Thanks for the video. The firing intervals are immaterial to the vibration issue. The exhaust note - well, no one should care other than those who write copy for a living. The key thing is inertial imbalance which grows exponentially (or is it squared?) with increasing revs. I don’t think the earlier 360 twins had a balance shaft so you might be wrong there. Did you mention BMW:s 800 cc engine with a genial third connecting rod and counter weight? Or the T-Max’ third dummy piston? (Also coming on SYM TL 500). Regarding 180 parallel twins - a primary rocking couple - yes but essentially balanced away with a balance shaft. The drawback with 180 parallel twins is the unaddressed SECOND order vibration (also on inline fours). And I agree with you on the 270 parallel twin - the second order vibration cancels by the design of the crankshaft if you disregard its rocking couple. But they too need the balance shaft for cancelling the first order vibration. How come the 270 parallel twin came to market? Advances in manufacturing which made the crankshafts cheaper to make. Thanks anyway. You can also disregard the fluff about power pulses. Other than at low revs, this is immaterial. And anyway, the 360 parallel twin has the most even powerpulses.
Wow, that was some great observations. I was just trying to explain it simplest way possible and I think a few points got lost in that process. Thanks for pointing out the flaws.
And yes, of course also second order vibration can be balanced out but is not yet done by balance shafts on motorbikes. But several cars do address the second order vibration by double balance shafts that turn twice as fast as the crankshaft, e.g. Porsche 2.5 liter inline four and I believe several Honda engines.
That was a brilliantly clear explanation. I think I've finally got it after wondering about it a million times when reading motorcycle magazines. Well done and thanks for posting.
Here's a fun fact. Steam locomotive pistons had to be calibrated in a process known as "quartering". Quartered locomotive cylinders balance out the massive forces acting on the engine, conserved momentum between each stroke, and allowed the train to run smoother and achieve higher top speeds. This concept has carried over into internal combustion engines and is what led to the development of the 270 degree parallel twin engine.
It also allowed the steam engine to self start in any crank orientation. Top and bottom dead centers were called dead for a reason. If a single cylinder steam engine stopped in either of those positions, someone would have to manually rotate the engine off of that position before the engine would start. That would be hard to do with a locomotive.
Very well done. You gave a clear explanation with helpful graphics. I gotta admit that I still prefer the perfectly even sound of a 360 degree twin, and Norton proved many years ago with its Isolastic system that one needn't counterbalance such a twin. A thumbs up video all around.
So a 360 degree crank is like having a single cylinder engine since they both are uP & down at the same time; that's a better perspective than i had before, thanks for clearing that up in this video!
Good summary, just a remark: a 270°parallel twin is not equal to a "real" 90°v-twin in terms of balance. 90°engines have perfect primary balance, no balance shaft needed. So the vibrations are different and the sound isn't perfectly the same, as it depends on not only the firing intervals (just the exhaust note, but there are some auxiliary noises that make it special and characteristic).
having owned a 270 degree crossplane (MT 07) and currently a 90 degree v-twin (V-Strom 650) - I can confirm from experience that only the exhaust note is mildly similar ... the feel is very different, the vtwin is much more balanced at low revs and the power delivery feels smoother overall while the 270 parallel twin had a more erratic feeling power delivery and only felt equivalently smooth at the higher rpms (after 4500 rpms). both are a hell of a lot more interesting than a 180 degree parallel twin and produce better torque/sound in my opinion.
I like ptwins on 360/180 degrees, like the Honda Rebel. They're butter smooth around 2.5-3k RPM, but vibrate a lot between 4-5kRPM. But then become butter smooth again around 6k RPM, and again at 9k RPM.
The point of 270deg parallel twin and 90deg V twin is piston “speed”. When a piston is at 0 velocity (TDC or BDC) the other is at maximum velocity mid stroke (up or down) and vice versa through the cycles. 🦘🇦🇺
I know the 270 degree crankshaft has less vibration than a 360 degree crankshaft, but I grew up in the 60's when BSA and Triumph motorcycles were the hottest bikes to own. Their wonderful sound was due to their 360 degree crankshaft. The new Royal Enfield twins really interest me, but the Kawasaki W800 with it's 360 degree crank and chrome fenders would be my choice today, vibrations and all.
@@genegoodwin8925 me too, and any 270° bike I rode (most new parallel twins are 270 anyway) feels like a tractor compared to 360° xtz750...half way between 1 cyl thumper and 360° twin... that's why they're compared to v twins, because they're running rough...
I've owned parallel twins with 180, 270 and 360 degree firing orders and I like the 270 best. They run smoother and sound best to me. I actually converted my 1978 Yamaha XS650 from 360 to 270 (actually 284) and it definitely runs smoother and has a more interesting exhaust note. I doubt that it makes more power though and probably wasn't really worth the work involved but now I have something different.
@@orbarends No video, I did this about 20 years ago when I had to figure it all out for myself and everybody told me it wouldn't work. Today you can just buy the crank and cam and ignition system online and bolt it all together. I definitely thought the conversion ran smoother and sounded better, and guys with stock XS650s who rode it usually agreed . My new Honda CB500 with the 180 crank sound's terrible, luckily I like quiet exhausts anyway so I don't really have to hear it much.
@@barryervin8536 Quite rare anywhere Barry, The dry sump engine was developed from the XTZ Paris-Dakar race engine. The frame was quite good and handled almost as well as my Ducati. A good friend still has two of them.
