Human sexual desire: Is monogamy natural? | Esther Perel, Chris Ryan & more | Big Think
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- Опубликовано: 6 дек 2020
- Human sexual desire: Is monogamy natural?
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Depending on who you ask, monogamy is either essential to a successful marriage or it is unrealistic and sets couples up for failure.
In this video, biological anthropologist Helen Fisher, psychologist Chris Ryan, former Ashley Madison CEO Noel Biderman, and psychotherapist Esther Perel discuss the science and culture of monogamy, the role it plays in making or breaking relationships, and whether or not humans evolved to have one partner at a time.
"The bottom line is, for millions of years, there were some reproductive payoffs not only to forming a pair bond but also to adultery," says Fisher, "leaving each one of us with a tremendous drive to fall in love and pair up, but also some susceptibility to cheating on the side."
Read Helen Fisher's latest book "Anatomy of Love: A Natural History of Mating, Marriage, and Why We Stray" at amzn.to/2VGpJ3W
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TRANSCRIPT:
HELEN FISHER: Monogamy is natural. Adultery is natural too. Neither are part of the supernatural. But I don't think people really understand monogamy. Mono means one, and gamy means spouse, one spouse. Polygyny, poly means many, gyny means women, many women. We are an animal that forms pair bonds. We are basically mono-gamous, monogamous. We're also adulterous, I think we've evolved what I call a dual human reproductive strategy, and we tend to be an animal that, a creature that forms a pair bond for a period of time, breaks that pair bond and forms a new pair bond. Serial monogamy and clandestine adultery. I think we've evolved these three distinctly different brain systems for mating and reproduction: sex drive, feelings of intense romantic love, and feelings of deep attachment. They're often connected to each other. You can fall in love with somebody, drives up the dopamine system, triggers the testosterone system and all of a sudden they're the sexiest person in the whole world. But they're not always well-connected, you can lie in bed at night and feel deep attachment for one person, and then swing wildly into feelings of intense romantic love for somebody else, and then swing wildly into feeling the sex drive for somebody who you've barely ever met. Which made me wonder whether millions of years ago there was something adaptive about having a partnership with one person and raising your babies and having extra relationships with other people. And it's actually relatively easy to explain-dial back a billion years, you got a man who has got a wife, a partnership and two children, and he occasionally goes over the hill and sleeps with another woman and has two children, extra children with her. He's doubled the amount of DNA he has spread into the next generation. Those children will live and pass on whatever it is in him, some of the genetics, some of the brain circuitry to be predisposed to adultery. But why would a woman be adulterous? A lot of people think that they're not as adulterous, but every time there's a man sleeping around, he's generally sleeping around with a woman, so you got to explain women too. What would a woman have gotten if she's had a partner a million years ago and two children, she slips over the hill and has sex with another man. Well, she'll get extra goods and resources, extra meat, extra protection. If her husband gets injured and dies, one of these extra lovers might come in and help her with her children, even think some of those children are his. It's an insurance policy, and she may even have an extra child and create more genetic variety in her lineage. So the bottom line is for millions of years, there were some reproductive payoffs, not only to forming a pair bond, but also to adultery, leaving each one of us with a tremendous drive to fall in love and pair up, but also some susceptibility to cheating on the side.
CHRISTOPHER RYAN: We are designed by evolution to be titillated by erotic novelty, males and females. Given that evolutionary design, it's completely predictable that 10 years of the same thing, whether it's the same music or the same food or the same sex partner, is going to lead to resentment, discomfort, whatever. It's going to lead to a diminishment of passion, certainly. So we start with that, and then we add to that, the notion that we're taught that that shouldn't happen, that if it does happen, there's something wrong with you or something wrong with your relationship. And so people aren't expecting that to happen. And so they interpret that diminishment of passion as a failure. It's not your fault, it's not your partner's fault, it's the...
Read the full transcript at bigthink.com/videos/is-monoga...
What do you think? Is monogamy natural?
No
What does it matter what i think. My views or opinions have no sway over existance. The physical universe does not change or care about what I think.
(In short I think it is the natural human state to be monogamous)
What is natural is pretty errelevant. it may have been natural at some point in our biological and or cultural evolution. same was living in a cave ws, or rediculously high infact mortality. but that natural state may have no relevence here and now.
The biological evidence would speak for monogamy.
Though i dont know if its life long. there ae hormons released during sex to encourage monogomous bindings, and men in a long trm relatinships testosterone levels drip further encouraging monogamy. plus jealousy is a real thing, just take a toy away from a toddler. and then the many idea and opinions voiced in this video.
an interesting point made was the corrilation or desease and cultural security offered to single parentds in our modern society. without these poly was a fairly risky behavior.
while it would seem to be our natural behavior, there is always the nature vs nurture argument to consider.
and like meat eaters vs vegitarians. vegi isnt our natural. but a privalege we can afford to better serve our cultural needs, the respect for the natural world.
Poly arguments seem to often apply the same rational as people who believe star signs. As a soft of justification for how they are. yet glossing over that idea iver being a conscious being which can choice their actions. l
@@Pssst.ByTheWay Ironically, I think that monogamy church members apply the exact same justifications and bad ideas to support their view that somehow in world where no one was telling humans what to do, they chose to be monogamous, despite all of the desire to be with others.
@@Winterascent i am not a proponent of poly. but also repect indevidual freedom, in the context that it only affects you and a consentual partner , thus there isnt a basis to find or call poly bad. and i never have.
the question was, Do i THINK its natural. what i think is erelevant in the face of scientific evidence. And then i specifically argued against blindly following ones "natural". being a sentient conscious creature i very much say, nature vs nurture is scientifically true and valid. just coz its natural isnt a reason for or against anything,. natural isnt by default good. like astrology , im not for it being used as an inescape fundamental truth and base which apon all character and thought are derived from, and thus in escapably defining our every more.
we are cognitively privalaged enough to deliberate, and choose.
so do i think mono is natural yes. do i think its best, what your rational goal?. do i think its black and white, or a normal distribution, mono vs poly. as most thing biological. yes probably. is natural defacto good. no. should one also just be your initial birth state. mono astro etc, no. we go to school coz we want to better nd evolve. mono vs poly vs any trait included. what is better is for you. am i against poly no. am i for poly no. am i personaly for mono, yes. do i accept other re different, yes. is mono more prevalent, probably. can they coexist , yes.
one person should be free to, with out persecution or penalisation. but relationships are ALWAYS 2 or more, its a matter of consensus of the parties.
What unclear question! What is meant by "natural"? Is murder "natural"? Is the human tendency to develop cultural norms and customs "natural"?
Sounds like a conversation to have before starting a relationship
@jriden 2:15
@jriden because youre building a "bond" under certain conditions. Just "Break up" instead of breaking your spouse's heart and the conditions you two established if needed.
Use any agreement under the "why? Feelings change" notion besides sex/spouse and you'll get the correct answer...
You missed the whole point of the video. Do you think everyone goes into a relationship thinking they're gonna cheat?
@@MultiMillyonits a choice just like the one made to be in a relationship. If you change your mind "cheat" "behind" your spouse, why pretend its expected? Its crazy to imagine "forcing" someones heartbreak in a relationship over breaking that bond YOU created JUST to sleep around. Hence a break up/breaking the terms of the agreed upon relationship
@@DaGreatHokaga nobody said it's expected. Again. You're missing the entire point of the video.
“The more parts of yourself you can bring into a relationship, the less likely you may then be to go looking for the lost parts elsewhere.” What a relevant knowledge 💣
I didn't understand her
@@samnooh7742it means got to bring everything in your relationship even your filthiest things you do, don't hide it from you partner
The problem is financially does the women have enough money to have her own household.
The second problem is a monogamous society, everybody loses their friends, their family and lovers to monogamy. So two people well have to pledge to not ever be Monogamous other wise if one breaks that deal then you could lose them to Monogamy.
If you decide to become monogamous you also break other people hearts unnecessarily because you decided you wanted one best friend aka girlfriend/ boyfriend instead of 2 or 3 best friends aka boyfriends /girl friends
Let's say I am a guy and I have female best friends (who are actually sexual relationships) and all of them have a house hold to live in that's paid off so their financially stable, then let's say both people pledge they never want to be Monogamous ever.
