In terms of the forgiveness question, I always want to remind people of Dust To Dust. In that episode, G'Kar gets an incredibly intimate understanding of how and why Londo did what he did, including his horror at the mass drivers. It makes the dynamic between them complicated. Something I feel like B5 did better than any other franchise was give a geometry to their space battles. They're not just spectacular (especially for TV show budgets), they also make a lot of sense in how and why ships are moving to the positions they do. I don't think they were beaten until The Expanse came along
Sheridan, "Earth stands alone..." If you've never been bullied, or otherwise placed in a situation where that which you know is right is questioned even by you, you can't understand the smirk. Having been there, I lack the words to express how good it feels to know you're getting to strike back at your tormentor. Whatever comes after its always worth it. ... Lando & G'Kar Lando admires G'Kar! He has seen him bruised, battered, and beat on, but none of it ever broke him. Additionally in all things at all times G'Kar has been and always will be true to one thing. His people, both the Narn and all sentient beings. G'Kar couldn't drink and Lando knew it, but in hoping and reaching out he give G'Kar the win, morally and ethically. When G'Kar didn't pour it out but back in that was him saying, "...not today." again, "You are right, nothing would've been changed. Except that my people would now be a dead race." "You have come a long way, G'Kar. Further than I would've guessed. Sheridan's promise binds me as well it does him. We will take you into the Council, G'Kar. And someday, when all this is over, perhaps you will find it in your heart to forgive me." "Perhaps, but not today." -- G'Kar and Delenn in Babylon 5:"Ship of Tears"
Nobody ever deserves forgiveness. That's what makes it a gift. If forgiveness could be earned, it's not really forgiveness. It's reparation. They're different words.
I understand where Emily is coming from by using Justin's cat as an example, but I think it's sending her the wrong direction. Molari didn't kill G'Kar's cat. He went with a group of people to steal G'Kar's house and the people Molari was with killed G'Kar's cat. I think the thing that will help understand the dynamic is think about how they were both 'playing the game' at the beginning of the episode. Both wanted to conquer (and humiliate) the other, they both understood those rules and were playing by them. Like agreeing to fight a kid on the playground. As long as you don't kick the other kid when they cry uncle, you cant complain about losing. That's what they BOTH wanted to do. However, it got away from Molari and it went the kicking-while-on-the ground route. Sure, he was still acountable because he started things off, but I think that while G'Kar still blames Molari for everything, he at least understands that Molari didn't intend for things to go the way they did. And yes, G'Kar understands that Molari used him in order to get rid of the crazy emperor, but he also understood that Molari could easily have gone back on his agreement to free not only G'kar but his people. There was nothing to stop Molari doing whatever he wanted at that point. If he truly didn't respect G'Kar, and didn't feel regret for what happened, he wouldn't have freed his people, and G'kar knew that. Still tons of resentment and blame, thus pouring the drink back into the bottle, but he also didn't throw it in Molari's face. I also believe that on some level, G'Kar understands that had it not been Molari, the Shadows would have gone to someone else (after all, the Shadows did go to Reefa after Molari told them to go away) and the same thing would have happened--espeically since G'Kar was directly responsible for launching attacks against the Centauri to begin with. It's important to remember that he WAS the one who initiated hostilities against an enemy he full well knew were capable of atrocities. At this point I think G'Kar is self-aware enough to understand his own culpability. p.s. Also recall when G'Kar tried to get his uncle G'Sten to stop the attack on Gorash 7. But as an ambassador, he doesn't have the power to stop it and the fleet is wiped out in an ambush. Londo is not Hitler, he's just an ambassador and lacks the power to dictate military strategy or occupation policy. He was shocked by the use of mass drivers but was powerless to do anything about it. The most he could do would be to... what? Resign? How would that help anything? Things were completely out of his control by that point. The genie was uncorked and the Shadows were playing them all for puppets.
An EXCELLENT episode! So much in this one, and Ivanova's lines cracked me up. G'Kar and Londo were excellent. To the point of forgiveness for Londo, it is nearly like whether or not Anakin Skywalker should be forgiven for all the Jedi (especially the younglings) he killed... How many can you kill before forgiveness is not possible? To be fair, it was Lord Reefa that used the Mass Drivers on the Narn homeworld. And, G'Kar blames all Centauri for what they did to Narn, not just Londo. When Vir tried to apologizes to G'Kar, G'kar cut his own palm to let his blood drip to the floor... "Dead. Dead. Dead..." So, Londo's apology, sincere or not, is not going to make much of a difference to G'Kar. I do feel like Londo is being sincere, but he did ally with the Shadows, and G'Kar KNOWS that Londo ordered to first attacks on the Narn (via the telepath encounter he had with Londo with the use of Dust). We are back to full speed again. Hooray!
Don't give Londo too much credit, his actions did directly lead to billions of Narn being killed, even if he was shocked by the brutality of it, he leaned right into subjecting them right afterward.
Londo really didn't get what he wanted. Everything largely went status quo ante bellum. Narn and Centari are both badly damaged by the war and no one gained anything
You guys, I love and appreciate you guys, but this was difficult to listen to. I think fundamentally one has to consider the possibility that you can't have your principles and your feelings coincide all the time. You got to choose one of them. The entire conversation about respect and forgiveness and agenda and goals all hinges on those things. And I think you guys can, if you consider that point, apply it to the story however you will.
In terms of the forgiveness question, I always want to remind people of Dust To Dust. In that episode, G'Kar gets an incredibly intimate understanding of how and why Londo did what he did, including his horror at the mass drivers. It makes the dynamic between them complicated.
