;D did they just say training around 6 sets per week and muscle will lead to decreaseing gains? so why am i able to gain better with very low volume, and cannot progress at all with your typical 12-18 sets per muscle and week? ;D ;D
@@bestboy007 try candito's 6 week program or any program from liftingvault which has a higher volume like 5/3/1 (not the base program). If you cant make session to session progression, try to find a 3-6 week peaking program for now
Thank you guys for putting this out. It’s really helped me think about my own training where I care about peak strength in power/strength and coaching for athletes that have similar goals. Coming from a SS background I think you’ve helped me realize the importance of volume in the broad intermediate range and that is often undervalued in the SS community. That and the importance of muscle size and more moderate, 70-80% intensity in my volume sets. I think it’s really important for me too look at the way many schools of coaching conceptualize training so I can have as many tools as possible to reach my clients goals. I will defiantly coach strength athletes differently than I would have, had I not watched these videos and I plan on consuming more of your content and hopefully attend some of your seminars soon, god willing. Many thanks and come back to santa cruz strength! Love to see ya at my gym
I don't even know how to put into words how great this podcast is. Not only helping me clear up and put form to thoughts I have had about my own strength journey , but also giving me the kind of real world knowledge I can use to improve my training over time. So much info. What are you guys trying to eliminate the need for coaches . LOL. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
Programming is complex. Powerlifted +30 years ago & l was somewhat doing the programming you talked about in this podcast. Trying to get back to it again. Downloaded "The Bridge", browsed it & I will it a try. BTW, I am still following SS training program. Over-estimated myself, got injured twice. Looking @my logs I shouldn't have been increasing the weight every work-out. Finally worked it out to 5lb. added to the bar every 2 weeks @5x3 on the worksets; this is on the squat. Seems to be working; going on a few months now. As soon as I have great dificulty in pushing the weight, I will try "The Bridge". Part #1-#3 all great advice & information, thank you to you both.
Great work as always guys. Really enjoying the group programing you all are providing at Barbell Medicine... I would like to see an alternative to using Facebook but I guess the masses have spoken. This series was very helpful.
I like jabs at Reynolds and SSOC, and after listening to Starting Strength and Barbell logic for some time now I have always felt that Jordan and Austin didn't belong there cuz they are too damn smart. I think Barbell Medicine is very smart in the direction it's going and the massive amount thought put into thier content and programming. Keep up the good work.
Abdeldjalil Belhani we’d rather not dole out bad examples and misinformation like them, so we have to be more calculated. We also gave examples in this podcast, if you’ll listen.
Okey Here is my questions: 1: so at the end of the day we should all train like bodybuilders (just concerned by volume )? 2. Isn't the transition to HLM is high volume , 5*5 squats 3 times a week like Bill Star model? , isn't the 4 days split more volume than sslp? You can even make the volume higher 3.when we add the load to the bar aren't we adding volume anyway? , since the tonnage goes up , and if the tonnage "isn't a good sign " and just volume is , some weird protocol like 10*10 reps would be tye bet and Marathon runners would be the biggest strangest athletes .
SMELLTHEGLOVE hey smart one , i have listened to all there podcasts , all of em , even the ones with startingstrength ones , okey . And its not your Bessines any way
If you had watched all three podcasts, your questions have been answered. 1) No they aren't saying go and train like a bodybuilder, they are however saying that if you are not used to volume and therefore need to get good at volume in order to deal with a higher intensity, then higher the volume as long as said volume doesn't effect the next training sessions. 2) Yes shifting to a program like 5 by 5 (25) is more volume that 5 by 3 (15), so is adding an extra day (as you'll be doing extra reps). However adding both of these things shouldn't effect the out come of the next training session. 3) Adding weight to the bar adds intensity, not volume. Volume is the amount of reps and sets performed, intensity is the amount of weight you are using to perform those reps and sets. They literally say this through all three videos. 3.5) They also don't say that tonnage isn't a good indicator, but it shouldn't be the only indicator as they already said, you can get to a set tonnage amount by simply lifting the bar for multiple reps and sets. Maybe watch the videos.
This is for me , the most informative information about what to do after l.p. is finished , greg nuckles has almost the same overall recommendations, really you need to increase your work capacity so you can handle more work , same as what you guys are saying and I was doing a few doubles at around 85% before I'd do the volume work, it's worked great for me I'm not a good responder but went from barly 3 rep at 100kg to 4 sets 8765 and that was holding 2 reps in reserve, without ever going to failer , my problem was thinking that I need to be lifting balls out all the time and that at around 70 % would not be enough weight , boi was I so wrong
This has been a really informative series of podcasts, thanks guys. An example of the audio complaint that I made in the last video is at 2:44 when Austin is speaking but we cannot hear what he is saying.
Are you talking about when Jordan says, "Yeah, yeah?" Sounds to me like standard editing. There's always going to be some small repetition or phrasing that can be cut out in order to shorter the podcast.
Standard editing or not, it kinda throws off the flow of thought. Every time it happens I feel like I'm missing something in the train of conversation.
I'd have to disagree. I listen to many podcasts and none edit in this way, it's slightly jarring. It doesn't ruin the experience or malform the brilliant information, it's just a criticism. I needn't caveat every comment with a complimentary buffer, but unless it really isn't obvious I massively appreciate Jordan and Austin making these videos, it's some of the best content available on the internet, let alone for free.
You certainly don't need to compliment and I know you appreciate it. We all get to note this like this, and just as an aside, I also listen to many podcasts, and I like it if extra chatting is edited out. I often give up on one if there is too much back and forth that doesn't move the conversation forward. We can have different opinions!
Glad to read into your sentiment that this is more light-hearted than I had first thought. I was concerned this would devolve into a silly argument about nothing. Totally agree that we can have different opinions. Going forward if it stays this way I would understand why, hearing Austin say "Yes" may not be all that important I suppose 😄
Very interesting video. The article that was mentioned "The Great Wide Open"...on your web site I found the one titled "Into the Great Wide Open: The Texas Method and 5/3/1" - this is the right one I take it. Thanks
Just learned a bunch of new stuff here. Honestly, my head is spinning a little. I'll be watching these a few times over, I'm sure. I think I understand Thomas Dolby's "Blinded Me with Science" better now, lol.
mikes volume is too much! ;D did they just say training around 6 sets per week and muscle will lead to decreaseing gains? so why am i able to gain better with very low volume, and cannot progress at all with your typical 12-18 sets per muscle and week? ;D ;D
Thanks these were great. For a long time I've been stuck in that mentality you described of thinking I needed more rest rather than more volume and slightly lower intensity. I've been frustrated at how slow my gains have been even though I would consider my lifts to be below average.
