Good video, I only had four objections 1) Sol Brodsky inked a lot of Kirby's early works as did Dick Ayers.. Mr. Brodsky said the the 'rock" appearance of the Thing came later. He was originally covered with the same scaly protection that a dinosaur would have.......2) the difference between the FF and the others was also accented by Kirby with the team NOT having costumes. Stan even bragged about that. Something happened (either Lee or publisher Goodman's insistence) before issue # 3. With the intro of the "flying bathtub" --the original Fantasti-Car-- the team was garbed in uniforms. There is no way to know for sure but Jack's last resistance came when Sue made a costume for Ben and that included a mask. The mask didn't stay and the costume's top was forgotten because it took away from the monstrous appearance that Jack had intended for Ben....... 3) The X-men were NOT originally hated by non-mutants. The military encouraged them in their fight with Magneto (issue 1) and The Vanisher (#2). That plot came in weakly in # 4, and in full strength in # 5 when a mob wanted to attack Magneto's disguised underling, the Toad. This was also Jack's influence...... 4) after reading interviews of Jack and Roz Kirby and some artist contemporaries, I have to cringe when you say "co-create" and put Stan in the mix. There is so much controversy about that. Even with Spider-man, Lee had three different stories on how HE came up with for the character's origin. The last one continues up until today. Stan supposedly saw a fly climbing a wall. Okay, then why didn't he come up with the Amazing Fly-Man? Please don't think that I want to knock a person who cannot stand up for himself today. I think his wit was instrumental in drawing away readers from DC I just wanted to remind you that there are many who will counter the co-creator concept.
Stan literally went with the name Spider-Man because it sounded better as a superhero. Stan made X-Men freaks of society and Claremont evolved the freaks of society into a discrimination theme. Jack Kirby cared more about god stories and epic stories. And Steve Ditko cared more about Objectvist vigilante stories. Stan was the one who cared about making imperfect human superhero stories. The fantastic four powers are literally a reflection of their personality. Reed Richards stretching power is a reflection of his obsessive and clingy personality. Sue Storms invisibility powers is a reflection of her shy and protective personality. Johnny’s fire power is a reflection of his carefree and reckless personality. Ben’s rock body is a reflection of his hardheaded and stone personality. Stan understood that he had to make superheroes relate to human life more by making them more relatable and imperfect. The fantastic four did succeed not just cause they are cosmic adventure superheroes, but because they are superhero they are an imperfect family living with each other who happen to be cosmic adventure superheroes.
@@petermj1098 We can argue about this without convincing each other. You naturally esteem Stan more than I do. You take HIS story. There are differing stories such as Jack being the one in # 3 and 4 making the X-men feared by humans, not Stan. Discrimination was there BEFORE Claremont. You would have to convince me otherwise in the light that Magneto had to rescue Wanda from a mob during a back-story in X-men #4 .... Joe Simon and Jack Kirby came up with a form of Spider-man years before Stan claimed to have invented the character. Jack suggested it to Stan and gave him a few drawn pages of the character, Stan though he looked too Capt America-like and gave the assignment to Steve Ditko. Anyway, I have been a veteran of many "Stan is a scam" vs "Stan is God-like" arguments to know that there will never be a shared consensus
@@henrycuevas2834 Ok but the writing in Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko’s solo work are totally different than when they work with Stan. I really have a hard time being that “they wrote the stories are all along” when the writing of stories and characters are not even the same or similar. Stan still built Marvel after Kirby and Ditko left and people saying Stan had no clue how to write is just absurd even though he brought in and mentored other writers and artists.
@@petermj1098 Again folks want to jump into that rabbit hole. "Writing" involves captions and narration. You can look at what I wrote and you will never see me bash Stan. Plotting is taking the story from the beginning to the middle to the end. Steve in Spider-man 11 started it without any imput from Stan and starting with Spider-man 18 Sitko did it consistantly. If anyone wants to dispute that find someone else other than me.... I've had it after almost 7 years of that crap.
@@henrycuevas2834 Most of Jack Kirby’s characters in his solo work are gods, supernatural or epic based. If Jack Kirby made more characters about imperfect human superheroes in his solo work I would have a better time believing he was writer all along, but he did not and more interested in making epic stories. And Ditko making Objectivist focused vigilantes with a black and white morality. Stan has been consistent about Marvel focusing on imperfect human superheroes even after they left. Like yeah Kirby and Ditko came out with the style and costumes on their own but in terms of CHARACTER I really don’t really see how they came up with it considering they were not interested imperfect superheroes anymore after leaving Marvel.
The only reason Kirby returned to Atlas Comics was because he was broke due to his lawsuits against National Comics and badly needed work . Atlas had recently lost its two key artists so there happened to be a slot for Kirby . The stuff you mention about Stan being the only employee at Atlas seems to be a flat out "invention " on your part . You lost me when you trotted out that silly lie .
These are my sources, @vasp99! - In “American Comics” (2021, p. 158-9), Jeremy Dauber writes about the “Atlas Implosion” of 1957 (Marvel was called Atlas at the time), when they went from over sixty to eight titles: “[Publisher] Goodman was down to a single employee [Stan Lee], who only issued previously commissioned, stockpiled inventory”. - In his well-researched comic book biography of Jack Kirby (2020), Tom Scioli relates the scene of workmen carrying the furniture out, and Kirby telling Lee to hold off on that because, “we can turn things around” (p.’s 101 and again at 105-6).
The Marvel Epic Collections are an awesome way to get into Marvel's heroes!
Yes, those are, indeed, epic! It's how I started reading X-men again
New video! Awesome!
