How much better is native Mac gaming vs CrossOver?
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
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Quick video about whether it's worth using CrossOver now that we have so many native ARM Mac game titles coming out now.
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Fulll Windows gaming on CrossOver tutorial with GPTK: • Game Porting Toolkit v...
Timestamps:
00:00 CrossOver vs Mac
02:24 Stray
03:48 SnowRunner
04:54 Baldur's Gate 3
06:35 CrossOver's importance to Mac gaming
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Holy crap.. this video made me realize that my Baldurs Gate cloud save situation might be because my primary play happens on steamdeck but when i go to my macbook none of the saves show up.... are you saying after mac gets the latest client the saves might show up?
"Only 20 fps higher" is huge. 50 fps to 70 fps is a 40% improvement. Wish there were detailed benchmarks for this stuff.
It's great that native games are coming to Mac. But I would like the developers to at least slightly check compatibility with wine/crossover.
An incredibly expensive (in terms of staff time, especially if there are issues) task with next to no upside for the developer.
@@MichaelGGarryI do think they should optimise it anyways as not all people want to use Windows. Some people might want to use Linux. Some people like me use macOS
This is very exciting to me. I’ve started to get into Mac gaming because of videos from you and MrMacRight, even gaming demos from Max Tech and Luke Miani. It looks like the M chips are legit beasts and the high end ones like my fully specced M2 Max are truly competitive with the highest of the high end PCs, but without the optimization, you’ll never see it. One day hopefully most of the mainstream games will be Mac native but until then, having Crossover as a really good translator for many of these it impressive.
Via crossover a lot of indie games works absolutely amazing on Mac without any optimizations.
I expect many releases to be available from the day 1 in future. GPTK changed situation dramatically
I think, all these ports were made in less than 6 months because Apple's porting toolkit has been around only for 6 months. So it's wrong to say that it took 2-3 years to make these ports..
Isn’t porting tool kit based on crossover tech anyways?
@@monkeyfish227 Yes and no. Its using wine but metal transition is done by apple
@@noctethales then is it wrong to say it took three years in the making? Basically saying since Apple silicon came out?
game porting toolkit doesn't port games. it lets you see how they could potentially run
@@SKI79My understanding that the toolkit does more than that. It allows you to see where issues may lie through emulation but the rest of the toolkit helps actually fully port the game.
it will be nice to see you revisiting some of your older videos with current versions of apple silicon and crossover... pretty sure GTA V and other games you tested run better and it will be nice to see the cpu and gpu and code improvements done over these years...
The video i was waiting for!
it's very simple...go and get a fastMx and play windows-games on crossover or use a slower m1/2 and play a potential native arm64/metal macport. I play stray on M1mini 8GB in 1600x1000 on 30" AppleCinemaDisplay with "integreated" 80% and high textures. Looks fantastic, runs fantastic.
Interesting take and video, great as always Andrew
Memory overhead comparison showed is interesting too
4:31 In that SnowRunner game, not only it is running a lot faster (although the CrossOver one looked perfectly playable already) but the memory usage on the macOS native version is less than half, 40% of the RAM needed 😮
Great performance boost in Stray! I was seeing about 40 fps using Whisky on the rooftops sections at 1728 x 1117 but native that's now 100+ fps! In fact, even at 3456 x 2234 with graphics on 'high', Stray runs at 30 fps.
Was msync used in all crossover tests? it really makes a big diff on the cpu side of translation layer. it won't be native performance but the gap should be closer. My M3 Max tests compared to M1 max also narrows it further cause I think having more cpu power helps power through wine, since translation layer is mostly held back by cpu bottlenecks (which again is why msync or esync it's weaker older brother, help so much and just raw processing power)
60 to 90 FPS (for example in Snowrunner) is a massive difference Andrew. So this is showing us just how much the translation layers nuke performance. It's a lot.
@Andytizer Can you provide video tutorial information for playing Star Wars Galactic Battleground on Mac M1? thanks.
1:01 - the number of Mac games is likely even smaller than what you show because that list almost certainly includes older 32-bit games that don't work on macOS Catalina and above and/or Apple Silicon hardware.