Now the relationship is simple, you are friends who live apart but are very close. You buy each other birthday presents, your there for each other in times of need. The man peforms his manly duties around her house and the women performs her female duties at his house
The communication is like friends, sometimes you talk alot, sometimes you don't, sometimes one friend moves to another country, sometimes one friend starts hanging out with new people and disappears for abit. But just like best friends do, your always still friends, you never have to worry about losing your friend to Monogamy because your both best friends for life who don't want to be Monogamous. So now other people are not a threat. You may have many friends (sexual not close relationships) and only 1 best friend (long term sexual relationship) You may be very social and have 2 or 3 best friends aka girl friends/ boy friends.
Also like a good best friendship, you hang out alot for periods of time and sometimes your both busy. This called pairing and bonding, you spend excessive time in ideal situations for eg: the weekend, road trip, event, party, holiday. Then when times are not ideal like busy working, going through a tough time, family issues and just like best friends you may say your busy but talk over the phone or text, you may finally catch up with them when your in a good mood but still may talk about what your going through while the other best friend (long term sexual best friend) helps you through your issues.
This way just like a best friendship spending time together when it is more of a ideal situation allows you both to bond closely together and taking time apart when things are tough or your tired or sick etc allows space to avoid conflict. This is also what all monogamous relationships lack due to each other wanting to save money on a house and not wanting to lose the other partner to monogamy.
Some best friends well stay friends for life, and some don't
@@Ordo.Corinthivm It's not only about filthy sexual kinks or desires. But even your intellectual side, ideas, thoughts, dreams and interests. If, for example, you can't share your interests or hobbies/passions with your spouse, you are more likely to develop a bond with another with whom you enjoy this or that part of yourself that has been kept out of your house(hold) or marriage.
Time stamp?
My wife’s boyfriend showed me this video
Please tell me this is a joke
@@Sneha-fh3uh it is
Hopefully.......
Lololol
No cap 🧢????
LMFAO 🤣💀
The problem with infidelity is always "dishonesty". You can choose to have more than one partner, but to not reveal that to your partner is the problem.
In fact, if you do not want to be in monogamous relationship, the solution is simple: don't be in one. Don't commit to be in a monogamous relationship. Be honest BEFORE the start of the relationship. It's not rocket science, it's fairly simple conversation.
yep yep ! b/c there are a number of women willing to be w/ a polyamorous man when he's honest about it from the jump (& those same women would be/have been upset at even the thought of their man being w/ another woman if her understanding w/ that man was she had him to herself)
I think honesty is way to overrated nowadays. If you would be really honest, I mean that REALLY HONEST saying everything loudly what you think, will only make up problems. Especially because people nowadays tend to make problems out of fckn everything.
For myself I think when I know that someone would react unfair to the truth, then it may be better to just dont say the truth. You should not have to be honest to someone who was dishonest first by beeing dishonest to the princip of truth itself. For example its totally obvious that sex and love are two different things, but when someone dont respects this, why should I have to respect him? I am only honest in a way that is beeing honest in just everything this person is also honest about, with the rule that I am talking about the "grounding princips" first. Everything else just gave me problems and I dont have to accept this problems.
If someone believes in monogamy, what it total bs I would not even define having sex with another women as cheating, because this person was the first one to cheat, because he/she dont even gave a sht about learning what make the partner really happy. He/she just wanted to have something like it's owned.
I think both, monogamy and polygamy is wrong. I prefer something like "love one women (at a time) and f everyone you wanna". This is - in my opinion - what is programmed in our minds by evolution. And I dont respect anyone who or anything that goes against our own evolution. Monygamists get the "and f everyone you wanna" part wrong, polygamists the "love only one women (at a time)" part wrong.
If it were that simple.
My wife and I are in a monogamous relationship, we are happy with that.
In theory.
In reality, she was brought up to think sex is dirty, and a low level need, (not in a good way).
I feel otherwise.
Problem is, finding deep connection, and fun, with someone else.
Is, it’s someone else.
@@H.A.Kingdom So youre saying that I have to respect people who dont respect me? I have to respect people who hurt me? I have to get hurt?
You’ve never fallen in love with someone outside a relationship where you have kids and joint finances and realize your whole life collapses. I did. And yes, I did leave but please….
Everything makes sense when we are referred to as animals
But there are species of animals which are monogamous. Eagles for example.
I agree. It’s a statement that’s so obvious, but it seems humans don’t like to think of themselves as animals that still have many primal desires most of the time
We are not animals.
We are not a cosmic accident in a meaningless Universe.
We did not evolve.
Earth is special.
@@scientistsbaffled5730 [citation needed]
@@pantherace1000 [the truth]
Honestly, I don't care if monogamy is natural or not. I'm a monogamous person and that's what I'm more comfortable with, but that's just me. I respect other people who are different.
This is the big misconception: That our 'free world' is so hyper-super-duper-free that
EVERYTHING is just 'taste and opinion' and yxou should respect other people's ideas
no matter what.
This no matter what is naive and ridiculous though.
You make or female or some other gender ?
Well, that's you who wants to be stuck with a headache for the rest. Because I hate to break it to you but there's no true benefit in being in a relationship. Men are consistently more likely to die being in a relationship than being single due to the stress that goes through with dealing with the hardships of it. But, hey I can't tell you what to do. I just wanted to state some facts for you before making that decision.
@@rheem5794 I respect your view, opinion and your lifestyle. But keep in mind that everyone has a different personality. For example people are introverts, some are extroverts. Respect that if you also wanna be respected. Having just 2 dates with different women within a week is just overcharging for me, while a lot of people don't have a problem with it. As I said, everyone is different.
@@dannychane That's why I said I can't tell you how to live. I just wanted to point out the drawbacks of being in a monogamous relationship. But, go ahead and live how you want.
Polyamory would mostly only work for women and very attractive men. I've read too many reddit posts of men who wanted to open up their relationship only to find that it's much easier for their female partners and she's the only one having fun 😂😂😂
I think the two demographics who benefit the most from polyamory are straight women and gay men.
because men let their self get floppy and pathetic. Not true if you lift and take care of yourself.
Let's just say - it will for sure not work if you start comparing and competing, thinking it "should be" more or less equal. But I know lots of people who are fine with uneven and then it can still be an improvement of life for everyone involved 🥰
@@emmstill Trust me most men want LOTS of sex but can't get any so this will most definitely not work. Domestic abuse will skyrocket!
Humans are still emotional beings and jealousy is an emotion...
That depends on the person, not the gender.
Internet is not natural. Everybody out! Now!
It's convenient and exciting so its cheating for ppl
Being naked is technically natural but we wear clothes.
Because it's cold. In Africa we decorated our bodies but didn't wear clothes
very true. why regress to a baser driver from our animals times if there is a another (maybe better way) . people have onscious thought and choice. its natural to poop in the woods , to live in caves. we choose to do it better. the other always exists, but that drive and strive for better. i think better is worth striving for, even if you misses the mark sometimes, always strive for better.
@@NozUrbina there are many reasons why we humans cover up, (Hot AND cold) if its scrotching hot in the desert, a kind of embarasment too- all humans even in the jungles cover thier loins, protection - like when scrapes etc (shoes for eg),. yeah but cold is definatly one. but thats wasnt the pointi think he was trying to make. its was an argument of animal nature vs civilised society.
Clothing is an environmental necessity, not a biological or evolutionary necessity. While the style of clothing is cultural.
Exactly, natural impulses and instincts aren't always compatible with civilization. Murder, for example, is natural behavior.
"extra meat" for sure
lol omg this made me laugh so hard. this comment is criminally underrated.
Lololol
😂😂😂
Lmao
Extra spear tip when she gets back tot he hut. One for the guy over the hill to.
I remember a study that showed the most common time for a marriage to break up was essentially when the youngest child is old enough to walk a distance. The "7 year itch," was basically "we can both be single now without it meaning the kids die, so we can both get new mates and increase genetic diversity."
So, theoretically, you could extend a marriage by birthing a kid every 6 years to reset the itch counter
😂 JK.
@@edwinpeterson9983Ngl you’ve a point
Not really. Me and my siblings all walked before the age of 1
@@reudigerhund8366 walk a distance, not unsteadily run off in a random direction, sorry.
