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I can take or leave monogamy. What I don't compromise on is the lying about it. The worst kind of partner is the one who demands monogamy and then does not follow through.
I agree. Because it can be life-threatening when a partner 'cheats', gets an STI, and shares that with their partner. I would love to hear more about the responsibility that comes with the freedom to make erotic choices. We often behave like our consciousness 'disappears' when it comes to arousal, but that's conditioning. Here's to embracing our the natural maturity journey of our erotic selves.
@chow tt Um, no, chow it, you have been hanging out with some twisted bitches These are the bullshit Lies I saw from Lyndon LaRouche nut jobs back in the 1980s, because these claims are not substantiated and LaRouche is/was a provocateur, whose unstable fools would claim with their bigoted bulletins while attempting to draw you into his Cult of Extremist Ideals. These tracts were photocopied to the point where they were barely legible, and were part of his followers' set up on a table. They were usually located near various subway entries in NYC, attempting to promote homophobia, THEY FAILED. These false statements reflect far more on your personal fantasies and repressed sexuality than it is based in fact. Scatological Obsessive Disorders can occur with male or female, and amongst every sexuality, but it is an extremely rare behaviour that I have never personally engaged into this unhealthy addition to anyone's diet, including yours, so please don't come to my door, asking if you could borrow a cup of crap because you ran out this morning. I will kick your sorry arse back to the States. Now about the Myth that Gay Men "have thousands of partners." If only! Did you watch Dan's discussions about monogamy and the LGBTQI+ Community? As in every type of sexuality there are likely to be some gay men that have engaged in sex with many men. If you ever saw Dan's husband you would probably want to tap that arse, because he's fucking hot. Smoking hot body, and Dan has always been a very handsome man, and they make a very handsome couple. And they have an open relationship, but I would suspect that their extramarital sexual activities are not a never-ending daisy-chain of fucking. They are fathers, they have very busy work schedules, and for a majority of their many years together they have realised that they were comfortable enough in their own sexual and intimate relationships to open theirs up to other sexual trysts, and for swingers there are boundaries and rules that many couples of all sexualities that permits sexual experiences with each other or on their own, and perhaps they would be comfortable about the distinction between sexuality and sensuality/intimacy.There's a difference, and if you don't get it perhaps you can write to Dan in order to help you understand this. The boundaries probably discuss what they consider permissible and what is not. Judging by Dan and his Husband they probably discuss these moments openly and without judgements, but if you have been writing about sex for 25 years you notice some lessons that have do's and don'ts when it comes to other people.I don't know, and it is none of my business. I am disabled and single. My disability is genetic, which makes it impossible to pass on to others, but even if I didn't have an ultra-rare disability I am not a man that wants to share what I can do with others. I also realise that if that day arrives and I get married to my best mate and husband there could possibly be a point where my disabilities are going to diminish my sex drive. I'm on a load of medications that diminishes my sex drive. It's a neurodegenerative, ultra-rare disability that is not always fun. If I were to be so fortunate to marry a man that I will love forever I need to be comfortable knowing that there will come a point when his sex drive would excel past mine, and I will need to be comfortable in this, because with only 42 other people are diagnosed with my Disability research and the development of a cure is unlikely. I would need to one day be selfless and learn to accept that he might meet someone for the release some sexual tension that I will not be able to accommodate his sexual needs. I want to be on PReP, but I also want to assure that neither one of us passes any STI to the man that I love, and that protectionism would be reciprocated. There will come a point when holding him, being held by him and kissing, touching and connecting with that man that has my complete love and respect for the rest of my days in this life would be a dream come true. I have had sex once in the past decade. I was engaged when the onset started, and everything went downhill because he was incapable of handling my chronic and incurable disability. Our relationship took a nosedive, and we did things that were not bringing us together, and I know that he was having sex with men, and I let thing get out of hand. His fear of my disability turned his guilt about having sex with other men hit close to home, because both of his parents passed away by the time he was 17, so my decline brought so many emotions flooding back to him, so he came back at me with so much rage, because he felt bad about his increased activity outside of the house. Guilt and anger, dampened by drinking and stupid self-medicating only tore us apart. I would try to make everything better, which made him angry at me, because he was angry at himself. It has been over a decade now, and he just can't talk to me nor about me to others because he flips his lid about it. I was worried about his rage, as it was beginning to grow into something far more physically abusive, and when he said that we had to move on I didn't realise that he was possibly talking about getting through this impasse. I packed three bags and returned to the UK, because I feared for my Life. If we would have stopped the self-medicating things could have remained better, but I wanted to come home and didn't want to see just how far his anger that came from the loss of his parents, and then watching my descent was just too hard to bear. I knew that I had to move on in a manner that probably felt as if I was abandoning him, but I was seriously not capable of handling the rage. I took at back-up of our computers and there were photos of him with others. He wrote a note to his best mate, telling him how much I made him sick to look at because "Scary Gary" (for my intelligence) aged 20 years in less than a year and I made him feel sick.Perhaps if we had that discussion about opening the relationship for his sexual needs could have made the ending far less painful for him, but after a lot of pain and tears I forgave him, and I forgave myself. That was truly heartbreaking, because we were that couple so many thought would last, but we didn't affirm that permission when selflessness needs to come into your relationship. Many of my friends listened to me and have maintained friendships with him. Others are far too angry at him to cross that bridge, because they saw the painful choice that I made out of love. So making it sound like gay men have thousands of sexual contacts is an exception and rarely occurs. Wilt Chamberlain, an All-Star Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers' Basketball Legend, was rumoured to have shagged over ten thousand women just during his career. Does every straight bloke shag thousands of women? Nope. Perhaps some guy you're friends with had a lot of luck with the ladies, but even he was unlikely to have fucked thousands of people in his Life, and the same can be said about women. I have friends that are every flavour, and I don't judge. I hope that if you're banging that many people I hope you're making money by working in porn, and if you're doing this you are upfront and honest to your partner, you're using protection, and you stick to the agreed boundaries, because if that partner has been with you for many years you should have the maturity to speak openly to each other, and with respect. Why? Because when you don't have that discussion, when you open up a box of photos, or you go through your back-up, and you make that discovery of those pictures or videos of that person that you have loved for years. doing things that you didn't discuss, do you think that it will not hurt you? That wound can cut so deep, and you can take it personally. Take it from my experience in Life. You can't own somebody else's actions in Life, You can only own your own. You can forget to let go of the blame game. It's their penis, vagina, anus, mouth, breasts, toes, hair, legs, back, hands, neck, ears, and fluids. If you don't have that uncomfortable talk, and you're blindsided by your discovery you can lose your ability to live Life to its fullest. Never forget it.
I'm an old lady who LOVES the company of gay men, simply because the equality is genuine, and the communication is more honest! Dan Savage, you're openness is SO refreshing!!!
@PalmerEldritch666 I wouldn't expect necrophiliacs to be particularly honest about their "kink" for legal reasons alone. Foot fetishism is perfectly legal,readily and anonymously available through the internet and still only eccentric. The mere number shows it. Of course,if you consider everything from anal to zoophilia a sexual kink,you might come to the conclusion that lots of people must have a secret sexual perversion they're too ashamed to be honest about. I,on the other hand,don't believe those invented figures I was taught in school anymore. Like the "10% of the population is homosexual" one. I strongly suspect that all those numbers are wildly inflated,and that the sexual behavior of the overwhelming majority of all people across the world is pretty standard and "boring" i.e. occasional,marital penis-in-vagina sex for the purpose of procreation. So, meeting someone who is honest about an eccentric sexual perversion or dishonest about an illegal,eccentric perversion is still very,very miniscule in my estimation.
I so LOVE what you said about making the world safer for women to be more sexually experimental. The risks and shame that women face are too real and it is long overdue for people - especially for MEN - to speak out against the violence and stigmas. Thank you for saying this!
I felt the same as you when he said that. Women want to have sex, but more than sex, we want to feel safe (emotionally, physically, and healthfully). He hit the nail right on the head!
Female promiscuity is part responsible for eroding the relationship between the sexes in the west. If you want to experiment...there are all kinds of ways to masturbate
Thank you for talking about the concept of The One. I grew up in a very religious family. No sex before marriage, find The One, stay together forever. I had a 7 year relationship, that I should've ended after a year, because he was abusive, not sane and we just weren't good for each other. But I stayed. Because he was The One. When I finally ended it, I realized that something had to be wrong with this concept, but I couldn't quite let go of it. I have a new partner now, but am full of doubts. I am in a relationship that is difficult sometimes and for me the question is always: How difficult means he is not The One? What if The One is out there? He is definitive not perfect, he doesn't fulfill all of the million standards I have on The One. There's love and empathy, there's really good sex and so much attraction, so much respect for each other. Thank god, I didn't throw this away.
I can't believe I've never heard of you before...so many great points but the part about infidelity was SO spot-on! This is such an important message for people to hear in this day and age; "A gold medalist can fall down, get up and still be a gold medalist--not so with monogamy". If more people could view their relationships in such a pragmatic way, consult their hearts and find room to forgive SOME things, people could be a lot happier. Thank you so much for this talk!
I used to work for New Times Broward Palm Beach and his column was always my favorite part of the magazine. It was always honest and informative, and often provided great relationship and sex advice. I'm glad to see that his column has become syndicated and done so well over the years! He's absolutely right, straight sex would be so different if we could broker and discuss what we each want from the experience together first as foreplay, and if those who chose to commit to monogamous relationships would commit to each other rather than a religious ideal of purity that can ruin their marriage if either slips up. 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
I'm a deviant. In addition to that ( and not because of that) I don't view loyalty as never having sex with another person. My son's father caused me to entirely redefine loyalty 20 years ago. He was the most disloyal human being I've ever known and did not touch another woman while we were together. I don't think. And it doesn't matter because he could never injure me more by simply having an affair. I wish that had been our problem. Now I view emotional fidelity as paramount. Do they protect your weak side. If they know something about you do they throw it in your face to win an argument. Do they talk shit about you to their friends and family. In short do they have your back or not? THAT is what loyalty is about to me. And honesty, don't pretend that someone is the only one if they aren't unless your mutual thing is to kind of pretend you don't know when you do and both ppl r fine with it. I think monogamy can work but you really can't be lazy about it, you have to put a lot of work into each other. Love and care,openness and respect, communication and ADVENTURE! I think we write each other off too soon as knowing all there is to know and then we get bored. But there's always so much more to every person. However it may not be the kind of more that you like, lol, I think that happens a lot. So compatibility is extremely important. But I love this idea of upgrading someone from .64 to 1. That's great advice to remember. Although I'd much rather upgrade then from a .8 or .9.
Well said! Yes,"emotional fidelity" is where it's at, since one of the biggest tools of the covert narcissist is to exploit your weaknesses and we have an epidemic of them around.A mate that simply fucks around on you is so much more preferable then a covert narc is for sure.
