i agree with you on one point! but if you wanna see something about carbon, check the video: megafactories lexus lfa! you see how they layer it and learn a lot about it!
@Dryzaum though is necessary to say that titanium oxidizes on air at 660ºC and reacts with nitrogen over 800ºC, that's why titanium is not used in turbines blades of aircraft, neither on combustion chambers or in the heat part of turbochargers of vehicle, For that purpose are used cromiun-nickel, niobium-molibdenum, carbon/boron cerments etc. Titanium is used in compressor section and as structural support.
well unless you have a huge oven home and vac bags you can't do the repair home... and as for the look of the CF weave will be impossible to match but if the car has paint on it you will never be able to tell the difference... and as for the strength the CF will retain all of its strength after a repair just like glass fiber... and just like glass fiber you don't need to replace the whole part but you can patch it up then apply filler were needed and paint
I know what you mean, I certainly would have respect to approach a machine with a tie. But it isn't like he is bowing towards the machine. ;-) I think he knows those machines very well.
First off if it isnt about hardness but about tensile strength, density and stiffnes. As for those regular carbon fiber excels that of glass fiber by about 20%, is lighter by 20% or more and is 4 times stiffer (elongation over stress). There is a good reason for using it.
@00Mass00 Carbon fiber gets it's name from the fact that it is mostly composed of carbon atoms. Carbon is an element (atomic number 6), it's name comes from the Latin "Carbo", meaning coal. Carbon fiber does not carbonize, because it already is carbon. (Carbonization is when an organic material containing carbon is heated and releases that carbon.) Carbon fiber sublimates (transitions from a solid directly to a gas) at 3642ºC. Some carbon composites are heat resistant (carbon-carbon) some aren't
it helped in my report in materials engineering. It's not boring, try to explore further material from carbon fiber. Your may not be interested but see automobile parts are made from carbon fiber. It's amazing how the strength of materials come into a not expected one.
@Nairuulagch can't be burned, in the process the fiber is heated and quenched at 3000ºC, so if you put a zippo to a wire it turns red but doesn't burn because is already burned, more heat 4800ºC? it sublimates.
carbon fiber repair is done similar to glass fiber so a specialist is not required... and repair cost may not be as expensive as you think but it still is costly... and when it comes to safety CF is much better cause in NCAP rating the CF cars are so strong one car can be used for all the test where as steel cars can only stand up to one test before being written off....
When will they understand we don't want a carbon fiber part that's as strong as steel, but a part that is stronger than steel? Fex, put a few extra layers in that roof and sell it as a safety-feature (no pole is going to come through that roof, impaling your loved ones, if you land upsidedown at the side of the road). But a good video nonetheless! Very clever that guy who thought out that robot that makes the carbon composite roof, get him to think up robots that make other parts aswell!
@Nairuulagch Carbon fiber can not burn.. it only carbonizes thats where it gets his name from :) thats whats gives the material its great stiffness and strength.. however it takes about 3000 degrees to do so, and a lot of time(specially high modulus carbon).. that's why its so expensive
Oxidising from Polyacrylonitrile to the carbon fiber precursor, it's done by heating in an oven. Then the precursor is heated in a vacuum oven at a much higher temperature to make the final CF product (done in a vacuum otherwise the CF would oxidise further and just get turned into CO2 and ash)
To make something out of a steel or aluminum alloy, you use perhaps two or three automated process. Carbon fibre manufacturing uses at least half a dozen individual process plus a huge amount of manual labour during set-up and transition between these processes. It takes a 45 minutes to weld an Aluminum bicycle frame together by hand. It takes several hours just to lay up the layers of carbon fibre in a mold to make a single tube of a bicycle frame, plus all of the work done to make those sheets
@00Mass00 imm, which is the time it takes to transform some quantity of polyacrilonitrile into carbo fiber through heat?, hours, weeks, months?. The process seems to be simple but slow. Thomas Alba Edison created some rough type of carbon wire. 180ºC, 240ºC, 1000ºC on Argon atmosphere, 2400ºC, 3000ºC.