I think it was about 4 in the study. Which is an age where you can talk to your kids and get them to walk with you (mostly).
Alimony
Before I met my husband for a while I was in an open relationship. I was pretty convinced I wasn't monogamous as a person, but having more than one partner was really stressing me out. It takes a lot of effort to love and desire more than one person at the same time and I'm horrible with multitasking and time management.
I've been married for 18 years now and love being monogamous. I'm too lazy for a polygamous lifestyle.
@@suvafiji724 in the society I was raised in we're not seeing anything shameful in what I wrote. Women are allowed to have sex when and with whom and the way they want in my culture. And men the same.
It's interesting how this thing about suppressing women works. You don't know me or my culture, but you feel free to tell me I should be ashamed for having had sex. 😂
in greece? are open relationships more normal? i am here but i have only seen monogamy
@@2000nc no I lived in Italy back then.
Poly isn’t necessarily loving 2 people. It’s more of having the one you love and trust and married but being free to experience the physical world.
The couple know that their spouse is their person, the only person they feel that way for and sex is just a fun physical activity that allows us to experience one another.
Sex doesn’t have to be a big deal, but society sure makes it one.
@@minato4203 sex is the literal deepest form of connection between any species. Plenty of animals mate for life, and for good reason. If men were wired to just find the next attractive mate while their pregnant girlfriend was unable to provide the sex, then he'd go chasing and she'd end up starving. It is not just a "physical activity" that should be seen as simple as eating or whatever. The reason why society makes sex a big deal is because promiscuity leads to cheating when in marriage, leading to the family suffering and the children suffering. Look up the drug abuse rates, fatherless children in prison, the abuse of step fathers or mothers to young children and so on. '
Honestly the root cause of modern society's deepest issues comes down to lack of familial love, value of their bodies and their children. (drug addiction, homelessness, child abuse, incarciration rates, broken homes, especailly poverty and the list goes on would drop drastically if we had a society and all individuals in society that respected marriage and family over all other pleasures.)
Look at the stats and you'll realize how right I am.
“Nothing has a stronger influence psychologically on their environment and especially on their children than the unlived life of the parent.”
― Carl Gustav Jung
For most of history humans had kids as teenagers and died by about 35. That quote doesnt make sense.
@@tubester4567 Lol that's not true. The infant mortality rate we used to deal with skews what life expectancy looked like. Plenty of people lived past 35 before modern times.
@@tubester4567 @KuyaBlade is being purposley obtuse...as you stated, he/she they, did not get the point of the video....dont waste your time debating, its a rabbit hole you wont get out of easily lol.
@@tubester4567 It makes sense if one is intelligent enough to understand what the statement means.
That hit hard...
“Extinction is the rule. Survival is the exception.”
― Carl Sagan
this made me go "hm."
You get the price for the most irrelevant comment 🎉
@@SargsyanTigran may be irrelevant but it is a great hell of a comment.
@@SargsyanTigran Irrelevant if you're the typical mediocre intellect that is fundamentally incapable of seeing anything but the surface, incapable of thinking through the deeper implications, incapable of grasping how all of the pieces of a whole fit together... if you're one of those people, then yeah, it's irrelevant to you.
I would actually argue against Carl Sagan.
Survival is almost an axiom of anything anywhere in the universe. Extinction is at a hazard's hands, whereas survival just happens. It comes down to the standing point in relation to what's surviving.
Different substances (e.g. organic) spend largely varying amounts of time successfully harnessing energy, converting it, and ensuring a future for their same substance.
Feel free to debate
I've been in a romantic relationship with my female partner for 7 years ( the 7 year itch ) and now, all of a sudden, she wants to be friends with me and see other people. For 7 years we were both on the same page of being monogamous and growing old together. We even bought our first house together as joint tenancy. We have no kids, just fur babies ,a dog and 2 cats. Im just trying to cope with it all. I feel betrayed in a way, I feel hurt, confused, a lot of emotions going on in my mind. It will be way easier for her to find the next romantic partner than it would be for me since im going on age 42 and been out of the dating game for some time now. Thinking of just letting everything go and head out to a Buddhist monastery Tibet or join a comumne in Hawaii. i dont know, just venting.. Its really tough mentally
Maybe she wants someone who can give her a child
@gamesacc2436 she never wanted kids, we both do not want kids in this crazy world. It's too difficult.
That's horrible I'm so sorry
@@miku6448 I appreciate it 🙏🏼
@oioioi223 I think societal norms and traditions are changing so fast in these times that it's hard for us men to keep up in a way. The traditional wife model that we've known when our parents got married is gone.. I'm all for woman empowerment and the movement but in a way it has backfired on couples where we can just get up and leave for any reason and have no guilt or shame or regrets...it's really weird
You will always find yourself longing for this calling it natural when you are the actor, but will call it deception and betrayal when your partner is doing the same.
Adultery is in our genes but jealousy and possessiveness over your partner is also natural.
Some of us are stronger and more gown up and mature than others. Some are still children and want to have their cake and eat it to.
This sort of jealousy and possessiveness are products of bad education. You can call it natural if its gone too deep in you.
But then again by strong conditioning you can call cannibalism natural.
Jealousy and possessiveness is natural based on what?? Monogamy is a culture. It is taught to us how we should be behave in our relationships. If we were taught to respect people's desires, feelings we wouldn't be this jealous
@@lucasfelipe024 Jealousy and possessiveness are derived from human biology, not any sort of culture. It is a natural human behavior
@@oyveygoy but monogamy takes these feelings and structure a whole relationship based on it. Monogamy IS a culture. It is a culture which cultivates these feelings based on the idea that just because it's normal we should accept it or even romantize it. But we should not. Especially when these feelings cause too much damage to relationships
Just because we are animals doesn't mean we should always follow those impulses
we dont. did you even watch the video ?
@@TactileTherapy the argument in the video seems to be that lifetime monogamy or fidelity is unnatural because it's challenging
@@JakeMoorehead You are right animals don't have choice to control their impulses but humans do hence we are most self aware species of all.
Exactly.
Humans can't control their impulse. Look around and notice it. It doesn't have to be sex impulse....
“Sex isn’t a big deal.”
It’s a VERY big deal if people are willing to step out on their spouse.
It’s a VERY big deal if you say we’re essentially missing out by not having sex with others.
It’s a VERY big deal if a child is the product of that sex.
It’s a VERY big deal if one contracts an STI.
Yeah some of these folks sound deluded
Bravo 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
It's a big deal to you. Everyone isn't the same. I do subscribe to the thought that sex is not a big deal because in the grand scheme of things it seems very minuscule especially when people eventually become old.
@@pernellcelestine4829 Std’s, sti’s and unwanted children with unwanted partners could change the human population’s numbers in significant ways depending on how it happens. I think it does affect the human population numbers in the grand scheme of things, it just doesn’t affect some people’s personal lives
@@Lv-sg4zp this is where trust comes into play. Just because someone may be in an open relationship that does not mean there aren't rules both ppl agreed upon such as no unwanted children or bringing home diseases. Everyone's situation is different just like with monogamy.
Seems like part of our nature is to be jealous and insecure as well.
We evolved from a selfish gene
well we are emotional beings
100% for sure natural human traits
To pass on genes, monogamy offers the quality of the offsprings in all aspects physical and mental over the quantity.
How...
I actually dont agree at all with what that phsycoligist said : sex is not that much big of a deal. Yes it is. Just because we should value emotional connection and a real friendship at the root of everything doesnt mean we should undermine the value of sex and sexual connection. Though sex with your partner you can deepen your ties and your intimacy that you basically dont do with ANYONE else, you are LITERALLY inside of your partner, i actually think that one of the roots of infidelity is that we havent been taught how to properly be sexual beings and HOW TO have real sex and love making. Because it is something sacred and beautifull.
Well said.
indeed. also I do not agree with promoting polygamous behavior because one point many people seem to fail to note, despite polygamy being "natural" is the fact that there is an abundance of STDs that can be contracted by engaging in polygamous behavior, regardless if protection is used or not. and the incredible burden STDs pose on human society financially and healthwise is outrageous. from a epidemiological standpoint, polygamous behavior is VERY unhealthy for society and should not be promoted. even if we are animals we have the capacity to control our behavior based on what is healthy, not necessarily what feels good...