You've just said what I've been telling people for years...denying your partner dignity and respect is ALSO "cheating". Thank you for such a thoughtful comment... What I've seen through the years is that infidelity touches the vast majority of relationships at some point in time and of my friends who've dealt with it [that I know of], the ones who spent more time justifying their feelings than attempting to understand their OWN personal piece in how it went awry all got divorced in the end. The ones who shared at least SOME of the culpability for a crappy situation made it through and even went on to thrive. That's not to say that you take responsibility for things you DIDN'T do, but the exact opposite. You take a good hard look at what YOU'VE done or not done that you could have done better. You take responsibility for your self and attempt to understand your partner if you can; which is about that emotional loyalty you speak of. Quite often, the one who "cheats" on their partner is really just the one caught with their hand in the proverbial cookie jar that the other one has been snatching goodies from all along --- only being more stealthy about it. In a good relationship, it's not as much about "who slept with who" as it is -- "are we there for each other?" / "can we rely on each other when the shit hits the fan?"
Dan understood the difference between the natural human instinct and all those rules and behavior that society has developed during history. Not everyone accepts and tries to deal with it. This is brilliant and let me just say that he is simply the best!
I love you, Dan Savage. Thank you so much for giving so many of us the advice that we need. In these dark times, you continue to bring together a community that I look forward to joining every Tuesday. Again, thank you.
I really loved the dethroning of the. Concept of finding THE 'O N E ' ! It's such a destructive concept, causing so much unnecessary pain and disillusionment.
Dan this is probably one of the most sensible, practical, realistic (and fun) pieces about us humans, our relationships, and our sexuality that I've ever seen. Thanks.
Mr Savage does his own thinking. Not only that, he can substantiate his thoughts and positions with clarity and substance, especially when he says something that jars our existence. I have also questioned "normal" social norms and how people accept these things never having thought about them or chosen them either.
I agree with everything but the monogamy. I don't believe everyone can be or wants to be monogamous but there a few of us who don't find monogamy hard. For myself monogamy isn't hard as long as am with someone whom I am strongly attached to and attracted to.
@@Serai3 If they don't, they have to communicate this to the partner and together find their way of dealing with it. If the partner can't deal with monogamy and no viable way can be found, the partner believing in monogamy and living it, has to let the other partner go. Otherwise he/she will suffer only heartache, because that person is clearly not the right partner then. The right partner would always make the right choice: Your partner above every other possible partner. To love always requires the greatest courage. And this makes real love also the highest form of freedom. Putting it all on one card. The emotional stakes chosen out of free volition ideally cause people to invest themselves completely into the relationship. Then the relationship works best and natual adventures come into being. Like life, love is an adventure, too. Understanding this makes clear why sleeping around with others doesn't do much for the relationship. It is a withdrawal of investment and a break with what love entails. It shows that people seek their adventures outside instead of making them happen between the two partners who are together. If a person says they can't be monogamous, I as a monogamous person, would advise them to let their partner go. This person doesn't love you.
@@michaellodwich9062 My issue with your line of reasoning is that you are assigning emotional meaning to physical pleasure. I believe, and always have, that sex is something people do to have fun. If anything, the most physical intimacy can confirm is a high(er) level of trust. Love is not a requirement for sexual engagement, and just because a friend, loved one, or spouse decides to have that fun with someone else sometimes doesn't (necessarily) mean they love you any less. Communication about how you define love (apparently by exclusive sexual intimacy) is essential in avoiding heartache on that front, for everyone involved.
@@Vextalf, yes, you are absolutely right. I do assign emotional meaning to physical pleasure because I personally have never slept and would never even consider sleeping with anyone I don't have feelings for. So, yes, love, even if it is just at its beginning, is definitely a requirement for sexual engagement. For me it has never been an option and it keeps puzzling me how people supposedly manage to disconnect these two. Sleeping with someone is fun, absolutely. We agree here. But it comes with an immeasurable amount of responsibility and that's what way too many people forget. If you sleep with a person, you are equally responsible for the person you sleep with as you are responsible for yourself. Too often have I seen people thinking sex is just "fun" and when things went wrong, suddenly they weren't too blame for anything. They were too drunk, they didn't mean it, the girl was at fault for not using protection, they had no idea the other could fall in love, they must have gotten the STI from someone else who hasn't told them. Have met plenty of people like this. And what these excuses have all in common is, that all of them are lame excuses and of course they happen too be super convenient, too. There is a reason why sociologists and psychologist grow increasingly disconcerted about huge amounts of young aged people (20+) unable to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. It is a real problem. True, who am I, you could ask. Fair enough of a question. I admit that I'm not an expert on these things but I do read a lot and over the past two years I have read hundreds if not thousands of different articles and posts in psychological magazines, self-help guides and forums. From all this extensive reading and, in addition, talking to friends in successful long-lasting relationships, the result comes out the same: if you want a real and happy long-time relationship (that's what I consider to be the goal) and not just a hookup, emotional meaning and physical pleasure are inseparable and intertwined. That means that any physical or emotional activity outside the partnership will most likely have an effect on the two partners. And I go as far to say that couples that seek sex outside their relationship, are not happy and not even in love. From the little data on open relationships that is out there, first findings indicate that merely 10% of open relationships last for more than 2 years. And this has a reason because these are very challenging relationships that require absolute commitment, absolute honesty, a very strict and elaborate set of rules and an taking over of extremely high levels of responsibility ... and a very high number of people are, and that's my personal experience, not even capable to take responsibility for their own actions and lives. How the heck do they want to engage in open relationships then. I rather say they should focus on one partner. They have a better fighting chance. Also, all of my friends who tried open relationships, just got hurt because these things are extremely difficult to navigate and most people just don't have the communication skills required for this. Certainly, I do understand that you see it differently. And this is okay. If two partners decide to open their relationship, that is up to them entirely. However, from where I am standing, this doesn't qualify as love to me. It is certainly - and I concur with you - a confirmation of high trust, but I don't regard it as love. I am not judging people who want to try it or see open forms as differently. Everyone is entitled to new experiences and their own opinion. That helps us to grow. And that's good. But seeing all the havoc that those relationships wreak all around me, I simply cannot take these seriously. I for myself qualify them as a form of escapism. Nevertheless, I wanted to thank you for your post. It is actually really well written and very sensitive in its style. I believe that you and I agree on many of the same values, as good communication and trust. This makes you really sympathetic, even if we seem to have a completely different view on physical intimacy I as a guy do fantasize about other guys occasionally, but I would never even dream to have anyone other in my bed than my husband but not because I define love as "exclusive sexual intimacy". It is because I define love as an adventure that two people undertake together. They help each other grow, they support each other and they sacrifice some things along the way to get the better deal because none can have everything in life. It's also a wisdom that has been passed on for generations. We all have to make choices. Only those who cannot decide, keep seeking. Please allow me to point out what I believe about love following Pericles's thinking: Love is absolute happiness because it combines the courage of deciding for one person and thus making visible the absolute freedom we have when we chose to love. It is absolute freedom becuase we have chosen on our own accord and, if love is chosen wisely, it ends the search for someone new and gives complete peace of mind. I take from it that if a person can't find this peace of mind, they haven't found true love.
I have only one criticism of his analogy concerning monogamy. The chef and the snowboarder didn’t choose to burn the omelet or fall down. There is still a decision being made to cheat. It doesn’t happen in 30 seconds or by accident. No one has fallen down some stairs and got up discovering they cheated. If you want to say that we are not naturally monogamous, I would agree to that. But the gift and curse of a conscious mind is the ability to elevate or depress our consciousness. There are other ways to cheat than just having sex with someone else. The goal shouldn’t be to rationalize weakness, it should be to find better ways to strengthen.
Ummm... As a self trained chef... Yes I did make a choice in burning my food. I choose to either walk away and ignore or set the temp too high or possibly use the wrong tools or incompatible ingredients or not hone my technique without help. Like wise the snowboarder choose not to practice that jump enough or chose to psyche themselves out by focusing on a negative thought or get cocky... Eitherway. Choice brought you into monogamy and also you choose to believe in a fairy tale. Thats his point because science matters, we need to also realistically have kindness when we choose wrong because its inevitable. That is all a mistake is and none of us can be perfect. How we react is the aftermath. In his analogy the reaction to a burnt mistake is still a title of Chef but what youtube plenty of people react violent or angrily (Ramsey) to silly or unfortunate mistakes in the kitchen. The reaction often cause more and unnecessary harm to all parties. How you choose to react is what proceeds not the social expectation but what you do with choices made. Some coaches expect their losing team to be pissed or cut them from the team. Other truely coach. They ask why and what can we do different and is this the right fit for the team or for the individuals. Lastly, your critique like many many maaaaany fail to remember relationships by definition include both/all parties decision making unless you are enslaved. There are choices made by both partners. Two people share a road driving same laws and expectations. Yet, one gets rear ended. Insurance may often blame the driver from behind. Does not excuse the other driver of responsibilities or possibly "weakness" as you say in poor driving habits. But the other driver could've slammed on their brakes or under an influence swerving from their dentist visit or playing road games with the driver trying to do their best. Variation of possibilities is the same romatically. Red flags justified or ignored... Selfish spousal behavior changes... Need for therapy brushed under the rug... Untreated depression thus withdrawing leaving both partners lonely (my experience) thus susceptible to poor decisions, drinking beyond your limit, or my fave pure lack of emotional communication... All can being setting you or your partner up to fail. They made that choice individually but If you're a partnership you should support your partner so they are not in need of seeking fulfillment even in places they regret.
Yup. Dan's analogy was stupid. He could've said, "You could be the world's best commercial airline pilot, but you crash one plane and kill a bunch of people, and suddenly you're not considered the world's best airline pilot". Of course, that analogy wouldn't support his point, so he won't make that analogy.
You actually have no way of deciding your desires and biological drives, you can only choose and rationalize to suppress your desires. Falling off the wagon is a failure of your ability to suppress your natural inklings. That is more like a mistake then a choice.
I was raised by hippy parents. I had no concept of "The One". Now, after 7 years with my wife, I feel she is beyond concept of "The One". She is amazing and I'm extraordinarily lucky. I get why folks should settle for .64, but it is possible to have a partner that exceeds any preconceptions of what a partner could be.
It makes me uncomfortable to think about my partner having sex with others, especially if I’m not around. Maybe it’s social conditioning, but it gives me a horrible sinking feeling to imagine someone I love opening themselves up to someone else in such an intimate way. I just don’t know if I’d be mentally and emotionally strong enough to be okay with it honestly. So maybe I just have some more growing up to do. I’m single and gay af anyways. Lmaooo. But I do agree with being open, honest, and communicative about the almost inevitable possibility that it will happen and how you’ll handle it in a way that will preserve your relationship if you really want to be a life partner with someone.
Don't feel bad. Most people can't share their partners. Me included. And it is alright. It's not healthy anyway causing lots of damage to your heart and soul. Sex is super intimate and fullfills special functions. It's worth doing some research on it. After some extensive reading, I'm sure you will come to the same understanding that casual sex is bad and that opening a realtionship is a unfortunate decision. Most people can't handle it anyway and the question is: Do you want to reduce yourself to a dick? Then you make yourself replaceable.
Michael Lodwich It’s best to understand something thoroughly before writing about it. When people love each other without demanding to have a stranglehold on the other’s body, they are less likely by far to take the other for granted as a lover and a sovereign person. Your assertion that opening up a relationship is akin to reducing oneself to a dick is... well... I wanted to write “bizarre,” but I just don’t understand it at all, actually. After some sanctioned casual sex on the side, one mostly tires & discovers a fwb or two are really nice to have, for health and communication and affection reasons. Sex within a monogamous long term relationship fulfills a variety of functions. Same for sex outside of that bond. We have enough emotion and attention and lust and degrees of fondness & tenderness for more than one person.
