The Top Single Dose Espresso Grinders: Niche Zero vs DF64 vs Eureka Oro Mignon.
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- Опубликовано: 3 фев 2023
- Comparing three of the top single-dose espresso grinders on the market: Niche Zero vs DF64 vs Eureka Oro Mignon Single Dose. How do they compare? Which is for you? We asked our friend, Jimmy the Barista to give an honest review.
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I agree with your conclusion, and had the same experience. I originally purchased the Eureka Mignon Oro XL (not single-dose, but with the same burrs and motor, I believe), and subsequently bought a Niche - thinking that I wanted to single-dose, as well. I was surprised to discover that the Eureka produced espresso that was far richer, more nuanced, and better balanced than the Niche - and this was on medium to medium dark roasted beans with which the Niche is supposed to excel. The difference was so stark that I sold the Niche, and have been happily producing great espresso using the Eureka and my new La Marzocco Linea Micra.
Sincere question: do you think the Micra might be a factor here, or did you find this stark difference to be notable before you had the Micra?
@@calisson47 That’s a very good question. The Micra was not a factor as I purchased that considerably after I sold the Niche. To be fair, I have read that some, if not many, people cannot distinguish the difference between coffee from a Niche and one of the Eurekas. While I personally find that difficult to believe, I also know that taste is subjective and personal.
The Niche is priced in British pounds, not Euros. And you just incorporate that shipping into the total price. I paid about $600 for US version, including delivery.
I'm impressed that he actually recommended one.
You mentioned a link between flavor profiles that can be linked to specific grinders. Would you like to elaborate more on that? I'm new to this game but I never heard you have to choose depending on the flavor profile.
That was mainly in reference to the difference between burr styles: conical and flat. There are so many variables that go into how a specific coffee tastes, burr style is just one of them, so he was speaking more generally.
I have a Baratza Vario and the calibration process involves getting the burrs to touch at the 2Q setting, which is obviously not the finest. That means the burrs would be touching each other if I were to run it dry (no beans) to use it for single-dose grinding if I use settings finer than 2Q. I often use settings finer than 2Q, but I never run it dry. So, finally, my question is: do the burrs of these single-dose grinders touch each other in its finest settings? And, if so, won't that wear out the burrs quicker? Or even maybe get some microscopic metal fragments into your coffee?
Great question! You can take any of these grinders to "zero" which is what we say when the burrs are touching. This is not good for the burrs and typically, when touching, no coffee would be able to grind through. If a grinder is calibrated properly, they should be fairly separated and still grinding fine enough to pull a shot in the 20-45 second range. Does that answer your question?
Momentary chirping of burrs, to find the “zero point,” should not do damage. Lance H and people from Ode have said that the parts that touch first are not coffee cutting surfaces. However, going finer than that, or chirping for extended periods, risks damage and potential locking.
As one comment already stated, shouldn't flatt burrs highlight more acidity than conicals? And vice versa, conicals produce more round, balanced flavours?
Working in the coffee industry professionally for so long means that we’ve learned and unlearned coffee myths and truths as people and ourselves have experimented with making delicious coffee.
For so long, we were taught, and have taught, and know others who teach that flat burrs can give a more balanced shot and conical burrs can highlight more distinct flavor notes. This is because conical burrs create more fines or smaller coffee particles which can bring out the different flavor notes in coffee. Whereas flat burrs typically produce a more uniform grind size which creates evenness and balance and, in a lot of cases, can be good for darker roasts. However, there are really too many factors to make a blanket statement that one does this and the other does that every time, without a doubt, no ifs, ands, or buts. That’s just not how coffee works!
In the grinder alone, you’re up against different manufacturers, burr size, and motor power in addition to burr shape. Brewing the same coffee on two different conical burr grinders could yield different results. Depending on your coffee, its age, the roast level, your recipe, your espresso machine, water quality, water temperature, and so on… the most important thing, at the end of the day, is finding the secret sauce to a coffee that tastes best to you brewing it at home!
All this to say, when breaking down conical vs. flat burrs to a newer barista, that is the easiest way we’ve been able to explain it. Until they go down the rabbit hole of home espresso and realize it’s just the tip of the iceberg!
@@clivecoffee Thanks for this thorough answer, really appreciate it.🙂 The thing is just that most people here on YT or other knowledge source and who are in general involved in some way in tasting coffee conclude what I questioned. So in that term, I raised this since it is strange that they are all in general that wrong...
i thought the Niche conical burrs were supposed to highlight chocolatey, richer flavor compared to flat burrs?
