As a Chinese, I read this when it first came out in late 2010s. Back then I was still in elementary school and this book opened up a whole new world for me;) Even now it still remains in my top 5.
I really enjoyed this!!!!! Ive had a hard time finding videos that talk about this book in depth, mostly people doing non-spoiler stuff! I really agree with a lot of the opinions and feelings you guys had about the books! def will check out your other videos !!
I didn’t read the English translation but read the Chinese version of the trilogy instead. However, based on the Chinese version, Frederic Taylor’s “plan” was to develop a type of short ranged weapon employing a technology called the “ball lightning” against the trisolarans. But as the wall breaker called him out, his true plan was to use the “ball lightning” weapon against Earth’s own fleet right before the actual battle in space, which in turn will evaporate the earth’s soldiers to ashes but transform them into quantum ghosts in the process. Taylor hopes this quantum ghost army would fulfill their duty as soldiers to battle against the trisolarans. “Ball lighting” is another book written by Cixin Liu, but was not translated to English when the three body problem trilogy was published in the US, so the translator actually made some changes to the original script as English readers would not have any context as to what the “ball lightning” is.
"Ball Lightning" was later translated into English. I read it a couple years ago. It was such a slow burn that I almost stopped reading it halfway through, but I am happy that I finished it. The second half was worth the slog.😊
fantastic discussion! I just finished the series and have been trying to get more info or thoughts on it. idk if I'll read the fan fiction but I loved the way the Deaths End finished.
The ending of deaths end for me was a bit disappointing. Probably because i personally didn't want the trilogy to end. What a great series! I also came to this discussion right after finishing deaths end.
Im just now reading CiXIN’s work. I use it as a reward for doing myJapanese study. I’ve just scratched the surface of 3 body., So I suppose it will be months before I can listen to your podcasts, however I am now subscribed.
Ever since I finished the trilogy I have been constantly keeping up with thr current state of particle and fundamental physics. Like damn it we need to progress we DONT HAVE TIME!!!
I think balancing that, we really need to stop diverting productive economies away from protecting the wealth of old money, old energy, and unproductive money holes like speculative real-estate holdings which don't actually produce anything. We could be making far more people far more educated & empowered to participate in solving these problems, the more minds & bodies we nurture & provide for, the better our odds of surviving or even flourishing. And this planet is probably the best place we'll ever have to live - the way we're treating it right now is like we're just tourists passing through, the mess + damage we create is somebody else's problem, and there'll be somewhere else to go once we're done with it, as if there's another Earth just next door.
One thing that I think really aided the translation of this series is that the translator is also a sci-fi writer who emigrated from China to the US. I'm not sure how common that is for translators.
@@ANTIStraussian its a space story mate. Its not any different than starwars or startrek.... its just you have been convinced that its all real. Its not
With the escapism, I think the reason it couldn't succeed in the book, is because it would just take up so many resources from people who would be left behind, that they would be difficult to amass without some type of crime against humanity.
Never came across a hard scifi cosmic horror before this series. What a scope and concept. Gives me hope for my own stories which are much sillier but still deal with a grand scale.
@@FantologyPodcast if you have any interest in something equally horror and raw emotion but also at times more like Futurama, poking fun at science fiction itself, I can share with you what I've been working to get off the ground. If not I hope you can find more stories that you enjoy.
I have not read the trilogy yet but in terms of hard science fiction or just general science speculation, the best channel on RUclips is Isaac Arthur science and futurism. What I like about your channel is it comes from a literary point of view
What a great podcast! I just didn't understand one thing: One person read The Name of the wind in Spanish, it appeared that he was saying that Spanish was the original language, which is not. Did I misunderstood or you knew that and just read in a second language?
Thanks! I don't remember exactly what Jake said there, but I can assure you we do know NotW was written in English. He just listened to it in Spanish for fun
Hey no worries at all. I wish I remember what it was exactly that we said so I could answer your question. This is one of our older episodes, so it's been some time for me
SPOILERS BELOW. You have been warned. Here's a thought. The main premise of the series is that the universe is a dark forest because civilizations cannot know each others intentions and therefore conclude the only way to survive is to destroy other civilizations before they become threats. However, the books also say that the universe was once 11 dimensional and that the speed of light was nearly infinite. Then it posits that those 11 dimensional aliens used dimensional collapse weapons to destroy their competition, which also ended up collapsing the whole universe into lower dimensions. If the speed of light was infinite, how is it even possible that those higher dimensional civilizations could have not known about each others or their mutual intentions and suspicions? There would be no causation, and all knowledge would be instantaneous. In fact, how could there exist any more than single conscious being in that kind of state?
First of all dark forest theory doesn’t need to be true back when speed of light is infinite. Second, even if speed of light is infinite, the sight of a civilizations can be blocked by things like interstellar dust, nebula, etc
Luo Ji's mind girlfriend shows his ability to come up with complex scenarios in his brain and keep things ordered. It shows his incredible creativity. It shows that he's perfect to be a Wallfacer.
Spoilers Think the point of luo ji's wife shenanigans was to point how depraved and borderline sociopathic he was. He couldn't even remember name of the girl he had slept with that died in his place. You need to be a little out there in order to come up with some of his conclusions and be the perfect swordholder - see thomas wade who'd gladly sell his mother to a whorehouse. Also, his strong and borderline magical imagination must have helped him when he spent 50 years staring at a wall as the swordholder He was probably in his 'eden' throughout that time That his relationship with her is shallow (and probably fake, as she likely was a government agent) is evident - she leaves him shortly after she is awakebed from hibernation
a swordholder needs to be cold in heart as could be. Luo ji couldn't afford to love when he needed to show Trisolarans his determination of mutual destruction. Remember that sophons were watching and evaluating his mindset.