5 лет назад+3
The discomfort we experience when we consider our partner having sex with others has to do with a sense of ownership and possession. The desire for exclusive sexual rights a great way to learn about ego.
You should never ask weather your person is virgin or not people may sin and ask for forgiveness but no one should expose their sins to others that is wrong my religion does not allow this to expose my sin to others not even my spouse should know this if she know this she may feel bad alot of things can happen which is why we should never expose ourselves to others.
This is programming at its finest. Because it pushes a narrative. Now if the message was "make your own choices, decide for yourself what works for you as an individual. That would be fine and unbiased but you notice how his video has decided 2 sides? It wasn't about being open it was about changing your mind to suit the narrative
@@OneInAMillion31 You clearly didn't get it then. If that is so hard to understand then you and those like you, would never "get it" in the first place. He's talking to the ones that DO.
@@OneInAMillion31 The video favours one side of the monogamy vs open relationship debate. To me this is obviously because monogamy is so ubiquitously accepted as the only acceptable form a "committed" relationship can take... so no wonder anybody who disagrees with that is going to emphasise (and eloquently argue in favour of) the contrary. This isn't programming, as digitatissue said, it's enlightenment.
Just everything! Every conversation I've had and why I stayed single to this but because I came from a staunch purity culture... It ruined my sex life! My relationships! And now I recently decided to be ethically non-monogamous and that means I am forced to communicate with any partner because I also believe in monogamy. 30 yrs of my life! But I've seen it fail no matter how beautifully virtuous, religious/spiritual, academic philosopher, or a "good person" including ministers. So, I asked. I asked questions now for 13 years. This video wraps up everything I have learn and I too respect reasonable monogamy but if I'm true and honest with myself... I turned down a wonderful marriage proposal from a great man who cheated on me and I was mad. I have forgiven but the offer to try again wasn't appealing. Because for me personally monogamy as we practiced it, isn't healthy for me. I appreciate this video!
I remember the foot fetish thing...she lost out big time, OMG getting a foot "treatment" was amazing I told my boyfriend at the time about this column I read....He didn't have a foot fetish but, he won me over with his exploration of the idea
I spent three years with my soulmate before I did something incredibly stupid. During that time, I had no doubts whatsoever, and I was happy almost every day. Talks like these make me believe that the number of people who are incapable of experiencing this kind of love is growing, and that's incredibly sad.
I agree with everything here but the infidelity part. Everything can be shared, including voicing the desire for sex with someone else. Infidelity is an avoidable breach of trust. That's something that can be avoided by telling your partner before you cheat, that you are about to cheat. Hard to do, hard to hear, but better than breaching trust. What happens after that conversation will empower both, and decisions to stay together or allow an affair can be negotiated. Infidelity does not have to be a predictable component of a long-term relationship - desire for others probably is.
I agree. When someone cheats on me I describe it as a form of theft - that person is actually and truly stealing my choice about whether I want to continue with them or not. THAT is what's wrong with cheating. The problem is not the sex, it's the brazen disregard and disrespect for my right to choose what *I* want in the situation. It's just plain greedy to try to keep all the choices for yourself, and it's a horrible thing to do to someone you "care" about. As painful as it is, I'd much rather hear it straight and have a discussion as it offers some opportunity to make my own choices in light of new information.
It is only a breach of trust if you make it one. This is not a law of nature. It is something defined by people, and thus can be defined any way they want.
Yeah how'd that work out for you Daniel telling your wife or GF that you want to go screw someone else?? Huh? You do know that MOST women would be out the door! And most men even if they want to cheat for the variety which men crave...many do still love their partners and do not want to leave the relationship. But if you say this to your partner...good luck. They are gonna be out the door!
It's always easy to make assumptions for others, isn't it? But the assumptions you make say more about you than they do about the people you're talking about. I can tell you this - if my ex had been honest about wanting to have an affair, the marriage wouldn't have failed. I'd have been upset, but we would have dealt with it. I was far more invested in having a life partner than in having someone whose sexuality was enslaved to me.
don´t the last 4 comments kind of prove his point of "I´m not telling monogamous people they are doing wrong, but monogamous people keep telling me I´m doing wrong?" 100 steps are easily seen as such once they are made. the murder thing is just...uhm...after a murder, someone is dead. different thing altogether. a relationship is not a person you "kill", that´s one of the cool things about it. and hey, straight people should be able to take a bit of straight-bashing. for good humor. so everyone can get along. no? I really enjoyed this, obviously, because it brings home the point that it is much more fun to be good at something when you are not risking your life. it´s the same with kids: if they feel secure, they feel free to explore, i.e. grow (not run away). i wouldn´t want my partner to be scared of losing me over 100 little steps. because if my parter is scared of that, they won´t make a single step. and then i will get bored by them, because they never move from my side and check in for every development they consider making. and didn´t i fall in love with their souvereignity, that promised me refuge if i ever lost mine?
I agree. I think if many of the commenters here were kinder and more honest they would simply say: "I have religious and moral views that differ from the speaker's points." But, most Americans are Puritans at heart so they must rage, fume, and moralize for everyone around them
Since an early age I always knew monogamy didn't sound right in my ears. It's just something that does not make sense in my head FOR ME. This was a brilliant speech and there is a lot of information here that even monogamous people need to listen. There isn't a formula on happiness or healthy relationships
I think everyone should hear a presentation like this at least once in life, to know of all the possibilities out there...! In my opinion, monogamy still carries a strong association with fidelity and trust. When someone breaks the monogamy glass ceiling, everything falls apart because the counterpart now believes that all trust has gone away with the shards... If people saw monogamy just as a reference, ideal, or option, maybe the occasional flirt or escapade wouldn't have the same impact on relationships.
@@@jrg305 i wonder the same. He was pretty thin in most of the videos and pictures i saw of him up until a few years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if it was natural, but i still wonder.
@@jrg305 His husband is smoking hot! They're both handsome, but find a photo of his husband. Even more is that they are both incredibly sweet men! I remember when I first saw them years ago he was more slender, but Dan and I are the same age, and they are both trying to remain healthy and fit.
I think all the successful monogamous people prove it patently untrue that monogamy is an impossible standard. What is an *unfair* standard is reading a partner's mind about what makes them insecure, or even being made personally responsible for those feelings to a point of taking things from you when really it gives nothing truly good to your partner for you to forego them. The competition behind it is not only irrational and socio-emotionally unhealthy, but likely perpetuated by the rampant slew of abusers in perhaps any society that there has ever been.. by which i don't mean people who mess up toward each other like we all do, but people who deliberately structure their relationships to gain as much control as they want over others without giving the same control over their self back in return. These split standards are unfair as well, and they can reign in either monogamous or polyamorous relationships. It's a deep concern of mine that by fluffing relationships up with too many differing rules because of nonplatonic engagement, the basic picture of how people are treating one another is often lost and unfortunately excused. .. I think Loving attitude & treatment is also unfortunately taken for granted, in the same mental move that fails to shoot for it clearly. .. Now, i hope that that doesn't read as being about some sexist perception that women are irrational or men are closed off, because thinking justly is wise no matter who you are, as is exchanging empathy and revelation with people who show their selves to intend to sacrifice their egos around everyone and to caringly team with you. (.. and who show no red flags of ulterior motivations or pretention. .. and not too many yellow flags...)
Sure, if you're dealing with denotation and ignoring that he was talking generally about monogamy. He did not say there has never been a monogamous couple and he didn't mean that either. However, if we're going to split hairs: you are making the assumption that there is a monogamous couple in existence. But you have no proof of that. People lie. People also don't share their secrets, probably, especially, not to you. Also even if you, anna neumann, have never cheated, you really have no way to know with certainty that your partner hasn't cheated on you. What's interesting is that much of what you're saying is what Dan was talking about: respect and honesty. So why are you positing it as an opposing argument? What is not that interesting is that you comment on one topic and move abruptly to another in a poorly considered ramble. That sort of inattention to detail might be what's holding you back from accepting things you seem to already know and from understanding that you "deep concerns" are not rational but fearful. Good luck to you.
There's Dan, and then there's the savage in the comments. He was invited to teach you what he's learned over 26 years of experience having people ask him for advice. We can either learn from him or just nod politely. There are some suggestions that are complete paradigm shifts, but it gives perspective and trigger thought.
> He was invited to teach you what he's learned over 26 years of experience having people ask him for advice. There are lots of people who have decades of experience. The problem is that everyone is bringing a bias, and why should we accept Dan's bias above anyone else's? > We can either learn from him or just nod politely. Why can't we disagree? It seems like an awful injustice against free debate to tell people that they only have two choices: agree or stay silent.
I am borderline misanthrope. So, one person for me is just fine. Most people turn me off right off the bat. I don't think it's the cheating once part that makes for divorce. It's likely that the partner who cheated shows no remorse, and expects trust to be given rather than earned. If there is no trust, no relationship can work. The devil is in the details so to speak.
I suspect that there is an inclination to be monogamous in our genes, with some people being more monogamous than others. Some men and women want and need monogamy, some don't and there is a spectrum in between.
your suspects are not supported by scientific literature tho. If you're really interested in the topic, there's a lot of material about genes and sexuality, but also more broadly biological influences on sexuality. It's fascinating stuff, I'd reccommend you to have a look!
@@chiarahinnadanesi7746 science isn't accurate. Statistics are constantly changing. There are 100s of contradictory articles and scientific studies. The truth is even scientists dont know with certainty what makes each and every individual tick. All they can tell us for sure is we are made up of billions of nerves, organs, bacteria, water ect. But the mind is one thing scientists cant look into and know exactly how it ticks. Even people who study the mind are as confounded by how it works almost completely of it's own accord. Fun fact, there are billions of humans on earth. That means billions of different lifestyles, juice, thoughts, views, opinions ect. Too break everyone down into one category is lazy at best.
@@OneInAMillion31 Science might not be accurate, but it's the way we humans got to know almost everyting we do know yet. The truth is that people are more likely to easily dismiss a possibly creative discourse with some vague statement about the limits of research like you did, than actually get to read scientific literature on the topic, wich I find quite pointless. As a neuroscience graduate student, I find dismissing the scientific discourse around the mind and/or more specifically on sexual orientation with "even researchers are confused" as naive at best, if not blatantly ignorant.
No, that inclination is not in our genes. Just the opposite, in fact. The stats Dan quoted are correct. 50% of people, men AND women, in "monogamous" relationships are in fact NOT monogamous. A particular person may have no trouble staying with one partner, but it is not a species-wide trait. If it were, there would be no cheating ever, and we would be like wolves, mating for life. We're not, as both science and history have shown us.