@@athenachavez8 Humans will always be torn between novel excitement and predictable stability. I think we want both. It's a hard task to get both from a monogamous relationship. It's a noble purpose to persue ,just not at all natural. We are all promiscuous in a way. To paraphrase what Jesus said, "Those who have thought of committing adultery have already sinned."
Agreed but I think what that psychologist meant was that people make a bigger deal of it then it actually is. Sex helps people connect but it's not the only thing via which people connect. A relationship doesn't solely rely on sexual intimacy; there are plenty of other factors and people sometimes or many a times fail to consider them
Nothing is sacred
So millions of years ago we still had golddiggers.
Hunters and hoes...
The original professions.
I think back then they were called stone diggers
What video did you watch??? Fascinating conclusion you’ve made lol
Golddiggers are the rule, not the exception - but not in the bad way we think today. The female instinct is to search and find the kind of male that is strong, will protect and support her (today called wealth) and if possible, with good genetics which will guarantee that her offspring will have a better chance of survival. That´s the deal.
Its curiosity.
5:52
"Sex isn't really important". Yes, but why does that have to mean that infidelity should be taken more lightly. It should be the opposite, if sex is not that important, then you really do not have the need to have an affair
I don't think it's that simple. He's equating sex to every other social interaction. When he says, isn't really that important, he's saying that it's not as important as what society is pushing it to be. It's not any more, or any less, important than other social interactions - communication, gesturing, touch, the meeting of the minds, etc.
@@ja-ddoesitall9860 yes, I get that, but they are saying that we give too much importance to sex (which I agree with), and then they use it as an excuse as to why infidelity is natural and not that bad. It is like saying: society gives too much importance to alcohol when it is really just a natural substance that we take naturally because our brains enjoy it, so being an alcoholic is not that bad.
Something being natural and normal does not mean it is good and not harmful.
@@rodriguezelfeliz4623 I can understand that, but they didn't say infidelity. They said adultery. We use these terms interchangeably, but they mean different things. One is the act of sleeping with someone else that one is not married to. The other is not being faithful to your marital partner, which is wrong, in my opinion. The fact that we combine these two terms is the issue that they are mentioning. Because I sleep with someone else, does not mean I undervalue my marital relationship, which is a narrative that society pushes.
@@ja-ddoesitall9860 mmm... I don't know if that argument convinces me tbh...If you sleep with someone else you do undervalue your relationship. If you are not willing to sacrifice something that is not too important and just an instinct to keep the trust of your partner, then you may value that relationship, but not as much as you value your own satisfaction. When you really value a relationship you are able to say "this is good, and I love my partner, so even if I find someone better than her in some small aspect (like sex), I will still choose her over that, because the relationship as a whole is more valuable than that interaction that can damage trust".
Anyway, that is just my opinion and I am not an expert by any means, just a regular guy with wat too much time on his hands.
But I think you are right about infidelity vs adultery, however in the video they were talking about monogamy, so I assumed they really ment infidelity.
@@rodriguezelfeliz4623 that's a fair assessment. But monogamy doesn't mean marriage. There are many monogamous relationships that don't go into marital covenants. I also understand your thought process on the matter. But there are more assumptions that you're making in your example. In the one you provided me, you're saying that by having sex with someone else, I'm breaking her trust, which is typical of a social narrative. But what if the sexual encounter with someone else isn’t breaking the trust of your partner? I can understand being disciplined enough to not have sex with anyone else. It's possible to do that, but in doing so, you cut off a large portion of something that is instinctual to man, similar to a person who decides to not eat meat anymore. But there is a huge problem when everyone that is born begins to be pushed into vegetarianism because it's a societal norm.
Also, the idea of a sexual encounter being equated to a breech of trust is a taught insecurity that is normalized within society. If things were different, anything leading up to sex could just as easily have been criminalized.
@7:30 "the more parts of yourself you can bring into a relationship, the less likely you will try to find those parts outside of it"
That's the key right there
The way i see it, monogamy isn't the most expressive way of living a sex life but the most stable, sane, and historically good-enough way. It also allows to simmer a deep, deep relationship with your partner the older you get, which will make it richer and more profound than any multiple surface level relationships.
We evolve around the circumstances, it is the best possible way to go in our society for overall the healthiest of everything and thats why we all prefer that. Unfortunately tho we are losing it and we are screwed.
100% agree, the thought of having a loyal life partner is so heartwarming and wholesome, but when I think of polyamory all my hairs stand up right away as to tell me instinctively that this is nothing good!
Well, is also natural trying to kill someone when you are mad, is it moral though?
i do not feel like killing someone when im mad....
Depends on you bro, society told you it's not moral to maintain its stability
@@maryamevetovics6005 Then you are not an alpha
Derived from the golden rule, "treat others how you want to be treated," a modern ethic is formed, roughly, "as long as everyone gives informed, enthusiastic, and ongoing consent, and as long as no one is getting hurt, do whatever you want."
Operating from that moral, murder violates the golden rule and the modern ethic. Having an affair violates it to a lesser degree because the one being cheated on didn't consent and can be harmed. However, if you talk with your partner and agree to open up your relationship, that can still be moral.
Morality discussions are the worst thing us humans do. Essentially we're patting ourselves on the back for never doing that certain immoral thing, and turning a blind eye to god knows how many aspects of ourselves that we are lacking in. Not to mention, we're reinforcing our shadow self in the process.
To each their own. At the end of the day, you have to live with the consequences of your actions. That being said, I’ll choose monogamy every time. 😊
My thing is this regardless if monogamy is natural if you are in a relationship or married unless otherwise stated its assumed you essentialy made a contract with someone to be monogamous so to go behind someones back to break that promise and hide it is the issue. I thinks it more of the idea of "betrayal".
The simple solution is if you are no longer satisfied with a relationship just leave, but of course societies have created certain societal norms and rules that make that challenging. Looks at you religion.
Your statement indirectly makes the claim that if I cheat, I therefore am no longer satisfied with the relationship. And that's not always the case.
@@ja-ddoesitall9860 well to an extent you are in a sexually sense they no longer sexually satisfy you ( their sexual novelty) so you find it somewhere else which isn't an issue. This is why open relationships are a thing.
The issue and my point is the betrayal and lying which is not good for any relationship.
very good point in the first paragraph .. it's the betrayal
Then it will be like changing clothes. The same clothes worn everyday will get bored. So it's not betrayal.
@@De-tw7by if both people agree to an open relationship then no its not betrayal
But if you GIVE YOUR WORD and agree with someone that you will be monogmous and you break that deal then yes its betrayal
The sex isnt the issue its the trust you broke and breaking your word
So no its not changing cloth because cloths are not sentient beings
It’s more likely that monogamy evolved much later after we split from chimpanzees and the bonobo. As our brain size increased so too did the maturation length of the foetus and the human animal. This meant it was advantageous for us to be monogamous as it increased the likely hood that our offspring could reach sexual maturity
But in a primeval horde, children would be cared for by all members.
@@originalblob hence evolution, essentially as we became more successful (survived longer) the horde became unmanageable making family networks more important. Many animals have evolved monogamous behaviour for the exact same reason, such wolves that have a mated pair (read monogamous) to ensure successful offspring while avoiding over population. Simply put monogamy evolved naturally and isn’t some religious or moral imposition.
Solid theory
Thank you. It always shocks me to see how few people know about this. It gets tiring to hear the "because lions/insert other animal" argument. One of the reasons we were able to build such intricate social structures and become more intelligent beings is because of monogamy and part of our brain and capacity not being occupied with mating and protecting offspring against aggression of our own kind. It build opportunity for children to grow up with more safety. And still it seems like it's healthier for children to grow up in a stable family with a father and a mother. It often seems like people are using impulses as an argument for non disciplined behaviour. Urges don't always have to become actions.
I'm glad to find someone in the comments that is making sense instead of using polygamy as a lame excuse.
At the end of the video, Dr. Esther Perel made a significant point. Well said!
Its not informative and meaningful if it doesnt point out how wrong polygamy is, duh.
