with "low" hits the left check if both are right handed . To hit the right check is forbidden cause you cant guard it. Also there are many strict rules that are to follow to ensure that only clean cuts are a posibly outcome if you get hit.
There is much more about this and it is very complex also there are difference between "Pflicht" Mandatory Mensur and a Personal one .
It is meant to strenghen youre character and stay silent don't do illegal hits during a "relative " safe match between u and another one who is at the same level if paired correctly and as it should be in the "Pflicht" ones .
Also no not all german fraternities are right winged or nazi affiliated thats also bias because its old an has historical background.
Also they say its sexist because in "schlagende Verbindungen " there are only male members. Thats for one we have "Anstand " decency and don't want to harm women cause who knows decensy you don't harm children , don't hit women and have respect for elders. Also there are biological diferences and no I don't want to discuss this hornet nest deeper.
Sadly there are of course black sheeps in these that are in this political spectrum but at least where I was they were frowned upon and not liked.
Are there equivalent clubs, like with other sports, for women to face other women in Mensur? Surely if women wanted to face off against each other they’d be on an even playing field, social and physical.
@@Axqu7227 if I remember correctly there are two female fraterneties that practice it but not doing a Mensur there are also non fencing Verbindungen with different other main activitys some are Christian, there are some that are focusing on singing called Sängerschaft or sport in general "Turnerschaft "and there are female only or even mixed gender ones where the stereotype is they are having sex with eachother . Well there are stereotypes and Prejudices about the Various sorts of "Verbindungen " some are Political like "Burschenschaften" there is many stuff
Its not only german officers.its about big number of students over all.
Me myself i am a corps student as well. I fought 6 Mensuren over all and have no bad scars at all.
Its about tradition, honor and the feeling:There are bad things in life, but you can solve everything.
Any questions?
3:40 Why would one part take in such a sport if not for the scar?
a very Germanic tradition , the will to show courage in extreme ways