Since the 70s the Yamaha XS650 motor was a popular one to rephase to 270° (actually 274° because of the crank splines). In the 90s Yamaha introduced the TDM850 to the US market, a liquid cooled parallel twin with a 270° crank but sadly it didn't really sell well.
Sadly indeed. The TDM is a great bike and gorgeous motor. 270o from the MkII onwards, pretty sure it was only the MkI that was sold in the US. Yamaha's 700cc twin is a direct descendant.
Woow. These animations are very intuitive. I can understand what's going on and capture the essence of the message of the video even with the voice muted. Kudos!
When I was looking at the classic line of triumphs in 2014 I thought I wanted a Thruxton. Then I rode the scrambler and the engine did so much more for me with its 270 degree crank. That set me off looking for a dropped scrambler to turn into a thruxton. In that search I came across a Moto Guzzi V7 Cafe and haven't looked at Triumph since.
And then there's the 90 degree (cylinder angle) 'transverse' V-twin which is actually a longitudinal v-twin since the terminology refers to the crank orientation. This in my view is the best layout for an air-cooled twin. Moto Guzzi know a thing or two about this.
So do Honda they built the CX 500 transverse V twin shaft drive & went one step better & made it liquid cooled with slightly offset twisted barrels to tuck the carburettors in nicely .
@@mikekokomomike I always thought the Guzzie was less than a 90 % V Twin ,never really took much notice of them as they are Italian with dodgy Italian electrics ,& being of a low seat height were more suitable for women & vertically challenged male riders .
@@mikekokomomike Never understood why anyone would buy a motorcycle with a big cylinder pot sticking out each side .Even fitting them with engine guards only adds weight to the huge over the top tin boxes & masses of Tourtech farkles & tat ,that makes them tractors prone to ending up side down on the deck .
Cool. I was just killin time in Drs office, and clicked. I never really thought of this before. I would have guessed that the 180 woulda been best.. but there ya go.
Ignition occurs before top dead centre (BTDC) so that combustion is /complete/ by TDC. The piston is not driven by the explosion (it's not a proper explosion anyway, more a fast burn) but by the expanding hot gasses including the non-combustible nitrogen. This is why the ignition is advanced as revs increase, the combustion time is fixed but the piston speed varies with revs. Ignition is typically 17°BTDC (static) advancing to maybe as much as 37°BTDC as revs increase in some cases; not really a short way before TDC.
When comparing the pros and cons of 270° parallel twins, other engine factors should be taken into consideration. Since this video examines 3 inherent characteristics of 270° parallel twins: vibration issues, exhaust/engine sounds, and cost of ownership / manufacturing. I will examine only one specification (of many) that can affect all three of the issues listed above: engine cooling. • Air-cooled engines typically dissipate their heat through fins seen on the cylinders, and often the head itself. • Air-cooled engines require fewer parts, both for manufacturers to build and for consumers to fix, maintain and replace (radiators, pumps, coolant). • Air-cooled engines provide more simplicity, representing less components, which could break, need to be replaced, or need servicing. (radiator, pumps, coolant change intervals, electric fan, etc.). • Air-cooled engines run richer, making them less efficient and more polluting. • Liquid-cooled engines replace air-cooling fins with an additional layer of aluminum casing to create a "water jacket" for liquid coolant circulation (more engine mass). • Liquid-cooled engines having the cylinders and heads jacketed and surrounded with flowing liquid coolant act as sound insulators and deadens mechanical noise making them significantly quieter than air-cooled engines. • Liquid-cooled engines - circulating liquid evens-out hot and cold spots in the cylinder head for better emissions and more complete chamber combustion. • Liquid-cooled bikes can rev higher because they have higher tolerances due to their ability to self-cool.
The Yamaha TRX850 was the modern leader of this trend. Such a character filled engine. It is also much cheaper to build a parallel twin than a 90 degree L twin (with duplication of heads, valves, cams etc).
With 1 balancing shaft (of course best solution is 2 balancing shafts, turning opposite to the crankshaft but with crankshaft's speed) it is impossible to fully balance the "270°-engine", because "momentum of 2nd order" (=doubled crankshaft speed, sorry for my bad English) remains. But no question: the 270°-2-cylinder-parallel-twin is the best concept with regard to mass-balancing - and this is why it has become the common design. A flat crankshaft (360°- or 180°-design) would be the cheapest version, but nowadays even a spatial crankshaft like the 270°-version is not that much more expensive.
I had been wondering why these new parallel twins sounded more like v-twins compared to the old parallel twin engines. Now I know why, thanks to your explanation. Thank you.
Apart from the mentioned disadvantages V-twins are not only more expensive to produce, but also to maintain. You got 2 cylinder heads instead of 1 and access to them usually has to be gained with quite some work.
Thank you so much. It makes perfect sense now.. I am currently riding 2017 Ninja 650 which I believe to have 180 degree crank... So, vibration is something I have to live with especially at the high revs.... but, so far, it has not been too bad.. (^_^)
They're not just a new thing. My 1997 Yamaha TRX850 has one and I chose it over a Ducati. Indeed, later I bought the Ducati as well, sold it, bought a Harley. I still have the Yamaha though.
Nicely done. I was searching for this ever since I heard that the next generation of Suzuki V-Strom 650s are going to be parallel twins. I figured that that would raise the CG and rob the motorcycle of its character. But with this 270 deg crank, maybe all hope isn’t lost just yet.