Why isn't it cheaper to do everything in one area from precursor to sheets of carbon fiber? All that shiping japan to the uk to germany must be expensive?
ok there trying to be as green as they can during manufacturing , i kindah wonder how long it takes for carbon fiber to desolve or if its possible to reuse the material like you can aluminium or metal
+watahyahknow This is not a foundry. They do not have "dirty processes" in their facilities. The only reason (none really) they talk about a "carbon foot print" (which nobody has ever seen---like a real "Bigfoot" foot print), is because their processes take a lot of energy,---that wind mills and solar can not possibly provide (they had to go hydro---and used that for their relocation, and probably lucky they found one). I think it is time for the citizens of the world to wonder,--"Is this green movement thing really about saving nature, or destroying our wealth making capabilities?" If you compared the decline of nature to the decline of the global economy for any citizenry in the world (over the last 40 years)--which is worse? Have you ever seen a dictatorship who let their citizenry get wealthy with a free market?
Have to first remove the resin with pyrolitic decomposition (basically vaporizes all the organic resin in an oxygen free atmosphere then burns them to vaporize the resin of the next piece of carbon fiber) It is then shredded. It is then only used to reinforce plastics or concrete because it's is no longer continuous lengths
The biggest issue with using carbon fibre components like masts and booms for racing yachts is that the component explodes when its resistance to stress or impact is exceeded and carbon shards explode everywhere. How to contain that is a big challenge.
@AZURA888 So the exhaust dont reach that levels of temperature? Or that ''titanium exhaust" that they use in the Zonda, for instance, is a blend of titanium with something else?
+abdollar34 Its called a polymer spinning process. Where the polyacrylonitrile (PAN) is extruded through a spinnerete and stretched through several drives to produce the required dpf of a fiber. these strands you speak about depends on the spinnerete i.e; a single yarn may contain 3000, 6000, 12000 filaments. The final yarn you get is called SAF( special acrylo fiber).This SAF is subjected to oxidation and rest is shown in the video. Finally you get the CF
+Manu Prasad +JL S great answers thx guys! I was irritated because I thought the white precursor which is shown in the creel area is sth like a flat tape thing that is turned into thin filaments and tows later in the process...
Why is it necessary to to send the fibres for such long runs whether vertical or horizontal. Obviously there must be a reason but it can't just be tension eh?
I'm absolutely amazed at the lack of human intervention in the entire process. I wonder how many human actions were left out because they don't look as good on camera...
would you want to move a roof part from one spot to another all day every day? robotics is more precise and efficient, also cheaper. that's just how it goes.
Uh. What? I was just commenting on the impressive degree of automation. Not sure why you have a hard-on for people who you perceive to be anti-automation. Go argue at a wall, or something, it will be more interested.
Carbon fiber will never become cheap. One neglects to mention that the entire process you see actually took 3-5 months from the base acrylonitrile to a complete carbon fiber panel. Not to mention there are less than 12 companies capable of manufacturing it in the world and each of them have a unique recipe guaranteeing their products while similar but not equally alike.
It's been 60 years since carbon fiber was invented. Can you name a man-made material that depreciate in costs like CF? I thought so. Understood the process, think before you speak. CF is not plastic or digital watches or even silicone.
B007 don't be so doubtful. there will always be newer and better production machines coming out. they can make something sooner or later that will make the production of carbon fiber much quicker or easier than it is now.
Didnt you read my post? I said 3-5 months from the base acrylonitrile. btw your post pretty much explains my post. Actually you're agreeing with me which is funny since you obviously didnt read or understand my post.
Man, exhaust systems are NOT made of carbon fiber at all. They are titanium. This cooking thing is calculated and once cooled down it cant be heated again. I dont know exactly what happen to it but i think it looses its properties. Or its appearance's whatever. Mercedes didnt used carbon fiber in some pannels at the front of their Mclaren SLR because of the temperature of the engine. Obviously is no where near the 3000 celsius.