Though I've not read this series, this video, various comments here, and the obvious title reference to Marcel Proust's masterpiece (I'm not sure if masterpiece is exactly the right word, as its sort of his only work.) A La Recherche du Temps Perdu, have me interested. I was wondering if, other than in scale and scope, these novels reflected in other ways the influence and example of Proust's precedent, (prose style? narrative circularity? recovered memory/ art as reality? pastry? fluidity of sexuality/evolution towards same-sex sexuality in tandem with evolution as an artist/curator of memory? the substitution of the ethical by the aesthetic as the central, essential sentient value? etc.,etc., etc.). Thanks for the mini mind blowing, cheers.
I didn't read any of these, so all I have to go on is this vid and another I listened to -- which is prob how this one popped up in my suggestions but in the other they mentioned some climate change stuff, like I guess earth was just going to waste with impending doom of new ownership, or something like that and it sounds like a lot of what you guys were talking about was just a metaphor for climate change and how we perceive and deal with it which I think is fairly typical of sci fi to take a current real world issue and coat it with so much peanut butter you end up ingesting it w/o realizing it
No, exactly the opposite. There is climate change because we didn't let any escape. But they get through that in a couple chapters. This series span millenia
Great review. I agree and disagree on lots of points but most notably, I feel the characters were not weakly written at all. Also, Yun Tiangming's fairy tales were excellent. They were a highlight of the series. I do agree that Death's End was written "too quickly" after the majority of the book. A great philosophical ending but it lacked in development.
Just finished the 4th one. When the doomsday battle happened I was like wooo! No no no ! Stop! And I'm still wrapping my mind around the human computer part from the first one.
I enjoyed the casual way you discussed such heady concepts. I see you guys are mostly fantasy focused, but let me suggest an incredible book. Blindsight, by Peter Watt.
The "dream girl" of Luo Ji would have been called a Tulpa if it was written by anyone except by a Chinese where they are not allowed to reference Tibetan mythology if they want to get published.
btw although this is my present I realize this is nearly 2 yrs ago for you guys, but I'm watching another vid on this and the initial premise kind of echoes back to mote in god's eye imo idk if anybody read that, but if not, check it out cuz I thought it was p good
Chun Xin (can't remember the exact spelling) pretty much ruined the last book for me. She just had me pulling my hair out at every climax ooohh my GOD. The really meta ending wasn't my thing either. It strikes me as a flaw of science fiction: No one seems to know how to end their stories. Think 2001 a space odyssey or carl sagans contact, etc. Dark Forest remains the ultimate science fiction novel, at least from what I've read. Nothing even comes close to the mind bending science and thought provoking ideas. Also it's kind of a crazy coincidence (or maybe not) that you guys are jumping from 3 body to Malazan. I just started reading Garden of the Moon after the netflix adaptation of 3 body re-sparked my interest. There must be something about these two book series that appeals to certain types of people.
This is how I felt about the ending. The great universe is going to collapse into a singularity after Guan Yifang and Cheng Xin lived 10 years in the pocket universe. The time speed in pocket universe is much faster than the great one. So when the fish tank returns to the newborn universe, it is probably not a brand-new 11D universe anymore. The ringers (The ring) in 4D space were only interested in the fish Guan carried before they died. Which made readers wonder why they were so interested in the fish, and if there was any connection between those 2 fish tanks. Is it possible that they found or knew the fish (tank) before?! There are another 2 cosmic sociology axioms in Book 3. Axiom No.3 is 'Everything has its end'. Remember in Norway they were trapped in maelstrom. The old man said to her (Cheng Xin), “The night I finished building the lighthouse, I took my boat out to the sea to look at it from a distance. And all of a sudden I had a thought: Death is the only lighthouse that is always lit. No matter where you sail, ultimately, you must turn toward it. Everything fades in the world, but Death endures.”. "Everything has its end" is the theme of the book3. Which means the great universe could really end without the coming of next one due to the lack of the mass of the fish tank and other pocket universes, but it won't because we knew the ring must've known the fish and the fish tank. The fish tank was found in this universe. This universe already got the mass (the fish tank and other pocket universes ...) stolen from the previous one. Every cycle gets its stolen mass from the previous one. All Cycles are connected as a closed chain, a ring, an ouroboros (uroboros). 'The universe is grand, but life is grander. We're certain to meet again.' Not in this cycle, but in the next one. Cosmic sociology axiom No.4.
@@Idylliac It's been awhile since I read it but I don't remember anything significant about a fish tank, so I'm a little confused reading this. I also don't know what you're refering to as 'the ring'.
@@coreyrachar9694 They (Blue space and Gravity ) went into the 4D space after they pushed the button to broadcast the location of Trisolar system. In that 4D space, they found the ring. They communicated with it. ".... When the sea is dying, the fish have to gather into a puddle. The puddle is also drying, and all the fish are going to disappear. ...." In the Book, the fish tank is referred to as ecological sphere, and Guan happened to carry one with him.
Did anyone notice a chilling detail? Cheng Xin might have well made her THIRD apocalyptic mistake and doomed the following universe. What does she leave for the subsequent universe to discover? A closed eco-system containing fish. In the fairy tale, what was the species whose release doomed the kingdom? Fish! Living in a small container with finite resources, they learned over the eons to be extremely competitive and when accidentally released they wrought havoc onto the universe. What if the tiny fish one day end up being invasive monsters in the new universe?