And Yamaha had the best one, the TDM 900. With 10 valves and lots of torque. Now there's only the Teneré comparable. I do hope that MT series wil reintroduce a parallel twin again. That triple is good, but what should the twin lovers do now? Restore a used TDM 900? Why isn't there a new TDM 1200 big twin? Yamaha is very capable to renew the TDM, it was a great concept. Why not update it? TDM 600, 900 and 1200?
You have to ride one of the pre 1990 twins to understand how bad ths vibration is. This is the reason that the honda 750/4 put triumph out of business. It waz amazingly smooth for not having a balance shaft. If not for the vibration issue, triumph would have lost 40% of their customers, but they'd have survived.
I have no idea why anyone would want to eliminate low frequency vibration. It is a huge part of why I ride a pre M8 Harley Davidson. Smooth quiet over refined Japanese bikes are drop dead boring. Harleys have a wonderful sound and feel. Then H-D destroyed all that in one fell swoop by putting a counterbalancer in the M8, effectively creating a Japanese engine, and putting an end to all the fun.
Good show thank you . My thoughts on engine design if you want a single the Honda vigor slr650 are affordable and easy to tune for a lot more power . For a middleweight twin the Honda v twin as used in the transalp duville and such is smooth as silk the Bros 650 being my choice way ahead of it's time . For a four cylinder it has to be a Honda vfr750 they have gear driven cams making for an almost silent engine and again way ahead of their time . Moving up to the big stuff a Honda varadero 1000 fi is a very practical proposition good mpg long rang tank touring fareing 3 piece panniers long tyre life and plenty fast enough too carry two persons across a continent on any type of road in comfort it's only down side is chain drive it can be overcome somewhat with a scottoiler . Moving on in cost a bit for a twin a Yamaha xtz 1200 is the clear favourite they look good too and are shaft driven . A less pretty more thirsty but it's all about the engine the big Daddy and the one to have is the Honda vfr1200 x . If you fancy a sports twin Ducati made some nice bikes the St series being their best kept secret all the trills with a bit of comfort throw in the dreaded belts are easy to change they cost a bit more to service than a Japanese bike but they are fun to ride . For me the most desirable bike around these days is a Honda nc700x dct very frugal biking and no need to change gear any more the engine is have a Honda fit/jazz car engine so they only rev to 6000rpm the sound great with an end can . The new royal Enfield 650 is pretty cool Harris designed the frame they are more affordable than a triumph and more like a 60's bike I think . I am not bothered about retro style myself .
Not only more compact but significantly cheaper to construct than a V twin. Not sure who first used the 270 degree crank in a motorcycle but the XTZ 750 Yamaha dates from the late 1980s and the blood line continued through the TDM twins to the MT07s so they've been going for a long time now. Another factor to consider is that the uneven firing order of the 270 degree crank gives a much better 'feel' to the power delivery in low grip conditions. My first bike was a 180 degree crank '79 Bonneville and I still love the sound and feel but my TDM 900 is the best by far...
I don't think the XTZs had 270 degrees cranks in the '80s though did they? I thought they introduced it first on the TRX850 in 1995 (first production bike to have one), which was clearly aimed at Ducati's 900SS 90 degree L-Twin and became a cult bike. Then they used it in the TDMs. The idea is usually attributed to local Engineer Phil Irving, of Vincent fame.
Agree with Joric78 the TRX850 I’m pretty sure was the first with a 270 crank. Loved the sound with race pipes. Still have mine, need to get her going again. Very underrated bike.
Unless your '79 Bonnie was custom built, it had a 360 crank like all the others of its kind. Lumpy shaky things and a blast to ride! had a '77 Bonnie 750 Myself and remember it well.
**WHAT ABOUT 2 STROKES?** I had a two stroke, 2-cylinder Suzuki 250cc bike, an RGV-250, that in stock form put out 70hp. Real lightweight bike. That model from the 1990s is now over 20 years old. If 2 strokes were still around, an RGV-250 would be putting out 100hp or more. Imagine riding a 300 pound sport bike with 100 horsepower. That's where we'd be today. Damn politicians and tree huggers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_RGV250 . . .
Then you're not a tree hugger, 2 stroke stinks reeaaally bad, I sold my 2 stroke because of the bad fumes, at stops or with bags you start to smell like shit... And it uses a shitload if fuel AND oil
Enjoyed that and learned something new, thought Yamaha (MT05) and others were merely chasing image and sound, but now see the point. Fly a V-Twin engine and the pulses are a nuisance so stay above 4000rpm. in an ideal world would go for a triple, having owned and liked a Suzuki V and Triumph triple, you get a nicer experience in the Triumph
Many thanks. I believe the Scrambler was the only 270° twin in the Hinckley Triumph lineup for a while. Now it seems they went to 270 for all their twins.
can you do a video on Motogp inline 4 and V4 engine . recently V4 engines dominating more in Motogp . Inline 4 are suffering in acceleration and top end speed compared to V4 . its seems like Yamaha inline 4 reached its max limits and now Ducati , Honda and even new team KTM have better Top speed . they are using V4 . most of videos on internet are about sound difference but i am interested to know about why inline 4 started suffering against v4 in motogp .
Interesting. I had not heard of this configuration until these days with these new offerings. I suppose Irving found no satisfactory reason to manufacture it. I consider the Vincent one of the best engine designs ever produced considering it's compactness and visual appeal.