You do notice that Japan brands don't follow European brands, right? Japanese brands inovate like European brands, just there are more or less merchandising.
Mario Trevino-Gonzalez your logic: I just destroyed 3 of my 4 neurones figuring out how to post a comment on youtube. Now I should destroy the other one attempting to contemplate how another human's mind operates.
It sure looks like an E92 M3 roof panel. The CF roof for the latest M6 has a double bubble in the top. The one in this video does not have that distinct feature.
aryan adibmehr E92 is merely the designation given for that particular generation of M3. First generation M3 is the E30 - second generation is the E36 - third generation M3 is the E46 - 4th generation M3 is the E92 (E90 was the sedan and E93 was the convertible version - while the current generation has been split into the M3(sedan F80) and now M4 (coupe F82 and F83 convertible). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3
this video is a must for students who are learning how to manufacture products of composites..
love this video. for me the best part is the fibres progressively getting darker as the move through the rollers :D
Really interesting and seems even more detailed than what Discovery shows on the topic.
i agree with you on one point! but if you wanna see something about carbon, check the video: megafactories lexus lfa! you see how they layer it and learn a lot about it!
@Dryzaum though is necessary to say that titanium oxidizes on air at 660ºC and reacts with nitrogen over 800ºC, that's why titanium is not used in turbines blades of aircraft, neither on combustion chambers or in the heat part of turbochargers of vehicle, For that purpose are used cromiun-nickel, niobium-molibdenum, carbon/boron cerments etc. Titanium is used in compressor section and as structural support.
Such a sick process and overall its just amazing in general that they can actually do this sort of thing
well unless you have a huge oven home and vac bags you can't do the repair home... and as for the look of the CF weave will be impossible to match but if the car has paint on it you will never be able to tell the difference... and as for the strength the CF will retain all of its strength after a repair just like glass fiber... and just like glass fiber you don't need to replace the whole part but you can patch it up then apply filler were needed and paint
8:24 brave Germany, wearing a "tie" and standing next to a rolling machine.
I know what you mean, I certainly would have respect to approach a machine with a tie.
But it isn't like he is bowing towards the machine. ;-) I think he knows those machines very well.
First off if it isnt about hardness but about tensile strength, density and stiffnes. As for those regular carbon fiber excels that of glass fiber by about 20%, is lighter by 20% or more and is 4 times stiffer (elongation over stress). There is a good reason for using it.
@00Mass00 Carbon fiber gets it's name from the fact that it is mostly composed of carbon atoms. Carbon is an element (atomic number 6), it's name comes from the Latin "Carbo", meaning coal. Carbon fiber does not carbonize, because it already is carbon. (Carbonization is when an organic material containing carbon is heated and releases that carbon.) Carbon fiber sublimates (transitions from a solid directly to a gas) at 3642ºC. Some carbon composites are heat resistant (carbon-carbon) some aren't
Hi are you carbon expert?
Thanks for the explanation. Do you are Chemical engineer PhD. ?
it helped in my report in materials engineering. It's not boring, try to explore further material from carbon fiber. Your may not be interested but see automobile parts are made from carbon fiber. It's amazing how the strength of materials come into a not expected one.
@Nairuulagch can't be burned, in the process the fiber is heated and quenched at 3000ºC, so if you put a zippo to a wire it turns red but doesn't burn because is already burned, more heat 4800ºC? it sublimates.
AZR NSMX1 have you seen the video of burning carbon fiber rod?
carbon fiber repair is done similar to glass fiber so a specialist is not required... and repair cost may not be as expensive as you think but it still is costly... and when it comes to safety CF is much better cause in NCAP rating the CF cars are so strong one car can be used for all the test where as steel cars can only stand up to one test before being written off....
