1.6HDi/TDCi oil catch can Update #4 (Peugeot/Citroen/Ford/Volvo)
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- 2 oil catch cans are better than one, but still some oil is passing through. I bit the bullet and bought an original Mann-Hummel Provent 200 to see if this will make things even better.
The car is a Peugeot Partner 1.6HDi (2007; 90bhp; ~105,000 miles or ~170,000 km; no fap/dpf).
The oil catch can installation with all the components I used is here: • 1.6HDi/TDCi improved o...
If you find this video useful, buy me a coffee: www.paypal.com/paypalme/morem...
All my car-related purchases: www.amazon.co.uk/shop/moremol...
The cheap Mann-Hummel oil catch can was Maso (amazon UK): amzn.to/2qeZYuR or ebay: ebay.us/AQpDgh
The second oil catch can is shown in full details here: • Oil Catch Cans Crankca...
00:00 - 00:29 Introduction
00:29 - 00:38 more molecules title
00:39 - 01:30 Word on efficiency
01:30 - 03:35 Air intake
03:35 - 04:43 Turbo
04:43 - 07:05 Cheap Mishimoto catch can
07:05 - 07:20 Blue smoke before oil catch cans
07:20 - 07:49 Blue smoke after oil catch cans
07:49 - 08:35 1st catch can outlet
08:35 - 09:32 Why 2nd catch can is not as efficient
09:32 - 10:14 1st catch can intake
10:14 - 12:06 intercooler pipe
12:06 - 13:35 Original Mann-Hummel Provent 200
13:35 - 14:17 Final words
#HDi #CarMods #OilCatchCan
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You are an inspiration to me. I have a peugeot 407 1.6 HDI and I am planning to install a catch can on it soon. Big thanks for your videos!
Hi Shrav, definitely do it and let me know of any problems. I never thought I could be inspirational, but really glad that the videos help. More videos will come, some good, some not so...
Hey thanks to you More Molecules, I've put an oil catch can in my 2011 Berlingo. I've not driven it much recently though due to the Covid lock down here in Australia but I'm glad to see you're still updating the test on yours :) I'll do a video on it and link it to you when I get around to it :) Thanks for all your effort.
Nice one, hope it catches oil and you enjoy the Berlingo!
wow!! lotsa gold info here!! thank you for the vid!! subbed from -Philippines brother.
Thanks MM for the technical details of not venting to air and I will take your advice. I have a catch can and am debating whether or not to fit it. Copy MH with mesh filter but could also consider fitting genuine MH cartridge. Given the amount of water and contamination you showed in your video it would surely have some benefit. The engine is a Toyota 2.2 D4D which I believe has some internal baffling at top of rocker cover but there is no valve at the outlet. There's a 100mm long 15mm dia pipe leading directly into air inlet pipe so given the free flow through the can it should be ok.
Yes, it will certainly be beneficial. Not too sure if you meant that the originally designed outlet directly vents into the atmosphere. If this is really the case, you would not need a catch can, it is anyway going into the atmosphere, maybe I misunderstood. It probably makes sense to vent it in the air if there is no valve at the crankcase. If it really vents out, the oil catch can will only serve the purpose to not contaminate the atmosphere.
Sorry for confusion. No it vents from rocker cover with no valve directly into turbo inlet pipe between turbo and air filter. So a catch can would therefore presumably reduce contamination feeding into turbo, intercooler etc
@@davidgirvan6007 No worries, yes an oil catch can will reduce contaminants and oil going back in. Interesting, how on the D4D there is no valve, a little bit odd as one would normally not want the spooling turbo sucking everything from the crankcase. I have not done enough testing with the original MH, but preliminary observation suggest not really much difference. Long term, not too sure, the paper filter might get more and more blocked and create a bit of a blockage, but it is a bit of a hunch than anything else.
blue smoke after start might be from valve seals.
after kat is hot, it will mask the smoke and burn it.
Yes it could well be, but I have thought about this before. If you have seen other cars with valve stem seals, on every trafic lights they stop, you get a puff of blue smoke on getting going and this is on every trafic light. I do not get that, it could of course still be the case. There is not cat on my car, so here is nothing to mask it.
Hi MM. Excellent research re catch cans and pressures etc. Can I ask, when you made this update video, did you have the original Mann Hummel insert filter in the MH copy can or the steel gauze type.
Hi david, I had both or did the test with both the steel and the gauze-type filter. It did not make any difference. The pressure from the steel and the gauze is very similar, or there was almost negligent difference.
Thanks. You mentioned you were going to put the genuine Mann Hummel filter and can on, which I assume you have since done. Given that MH say their can is 98% efficient, what's your thoughts on venting it to the air rather than turbo inlet. Apart from the small environmental aspect, would this cause issues with the engine?
