These 11 SNES Games are Now Co-op
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- These 11 Super Nintendo Games are Now Co-op
Final Fight
Secret of Evermore
Seiken Densetsu 3
Mario RPG
Chrono Trigger
Donkey Kong Country
Lost Vikings 2
Super Metroid
A Link to the Past
Super Mario World
Star Fox
Music By @Chillpeach
Visit our website classicco-op.com
Contact us at classic.cooperative@gmail.com
Community: WE NEED MORE COOP GAMES
Devs: No
Community: Fine, we will do it ourselves
Exactly 😂
Devs: We'll sue you!😂
NucleusCoop for SNES has entered the chat.
seeing DKC with Diddy free roaming reminds me of Sonic and Tails
SD3 was also officially released a few years ago in the west as Trials of Mana.
Too bad it doesn’t have 3 player haha
1:13 RIP co-op mana series lol. Wonder if PC modders will add that to trials/visions. A shame secret of evermore wasn't in collection of mana. I believe there is a 3 player hack for yeah 2:10.
3:34 snes final fantasy games were oddly enough like that.
7:52 of course doom chip 😂
So crazy the mana series ditched the co-op. That’s its defining characteristic!
@ClassicCo-op I agree. I'm just glad trinity trigger is a spiritual successor and plays better when swapping out the English dub like dq treasures. Similarly, dqm the dark prince took out online multiplayer outside the switch version and tales of arise scrapped multiplayer.
You'll get less and like it 🤣 before the ps5 pro made it cool (which people are already liquidating ps5 and Sony replies by adaptive charge update excluding original model).
Was always disappointed in the 'Donkey Kong Country' games not having simultaneous co-op. Felt like it could have been very easily implemented given the two characters already on the screen.
I know! Love the series, but that was a weird choice.
There were probably issues with keeping the characters together with one person tearing through the level as well as traveling several screens from a barrel blast.
Having come from Donkey Kong Country Returns I was disappointed that the co-op in the original DKC games was just the typical "pass the controller" kind of two-player mode.
Co-op platformers really do need to have different level designs to be enjoyed by two players simultaneously. Look at the difference between Mario Wonder and Mario World, or Tropical Freeze and DKC. Places where you need to jump off an enemy to reach are only accessible to one player without high levels of coordination between players. Just adding a multiplayer patch to these old single-player platformers is not going to be a great experience.
Battletoads is basicalls what DKC could have been with coop gameplay. And while it's fun, it's also really difficult because of the coop mode.
Back again with Mr. Co-Op today’s topic the SNES blessed to see and have all from 1980-Now what a life of gaming
Thanks for watching! Also, do you have an auto text thing happening every time you type “snes” 😅
@@ClassicCo-opI type snes/SNES like that sometimes just happens whether I do it or auto correct
@@mjdf122 I mean the part that says “blessed to see and have all from 1980-now”. That showed up in multiple comments after typing snes 🤷♂️
@@ClassicCo-opyes I type that also because I have seen and have all consoles from 1980-Now as well as tons of games such is life throughout the decades for me I’m just happy about it that’s all
I've been hoping somebody will ad co-op support to The Firemen for decades at this point. It's a fascinating little top-down shooter where the enemies are all different types of fire. Single-player only, but you permanently have an assistant character helping you fight fires. To me it always seemed like it was supposed to be a co-op game but for some reason it never happened. The sequel on PS1 does have simultaneous co-op, so at least there's that.
Yeah, it’s crazy that game doesn’t have co-op! Hopefully someone works on a hack. I really like the sequel!
I miss real couch co-op.
SoM started my ARPG & co-op love, too.
Yes Internet gives the option to play with gazillions of players, but you stay isolated...
I also dreamed of more 2-3 player games (akin to SoM) on SNES & more.
Agreed. I only play local co-op. Never got into online gaming. There’s still lots of great co-op indie games coming out. Did you ever play Trinity Trigger? It’s a 3 player arpg inspired by Secret of Mana. I’m enjoying it with my daughter and friend.