Loved every second of it. Listened to it on SoundCloud earlier today. You managed to clarify of lot of things floating around in my mind. I had misunderstood volume thinking it was a three dimensional parameter (sets x reps x weight), so maybe you can call it training area and start a whole new controversy :) Really well done. I feel like I just ate a really nice mental meal. Now I just need to get jacked!
Ha ha! Yes, do global warming next! Watching Rip express his deep thinking on global warming brought home for me the fact that he'll expresses himself with the same immense confidence even when he clearly knows only enough to be dangerous. Made me think about everything else he had to say in a different way after that. Though I still owe him a debt of gratitude for Starting Strength, Rip is RIP to me now.
Could you clear up a few things please. If muscle hypertrophy is the goal, and volume and exercise variation are the way, then: 1. Why not train like a bodybuilder most of the time and only do comp lifts while peaking to get the skill sharpened? 2. How come one can still get stronger while maintaining or even losing weight? How do you explain guys like Cailer Woolam 3. Isn’t it that the ability to gain significant muscle mass is also determined by genetics? As an aside, it is very hard to squeeze out some practical takeaways for my own programming out of this (albeit very interesting) discussion. Kinda hoped you guys would give more real world examples
1) What exactly do you mean by "train like a bodybuilder"? Do you mean doing isolation exercises or something? 2) The muscle mass is related to, as Austin mentioned several times, strength *POTENTIAL*. Not simultaneous strength performance that is displayed. So if there's a gap (highly likely) between your current strength performance and your potential with that current muscle mass, you can still improve your performance even if you lose muscle mass for that period of time. If you already are AT your strength potential with your current muscle mass, yes, you'll most probably get weaker if you lose a significant amount of muscle mass.
Caner ERBAY Yeah I think he still believes the myth that bodybuilders should only train 15x15 on isolation maschines and only powerlifters should train heavy lol
1. Great intuition! Indeed Greg Nuckols recommends precisely that (to an extent) for lifters whose biggest limiter is muscle mass. Since you took almost 3 hour to listen to these podcasts, I take it you'll enjoy his "complete strength training guide" (it's free, just google it, it's in his blog). 2. there are OTHER factors involved in strength besides muscle mass. For one neuromuscular adaptations (what you could call "skill"), which means your body has learned to maximally activate your muscle fibers in all the right order in order to maximize the strength it can generate in one specific movement pattern; there's leverages, insertion points, etc. (for more on this, go read Nuckols guides on every one of the powerlifts, he explains every single aspect involved in strength). 3. yes, however muscle mass is NOT the goal, the goal is increasing the lifts and one of the factors you can influence the most is muscle mass. So even tho you might see less of an effect than a high responder, why would you choose to ignore it?
In the end it is just a broad overview. I would love to hear you applying this to a theirtain case. Let us hear what you think while writeing out a programm for a given individual :-)
Barbell Medicine I think what hes trying to say is use one of your clients or someone who payed for a personalized program on how you create it and what you are taking into consideration when choosing amount of volume etc
Maybe you could you give a specific example, kinda like that video Alan Thrall did of his transition from 5/3/1 to Austin's program. You could use a random example of an intermediate lifter, as he transitions from the beginner phase.
Thanks for all the valuable information docs. I will now try and create my own botched version of the bridge will all this knowledge in hopes it will work since I'm too poor :( Haha seriously though this series have been a huge help.
Brad Schoenfeld seems to think that volume load (what you referred to as tonnage) is more important than just reps*sets assuming the intensity threshold is met. In his 2014 study he equated volume load and volume was actually 30% lower (21 reps vs 30, though i guess the number may actually be higher for the 21 rep group since more warm up sets may have had to be done to get to the heavier weight). This was back in 2014 so his opinion may have changed, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
What do you think about pairing calorie surplus with hyperthrophy block and calorie deficit with intensity block? Would this allow for optimal muscle protein synthesis (surplus + volume) and make use of time when you can't really build mass in deficit?
This video could not have come at a better time. I am in the last week of my novice LP (very similar to SS) and ready to switch to a post-novice program. This video in conjunction with the "Into the great wide open" article has convinced me not to do 5/3/1 in favor of something with higher volume than my novice LP. I'm planning on doing a similarly structured LP to SS, but with increases only once per week (not per workout). I will be increasing the total number of sets and reps per week, but I will also being including a "heavy" day where do 3x3@87%, 1x5@82% for a little higher intensity as well. the other 2 days are in the 5-8 rep range with 4 sets. I'm hoping this program will be a little less stressful mentally, given the higher volume and lower intensity overall. My heavy day should be a fun attempt to push myself, but since its only once a week, ill likely be ready for it.
I would just do BBM's free program "The Bridge". I say from experience that it's a lot more effective than trying to invent your own program. When you almost nothing about programming.
sumsar01 thanks. I'll definitely take a look. While it's a reasonable assumtion that I know nothing about programming, I have done my fair bit of research on it. I tend to model my programs closely after proven professional programs. However I was having trouble finding an intermediate program to model, so hopefully 'the bridge' will fill that gap (pun intended).
Kevin Held If you like programming yourself, Andy Baker has also good content in his HLM videos. Those along BBM content have helped me in creating an effective plan of my own. Also one word on volume, dont add too much/many sets immediately when changing programming, better do it gradually starting from "heavy" and "medium" days.
Hi Doctors, I would like to ask how the program The Bridge shell be understood in the light of latest information. Is there a need for modification of this program?
;D did they just say training around 6 sets per week and muscle will lead to decreaseing gains? so why am i able to gain better with very low volume, and cannot progress at all with your typical 12-18 sets per muscle and week? ;D ;D
Great information and insight, really appreciate the time and energy to get these podcasts done. There really is no other resource out there that produces this level of PHD info/insight on building strength. Now that I have a much better understanding of the intensity vs volume balance and the importance of hypertrophy, building muscle mass, to continue to build the foundation for increased strength potential, I have a question---is there any benefit to increasing the back off set rep range to the more traditional 8-12 hypertrophy range vs. staying with the 3-5/4-6 traditional strength range? Seems if we are trying to get more "jacked", we would be trying to increase reps which would also help with increasing volume. Or, at some point, do those higher rep ranges take away from the focus of strength training too much? So even though we are trying to increase hypertrophy to the max extent possible, is there still a strength vs. hypertrophy balance that we have to be cognizant of?
