Great stuff again! It’s like you reached into my brain and plucked out all the elements that bothered me about recent AC having been a huge fan from the beginning. Really appreciate these thoughtful and nuanced takes 🙌🏻
Ayeee glad you’re enjoying the content!(: I’m actually a fan of the rpg creed games! The choice system was just so unnecessary imo! Origins did it best!
@@CharlieAndLuke Yeah same - I still enjoy them despite preferring the previous narrative style. I do like the skill tree stuff, I feel like that's my ideal middle ground. Give us a strong canon story, but let us play it out in our own style within the established parameters of the story. Tricky balancing act to be fair!
I really like your videos ... I noticed u mentioned Stardew and how what u say to the characters affects the story, but the thing is that u can start and restart your friendship with the villagers at any point, you can watch Penny's 2❤ where she helps George, and pick the bad answer, not talk to her again, the give her a melon for her birthday and get the 4💖 scene like nothing happened, you can marry and divorce the same person as many times as u want for a bit of cash... I feel like is not that consecuencial...
This is true yeah! I meant it more in the sense that it will take longer to reach higher goals with them if you don’t capitalise on things like consistent efforts and talk to them regularly which I still think is quite reflective of reality! Saying a mean thing to someone doesn’t automatically ruin all friendships permanently and if you do mess up, being consistently good to that person proves you’ve changed and regret doing so, it’s a very simple version of reality but it still lines up well enough for a video game imo (:
One game where your choices sadly don't matter as much as it seems is Katana Zero. It has a really charming dialogue system, where you are able to interrupt the other person as they're speaking. But the story (while really engaging) is pretty linear, and your choices only change very minor things. The only real meaty difference is that you can unlock a secret boss fight if you make specific choices all throughout the game.
I know this is missing the point, but it's kinda funny to think that having a completely gay character in Odyssey would probably desync the Animus because, like, they have to become an ancestor somehow
I'm speaking as someone who knows nothing about this so could totally be wrong but could they not still be ancestors through cousins/brothers/sisters etc.?
I would love to see your take on the last of us 2 ending. A lot of people said that if we were offered the choice at the end it would have made the ending feel more conclusive and satisfying. I'd also love to see your take on the farcry 3 ending as that one was also pretty ambiguous as either could easily be cannon. I feel like you would present some interesting arguments for either side and I would like to hear your opinion.
Interesting! I don’t have much experience with either of those franchises unfortunately so couldn’t say for sure but as a general rule, if choices are a consistent through the game/series then I don’t think canon endings matter as much and whatever you chose CAN be satisfying. Odyssey bothered me because creed has (tried anyway) to cement a very concrete timeline of events and never had multiple routes before. GOT bothered me because it was once in an otherwise very committed narrative. So my opinion on those two franchises would probably come down to those factors! Form my limited knowledge, far cry is more anthology based and has you playing fairly blank/mute slates most of the time so I think ambiguous canon is totally fine! The last of us, choices don’t affect the plot from what I’ve heard and I think for a game of that style that’s so cinematic and has a narrative it wants to tell; that’s exactly how it should be. If the ending isn’t what everyone wanted then that’s okay, I’d rather a writer commit to their story than give me the option to change one I don’t like when the game hasn’t made that a mechanic at all so far! But again, I’m running on very limited knowledge of both franchises so grain of salt and all that! Thank you for a super interesting comment!(:
@CharlieAndLuke yeah It's always cool to hear a different perspective when it's thoughtful and well put together. I do understand why developers put the most important moments in their game in the player's hands, it can be really cool when everything builds up to the moment and then you get to choose what happens but I also agree that when continuity is something to consider it can backfire pretty bad. However I don't know if I entirely agree about the narrative bit. when games are entirely cinematic it can feel a bit underwhelming when: final boss then most important moment happens and then credits roll and thats it. >Ok It can feel like a movie which is ok. movies are great but games are entirely interactive so unless it is done really badly like in some of the examples you brought up I don't think there's that much wrong with giving the players a final choice I'll use farcry 3 as an example again (because it's the best one, I'm Abit biased) when farcry 3 ended and I chose to spare