@@davidgirvan6007 Yes, I did put it, but then MOT (UK annual test) came and I had to remove it. I bought another car for my wife and was working on that and have not had much time to work more on the 1.6HDi. For the limited amount of time I had the original MH, I did not notice any higher efficiency, although I have not measured it. Apart from the environmental impact, it is not a good idea to vent it outside. The turbo is hooked to the crankcase (kind of) and on spooling up it draws some of the gasses from the crankcase, which is beneficial in all cases. There is a valve, that stops the turbo sucking all the oil from the crankcase, but still some go through. Without this, the crankcase is just left to vent out without active forces (i.e. the turbo). I had some measurements and indeed the crankcase gets negative pressure when the turbo spools (ruclips.net/video/7-sktGy6ifs/видео.html) and some other ways. If venting to atmosphere, the crankcase will always be under positive pressure from the blow-by, which will not be too good in the end.
Why would you filter the fumes/oil on the way in to the catch can? The hose that goes out from the catch can (in to the tip) is where I should have the baffle/filter......In other words, the in & out markings on the catch can is wrong. .....?
Yes, that is correct. That is why I swapped the input/output of one of the oil catch cans. I suspect that it does not matter that much as long as the oil droplets hit the mesh. It makes sense to be at the output, as the flow of oil droplets has cooled down a bit, hence they have also slowed down a bit due to the lower temperature (Brown movement and all) and can be captured by the mesh.
Just came across your videos. Great info and do you think the universal is better and the kkboom due to the restricted brass filter, thx
Hi Ted, good question, but I do not have a very conclusive answer as yet. I am working on testing different oil catch cans. The universal is probably on the lower efficiency as compared to the kkmoon/mishimoto, although the kkmoon is a bit on the restrictive side for the crankcase pressure. If you are willing to take the risk with the more crankcase pressure, definitely use the kkmoon/mishimoto. If not, then the universal as as good as any.
@@moremolecules thx for the reply.
Isn't it better to have the catch can on the warmer side of the engine? If you have it on the cold side you will get more condensation. ...?
Hi Steffan, the catch can relies on condensing the oil. If the temperature of the catch can is warm, it will not condense oil that much. Of course it will condense water as well, but it will condense oil as well. The best is if one can somehow hook the coolant to go around the oil catch can or additional cooler, but obviously that s a bit more complex.
Hi there I have a Nissan Juke Nismo RS 2014 2wheel drive I’m thinking of buying a catch can would u recommend me going for a provent Mann Hummel 200 version 4 or the standard 200 the version for has pressure relief valve on the base of the filter and it’s 150 pounds
The standard 200 should be absolutely fine. I have not heard about version 4. It is a bit expensive. There are two versions of the filter for the 200, one finer and one more coarse. It probably does not matter which one you buy.
Hi, where the bottom nipple of th Mann is connected, please? Thanks.
The bottom is for a hose and you plug it in the crankcase to feed the filtered oil back in. If you do not have an opening in the crankcase, then you could use a hose to collect oil.
That bit of oil is normal, there is no filter that can filter the air 100%. The most important thing is that you are not having the oil coming through the turbo from the PCV.
Hi khir, thank you for the comment. I absolutely agree, no filter will leave 100% dry air. Normally there is a trade off between filtering efficiency and of course pressure, but I guess it is better than nothing.
@@moremolecules I have a similar engine on a Mazda 3 1560cc 80 KW 109 Hp this weekend I opened the the intake, the were so much oil build up and even the intake ports and valves were covered by oil build up. To be honest when I crank the engine cold or hot it doesnt show any blue smoke. I my opinion you have to check the valves stem seals they may be leaking a little bit and they are not hard to replace on that engine, ypu do not need to take out the cylinder head, you have raise the Piston to avoid that the valve falls down.... While replacing start with piston 1-4 and then 3-2. Good luck!
@@claymane91 Many thanks for the comment, I really appreciate it. There are several other symptoms of valve stem seals. If you have ever been behind a car with bad valve stem seals, you would know it straight away. Say you pull at traffic lights, the oil starts to seep down, once you start pulling away there will be puff of blue smoke. Any prolonged idle and then harder pull away will give you puff of blue smoke. That does not happen with my car, so unlikely to be valve stem seals.
hi, is there a follow with the new MH Provent 200?
I do not have that much to add with the new MH Provent 200. I might do a video on my observations of the differences of the cheap vs. original as there are a few, so people make their own mind.
Thanks for your video. Have you fitted the original provent 200 filter yet?
I'm thinking of fitting one to my 2013 ford cmax 2.0 tdci 103kw.
What size are the inlet and outlet on the provent?