Very beautiful video. Thanks for sharing this. I would say as far as I have understood life we all have desires and every desire that we have has an infinite depth and it's up to us that at what extent we feel satisfied with that desire and move on to the next one. Determination is what it takes to understand the importance of certain things and bringing up your desire back into certain things that are important. At the same time self-exploration and the desire to explore our own different version is a part of self-discovery with the things in reach and I really believe based on my own application that meditation is a very beautiful tool to explore and unfold the truthfulness within and it cultivates the wisdom, depth, and beauty of all the things that we do outside.
Good synopsis. Our human sex drive is a very powerful natural force. The temptation to mate with someone other than your spouse when in your prime, can be used to reignite your passion with your spouse, or, totally blow up your life. Having those strong healthy urges can even make you suspicious of your spouse because you think they must think like you think. Very confusing conflicted time period up until about 60...or 70?...or 80 (Nah).
@@riproach7452 It seems like that until you really fall for someone. I thought like you until it happened to me.
@@riproach7452 Love is real but that drive to mate with other, in my case females, outside my love situation was electric at one time. However, I could not pull it off as I have a conscience about actually doing it and couldn't come home acting normal if I did. At 68 now I still think about it if my testosterone level pops for some reason but the fever has definitely subsided. We are very possessive/protective creatures by nature and I guess are generally wired to feel that someone stepping outside our love bond is an attack on us as a person and family unit (kids) if you have any. If you and your love are cool with it, great, and I do know people that used to slink off and do it on the sly and a few that were swingers. Lust is incredibly powerful and is also wired into us, but unharnessed it can disrupt the stability of our also wired in desire for social unity. Very conflicting.
Holy crap, I’d like to read more from you. What you wrote makes 100% sense ( for me personally ). I see you are an educated well thought man
@@michaels7566The problem is financially does the women have enough money to have her own household.
The second problem is a monogamous society, everybody loses their friends, their family and lovers to monogamy. So two people well have to pledge to not ever be Monogamous other wise if one breaks that deal then you could lose them to Monogamy.
If you decide to become monogamous you also break other people hearts unnecessarily because you decided you wanted one best friend aka girlfriend/ boyfriend instead of 2 or 3 best friends aka boyfriends /girl friends
Let's say I am a guy and I have female best friends (who are actually sexual relationships) and all of them have a house hold to live in that's paid off so their financially stable, then let's say both people pledge they never want to be Monogamous ever.
Now the relationship is simple, you are friends who live apart but are very close. You buy each other birthday presents, your there for each other in times of need. The man peforms his manly duties around her house and the women performs her female duties at his house
The communication is like friends, sometimes you talk alot, sometimes you don't, sometimes one friend moves to another country, sometimes one friend starts hanging out with new people and disappears for abit. But just like best friends do, your always still friends, you never have to worry about losing your friend to Monogamy because your both best friends for life who don't want to be Monogamous. So now other people are not a threat. You may have many friends (sexual not close relationships) and only 1 best friend (long term sexual relationship) You may be very social and have 2 or 3 best friends aka girl friends/ boy friends.
Also like a good best friendship, you hang out alot for periods of time and sometimes your both busy. This called pairing and bonding, you spend excessive time in ideal situations for eg: the weekend, road trip, event, party, holiday. Then when times are not ideal like busy working, going through a tough time, family issues and just like best friends you may say your busy but talk over the phone or text, you may finally catch up with them when your in a good mood but still may talk about what your going through while the other best friend (long term sexual best friend) helps you through your issues.
This way just like a best friendship spending time together when it is more of a ideal situation allows you both to bond closely together and taking time apart when things are tough or your tired or sick etc allows space to avoid conflict. This is also what all monogamous relationships lack due to each other wanting to save money on a house and not wanting to lose the other partner to monogamy.
Some best friends well stay friends for life, and some don't
Having other partners is part of our animal self, also is envy and the Predisposition to kill... So, should we Succumb to it??
I agree with the point you're making: not all that's natural is necessarily good, but our 'predisposition to kill' is a false mainstream belief based on discredited experiments, and false facts. I recommend reading Humankind, a hopeful history.
@@JIJICA100 well yes and no! I can put in other words... Predisposition to aggression, I know that the predisposition to kill is a debatable one, but to aggression is factual and consequently it can lead to a kill since human beings are very fragile and tend to use objects to inflict damage on the other.
That book is in my list of books I want to read, however is also on my checked list the book "the murderer next door why the mind is designed to kill" that defends the thesis that we are design to kill since "Because over the aeons of human evolution, murder was so surprisingly beneficial in the intense game of reproductive competition, our minds have developed adaptations to kill" it conducted a 5000 people survey so is Epistemological, and is mention on the APA website (American psychological association).
@@rafaelabreu2873 It was the predisposition to aggression that I think is debunked in Humankind, decisively I would say: The murderer next door is mentioned, and I think all the arguments in it are also in Humankind but seen from a different angle. Many of the most known psychological experiments that underlied this grim view of human nature have been exposed as flawed or hoaxes (e.g. Prison experiment, Milgram) The clash between these two view points is absolute. I came in partially believing the grim story and changed my mind, I would be very curious about your views after reading Humankind.
I understand what you are trying to say, and I would love to read that book that you mention, however, being a psychologist I cannot use "sapiens", this being a book of the "non-fiction" genre, as an argument, I can only use it as something that informs me about a view of the author. don't get me wrong, I realize the love you have for this book, however, alongside the empirical evidence that "the murderer next door why the mind is designed to kill" contains, sapiens cannot serve as a counterweight, there is a very strict scientific construction criteria that have to be followed.
I must tell you that it is a fact and scientific that the human being is predisposed to violence, yes, it only varies in intensity from person to person due to genetic differences and brain structure. So there are no non-aggressive people, they all have the potential for aggressiveness and I believe in the thesis that argues that everyone also has the potential to kill.
You are giving me something new about the Stanford and Milgram experience, however from what I read it is controversial and open to scientific debate, and thankfully. Because scientific research is made up of this, new information is aimed at validating or opposing the present theses. But let us keep in mind a phenomenon that served Zimbardo with a "natural validation" to his experience: the case "abu ghraib prison" that is used by Zimbardo as an argument, take a look.
What i will recomend you is, probably the best is not to stick to one side of the coin and admit that we only have assumptions (and opinions) about human nature.
It depends on the paradigm. do you believe that human beings are innately bad or innately good? innately good with the potential for evil? innately bad with potential for good? Hobbes VS Rouseau
@@rafaelabreu2873 I believe innately good with the potential for evil, Based on the evidence, it looks to me like Rousseau was closer to the truth. Humankind (not sapiens) is not a scientific paper, It is an author's opinion backed up by an impressive quantity and quality of evidence, much of it scientific. I would not say I am in love with the book or its conclusion, but I may have a bias towards a positive view. Imagine how much our society would change if we turned around things and started from the assumption that most people are good! As a psychologist I think you are familar with the Pygmalion and opposite Gollum effect. That's why I think this matter is really worth looking into and I would like to challenge my current perspective, so please let me know what you think after you read the book. This is youtube after all, I cannot enumerate all the studies included there such as the one on how many people actually (used to) shoot their guns in war.
Good stuff! My fiancé, and I, read through Dr. Perel’s book together, as we have navigated having an open partnership. When I tell you that once you’re able to let go of sex not being a big deal, the world opens up. Communication is better. Sex is better. Intimacy is better. We make decisions together, and argue less. Good stuff!
I'm much less interested in whether monogamy is natural and more interested in whether it's a stable way to organize society.
Spoiler alert: it's not.
indeed. also one point many people seem to fail to note, despite polygamy being "natural" is the fact that there is an abundance of STDs that can be contracted by engaging in polygamous behavior, regardless if protection is used or not. the incredible burden STDs pose on human society financially and healthwise is outrageous. from a epidemiological standpoint, polygamous behavior is VERY unhealthy for society and should not be promoted. not to mention the psychological damage that is also wired in our biology when finding out a loved one is being polygamous. even if we are animals we have the capacity to control our behavior based on what is healthy, not necessarily what feels good...
@@athenachavez8 This is complete and total horseshit. No one is promoting or discouraging polyamory. "polygamous behavior is VERY unhealthy for society" What non-orifice did you pull this "fact" from?