Agree 👍
We believe you can find the right recipe for any coffee regardless if the burrs are flat or conical. The burr shape is one tiny factor out of many that play a role in how your espresso will taste. It's definitely not something to get hung up on or a reason to purchase or not purchase a grinder.
Well that is a completely different take than the model/actor in your video was pushing@@clivecoffee
yes, a lot of folks use that as a way to make a decision between grinders that have a lot of the same features and specifications. People have their preferences and it doesn't make what he says wrong. Two things can be true at the same time. @@Thetache
Sorry, but I had to pause at 1:30... "Conical burrs highlight acidity while flat produce more of a well-rounded balanced tasting espresso" Dude I think your taste buds are the opposite of the majority of specialty coffee enthusiasts. Conical burrs produce more fines, which results in a fuller, more rounded and blended-tasting brew, but comes at the expense of flavour separation (clariy) and acidity. Flat burrs excel at light roasts because they highlight acidity, though it comes at the expense of some body, and they have a steeper learning curve because they will highlight errors in your puck prep more.
Hi LuckyDragon,
Working in the coffee industry professionally for so long means that we’ve learned and unlearned coffee myths and truths as people and ourselves have experimented with making delicious coffee. We are always down to be challenged and would love to hear about your experience and for you to point us to your resources - thank you!
For so long, we were taught, and have taught, and know others who teach (in a very elementary way) that flat burrs can give a more balanced shot and conical burrs can highlight more distinct flavor notes. This is different than body and mouthfeel, and we agree with your logic on that! Since conical burrs create more fines or smaller coffee particles, we notice they can highlight different flavor notes in coffee. Whereas flat burrs typically produce a more uniform grind size which creates evenness and balance and, in a lot of cases, can be good for darker roasts. However, there are really too many factors to make a blanket statement that one does this and the other does that every time, without a doubt, no ifs, ands, or buts. That’s just not how coffee works!
In the grinder alone, you’re up against different manufacturers, burr size, and motor power in addition to burr shape. Brewing the same coffee on two different conical burr grinders could yield different results. Depending on your coffee, its age, the roast level, your recipe, your espresso machine, water quality, water temperature, and so on… the most important thing, at the end of the day, is finding the secret sauce to a coffee that tastes best to you brewing it at home!
All this to say, when breaking down conical vs. flat burrs to a newer barista, that is the easiest way we’ve been able to explain it. Until they go down the rabbit hole of home espresso and realize it’s just the tip of the iceberg!
@@clivecoffee Appreciate the thoughtful response, thanks for that.
My Eureka Filtero with espresso burrs cost me under $350, and I dial it up for my pot of coffee and down to espresso every morning. 😃☕ Double shot in every cup.
If I have a Eurika specialita can I get that top hopper as an aftermarket purchase??
Yes u can
I have an older Ceado without the fine adjustment and while I'm used to it, I'm thinking of a more modern upgrade. Do you recommend a single dose grinder or one with a larger hopper like my Ceado, for making 2-3 espressos daily?
The reason we love single dosing is because it allows you to store your coffee properly, you waste less coffee when dialing in and from shot to shot due to grind retention. If you're thinking of an upgrade, we definitely recommend single dosing to home baristas! This practice doesn't make sense in a café or catering environment due to efficiency in workflow but they go through so much coffee so quickly, they don't face the same concerns that home baristas do.
Sorry, but I had to bail as soon as you said conical produces espresso with more acidity and flat produces more balanced. Many in the industry say the exact opposite (flat = more clarity/acidity; conical more forgiving when it comes to dialling in and particularly more texture/body).
I was thinking the exact same thing! I think this lad is more about the looks and doesn't actually know anything about coffee.
In my country DF64 price is same as eureka manuale. Which one should I get?
Df64
I couldn't care less what it looks like, quality and consistency of an ultra-fine espresso grind is all that matters to me.
I have owned the DF64 and currently own a Niche. I totally disagree that the Niche favors acidity-- to the contrary.
Totally. There are a lot more factors that contribute to this.
Sound good? It’s not a stereo.