Hi Tony, yes I did, but MOT came and covid and have not driven too much with the car and the original provent 200. It is the same size as the cheap one. I think 25mm both in/out (www.inlinefilters.co.uk/info/brochures/Mann-Air-ProVent.pdf). Seems to work OK, but initial observations, not much better than the cheap one.
@@moremolecules ok you think it's worth it? It's a bit involved, do you think the length of the hoses influence how well it will work.?
@@boost351 I still think it is worth it, although I am not entirely sure if the price of the original one is worth it. At the end of the day any oil that is captured is less than burnt in the engine. I do not think the hose length makes a difference, although the longer it is the more surface area for the oil to coalesce and reduce in temperature. Of course you do not want to circle the whole engine with hoses.
@@moremolecules why did you go for the 200 provent and not the 100 or 150?
Did you have any problems with space?
@@boost351 The 200 seemed a better design than the 100/150. Also the in/out spouts are different and the 200 was better suited with my setup and the hoses. Yes, the 200 is a bit larger and a bit more fiddly
ik mount oil catcher cans on marine engines al the time. and when RUclips mount the catch can above the rockercover. then the can is way more eficiant.
sorry for auto correct
Hi Pieter, not too sure if you meant that the oil catch can needs to be higher than the rocker cover. That depends on the engine setup/design. This 1.6HDi, the rocker cover has a baffle in the rocker cover. If the oil catch can is higher, yes it will be more efficient, but oil will condense and pool just before the baffle at the rocker cover. Eventually, without attention, this will have oil/water vapor there that will block any gasses coming out of the rocker cover. This will make the gasses work harder against the pooled condensate and the potential for oil seals to fail, much bigger problem than a reduction in efficiency.
did you do an injector seal video?
No, I do not have one, but there are a few on youtube.
Any way that blue smoke is injector issue. Sometimes diesel makes blue smoke if it’s incompletely unburnt. Oil burning blue smoke is much more light
Unburnt fuel will be black, but oil is blue. I say blue, but it is generally lighter blue, so I normally would class it as blue-ish smoke.
@@moremolecules
Look at some old diesels who at startup have some blue smoke
@@gheorghinacov6008 You mean they do not burn oil? The older diesels burnt more oil than any of the newer ones.
It is possible to be oil leaking through the turbo? I know you replaced it recently. I would like to see the engine running with the oil cap off, to know if any smoke blows out. Thanks for the update.
Hi DieselTips, it does not blow too much from the oil filler cap, about normal. I already measured the pressure and under idle is pretty much minimal, i.e. ~1.4mbars. I also thought about that the new turbo can spew some, but it is a brand new cartridge and if it blows from there a bit on startup I would expect to have some on the intake, where the intake meets the propellers. Previously there was a bit there, but with this one, really nothing.
Thanks again. I will look out for your update on the genuine MH can. If your interested you can see the detail of the D4D rocker cover in video "Maximum catch can info" by Fourby4Diesel. (Sorry I don't know how to insert link). Btw he's not a fan of catch cans but that's only his opinion. I assume from what you said about MOT your car would fail test in GB if it had a catch can. I'm in Northern Ireland where MOT is government run and they don't measure Diesel emissions so I don't know if it would fail with catch can. Thanks
Interesting, I'll check it out. Yeah, it will fail MOT, as it is classed as emissions modification. To be honest, it is indeed an emission modification, but in a good way, i.e. reduces emissions but go and explain that to the MOT people. Less oil burnt it only a good thing.
Not too sure how they class these modification in NI, otherwise in GB they only measure opacity, rather than what the gasses comprise, so it is basically how dense the smoke is, not much else. I should check with the MOT station and ask them would an oil catch can fail the MOT, I always assumed it is an emission tampering sort of thing and it will not be looked upon favourably.
Hi MM. On reading some comments on one of your other videos a person said how poor the efficiency of the Provent copy was compared to genuine Provent. You said you'd be interested in any research re Catch cans efficiency. I was watching a video by XploringOz titled "Provent Catch Can vs HPD" and he mentions (at around 12.50) a University study in Australia into Catch can efficiency which is publicly accessible. I don't think it will compare genuine with Copy but does feature Provent. Hopefully of some interest. 👍
@@davidgirvan6007 Many thanks, I think I have seen the paper on this, but if memory serves right it was more the type of design rather than the actual catch cans. Of course the cheap one is not present. Thanks again
Hi! What dis you put under the drain oil of the provent 200 ?