I enjoyed this video.
Another banger of a video!
Marvellous 😊
Good video, I only had four objections 1) Sol Brodsky inked a lot of Kirby's early works as did Dick Ayers.. Mr. Brodsky said the the 'rock" appearance of the Thing came later. He was originally covered with the same scaly protection that a dinosaur would have.......2) the difference between the FF and the others was also accented by Kirby with the team NOT having costumes. Stan even bragged about that. Something happened (either Lee or publisher Goodman's insistence) before issue # 3. With the intro of the "flying bathtub" --the original Fantasti-Car-- the team was garbed in uniforms. There is no way to know for sure but Jack's last resistance came when Sue made a costume for Ben and that included a mask. The mask didn't stay and the costume's top was forgotten because it took away from the monstrous appearance that Jack had intended for Ben....... 3) The X-men were NOT originally hated by non-mutants. The military encouraged them in their fight with Magneto (issue 1) and The Vanisher (#2). That plot came in weakly in # 4, and in full strength in # 5 when a mob wanted to attack Magneto's disguised underling, the Toad. This was also Jack's influence...... 4) after reading interviews of Jack and Roz Kirby and some artist contemporaries, I have to cringe when you say "co-create" and put Stan in the mix. There is so much controversy about that. Even with Spider-man, Lee had three different stories on how HE came up with for the character's origin. The last one continues up until today. Stan supposedly saw a fly climbing a wall. Okay, then why didn't he come up with the Amazing Fly-Man? Please don't think that I want to knock a person who cannot stand up for himself today. I think his wit was instrumental in drawing away readers from DC I just wanted to remind you that there are many who will counter the co-creator concept.
Stan literally went with the name Spider-Man because it sounded better as a superhero. Stan made X-Men freaks of society and Claremont evolved the freaks of society into a discrimination theme.
Jack Kirby cared more about god stories and epic stories. And Steve Ditko cared more about Objectvist vigilante stories. Stan was the one who cared about making imperfect human superhero stories.
The fantastic four powers are literally a reflection of their personality. Reed Richards stretching power is a reflection of his obsessive and clingy personality. Sue Storms invisibility powers is a reflection of her shy and protective personality. Johnny’s fire power is a reflection of his carefree and reckless personality. Ben’s rock body is a reflection of his hardheaded and stone personality. Stan understood that he had to make superheroes relate to human life more by making them more relatable and imperfect.
The fantastic four did succeed not just cause they are cosmic adventure superheroes, but because they are superhero they are an imperfect family living with each other who happen to be cosmic adventure superheroes.
@@petermj1098 We can argue about this without convincing each other. You naturally esteem Stan more than I do. You take HIS story. There are differing stories such as Jack being the one in # 3 and 4 making the X-men feared by humans, not Stan. Discrimination was there BEFORE Claremont. You would have to convince me otherwise in the light that Magneto had to rescue Wanda from a mob during a back-story in X-men #4 .... Joe Simon and Jack Kirby came up with a form of Spider-man years before Stan claimed to have invented the character. Jack suggested it to Stan and gave him a few drawn pages of the character, Stan though he looked too Capt America-like and gave the assignment to Steve Ditko. Anyway, I have been a veteran of many "Stan is a scam" vs "Stan is God-like" arguments to know that there will never be a shared consensus
@@henrycuevas2834 Ok but the writing in Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko’s solo work are totally different than when they work with Stan. I really have a hard time being that “they wrote the stories are all along” when the writing of stories and characters are not even the same or similar. Stan still built Marvel after Kirby and Ditko left and people saying Stan had no clue how to write is just absurd even though he brought in and mentored other writers and artists.
@@petermj1098 Again folks want to jump into that rabbit hole. "Writing" involves captions and narration. You can look at what I wrote and you will never see me bash Stan. Plotting is taking the story from the beginning to the middle to the end. Steve in Spider-man 11 started it without any imput from Stan and starting with Spider-man 18 Sitko did it consistantly. If anyone wants to dispute that find someone else other than me.... I've had it after almost 7 years of that crap.
@@henrycuevas2834 Most of Jack Kirby’s characters in his solo work are gods, supernatural or epic based. If Jack Kirby made more characters about imperfect human superheroes in his solo work I would have a better time believing he was writer all along, but he did not and more interested in making epic stories. And Ditko making Objectivist focused vigilantes with a black and white morality.
Stan has been consistent about Marvel focusing on imperfect human superheroes even after they left. Like yeah Kirby and Ditko came out with the style and costumes on their own but in terms of CHARACTER I really don’t really see how they came up with it considering they were not interested imperfect superheroes anymore after leaving Marvel.
The only reason Kirby returned to Atlas Comics was because he was broke due to his lawsuits against National Comics and badly needed work . Atlas had recently lost its two key artists so there happened to be a slot for Kirby . The stuff you mention about Stan being the only employee at Atlas seems to be a flat out "invention " on your part . You lost me when you trotted out that silly lie .
These are my sources, @vasp99!
- In “American Comics” (2021, p. 158-9), Jeremy Dauber writes about the “Atlas Implosion” of 1957 (Marvel was called Atlas at the time), when they went from over sixty to eight titles: “[Publisher] Goodman was down to a single employee [Stan Lee], who only issued previously commissioned, stockpiled inventory”.
- In his well-researched comic book biography of Jack Kirby (2020), Tom Scioli relates the scene of workmen carrying the furniture out, and Kirby telling Lee to hold off on that because, “we can turn things around” (p.’s 101 and again at 105-6).
:- D