Niche: Buyers from outside the UK beware! you will be charged the full 20% of UK VAT (i.e. GBP 100) when ordering this grinder. In addition you will pay any import tax and fees that your country charges you. International orders should be sold without the VAT of the country of origin. The company flatly refuses to comply with this. I guess it makes for a nice additional sales bonus.
Any VAT they charge (rightly or wrongly) has to be declared on their TAX return and goes to the Inland Revenue
If this guys name was Hoffman……would you be getting this feedback……a lot of people are preferring other grinders than niche
Or Varia VS3?
Nice review.
Though I think your comment that the price of the Niche is a “con” if you live in the US is a bit disingenuous.
Niche don’t determine the costs of postage/couriers, and international postage has gone through the roof since Covid.
It’s not like they’re trying to hide it either.
Even in the UK you pay the courier cost.
Doesn’t change the fact that it’s a bit of a cost. Therefore con
@@playnicegames what???
How is it a con to add postage?
You buy something from Amazon/Etsy/everywhere else, and they add postage, so that’s a “con” too???
That’s some strange logic.
@@robertpugh4057 no, everything you buy doesn’t have added postage, I think it’s odd that you are acting as if it does. Many companies use free postage as a selling point.
@@playnicegames many do - you’re right - but not all.
And it’s not hidden so not a con, and I still maintain use of the word is perjorative.
YMMV.
@@robertpugh4057 hey man, paying shipping is a con… it’s ok if you like the grinder, but actually no like it’s not a negative to pay shipping to some is lying to yourself.
Clive … just do better. Flats highlight bright notes. Conicals like the niche are proven to have a larger grind distribution that creates the balanced notes across all roasts. The larger distribution let’s the niche be forgiving with dialing it in but it will not be able to highlight the acidity of bright light roasts like a flat burr grinder will. He had this all backwards.
Hi Bryan,
Working in the coffee industry professionally for so long means that we've learned and unlearned coffee myths and truths as people and ourselves have experimented with making delicious coffee. We are always down to be challenged and would love to hear about your experience and for you to point us to your resources - thank you!
Though we made a blanket statement that conical burrs can highlight more flavor notes and flat burrs give a more balanced espresso, it's a bit more complicated than that. We don't believe it's black and white and that it's possible for us to be 100% correct or for us to have this backward. This is a way we've been able to give a simplified answer to the new barista from our experience.
We both know that conical burrs produce more fines which can make coffee more complex and often highlight different flavor notes, whereas flat burrs often have a more uniform grind which means it will promote a more even extraction giving it more balance. This is, though, *in theory*. There are really too many factors to say that one does this and the other does that every time, without a doubt, no ifs, ands, or buts. That's just not how coffee works!
Acidity and balance are hard topics to tackle because we use these interchangeably when addressing mouthfeel and actual flavors. Both flat burrs and conical burrs can make GREAT coffee for all types of coffee regardless of roast level and flavor profile. At the end of the day, we just want to help people make great coffee at home and we're glad that you're doing that!
When you say the conical burrs are proven I want to see the scientific research behind all this? The only real thing that matters is using fresh coffee. All the other things are just semantics.
@@Iceman-xe7jo no actually fresh coffee is not the only thing that matters. You can find numerous grind distribution graphs on these grinders online if you want the scientific data. The geometry of a burr is incredibly important to highlight specific flavor profiles. Fines produce less clarity and more body where burrs like the 98mm Hu ssp produce very little fines with high clarity and almost tea like body. While it is a matter of preference, we do know how burrs affect the flavor profile of coffee. The same goes for burrs in conicals. The niche produces a wide distribution where a commandante has a very uniform grind making it good for pour over. This is the reason the niche makes a overall good cup across multiple coffees but is not used by the light roast brew enthusiast. Things like water temperature, mineralization, puck prep, etc also have a lot to do with getting the best cup of coffee outside the scope of fresh beans. If we are being honest super fresh beans are actually a downfall and need to be off gases for a week before they are at peak performance. For the novice these things may not interest you but for the enthusiast, having numerous grinders with conical and flats can be a fun way to experiment with different single origin coffees / roast levels to get the best flavor out of that coffee. From my own results, the niche is great for milk drinks and flat burrs of the specialita/ df64 best when chasing the nuanced flavors of fruity single origins
This one feels like more of an issue of non standardised terminology tbh
Generally assumption is that:
Flats produce a more 'precise'/clear flavour when properly dialled and are harder to dial in because they have a tighter grind distribution
Conicals produce a less 'precise'/more muted or muddled flavour because their particle size distribution is all over the place comparatively.