Why do fish become monsters? Standing on the fish's point of view, they may think humans are monsters. At that time, they had their own civilization, and humans may no longer existed. Humans are just a carrier of civilization. The most important thing in civilization is soul Instead of form, fish also have feelings, love. I think the high-level civilization is formless. They have the power to change themselves into what they like, and the freedom to change figure may be as important as the freedom to speak. Any species in the dark forest is a monster to others. When human beings become an advanced civilization, he is also a monster of other species.
@@wygds2097 'Why do fish become monsters?' 'Any species in the dark forest is a monster to others.' Well, there, looks like you answered your own question! And a fish is literally a monster from another universe. A monster which had countless eons to evolve in a competitive environment compared to the new universe. How monstrous is that! Again, Cheng Xin's last mistake, something she, like many others, repeatedly did, was antropomorphizing the universe. To us a quaint little bowl with a fish inside may represent hope and optimism for the future, since to us small fish like the goldfish are cute and harmless things, but that simply might not be the case for the denizens of another universe (it is not even the case in our own universe where goldfish left in the wild can wreak havoc on the environment and grow to monstruous proportions!) Think of how the entire thing started. A woman traumatised by the murder of her father and political repression in her country not only carelessly broadcasts a signal but invites the aliens right in to invade. In her view, humanity is a monster, but she absolutely fails to realize how much saintly we are compared to the rest of the universe that is filled with species that would gladly genocide each other without a second thought. I constantly hear these idiotic misanthropic statement about how humans are evil and animals are good 'because they only act on instinct', which is complete bunk because even the highly cognitive species like chimps and dolphins engage in staggering displays of brutality. In most species, infanticide is not given even the tiniest thought. Chimps will snatch and eat each other's babies like it's nothing. And those 'loyal dogs' people so harp about will tear each other up to shreds if let loose. The entire theme of the books is how a relatively comfortable lifestyle we now enjoy warps our sense of perspective when looking at the world at large, to disastrous effect.
@@SerbAtheist I understand what you're saying is scary, it could very well lead to fish ruling the next universe. But I don't agree with what you said about Cheng Xin's mistake. I don't think it was the author's intention. Cheng Xin's behavior was in line with her expectations. Her threat index was much lower than Wade's. She did what she could. It's not her fault. The swordholder's job is actually cruel, Will you kill all human beings on earth one day? That's part of the swordholder's job. It's not her job. And that is why people think Luoji is evil in the end.Everyone thinks they are doing the right thing. People chose Cheng Xin. We should think more about why human beings choose Cheng Xin instead of Wade. I think the inability of the masses to rationally choose capable leaders is the reason for the tragedy.It's irresponsible for us to pick the wrong leader and blame her:"It's all your fault!". Fish can also be used as a hope. The next universe has nothing to do with human beings. Other small universes will also leave something behind.Whether it will develop in a good direction or a bad direction is unpredictable.Even if it's result-oriented, we will never konw the result. So we shouldn't judge her by that.
What I think is even more frightening is that the Trisolaran planned all this to make Cheng Xin the swordholder. The Trisolaran makes humans relax their vigilance and hate Luoji. This man can kill everyone at any time for as long as he wants. Hate Luoji makes sense. Looking at the current political propaganda, it is difficult to keep the masses rational.
Except the fish will be a 3 dimensional being living in a 10 dimensional world. Like saying a piece of paper could take over the earth if it had enough time.
The book is great, fantastic in many ways...but it does a disservice to mankind multiple times. In the midst of the science blackout, nations would compete viciously within themselves to defeat the Sophon and find a place in the solar system, or even beyond it, where research could be conducted and then beamed down into the earth. The idea that there would be no open or secret initiatives to move people is patently absurd, we have lots of examples in history of humans evacuating a doomed place. It is never the case that everyone makes it out...but it is also not often the case that people don't leave anyway, even when those forced to stay are forced to by a lack of means. It would have happened without a doubt. The idea that after 400 years of planning or some such, mankind would send out EVERY fleet at the same time to meet the probe is also patently absurd, as there would be historians, generals, and just generally educated politicians who would be like "But why do that?". Keeping forces in reserve is the most basic of basic of basic of combat tactics. We gain Nothing by showing our entire hand, even to an enemy we have convinced ourselves is inferior to us. There is just standard protocol that would keep us from doing something that stupid. I mean what if they launched an explosive at us? they could catch so many ships in one shot it just makes no sense, and we should see that coming, it is something we would plan to do in their place. The idea that they would entrust one person with the kill switch, and not double up with an automated system or some kind, or multiple people to turn the key and blow the earth, is absurd. The idea that they would choose the "Mother of Mankind" figure to hold the sword is also really really fucking stupid, and it would be viciously contended by many many many world powers barring absurdly convenient circumstances. Its less likely that they would choose someone for it, and not train someone for it instead. The Sword bearer is basically condemning themselves to a life of meditation...so just choosing some popular person from the public is a sure way to drive someone insane and therefore get them to press the button without reason, or, as we saw, not press the thing at all. The idea that, knowing that we are going to be struck out of the Dark forest, that we would just assume that the weapon used to wipe out Tri-solaris would be the same weapon used on us is absurd. That is such a huge assumption, the Bunker plan was NEVER viable. Creating Extra solar, sunless colonies and sending them in multiple directions at regular speed would have been a safer bet, muchless at lightspeed via the bending and curving of spacetime. We have now watched TWO stars fucking vanish out of the sky from the dark forest phenomenon, and seriously, a large enough proportion of mankind is going to sit there and think that remaining in the solar system is any kind of viable option? Look, if the lightspeed engine damaged electronics and space time, then just build it, launch the new colony at sublight speeds until it is a safe distance from the Solar System, and then get the fuck out of there! The war that almost happened over the lightspeed engine is ridiculous, and the answer given by our mother of mankind, which is just to abandon it and our future, is also utterly ridiculous. These things either infuriated me or broke my suspension of disbelief. Mankind is not even organized enough to fuck up that unanimously. At all times, utter chaos was more likely than the organized Total shit shows that we consistently put up. Crowd mentality does make us dumb as rocks, but lots of these would be the results of things other than literal crowd mentality, and, again, crowd mentality is still not organized enough to screw up in one direction this badly this many times. Mankind can literally do nothing right in this series, outside of the three or four individuals who end up with a disproportionate power of choice due to their circumstances. They can do things right, but literally not a single other soul can. Faced with the same scenario in reality, mankind would survive. There would be a hundred thousand times more chaos, more death, and abandonment, and maybe even cruelty, but with just the 7 or 8 billion minds we have right now, there would be so many survival plans in clandestine operation that it would be hard for the Tri-solars to keep track of an understand them all, to say nothing of the Wall Facers that the US would make, Russia would make, etc. etc. etc. Crazier shit than just one author can imagine would be happening all over, and the book makes no real attempt to account for that. It would be messy, sloppy, all over the place, but, it would be a better response than the uniform, head in the sand responses we see from Earth at nearly every turn.