Are there any co-op modded games for the Genesis? That system had a lot of co-op arcade ports, that were only single player on the Genesis. Games like MERCS and Chiki Chiki Boys Etc.
The only co-op modded game I know of on the Genesis is a demo of Sonic 2 that came out last year where you can play through Emerald Hill, Chemical Plant, Hill Top, Mystic Cave and Hidden Palace in split-screen with player 1 as Sonic and player 2 as Tails. It features some custom music, color palettes and Tails' abilities from Sonic 3.
Yeah, I remember buying Chiki Chiki Boys on the Genesis expecting it to be co-op like the arcade version and being sorely disappointed. I definitely would love a co-op hack of it. It is a great game!
Yeah, the only other one I can think of is Sonic classic heroes. That one lets you play all three Genesis Sonic games in three player co-op with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles.
And thanks for stopping by! Been watching your videos for years!
Awesome video. The frame rate on that Star Fox game is absolute balls though lmao
Haha yes it is! Definitely would be worth trying with emulation improvements
@@ClassicCo-op The overclocking feature of emulation doesn't exactly help the framerate, only speeds everything up.
You get everything stuttering in fast forward.
I’ve been needing a reason to play Chrono Trigger again.
Same. Wish it had more than just co-op in battles, but still cool.
You missed F-Zero VS multiplayer, which only works online or multiple emulators in one system (and with homebrew hardware link cable I think). Super cool and super unknown.
That’s cool! I’ll have to try it.
@@ClassicCo-op It’s also compatible with hacks that add the satellaview tracks. Really gives it a new life!
Super nintendo couldn't handle too many sprites on screen cause the game would glitch or have slow down
True. But it’s impressive to see how some of these hacks perform.
In following that tradition, the Switch has problems with framerate as well! 🎉
Since the word is used so often: it's worth noting that the pronunciation is "SAY-ken densentsu", rather than "PSY-ken". "Se" in Japanese sounds roughly between "seh" and "say". "PSY-" would be "sai", rather than "sei".
Ohhh thanks for the clarification. Was never sure about that!
Ken densentsu. You did tell me to SAY that.
@@Kara_Kay_Eschel oh Kara, you're a jokester
Really hope Anarchy Reigns & God of War Ascension get Local fighting Hacks
That would be sweet!
It's very cool seeing how much can actually be added to these old SNES games by talented hackers. I just wish the community would finish and really polish up that Final Fight 2-player hack. Even just getting rid of the obvious display bugs would be a great start. When you see what Maxwel did with Final Fight 3 by optimizing the code and such, getting it running at a solid 60fps and reducing forced blank and so on, you realise that SNES Final Fight game could be sooo much better. Similarly the with Final Fight 2 hack that allows up to five enemies alongside the two players on-screen at the same time. Now, there's a lot of flicker with that many characters in a row, but it just shows how much more capable the SNES is than a lot of people would have everyone believe. Anyway, someone really needs to finish that Final Fight hack and then polish up the rest of the game as far as possible. I think there's a whole lot that could be improved there beyond just adding the two players and fixing some bugs. And one thing I would do right away is add full colour headshots into the HUD probably by using some spare sprites there if possible. It's the little things.
Great video! Local co-op games are always a lot of fun! You have to love the dedication of the hacking community to bring these to life on the SNES! I definitely plan to try some of these out. That Star Fox one is beyond impressive! I'm curious, if at some point, some team will be able to make a 4-player co-op mode for Star Fox 64?
Thanks for watching! I would love to see that too. The co-op Mario 64 hack is amazing. I’m sure it could be done!
SNES Final Fight 1 is single player only because development was rushed (it was a launch title for the Super Famicom) and it's was also a budget title.
The developers didn't have time to add all the stages, let alone 2 players.
Yeah, it sucks what developers had to go through to get a game out. But then we got final fight guy, and that was still single player. Do you know the reason for that?