New to Mac gaming… Could I use Steam Link to play Mac App Store and Steam PC games from a Mac to an Apple TV?
Is it possible somehow configure shader cache size for DXMetal (GPTK)? (Like Nvidia cache size in windows)
Andrew perhaps you can post a video about installing games from the App Store using external ssd's if it is possible... thanks!
Can someone get the controller working for Spider-Man?
It won't work even if I enable and disable in Steam settings.
expecting Apple someday will release or extend Apple Arcade and engage game devs to develop games on macOS. no doubt it will be, just not expecting that soon but still
What about Microsoft flight simulator 2020? Is it playable on a m1, m2 or m3 Mac ?
Is there any news about UE5 support in Game Porting Toolkit? Most UE5 games are still a no-go on Crossover/GPT
Apple should expand Game Center to allow browsing and buying games directly. Something like a dedicated Steam for mac
You already have steam on Mac. It’s more about devs porting their AAA titles for 1% of the audience, which is not really convenient, for my regret
@@vadimvastels Steam is great for windows and Steam deck. Not so much for mac users
@@lost_valley totally agreed, but it’s not because of the steam itself, cause it is just the same steam. It’s more like a devs/publishers issue. For example, you have RE:Village for Mac but not in steam, only App Store version. And if I already got it in steam I can’t play it tho it has its own native port. So my decision is to ignore it or to pirate it. And this is the reason of a repeating circle no audience-no games-no audience-no games
Thank you.
Coming from a time when the only Mac games were Warcraft 3 and Photoshop, this such a huge improvement.
Photoshop is a game?😂
Although your points are mostly valid, there is this one things I'd like to mention.
M3 MAX options are currently super expensive, in an expense of 4000$ and above for a decent configuration, in which case it's a waste to spend that amount of money if they main goal is gaming.
Sure you can technically play SOME games on an lower end configuration like the M1, or M2 chips as well, but again, the performance there will be much worse, yet the price of the system will still remain high.
All i'm saying is that if your goal is primarily gaming, then there is no doubt you should NOT go with any of the M chips for the reasons described above, and in the video
-We(mac users) are mostly treated as a 2nd class citizens in terms of gaming.
Wait for m3 max Mac Studio next year, that will be around $2500 only few hundred more expensive than a pc gaming rig. Worth it vs getting another $1500-2000 pc box sitting on your desk just for gaming…for the casual gamers. For hardcore gamers there is no question rtx 4070/80/90 pc gaming is the only option
@@onlythebest3311 There are also those Intel and AMD APU's that are pretty small form factor and also pack quite a punch. Just because it's a PC it doesn't mean it has to be huge. Trying to objective here, not hating on either, I have them both, and I love them both.
@@Evil1nside if you getting those might as well just get the mac, they maybe efficient but not even close to the rtx in term of performance
I'm currently on a Macbook Pro M1. Do you think it's good enough to support all these gaming?
it depends if you have 16 or 8gigs of ram, you can probably play most of these games but you'll have to lower resolution and graphics
I am using cross over on my m3 max and when it works it is awesome as you say but you gotta admit that there are actually a lot of games which do not work at all but i am very excited what the future will bring :) thank you for the update videos on that topic
Curious, Is there a performance difference between the Mac store version of snowrunner and the Mac version now available via steam? Or is it literally the same thing just delivered 2 separate ways?
I think it should be the same
There is always a difference (because Steam uses tons of x86_64 services for itself and for interoperation with the game, also consuming lots of unified RAM) but its severity depends on the game and can be minor. Anyway, non-Steam versions run better, even on Windows.
The lack of updates to games is why many on Linux prefer to use Proton over native and given Linux PCs mainly uses x86 and Proton has a lot of development the difference between Proton and native Windows is very minor (at times might even be better with Proton).
I do wonder if the difference will be way lower on ARM Macs if the games were made for Windows ARM than Windows x86.