@@athenachavez8 I've never seen too much ignorance on a text before. Monogamy is a culture. A people have the right to be FREE to do what they want and have the kind of relationships they want. Polygamy shouldn't be promoted in society? So let's all promote monogamy, the christian institution who was first created to possess women and has caused lots of damage in society as well, right?. Ur argument is the same as the people who condemn homosexuality bc of STDs and it's just a product of ignorance and prejudice. Are u hurt bc u were cheated once? Get over it. It doesn't mean u have the right to promote that much ignorance over other people's preferences in relationships. And u know absolutely NOTHING about non-monogamic relationships when u resume it polygamy. Someone can be in an non-monogamic and have sex with only one person her entire life. We're not promoting orgy without protection. We're promoting freedom, something we've been fighting hard for since the start of our society
Monogamy is certainly easier to manage for society, because it's much easier to manage two people plus their offspring rather than three or more people that married with each other plus their offspring. Monogamy is also financially more viable if you're not rich and it's easier to solve problem when you only have to negotiate with one person rather than more.
Natural doesn’t always mean good.
Since humans species are also governed by social aspect. Generic human society dictates that of the 2 options (monogamy and polygamy), monogamy is the safest alternative, as the other would cause societal conflict and unrest.
@@alexanderthegreat3424 It seems like many of our evolutionary impulses were beneficial in the cavemen days, but they often hinder the prosperity of civilizations.
@@alexanderthegreat3424
The other IS causing unrest.
Female hypergamy is a sort of polygamy.
@@batman5224 Good point. Id say, there is always 'relative optimize applicability' of something.
Take for example the topic at hand, if you will apply it during caveman days as you mentioned, I think (as an spectator) these caveman peeps must strive for pure numerical and quality breeding to push development as they need much manpower in their simple and crude system: to hunt to bring down big beasts, then to agriculture to plow the vast fields, and upon upscale of their system is the quality of people to develop clusters/communities to defend themselves from other clusters/communities. These are not achievable in a monogamous society or would take a lot of generations to develop in a monogamous society. Polygamous (or of any sort/form) is the optimized route for this objective.
However, when human society has already reached its full maturity and reached the complex system it could govern itself (as we are in post modern age), its objective is to preserve the order of this system, thus monogamous route is preferrable in this circumstances.
Yeah I feel natural urge to kill humanity, but I end up being alone so I control my urge.
what it did to you vs. what it meant for me
damn that lady was straight spitting facts
a narcissistic man would say that as a comeback after he cheats , lol
@@TeKeyaKrystalsame with a woman lol
Thanks for this video, THANKS!
A lot of this has been people getting "bored" or have their passion diminished over time. Don't people grow and change over time? You can fall in love with a "new" person multiple times within a single relationship if you are both open to change and growth.
Native Hawaiians had very fluid sex lives. It was normal for men especially to have male lovers as well as women. We also had something called Po’alua which was a relationship with a woman that has two main men that she is with. Interesting if you research other indigenous cultures.
Interesting, never knew that. One more good example showing that monogamy is a social construct.
@@Me__Myself__and__I stop your manipulated comments everywhere
Wow that’s interesting.. thanks for the info
@@curious6190 My comments are factual. I'm not trying to manipulate anything because I believe people should be able to make their own minds up on the subject. So I'm not against or opposed to monogamy if that's what people choose. But I do think people should be well informed and make their own decisions (in all things).
@@Me__Myself__and__I Me Myself I
Yes. monogamy is a social construct, but so are things like music, human rights, nations, manners, hygene, laws,, etc. Just because something is a social construct, doesn't mean it's bad.
Wow, just 8 minutes, and it gave me so much to think about.
Nothing to think about. It’s stupid
@@thepowerofgodministry6265 Not thinking; now that's stupid, by definition.
Sex is not just sex. A lot goes with sex. Your heart, your mind, fungi, bacteria viruses plus all kind of STD plus STI plus money goes with sex. It’s inherent in everyone man and woman who want to build a healthy family to protect themselves. It’s not about cultural conflict. Its about religion, It’s about protection. It’s in our DNA to protect ourselves so that we can produce healthy offspring and extend the generations. These so called sick psychologists are idiot. They have interviewed many sick people and they themselves become sick.
@@thepowerofgodministry6265 Do you know what a word salad is?
some religious beliefs are mischievous at best,from Abraham in genesis,u see polygamy plays itself out hence you preach monogamy,it's sad reality
Amazing content. Thanks a lot
If someone has expectations from somebody then it's natural to feel sad when they do what you don't want them to do
And staying truthful to one person is a sign of good dedication which have many positive impacts in life for eg if you don't cheat you're likely to get other good habits as well
Sounds to me they are just looking for excuses to cheat on their partners. If you want to be promiscuous please don't get married or have a partner (unless if your partner knows and agrees to your nature).
Hahahaha exactly my thought.
Conflict between what we are and what society we build, leads to disastrous world like ours 😂
What society we built is a stretch over a more specific problem which is religion and the belief in the nuclear family.
In which way is our world disastrous?
@@FiFiFilth .....I have a needle and I can help rolling away the rock
It was an invention by religion to keep the orphans numbers down , cross breeding, disease and other such things that humans do to each other.
@Sunny Toppo You have no idea what life was really like 10,000 years ago. No one really does. We can barely agree on historical events from 2,000-5,000 years in the past.
She speaks so clearly and straight to the point ! i loved it and got my answers ! Science is good enough !
I've never met anyone, male or female, who was happy with their marriage / relationship and cheating at the same time, never once. I have no idea what the last speaker was referring about finding different versions of yourself, sounds like nonsense. ... also, when the house you live in is more important than the sex you're having with your spouse you're in trouble!
Polygamy = the Failure-Version of Monogamy.
It’s really easy to understand. Endogamy is probably the biggest danger for societies all through the vast majority of our history. Small bands and tribes living apart from each other have this issue. So introducing new genes into the group became crucial for survival.
She is so sharp and straight to the point, would love to hear more from her.
She has a podcast!
In the end, it's your personal choice. Whatever feels natural to you, you do. Because its a part of you and your identity. Embrace who you are. There's no one else in this world that is quite like you. So do what you must to find out who that person is. I wish you the best of luck. 🤗
Lol this is total bullshit, doing anything is fine, having no boundaries, morals, or virtues! You're a special sunflower! xDDDD
I agree that we place more value on the importance of sex even though sex isn't that important to make a relationship work, in my opinion we think it's the sex that is the issue but it's much deeper than that.... the bond we desire is the root of the problem for most people. We feel threatened, insecure, offended, betrayed, unsafe, and often envious when we try to bond with a partner if that partner seems to create or have a bond with another. I believe the ego has a big impact on that part of it. It becomes a misguided power struggle unfortunately. When a person is upset about their partner possibly giving attention to someone other than them the partner often sees it as an attempt to control or manipulate ( which does happen) When for some it is a cry for more love. The partner then sees it as someone is trying to control them and us as humans are devious in nature so we rebel... and it hurts our partners.... instead I think we should be more understanding and realize that our partners need to be given some attention, not retailiation!!!!!!! Love should not be a war. Period. In my Opinion.
WE? Speak for yourselves.
Much of our idea and value around sex is cultural and not biological. And so is our idea of relationships and connections. Seeing it just are a biological evolution thing like most animals is incomplete.
Human species are more shaped by their psychology than their biology imo.
@@nehamotwani6477
It’s because our culture is controlled/influenced by what women want. Naturally sex is very important to women because they can get pregnant and etc, so men and women do not view sex equally.
@@machastorm5 becuz what men want is unfair to women if the partner cheats sexually then he's pointing it to his partner that she's not enough blatant disrespect to her...but since the woman is focused only on her partner... So it's deep injustice to her that's why monogamy is the standard
Biggest thinkers?? They're wrong! It goes even deeper. It goes beyond economy or psychology of the individual. It is biological survival first. We need both. Monogamic people help survival of species when there's deadly STD's, like aids. Being attracted to adultery is essential to break through inbreeding in small communities. Nature needs both. Just in case. Hence we have people who always stay faithful, people who just want strangers and people in between. What these 'big thinkers' offer is how we rationalize it for ourselves and overlook nature within.
Diseases are also part of the nature to keep the population in check. We are overpopulated and stripping the Earth off resources at the expense of other species.
@@KelvinLKY Yeah, rather than let a few million die of Covid we choose to let a few die as possible, to keep enough consumers around. Like that?