Yup the book is basically saying that feminity is weak and emotional and irrational. The future human society is extremely feminized and thus make stupid irrational decisions based on the power of love or whatever. The people who are right in the books are two men: Thomas Wade, who is a hypermasculine ruthless figure and Luo Ji, who is a cold, rational person.
I agree the cultural assumptions that the author makes for the world based on his world view and eastern values was hardest thing to buy into. like when he was saying they are just normal people now and how hard it would be to meet the mayor i was like Wait what, bad translation? then i thought about 3BP and other examples of all the rank and class bullshit we do not subscribe to in America and realized it isnt the translation its the way they think. the dark forest can not be the solution to the fermi paradox but it can be a reality, rare intelligence in a dark forest is extremely likely. People bring up stuff like "Well bio signatures" the sun is a grain of sand and earth is a microbe on it, yes it can be seen with technology but we have not shown any evidence of intelligence until relatively recently. life is abundant and everywhere even seeing false bio signatures in our dead solar system. life is not the threat, intelligence or life able to expand beyond its planet is Stop an enemy before it can become a threat, very accepted principle humanity lives by. imagine the long game. what can humanity be in millions or billions of years. If there are aliens that know where we are and can stop us why wouldn't they do it. Better stay quiet every time someone brings up the dark forest filter or mentions the fermi paradox because I read a few books I can not sleep. I need to talk to someone who understands and appreciates the existential threat. Life grows, that is the fundamental property of life. humanity could colonize the entire galaxy in under a million years with the speed and tech we can produce today. (not saying we can build the ships yet) in a billion years what could life that began on earth be how about a trillion years? Matter in the universe is a set amount. Life able to travel through space and left to spread will and it will expand and without doubt at some point need and control all reusable resources and use up all limited resources. it is simple math, there is no threat within normal thinking that's on a human time frame. but the problem is not just human. it actually exists in the micro on earth already with virus and microbes that need more and more until they completely run out. Any other life out in the universe is our enemy unless they are purely benevolent and then they are our prey or one of us will be assimilated. It isnt about fuel and building materials as it is about stars and matter we do not even understand its possible applications yet. . Simple facts about cosmic sociology and hobbesian theory - If i am relatively logical and intelligent and I understand this, then it is possible that anyone else out there would consider it and if they do I must act first, that is the dark forest. But yes the logic and philosophies the author forced on foreign cultures bother me too. book still terrifies me.
China's cultural revolution = The Purge = if you a gross generalization. Luo Ji's wife served as an emotional bondage to keep Luo Ji loyal to the wallfacer program. Luo Ji and his wife had 5 real years to develop a real relationship. And yes, the original text in Chinese is much better than English translation. I find the English version kind of dry.
Ugh, you want know what this book is about??? It's about 400 pages of crap. Even ignoring the bad science (I'm not being picky), there are obvious logic flaws in the story. There are pages of pointless exposition with no payoff. I could never recommend this book on any level.
As a Chinese, I read this when it first came out in late 2010s. Back then I was still in elementary school and this book opened up a whole new world for me;) Even now it still remains in my top 5.
What are the other 4?
“As a Chinese” “read this it middle school” you really need to lie about this online?
I really enjoyed this!!!!! Ive had a hard time finding videos that talk about this book in depth, mostly people doing non-spoiler stuff! I really agree with a lot of the opinions and feelings you guys had about the books! def will check out your other videos !!
Thanks for the nice review! This is one of our earlier ones, so I hope it wasn't too rough. Hopefully we've covered some other things that you enjoy!
I didn’t read the English translation but read the Chinese version of the trilogy instead. However, based on the Chinese version, Frederic Taylor’s “plan” was to develop a type of short ranged weapon employing a technology called the “ball lightning” against the trisolarans. But as the wall breaker called him out, his true plan was to use the “ball lightning” weapon against Earth’s own fleet right before the actual battle in space, which in turn will evaporate the earth’s soldiers to ashes but transform them into quantum ghosts in the process. Taylor hopes this quantum ghost army would fulfill their duty as soldiers to battle against the trisolarans. “Ball lighting” is another book written by Cixin Liu, but was not translated to English when the three body problem trilogy was published in the US, so the translator actually made some changes to the original script as English readers would not have any context as to what the “ball lightning” is.
"Ball Lightning" was later translated into English. I read it a couple years ago. It was such a slow burn that I almost stopped reading it halfway through, but I am happy that I finished it. The second half was worth the slog.😊
fantastic discussion! I just finished the series and have been trying to get more info or thoughts on it. idk if I'll read the fan fiction but I loved the way the Deaths End finished.