I'm looking forward to seeing more Mac ports, even from "older" games. No Man's Sky, despite its bugs, runs really well. It's proof that with some efforts from companies, more of us could enjoy gaming on a Mac. Now I'm wondering how it would look like to run a Mac ports of games such as Final Fantasy VII Remake or Horizon Zero Dawn and Forbidden West. :-p
I do think that all the major PC operating systemss (Windows Linux and macOS) should have a balanced amount of games with a few exclusives to each OS like it is with console gaming
The only thing keeping me on Windows is gaming, and even then I haven't played a game on my PC since Psychonauts 2 dropped in August 2021. Been getting _heavy_ use out of my PS5, Switch, OG Xbox and Wii U. Linux and MacOS are looking _incredibly_ attractive, especially since fucking Windows 11 never seems to understand that I want to _Shut Down_ when I press alt-f4 on my desktop and always tries to set _Switch User_ as a default.
I'm getting a Macbook Pro M3 through work, I'm excited to put that thing through it's paces.
so good 🌼😄
I've tested native version of Stray on my MacBook Pro 16" M1 Max (32 gb/32 gpu cores) and it gets 20 fps on 4K compared to 35-40 fps on RTX 3060 Mobile (Hp Omen 15), so disappointing actually because M1 Max costs double or even triple the price of RTX 3060. So basically it has performance level of RTX 3050. But anyway it's great to see it can still perform acceptable to run modern games
I dunno, I`ve heard so many times, including here, that mac gaming is now great, but it seems it`s only if you have M1 max or better. On my base M1 with 16 gb ram, nothing relatively new is playable. BG3 is 25-30 fps with atrocious graphics. And it`s a native game. Everything newer than that - doesn`t even run. Even Swich emulation has many limitations and far from perfect... So affordable macs is not great for gaming, sadly. Not today, not tomorrow.
Next year I will make a video about what can run well on the M1 Mac, it's still the GOAT!
@@Andytizer cool, looking forward for it!
Gaming is coming to Apple’s platforms and not for the reasons some think. But it’s happening, slowly for now but the pace will pick up
my m3 max 14C have a lot of issues on crossover.. Cybnerpunk is below 55 fps 1440 ... also graphs crash or black shadow error appear.. or is to dark the game. very disapoited .. by M3 max.. on My m2 max everything was working perfect
Turn off FSR to fix the black screen issue. Sadly running through a translation layer is the best that you can get right now on a Mac.
same issue with M3 max but I am surprised that on M2 Max it worked properly
I’m amazed that Crossover and GPTK are even able to get 10% of native performance, 50-70% is crazy. Mad respect to the developers.
Stray available in mac appstore 😮
Could you test (Rosetta) games with Low Power mode for performance and how much battery you would get? (or just what the total system draw is, you can kinda extrapolate from that)
Alternatively, you could run games at maybe Medium ~800p with a frame cap of 60 (or Vsync, but it would go to 120Hz unless you adjust it down)?
Or both. (and maybe a comparison between Pro and Max)
Just wondering how good gaming on battery is
I think soon mac support will be automatic part of unity and unreal, so the developers will need only compile and publish it to steam
That's not the only issue. Games need to be QA tested on every platform. If the number of potential Mac buyers is too low to justify spending money on QA testing, the studio isn't gonna release a Mac version. And remember, the Mac is still 2 platforms: Intel and Apple Silicon, both of which would need to be tested.
@@kevinmckenna5682 "And remember, the Mac is still 2 platforms: Intel and Apple Silicon, both of which would need to be tested." You can publish games as Apple Silicon version only, which is exactly what most game developers are doing at the moment.
Still important to buy Mac versions when you can. I believe the first 2 hours of gameplay decide whether the money goes to “PC” or “Mac” on Steam.
Can you use cheat happens on crossovers?
Playing single player games only
“Only 20fps higher”
Lol
Crossover is smooth in operation, but is really problematic when modding
a game. I’ve used crossover and parallels and parallels is better at
Modding. I’m using a m3 iMac and gaming has been very positive. In a years time I expect them to be even better.
This also does not work with anti-cheat systems.
Mac gaming will make the now-unpopular Mac mini an absolute staple. It’s a 20x20cm fanless minimalist box that thanks to Apple Silicon can play anything. Also, it will be somewhat standardised. So developing for it will at one point be less of a pain in the ass. There’s one architecture, one chip family, one OS, and that’s it.
Oh and it’s 700 bucks.