@@ClassicCo-op Remember what Mr. Krabs said when the reporter asked what had inspired him to build a second Krusty Krab right next door to the original one?
Final Fight Guy is just a minor enhancement to the original game, just so they could earn more money.
Would be nice to have the name of the hack next to the game when u showcase it
No links to the project pages
They should all be on romhacking.net
The biggest constraint that led to cutting co-op features was probably budgeting time, since games were made by small teams with tight deadlines, but another issue was the SNES hardware. The NES's very low (2 bit) color depth on sprites and ability to flicker them to go over the sprite limit made it something of a powerhouse when it came to moving sprites around the screen without impacting the framerate; the SNES with it's 4 bit sprite color depth and different sprite construction method (one big sprite instead of a bunch of little ones put together) wasn't really able to meet the standards the NES set.
The SNES was far beyond the NES in basically every possible way. And the lack of co-op in some SNES games has literally zero correlation with what was going on with the NES and also nothing to do with the SNES' greatly increased colour capabilities either. Also, the SNES has that flicker capability too, which you can actually see being used in the Final Fight 2 hack that allows for two players and five enemies on-screen at once. It just flickers a lot--go figure--which probably explains why a lot of developers didn't use it on SNES, as sprite flicker wasn't as acceptable in the 16-bit era as it was on NES.
And regarding sprites, the NES can display 64 total on-screen and 8 sprites and 8 sprite tiles per scanline before flicker, whereas the SNES can display 128 total on-screen and 32 sprites and 34 sprite tiles per scanline before flicker. They ain't even in the same league. Also SNES sprites can be made up of bunch of smaller ones, with the smallest size to build from being 8x8 pixels, or larger ones up to 64x64 pixels in size that can also be used to make even bigger meta sprites, and it's just up to developers to decide what makes best sense in any given scenario.
There really are some bizarre narratives going around about SNES in recent times.😲
@@inceptional You're mistaken if you read my post as a like for like comparison of their feature sets. I'm not saying NES performance was superior in terms of raw output; I'm saying that if you had scenes from similar games with the same sprite density in proportion to the screen, the higher fidelity SNES sprites were more of a strain on framerate.
The color depth limit on NES sprites was in effect a forward-thinking sacrifice that mitigated unoptimized sprite usage's impact on performance, and flicker being less acceptable on SNES was a natural aesthetic consequence of higher color usage. The end result was more "slowdown" in SNES games (putting aside notorious NES exceptions like Contra Force).
Anyway, the practical example is right there in the video: beatemups as a genre were well within the theoretical sprite limits but they ran up against limitations on memory very quickly. SNES devs could work miracles with games featuring two really big sprites (SF Alpha 2) but porting even a facsimile of the era's custom-purpose 16 bit arcade beatemup cabs (such as Alien vs Predator) was near impossible. Of course, the NES was not good at beatemups either (and nearly incapable of 1v1 fighting) but the point is it was more adaptable and faster running the games of it's era, within pretty much the exact same screen resolution, because it was severely color-limited.
@@smoogy2164 I got that you weren't being literal direct, as that would be utterly absurd. But what I'm saying is the massive increase in power from NES to SNES, going to 16-bit, much faster CPU, much more efficient CPU, much increased WRAM, much increased VRAM, dedicated CGRAM, the ability to handle 128 sprites on-screen and 32/34 sprites per scanline vs 64 on-screen and 8 per scanline, etc, means that the direct comparison of putting a bunch of sprites on-screen on NES vs SNES will always favour the SNES. Even if you do something like double all the sprites on-screen on SNES or whatever, it still favours SNES pretty much across the board.
And the thing with NES sprites is you can only have 64 of them on-screen max, even if you use the 8x8 size, whereas the SNES could in principle have 128 64x64 sized sprites on-screen if it wanted to. The only issue would be the huge amount of flicker because you'd go waaay over the sprite and sprite tiles per scanline limits. But, technically, the system can process 128 individuals sprites on-screen regardless of the sprites sizes chosen from the available ones. There's a demo on my own RUclips channel showing exactly this happening, with 128 16x16 sprites on-screen at once, all moving around and interacting with each other in real-time, and all running at a rock solid 60fps.