Monogamy is great. I love the idea of being loyal to one person. They are the only one I have to make happy :) However, this doesn’t mean I don’t have wandering eyes or think others are cute. I control myself and stay away from situations that can put my commitment at risk, but I don’t deny my instincts. If you have NEVER EVER had any thoughts of cheating, then I can see why this may be too difficult to sympathize with, but I think that monogamy is a commitment, it’s not a gene. Its not auto pilot. It’s hard work. Marriage is hard work. And fighting your instincts is hard work. So to make it as easy as possible, have open and honest communication with people and discuss your commitment to monogamy and what you think the fair consequences of breaking that commitment will be. And be open and real so you don’t waste your time or hurt yourself. For example. If you start of a relationship with a tiny lie like “I love scary movies” because they love them, and then you start watching scary movies and you admit you just wanted to be liked, that’s so disappointing. It’s easy to love and romanticize the idea of Monogomy. But some people “love it” way more than others. So just be careful. If you’re a die hard monogamist and never feel tempted by others, then don’t date someone with a cheating history, or someone whose always checking other people out. Unless you can look past it. Set your boundaries or Compromise so you don’t waste your time (or theirs) I think that it’s time to own that sex has control over so much of our lives. I’m tired of denying it. I’m not here to say that this is how to justify cheating or that this is an excuse to cheat, but rather that we need to start taking ownership and being real with ourselves and with our partners about the real work required to maintain a monogamous relationship. That’s why it’s important to compromise within reason. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. We are not perfect. Find that person that checks off 64 of your 100 boxes and compromise on the remaining.
Really enjoyed the talk, I mean I was stoned....so obviously I don't remember all of it...but I do feel like he offered a really fresh perspective. When I read peoples comments here, its a good representation of the typical reactions. Some people say this is common sense, some people say it's the worst thing, and then there are the people on the fence, that would maybe forgive a fling but a 1-year affair is a no-no. I think people should include in their sexual orientation definition, their monogamy status. Not what you and your partner have going on atm, but your own personal level of monogamy that's good for you. E.G. Gay and poly, straight and casual only, bi and completely monogamous. Being able to chuck that into normal vocab would be very liberating so people can provide that info to potential partners and even with themselves straight up. If I were to discuss this for example. I would say I'm straight and enjoy the security of full monogamy. Its what makes me feel most loved and most comfortable when I know that my partner is not sleeping with other people and I don't have to feel insecure about him leaving me and my children with someone else. That's what allows me to feel loved fully. Likewise if a bloke really loved the idea of having a wife and family but knew he wasn't going to be able to tie himself down to just one woman, he could openly marry a woman that felt the same or was happy to allow him that indulgence., rather than it creep up on them years into their marriage and he has to be the bad guy and she has to be hurt. If a man approached a woman in a bar and she replied with sorry I'm gay....that would be the end of that, no ones offended, no one says....'I'll try to change that'. They know straight up there's no point in pursuing a relationship because he doesn't have a vagina. What if that same situation happened, they were both straight but the woman was more poly and the man more monogamous yet they don't define that to themselves or each other....this is a scenario that could send your lives and possibly any children you have lives into a tailspin later, when you get to a point where you can't keep pretending. HOw quickly that situation could have been avoided by saying....Hey I'm straight and super monogamous..hey I'm straight but I can love lots of people at once.... that's cool good for you and then both can go on their separate ways.
Hmm. To me "The One" is the person you feel destined to be with. It doesn't mean they will meet all your checkboxes of what you want. You still have to work at any relationship. But there is a big difference between something feeling like destiny and it not feeling that way. So if you are an atheist, fine, but if you have any spiritual beliefs about destiny, then I would say stick with your gut if you feel there is someone else out there for you. That doesn't mean they will be "perfect", just the person who you chose to be with & learn & grow with in this lifetime.
I'm in a open relationship after discussion with my partner and sometimes I have discovered that Asian gay men often still hold strongly the heteronormative monogamous ideas about a partner. Sometimes aggressively told by these people what I'm doing is wrong and my partner must not love me also if he agrees with a open relationship like they know how we work better than ourselves.
The study of human sexuality is arguably not merely 80 years old as stated in the talk, but begins in the late 19th century. Prominent names in sexual research are for examples Havelock Ellis and Magnus Hirschfeld, who both begin empirical inquiries into sexual behavior during the 1890s. Darwin is already talking about "sex" as a topic of scientific inquiry in the 1870s (earlier treatment of what we now call sex was often viewed not as a medical/scientific subject but as a moral, religious, or legal subject - as "sin", "the flesh", part of the rites of marriage, or the privileges of the (male) aristocracy vis a vis their serfs - and so arguably we are not talking about "sex" in the contemporary framing before the 19th century). Thought about gender and sexuality are common enough in the mid to late 19th century that women's rights to control their own reproductive lives and have an equal say in their partnerships with men is one of the central topics of the Paris Commune of 1871. This suggests that the beginnings of contemporary "sexual research" can be located easily 150 years ago. Leondardo da Vinci's "Coition of a Hemisected Man and Woman", is a diagram of sexual intercourse dated 1492. Suggesting we might look for the roots of contemporary sexual research in the Italian Renaissance. Hey, and don't shit (haw-haw) on coprophilia. It is okay to do stuff that doesn't kill anyone or do stuff that is not non-consensual.
I had no idea anything about this. And it was worth watching all the way. Snd its refreshing. At first i didnt know it was going to be geared towards soecific types of relationships. Funnier than expected too at first assessment. Love it so cool. I learnef a lot asca straight women person. I knew a lil but learned more. Cool
This is the most educational, entertaining, HONEST and wise sex talk I have EVER heard. (and I'm pretty old, now!) Thank you. You are helping others.... obviously. Shine on, Dan. :) awesome
With respect, it's more about lying that comes with the territory of cheating. The lies are a greater problem than the cheating. I understood your points re: monogamy, however, gave my ex free reign, and still I was lied to. Talk about having your bread buttered on both sides...
Your comment is far too sensible for most of these strongly opining people to want to comment [as it really threads the needle of the topic I think]. It is difficult to convey to people that it is generally not the "cheating" that they're pissed about [or that simply lying is cheating too for that matter] --- and, naturally, who is anyone to tell another person how they do or don't / should or shouldn't feel? Even still, at the end of the day, having found my self on many different sides of this topic in all varied shades of cheated to cheater across the span of my lifetime, in my own experience, the real struggle was always about trying to coerce ourselves to play on the same team and fight the same fight. And the extent to which we did or didn't address that was what ultimate crossed over from failure to success for me. You know, you find yourself in a nasty game of tit for tat and the stakes just escalate until somebody gets seriously hurt. Yet, It had nothing to do with the infidelity per se. It had to do with emotional reliability of the person I was/am with. Which, I believe, is only to your point...hard to build trust if you can't be honest and yet it is highly unlikely you will be honest UNLESS you trust someone at least a little bit. There's a certain amount of letting go involved and no hard fast rules on how to get from here to there. I think anyone who has the courage to talk openly and with some daring about this subject; rather than tossing out cookie cutter answers for people to gobble up really is heroic in this day and age --- we're all so sensitive and beleaguered at this point!
@@nathanmcclellan8078 Nathan, why are you guessing at what people think about TD's comment based on such scant information? That's a bad habit. That undercurrent of superiority and contempt in your comment is ugly too. (I should know: i'm employing it right now.) I do see a confusion of terms here though, TD. Cheating is lying. There is no "cheating" if the rules allow for sex outside the relationship. I understand your point, but, really, it's not contradictory to Dan's talk, which is seeking to challenge notions long held and used to oppress people and their honest selves. What you're talking about is a problem we all face no matter what cultural norms help construct our lives. And it sucks but you could be glad to be rid of the person. I hope you don't experience it again and I hope you don't end up feeling traumatized about it and bring it into a new relationship, which I have done and it sucked for both of us. But, frankly, people lie (even you), so figure out where you draw the line. And good luck.
The problem I have with cheating isn't that "ooooh he slipped one time and enjoyed touching another woman" it's that he DECIDED to RISK all that we built together and hurting me just for a fuck, just because she happened to be available to him at that moment. So at the moment of his decision, HE was the one flushing our entire life down the drain, and not me, when I judged him for it. How is that love? Plus, If I forgive him, that is basically me telling him and myself: "I allow you to hurt me". How could he respect me after that? How could I respect myself? I am the one who has to live with that from that day on.
Sandra Markovik YOU decide if an outside fuck is going to ruin your relationship. YOU are the one who chooses to either act like a victim or whether to have a grown up conversation with your partner about your relationship. YOU are in control (one would hope) of your life sister. Blaming others & shaming yourself gets no one anywhere. You don’t sound very mature in age, so I hope as you get some life experience you can learn this lessons in time - If your happiness & self respect is simply dependant on the actions of another person, EVERYONE involved is fucked! Good luck to you either way
@@@malechi1973 is this response a joke? The moment your partner decides to cheat is the moment they no longer care about their partner because if they cared they would have had the grown up conversation BEFORE going outside the relationship to cheat.
The presupposition that whenever a person cheats they are making a conscious, rational, though-out decision is not supported by empirical data. As Mr. Savage pointed out at the beginning of this talk, we as human beings do not have as much control of our behavior as we think we do. This is not an excuse for behaviors such as infidelity, it's just a recognition of the realities of our biology, chemistry etc. As he essentially said "sex is much more in control of us" than we are in control of it. And humans will fail and make mistakes. But mistakes should not become the primary defining condition or prism from which to evaluate complex human relationships. As @melachi1973 points out, if the argument is made that someone's infidelity can only be seen as a deliberate choice or rationalization on their part, then it is equally true that the person who was cheated on also has the power to rationalize, and thereby they are making a deliberate choice to let the infidelity destroy the relationship. It's possible both parties were unconsciously looking for excuses to end the relationship, and this is how it played out.
I agree. It's one thing to talk about struggling being attracted to others, or wanting different things in bed, wanting to experiment with someone of a different gender. But covertly going and cheating KNOWING WHAT THE DEAL WAS. Having made specifics vows to your partner? Absolute piece of shit move. Can the relationship be salvaged? Probably. Is it worth salvaging? Personally, no. Because as Dan Savage makes abundantly clear there is no such thing as, "the one." Why would I want to stay in a relationship with that person? Let's just agree to meet other people, right? I'm content meeting someone else on honest terms instead of behind someone's back.
Most of this is great, but Dan's views of infidelity are incredibly misguided and destructive. The comparisons made with the snowboarder and the chef are false equivalencies. Falling down or burning an omelette is not the same as deliberately choosing to share the most intimate side of yourself with another person. When you cheat, you know that you're doing something that will deeply hurt your partner and put your relationship in jeopardy and doing it anyways. You are basically telling your partner that your temporary pleasure is more important than their emotional well-being and the relationship that you have with them. And when you accept that sort of behavior in your partner you are subliminally telling yourself that your feelings don't matter. It's one thing if you have a pre-existing arrangement with your partner, but outright cheating in a monogamous relationship is not acceptable.
FYI....BOTH men AND women release prolactin, serotonin and vasopressin. The difference is that often men achieve orgasm or ejaculation consistently with little to no regard of helping the woman achieve one, so naturally, the man will fall asleep more often. This phenomenon does not make men non-monogamists, but rather selfish. There’s a focus on getting to the end/climax instead of enjoying the sexual encounter and exploring each other.
I think it just depends on the people involved. Some people can get past the deciet, the cheating and some people just can not and if one of the people can not get past it that person should not be forced to accept the unacceptable.