They was. Yamaha was the first motorcycle manufactor to offer it, but the drawings and patent goes back. It can make you wonder why the british motorcycle manufactors never took it to them. Reduced vibration could have kept the costumer happy.
I disagree, the 180 degree crankshaft angle is best in parallel twins (as in the Suzuki GS 400 series) because you can really rev the balls of them... The GS 425, which Suzuki only made for a year, before moving up to the 450, was the best motorcycle I ever owned; the engine was bullet proof, and it took off like shit off a shovel…
I really dont like how you use "spark timing" as a reference, as thats a different thing entirely. But if you use a term like "compression stroke" or "power stroke" instead, its fairly accurate.
KyleP133 Agreed. Spark timing has to do with the relation to the timing TO the compression stroke. How many degrees before tdc. Totally different. This is about crank timing.
Good job, very informative content! One small detail, if I am not mistaken, 270 refers to the ignition difference between the two cylinders and not necessarily the spark plug firing. Some engines work on a waste ignition system, and thus fire the spark plug on every crank pin rotation! :) Knit picking though, thumbsup!
I think you've got the firing order on your 180 wrong. it's either 180 - 360 or 180 - 720 (depending on which one fires first) Your explanation is correct though; it's the engine with the most uneven firing order.
balance i dont care only sound it change power actuallly stay the same so whatever like for me but yea cos of sound i wpuld choice 270 degree 👍🏻in parallel twin engine .
It doesn't feel or sound like a 90 degree VTwin. It approaches these kind of engines, no more. They are cheaper, lighter and pass environmental limitations easier than the VTwin. And a last point, they are easier to ride...
I still like the 360 crank . Sounds better. 270 cranks, not so much. I believe engines of the same size , make more horsepower. More even firing order.
180-deg parallel twins (ie Kawasaki ones) sound so bad, they ought to be banned. Owner try to make up for the weedy accoustics by adding a loud pipe, but that only amplifies that horrid hollow sound as if it's hoarsely crying out for 2 more cylinders. This type of twin is literally half an inline 4, and it bloody sounds like it. A 270-deg parallel twin has a more characterful rumble (which is why ppl buy v-twins). A 360-deg parallel twin sounds like an inline 4 rocket (because one cylinder is always firing every turn of the crank).
Hey.. Hey... guys.. my 2017 Ninja 650 sounds good enough for me... She still turns me on when she moans😁😎.. and I ride about 2,000 miles per month from May to October.. 😊
@@Tobeon2 yeah I agree, it's very passable with a good exhaust on it. I prefer the sound and feel of my ZX-14, but if you're on LAMS the ninja 650 with a musarri sounds nice enough.
Thanks for the video. The firing intervals are immaterial to the vibration issue. The exhaust note - well, no one should care other than those who write copy for a living. The key thing is inertial imbalance which grows exponentially (or is it squared?) with increasing revs. I don’t think the earlier 360 twins had a balance shaft so you might be wrong there. Did you mention BMW:s 800 cc engine with a genial third connecting rod and counter weight? Or the T-Max’ third dummy piston? (Also coming on SYM TL 500). Regarding 180 parallel twins - a primary rocking couple - yes but essentially balanced away with a balance shaft. The drawback with 180 parallel twins is the unaddressed SECOND order vibration (also on inline fours). And I agree with you on the 270 parallel twin - the second order vibration cancels by the design of the crankshaft if you disregard its rocking couple. But they too need the balance shaft for cancelling the first order vibration. How come the 270 parallel twin came to market? Advances in manufacturing which made the crankshafts cheaper to make. Thanks anyway. You can also disregard the fluff about power pulses. Other than at low revs, this is immaterial. And anyway, the 360 parallel twin has the most even powerpulses.
Wow, that was some great observations. I was just trying to explain it simplest way possible and I think a few points got lost in that process. Thanks for pointing out the flaws.
SECOND order vibration - hmmm. Please produce a video explaining that:)
Michael Thompson, it looks like this guy will explain second order vibrations: ruclips.net/video/gdHQ8aTfiQQ/видео.html
And yes, of course also second order vibration can be balanced out but is not yet done by balance shafts on motorbikes. But several cars do address the second order vibration by double balance shafts that turn twice as fast as the crankshaft, e.g. Porsche 2.5 liter inline four and I believe several Honda engines.
@@RevvingHeart Very diplomatic.
That was a brilliantly clear explanation. I think I've finally got it after wondering about it a million times when reading motorcycle magazines. Well done and thanks for posting.
I've heard many people talk about the 270 degree engine but no one explained it like you did. Thanks!
Very informative buddy. Good job
Here's a fun fact. Steam locomotive pistons had to be calibrated in a process known as "quartering". Quartered locomotive cylinders balance out the massive forces acting on the engine, conserved momentum between each stroke, and allowed the train to run smoother and achieve higher top speeds. This concept has carried over into internal combustion engines and is what led to the development of the 270 degree parallel twin engine.
It also allowed the steam engine to self start in any crank orientation. Top and bottom dead centers were called dead for a reason. If a single cylinder steam engine stopped in either of those positions, someone would have to manually rotate the engine off of that position before the engine would start. That would be hard to do with a locomotive.
You have answered so many questions that I had about my Truimph T120 engine in this video. Thank you.
Explained very well, thank you .