Thanks for watching!
The ending of deaths end for me was a bit disappointing. Probably because i personally didn't want the trilogy to end. What a great series! I also came to this discussion right after finishing deaths end.
It's such a mind blowing series throughout. You NEED to talk about it after finishing
Da Shi is my favourite character!
Glad you liked the series!
Im just now reading CiXIN’s work. I use it as a reward for doing myJapanese study. I’ve just scratched the surface of 3 body., So I suppose it will be months before I can listen to your podcasts, however I am now subscribed.
Ever since I finished the trilogy I have been constantly keeping up with thr current state of particle and fundamental physics. Like damn it we need to progress we DONT HAVE TIME!!!
The sophons are at work lol
@@eriksanchez7286 naw we just cracked fusion a few days ago! Let's go!!!
@@EmperorFist323 lol
I think balancing that, we really need to stop diverting productive economies away from protecting the wealth of old money, old energy, and unproductive money holes like speculative real-estate holdings which don't actually produce anything.
We could be making far more people far more educated & empowered to participate in solving these problems, the more minds & bodies we nurture & provide for, the better our odds of surviving or even flourishing.
And this planet is probably the best place we'll ever have to live - the way we're treating it right now is like we're just tourists passing through, the mess + damage we create is somebody else's problem, and there'll be somewhere else to go once we're done with it, as if there's another Earth just next door.
One thing that I think really aided the translation of this series is that the translator is also a sci-fi writer who emigrated from China to the US. I'm not sure how common that is for translators.
That's cool to know. Thanks for the insight!
The Trisolaris system is based in the real-world system of Alpha Centauri - Earth's closest stellar neighbor.
Lmfao …. Real world eh?? Lol
@@stephenstuart7686 what's so funny?
@@ANTIStraussian your perception of reality is funny.
@@stephenstuart7686 what do you mean? Why is the real alpha centauri system funny?
@@ANTIStraussian its a space story mate.
Its not any different than starwars or startrek.... its just you have been convinced that its all real. Its not
With the escapism, I think the reason it couldn't succeed in the book, is because it would just take up so many resources from people who would be left behind, that they would be difficult to amass without some type of crime against humanity.
I always wanted abandonment as an option
Never came across a hard scifi cosmic horror before this series. What a scope and concept. Gives me hope for my own stories which are much sillier but still deal with a grand scale.
Crazy mind blowing and horrifying stuff here for sure. Thanks for watching!
@@FantologyPodcast if you have any interest in something equally horror and raw emotion but also at times more like Futurama, poking fun at science fiction itself, I can share with you what I've been working to get off the ground. If not I hope you can find more stories that you enjoy.
Feel free to email us at fantologybooks@gmail.com ! Can't promise anything as we're already way too busy though
I have not read the trilogy yet but in terms of hard science fiction or just general science speculation, the best channel on RUclips is Isaac Arthur science and futurism. What I like about your channel is it comes from a literary point of view
Thank you for the podcast. I really enjoyed listening to it.
Thanks for the kind words!
What a great podcast! I just didn't understand one thing: One person read The Name of the wind in Spanish, it appeared that he was saying that Spanish was the original language, which is not. Did I misunderstood or you knew that and just read in a second language?
Thanks! I don't remember exactly what Jake said there, but I can assure you we do know NotW was written in English. He just listened to it in Spanish for fun
@@FantologyPodcast my bad! English is not my first language so I struggle sometimes to understand the context.
Hey no worries at all. I wish I remember what it was exactly that we said so I could answer your question. This is one of our older episodes, so it's been some time for me
SPOILERS BELOW. You have been warned.
Here's a thought. The main premise of the series is that the universe is a dark forest because civilizations cannot know each others intentions and therefore conclude the only way to survive is to destroy other civilizations before they become threats. However, the books also say that the universe was once 11 dimensional and that the speed of light was nearly infinite. Then it posits that those 11 dimensional aliens used dimensional collapse weapons to destroy their competition, which also ended up collapsing the whole universe into lower dimensions.
If the speed of light was infinite, how is it even possible that those higher dimensional civilizations could have not known about each others or their mutual intentions and suspicions? There would be no causation, and all knowledge would be instantaneous. In fact, how could there exist any more than single conscious being in that kind of state?
🤯
😅 that's a great point. Ooops
PLS notice that the speed of light is NOT a premise of dark forest theory.
First of all dark forest theory doesn’t need to be true back when speed of light is infinite. Second, even if speed of light is infinite, the sight of a civilizations can be blocked by things like interstellar dust, nebula, etc
Luo Ji's mind girlfriend shows his ability to come up with complex scenarios in his brain and keep things ordered. It shows his incredible creativity. It shows that he's perfect to be a Wallfacer.
Spoilers
Think the point of luo ji's wife shenanigans was to point how depraved and borderline sociopathic he was. He couldn't even remember name of the girl he had slept with that died in his place. You need to be a little out there in order to come up with some of his conclusions and be the perfect swordholder - see thomas wade who'd gladly sell his mother to a whorehouse. Also, his strong and borderline magical imagination must have helped him when he spent 50 years staring at a wall as the swordholder He was probably in his 'eden' throughout that time
That his relationship with her is shallow (and probably fake, as she likely was a government agent) is evident - she leaves him shortly after she is awakebed from hibernation
a swordholder needs to be cold in heart as could be. Luo ji couldn't afford to love when he needed to show Trisolarans his determination of mutual destruction. Remember that sophons were watching and evaluating his mindset.