Hi Vincent, a simple hose clamped at the bottom and at the end a gas valve. Here is a bit more information and how it looks: ruclips.net/video/QdxyAHP1DVM/видео.html
@@moremolecules thanks for the link i was not able to find the vidéo where you showed the installation of that one, i would like to install only provent for now and i was wondering if the bottom of provent had enough Space to collect oil ? (Because i don’t wan’t to drain oil back in my oil pan of course ^^) and compared to the aluminium oil catch can systems we usually see there is not so much capacity... what do you think about that? (Sorry for my english and thanks for your help)
@@vincentvergote1640 English is pretty good :-), no need to apologise. I do not remember the diameter of the hose, but get something wider to accomodate more oil. I think mine was 10mm hose, but 15mm hose diameter will be better. Simply because the 9-10mm hose will collect only ~50ml of oil or thereabouts. I calculated how much it will collect here: ruclips.net/video/MzgoHK4_jiI/видео.html
It works quite well, but in winter or when the weather is rainy you get a lot of water inside the hose, so you have to empty it more frequently.
@@moremolecules oh okay you simply use the hose as a reservoir ^^ yep the hole is 12,5mm
I was looking for a small plastic tank to put under (to avoid risk of over filled catch can on long ride for exemple) but i was not able to find anything apropriate for now (i have à 1.6 HDI but first i’ll do the modification on a BMW E46 which is consuming oil due to a bad CCV system design and i presume the collected oil will be significantly more important)
Thanks for advises and your knowledge/expérimentations sharing
@@vincentvergote1640 Yes, I use the hose as a reservoir, but you could also put another oil catch can to catch the oil, but you may need to secure it somehow.
You installed the hoses in the wrong direction on the cheap catch can. The vapours should enter the can through that baffle and exit through the dipstick side
Generally, I put the hoses as to be the same as the in/out labels on the mishimoto oil catch can.
@@moremolecules
It is wrong. The catch can even mentions on both sides which is IN and OUT
@@gheorghinacov6008 Aha, think about it logically. The Mishimoto has an opening that has a small metal piece that the gasses when they enter first hit that part and start swirling around. This metal plate also stops the gasses going straight to the baffle. The baffle is there only to stop oil going back in when it is sloshing around from the vibrations of the engine. Check the dictionary for baffle, "to restaron or to regulate fluid", nothing to do with first needs to go through there, only to restrain oil sloshing around and going back up.
This is a cheap oil catch can, produced in China, so do you trust them to label correctly?
Tell me what is your logic of first going through the baffle?
@@moremolecules
The logic is that vapours should enter the can through the baffle first. This way cooling is most effective.
@@gheorghinacov6008 There is not really that much cooling going on in an oil catch, it is the contact with surfaces that helps coalesce any oil vapor. Baffle is there to stop oil sloshing around and coming back up. What do you think about the metal plate that is straight in front of the gasses? This is to force the gasses to go to the sides of the can when they enter and to stop them going straight to the other opening. That is you in.
The provent is a much better catch can than your first one. The mistake most people make is buying a cheap can. You should do much better with the provent.
Yes, probably true. I suspect people try a cheap one just to see if it works and then stick to it and do not buy the more expensive ones. I have since then been using the provent one.
why not just get rid of the breather and egr
The breather is an integral part of the engine and vents or relieves pressure inside the engine, I cannot get rid of it. The EGR is a good question. Several reasons why I would not block it. One is the increase in nitrous oxides, another is the increased temperature in the cylinder block as the inert gasses from the EGR help reduce the temperature in the block and hence the reduction in nitrous oxides is a side process of this. Another one is that I need to unblock it every time I go for an annual MOT. The most important reason is that it really helps with pumping losses when one is cruising on the motorway.
@@moremolecules i mean you can just let the fumes go in to atmosphere as in so many industrial sdiesel engines (fe perkins). i don't want this junk in my inlet so i'm deleting all of this on my car in the near future
@@jeremino263 Yes, the old engines were like that, any photo os a motorway/freeway in the 1950s in the US one can see the oilly trail. At the time it was a tube pointing downwards. There are still benefits having it not going to the atmosphere. There is an active suction of fumes by the turbo, so kind of generating less pressure in the engine.
There is no need for oil catch can, because the oily dirt comes from EGR line, which is blocking intake valves. I measured the amount of cranckcase breather line oil and it is only 0,01 %. So shut EGR line and this 0,01 % oil is cleaning intake manifold. It might take
30 k - 50 000 km ? You could clean your motor by sucking oil to lower level of dip stick and add 1.5 liter diesel and let it run 40 min !
It is in general the combination of oil and EGR carbon that makes a fine paste that is lining the intake valves. The carbon itself is not a problem is there was not oil to mix with. Like mud. DUst itself is not that problematic if it does not get in contact with moisture.
I am proponent of EGR, helps with emissions (NOx), fuel economy and pumping engine losses. Thus, I would not block the EGR, but the only way to help reduce the intake blocking is to remove the extend which oil goes through there. It may be a few drops, but they are enough with time to combine with the carbon from the EGR.