I agree, they are wrong. and one point i see these people always seem to fail to note, despite polygamy being "natural" is the fact that you mentioned. that there is an abundance of STDs that can be contracted by engaging in polygamous behavior, regardless if protection is used or not. the incredible burden STDs pose on human society financially and healthwise is outrageous. from a epidemiological standpoint, polygamous behavior is VERY unhealthy for society and should not be promoted or normalized. even if we are animals we have the capacity to control our behavior based on what is healthy, not necessarily what immediately feels good...
@@athenachavez8 Indeed polygamy, or polyamory as some prefer now, has the STD danger; polyamory even much more, as it isn't a closed loop often. Yet, we can expand on the other extreme as well; the damage of inbreeding. Here history offers us real stories of inbred kings that (almost) destroy their nations. And when young stories of villages with huge suspicion of outsiders being called dumb (because of inbreeding) or mental health issues related to it. Here they meet each other; syphilis and inbreeding both can create mental insanity. I personally know 1 person for whom polyamory seems to work. I also know a few (mostly men) who claim it's their way, making everyone unhappy around them. I think, for them, it's more like escaping responsibility. Thus being true to your true nature, let alone knowing what it is, can be quite a journey. And that's even not even mentioning what the rules of your society are.
This is what I think. It's not one or the other but some of each.
We should follow our heart. One rule shouldn't be for everyone. I've always been polyamorous. Be honest with your partner before getting into a serious relationship. It's a personal choice to be monogamous or not,
Thats absolutely wrong and it's the silly belief that 'Nothing matters, so of course its everyones own personal decision' that makes people think Randmoization is okay for everything.
Hence why many issues like flat-earthers are a thing.
thank you
True
From your perspective, What are the negative sides of polyamory? If you don’t mind me asking.
@@Eleventyeleventh someone with an underlying pathology. Such as narcissism. Those kind are very dangerous, no matter what type of relationship.
"There is a conflict between the kinds of animals we are and the kind of society we want to build."
Monogamy is the Real modern evolution. When we were less evolved the world was a very different place, it was natural for the survival of the species and one self to have more partners. More partners = more opportunities to stay alive physically and mostly psychologically.
If I love someone I'd never want to ruin the uniqueness we share (not even in bed). If we say, it is for self discovery and exploration we are basically saying that in order to find meaning and be happy humans should be Anarchists. Do whatever you want whenever you want for your own needs.
"Titillated"
Titty lol
@@korayyy440 😂😂
twitterpated :) .... From Bambi
😂😂😂
It’s also the naturalistic fallacy to say how things are is how they should be. We have a strong natural desire for a lot of things that we just don’t do because we have decided that we shouldn’t. This is not for or against monogamous relationships. It’s just a fact.
In my opinion, it's simple. It's all about seeking thrill.
Yes lol
It's important to clarify the meaning of natural before diving into the details. By natural, does it mean possible, common, or moral? There are differences between monogamy is naturally possible, monogamy is commonly practiced, and monogamy is morally justified. Note that even if the last statement were true, the opposite would be monogamy is not morally justified; not polygamy is not morally justified.
Everything is "natural" or "unnatural" depending on how you frame it. The word is meaningless.
That's true
@L Tchort by you just now
There’s a definition for natural and unnatural but folks don’t know the definitions and have subjective views. The words “justify” and “unjust” have no objective definitions.
@@mycodingchannel9690 depends if you believe in a higher power (I mean God) who dectates what's Good and bad
@@nordinator89 we aren’t getting fanatic here. What dictates what’s good and bad is already within us, it’s actually not dictating but only naturalism. What fanaticism/ religion does is that, it takes it and indoctrinate folks with their own set of morals for political needs. Now you may ask what’s this natural mechanism that “dictates” good and bad. It’s neuroscience and psychology, which functions to make us feel good and feel bad, while evolutionary biology plays a role is survival by hindering those “feel good”, “feel bad” psychological mechanisms, when necessary. Don’t let religion ruin naturalism.
About 3 years into my first marriage of 20 years and 2 daughters, I was (for lack of a better word) seduced by a friend who was also married, but to an abusive drunk. The first kiss was surreal to say the least, then it went on from there for about 2 months. But when I came back to my senses, guilt racked me and I didn't wanna lose my wonderful wife. I never lusted after other women, as I was sold out to my wife. But the other woman knew me very well as we had been friends for years in our youth. She knew exactly what to do to get me to crack. Anyway, I guess my point is that I'm still bothered by that incident even though I've since re-married twice (3 times if I count re-marrying my first wife, even though it only lasted 2 years). This was over 40 years ago, and it still haunts me. If I could do it over, I have run like hell from my friend that day and never look back. A conscience is a terrible thing to damage and it lasts a lifetime.
Absolutely impartial views on this subject! Nice!!
I think this is the first big think video I’ve watched that actually somewhat answers the question
this makes me sad but it's also something i want to overcome. i am deeply idealistic but also flighty. i want that one undying love for my whole life, but when i've been in a serious relationship, i often met new people who i felt attraction for and wanted to explore a relationship with. i've come to the realization that there will always be new, interesting people to meet. but i also want to have children and grow old with someone, and i think i need to just welcome and accept non monogomy.
To me, I love meeting new interesting people and I love flirting, but that never translates to wanting sex. I would never want to be anything but monogamous; I love having a deep connection and a one and only love (married for five years). When I meet new people it can boost my ego, but I never want anything more than that. I mean, you do what’s right for you of course, but I’m just trying to say that feeling a thrill when meeting new people doesn’t mean we have to act on that, unless that is something you truly feel like you need to do :-)
@@josephinenilsson1541 My opinions have 100% changed just in the last year since writing this. I see your perspective completely.
@@josephinenilsson1541 I don't think the implication was that "you have to act on those feelings," just that they exist, and they have an effect on the situation, even if you are in a relationship
@No One Really For me it's the other way around, I'm paranoid about the idea of marriage because of cheating men I've encountered. My father cheated on my mom, my brother cheated on his wife. When my sister in law initially wanted a divorce, but now she has come to terms with the concept that apparently a lot of men cheat and stays in the marriage. The fact that the men cheat and women has to just swallow the bitter pill to save the marriage and so that their children can have both parents present in their life is just a concept that I can't accept. Fyi, I live in a conservative asian countries where divorce is stil mostly shunned upon.
@@oioioi223 it's not off the table. This person never said those were her "only options." Actually, you fabricated the entire quote, so you're upset about something that was never said
“All sexuality is mental & spiritual”-sadhguru
Meaning: it’s REAL that you have this spiritual experience, you’re supposed to:that’s why you’re attracted to it. However it can change overtime and/or Due to destructive government/media causes on societies we can become “Distracted” & taken off course from where our spirit would be happy.
Watch Esther perel’s video about “Infidelity” it’s the same reference on what she’s saying here except much more detailed
last explanation was absolutely amazing
Thank you ❤
“ I needed to hear that “
the last speaker was an absolute queen
Difference between science and religion:
Science changes as evidence changes and never claims to know things it can't prove.
Religion never changes no matter what happens and claims to know everything without proof.
If you think they are right like people before who foolishly thought eugenics was right, future generation will laugh at you for taking science as a way too seriously.
Dont be too righteous in ignorance.
The eugenics movement was a social movement cherry picking scientific facts to justify their conclusion that their group was superior to others. It happened before Darwin, but after Darwin it was used as justification.
@@sunset2.00 like present generations are laughing at older generations for believing in religion. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's right, it only means that it's rotten and corrupt.
Don't be so righteous in ignorance
@@francisbacon4363
You have to provide evidence fore to refute Other than vague idealism.
What I can see modern way of life failing.
Modern feminism destroyed relationship or dating n marriage. Liberal destroyed parenthood, welfare is destroying economy with ever burddening debt,egalitarianism is just against plain science etc...
Present gen are too young and ignorent grow up you will see why evolution chose religion and you will replaced for more successful one.
@@sunset2.00 we'll see won't we and I don't support any ism especially feminism and marriages were never super successful, dating apps and social media destroys marriages as they show a plethora of people to choose from exactly like a candy shop, almost all religions are poisonous and all religions are definitely stupid because they refute science which is hilarious if not toxic
Ah, Esther Perel's voice always calms me down
Well said! 👌
I see Esther, I click.