Very well done. You gave a clear explanation with helpful graphics. I gotta admit that I still prefer the perfectly even sound of a 360 degree twin, and Norton proved many years ago with its Isolastic system that one needn't counterbalance such a twin. A thumbs up video all around.
Very informative video, enjoyed watching it. Keep up the good work. Cheers!
i'd say it's a breathe of fresh air to the market that is already oversaturated with 180 degree twin sport bikes.
So a 360 degree crank is like having a single cylinder engine since they both are uP & down at the same time; that's a better perspective than i had before, thanks for clearing that up in this video!
Very well explained...
Thank you...
Good summary, just a remark: a 270°parallel twin is not equal to a "real" 90°v-twin in terms of balance. 90°engines have perfect primary balance, no balance shaft needed. So the vibrations are different and the sound isn't perfectly the same, as it depends on not only the firing intervals (just the exhaust note, but there are some auxiliary noises that make it special and characteristic).
having owned a 270 degree crossplane (MT 07) and currently a 90 degree v-twin (V-Strom 650) - I can confirm from experience that only the exhaust note is mildly similar ... the feel is very different, the vtwin is much more balanced at low revs and the power delivery feels smoother overall while the 270 parallel twin had a more erratic feeling power delivery and only felt equivalently smooth at the higher rpms (after 4500 rpms).
both are a hell of a lot more interesting than a 180 degree parallel twin and produce better torque/sound in my opinion.
You deserve more likes. Great effort put in those videos! Keep it up!
I like ptwins on 360/180 degrees, like the Honda Rebel.
They're butter smooth around 2.5-3k RPM, but vibrate a lot between 4-5kRPM. But then become butter smooth again around 6k RPM, and again at 9k RPM.
The point of 270deg parallel twin and 90deg V twin is piston “speed”. When a piston is at 0 velocity (TDC or BDC) the other is at maximum velocity mid stroke (up or down) and vice versa through the cycles. 🦘🇦🇺
Thanks for the good explanation Sir. 👍
I know the 270 degree crankshaft has less vibration than a 360 degree crankshaft, but I grew up in the 60's when BSA and Triumph motorcycles were the hottest bikes to own. Their wonderful sound was due to their 360 degree crankshaft. The new Royal Enfield twins really interest me, but the Kawasaki W800 with it's 360 degree crank and chrome fenders would be my choice today, vibrations and all.
how do you know 270 has less vibration?
@@ivok9846 Experoence. I've ridden both.
@@genegoodwin8925 me too, and any 270° bike I rode (most new parallel twins are 270 anyway) feels like a tractor compared to 360° xtz750...half way between 1 cyl thumper and 360° twin...
that's why they're compared to v twins, because they're running rough...
I've owned parallel twins with 180, 270 and 360 degree firing orders and I like the 270 best. They run smoother and sound best to me. I actually converted my 1978 Yamaha XS650 from 360 to 270 (actually 284) and it definitely runs smoother and has a more interesting exhaust note. I doubt that it makes more power though and probably wasn't really worth the work involved but now I have something different.
That's really cool! If you ever make a video about this I'd like to see it.
@@orbarends No video, I did this about 20 years ago when I had to figure it all out for myself and everybody told me it wouldn't work. Today you can just buy the crank and cam and ignition system online and bolt it all together. I definitely thought the conversion ran smoother and sounded better, and guys with stock XS650s who rode it usually agreed . My new Honda CB500 with the 180 crank sound's terrible, luckily I like quiet exhausts anyway so I don't really have to hear it much.
I had a TRX 850 with a 270 crank.
Nice bikes. I can't remember now if we ever got them in the US, if so I've never seen one.
@@barryervin8536 Quite rare anywhere Barry, The dry sump engine was developed from the XTZ Paris-Dakar race engine. The frame was quite good and handled almost as well as my Ducati. A good friend still has two of them.
Great video. I learned a lot. Good job. Thank you.
Since the 70s the Yamaha XS650 motor was a popular one to rephase to 270° (actually 274° because of the crank splines). In the 90s Yamaha introduced the TDM850 to the US market, a liquid cooled parallel twin with a 270° crank but sadly it didn't really sell well.
Sadly indeed. The TDM is a great bike and gorgeous motor. 270o from the MkII onwards, pretty sure it was only the MkI that was sold in the US. Yamaha's 700cc twin is a direct descendant.
The TDM850 was a great bike - I spent a week in Scotland on one, and it was an ideal bike for the journey. Did not lack power on the Motorway, either!
Love my 270 super tenere twin. Great explanation!!
Thanks! Now I won't look as clueless to my gearhead friends!
Wow! I learned a lot for this. Sub’d!
Woow. These animations are very intuitive. I can understand what's going on and capture the essence of the message of the video even with the voice muted.
Kudos!
"Has the balance of a big single" *Cries in DR650*
My brother got a Royal Enfield GT650 two years ago, and it sounds amazing with good exhaust.
Great video - thanks! I learned something :-)
When I was looking at the classic line of triumphs in 2014 I thought I wanted a Thruxton. Then I rode the scrambler and the engine did so much more for me with its 270 degree crank. That set me off looking for a dropped scrambler to turn into a thruxton. In that search I came across a Moto Guzzi V7 Cafe and haven't looked at Triumph since.
My 2012 Thruxton EFI does have a 270 degree crank.
Very informative and well presented. My 790 Duke has a 285 degree firing interval but is essentially the same.