the girl I left the game feeling like not only had i been In the shoes of Jason but Jason's friends were alive because of my choice. It gives the players just a tiny bit of agency before the credits roll that makes them feel like they made a mark on the game's world. You are right that when you cannonise an ending it's lose lose. Because it can feel like that important choice didn't even matter at all But sometimes the choice is just there for the player to see what would happen even if it doesn't make a lot of sense in context. I know half the reason games are so fun is because we get to constantly ask: what happens if I do this? Not to be taken super serious and I don't think too much is lost when those endings happen. What I'm trying to say is it could have (and has in stronger narratives) worked even in something as cinematic as the last of us because the ending choice would have made sense for the characters and the context no matter what the players choose. Those I feel are the most powerful. The ones where the pendulum could swing either way and you get to choose. Not sure if I made a ton of sense but tell me when you agree or disagree with. Definitely subscribing this was really interesting
@@funkey6737 Totally agree on the far cry comment and again, in a game like that where you play as a mostly blank character within a series that doesn't care about timelines and canon, that's completely fine! I think having agency over your choices is very appropriate there! Context is everything, choice systems aren't bad and in a lot of games, really enrich the experience. That's why this video's title calls out that this is about games where they DON'T belong. It's when your game has a character with a strong personality and history already and is part of a series that places importance on it's lore and timeline that choices feel forced and inconsequential as well as just like a cop out. Odyssey does all of these things and that's why I think it's the worst offender I've played. Thanks for subbing man! glad you enjoyed the content!(:
I think assassins creed is one of the worst games to add those dialogue tree mechanics to, it’s actually why I stopped playing them after getting just a little bit into Odyssey and dropping it. as you said it’s a historical event being told basically. It should always have one protagonist (ezio, Kassandra etc) and not for nothing but iirc the way the animus worked was through like DNA right? That would make all characters have to have a hetero romance at least one time to have a descendants, biological ones. even if they themselves are therefor bi.
Great stuff again! It’s like you reached into my brain and plucked out all the elements that bothered me about recent AC having been a huge fan from the beginning.
Really appreciate these thoughtful and nuanced takes 🙌🏻
Ayeee glad you’re enjoying the content!(: I’m actually a fan of the rpg creed games! The choice system was just so unnecessary imo! Origins did it best!
@@CharlieAndLuke Yeah same - I still enjoy them despite preferring the previous narrative style. I do like the skill tree stuff, I feel like that's my ideal middle ground. Give us a strong canon story, but let us play it out in our own style within the established parameters of the story. Tricky balancing act to be fair!
I found my new favorite channel man !! Great stuff
ayee glad you enjoyed it!(:
Same :333
I really like your videos ... I noticed u mentioned Stardew and how what u say to the characters affects the story, but the thing is that u can start and restart your friendship with the villagers at any point, you can watch Penny's 2❤ where she helps George, and pick the bad answer, not talk to her again, the give her a melon for her birthday and get the 4💖 scene like nothing happened, you can marry and divorce the same person as many times as u want for a bit of cash... I feel like is not that consecuencial...
This is true yeah! I meant it more in the sense that it will take longer to reach higher goals with them if you don’t capitalise on things like consistent efforts and talk to them regularly which I still think is quite reflective of reality! Saying a mean thing to someone doesn’t automatically ruin all friendships permanently and if you do mess up, being consistently good to that person proves you’ve changed and regret doing so, it’s a very simple version of reality but it still lines up well enough for a video game imo (:
One game where your choices sadly don't matter as much as it seems is Katana Zero. It has a really charming dialogue system, where you are able to interrupt the other person as they're speaking. But the story (while really engaging) is pretty linear, and your choices only change very minor things. The only real meaty difference is that you can unlock a secret boss fight if you make specific choices all throughout the game.
I know this is missing the point, but it's kinda funny to think that having a completely gay character in Odyssey would probably desync the Animus because, like, they have to become an ancestor somehow
I'm speaking as someone who knows nothing about this so could totally be wrong but could they not still be ancestors through cousins/brothers/sisters etc.?