There is a question buried within this comment. Unfortunately, I think performance enhancing drugzzz have skewed the results of many training programs. Perhaps someone using steroids can do a program like Texas Method or 5-3-1 and continue to recognize hypertrophy indefinitely. One thing that wasn’t discussed was the effect of resting time between sets. Does decreasing rest time affect work capacity and hypertrophy? It would appear to be a method of keeping relative intensity static while lowering tonnage. I have a feeling the answer is: it depends.
The A1c studies, did they reduce a1c by giving them more drugs that stuff more fat in their cells or was it through reducing carbohydrate? And were they already pretty ill despite being on said medications? Another area to apply the beginners mind maybe.
Really enjoyed the series. Q: If the goal of a intermediate is to get jacked, would the hypertrophy version of "12 ways to skin the texas method" be a better approach or is that moving too far away from strength training goals?
If there’s 2 kinds of hypertrophy and 1 of them is actual contractile tissue, ideally, wouldn’t you want all of your muscular weight for your weight class to be the kind of tissue that actually produces force? Am I missing something here?
How does training in the 70% range work with rep ranges? If a set of 10 is about 70% of you 1rm, does that mean you shouldn't do reps over 10 since that would require you to lift weight that's less than 70% of your 1rm?
Cannot express how much I've loved this podcast series guys! Question regarding The Bridge: Would there be any issue with my moving the GPP day 1 to between the 1st and 2nd workouts rather than between the 2nd and 3rd?
Matthew Rider as far as I remember, they said it doesn't matter as long as you do it (you can also do GPP workout after the training session). Btw you're better off asking training questions on their forum - higher chance of getting an answer
Hi there ! What do you think about unilateral leg work like lunges as an accessory ? Is it helpfull for strength development in your opinion and experience ?
Barbell Medicine What about the so called "structural balance"? Many PT coaches claim that uni work is important to. I personally have not felt aby difference if I do them or not.
I'm curious what you guys think of Scientific Principles of Strength Training. If you haven't already read that, the authors (the Juggernaut crew) lay out a very well reasoned set of metrics to compare different training programs.
If intensity is not the driving factor to hypertrophy relatively to volume , and increased intensity at the compromise of doing more volume will generate more fatigue which will minimize hypertrophy due to comprimised recovery in time required for optimal adaptation Wouldnt people get a better result at LP doing more sets from the start , at a lower intensity - Mixin a 3x3 or 1rep max day from time to time (unknown to me) to facilitate neuro muscular adaptation ?
While actually , how can you measure the effectivness of a stress causing an adaptation on the neurological system Heavy singles, 3s, may be taxing - but how would you determine that the stress is in the right dose to cause neurological adaptations - better than heavy 5s 1 set , and then switching to backoff sets at lower intensity so you wont over stress at the expense of volume for the workout , and be able to recover Why yes doing singles helps you with singles , but at a higher rep your practicing the motion more while under high load aswell .. I cant figure those points in a way which will help me be practical.
I have not listened very carefully I must confess but... Many guys asked whether we should train like bodybuilders in the comments. I think I get what they mean: "volume first, intensity next?". I don't think they refer to isolation vs. compound. About the RBE and the neurological adaptation in the novice: I pushed my LP up to 155kg but felt pretty detrained on a HLM program and now struggles to come back to that level. I believe I had much neurological adaptation and that is something much less durable / reliable than real lean body mass. Question though: if volume is the main stimulus, what do you think about bodybuilding type of work for muscle mass (a boat load of volume at an appropriate intensity) once or twice a week in some type of periodization plan for the early intermediate?
Love Peri workout but damn that sucralose has to go - I’m a walking around like a water balloon from it This happened long ago when I used Splenda years ago. Please cut out the sucralose because I’d love to keep using this product but won’t if it has sucralose.
Nah, average intensity refers to the weights used for the sets being evaluated and how they compare to a 1RM. Say we have a lifter with a 400lb 1RM who did 300 x 5 (75% relative intensity), 310 x 5 (77.5% relative intensity), and 315 x5 (78.7% relative intensity), but the average intensity of all three sets is 77%.
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense, though rewatching the video it does still sound like there was a conflation of the two terms (average and relative), but it might just be that I missed an intended implication that you would only ever use averaged relative intensities, never averaged absolute intensities.
Depends on the rep range. There's an RPE to percentage conversion table that can be used as a starting point, but individuals will vary. Google "RPE to percentage chart" and it'll come up
Gregory cocco well if your using 70-80% and doing 12 rep sets with it then it’d be rpe 9 or 10. If you’re doing triples with it then rpe is very low obviously,
And we get bored doing the same thing over and over again and the body can be affected if you can't generate intensity or consistency when you're bored.
Does Barbell Medicine and Starting Strength (or should we just say SSOC now?) programming methodologies contradict each other? They are both scientifically based and accurate in their methods and recommendations right?
A K Starting Strength is not scientifically based and our methods are not compatible, though we do think there are elegant elements to the material put out over the years.
barbell Medicine Thx for the podcast austin and jordan Here is my questions: 1: so at the end of the day we should all train like bodybuilders (just concerned by volume )? 2. Isn't the transition to HLM is high volume , 5*5 squats 3 times a week like Bill Star model? , isn't the 4 days split more volume than sslp? You can even make the volume higher 3.when we add the load to the bar aren't we adding volume anyway? , since the tonnage goes up , and if the tonnage "isn't a good sign " and just volume is , some weird protocol like 10*10 reps would be tye bet and Marathon runners would be the biggest strangest athletes .