It is not my place to dictate whether a person chooses to live a monogamous or non-monogamous life, that is a personal choice. But to go into the situation with the idea that it is not going to work out seems like a self-defeating stance, guaranteed to sabotage the relationship, rather than a realistic approach. If monogamy is indeed ones goal, it must be something that one strives for, not something that just "happens." Also the person who throws away the shared life, social standing, family, etc. is the person who cheats, not the other was around. They make that choice when they choose to value a sexual encounter over all of the above. Indeed, considering what they stand to loose, it seems a poor choice, especially considering the worst thing about adultery is not the act itself but the profound pain caused by the breach of trust to the relationship. And sometimes this can be insurmountable, sometimes not. True, this is not a factor in a non-monogamous relationship. But I suppose that each has features that the other lacks.
I have been in a 23 year relationship and we haven't cheated on one another. It is achievable, it's not impossible. It takes work. This is my one and only marriage!!
@@EpicWin1337 after much inward introspection and healing, I would forgive him. The trust would have to be rebuilt. It would be a long haul, but it can be done. If it were habitual, I would have to make a choice.
@Brown Moscato without trust, the the relationship has been demolished down to its foundation. I got to know my husband as a friend first...we have been through the death of a child and miscarriage. With all do respect, I know what hes made of. With suffering comes growth, I know his heart!!
TELL THAT!!! YOU TELL IT! that's the idiocy and fallacy of open relationships they give up on monogamy and vilify it because they don't know anything at all about trust. monogamy is so hated because it takes something deeper than many people have and certainly most of the superficial gay world...it takes giving and intimacy to be in a monogamous relatinship. dan savage shits on it because he's just a superficial sex-driven queen. and that's o.k..but shitting on monogamy is not. when you are in love, and also love your mate there aren't any opportunities for others to penetrate that. you're just not interested. being open or cheating has to do with not being able to enjoy the silence with the partner u chose...o.k. i need something new.
The other issue as a woman navigating casual sex is that "what are you into?" doesn't mean shit most of the time. The majority of them would tell me what I wanted to hear and then take off after they got what they wanted
What if there's a 0.73 close by and available? Should you still stay with the 0.64? Because across a lifetime, that difference can mean a whollllle lot.
I was going to say that I didn't think I agreed with the general premise here, that people can't control themselves in the face of strong urges. I was going to say that a person who exercises self control is of higher character and integrity and that people can take responsibility for themselves and aspire to and achieve higher levels of character and integrity by choosing to exercise self control. But you know what, I don't think I actually believe that. I do think it's important to take some time to decide how you really feel about a particular urge you might have, for a while, before you indulge it. But I think maybe I think that a person with a strong, well established addiction (whether the addiction is good or bad is an entirely separate question), can't actually get themselves out of it. I think maybe the reality is that they have to be faced with some kind of external force before they can do it. For example, a drunkard may actually be physically incapable of getting themselves out of their alcohol addiction until their wife says "If I ever see you drunk again, you'll never see me again." Then they might be able to. So I think it may be that rapists aren't actually responsible for raping - we're all responsible for making sure the consequences of raping are severe enough that people who suffer the urge to do it are able to resist that urge.
copy pasted (4:08) - Dan shares the 3 most damaging lies about sex, love, and monogamy he’s learned after 25 years as an advice columnist; (18:13) - What practice you should “steal” from gay relationships to enhance your sex life; (23:43) - The 4 magic words that every couple should have in their vocabulary to improve their romantic relationships; (31:34) - Why humanity needs to rethink monogamy, infidelity, and true commitment.
It's so sad what Dan says about marriage and monogamy and I don't agree with him at all. Marriage is a 100% commitment and it's characterized by loyalty and faithfulness. If you don't want to be loyal and faithful to your partner, why even bother marrying? This just stains marriage. Stay out of it then. Honestly and luckily nobody needs to marry these days. It's okay to stay unmarried. If that’s what people want to do, they should go on and do so. I know, marriage is not for everyone. I get that; however, people who marry give a sacred promise foremost to themselves and to the other person. Based on this, letting in some other person into the marriage, just shows me that these people aren’t too trustworthy. They committed an error and shouldn’t have married in the first place. People like this evoke the notion that they only married out for practical reasons (social and financial security) … but not out of love. And sadly recent studies show that only mere 10% of people seem to know what real love is. I’m not saying that the rest doesn’t love, but it appears that these seem to lack certain characteristics that qualifies them as real love. And that love, according to experts and scientists, is super hard to find. Anyhow, back to the video. Saying that infidelity is likely to happen (and yes, I have read the same studies, too) still doesn't make it right. A person who cheats has to be discarded. And allow me to add, rightly so. Let me explain: Over the past months I've read plenty of articles and studies about love, monogamy, open relationships and (in)fidelity because a friend of mine is going through a tough breakup. And the interesting thing that I found is that in the end it boils down again to: a decision and act of will on the part of the cheater. Just like "rounding up the 6.4" to "the one" status is an act of will and a declaration of love, so is cheating an act of will, too …. But unlike the rounding up, it is a destructive and a declaration of hate or contempt towards oneself and/or the other. Saying that it might happen and that it should be worked out, if it happens, reads to me like a misguided defense of cheating. You see, Dan said, by “rounding up”, we show the other person that they are worth it and special to us. That’s why we make them top priority and want the best for them. We do so because we love that person and want them to grow as a person. A person who truly loves would never want to hurt their significant other, even though I am well aware that some pain is unavoidable. People differ and grow and being together is always also a bit painful, but that pain is needed because it is at the same time a motivator to grow and become the better person for oneself and the partner. Fact is that cheating on someone you love is absolutely opposed to loving someone. And what’s worse is what I gathered from all the different sources: First of all, cheating is a choice. Second of all, studies show that once a cheater, in 66% again a cheater while with the same and/or another partner. That’s a pretty high percentage, if I may add, and just shows that this person is not the right person for you. That means they are not in control of themselves and do not care about your feelings. In my opinion, if you love someone truly, you would never want to hurt them so deeply, devastatingly and damage the trust that the two lovers have built, because every person with feelings knows, that this damage is forever undoable. I admit that some few couples seem to have come out stronger from the experience, but usually that had diverse sets of reasons and overall I couldn’t find a hint that would allow generalizations. Sure, things might look a bit different, if you are in an open relationship. According to a some smaller newer studies open relationships seem to work for a very small percentage of the population. I still don’t think it is healthy given that sex has a very important function: It shows us that we are enough, that we are accepted, that we have a connection. Sleeping with other destabilizes this connection and sleeping with someone else basically means: my partner is not enough. In addition it chips at our souls because though biologically we might want to sleep around, the emotional and psychological benefits of being with one person (plenty of studies exist here, too) outweigh the desire part. So if you are in a monogamous relationship, you can never cheat. Cheating is unforgivable as it causes unfixable damage. Therefore cheating rightly justifies destroying everything material that has been build on that foundation of trust. If there is no trust, there is no foundation. And I wonder, why the heck something should continue to exist once the foundation is gone. It shouldn’t. It can’t. It’s like a building. Take the foundation away and everything will crumble. That’s reality and that’s why infidelity weighs much more gravely and that’s why it is the right thing to let it all go to hell. Only a selfish person of convenience could come up with the master idea that the “materialistic” (in the extended way) would weigh more than the emotional and psychological. It just shows how rotten society is. That’s also why more and more children begin their school lives with mental and emotional abnormal features. They are spoiled with things and get neglected emotionally. I see it everyday at school and it is frightening. But I’m digressing. As a cheater actively and deliberately decides to hurt the other person, his/her love can't be real. Never has been. You can tell if someone is capable of true love by finding out if they have cheated. I’m not saying that they might not have changed, but in my 40 years on this planet I have to admit that I have hardly seen people change that much. And if you love someone for real, you can't really crave anyone else except your partner. It's 11 years in a marriage for me now and sure, I fantasize about other guys, too, that's normal, but I would never ever even let those guys into our bed for even a night because in the end, when I'm with my husband, I forget everything else and all the others don't matter. It's just him and I. It is such a feeling of beauty that I cannot even find the words to describe it. If your partner cheats, he invalidates everything you've built. The trust is damaged. The wounds will scar up eventually, but they will never fully heal. Doing this much harm to a person the cheater supposedly loves and doing that much psychological and emotional harm can only know one answer: Let them go. They don’t deserve your love. Plus, whoever weighs materialistic things against the emotional and psychological harm, has not understood at all, what sex is good for in the first place. It is there to show the other person that they are accepted just the way they are, that they are safe and that can be who they are. Having sex with someone is the most intimate way to say that your "6.4" is all I need. Giving sex to a stranger therefore just means that you are indifferent to your partner. He can be substituted for any other person. But then again that is not love.
And that is why marriages fail. Is that inflated sense of honor more important than a marriage that works, a marriage that is flexible and takes human nature into account? Really? If so, I'm glad I'm not married to you. You sound like a grasping, unforgiving person I'd never want to be around, let alone chained to for life.
The only thing marriage is for everyone is a legal agreement. Any other meaning a marriage has to a person is what they give it themselves and exists in their minds, not as a universal truth. If you, for religious reasons or otherwise, think of marriage as a sacred promise, that's fine (and you'd better make damn sure the person you're marrying shares your idea). As for cheating, yes, it's awful. Cheating by definition is going against the rules, in this case, the rules of a relationship. But if *your* set of rules, the set you discuss before committing to a relationship, doesn't forbid having sex with other people, it's not cheating. The point clearly made in the video is that communication is key. If you haven't discussed the rules, I do think it's possible to have that conversation only after the harm is done but that obviously makes it harder. The point is that monogamy might not be as easily defined to all people as it sounds.
@@sharo8760 I have to disagree with you because reducing marriage to merely a legal agreement is ignoring the realities of society. It's true that it was once a legal agreement only but reading books about marriage today shows that marriage is much more than what you claim it to be. Before people marry, quite many actually talk to some representative at a church. They get their blessings there. If the sacred part weren't true, then I do not see why still such large numbers of people even bother marrying at a church. That is no mendatory part. The marriage can be concluded at a civil registry. The "it is not sacred" part might be your view, and that's alright. I respect that. However, I hold against it that the numbers of weddings in religious institutions still remain very high. I aslo wonder why you seem to assume that people need to discuss that a marriage is anything else but first and foremost exclusive. That has been the reality for hundreds of years. It's afterall a union of two people. And when the marriage vows have to be repeted by the partners during the ceremony, nobody who listens closely to the vows repeted during the ceremony can actually claim that it is an open setup. It isn't. Even at the civil registry office the formula is integral part of the wedding ceremony and it clearly states that you promise to be loyal and faithful to your spouse. Even if this leaves room for a bit of interpretation, it is by most people understood, as I recently read in a German poll, that marriage is considererd by a vast majority of Germans as an exclusive setup. I'm vrey confident that the numbers are similar in many other countries as well. These are traditional values that don't die out as quickly as maybe some people like to believe. Greetings from Germany Mike
You talk as if you know what "real" love is while leaving out any room for people to be complete idiots at times. Yet if people are worth such perfect devotion as you say, they couldn't possibly BE the idiots we all know they ARE from time to time -- even frequently, maybe. If people were unerring robots they could be trustworthy and reliable like you seem to think yourself so capable of. But what is there to relate with in a robot that never gets it wrong? Sure, I may be able to trust you if you never cheat, but that doesn't mean I can relate with you. And if I can't relate with you, then I cannot love you --- ever. It's okay for you to disagree with Mr. Savage. We're all entitled to an opinion. But I just-so happen to know this man is spot-on in his observations. In my 50 years on this Earth, I've seen a lot of relationships come and go. The ones who inspire me the most are anything but tidy. They are the ones with two whole people taking responsibility for themselves and their own happiness; while at the same time consistently adding more joy to each other's lives simply because they have one another in it. It has something to do with sex and fidelity, yes but not entirely --- in my experience it's INVARIABLY about being emotionally available to each other regardless of how they go about getting their needs met. THAT'S how *i* define "fidelity". But call me wrong if you must...I'm afriad I've got to side with Serai3 and Pauliina Tulenheimo on this one from their varied perspectives. You don't own love; therefore you don't get to declare who does or doesn't "love" anyone else.