The colours of the sprites are also handled by the dedicated CGRAM on SNES, which is what allows the SNES to dedicate 128 colours to sprites alone, chosen from a whopping 32,768 master palette, and it comes really at no extra cost to those on NES. So the SNES can still store the same 256 sprite tiles in VRAM as NES, despite them individually being four times more colourful than NES tiles and the overall colour count available for SNES sprites being like ten times more.
The last thing with "sprites" is that the SNES also has the ability to use up to four full background layers, and if desired it could use a single one of those for the background and dedicate the others to having three literally full-screen-sized "sprites" if someone really wanted to do that, with zero flicker caused by those "sprites" too. And that's on top of the 128 regular sprites.
And you're confused about what caused the slowdown in most SNES games, as it was not the sprites but the use of SlowROM rather than FastROM in most games that suffered slowdown, as well as badly optimized code. And the difference between SlowROM and FastROM is around 30% more CPU speed going from the former to the latter.
If you use the example of beat 'em ups and compare any beat 'em up on NES to the code optimized version of Final Fight 3 on SNES that was recently released by Maxwel Olinda, you can see the SNES has no problem upping the anti from NES again in every conceivable way, including running full beat 'em ups at a steady 60fps there too. Also, Turtles in Time on SNES is a great example without additional tweaking, as that runs great. And I have counted myself times where the game displays two players and nine enemies on-screen at the same time. There's also a hack of Final Fight 2 that allows for two players and five enemies on-screen at once too, large ones. And, although it starts to flicker a lot with that many large characters in a row at once, the SNES is still up to the task. So it's still more than capable of great beat 'em ups.
Now, there are absolutely some amazing arcade games that the SNES couldn't replicate perfectly, but that's not a prerequisite for being able to handle awesome home console games. And it can still certainly get arcade ports that most people would be more than satisfied with if handled properly. Look at the brilliant port of Parodius Da! for example, which is a top 3 16-bit generation shmup on any platform imo. And the aforementioned Turtles in Time is brilliant on SNES, arguably the best beat 'em up of the generation alongside Streets of Rage 2. And arcade games like U.N. Squadron, Sunset Riders, King of the Monsters, Killer Instinct, On the Ball, Super Smash TV, while obviously not arcade perfect in many ways--although actually better than the arcade versions in some ways too--are all great on SNES. Also, I'll just point out that almost all those games are also running on SlowROM once again, so any minor slowdown you might see there can be eliminated via nothing more than going to FastROM and some code optimization if necessary. Although they're all still absolutely great already exactly as is regardless.
And, if you look at some fast running and intense action games on SNES, even ones that are all running on stock hardware and in SlowROM at only 70% of the system's full CPU speed, titles like Super Smash TV, Wild Guns, Super Turrican, F-Zero, Rendering Ranger R2, etc, you can see very clearly that SNES's power and speed is in no doubt when actually used correctly. And, again, just in case it slipped memory from the start of this paragraph to here, those games are still all running on stock hardware only in SlowROM at 70% of the SNES' full CPU speed. And all those games are running at a solid 60fps despite all the action and lovely colours and parallax background layers and transparency and lots of sprites, etc.
I would recommend having a second look at those games if you're not convinced of that or have maybe just forgotten the specifics. And definitely make sure to look at Super Smash TV running in turbo mode and Super Aleste on the highest difficulty setting where you get the fastest gameplay and most stuff on-screen too.
Also, I'll just add that although the standard SNES resolution is the same a NES, it does in fact have a 512x448i resolution mode that is entirely useable in-game during intense full-screen full-colour full-60fps action too, which has been perfectly demonstrated in recent times by Kulor in his upcoming shump Rex Nobilis. His game runs in FastROM as far as I'm aware.