Abdeldjalil Belhani 1) No. Only volume at productive intensities, generally above 70%. Bodybuilders can accumulate much more volume at low intensities concentrating on the metabolic stress they produce 2) HLM or 5x5 like 5-3-1 can bring results or not. Depending on the person and where it is within the spectrum of sensitivity / volume resistance. The 4 day split does not necessarily have more productive volume than the LP 3) No. Tonnage is an unhelpful measure, the total volume and the average intensity are. For example marathoners use VERY high volumes but at low average intensities (non-productive for strength training) I would recommend you read Jordan's article "Into the great wide open" and listen again to the podcasts to analyze them better
Hello Doctors. It seems you are dismissive, due in large part to insufficient data or poor research in general, of techniques that attempt to directly manipulate recovery processes. Some in particular you say are actually disproven (like ice baths). On this subject, what about direct vagal stimulation such as breathing exercises (or certain yoga/pilates postures)? Some research has been done but I am unsure about its scientific validity. Is there any evidence that, physiologically only, increasing vagal activity would enhance recovery/present overall health improvements in trained populations? Or does it just make you perform better because of psychological factors like "feeling good"? (Although is that not in itself the result of neuroendocrine activity? I digress...)
I wish you would have said, “logic is not sufficient, you also need to use observation and the scientific method” because logic is always a requirement in making any good decision, even if it’s not the only one.
One thing that I'm really struggling to get my head around is the statement of how volume with relative intensity drives hypertrophy irrelevant of mechanical loading as long as roughly 60%+ 1rm. I thought research data up to date (Schoenfeld Et. Al) concludes that hypertrophy is reasonably equal from lower - higher rep ranges as long as volume is equated. How is this volume being equated? I always understood volume as 'Mechanical work done' by a muscle group, so as long as ROM and Rep / set scheme remains consistent, and increase of weight on the bar would overall be more mechanical work done by the muscle group in a given week and in turn be an increase in training volume, I know this may come with an increase in RPE and this may be where I'm getting things confused is anyone able to help expand on this what and Jordan meant? Also this Paper :www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4562558/ (even though I don't like how rest times weren't equated) Also forgot to say, absolutely love your guys stuff. The way you interpret data and remain objective is so so so reassuring in an industry full of witchcraft and voodoo. This series has been fantastic.
What you are referring to is tonnage. Volume in the context of a strength training program refers to solely the number of reps completed. Intensity (weight on the bar) x Volume (reps completed) = tonnage
It's a shame that so much advice from health professionals is polluted by the specter of the non-compliant patient/client/whatever. Many of us will gladly show up to the gym even though a previous workout was very fatiguing, and it'd be nice to know how to program in this case, instead of assuming we're going to stay home if fatigued and warping and polluting the training advice just because a lot of people lack basic willpower. It seems like medical professionals need healthier boundaries: a willingness to be frank with clients, laying out the minimums and maximums of behavior that can be beneficial, and a willingness to accept that they aren't responsible for whether or not the client follows those guidelines. Trying to bowl down the soft side of median is an insult to human diversity and strength, and creates a culture of weakness from the accumulation of all this psychological litter, all this haze and tongue-biting.
These guys really know their shit, but they love to make it sound more complex than it is.They should speak in more straight forward non waffle language like Ripetoe and Alan Thrall.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Mamushi (Remix) [feat. TWICE] [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5c0_u9PsrsQ/mqdefault.jpg)
New podcast is finally here! What do you guys think?!?
Awesome will post some questions once I finish watching the podcast.
When are ya'll doing a Barbell Medicine workshop in ST LOUIS MO!?
Barbell Medicine This has been a terrific series to watch. Lots to think about. Thanks!
Thank you so much for this!
dope af
I can't believe stuff like this is free
Give a man a program and he can train for a month. Teach a man to program and he can train for a lifetime!
;D did they just say training around 6 sets per week and muscle will lead to decreaseing gains? so why am i able to gain better with very low volume, and cannot progress at all with your typical 12-18 sets per muscle and week? ;D ;D
@@bestboy007 6 sets... so you're doing SS? So you are a novice?
@@christiansoenggoro ya :D and it stopped working. so no idea what to do now. i tried everything literall
@@bestboy007 try candito's 6 week program or any program from liftingvault which has a higher volume like 5/3/1 (not the base program). If you cant make session to session progression, try to find a 3-6 week peaking program for now
@@christiansoenggoro already tried higher volume. no results.
"Logic is an inadequate tool..."
-Dr. Baraki new diss track 2018
Most invaluable 3-hour videos in whole fitness industry so far
Thank you guys for putting this out. It’s really helped me think about my own training where I care about peak strength in power/strength and coaching for athletes that have similar goals. Coming from a SS background I think you’ve helped me realize the importance of volume in the broad intermediate range and that is often undervalued in the SS community. That and the importance of muscle size and more moderate, 70-80% intensity in my volume sets. I think it’s really important for me too look at the way many schools of coaching conceptualize training so I can have as many tools as possible to reach my clients goals. I will defiantly coach strength athletes differently than I would have, had I not watched these videos and I plan on consuming more of your content and hopefully attend some of your seminars soon, god willing. Many thanks and come back to santa cruz strength! Love to see ya at my gym
Great stuff boys love your 12 week strength program took my sqaut form 220kg 237kg bench 130-140 deadlift 220-230 cheers
I don't even know how to put into words how great this podcast is. Not only helping me clear up and put form to thoughts I have had about my own strength journey , but also giving me the kind of real world knowledge I can use to improve my training over time. So much info. What are you guys trying to eliminate the need for coaches . LOL. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
The FeigenBOMB just exploded some knowledge all over our faces.
its not gay if the tips dont touch
Even more so, its not gay as long as the tips are a nuanced caveat.
I think I got Barakied as well, it’s a mess
Programming is complex. Powerlifted +30 years ago & l was somewhat doing the programming you talked about in this podcast. Trying to get back to it again. Downloaded "The Bridge", browsed it & I will it a try. BTW, I am still following SS training program. Over-estimated myself, got injured twice. Looking @my logs I shouldn't have been increasing the weight every work-out. Finally worked it out to 5lb. added to the bar every 2 weeks @5x3 on the worksets; this is on the squat. Seems to be working; going on a few months now. As soon as I have great dificulty in pushing the weight, I will try "The Bridge". Part #1-#3 all great advice & information, thank you to you both.
Great work as always guys. Really enjoying the group programing you all are providing at Barbell Medicine... I would like to see an alternative to using Facebook but I guess the masses have spoken. This series was very helpful.
Love the USSF fall classic dino trophy in Jordan's background
Revisiting this great podcast...super informative !