Though I've not read this series, this video, various comments here, and the obvious title reference to Marcel Proust's masterpiece (I'm not sure if masterpiece is exactly the right word, as its sort of his only work.) A La Recherche du Temps Perdu, have me interested. I was wondering if, other than in scale and scope, these novels reflected in other ways the influence and example of Proust's precedent, (prose style? narrative circularity? recovered memory/ art as reality? pastry? fluidity of sexuality/evolution towards same-sex sexuality in tandem with evolution as an artist/curator of memory? the substitution of the ethical by the aesthetic as the central, essential sentient value? etc.,etc., etc.). Thanks for the mini mind blowing, cheers.
Normal book bad guy is bad. Three body: he's bad for a reason.
I didn't read any of these, so all I have to go on is this vid and another I listened to -- which is prob how this one popped up in my suggestions
but in the other they mentioned some climate change stuff, like I guess earth was just going to waste with impending doom of new ownership, or something like that
and it sounds like a lot of what you guys were talking about was just a metaphor for climate change and how we perceive and deal with it
which I think is fairly typical of sci fi to take a current real world issue and coat it with so much peanut butter you end up ingesting it w/o realizing it
No, exactly the opposite. There is climate change because we didn't let any escape. But they get through that in a couple chapters. This series span millenia
Great review. I agree and disagree on lots of points but most notably, I feel the characters were not weakly written at all. Also, Yun Tiangming's fairy tales were excellent. They were a highlight of the series.
I do agree that Death's End was written "too quickly" after the majority of the book. A great philosophical ending but it lacked in development.
Just finished the 4th one. When the doomsday battle happened I was like wooo! No no no ! Stop! And I'm still wrapping my mind around the human computer part from the first one.
Plenty of mind blowing ideas 🤯
I enjoyed the casual way you discussed such heady concepts. I see you guys are mostly fantasy focused, but let me suggest an incredible book. Blindsight, by Peter Watt.
Thanks for watching and for the suggestion! We can always use more on the tbr list
The "dream girl" of Luo Ji would have been called a Tulpa if it was written by anyone except by a Chinese where they are not allowed to reference Tibetan mythology if they want to get published.
btw although this is my present I realize this is nearly 2 yrs ago for you guys, but I'm watching another vid on this and the initial premise kind of echoes back to mote in god's eye imo
idk if anybody read that, but if not, check it out cuz I thought it was p good
Thanks for watching! 3BP is a fantastic series. You're right though, 2 years ago makes it hard to remember details
Great podcast! I really enjoyed it
Thank you! Much appreciated 😌
Chun Xin (can't remember the exact spelling) pretty much ruined the last book for me. She just had me pulling my hair out at every climax ooohh my GOD. The really meta ending wasn't my thing either. It strikes me as a flaw of science fiction: No one seems to know how to end their stories. Think 2001 a space odyssey or carl sagans contact, etc.
Dark Forest remains the ultimate science fiction novel, at least from what I've read. Nothing even comes close to the mind bending science and thought provoking ideas.
Also it's kind of a crazy coincidence (or maybe not) that you guys are jumping from 3 body to Malazan. I just started reading Garden of the Moon after the netflix adaptation of 3 body re-sparked my interest. There must be something about these two book series that appeals to certain types of people.
This is how I felt about the ending.
The great universe is going to collapse into a singularity after Guan Yifang and Cheng Xin lived 10 years in the pocket universe. The time speed in pocket universe is much faster than the great one. So when the fish tank returns to the newborn universe, it is probably not a brand-new 11D universe anymore. The ringers (The ring) in 4D space were only interested in the fish Guan carried before they died. Which made readers wonder why they were so interested in the fish, and if there was any connection between those 2 fish tanks. Is it possible that they found or knew the fish (tank) before?!
There are another 2 cosmic sociology axioms in Book 3. Axiom No.3 is 'Everything has its end'. Remember in Norway they were trapped in maelstrom. The old man said to her (Cheng Xin), “The night I finished building the lighthouse, I took my boat out to the sea to look at it from a distance. And all of a sudden I had a thought: Death is the only lighthouse that is always lit. No matter where you sail, ultimately, you must turn toward it. Everything fades in the world, but Death endures.”. "Everything has its end" is the theme of the book3.
Which means the great universe could really end without the coming of next one due to the lack of the mass of the fish tank and other pocket universes, but it won't because we knew the ring must've known the fish and the fish tank. The fish tank was found in this universe. This universe already got the mass (the fish tank and other pocket universes ...) stolen from the previous one. Every cycle gets its stolen mass from the previous one. All Cycles are connected as a closed chain, a ring, an ouroboros (uroboros).
'The universe is grand, but life is grander. We're certain to meet again.' Not in this cycle, but in the next one. Cosmic sociology axiom No.4.
@@Idylliac It's been awhile since I read it but I don't remember anything significant about a fish tank, so I'm a little confused reading this. I also don't know what you're refering to as 'the ring'.
@@coreyrachar9694 They (Blue space and Gravity ) went into the 4D space after they pushed the button to broadcast the location of Trisolar system. In that 4D space, they found the ring. They communicated with it.
".... When the sea is dying, the fish have to gather into a puddle. The puddle is also drying, and all the fish are going to disappear. ...."
In the Book, the fish tank is referred to as ecological sphere, and Guan happened to carry one with him.
The droplet reminded me of a Trojan Horse.
Gawd dammit man i thought this review had spoilers, plz do one with spoilers!!!! Damn
i suffered so much from the liberal censorship i'm ready to join the ETO too!
Did anyone notice a chilling detail? Cheng Xin might have well made her THIRD apocalyptic mistake and doomed the following universe.