Or a 75° firing order. The 270° is also a 90° both add up to 360°
i looked all over the internet and this has to be the best explanation for me
And then there's the 90 degree (cylinder angle) 'transverse' V-twin which is actually a longitudinal v-twin since the terminology refers to the crank orientation. This in my view is the best layout for an air-cooled twin. Moto Guzzi know a thing or two about this.
So do Honda they built the CX 500 transverse V twin shaft drive & went one step better & made it liquid cooled with slightly offset twisted barrels to tuck the carburettors in nicely .
Wasn't the honda more like 80 degrees?
@@mikekokomomike I always thought the Guzzie was less than a 90 % V Twin ,never really took much notice of them as they are Italian with dodgy Italian electrics ,& being of a low seat height were more suitable for women & vertically challenged male riders .
Guzzi is a 90 degree engine v angle, and the CX Honda is 80 degrees. I worked with a guy had CX650 Honda with a turbo. Me, I ride flat twin BMW
@@mikekokomomike Never understood why anyone would buy a motorcycle with a big cylinder pot sticking out each side .Even fitting them with engine guards only adds weight to the huge over the top tin boxes & masses of Tourtech farkles & tat ,that makes them tractors prone to ending up side down on the deck .
BEST CLEAREST VIDEO ON THE TOPIC!!!!!
Cool. I was just killin time in Drs office, and clicked. I never really thought of this before. I would have guessed that the 180 woulda been best.. but there ya go.
Although, personally, I prefer the sound of my Vmax's rip roarin V4.. but to each his own.
Ignition occurs before top dead centre (BTDC) so that combustion is /complete/ by TDC. The piston is not driven by the explosion (it's not a proper explosion anyway, more a fast burn) but by the expanding hot gasses including the non-combustible nitrogen. This is why the ignition is advanced as revs increase, the combustion time is fixed but the piston speed varies with revs. Ignition is typically 17°BTDC (static) advancing to maybe as much as 37°BTDC as revs increase in some cases; not really a short way before TDC.
If the rebel 500 has 270 firing order, it would be great.
Totally agree...
Same as my old Yamaha TDM 850, a beautiful sounding bike.
that visual display if the different cranks was brilliant.
Good quality contents and very informative
When comparing the pros and cons of 270° parallel twins, other engine factors should be taken into consideration. Since this video examines 3 inherent characteristics of 270° parallel twins: vibration issues, exhaust/engine sounds, and cost of ownership / manufacturing. I will examine only one specification (of many) that can affect all three of the issues listed above: engine cooling.
• Air-cooled engines typically dissipate their heat through fins seen on the cylinders, and often the head itself.
• Air-cooled engines require fewer parts, both for manufacturers to build and for consumers to fix, maintain and replace (radiators, pumps, coolant).
• Air-cooled engines provide more simplicity, representing less components, which could break, need to be replaced, or need servicing. (radiator, pumps, coolant change intervals, electric fan, etc.).
• Air-cooled engines run richer, making them less efficient and more polluting.
• Liquid-cooled engines replace air-cooling fins with an additional layer of aluminum casing to create a "water jacket" for liquid coolant circulation (more engine mass).
• Liquid-cooled engines having the cylinders and heads jacketed and surrounded with flowing liquid coolant act as sound insulators and deadens mechanical noise making them significantly quieter than air-cooled engines.
• Liquid-cooled engines - circulating liquid evens-out hot and cold spots in the cylinder head for better emissions and more complete chamber combustion.
• Liquid-cooled bikes can rev higher because they have higher tolerances due to their ability to self-cool.
Thanks!
Excellent explanation of why my NC750 is such a great ride, thanks.
Very clear explanation and nice of you to mention the sources of your video material. I really liked this video.
So well explained and animated that even I learned a lot from this video! Right on, just explain it to me like I'm fourteen years old.
The Yamaha TRX850 was the modern leader of this trend. Such a character filled engine.
It is also much cheaper to build a parallel twin than a 90 degree L twin (with duplication of heads, valves, cams etc).
With 1 balancing shaft (of course best solution is 2 balancing shafts, turning opposite to the crankshaft but with crankshaft's speed) it is impossible to fully balance the "270°-engine", because "momentum of 2nd order" (=doubled crankshaft speed, sorry for my bad English) remains. But no question: the 270°-2-cylinder-parallel-twin is the best concept with regard to mass-balancing - and this is why it has become the common design. A flat crankshaft (360°- or 180°-design) would be the cheapest version, but nowadays even a spatial crankshaft like the 270°-version is not that much more expensive.
Very good. Thank you for the vid.
I had been wondering why these new parallel twins sounded more like v-twins compared to the old parallel twin engines. Now I know why, thanks to your explanation. Thank you.
Apart from the mentioned disadvantages V-twins are not only more expensive to produce, but also to maintain. You got 2 cylinder heads instead of 1 and access to them usually has to be gained with quite some work.
Thank you so much. It makes perfect sense now.. I am currently riding 2017 Ninja 650 which I believe to have 180 degree crank... So, vibration is something I have to live with especially at the high revs.... but, so far, it has not been too bad.. (^_^)
270 is very good. But for optimum balance and performance, reality is 285degree is the best according Phil Irving.
They're not just a new thing. My 1997 Yamaha TRX850 has one and I chose it over a Ducati. Indeed, later I bought the Ducati as well, sold it, bought a Harley.
I still have the Yamaha though.