I like jabs at Reynolds and SSOC, and after listening to Starting Strength and Barbell logic for some time now I have always felt that Jordan and Austin didn't belong there cuz they are too damn smart. I think Barbell Medicine is very smart in the direction it's going and the massive amount thought put into thier content and programming. Keep up the good work.
Kris4449 but the difference between BM and BLogic is that the barbell logic gives a ton of applications not just a theory
Abdeldjalil Belhani we’d rather not dole out bad examples and misinformation like them, so we have to be more calculated. We also gave examples in this podcast, if you’ll listen.
Okey
Here is my questions:
1: so at the end of the day we should all train like bodybuilders (just concerned by volume )?
2. Isn't the transition to HLM is high volume , 5*5 squats 3 times a week like Bill Star model? , isn't the 4 days split more volume than sslp? You can even make the volume higher
3.when we add the load to the bar aren't we adding volume anyway? , since the tonnage goes up , and if the tonnage "isn't a good sign " and just volume is , some weird protocol like 10*10 reps would be tye bet and Marathon runners would be the biggest strangest athletes .
SMELLTHEGLOVE hey smart one , i have listened to all there podcasts , all of em , even the ones with startingstrength ones , okey . And its not your Bessines any way
If you had watched all three podcasts, your questions have been answered.
1) No they aren't saying go and train like a bodybuilder, they are however saying that if you are not used to volume and therefore need to get good at volume in order to deal with a higher intensity, then higher the volume as long as said volume doesn't effect the next training sessions.
2) Yes shifting to a program like 5 by 5 (25) is more volume that 5 by 3 (15), so is adding an extra day (as you'll be doing extra reps). However adding both of these things shouldn't effect the out come of the next training session.
3) Adding weight to the bar adds intensity, not volume. Volume is the amount of reps and sets performed, intensity is the amount of weight you are using to perform those reps and sets. They literally say this through all three videos.
3.5) They also don't say that tonnage isn't a good indicator, but it shouldn't be the only indicator as they already said, you can get to a set tonnage amount by simply lifting the bar for multiple reps and sets.
Maybe watch the videos.
You guys are spot on! It comes down to no one really knows!
Loved the programming series. Came here from Alan Thrall’s channel. Glad I did. Keep it up. Learning a lot from you guys.
Thank you!
I'll submit the questionaire for coaching tomorrow. Looking forward to approaching the next level.
This is for me , the most informative information about what to do after l.p. is finished , greg nuckles has almost the same overall recommendations, really you need to increase your work capacity so you can handle more work , same as what you guys are saying and I was doing a few doubles at around 85% before I'd do the volume work, it's worked great for me I'm not a good responder but went from barly 3 rep at 100kg to 4 sets 8765 and that was holding 2 reps in reserve, without ever going to failer , my problem was thinking that I need to be lifting balls out all the time and that at around 70 % would not be enough weight , boi was I so wrong
This has been a really informative series of podcasts, thanks guys.
An example of the audio complaint that I made in the last video is at 2:44 when Austin is speaking but we cannot hear what he is saying.
Are you talking about when Jordan says, "Yeah, yeah?" Sounds to me like standard editing. There's always going to be some small repetition or phrasing that can be cut out in order to shorter the podcast.
Standard editing or not, it kinda throws off the flow of thought. Every time it happens I feel like I'm missing something in the train of conversation.
I'd have to disagree. I listen to many podcasts and none edit in this way, it's slightly jarring. It doesn't ruin the experience or malform the brilliant information, it's just a criticism. I needn't caveat every comment with a complimentary buffer, but unless it really isn't obvious I massively appreciate Jordan and Austin making these videos, it's some of the best content available on the internet, let alone for free.
You certainly don't need to compliment and I know you appreciate it. We all get to note this like this, and just as an aside, I also listen to many podcasts, and I like it if extra chatting is edited out. I often give up on one if there is too much back and forth that doesn't move the conversation forward. We can have different opinions!
Glad to read into your sentiment that this is more light-hearted than I had first thought. I was concerned this would devolve into a silly argument about nothing. Totally agree that we can have different opinions. Going forward if it stays this way I would understand why, hearing Austin say "Yes" may not be all that important I suppose 😄
Very interesting video. The article that was mentioned "The Great Wide Open"...on your web site I found the one titled "Into the Great Wide Open: The Texas Method and 5/3/1" - this is the right one I take it. Thanks
Just learned a bunch of new stuff here. Honestly, my head is spinning a little. I'll be watching these a few times over, I'm sure. I think I understand Thomas Dolby's "Blinded Me with Science" better now, lol.
What are your opinions on Dr. Mike Israetels volume recommendations and the whole MV, MRV, MEV etc. ?
I mean he’s using data as they are, and approaching training and programming in a very similar way. So i don’t think there’s much to disagree on
LOL they disagree a whole lot with the MRV MEV concept Davide my bro
I think most of the disagreements would be in that dr mike is focused on hypertrophy training and they’re mostly for general/strength
@@Jmack7861 no, they disagree entirely with the applicability of MRV/MEV, doesn’t matter the focus. Jordan only says it’s a decent theoretical idea
mikes volume is too much! ;D did they just say training around 6 sets per week and muscle will lead to decreaseing gains? so why am i able to gain better with very low volume, and cannot progress at all with your typical 12-18 sets per muscle and week? ;D ;D
Thanks these were great. For a long time I've been stuck in that mentality you described of thinking I needed more rest rather than more volume and slightly lower intensity. I've been frustrated at how slow my gains have been even though I would consider my lifts to be below average.
Loved every second of it. Listened to it on SoundCloud earlier today. You managed to clarify of lot of things floating around in my mind. I had misunderstood volume thinking it was a three dimensional parameter (sets x reps x weight), so maybe you can call it training area and start a whole new controversy :) Really well done. I feel like I just ate a really nice mental meal. Now I just need to get jacked!
Ha ha! Yes, do global warming next!
Watching Rip express his deep thinking on global warming brought home for me the fact that he'll expresses himself with the same immense confidence even when he clearly knows only enough to be dangerous. Made me think about everything else he had to say in a different way after that. Though I still owe him a debt of gratitude for Starting Strength, Rip is RIP to me now.
I just checked this out. I saw Baraki make a run for it the moment it started in order to distance himself from the shitshow that was on its way.