I did the exact same thing
Small correction in etymology : monogamy < mono (= one ) + gamos (=wedding)
source ?
My husband is scientist and I asked him about this, besides of the interest to have a long term relationship with me, hahahaha, he told me that there was a time for pre-humans that polygamy was important to survive, but monogamy was later crucial to develop language and intelligence since the baby needed his both parents to survive. So monogamy says more of evolution that the contrary. Monogam people is more evolutioned that animal polygamist people. Personality, I even think that monogamy is the answer for overpopulation, but I consider the last interview with Esther very useful, there is a genetic part that tells to be unfaithful so that is why is so important to bring all personal sides to the relationship to guarantee the so longing stability.
True, but if someone wants polygamy, then it's his choice isn't it?
@@darksecret6050 like Islam
I think you cannot deduct less evolved humans from less monogamy
Super interesting!
In Fidelity you will find true love and genuine joy, while Infidelity will give you nothing but temporary and selfish pleasure.
And then lose the secure love you had, destroy the family, cause metal trauma to the children, nature hatred and enmity, etc, etc... The problem is this video seems t not only ignore the victims of adultery, but they also do not condemn it and even hint at enabling it.
@@level9drow856 Ya that's how people who do not believe in God live.
@@alvinflorantec.gitamondocj3659 I'm Atheist and still hold those values.
@@level9drow856 infidelity can only destroy the family and cause mental trauma to kids if the family had secure attachement style
but if the family had anxious preoccupied or avoidant attachement style then the family is already destroyed and kids already have mental trauma and will pass it on to their own kids too unless they become aware of having an unhealthy attachement style and heal it
@@level9drow856 I forgot to say: that's how "most" people who do not believe in God lives.
Marriage = monogamy. It’s a sacred ideal that calls for sacrifice…loyalty in the face of desires and options …to simultaneously say Yes to the one and NO to all others. It’s an issue of character (what you are when no one is looking). It makes ‘forbidden fruit’ tempting and hard to resist.
So many favourites in one vid!
Monagamy is the gift that two people give one another when they agree to commit to a one on one relationship.
Its never been a one size fits all situation.
The key is to be honest with yourself and any potential partner about what you really want.
I need to read Esther's book. That was quite profound...
Polygamy = the Failure-Version of Monogamy.
If you want an open relation than decide WITH your partner that you want to be in an open relationship, its called cheating because you failed to come to an understanding with your partner beforehand.
!! this right here.. it's really this simple
Thanks!
People stray because they can and because they want to, pure and simple.
That last speaker is dropping truth bombs!! Fucking legit.
It makes me mega-dissapoitned how Big Think embarasses itself again and again by seemingly legit thinking Polygamy is anything else but the more primitive version of Monogamy.
Why is this channel promoting the so-called ‚Failure Version of Monogamy’??
@@nenmaster5218 HAHAAHA
Yeah, well that just like, your opinion, man.
@@zacrl1230 Yeah, you started your comment with hahahah in Caps, sooooo... yeah... ok... yeah...
...
@@nenmaster5218 You are clearly not a man of culture.
Best of luck in life. Remember to wear your helmet.
@@zacrl1230 Embara$$ing comment, even if you did not end the comment with lmao
So called desire, is endless. For a world to be peaceful one should master peacefulness.
Hmm if you look at different primate species, some have physiology that makes them pure monogamists, and others that are totally polygamous. Humans have the physiology of both of those.
Exactly, but society doesn't let one side gain any freedom.
Now I'm not saying it's bad. The society has a reason for it. It wants to create a stable society in which, monogamy is a little better, I think.
Brilliant insights that move us away from possessiveness, jealousy and judgement- thank you
😂 You think you can beat something that's deeper than your psyche? I don't think so!
I have a prior question. Where do we set the boundary for where an infidelity begins? If I have sex outside my marriage, with no deep attachment, that would be considered a betrayal. But what if I fall in love with another man, think of him all the time but never get to sleep with him, should it be considered betrayal?
Yes
Betrayal is when you break the deal. Sometimes The deal is to never sleep with anyone else, or crave someone else, sometimes it's "you are mine and i am yours, may death do us apart", sometimes it's not doing stuff without the other partner's knowledge, so long as you're married. But if you find it hard and you like another person now, you have to do the Honorable. The Honorable action is to tell your spouse that the relationship is going to end, the dishonorable action is to charge in and have your sex and fun without your spouse's knowledge.
By the way this is how i define Love:
• No one knows for sure whether anything is real, you only know that you exist "I think Therefore i am". Therefore it makes total logical sense to put every worth on your life only, Love is when you find someone that you'd give your absolutely sure existence for their uncertain existence because they are now the pinnacle of your life. In other words, Love is the definition of sacrifice.
Other forms of "Love" are just being "fond" of someone.
Yes!
The academic qualified to answer that question would be an anthropologist who studies evolution. And she, Helen Fisher, made it clear right there at the start
“Monogamy is natural!”
In fact, it’s unlikely we would’ve ever evolved from ape like hominids if we weren’t. Polygamy is one of an animals most definitive traits. Nearly 100% of them are.
Oh im gonna drop this knowledge for her tonight!
Dr Esther just blew my mind
5:50 sex is not that big of deal, we sabotage the things which are really important and matters the most, just for the lust.
The Christians are gonna struggle with this one
@L Tchort It does:
The Islam promises 72 virgins as wives for martyrs.
Polygamy among Hindus is sometimes accepted, often with approval by earlier wives.
Most atheists tend to be generally more open than religious people, thus accepting polygamy, same-gender marriage, etc...
Jews -- no idea, gotta ask one :)
Actually not really. I’m a Christian and I don’t struggle with this concept. I think there’s biological truth to it - but at the same time, we have the right to do whatever we want to do but not all is good for us and brings a sense of peace. Also, marriage is a commitment.
@L Tchort believing in fantasy magical beings makes no sense either. In fact makes less sense
I have never been in a relationship. I am now 26 and I don't plan to after watching the video and reading comments. I will stay alive as long I can take care of myself.
That last lady blew my mind! She's so right
It's good to know evolutionary psychology (Gives us knowledge about how we think & why we do so) but just because something is a deeply ingrained habit/behaviour doesn't mean that it necessarily has to be manifested, we should also see who we as humans are today (Natural doesn't always mean good). People should be free to do whatever they want to but at least one can expect some sort of honesty & empathy
I've been saying it for years -- fundamentally, sex is just something naked people do to pass the time.
Everything else is stuff we're bringing to the table.
Fundamentally. You are wrong.
@@louditalian1962 in what way, my dear interlocutor?
Sex is for reproduction and you not have to be naked to have sex
@RJ First, one does not need to be nude for sex to occur - a person wearing a skirt, for example; or any number of pieces of fetish attire.
The evolutionary purpose as to why one may have sex matter of factly is not the sole and only reason one may have sex. Gay sex, for example, results in no procreation and yet any number of species engage in it 'in the wild'.
Animals (human and non-human alike) have sex for any number of 'in the moment' reasons, and not because evolution dictates anything. For example, one might have sex because it feels good per the gays from above. Some do it for intimacy, some do it because they feel obliged/duty-bound to (e.g. harems, etc).
Whatever truths we speak about sex must be true 'across all worlds' and there is far too much observable non-heteronormative variation within the human animals alone to attribute all of it to mere procreation.
Fido humping the table does not result in offspring, yet Fido humps.
The masochist enjoying the lash from a sadist does not result in procreation, and yet this too happens.
As I said, all we can say for sure is that sex is a thing we animals do to pass the time -- anything else will inevitably be because of our own individual views/beliefs/experiences with sex are muddying the waters.
At least, this has been my experience arguing this point before...
/shrugs
Since when is a desire labelled a natural or not natural? WE DECIDE these things for us, we decide if something is natural or not for us.
Maybe some folks should give polyamory a go. It should probably be something discussed before tying any knots, but it might help with some of those problems. The partners would have to prioritize communication and empathy--just like a monogamous relationship--but it might be an alternative worth considering. I know some people who are in these kinds of relationships, and while they're not perfect, they seem to be making it work pretty well.
You have to be relly confident in urself imo to have a successfull polyamory relatinship. If there is even an ounce of self doubt it's gon fuck you up. Not speaking from experience but id imagine thats how id be for me.