I would love to see your take on the last of us 2 ending. A lot of people said that if we were offered the choice at the end it would have made the ending feel more conclusive and satisfying.
I'd also love to see your take on the farcry 3 ending as that one was also pretty ambiguous as either could easily be cannon. I feel like you would present some interesting arguments for either side and I would like to hear your opinion.
Interesting! I don’t have much experience with either of those franchises unfortunately so couldn’t say for sure but as a general rule, if choices are a consistent through the game/series then I don’t think canon endings matter as much and whatever you chose CAN be satisfying. Odyssey bothered me because creed has (tried anyway) to cement a very concrete timeline of events and never had multiple routes before. GOT bothered me because it was once in an otherwise very committed narrative.
So my opinion on those two franchises would probably come down to those factors!
Form my limited knowledge, far cry is more anthology based and has you playing fairly blank/mute slates most of the time so I think ambiguous canon is totally fine!
The last of us, choices don’t affect the plot from what I’ve heard and I think for a game of that style that’s so cinematic and has a narrative it wants to tell; that’s exactly how it should be. If the ending isn’t what everyone wanted then that’s okay, I’d rather a writer commit to their story than give me the option to change one I don’t like when the game hasn’t made that a mechanic at all so far!
But again, I’m running on very limited knowledge of both franchises so grain of salt and all that!
Thank you for a super interesting comment!(:
@CharlieAndLuke yeah It's always cool to hear a different perspective when it's thoughtful and well put together. I do understand why developers put the most important moments in their game in the player's hands, it can be really cool when everything builds up to the moment and then you get to choose what happens but I also agree that when continuity is something to consider it can backfire pretty bad.
However I don't know if I entirely agree about the narrative bit. when games are entirely cinematic it can feel a bit underwhelming when: final boss then most important moment happens and then credits roll and thats it. >Ok
It can feel like a movie which is ok. movies are great but games are entirely interactive so unless it is done really badly like in some of the examples you brought up I don't think there's that much wrong with giving the players a final choice
I'll use farcry 3 as an example again (because it's the best one, I'm Abit biased) when farcry 3 ended and I chose to spare the girl I left the game feeling like not only had i been In the shoes of Jason but Jason's friends were alive because of my choice.
It gives the players just a tiny bit of agency before the credits roll that makes them feel like they made a mark on the game's world.
You are right that when you cannonise an ending it's lose lose.
Because it can feel like that important choice didn't even matter at all
But sometimes the choice is just there for the player to see what would happen even if it doesn't make a lot of sense in context. I know half the reason games are so fun is because we get to constantly ask: what happens if I do this?
Not to be taken super serious and I don't think too much is lost when those endings happen.
What I'm trying to say is it could have (and has in stronger narratives) worked even in something as cinematic as the last of us because the ending choice would have made sense for the characters and the context no matter what the players choose. Those I feel are the most powerful. The ones where the pendulum could swing either way and you get to choose.
Not sure if I made a ton of sense but tell me when you agree or disagree with. Definitely subscribing this was really interesting
@@funkey6737 Totally agree on the far cry comment and again, in a game like that where you play as a mostly blank character within a series that doesn't care about timelines and canon, that's completely fine! I think having agency over your choices is very appropriate there!
Context is everything, choice systems aren't bad and in a lot of games, really enrich the experience. That's why this video's title calls out that this is about games where they DON'T belong.
It's when your game has a character with a strong personality and history already and is part of a series that places importance on it's lore and timeline that choices feel forced and inconsequential as well as just like a cop out.
Odyssey does all of these things and that's why I think it's the worst offender I've played.
Thanks for subbing man! glad you enjoyed the content!(:
This video was too good for the amount of views it has, so I am leaving a comment to help a lil.
Thank you so much!! (:
I think assassins creed is one of the worst games to add those dialogue tree mechanics to, it’s actually why I stopped playing them after getting just a little bit into Odyssey and dropping it. as you said it’s a historical event being told basically. It should always have one protagonist (ezio, Kassandra etc) and not for nothing but iirc the way the animus worked was through like DNA right? That would make all characters have to have a hetero romance at least one time to have a descendants, biological ones. even if they themselves are therefor bi.