Could you clear up a few things please. If muscle hypertrophy is the goal, and volume and exercise variation are the way, then:
1. Why not train like a bodybuilder most of the time and only do comp lifts while peaking to get the skill sharpened?
2. How come one can still get stronger while maintaining or even losing weight? How do you explain guys like Cailer Woolam
3. Isn’t it that the ability to gain significant muscle mass is also determined by genetics?
As an aside, it is very hard to squeeze out some practical takeaways for my own programming out of this (albeit very interesting) discussion. Kinda hoped you guys would give more real world examples
Григорий Шаханов
skill, leverages, genetics...
They addressed all your points you didnt listen dude
1) What exactly do you mean by "train like a bodybuilder"? Do you mean doing isolation exercises or something?
2) The muscle mass is related to, as Austin mentioned several times, strength *POTENTIAL*. Not simultaneous strength performance that is displayed. So if there's a gap (highly likely) between your current strength performance and your potential with that current muscle mass, you can still improve your performance even if you lose muscle mass for that period of time. If you already are AT your strength potential with your current muscle mass, yes, you'll most probably get weaker if you lose a significant amount of muscle mass.
Caner ERBAY
Yeah I think he still believes the myth that bodybuilders should only train 15x15 on isolation maschines and only powerlifters should train heavy lol
bro. did you even listen to it?
1. Great intuition! Indeed Greg Nuckols recommends precisely that (to an extent) for lifters whose biggest limiter is muscle mass. Since you took almost 3 hour to listen to these podcasts, I take it you'll enjoy his "complete strength training guide" (it's free, just google it, it's in his blog).
2. there are OTHER factors involved in strength besides muscle mass. For one neuromuscular adaptations (what you could call "skill"), which means your body has learned to maximally activate your muscle fibers in all the right order in order to maximize the strength it can generate in one specific movement pattern; there's leverages, insertion points, etc. (for more on this, go read Nuckols guides on every one of the powerlifts, he explains every single aspect involved in strength).
3. yes, however muscle mass is NOT the goal, the goal is increasing the lifts and one of the factors you can influence the most is muscle mass. So even tho you might see less of an effect than a high responder, why would you choose to ignore it?
In the end it is just a broad overview. I would love to hear you applying this to a theirtain case.
Let us hear what you think while writeing out a programm for a given individual :-)
En1gm 4A What?
Pay for coaching if you want individual advice...
Barbell Medicine He wants to hear your thoughts nohomo
Barbell Medicine I think what hes trying to say is use one of your clients or someone who payed for a personalized program on how you create it and what you are taking into consideration when choosing amount of volume etc
Maybe you could you give a specific example, kinda like that video Alan Thrall did of his transition from 5/3/1 to Austin's program. You could use a random example of an intermediate lifter, as he transitions from the beginner phase.
Keep up the work guys! Great information to keep my brain gainzz going
Massively useful, clarified many grey areas for me. Thanks fellas!
Thanks for all the valuable information docs. I will now try and create my own botched version of the bridge will all this knowledge in hopes it will work since I'm too poor :( Haha seriously though this series have been a huge help.
Enjoyed the CRISPR joke, seems like it will happen some day
Ugh the fact my advanced novice programme has less volume than the nlp is now staring me in the face and winking aggressively
Fascinating stuff. Love the more scientific thinking here. I could listen to this shit all day.
Incredible series
I'd listen to this twice.
Brad Schoenfeld seems to think that volume load (what you referred to as tonnage) is more important than just reps*sets assuming the intensity threshold is met. In his 2014 study he equated volume load and volume was actually 30% lower (21 reps vs 30, though i guess the number may actually be higher for the 21 rep group since more warm up sets may have had to be done to get to the heavier weight). This was back in 2014 so his opinion may have changed, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
dbzrules95 I can’t speak for him, but his data almost universally support our points here when total volume is equated
I wouldn't mind talking about programming again :D
What books articles, chanels etc would you reccomend for physio/trainer in orthopedics and sports medicine
Nice episode ! Like it
There has been a lot repetition but i think it was nessesary :-)
What do you think about pairing calorie surplus with hyperthrophy block and calorie deficit with intensity block? Would this allow for optimal muscle protein synthesis (surplus + volume) and make use of time when you can't really build mass in deficit?
So awesome. Learned a lot.
This video could not have come at a better time. I am in the last week of my novice LP (very similar to SS) and ready to switch to a post-novice program. This video in conjunction with the "Into the great wide open" article has convinced me not to do 5/3/1 in favor of something with higher volume than my novice LP.
I'm planning on doing a similarly structured LP to SS, but with increases only once per week (not per workout). I will be increasing the total number of sets and reps per week, but I will also being including a "heavy" day where do 3x3@87%, 1x5@82% for a little higher intensity as well. the other 2 days are in the 5-8 rep range with 4 sets.
I'm hoping this program will be a little less stressful mentally, given the higher volume and lower intensity overall. My heavy day should be a fun attempt to push myself, but since its only once a week, ill likely be ready for it.
I would just do BBM's free program "The Bridge". I say from experience that it's a lot more effective than trying to invent your own program. When you almost nothing about programming.
sumsar01 thanks. I'll definitely take a look. While it's a reasonable assumtion that I know nothing about programming, I have done my fair bit of research on it. I tend to model my programs closely after proven professional programs. However I was having trouble finding an intermediate program to model, so hopefully 'the bridge' will fill that gap (pun intended).
Kevin Held If you like programming yourself, Andy Baker has also good content in his HLM videos. Those along BBM content have helped me in creating an effective plan of my own.
Also one word on volume, dont add too much/many sets immediately when changing programming, better do it gradually starting from "heavy" and "medium" days.
Hi Doctors,
I would like to ask how the program The Bridge shell be understood in the light of latest information.
Is there a need for modification of this program?
Why would there be a need to modify it?
Well there is bridge 2.0
But this info isnt new ...maybe to you
29:23 we're gonna talk about what happens
after the novice progression
14:58 so what you're saying is, when it comes to barbells, medicine trumps logic? (wink wink)
Huffman_Tree LOL didn't think about it but now I'm convinced it was a very deliberate selection of words
;D did they just say training around 6 sets per week and muscle will lead to decreaseing gains? so why am i able to gain better with very low volume, and cannot progress at all with your typical 12-18 sets per muscle and week? ;D ;D
@@bestboy007 Because not everyone is average, duh.