Oxidizing means removing the electrons or decreasing the electropositive element or radical of the material
The best thing in this video was the robotic arms in the end , they seem to be more complex then the carbon fibre ...
so when on sale we will see first fully carbon fibre BMW? seems like serious preparations are very advanced...
the carbon fiber strands are weaved by many different companies as in Hexcel, Sigmatex and other
Duane Bowen hi can i ask you a question?
When will they understand we don't want a carbon fiber part that's as strong as steel, but a part that is stronger than steel? Fex, put a few extra layers in that roof and sell it as a safety-feature (no pole is going to come through that roof, impaling your loved ones, if you land upsidedown at the side of the road). But a good video nonetheless! Very clever that guy who thought out that robot that makes the carbon composite roof, get him to think up robots that make other parts aswell!
@Nairuulagch Carbon fiber can not burn.. it only carbonizes thats where it gets his name from :) thats whats gives the material its great stiffness and strength.. however it takes about 3000 degrees to do so, and a lot of time(specially high modulus carbon).. that's why its so expensive
00Mass00 have you seen the vid of burning carbonfiber rod?
What do you mean by oxidization process? Oxidizing from what to what?
Look it up, meat head.
Oxidising from Polyacrylonitrile to the carbon fiber precursor, it's done by heating in an oven. Then the precursor is heated in a vacuum oven at a much higher temperature to make the final CF product (done in a vacuum otherwise the CF would oxidise further and just get turned into CO2 and ash)
What makes the color change? They were white at first beginning.
Nice video..thx
To make something out of a steel or aluminum alloy, you use perhaps two or three automated process. Carbon fibre manufacturing uses at least half a dozen individual process plus a huge amount of manual labour during set-up and transition between these processes. It takes a 45 minutes to weld an Aluminum bicycle frame together by hand. It takes several hours just to lay up the layers of carbon fibre in a mold to make a single tube of a bicycle frame, plus all of the work done to make those sheets
@Nairuulagch dude a lot of exhaust systems are made from carbon
guess i missed it, but why is it pulled over such long distances
@00Mass00 imm, which is the time it takes to transform some quantity of polyacrilonitrile into carbo fiber through heat?, hours, weeks, months?. The process seems to be simple but slow. Thomas Alba Edison created some rough type of carbon wire. 180ºC, 240ºC, 1000ºC on Argon atmosphere, 2400ºC, 3000ºC.
Nice focus on carbon footprint ;-)
this video was as exciting as watching grass grow.
Why isn't it cheaper to do everything in one area from precursor to sheets of carbon fiber?
All that shiping japan to the uk to germany must be expensive?
Nothing like a Dodge commercial in the middle of a BMW corporate video.
ok there trying to be as green as they can during manufacturing , i kindah wonder how long it takes for carbon fiber to desolve or if its possible to reuse the material like you can aluminium or metal
+watahyahknow
This is not a foundry. They do not have "dirty processes" in their facilities. The only reason (none really) they talk about a "carbon foot print" (which nobody has ever seen---like a real "Bigfoot" foot print), is because their processes take a lot of energy,---that wind mills and solar can not possibly provide (they had to go hydro---and used that for their relocation, and probably lucky they found one).
I think it is time for the citizens of the world to wonder,--"Is this green movement thing really about saving nature, or destroying our wealth making capabilities?"
If you compared the decline of nature to the decline of the global economy for any citizenry in the world (over the last 40 years)--which is worse?
Have you ever seen a dictatorship who let their citizenry get wealthy with a free market?
Have to first remove the resin with pyrolitic decomposition (basically vaporizes all the organic resin in an oxygen free atmosphere then burns them to vaporize the resin of the next piece of carbon fiber) It is then shredded. It is then only used to reinforce plastics or concrete because it's is no longer continuous lengths
cool wonder if that system uses a lot of energy though , it IS interesting to know it CAN be done though
watahyahknow Recycling doesn't use much energy (the removal of the resin is usually self-sufficient)
Thank Sir
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing this with the public. It sparks my imagination! Can I assume that the AC45 boats get the carbon from here?