@Nathan McClellan Thank you for your contribution and your time. Allow me to put it this way: I trust my 85 year old grandma. She has been through a world war and has seen and experienced her share of life - good and bad. She is very much liked and respected by many people of different ages for her insights on life in general, but especially for her expertise in love matters. She is one of the wisest human beings I know. Allow me to say that to me it suffices to know that her having seen my husband and me interact together on many occasions, she sees that I truly love and care for my husband. As pertaining to your comment: Do I know a lot about love? Well, I know my share but I get that my understanding of love has grown all my life and keeps doing so. I'm still learning and trying to grasp love and what it entails; however, this doesn't mean my personal belief and view is any less or more valid. Your view may differ from mine. The good thing is that this is totally agreeable, from where I stand. Our views will most likely be as different as they are when compared to any other human being. My understanding of love keeps growing and just as in previous times and ages, also today we as humans will keep making experiences that will eventually deepen our understanding. This process can be helped through communication and interaction with great human beings as @Leaf, who has challenged my thoughts and beliefs and expanded my horizon in just a few days. So, to sum it up. I don't own love. No-one does. But just as arrogant as I had been in declaring who or who doesn't love, you are currently equally arrogant declaring that my personal beliefs, feelings and perceptions are less valid than yours. I am not sure whether you can see it, but maybe this can be an invitation to think about it. I would appreciate it. Have a great day and sending my best greetings from Germany, Mike.
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I can take or leave monogamy. What I don't compromise on is the lying about it. The worst kind of partner is the one who demands monogamy and then does not follow through.
Ranger4402 💯💯💯
And Dan's point just flies right over your head.
I agree. Because it can be life-threatening when a partner 'cheats', gets an STI, and shares that with their partner. I would love to hear more about the responsibility that comes with the freedom to make erotic choices. We often behave like our consciousness 'disappears' when it comes to arousal, but that's conditioning. Here's to embracing our the natural maturity journey of our erotic selves.
@chow tt If only!
@chow tt Um, no, chow it, you have been hanging out with some twisted bitches
These are the bullshit Lies I saw from Lyndon LaRouche nut jobs back in the 1980s, because these claims are not substantiated and LaRouche is/was a provocateur, whose unstable fools would claim with their bigoted bulletins while attempting to draw you into his Cult of Extremist Ideals. These tracts were photocopied to the point where they were barely legible, and were part of his followers' set up on a table. They were usually located near various subway entries in NYC, attempting to promote homophobia, THEY FAILED.
These false statements reflect far more on your personal fantasies and repressed sexuality than it is based in fact. Scatological Obsessive Disorders can occur with male or female, and amongst every sexuality, but it is an extremely rare behaviour that I have never personally engaged into this unhealthy addition to anyone's diet, including yours, so please don't come to my door, asking if you could borrow a cup of crap because you ran out this morning. I will kick your sorry arse back to the States.
Now about the Myth that Gay Men "have thousands of partners." If only! Did you watch Dan's discussions about monogamy and the LGBTQI+ Community? As in every type of sexuality there are likely to be some gay men that have engaged in sex with many men. If you ever saw Dan's husband you would probably want to tap that arse, because he's fucking hot. Smoking hot body, and Dan has always been a very handsome man, and they make a very handsome couple. And they have an open relationship, but I would suspect that their extramarital sexual activities are not a never-ending daisy-chain of fucking. They are fathers, they have very busy work schedules, and for a majority of their many years together they have realised that they were comfortable enough in their own sexual and intimate relationships to open theirs up to other sexual trysts, and for swingers there are boundaries and rules that many couples of all sexualities that permits sexual experiences with each other or on their own, and perhaps they would be comfortable about the distinction between sexuality and sensuality/intimacy.There's a difference, and if you don't get it perhaps you can write to Dan in order to help you understand this.
The boundaries probably discuss what they consider permissible and what is not. Judging by Dan and his Husband they probably discuss these moments openly and without judgements, but if you have been writing about sex for 25 years you notice some lessons that have do's and don'ts when it comes to other people.I don't know, and it is none of my business.
I am disabled and single. My disability is genetic, which makes it impossible to pass on to others, but even if I didn't have an ultra-rare disability I am not a man that wants to share what I can do with others.
I also realise that if that day arrives and I get married to my best mate and husband there could possibly be a point where my disabilities are going to diminish my sex drive. I'm on a load of medications that diminishes my sex drive. It's a neurodegenerative, ultra-rare disability that is not always fun.
If I were to be so fortunate to marry a man that I will love forever I need to be comfortable knowing that there will come a point when his sex drive would excel past mine, and I will need to be comfortable in this, because with only 42 other people are diagnosed with my Disability research and the development of a cure is unlikely. I would need to one day be selfless and learn to accept that he might meet someone for the release some sexual tension that I will not be able to accommodate his sexual needs. I want to be on PReP, but I also want to assure that neither one of us passes any STI to the man that I love, and that protectionism would be reciprocated. There will come a point when holding him, being held by him and kissing, touching and connecting with that man that has my complete love and respect for the rest of my days in this life would be a dream come true.
I have had sex once in the past decade. I was engaged when the onset started, and everything went downhill because he was incapable of handling my chronic and incurable disability. Our relationship took a nosedive, and we did things that were not bringing us together, and I know that he was having sex with men, and I let thing get out of hand. His fear of my disability turned his guilt about having sex with other men hit close to home, because both of his parents passed away by the time he was 17, so my decline brought so many emotions flooding back to him, so he came back at me with so much rage, because he felt bad about his increased activity outside of the house. Guilt and anger, dampened by drinking and stupid self-medicating only tore us apart.
I would try to make everything better, which made him angry at me, because he was angry at himself. It has been over a decade now, and he just can't talk to me nor about me to others because he flips his lid about it. I was worried about his rage, as it was beginning to grow into something far more physically abusive, and when he said that we had to move on I didn't realise that he was possibly talking about getting through this impasse. I packed three bags and returned to the UK, because I feared for my Life. If we would have stopped the self-medicating things could have remained better, but I wanted to come home and didn't want to see just how far his anger that came from the loss of his parents, and then watching my descent was just too hard to bear.
I knew that I had to move on in a manner that probably felt as if I was abandoning him, but I was seriously not capable of handling the rage. I took at back-up of our computers and there were photos of him with others. He wrote a note to his best mate, telling him how much I made him sick to look at because "Scary Gary" (for my intelligence) aged 20 years in less than a year and I made him feel sick.Perhaps if we had that discussion about opening the relationship for his sexual needs could have made the ending far less painful for him, but after a lot of pain and tears I forgave him, and I forgave myself.
That was truly heartbreaking, because we were that couple so many thought would last, but we didn't affirm that permission when selflessness needs to come into your relationship. Many of my friends listened to me and have maintained friendships with him. Others are far too angry at him to cross that bridge, because they saw the painful choice that I made out of love.
So making it sound like gay men have thousands of sexual contacts is an exception and rarely occurs. Wilt Chamberlain, an All-Star Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers' Basketball Legend, was rumoured to have shagged over ten thousand women just during his career. Does every straight bloke shag thousands of women? Nope. Perhaps some guy you're friends with had a lot of luck with the ladies, but even he was unlikely to have fucked thousands of people in his Life, and the same can be said about women.
I have friends that are every flavour, and I don't judge. I hope that if you're banging that many people I hope you're making money by working in porn, and if you're doing this you are upfront and honest to your partner, you're using protection, and you stick to the agreed boundaries, because if that partner has been with you for many years you should have the maturity to speak openly to each other, and with respect.
Why? Because when you don't have that discussion, when you open up a box of photos, or you go through your back-up, and you make that discovery of those pictures or videos of that person that you have loved for years. doing things that you didn't discuss, do you think that it will not hurt you? That wound can cut so deep, and you can take it personally.
Take it from my experience in Life. You can't own somebody else's actions in Life, You can only own your own. You can forget to let go of the blame game. It's their penis, vagina, anus, mouth, breasts, toes, hair, legs, back, hands, neck, ears, and fluids. If you don't have that uncomfortable talk, and you're blindsided by your discovery you can lose your ability to live Life to its fullest. Never forget it.
"We are committed and loyal to monogomy to such an extent that we are not committed and disloyal to the people we've married." Powerful words.
My husband and I started at .64. I think we're up to .84 now.
I'm an old lady who LOVES the company of gay men, simply because the equality is genuine, and the communication is more honest! Dan Savage, you're openness is SO refreshing!!!
Savage is not just tremendously educational, compassionate and sophisticated. He is also funny!!!
“If you break up with the honest foot fetishist, you will marry the dishonest necrophiliac”. Brilliant!
The likeliness of either happening is absolutely miniscule though.
@@HenningDiesel Not the point. But I guess you knew that already.
Yeah.
Bad example still.
@PalmerEldritch666
I wouldn't expect necrophiliacs to be particularly honest about their "kink" for legal reasons alone.
Foot fetishism is perfectly legal,readily and anonymously available through the internet and still only eccentric.
The mere number shows it.
Of course,if you consider everything from anal to zoophilia a sexual kink,you might come to the conclusion that lots of people must have a secret sexual perversion they're too ashamed to be honest about.
I,on the other hand,don't believe those invented figures I was taught in school anymore.
Like the "10% of the population is homosexual" one.
I strongly suspect that all those numbers are wildly inflated,and that the sexual behavior of the overwhelming majority of all people across the world is pretty standard and "boring" i.e. occasional,marital penis-in-vagina sex for the purpose of procreation.
So, meeting someone who is honest about an eccentric sexual perversion or dishonest about an illegal,eccentric perversion is still very,very miniscule in my estimation.
I so LOVE what you said about making the world safer for women to be more sexually experimental. The risks and shame that women face are too real and it is long overdue for people - especially for MEN - to speak out against the violence and stigmas. Thank you for saying this!
I felt the same as you when he said that. Women want to have sex, but more than sex, we want to feel safe (emotionally, physically, and healthfully). He hit the nail right on the head!