@@Huffman_Tree but they said training with very low volume will decrease all your gains!!!!!
@@bestboy007 If your comprehension skills are that bad why should I even try?
Great information and insight, really appreciate the time and energy to get these podcasts done. There really is no other resource out there that produces this level of PHD info/insight on building strength. Now that I have a much better understanding of the intensity vs volume balance and the importance of hypertrophy, building muscle mass, to continue to build the foundation for increased strength potential, I have a question---is there any benefit to increasing the back off set rep range to the more traditional 8-12 hypertrophy range vs. staying with the 3-5/4-6 traditional strength range? Seems if we are trying to get more "jacked", we would be trying to increase reps which would also help with increasing volume. Or, at some point, do those higher rep ranges take away from the focus of strength training too much? So even though we are trying to increase hypertrophy to the max extent possible, is there still a strength vs. hypertrophy balance that we have to be cognizant of?
Hey, I would like to purchase one of your programs. Since I am not living in the US, can I buy from abroad?
Head over to their website Barbellmedicine.com and you can buy their templates.
There is a question buried within this comment. Unfortunately, I think performance enhancing drugzzz have skewed the results of many training programs. Perhaps someone using steroids can do a program like Texas Method or 5-3-1 and continue to recognize hypertrophy indefinitely. One thing that wasn’t discussed was the effect of resting time between sets. Does decreasing rest time affect work capacity and hypertrophy? It would appear to be a method of keeping relative intensity static while lowering tonnage. I have a feeling the answer is: it depends.
The A1c studies, did they reduce a1c by giving them more drugs that stuff more fat in their cells or was it through reducing carbohydrate? And were they already pretty ill despite being on said medications? Another area to apply the beginners mind maybe.
30,000lbs tonnage with a 45lb barbell is the devil's workout - 666... reps
Really enjoyed the series. Q: If the goal of a intermediate is to get jacked, would the hypertrophy version of "12 ways to skin the texas method" be a better approach or is that moving too far away from strength training goals?
Thnx for the awsome stuff guys! Any great books you guys recommend on programming for strengthtraining?
Great podcast 😊
You don't train categories, you train people.
And people respond differently to training. Sometimes it is useful to categorize them.
That envelop behind Baraki needs some pain science education (3:32).
27:12 Some programs boost compliance, but still suboptimal. My thought exactly after previous podcast.
If there’s 2 kinds of hypertrophy and 1 of them is actual contractile tissue, ideally, wouldn’t you want all of your muscular weight for your weight class to be the kind of tissue that actually produces force? Am I missing something here?
How does training in the 70% range work with rep ranges? If a set of 10 is about 70% of you 1rm, does that mean you shouldn't do reps over 10 since that would require you to lift weight that's less than 70% of your 1rm?
Yeah, that's why they rarely do more than 10 reps in one set
Cannot express how much I've loved this podcast series guys! Question regarding The Bridge: Would there be any issue with my moving the GPP day 1 to between the 1st and 2nd workouts rather than between the 2nd and 3rd?
Matthew Rider as far as I remember, they said it doesn't matter as long as you do it (you can also do GPP workout after the training session). Btw you're better off asking training questions on their forum - higher chance of getting an answer
Barkotek Got it, thanks for your help and advice!
How would you modify the programming principles for weight class athletes who can not gain weight?
Not related to the vid, but when are you guys restocking the shirts for the barbell med store????
This week!
Hi there ! What do you think about unilateral leg work like lunges as an accessory ? Is it helpfull for strength development in your opinion and experience ?
Sebastian Foksiński I think there are better options in most cases
Barbell Medicine What about the so called "structural balance"? Many PT coaches claim that uni work is important to. I personally have not felt aby difference if I do them or not.
I think that is mostly bullsh!t, to be honest.
I'm curious what you guys think of Scientific Principles of Strength Training. If you haven't already read that, the authors (the Juggernaut crew) lay out a very well reasoned set of metrics to compare different training programs.
What did they propose in addition to the content in this 3-part programming podcast? Any examples?
If intensity is not the driving factor to hypertrophy relatively to volume , and increased intensity at the compromise of doing more volume will generate more fatigue which will minimize hypertrophy due to comprimised recovery in time required for optimal adaptation
Wouldnt people get a better result at LP doing more sets from the start , at a lower intensity -
Mixin a 3x3 or 1rep max day from time to time (unknown to me) to facilitate neuro muscular adaptation ?
While actually , how can you measure the effectivness of a stress causing an adaptation on the neurological system
Heavy singles, 3s, may be taxing -
but how would you determine that the stress is in the right dose to cause neurological adaptations - better than heavy 5s 1 set , and then switching to backoff sets at lower intensity so you wont over stress at the expense of volume for the workout , and be able to recover
Why yes doing singles helps you with singles , but at a higher rep your practicing the motion more while under high load aswell ..
I cant figure those points in a way which will help me be practical.
22:25 well said
Let's see if this can beat The Return of the King.
Exercise variation = the "muscle confusion" we've been bro-sciencing about since the 90s
Mind: blown...
This 3rd part was great!
It was Arnold S. who said wrong.
I have not listened very carefully I must confess but...
Many guys asked whether we should train like bodybuilders in the comments. I think I get what they mean: "volume first, intensity next?". I don't think they refer to isolation vs. compound.
About the RBE and the neurological adaptation in the novice: I pushed my LP up to 155kg but felt pretty detrained on a HLM program and now struggles to come back to that level. I believe I had much neurological adaptation and that is something much less durable / reliable than real lean body mass.
Question though: if volume is the main stimulus, what do you think about bodybuilding type of work for muscle mass (a boat load of volume at an appropriate intensity) once or twice a week in some type of periodization plan for the early intermediate?
Great video , useful and scientific based!
Love Peri workout but damn that sucralose has to go - I’m a walking around like a water balloon from it
This happened long ago when I used Splenda years ago. Please cut out the sucralose because I’d love to keep using this product but won’t if it has sucralose.
You are supposed to be a water balloon. That's why there is creatine/betaine in it.
Soul Guru yea I’d put odds on creating and betaine, not sucralose.
Barbell Medicine touché
Badass cardinals hat
You should bring Alan over next time and talk about a less contentious topic: music choices
36:09 volume
1:02:45 "how we do intermediate / post novice"
Great information!