The biggest issue with using carbon fibre components like masts and booms for racing yachts is that the component explodes when its resistance to stress or impact is exceeded and carbon shards explode everywhere. How to contain that is a big challenge.
Does Carbotanium also do that?
@AZURA888 So the exhaust dont reach that levels of temperature? Or that ''titanium exhaust" that they use in the Zonda, for instance, is a blend of titanium with something else?
I wanna buy one roll of cloth
Brilliant!
I love carbon fiber interior.
I wonder why they used plain weave instead of uni directional weave, plain is not as strong.
Why is this not done in Germany from start to finish??
nice
Thank You For The Information
Greetings Toyota,
Really cool.
German know their shit, precision and engeneering marvel!
This reminds me of the droid factories in star wars lol.. they even make all the same sounds too lol
About 2013 with the introduction of i3.
From Japan to Seattle to Germany...
At what point of the process are carbon fiber strands bundled into rovings?
Can anyone tell? Is it during the oxidation?
+abdollar34 Its called a polymer spinning process. Where the polyacrylonitrile (PAN) is extruded through a spinnerete and stretched through several drives to produce the required dpf of a fiber. these strands you speak about depends on the spinnerete i.e; a single yarn may contain 3000, 6000, 12000 filaments. The final yarn you get is called SAF( special acrylo fiber).This SAF is subjected to oxidation and rest is shown in the video. Finally you get the CF
+Manu Prasad +JL S great answers thx guys!
I was irritated because I thought the white precursor which is shown in the creel area is sth like a flat tape thing that is turned into thin filaments and tows later in the process...
the manager is a bit funny how he finishes his sentences :D
this is good vidio.
Where in japan?
AWESOME !!!!
Super Strong Hair!
heppolt wind turbine the cool thing
Why is it necessary to to send the fibres for such long runs whether vertical or horizontal. Obviously there must be a reason but it can't just be tension eh?
Oxidation and carbonization residence time to capture mechanical and physical properties.
@@josephstorrud8050 Thanks! I watched it again and they allude to that in the beginning
wow, i didnt know anything like that was an hour and a half drive from here. cool, wonder if i can get some blems lol
yeah
how many people does it take to operate the Carbon Fiber line.
Between 4 and 7.
Where are the workers?
Is it BMW policy not to look directly at the camera?
That would be unsettling
just perfect
Is that 48K tow? :O
Looks more like 50k
your right you dont work for lexus you only produce the power plant for them :D
It looks like a mix of textile and steel plants
All that shipping must equate to higher cost of BMW cars.
if you crash your gonna have to buy new steel or plastic ones aswell, tho they are much cheaper.
Didn't know David Lynch did internal work
There are only clients on germany
Maybe stronger and lighter than steel yet very non resistant to heat, easily burns I guess.
www.gpmplus.fr Continuous Fiber Reinforced Thermoplastic Composites Machine
So you got three competing materials in automotive manufacturing - carbon fiber, aluminium, and steel.
Funny he says SGL is enraged about the release of the video, yet SGL has their own channel.... Hmm...
I'm absolutely amazed at the lack of human intervention in the entire process. I wonder how many human actions were left out because they don't look as good on camera...
would you want to move a roof part from one spot to another all day every day?
robotics is more precise and efficient, also cheaper. that's just how it goes.
Uh. What? I was just commenting on the impressive degree of automation. Not sure why you have a hard-on for people who you perceive to be anti-automation. Go argue at a wall, or something, it will be more interested.
CHORISCOPIC
I do this work...... Their plant is so much more high tech than ours.
Carbon fiber will never become cheap. One neglects to mention that the entire process you see actually took 3-5 months from the base acrylonitrile to a complete carbon fiber panel. Not to mention there are less than 12 companies capable of manufacturing it in the world and each of them have a unique recipe guaranteeing their products while similar but not equally alike.
and none of those factors will ever change, for as long as humanity exists.