Female promiscuity is part responsible for eroding the relationship between the sexes in the west. If you want to experiment...there are all kinds of ways to masturbate
@@LipSyncLover sorry our men feel entitled to our bodies here in the grand old u.s of a. But we are allowed to be as sexual as the men here our. 🖕
@@OneInAMillion31 i mean do what you want. The statistics suggest it wont make you happy though but its your funeral not mine. Maybe youll get lucky
@@LipSyncLover my funeral? Okay well didnt realize me defending why our society sucks equals the death of me, but to each their own. I suppose
Thank you for talking about the concept of The One. I grew up in a very religious family. No sex before marriage, find The One, stay together forever. I had a 7 year relationship, that I should've ended after a year, because he was abusive, not sane and we just weren't good for each other. But I stayed. Because he was The One.
When I finally ended it, I realized that something had to be wrong with this concept, but I couldn't quite let go of it. I have a new partner now, but am full of doubts. I am in a relationship that is difficult sometimes and for me the question is always: How difficult means he is not The One? What if The One is out there?
He is definitive not perfect, he doesn't fulfill all of the million standards I have on The One. There's love and empathy, there's really good sex and so much attraction, so much respect for each other. Thank god, I didn't throw this away.
Congrats and my best wishes for you both.
Took my wife and I 12 years to figure most of this out. Great advice over all.
I can't believe I've never heard of you before...so many great points but the part about infidelity was SO spot-on! This is such an important message for people to hear in this day and age; "A gold medalist can fall down, get up and still be a gold medalist--not so with monogamy". If more people could view their relationships in such a pragmatic way, consult their hearts and find room to forgive SOME things, people could be a lot happier. Thank you so much for this talk!
I used to work for New Times Broward Palm Beach and his column was always my favorite part of the magazine. It was always honest and informative, and often provided great relationship and sex advice. I'm glad to see that his column has become syndicated and done so well over the years! He's absolutely right, straight sex would be so different if we could broker and discuss what we each want from the experience together first as foreplay, and if those who chose to commit to monogamous relationships would commit to each other rather than a religious ideal of purity that can ruin their marriage if either slips up. 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
I'm a deviant. In addition to that ( and not because of that) I don't view loyalty as never having sex with another person. My son's father caused me to entirely redefine loyalty 20 years ago. He was the most disloyal human being I've ever known and did not touch another woman while we were together. I don't think. And it doesn't matter because he could never injure me more by simply having an affair. I wish that had been our problem. Now I view emotional fidelity as paramount. Do they protect your weak side. If they know something about you do they throw it in your face to win an argument. Do they talk shit about you to their friends and family. In short do they have your back or not? THAT is what loyalty is about to me. And honesty, don't pretend that someone is the only one if they aren't unless your mutual thing is to kind of pretend you don't know when you do and both ppl r fine with it. I think monogamy can work but you really can't be lazy about it, you have to put a lot of work into each other. Love and care,openness and respect, communication and ADVENTURE! I think we write each other off too soon as knowing all there is to know and then we get bored. But there's always so much more to every person. However it may not be the kind of more that you like, lol, I think that happens a lot. So compatibility is extremely important. But I love this idea of upgrading someone from .64 to 1. That's great advice to remember. Although I'd much rather upgrade then from a .8 or .9.
So you cheated on your son's father?
Well said! Yes,"emotional fidelity" is where it's at, since one of the biggest tools of the covert narcissist is to exploit your weaknesses and we have an epidemic of them around.A mate that simply fucks around on you is so much more preferable then a covert narc is for sure.
You've just said what I've been telling people for years...denying your partner dignity and respect is ALSO "cheating". Thank you for such a thoughtful comment... What I've seen through the years is that infidelity touches the vast majority of relationships at some point in time and of my friends who've dealt with it [that I know of], the ones who spent more time justifying their feelings than attempting to understand their OWN personal piece in how it went awry all got divorced in the end. The ones who shared at least SOME of the culpability for a crappy situation made it through and even went on to thrive. That's not to say that you take responsibility for things you DIDN'T do, but the exact opposite. You take a good hard look at what YOU'VE done or not done that you could have done better. You take responsibility for your self and attempt to understand your partner if you can; which is about that emotional loyalty you speak of. Quite often, the one who "cheats" on their partner is really just the one caught with their hand in the proverbial cookie jar that the other one has been snatching goodies from all along --- only being more stealthy about it. In a good relationship, it's not as much about "who slept with who" as it is -- "are we there for each other?" / "can we rely on each other when the shit hits the fan?"
This is real honest, as a 44 year old single (hetero) male I got a ton out of this video. Thank you for sharing.
Dan understood the difference between the natural human instinct and all those rules and behavior that society has developed during history. Not everyone accepts and tries to deal with it. This is brilliant and let me just say that he is simply the best!
I love you, Dan Savage. Thank you so much for giving so many of us the advice that we need. In these dark times, you continue to bring together a community that I look forward to joining every Tuesday. Again, thank you.
I really loved the dethroning of the. Concept of finding THE 'O N E ' ! It's such a destructive concept, causing so much unnecessary pain and disillusionment.
Dan this is probably one of the most sensible, practical, realistic (and fun) pieces about us humans, our relationships, and our sexuality that I've ever seen. Thanks.
Mr Savage does his own thinking. Not only that, he can substantiate his thoughts and positions with clarity and substance, especially when he says something that jars our existence. I have also questioned "normal" social norms and how people accept these things never having thought about them or chosen them either.
I love his definition of a bathhouse! I was a "volunteer" for years 😋
Little Kiwi .... me too! Though I must note that i paid the bath house to be a volunteer!
can't say a bad thing about this man, surely he has saved lives. opened my mind.
I listen to his podcast every week. I've only seen his head shots. Wow! That bod!
Fantastically said- "one day we'll grow up and sex will have us" !!! Thank you! Brilliant talk
I agree with everything but the monogamy. I don't believe everyone can be or wants to be monogamous but there a few of us who don't find monogamy hard. For myself monogamy isn't hard as long as am with someone whom I am strongly attached to and attracted to.
I don't find monogamy hard either.
And what if that person doesn't find monogamy as "easy" as you find it?
@@Serai3 If they don't, they have to communicate this to the partner and together find their way of dealing with it. If the partner can't deal with monogamy and no viable way can be found, the partner believing in monogamy and living it, has to let the other partner go. Otherwise he/she will suffer only heartache, because that person is clearly not the right partner then.
The right partner would always make the right choice: Your partner above every other possible partner. To love always requires the greatest courage. And this makes real love also the highest form of freedom. Putting it all on one card. The emotional stakes chosen out of free volition ideally cause people to invest themselves completely into the relationship. Then the relationship works best and natual adventures come into being. Like life, love is an adventure, too. Understanding this makes clear why sleeping around with others doesn't do much for the relationship. It is a withdrawal of investment and a break with what love entails. It shows that people seek their adventures outside instead of making them happen between the two partners who are together.
If a person says they can't be monogamous, I as a monogamous person, would advise them to let their partner go. This person doesn't love you.
@@michaellodwich9062 My issue with your line of reasoning is that you are assigning emotional meaning to physical pleasure. I believe, and always have, that sex is something people do to have fun. If anything, the most physical intimacy can confirm is a high(er) level of trust. Love is not a requirement for sexual engagement, and just because a friend, loved one, or spouse decides to have that fun with someone else sometimes doesn't (necessarily) mean they love you any less. Communication about how you define love (apparently by exclusive sexual intimacy) is essential in avoiding heartache on that front, for everyone involved.
@@Vextalf, yes, you are absolutely right. I do assign emotional meaning to physical pleasure because I personally have never slept and would never even consider sleeping with anyone I don't have feelings for. So, yes, love, even if it is just at its beginning, is definitely a requirement for sexual engagement. For me it has never been an option and it keeps puzzling me how people supposedly manage to disconnect these two.
Sleeping with someone is fun, absolutely. We agree here. But it comes with an immeasurable amount of responsibility and that's what way too many people forget.
If you sleep with a person, you are equally responsible for the person you sleep with as you are responsible for yourself. Too often have I seen people thinking sex is just "fun" and when things went wrong, suddenly they weren't too blame for anything. They were too drunk, they didn't mean it, the girl was at fault for not using protection, they had no idea the other could fall in love, they must have gotten the STI from someone else who hasn't told them. Have met plenty of people like this. And what these excuses have all in common is, that all of them are lame excuses and of course they happen too be super convenient, too.
There is a reason why sociologists and psychologist grow increasingly disconcerted about huge amounts of young aged people (20+) unable to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. It is a real problem.
True, who am I, you could ask. Fair enough of a question. I admit that I'm not an expert on these things but I do read a lot and over the past two years I have read hundreds if not thousands of different articles and posts in psychological magazines, self-help guides and forums.
From all this extensive reading and, in addition, talking to friends in successful long-lasting relationships, the result comes out the same: if you want a real and happy long-time relationship (that's what I consider to be the goal) and not just a hookup, emotional meaning and physical pleasure are inseparable and intertwined. That means that any physical or emotional activity outside the partnership will most likely have an effect on the two partners. And I go as far to say that couples that seek sex outside their relationship, are not happy and not even in love.
From the little data on open relationships that is out there, first findings indicate that merely 10% of open relationships last for more than 2 years. And this has a reason because these are very challenging relationships that require absolute commitment, absolute honesty, a very strict and elaborate set of rules and an taking over of extremely high levels of responsibility ... and a very high number of people are, and that's my personal experience, not even capable to take responsibility for their own actions and lives. How the heck do they want to engage in open relationships then. I rather say they should focus on one partner. They have a better fighting chance. Also, all of my friends who tried open relationships, just got hurt because these things are extremely difficult to navigate and most people just don't have the communication skills required for this.
Certainly, I do understand that you see it differently. And this is okay. If two partners decide to open their relationship, that is up to them entirely. However, from where I am standing, this doesn't qualify as love to me. It is certainly - and I concur with you - a confirmation of high trust, but I don't regard it as love.
I am not judging people who want to try it or see open forms as differently. Everyone is entitled to new experiences and their own opinion. That helps us to grow. And that's good. But seeing all the havoc that those relationships wreak all around me, I simply cannot take these seriously. I for myself qualify them as a form of escapism.
Nevertheless, I wanted to thank you for your post. It is actually really well written and very sensitive in its style. I believe that you and I agree on many of the same values, as good communication and trust. This makes you really sympathetic, even if we seem to have a completely different view on physical intimacy
I as a guy do fantasize about other guys occasionally, but I would never even dream to have anyone other in my bed than my husband but not because I define love as "exclusive sexual intimacy". It is because I define love as an adventure that two people undertake together. They help each other grow, they support each other and they sacrifice some things along the way to get the better deal because none can have everything in life. It's also a wisdom that has been passed on for generations. We all have to make choices. Only those who cannot decide, keep seeking.
Please allow me to point out what I believe about love following Pericles's thinking:
Love is absolute happiness because it combines the courage of deciding for one person and thus making visible the absolute freedom we have when we chose to love. It is absolute freedom becuase we have chosen on our own accord and, if love is chosen wisely, it ends the search for someone new and gives complete peace of mind.
I take from it that if a person can't find this peace of mind, they haven't found true love.