Something I feel like B5 did better than any other franchise was give a geometry to their space battles. They're not just spectacular (especially for TV show budgets), they also make a lot of sense in how and why ships are moving to the positions they do. I don't think they were beaten until The Expanse came along
LOL at the admission from the First Ones to Justin the fact why Bureau 13 was never mentioned again.
Sheridan, "Earth stands alone..."
If you've never been bullied, or otherwise placed in a situation where that which you know is right is questioned even by you, you can't understand the smirk. Having been there, I lack the words to express how good it feels to know you're getting to strike back at your tormentor. Whatever comes after its always worth it.
...
Lando & G'Kar
Lando admires G'Kar! He has seen him bruised, battered, and beat on, but none of it ever broke him. Additionally in all things at all times G'Kar has been and always will be true to one thing. His people, both the Narn and all sentient beings. G'Kar couldn't drink and Lando knew it, but in hoping and reaching out he give G'Kar the win, morally and ethically. When G'Kar didn't pour it out but back in that was him saying, "...not today." again, "You are right, nothing would've been changed. Except that my people would now be a dead race."
"You have come a long way, G'Kar. Further than I would've guessed. Sheridan's promise binds me as well it does him. We will take you into the Council, G'Kar. And someday, when all this is over, perhaps you will find it in your heart to forgive me."
"Perhaps, but not today."
-- G'Kar and Delenn in Babylon 5:"Ship of Tears"
Nobody ever deserves forgiveness. That's what makes it a gift. If forgiveness could be earned, it's not really forgiveness. It's reparation. They're different words.
The Alexander is in one of the final shots at Proxima in this episode. But it would have been good to see Major Ryan again, even on a viewscreen.
Cmon guys, Londo just wanted to make the Centauri Republic great again.
I understand where Emily is coming from by using Justin's cat as an example, but I think it's sending her the wrong direction. Molari didn't kill G'Kar's cat. He went with a group of people to steal G'Kar's house and the people Molari was with killed G'Kar's cat.
I think the thing that will help understand the dynamic is think about how they were both 'playing the game' at the beginning of the episode. Both wanted to conquer (and humiliate) the other, they both understood those rules and were playing by them. Like agreeing to fight a kid on the playground. As long as you don't kick the other kid when they cry uncle, you cant complain about losing. That's what they BOTH wanted to do. However, it got away from Molari and it went the kicking-while-on-the ground route. Sure, he was still acountable because he started things off, but I think that while G'Kar still blames Molari for everything, he at least understands that Molari didn't intend for things to go the way they did. And yes, G'Kar understands that Molari used him in order to get rid of the crazy emperor, but he also understood that Molari could easily have gone back on his agreement to free not only G'kar but his people. There was nothing to stop Molari doing whatever he wanted at that point. If he truly didn't respect G'Kar, and didn't feel regret for what happened, he wouldn't have freed his people, and G'kar knew that. Still tons of resentment and blame, thus pouring the drink back into the bottle, but he also didn't throw it in Molari's face.
I also believe that on some level, G'Kar understands that had it not been Molari, the Shadows would have gone to someone else (after all, the Shadows did go to Reefa after Molari told them to go away) and the same thing would have happened--espeically since G'Kar was directly responsible for launching attacks against the Centauri to begin with. It's important to remember that he WAS the one who initiated hostilities against an enemy he full well knew were capable of atrocities. At this point I think G'Kar is self-aware enough to understand his own culpability.
p.s. Also recall when G'Kar tried to get his uncle G'Sten to stop the attack on Gorash 7. But as an ambassador, he doesn't have the power to stop it and the fleet is wiped out in an ambush. Londo is not Hitler, he's just an ambassador and lacks the power to dictate military strategy or occupation policy. He was shocked by the use of mass drivers but was powerless to do anything about it. The most he could do would be to... what? Resign? How would that help anything? Things were completely out of his control by that point. The genie was uncorked and the Shadows were playing them all for puppets.
An EXCELLENT episode! So much in this one, and Ivanova's lines cracked me up. G'Kar and Londo were excellent. To the point of forgiveness for Londo, it is nearly like whether or not Anakin Skywalker should be forgiven for all the Jedi (especially the younglings) he killed... How many can you kill before forgiveness is not possible? To be fair, it was Lord Reefa that used the Mass Drivers on the Narn homeworld. And, G'Kar blames all Centauri for what they did to Narn, not just Londo. When Vir tried to apologizes to G'Kar, G'kar cut his own palm to let his blood drip to the floor... "Dead. Dead. Dead..." So, Londo's apology, sincere or not, is not going to make much of a difference to G'Kar. I do feel like Londo is being sincere, but he did ally with the Shadows, and G'Kar KNOWS that Londo ordered to first attacks on the Narn (via the telepath encounter he had with Londo with the use of Dust). We are back to full speed again. Hooray!
Commenting, by order of Bureau 13.
Don't give Londo too much credit, his actions did directly lead to billions of Narn being killed, even if he was shocked by the brutality of it, he leaned right into subjecting them right afterward.
".....every time I say....no"
RIP Bureau 13😂
Airlock.
Because in space, no one can hear spoilers.
Londo really didn't get what he wanted. Everything largely went status quo ante bellum. Narn and Centari are both badly damaged by the war and no one gained anything
How long till G'kar kills Londo?
Re-watch War Without End. It's already happened.
You guys, I love and appreciate you guys, but this was difficult to listen to. I think fundamentally one has to consider the possibility that you can't have your principles and your feelings coincide all the time. You got to choose one of them. The entire conversation about respect and forgiveness and agenda and goals all hinges on those things. And I think you guys can, if you consider that point, apply it to the story however you will.