Only 20 FPS more lol? Thats pretty significant.
Fort Solis is a hot mess on M2 Max natively. But in Crossover it runs flawlessly. Your previous videos convinced me to give them a go and I’m not looking back. Native Mac gaming is a let down.
Interesting. So there's hope for things getting better in the next years. Because I'm thinking about buying a Mac Mini, but also don't wanna abandon my extensive Steam library on my (aging) PC. ✌
Meanwhile: find me on the couch while gaming on my Playstation. Yeah yeah, "first world problems" at its best... 😁😜
If apple release handheld device like asus rog aly with M3 chip….
It will cost $1000
I don't really see it being a good platform - right now there are almost no AAA / popular games for the macOS and I don't really see Apple installing linux like steamdeck or even windows. This would be a powerful device with no games to play on it - most likely a waste of money.
@@krystiano.610well you’re most likely right. However now that apple is working with codeweavers one can hope Apple decides to either buy them or heavily invest into the project.
@@krystiano.610Theres tons of AAA games available for Mac and only more are coming. Plus all the indie games available
@@dark_modenah the base M chip can be found in the 600$ mac mini and iPad Air. There’s nothing about an M chip that guarantees 1000$ price point
Crossover will add to total perceived input lag, so if you care/play competitive games, crossover is a NO-GO
GTA VI was the biggest game trailer of the year and Apple wasn't involved in any shape or form. That's the problem. Apple is not pushing the envelope with regards to AAA gaming on Mac. MacBook users will be forced to buy PC laptops when GTA VI (hopefully) releases for the PC in 2027?
This is a special case though. The pc version wasn’t even announced and probably won’t be until after the console release. Do you really think they’d announce a Mac version before a pc version, even if there were plans for a port?
I was somewhat surprised at the RAM usage differences between native and crossover. Often 2-3x less RAM needed with the native version. This might not be super-important for some machines, but there are a ton of 8GB computers out there where 2.5GB is doable, but 7.5GB is not.
“Only 20 FPS”. PC Gamers have been upgrading their computers for less…
A MBP M3 max for 4900USD will suddenly be pretty attractive if you can run 99% of all games with same performance as WinPC.
Which will never happen, maybe around the M7. Also since this is all pretty much proton-esque based, compatibility is a shot in the dark for some games.
Probably the most clickbait video Andrew has ever made. A translation layer will never match a native port for performance, what sort of question is that?
…did you not read the title? When did he ever say that?
The best solution for Mac Gaming is not Crossover or Parallels or waiting for some Apple promise. It's GeforceNOW Game Streaming. I play every game from my existing Steam or Epic library on Macbook Pro M1 at highest settings. The fans don't even kick in. It costs 10 bucks a months. For this price i save on expensive gaming hardware and energy costs.
I feel this is a really disingenuous video designed to make Crossover look way better than it is in comparison to native ports. You keep on saying it’s “just” a 20fps difference even if the crossover game is around 45fps and the native version is above 70. That’s a way bigger percentage difference than when a game runs at 100 or 120fps.
mac for games? 😂 bf 2042 ? battlebit ? call of duty ? pubg ? forza horizon 5 ? 😂😂😂
Sounds just like a Blackberry user just as the iPhone was coming out.
@@tonyburzio4107 Unlike the phone market at the time, the PC gaming market is extremely mature at this point, with decades of precedence making it difficult for an emerging competitor to set up shop.
You are talking about the biggest company in the world. I really haven’t seen Apple hugely fail in an endeavour they have tried. If they want to get into gaming they will be successful. The key here being if they really want to.
@@patrickmc8779 if they didn't want to, they wouldn't have released GPTK
@@jarkevithwlad GPTK is basically a wrapped open source code so it is not real effort from their part. What I want to see is them officially talking to developers and convince them of porting more games to macos.
Thank you for explaining how CrossOver allows Mac users to run Windows apps and games on Apple Silicon! 😮 It literally opened up a new world for me as I am now able to play the Windows-only Cyberpunk 2077 on my M2 in high resolution and 4K. Note that I was not a gamer before trying CrossOver (except for MYST and Firmament puzzle games for Mac). Thank you! 🙏 CrossOver is magic! ✨