I'd recommend checking out his game too. You'll probably need to look around to find the random short clips of it in action. Again, it's called Rex Nobilis, and it's an upcoming vertical shmup for SNES.
There are a lot of false narratives going on around the SNES right now, many of them spread by trolls and liars and bad actors, but the SNES is far more capable than apparently some people seem to understand these days. And it's more than up to the task of running awesome intense games with no slowdown, even running on stock hardware, and--even though it really shouldn't be used in modern times imo--even while still running just in SlowROM too. Turn on FastROM mode and put a good developer and programmer on the case, and SNES is capable of some amazing 16-bit games.
I'll just add that I'm currently collaborating on a SNES shmup game that might even show much of this stuff off pretty convincingly. You can see a very early clip of it in action on Maxwel Olinda's Twitter channel. So keep your peepers open for more on that in the near future.
@@inceptional Thanks for the detailed reply. I don't mean to give credence to any misconceptions about the SNES, but you're speaking with the benefit of hindsight. I don't doubt the system had latent potential that has since been solved for. I want to stress that I was replying to the video author's general question of why features didn't make the cut, so I'm accounting not just for system knowledge at the time, but also the changing genre demands that were a form change thanks to the additional functionality over the NES.
I'm glad you brought up Turtles in Time because that was the only real "cross gen" example that came to mind along with Turtles II: The Arcade Game. Pretty much ports originating from one game engine. No question both are excellent ports. Given the vast superiority of SNES output, how come there is so much parity in the gameplay limits relative to the arcade versions? They had the NES doing backflips (with help from hardware on the cart obviously) to run a game that originally had 16 color graphics. The assets in Turtles in Time are native color depth (and resolution IIRC) but you don't get giant mobs of enemies or much above and beyond the arcade. (If you come back with detailed stats on the char limits in those games that aren't as discrepant as I remember I promise I'll bow out here)
All I really wanted to get at it here is that even given the steps forward in speed and features the SNES got, a lot of those gains were eaten up by a literal exponential increase in sprite colors relative to the severe restrictions of the NES. Even though screen resolution barely changed, the SNES in its day was rarely getting ports of 32 bit developed games like the NES was getting 16 bit developed games, and devs proved to struggle a lot even with 16 bit sprite intensive games that were contemporary to the console.
@@smoogy2164 Well, like I said regarding Turtles in Time on SNES, there's times where I have personally counted two players and nine enemies on-screen at once. All with no slowdown at all, despite the game running in SlowROM at 70% of the full CPU speed, and all with every extra graphical effect and such that comes with the SNES over the NES.
On NES, I'm not sure there's ever more than the two players and three enemies max.
So the difference between going from the NES to SNES there is very clear, in that SNES ups every single aspect of the game on a technical and graphical and sprite and performance and audio and control level, etc, and with no single area where the NES can even match never mind better it.
There's also graphical tricks going on throughout the game like proper multi-coloured transparency, multi-layered parallax with three fully overlapping background layers, full-res full-screen 60fps Mode 7 background scaling and rotation (and actually even multiple separate rotating and scaling characters on the same screen at times), 8-channel PCM sampled stereo audio, etc, many of which weren't seen or heard as such on any other home consoles of the time, which in some ways is arguably getting closer to 32-bit in that regard.
And, to be fair to SNES, none of the consoles of that era were getting ports of 32-bit games. I mean, I don't recall any examples. Maybe there were literally one or two cases of this happening possibly. But it just wasn't a thing I remember going on then.
As far as you could ask from a port of the game on a 16-bit console at the time, the SNES totally delivered.
And, interestingly, I know the SNES can do even more, as a rom hack already exists that adds even more enemies on-screen, albeit at the cost of more noticeable flicker at times like you might see on a particularly flicker heavy NES game. Point being, you can get a lot of characters on-screen there for sure, and far beyond anything possible on NES.