What does she leave for the subsequent universe to discover? A closed eco-system containing fish. In the fairy tale, what was the species whose release doomed the kingdom? Fish! Living in a small container with finite resources, they learned over the eons to be extremely competitive and when accidentally released they wrought havoc onto the universe. What if the tiny fish one day end up being invasive monsters in the new universe?
Why do fish become monsters? Standing on the fish's point of view, they may think humans are monsters. At that time, they had their own civilization, and humans may no longer existed. Humans are just a carrier of civilization. The most important thing in civilization is soul Instead of form, fish also have feelings, love. I think the high-level civilization is formless. They have the power to change themselves into what they like, and the freedom to change figure may be as important as the freedom to speak.
Any species in the dark forest is a monster to others. When human beings become an advanced civilization, he is also a monster of other species.
@@wygds2097 'Why do fish become monsters?' 'Any species in the dark forest is a monster to others.'
Well, there, looks like you answered your own question! And a fish is literally a monster from another universe. A monster which had countless eons to evolve in a competitive environment compared to the new universe. How monstrous is that!
Again, Cheng Xin's last mistake, something she, like many others, repeatedly did, was antropomorphizing the universe. To us a quaint little bowl with a fish inside may represent hope and optimism for the future, since to us small fish like the goldfish are cute and harmless things, but that simply might not be the case for the denizens of another universe (it is not even the case in our own universe where goldfish left in the wild can wreak havoc on the environment and grow to monstruous proportions!)
Think of how the entire thing started. A woman traumatised by the murder of her father and political repression in her country not only carelessly broadcasts a signal but invites the aliens right in to invade. In her view, humanity is a monster, but she absolutely fails to realize how much saintly we are compared to the rest of the universe that is filled with species that would gladly genocide each other without a second thought.
I constantly hear these idiotic misanthropic statement about how humans are evil and animals are good 'because they only act on instinct', which is complete bunk because even the highly cognitive species like chimps and dolphins engage in staggering displays of brutality. In most species, infanticide is not given even the tiniest thought. Chimps will snatch and eat each other's babies like it's nothing. And those 'loyal dogs' people so harp about will tear each other up to shreds if let loose.
The entire theme of the books is how a relatively comfortable lifestyle we now enjoy warps our sense of perspective when looking at the world at large, to disastrous effect.
@@SerbAtheist I understand what you're saying is scary, it could very well lead to fish ruling the next universe.
But I don't agree with what you said about Cheng Xin's mistake. I don't think it was the author's intention. Cheng Xin's behavior was in line with her expectations. Her threat index was much lower than Wade's. She did what she could. It's not her fault. The swordholder's job is actually cruel, Will you kill all human beings on earth one day? That's part of the swordholder's job. It's not her job. And that is why people think Luoji is evil in the end.Everyone thinks they are doing the right thing.
People chose Cheng Xin. We should think more about why human beings choose Cheng Xin instead of Wade. I think the inability of the masses to rationally choose capable leaders is the reason for the tragedy.It's irresponsible for us to pick the wrong leader and blame her:"It's all your fault!".
Fish can also be used as a hope. The next universe has nothing to do with human beings. Other small universes will also leave something behind.Whether it will develop in a good direction or a bad direction is unpredictable.Even if it's result-oriented, we will never konw the result. So we shouldn't judge her by that.
What I think is even more frightening is that the Trisolaran planned all this to make Cheng Xin the swordholder. The Trisolaran makes humans relax their vigilance and hate Luoji. This man can kill everyone at any time for as long as he wants. Hate Luoji makes sense. Looking at the current political propaganda, it is difficult to keep the masses rational.
Except the fish will be a 3 dimensional being living in a 10 dimensional world. Like saying a piece of paper could take over the earth if it had enough time.
The book is great, fantastic in many ways...but it does a disservice to mankind multiple times.
In the midst of the science blackout, nations would compete viciously within themselves to defeat the Sophon and find a place in the solar system, or even beyond it, where research could be conducted and then beamed down into the earth.
The idea that there would be no open or secret initiatives to move people is patently absurd, we have lots of examples in history of humans evacuating a doomed place. It is never the case that everyone makes it out...but it is also not often the case that people don't leave anyway, even when those forced to stay are forced to by a lack of means. It would have happened without a doubt.
The idea that after 400 years of planning or some such, mankind would send out EVERY fleet at the same time to meet the probe is also patently absurd, as there would be historians, generals, and just generally educated politicians who would be like "But why do that?". Keeping forces in reserve is the most basic of basic of basic of combat tactics. We gain Nothing by showing our entire hand, even to an enemy we have convinced ourselves is inferior to us. There is just standard protocol that would keep us from doing something that stupid. I mean what if they launched an explosive at us? they could catch so many ships in one shot it just makes no sense, and we should see that coming, it is something we would plan to do in their place.
The idea that they would entrust one person with the kill switch, and not double up with an automated system or some kind, or multiple people to turn the key and blow the earth, is absurd. The idea that they would choose the "Mother of Mankind" figure to hold the sword is also really really fucking stupid, and it would be viciously contended by many many many world powers barring absurdly convenient circumstances. Its less likely that they would choose someone for it, and not train someone for it instead. The Sword bearer is basically condemning themselves to a life of meditation...so just choosing some popular person from the public is a sure way to drive someone insane and therefore get them to press the button without reason, or, as we saw, not press the thing at all.