It's been 60 years since carbon fiber was invented. Can you name a man-made material that depreciate in costs like CF?
I thought so. Understood the process, think before you speak. CF is not plastic or digital watches or even silicone.
B007 I'm sorry you think 60 yrs is a long time. You did say NEVER.
B007 don't be so doubtful. there will always be newer and better production machines coming out. they can make something sooner or later that will make the production of carbon fiber much quicker or easier than it is now.
Didnt you read my post? I said 3-5 months from the base acrylonitrile.
btw your post pretty much explains my post. Actually you're agreeing with me which is funny since you obviously didnt read or understand my post.
I work at the plant
You are lucky
The one thing i didnt see in the factory, was people, where is all the workers? i only seen one.
why do they all look that nervous in this video?! and that second guy just creeps me out "THIS IS...."
Carbon fiber composites are not harder but stronger(not the same!!)...
Why didn't they just buy from alibaba
because it's raw footage, he didn't edit it, no music, no narrator, nothing
Will ferrer is that you?
Will Ferrell..??!
if he was an awkward and bad actor. wait
0:03 Mr Freeze
Man, exhaust systems are NOT made of carbon fiber at all. They are titanium. This cooking thing is calculated and once cooled down it cant be heated again. I dont know exactly what happen to it but i think it looses its properties. Or its appearance's whatever. Mercedes didnt used carbon fiber in some pannels at the front of their Mclaren SLR because of the temperature of the engine. Obviously is no where near the 3000 celsius.
You do notice that Japan brands don't follow European brands, right? Japanese brands inovate like European brands, just there are more or less merchandising.
why color change? pag ang iron nahaluan ng oxygen, nag iiba ang kulay, prang kinakalawang. parang gnun dn yung concept nun.
This guy looks so smart lol
Did anyone else fall asleep while watching this?
Yeah I did... didn't even make it half way through I dont think now i'm watching it again skipping through the parts that I think I watched.
Means you have been watching too much porn.
this guy's logic: spends almost 15 minutes watching a video just to complain about how boring it was..
mathlover101hotmail Not enough porn lol
Mario Trevino-Gonzalez your logic: I just destroyed 3 of my 4 neurones figuring out how to post a comment on youtube. Now I should destroy the other one attempting to contemplate how another human's mind operates.
Carbon fibers are made in Washington, USA because electricity is cheaper?
Yup
im very surprised that bmw actually produce it internall from scratch, instead of buying it from a supplier
Sgl is their supplier of the raw tow
poly what?
+anon polyacrylonitrile
+anon PAN (poly acrylonitrile) Its a polymer. Acrylonitrile (monomer) undergoes polymerization to give PAN
Moses lake..frickin funny..on the coat tails of boeing i guess..not airbus
reduce carbon foot print by taking that carbon and making fibre out of it!!! HA!
Ste .L The company made the carbon first, before making the fibers.
It looks like sting in the beginning and hair at the end.
Presenter is so funny
so fun to see germans speaking english.
at 1:53 i thought those were condoms xD
You can get carbon fiber condoms.
looks like the m3's roof :)
Those look like M6 roof panels.
It sure looks like an E92 M3 roof panel. The CF roof for the latest M6 has a double bubble in the top. The one in this video does not have that distinct feature.
dont know what E92 means but looks like your the expert bro!
aryan adibmehr E92 is merely the designation given for that particular generation of M3. First generation M3 is the E30 - second generation is the E36 - third generation M3 is the E46 - 4th generation M3 is the E92 (E90 was the sedan and E93 was the convertible version - while the current generation has been split into the M3(sedan F80) and now M4 (coupe F82 and F83 convertible).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3
uh ok, thanks for that.
is it true that bmw is getting rid of the 1,3 and 7 series and replacing them with the 2,4 and 8 series.
BBS rims on an m3 is probably as good as things get on this planet dont you think?