7:25 - "average intensity is a term that refers to the percent of one rep max"
Pretty sure he means to say *relative* intensity there, not average.
Nah, average intensity refers to the weights used for the sets being evaluated and how they compare to a 1RM. Say we have a lifter with a 400lb 1RM who did 300 x 5 (75% relative intensity), 310 x 5 (77.5% relative intensity), and 315 x5 (78.7% relative intensity), but the average intensity of all three sets is 77%.
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense, though rewatching the video it does still sound like there was a conflation of the two terms (average and relative), but it might just be that I missed an intended implication that you would only ever use averaged relative intensities, never averaged absolute intensities.
This info is gold!
I'm trying to use and practice rpe. Does training at 70 - 80% translate to rpe 7-9?
Depends on the rep range. There's an RPE to percentage conversion table that can be used as a starting point, but individuals will vary. Google "RPE to percentage chart" and it'll come up
Gregory cocco well if your using 70-80% and doing 12 rep sets with it then it’d be rpe 9 or 10. If you’re doing triples with it then rpe is very low obviously,
And we get bored doing the same thing over and over again and the body can be affected if you can't generate intensity or consistency when you're bored.
Was that reference for climate change denial at the end?
Yippee!
46:20 lol
Lol
If deficit deadlifts are a variation of the deadlift then are below below parallel or ATG squats good for a squat variation?
I think that there are better options for most folks, as correctly performed squats are below parallel anyway.
Does Barbell Medicine and Starting Strength (or should we just say SSOC now?) programming methodologies contradict each other? They are both scientifically based and accurate in their methods and recommendations right?
A K Starting Strength is not scientifically based and our methods are not compatible, though we do think there are elegant elements to the material put out over the years.
barbell Medicine Thx for the podcast austin and jordan
Here is my questions:
1: so at the end of the day we should all train like bodybuilders (just concerned by volume )?
2. Isn't the transition to HLM is high volume , 5*5 squats 3 times a week like Bill Star model? , isn't the 4 days split more volume than sslp? You can even make the volume higher
3.when we add the load to the bar aren't we adding volume anyway? , since the tonnage goes up , and if the tonnage "isn't a good sign " and just volume is , some weird protocol like 10*10 reps would be tye bet and Marathon runners would be the biggest strangest athletes .
Abdeldjalil Belhani
1) No. Only volume at productive intensities, generally above 70%. Bodybuilders can accumulate much more volume at low intensities concentrating on the metabolic stress they produce
2) HLM or 5x5 like 5-3-1 can bring results or not. Depending on the person and where it is within the spectrum of sensitivity / volume resistance. The 4 day split does not necessarily have more productive volume than the LP
3) No. Tonnage is an unhelpful measure, the total volume and the average intensity are. For example marathoners use VERY high volumes but at low average intensities (non-productive for strength training)
I would recommend you read Jordan's article "Into the great wide open" and listen again to the podcasts to analyze them better
Hello Doctors. It seems you are dismissive, due in large part to insufficient data or poor research in general, of techniques that attempt to directly manipulate recovery processes. Some in particular you say are actually disproven (like ice baths). On this subject, what about direct vagal stimulation such as breathing exercises (or certain yoga/pilates postures)? Some research has been done but I am unsure about its scientific validity. Is there any evidence that, physiologically only, increasing vagal activity would enhance recovery/present overall health improvements in trained populations? Or does it just make you perform better because of psychological factors like "feeling good"? (Although is that not in itself the result of neuroendocrine activity? I digress...)
YAAAASS
#Nuanced vs #ZoomOut
I wish you would have said, “logic is not sufficient, you also need to use observation and the scientific method” because logic is always a requirement in making any good decision, even if it’s not the only one.
Sounds like you have someone kidnapped in the closet.
One thing that I'm really struggling to get my head around is the statement of how volume with relative intensity drives hypertrophy irrelevant of mechanical loading as long as roughly 60%+ 1rm. I thought research data up to date (Schoenfeld Et. Al) concludes that hypertrophy is reasonably equal from lower - higher rep ranges as long as volume is equated. How is this volume being equated?
I always understood volume as 'Mechanical work done' by a muscle group, so as long as ROM and Rep / set scheme remains consistent, and increase of weight on the bar would overall be more mechanical work done by the muscle group in a given week and in turn be an increase in training volume, I know this may come with an increase in RPE and this may be where I'm getting things confused is anyone able to help expand on this what and Jordan meant?
Also this Paper :www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4562558/ (even though I don't like how rest times weren't equated)
Also forgot to say, absolutely love your guys stuff. The way you interpret data and remain objective is so so so reassuring in an industry full of witchcraft and voodoo. This series has been fantastic.
What you are referring to is tonnage. Volume in the context of a strength training program refers to solely the number of reps completed. Intensity (weight on the bar) x Volume (reps completed) = tonnage
This is not the hypertrophy dose response your looking for!
Uh oh
!!!!
15:19 - 16:13 or why Mark Rippetoe thinks RPE is complete bullshit.
diesel828 this is why people need to practice it. Everybody sucks the first time they do something.
Also why Andy Baker said that studies and data are only useful to explain what you already know from experience rather than move things forward.
Andy baker is right about that
He won't practice it, or advocate practicing it, because he wants to remain ignorant to it.
Sounds like Andy Baker is ignorantly reaffirming his confirmation bias, and notions of confirmation bias.
It's a shame that so much advice from health professionals is polluted by the specter of the non-compliant patient/client/whatever. Many of us will gladly show up to the gym even though a previous workout was very fatiguing, and it'd be nice to know how to program in this case, instead of assuming we're going to stay home if fatigued and warping and polluting the training advice just because a lot of people lack basic willpower.
It seems like medical professionals need healthier boundaries: a willingness to be frank with clients, laying out the minimums and maximums of behavior that can be beneficial, and a willingness to accept that they aren't responsible for whether or not the client follows those guidelines. Trying to bowl down the soft side of median is an insult to human diversity and strength, and creates a culture of weakness from the accumulation of all this psychological litter, all this haze and tongue-biting.
mark putham so many words, but nothing communicated.
These guys really know their shit, but they love to make it sound more complex than it is.They should speak in more straight forward non waffle language like Ripetoe and Alan Thrall.
"Non impressive lifts early on" didn't you deadlift 530 in your first year?
Teao Hughes 545. We were half joking.