Hey revving heart ,great video sir,Thanks!
Exactly the kind of video I was looking for. Thanks 😀
Great explanation
Nicely done. I was searching for this ever since I heard that the next generation of Suzuki V-Strom 650s are going to be parallel twins. I figured that that would raise the CG and rob the motorcycle of its character. But with this 270 deg crank, maybe all hope isn’t lost just yet.
I guess that explains why Ducati V-twins are the best handling motorcycles in the world
Tractable power and a nimble bike is what most casual motorcyclists appreciate. Using the humble 270 twin is a good move for manufacturers.
🤔 good explanation..I however will keep my "L" twin and the beautiful exhaust note that comes from my 1200S.....thanks for the video.
Best explaination yet! Moto Guzzi has one of the best 90° v-twins.
And Yamaha had the best one, the TDM 900. With 10 valves and lots of torque. Now there's only the Teneré comparable. I do hope that MT series wil reintroduce a parallel twin again. That triple is good, but what should the twin lovers do now? Restore a used TDM 900? Why isn't there a new TDM 1200 big twin? Yamaha is very capable to renew the TDM, it was a great concept. Why not update it? TDM 600, 900 and 1200?
@@voornaam3191 love a piped 900 triple...best sound ever.
Thanks for explaining
You have to ride one of the pre 1990 twins to understand how bad ths vibration is. This is the reason that the honda 750/4 put triumph out of business. It waz amazingly smooth for not having a balance shaft. If not for the vibration issue, triumph would have lost 40% of their customers, but they'd have survived.
good video
I have no idea why anyone would want to eliminate low frequency vibration. It is a huge part of why I ride a pre M8 Harley Davidson. Smooth quiet over refined Japanese bikes are drop dead boring. Harleys have a wonderful sound and feel. Then H-D destroyed all that in one fell swoop by putting a counterbalancer in the M8, effectively creating a Japanese engine, and putting an end to all the fun.
Great info. Excellent presentation.
Very good and clear explanation, well done!
Good show thank you . My thoughts on engine design if you want a single the Honda vigor slr650 are affordable and easy to tune for a lot more power . For a middleweight twin the Honda v twin as used in the transalp duville and such is smooth as silk the Bros 650 being my choice way ahead of it's time . For a four cylinder it has to be a Honda vfr750 they have gear driven cams making for an almost silent engine and again way ahead of their time . Moving up to the big stuff a Honda varadero 1000 fi is a very practical proposition good mpg long rang tank touring fareing 3 piece panniers long tyre life and plenty fast enough too carry two persons across a continent on any type of road in comfort it's only down side is chain drive it can be overcome somewhat with a scottoiler . Moving on in cost a bit for a twin a Yamaha xtz 1200 is the clear favourite they look good too and are shaft driven . A less pretty more thirsty but it's all about the engine the big Daddy and the one to have is the Honda vfr1200 x . If you fancy a sports twin Ducati made some nice bikes the St series being their best kept secret all the trills with a bit of comfort throw in the dreaded belts are easy to change they cost a bit more to service than a Japanese bike but they are fun to ride . For me the most desirable bike around these days is a Honda nc700x dct very frugal biking and no need to change gear any more the engine is have a Honda fit/jazz car engine so they only rev to 6000rpm the sound great with an end can . The new royal Enfield 650 is pretty cool Harris designed the frame they are more affordable than a triumph and more like a 60's bike I think . I am not bothered about retro style myself .
Great job. Awesome presentation!
Loved the animation
Easy explanation 👌 thanks mate
Brilliantly explained! 👍🏻
Not only more compact but significantly cheaper to construct than a V twin. Not sure who first used the 270 degree crank in a motorcycle but the XTZ 750 Yamaha dates from the late 1980s and the blood line continued through the TDM twins to the MT07s so they've been going for a long time now. Another factor to consider is that the uneven firing order of the 270 degree crank gives a much better 'feel' to the power delivery in low grip conditions. My first bike was a 180 degree crank '79 Bonneville and I still love the sound and feel but my TDM 900 is the best by far...
I don't think the XTZs had 270 degrees cranks in the '80s though did they? I thought they introduced it first on the TRX850 in 1995 (first production bike to have one), which was clearly aimed at Ducati's 900SS 90 degree L-Twin and became a cult bike. Then they used it in the TDMs. The idea is usually attributed to local Engineer Phil Irving, of Vincent fame.
Agree with Joric78 the TRX850 I’m pretty sure was the first with a 270 crank. Loved the sound with race pipes. Still have mine, need to get her going again. Very underrated bike.
Unless your '79 Bonnie was custom built, it had a 360 crank like all the others of its kind. Lumpy shaky things and a blast to ride! had a '77 Bonnie 750 Myself and remember it well.
**WHAT ABOUT 2 STROKES?**
I had a two stroke, 2-cylinder Suzuki 250cc bike, an RGV-250, that in stock form put out 70hp. Real lightweight bike.
That model from the 1990s is now over 20 years old.
If 2 strokes were still around, an RGV-250 would be putting out 100hp or more.
Imagine riding a 300 pound sport bike with 100 horsepower. That's where we'd be today.
Damn politicians and tree huggers.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_RGV250
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Then you're not a tree hugger, 2 stroke stinks reeaaally bad, I sold my 2 stroke because of the bad fumes, at stops or with bags you start to smell like shit... And it uses a shitload if fuel AND oil
Very much good information, continue...