Many would say that this makes a conical more of a balanced/muted flavour for an equivalent accuracy of dial-in. Equally if you are close to a perfect dial in on a conical, you are probably still going to pick up some unwanted acidity (and bitterness), because trying to go and finer or increasing brew ratio/time is going to overextract the increased number of fines that a conical produces.
Conversely, a perfectly dialled in flat burr may taste like acidity and bitterness are 'well balanced' because you have more accurately honed in on the exact flavour profile the bean has the capacity to produce. But in practice that is not 'balanced' so much as precise because less of those off flavours are being produced in the cup. Balanced implies blended or muted flavour combinations, as opposed to the clarity of flavour that flats can provide
I think the way that the general rules were presented in the video was quite poor and misleading, but can absolutely see where the rationale may be coming from
I paid my Ascaso I-steel mini 180€ ten years ago (it still works great !): now to get the same thing i should lose 400€, my salary didn't follow this double inflation==> i think this market is becoming crazy like other ones (sneakers, clothes, property business, food, restaurant, apple smartphone etc....).
Idem for my Ascaso Steel Uno Prof that i paid 460€ ten years ago, a equivalent model should cost 800/900€ now....
I think what you're seeing is hyper-specialized equipment that just keeps on getting better. If your grinder works for you, that's all that matters at the end of the day.
Eureka atom 75 or oro single dose
the Oro Singe Dose.
very quiet original sound
I do NOT recommend RDT for the Eurika Oro. Ive had mine since they first shipped (improved version) and i get genuine zero retention even without the bellows. It comes down to the beans. Mine are local roasted organic beans never longer than 30 days from roast max. I Started dosing 18g then freezing individually bagged and in vials. The result is perfect. If I travel the coffee is still like day 7 after roast even 6 weeks later..
I personally own one and noticed this as well.
You failed to mention the main benefit of the Oro, its a shitload more quiet than the other two !
this is true!
Thats 499 pounds not euros for the Niche hehe
To counter Jimmy’s claim that “the Niche just feels cheap and not premium,” here is an excerpt from Pull and Pour’s review:
“Quality:
The Niche Zero has a metal body and solid oak features. It is made of high-quality materials and is undoubtedly a premium product. Martin Nicholson, the designer of the Niche Zero, is “an accomplished designer with over 30 years of industry and design experience.” This experience clearly shows in the smaller details of the product and helps contribute to the sense that the Niche Zero is a well-built and an exceptional piece of coffee equipment.”
As I stated in a previous comment, I own a Niche and disagree with this review. It does not feel cheap at all. It’s a premium grinder. That’s the consensus of every authoritative review, so take this amateur review with a grain of salt.
Always appreciate the feedback.
This video should begin by stating the obvious conflict of interest, that the Niche is the only one not sold by Clive. From someone that has both a Niche and a Eureka, the Niche feels more premium and enjoyable to use and sounds much better. Both can make great espresso though. This video feels very biased.
Thanks for your feedback, Nelson! Jimmy actually doesn't work for Clive. We sent him the Eureka and DF64 and asked him to compare them to the Niche (which he's owned for years). We know how popular the Niche is so we wanted to talk about it!
Ok, I see. It’s a bit of a grey zone then. Even in these situations, COI statements are certainly welcome though.
@@clivecoffeedo you sell the niche? Do you ship to puerto Rico?
We do not sell the Niche. We do ship to PR.@@mannyr8795
Almost discounting this whole thing just based on opening statements where reviewer feels RDT is borderline requirement. It's a crutch for bad static handling of a grinder.
Sorry Clive…. This is a pure bias commentary for the Eureka. Why? Because this is the grinder they sell! Niche is not part of their line so the review on it is weak. Trust me, I have the Niche and it’s hands down superior to the Eureka.
Thanks Tommy! Actually, Jimmy doesn't work at Clive and owns the Niche himself, we didn't send that to him, but asked him to review and compare.
Did you come here for some confirmation-bias and were disappointed? lol
@@bluemystic7501 you can’t beat the build quality and grind along with price point with the Niche. I had the Eureka, and although a good machine it performed no better or worse than the Niche. It’s the price that screams WAY TOO HIGH!
@@tommyboy4128 The Eureka performed no better or worse than the Eureka?