I'll also just reiterate again that none of the things you are talking about are caused by the SNES' greatly increased colours. The dedicated CGRAM basically deals with those extra colours. So, other than taking up more memory overall, the SNES basically gets all those lovely colours for free.
Now, if you're thinking about things like a low number of enemies on-creen or slowdown or whatever, those are all related to other things like the SNES' sprites per scanline limit and running in SlowROM rather than FastROM and badly optimized code and so on. And those can generally all be overcome if a developer actually knows how to handle the SNES properly.
I understand if your focus is on the fact many of the games at the time did suffer from these things and you're trying to give reasons why, especially in the context of addressing the original author's question. But we're in 2024 now, so we all now know better about that kind of stuff and why it happened and how it could have been avoided in many cases. And I think it's okay to discuss these points from that modern and more informed perspective.
The real answer as to why more SNES games didn't have proper multiplayer is largely budget and time constraints (like you said), and largely because many developers were stuck with using SlowROM rather than FastROM, and largely just badly optimized code and/or just not taking full advantage of the system, and partly the inherent capabilities and limitations of the system.
Ultimately though, as this video clearly shows, many more SNES games absolutely could have had multiplayer. And it's very interesting to see some hackers adding that into a bunch of these games now. It's really pretty cool.
So, hopefully that all serves the purpose intended here.
Interesting!
Do they have a hack for Gradius 3?
Why does everyone act like the Sega CD version of Final Fight is great? It is painfully slow. It's like it can't process multiple animations and collisions simultaneously. If I swing a pipe, not only is the animation for the pipe behind the animation of my arm, but the collisions of each character struck happen one after the other instead of simultaneously. Juggling several enemies with a flurry of punches takes forever!
I can see that. For me, the main advantage was the 2 player co-op and the cd audio. Playing final fight single player is just wrong 🤣
@@ClassicCo-op While Final Fight is at its' best in 2-player mode I love playing through it single player too. Final Fight One is always in my DS's Game Boy Advance slot.😃
Because the Sega CD version is honestly the best version out of all then maybe the arcade version holds up against it blessed to see and have all from 1980-Now
@@mjdf122 The arcade and Gameboy Advance versions are definitely better than the Sega CD version. That is not up for debate.🤣
By the time the Sega CD version had come about most had already moved onto Final Fight 2 and although I don't think the game is as good as the original due to some bad design decisions Final Fight 3 definitely improved on the formula greatly.
Five arwings in Star Fox? Who's the fifth pilot?
the girl reading this
Where is everyone been getting their rom hacks now?
I think you can still download from romhacking.net but they’re just not adding new downloads
Links to the hacks? your website comes up as spam
They’re all on romhacking.net my website is just down because I didn’t pay the bill 😅
no links to the hacks?
Most are on romhacking.net
If you are dealing with roms, why not just play the arcade version of Final Fight? There is even a hacked version that is 3 players. Hacking the SNES to be 2 players is nice as a look what I just did but it's still the worst version of the game so who cares? The hack that allows more enemies on-screen at once in Final Fight 2 has way more value. Also, why are you questioning why the devs didn't include 2 player? You make it sound like they simply chose to make it 1 player only like it was a design decision. Use your head. Don't you think they would included 2 players if they could? It was an early era SNES game and those carts were small. It wasn't possible until later.
The video was about Super Nintendo. I’m not saying it’s the best way to play Final Fight, but it’s cool that it exists. I’m aware that the game was an early snes release, and the developers were rushed to get it out. All I’m saying is, co-op gameplay is a defining part of the game. I’m glad it’s available in another version now.
😮😮😮
😆
I have never clicked a video faster.
Yes! 🙌🏻
Trials of Mana was officially localized, you can stop calling it Seiken Densetstu 3 already.
The original game was not called Trials of Mana though…
It will always be called SD3 blessed to see and have all from 1980-Now trails of mana isn’t even the translation for SD3 you will sound silly to the older generations but we’ll let you do you