The idea that, knowing that we are going to be struck out of the Dark forest, that we would just assume that the weapon used to wipe out Tri-solaris would be the same weapon used on us is absurd. That is such a huge assumption, the Bunker plan was NEVER viable. Creating Extra solar, sunless colonies and sending them in multiple directions at regular speed would have been a safer bet, muchless at lightspeed via the bending and curving of spacetime. We have now watched TWO stars fucking vanish out of the sky from the dark forest phenomenon, and seriously, a large enough proportion of mankind is going to sit there and think that remaining in the solar system is any kind of viable option? Look, if the lightspeed engine damaged electronics and space time, then just build it, launch the new colony at sublight speeds until it is a safe distance from the Solar System, and then get the fuck out of there! The war that almost happened over the lightspeed engine is ridiculous, and the answer given by our mother of mankind, which is just to abandon it and our future, is also utterly ridiculous.
These things either infuriated me or broke my suspension of disbelief. Mankind is not even organized enough to fuck up that unanimously. At all times, utter chaos was more likely than the organized Total shit shows that we consistently put up. Crowd mentality does make us dumb as rocks, but lots of these would be the results of things other than literal crowd mentality, and, again, crowd mentality is still not organized enough to screw up in one direction this badly this many times. Mankind can literally do nothing right in this series, outside of the three or four individuals who end up with a disproportionate power of choice due to their circumstances.
They can do things right, but literally not a single other soul can. Faced with the same scenario in reality, mankind would survive. There would be a hundred thousand times more chaos, more death, and abandonment, and maybe even cruelty, but with just the 7 or 8 billion minds we have right now, there would be so many survival plans in clandestine operation that it would be hard for the Tri-solars to keep track of an understand them all, to say nothing of the Wall Facers that the US would make, Russia would make, etc. etc. etc. Crazier shit than just one author can imagine would be happening all over, and the book makes no real attempt to account for that. It would be messy, sloppy, all over the place, but, it would be a better response than the uniform, head in the sand responses we see from Earth at nearly every turn.
Yup the book is basically saying that feminity is weak and emotional and irrational. The future human society is extremely feminized and thus make stupid irrational decisions based on the power of love or whatever. The people who are right in the books are two men: Thomas Wade, who is a hypermasculine ruthless figure and Luo Ji, who is a cold, rational person.
I agree the cultural assumptions that the author makes for the world based on his world view and eastern values was hardest thing to buy into. like when he was saying they are just normal people now and how hard it would be to meet the mayor i was like Wait what, bad translation? then i thought about 3BP and other examples of all the rank and class bullshit we do not subscribe to in America and realized it isnt the translation its the way they think.
the dark forest can not be the solution to the fermi paradox but it can be a reality, rare intelligence in a dark forest is extremely likely. People bring up stuff like "Well bio signatures" the sun is a grain of sand and earth is a microbe on it, yes it can be seen with technology but we have not shown any evidence of intelligence until relatively recently. life is abundant and everywhere even seeing false bio signatures in our dead solar system. life is not the threat, intelligence or life able to expand beyond its planet is
Stop an enemy before it can become a threat, very accepted principle humanity lives by. imagine the long game. what can humanity be in millions or billions of years. If there are aliens that know where we are and can stop us why wouldn't they do it.
Better stay quiet
every time someone brings up the dark forest filter or mentions the fermi paradox because I read a few books I can not sleep. I need to talk to someone who understands and appreciates the existential threat.
Life grows, that is the fundamental property of life. humanity could colonize the entire galaxy in under a million years with the speed and tech we can produce today. (not saying we can build the ships yet) in a billion years what could life that began on earth be how about a trillion years?
Matter in the universe is a set amount. Life able to travel through space and left to spread will and it will expand and without doubt at some point need and control all reusable resources and use up all limited resources. it is simple math, there is no threat within normal thinking that's on a human time frame. but the problem is not just human. it actually exists in the micro on earth already with virus and microbes that need more and more until they completely run out.
Any other life out in the universe is our enemy unless they are purely benevolent and then they are our prey or one of us will be assimilated. It isnt about fuel and building materials as it is about stars and matter we do not even understand its possible applications yet. .
Simple facts about cosmic sociology and hobbesian theory - If i am relatively logical and intelligent and I understand this, then it is possible that anyone else out there would consider it and if they do I must act first, that is the dark forest.
But yes the logic and philosophies the author forced on foreign cultures bother me too. book still terrifies me.
I pretty much agree with all of this.
It's so clearly Thanos is the good guy.
Banning "escapism" wasn't very realistic, imo.
Nice review!
Thank you stranger
The imaginary lover thing was horrible.
This video needed timestamps
My favorate charactor is Luo Ji
You are very close to the pronunciation of his name.
I wish we were right on, but to be honest close feels okay too
Good luck following the plot if you're high. Maybe get high after reading the books.
Is anyone else getting literally a billion fucking ads on this video?
Thanks for the comment, I turned off mid roll ads
Not caring too much about the characters may be the point from the communist lens. All had an impact but none more than others.
China's cultural revolution = The Purge = if you a gross generalization. Luo Ji's wife served as an emotional bondage to keep Luo Ji loyal to the wallfacer program. Luo Ji and his wife had 5 real years to develop a real relationship. And yes, the original text in Chinese is much better than English translation. I find the English version kind of dry.
youtube search cultural revolution will get you a clear background setting of the story
For sure. It was great to learn about Chinese history more
I think it’s pronounced like key-sheN Lee-oo . 😂
egotesticle?
Ugh, you want know what this book is about??? It's about 400 pages of crap.
Even ignoring the bad science (I'm not being picky), there are obvious logic flaws in the story.
There are pages of pointless exposition with no payoff.
I could never recommend this book on any level.
Thanks for your opinion
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one of them.
@@Aurica34 Wow that's so original, you should become a science fiction author.
@@paulcooper8818 I don't need to be original you little piece of s h i t
@@Aurica34 Don't worry you're not original, you're very common and vulgar, but it suits you well.
I can’t stop thinking about these books. 🫠