180 degrees used to be used in British two strokes such as the Scott 650.
Enjoyed that and learned something new, thought Yamaha (MT05) and others were merely chasing image and sound, but now see the point. Fly a V-Twin engine and the pulses are a nuisance so stay above 4000rpm. in an ideal world would go for a triple, having owned and liked a Suzuki V and Triumph triple, you get a nicer experience in the Triumph
Helpful. Thanks.
Good
Very useful and interesting!!!
This is the latest thing to do to a Yamaha XS-650. I have one that's a 270 and it's the best thing you can do to any parallel twin that's not a 270.
Yes, when I saw this, I immediately began to think of the many older Honda twins that could benefit from this treatment.
Yamaha also made the TRX 850 (270 degrees) - a quite nice tourer, but pre 2000
Many thanks. I believe the Scrambler was the only 270° twin in the Hinckley Triumph lineup for a while. Now it seems they went to 270 for all their twins.
It's a sin, and un-British!
@@fredtracy3931 Well Triumph got over that consideration by semding their entire production line to Thsiland..
The concept has been around for many years, originally proposed by Vincent V-twin designer, Aussie Phil Irving.
Well explained. Very good.
can you do a video on Motogp inline 4 and V4 engine . recently V4 engines dominating more in Motogp . Inline 4 are suffering in acceleration and top end speed compared to V4 . its seems like Yamaha inline 4 reached its max limits and now Ducati , Honda and even new team KTM have better Top speed . they are using V4 . most of videos on internet are about sound difference but i am interested to know about why inline 4 started suffering against v4 in motogp .
Phil Irving from Vincent motors patented this engine configuration in the early 50’s.
Nothing new under the sun.
Interesting. I had not heard of this configuration until these days with these new offerings. I suppose Irving found no satisfactory reason to manufacture it. I consider the Vincent one of the best engine designs ever produced considering it's compactness and visual appeal.
I thought parallel 270 twins were introduced in the 90's by Yamaha's TRX ("Trixie") and TDM
They was. Yamaha was the first motorcycle manufactor to offer it, but the drawings and patent goes back.
It can make you wonder why the british motorcycle manufactors never took it to them. Reduced vibration could have kept the costumer happy.
I disagree, the 180 degree crankshaft angle is best in parallel twins (as in the Suzuki GS 400 series) because you can really rev the balls of them... The GS 425, which Suzuki only made for a year, before moving up to the 450, was the best motorcycle I ever owned; the engine was bullet proof, and it took off like shit off a shovel…
Superb buddy, good job.
i think 360 crank has better muscular sound than 270 degree crank
I really dont like how you use "spark timing" as a reference, as thats a different thing entirely. But if you use a term like "compression stroke" or "power stroke" instead, its fairly accurate.
KyleP133 Agreed. Spark timing has to do with the relation to the timing TO the compression stroke. How many degrees before tdc. Totally different.
This is about crank timing.
Good job, very informative content! One small detail, if I am not mistaken, 270 refers to the ignition difference between the two cylinders and not necessarily the spark plug firing. Some engines work on a waste ignition system, and thus fire the spark plug on every crank pin rotation! :)
Knit picking though, thumbsup!
It's 90 degrees not 270. Westlake never used a balancer shaft on their 90 degree crank engines.
Got it, now how about the cross plane 4 and 2 cylinder engines that Yamaha uses?
Yamaha TRX 850 . Best sounding parellel twin ever . Yes is a 270' crank .
great vid
I think you've got the firing order on your 180 wrong. it's either 180 - 360 or 180 - 720 (depending on which one fires first) Your explanation is correct though; it's the engine with the most uneven firing order.
Ok sir
balance i dont care only sound it change power actuallly stay the same so whatever like for me but yea cos of sound i wpuld choice 270 degree 👍🏻in parallel twin engine .
There should not be a question mark in this video's title as it is not a question.
It doesn't feel or sound like a 90 degree VTwin. It approaches these kind of engines, no more. They are cheaper, lighter and pass environmental limitations easier than the VTwin. And a last point, they are easier to ride...
I still like the 360 crank . Sounds better. 270 cranks, not so much. I believe engines of the same size , make more horsepower. More even firing order.
180-deg parallel twins (ie Kawasaki ones) sound so bad, they ought to be banned.
Owner try to make up for the weedy accoustics by adding a loud pipe, but that only amplifies that horrid hollow sound as if it's hoarsely crying out for 2 more cylinders. This type of twin is literally half an inline 4, and it bloody sounds like it.
A 270-deg parallel twin has a more characterful rumble (which is why ppl buy v-twins). A 360-deg parallel twin sounds like an inline 4 rocket (because one cylinder is always firing every turn of the crank).
Haha that Kawasaki engine does sound like shit. More like a lawnmower.
Honda had the same layout with their early twins of the 60's into the 70's, and it was the same. With a loud pipe they sound awful.
It also performs like one. Piss-weak bottom end, non-existent top end on most of them.
Hey.. Hey... guys.. my 2017 Ninja 650 sounds good enough for me... She still turns me on when she moans😁😎.. and I ride about 2,000 miles per month from May to October.. 😊
@@Tobeon2 yeah I agree, it's very passable with a good exhaust on it. I prefer the sound and feel of my ZX-14, but if you're on LAMS the ninja 650 with a musarri sounds nice enough.
“Peril twin” lol