I have only one criticism of his analogy concerning monogamy. The chef and the snowboarder didn’t choose to burn the omelet or fall down. There is still a decision being made to cheat. It doesn’t happen in 30 seconds or by accident. No one has fallen down some stairs and got up discovering they cheated. If you want to say that we are not naturally monogamous, I would agree to that. But the gift and curse of a conscious mind is the ability to elevate or depress our consciousness. There are other ways to cheat than just having sex with someone else. The goal shouldn’t be to rationalize weakness, it should be to find better ways to strengthen.
Ummm... As a self trained chef... Yes I did make a choice in burning my food. I choose to either walk away and ignore or set the temp too high or possibly use the wrong tools or incompatible ingredients or not hone my technique without help. Like wise the snowboarder choose not to practice that jump enough or chose to psyche themselves out by focusing on a negative thought or get cocky... Eitherway. Choice brought you into monogamy and also you choose to believe in a fairy tale. Thats his point because science matters, we need to also realistically have kindness when we choose wrong because its inevitable. That is all a mistake is and none of us can be perfect. How we react is the aftermath. In his analogy the reaction to a burnt mistake is still a title of Chef but what youtube plenty of people react violent or angrily (Ramsey) to silly or unfortunate mistakes in the kitchen. The reaction often cause more and unnecessary harm to all parties. How you choose to react is what proceeds not the social expectation but what you do with choices made. Some coaches expect their losing team to be pissed or cut them from the team. Other truely coach. They ask why and what can we do different and is this the right fit for the team or for the individuals. Lastly, your critique like many many maaaaany fail to remember relationships by definition include both/all parties decision making unless you are enslaved. There are choices made by both partners. Two people share a road driving same laws and expectations. Yet, one gets rear ended. Insurance may often blame the driver from behind. Does not excuse the other driver of responsibilities or possibly "weakness" as you say in poor driving habits. But the other driver could've slammed on their brakes or under an influence swerving from their dentist visit or playing road games with the driver trying to do their best. Variation of possibilities is the same romatically. Red flags justified or ignored... Selfish spousal behavior changes... Need for therapy brushed under the rug... Untreated depression thus withdrawing leaving both partners lonely (my experience) thus susceptible to poor decisions, drinking beyond your limit, or my fave pure lack of emotional communication... All can being setting you or your partner up to fail. They made that choice individually but If you're a partnership you should support your partner so they are not in need of seeking fulfillment even in places they regret.
@@relmcmillan Your insightful observations point out the profound complexities of dynamic, human relationships. You are a wise Chef!
@@relmcmillan that was a well written recipe of an answer. Using analogies can be like using bookbinding to sing a duet.
Yup. Dan's analogy was stupid. He could've said, "You could be the world's best commercial airline pilot, but you crash one plane and kill a bunch of people, and suddenly you're not considered the world's best airline pilot". Of course, that analogy wouldn't support his point, so he won't make that analogy.
You actually have no way of deciding your desires and biological drives, you can only choose and rationalize to suppress your desires. Falling off the wagon is a failure of your ability to suppress your natural inklings. That is more like a mistake then a choice.
I was raised by hippy parents. I had no concept of "The One". Now, after 7 years with my wife, I feel she is beyond concept of "The One". She is amazing and I'm extraordinarily lucky. I get why folks should settle for .64, but it is possible to have a partner that exceeds any preconceptions of what a partner could be.
Read savage love yesterday about woman with herpes and he gave such beautiful advice. Dan Savage has contributed to humanity in a good way.
Hear what he says about clogging waterways without giving them spillways? Hear that, Roman Church?
It makes me uncomfortable to think about my partner having sex with others, especially if I’m not around. Maybe it’s social conditioning, but it gives me a horrible sinking feeling to imagine someone I love opening themselves up to someone else in such an intimate way. I just don’t know if I’d be mentally and emotionally strong enough to be okay with it honestly. So maybe I just have some more growing up to do. I’m single and gay af anyways. Lmaooo. But I do agree with being open, honest, and communicative about the almost inevitable possibility that it will happen and how you’ll handle it in a way that will preserve your relationship if you really want to be a life partner with someone.
Don't feel bad. Most people can't share their partners. Me included. And it is alright. It's not healthy anyway causing lots of damage to your heart and soul.
Sex is super intimate and fullfills special functions. It's worth doing some research on it. After some extensive reading, I'm sure you will come to the same understanding that casual sex is bad and that opening a realtionship is a unfortunate decision. Most people can't handle it anyway and the question is: Do you want to reduce yourself to a dick? Then you make yourself replaceable.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a monogamous relationship, you just need a partner with similar values who wants exclusivity.
Michael Lodwich It’s best to understand something thoroughly before writing about it.
When people love each other without demanding to have a stranglehold on the other’s body, they are less likely by far to take the other for granted as a lover and a sovereign person.
Your assertion that opening up a relationship is akin to reducing oneself to a dick is... well... I wanted to write “bizarre,” but I just don’t understand it at all, actually.
After some sanctioned casual sex on the side, one mostly tires & discovers a fwb or two are really nice to have, for health and communication and affection reasons.
Sex within a monogamous long term relationship fulfills a variety of functions. Same for sex outside of that bond. We have enough emotion and attention and lust and degrees of fondness & tenderness for more than one person.
The discomfort we experience when we consider our partner having sex with others has to do with a sense of ownership and possession. The desire for exclusive sexual rights a great way to learn about ego.
You should never ask weather your person is virgin or not people may sin and ask for forgiveness but no one should expose their sins to others that is wrong my religion does not allow this to expose my sin to others not even my spouse should know this if she know this she may feel bad alot of things can happen which is why we should never expose ourselves to others.
"Deviance is the norm" -- awesome
Omg... I'm uber conservative and I totally love you and your thoughtful, insightful and practical advice. So glad to have found you.
Malisia, no problem at all. Thanks as well. We're delighted for the continued support and love.
Savage is a conservative gay.
Just love this man. Handsome, sweet, witty, and smart. Can we clone him?
There's so much deprogramming that has to be done. This was enlightening.
This is programming at its finest. Because it pushes a narrative. Now if the message was "make your own choices, decide for yourself what works for you as an individual. That would be fine and unbiased but you notice how his video has decided 2 sides? It wasn't about being open it was about changing your mind to suit the narrative
@@OneInAMillion31 You clearly didn't get it then. If that is so hard to understand then you and those like you, would never "get it" in the first place. He's talking to the ones that DO.
@@OneInAMillion31 The video favours one side of the monogamy vs open relationship debate. To me this is obviously because monogamy is so ubiquitously accepted as the only acceptable form a "committed" relationship can take... so no wonder anybody who disagrees with that is going to emphasise (and eloquently argue in favour of) the contrary. This isn't programming, as digitatissue said, it's enlightenment.
Just everything! Every conversation I've had and why I stayed single to this but because I came from a staunch purity culture... It ruined my sex life! My relationships! And now I recently decided to be ethically non-monogamous and that means I am forced to communicate with any partner because I also believe in monogamy. 30 yrs of my life! But I've seen it fail no matter how beautifully virtuous, religious/spiritual, academic philosopher, or a "good person" including ministers. So, I asked. I asked questions now for 13 years. This video wraps up everything I have learn and I too respect reasonable monogamy but if I'm true and honest with myself... I turned down a wonderful marriage proposal from a great man who cheated on me and I was mad. I have forgiven but the offer to try again wasn't appealing. Because for me personally monogamy as we practiced it, isn't healthy for me. I appreciate this video!
He is absolutely right on toward the end about monogamy. RIGHT ON!
I remember the foot fetish thing...she lost out big time, OMG getting a foot "treatment" was amazing
I told my boyfriend at the time about this column I read....He didn't have a foot fetish but, he won me over with his exploration of the idea
I actually PLAY the violin so this speech was very complimentary to me! No kidding!
It may be wise for me, in this tough news, to accept my short-comings, deny my heart, and simply have friends.
I appreciate the honesty.
How cool. What an enlightened being. Thank you Dan Savage...
I spent three years with my soulmate before I did something incredibly stupid. During that time, I had no doubts whatsoever, and I was happy almost every day. Talks like these make me believe that the number of people who are incapable of experiencing this kind of love is growing, and that's incredibly sad.
I agree with everything here but the infidelity part. Everything can be shared, including voicing the desire for sex with someone else. Infidelity is an avoidable breach of trust. That's something that can be avoided by telling your partner before you cheat, that you are about to cheat. Hard to do, hard to hear, but better than breaching trust. What happens after that conversation will empower both, and decisions to stay together or allow an affair can be negotiated. Infidelity does not have to be a predictable component of a long-term relationship - desire for others probably is.
I agree. When someone cheats on me I describe it as a form of theft - that person is actually and truly stealing my choice about whether I want to continue with them or not. THAT is what's wrong with cheating. The problem is not the sex, it's the brazen disregard and disrespect for my right to choose what *I* want in the situation. It's just plain greedy to try to keep all the choices for yourself, and it's a horrible thing to do to someone you "care" about. As painful as it is, I'd much rather hear it straight and have a discussion as it offers some opportunity to make my own choices in light of new information.
Well said!
It is only a breach of trust if you make it one. This is not a law of nature. It is something defined by people, and thus can be defined any way they want.
Yeah how'd that work out for you Daniel telling your wife or GF that you want to go screw someone else?? Huh? You do know that MOST women would be out the door! And most men even if they want to cheat for the variety which men crave...many do still love their partners and do not want to leave the relationship. But if you say this to your partner...good luck. They are gonna be out the door!
It's always easy to make assumptions for others, isn't it? But the assumptions you make say more about you than they do about the people you're talking about. I can tell you this - if my ex had been honest about wanting to have an affair, the marriage wouldn't have failed. I'd have been upset, but we would have dealt with it. I was far more invested in having a life partner than in having someone whose sexuality was enslaved to me.
don´t the last 4 comments kind of prove his point of "I´m not telling monogamous people they are doing wrong, but monogamous people keep telling me I´m doing wrong?" 100 steps are easily seen as such once they are made. the murder thing is just...uhm...after a murder, someone is dead. different thing altogether. a relationship is not a person you "kill", that´s one of the cool things about it. and hey, straight people should be able to take a bit of straight-bashing. for good humor. so everyone can get along. no? I really enjoyed this, obviously, because it brings home the point that it is much more fun to be good at something when you are not risking your life. it´s the same with kids: if they feel secure, they feel free to explore, i.e. grow (not run away). i wouldn´t want my partner to be scared of losing me over 100 little steps. because if my parter is scared of that, they won´t make a single step. and then i will get bored by them, because they never move from my side and check in for every development they consider making. and didn´t i fall in love with their souvereignity, that promised me refuge if i ever lost mine?
I agree. I think if many of the commenters here were kinder and more honest they would simply say: "I have religious and moral views that differ from the speaker's points." But, most Americans are Puritans at heart so they must rage, fume, and moralize for everyone around them
@@morph628 Bingo!
This guy is awesome. :) Thank you Dan.
Since an early age I always knew monogamy didn't sound right in my ears.
It's just something that does not make sense in my head FOR ME.
This was a brilliant speech and there is a lot of information here that even monogamous people need to listen.
There isn't a formula on happiness or healthy relationships
Best advice I've heard in a while - not from Dan - but the guy said...
Unconditionally love another as Christ loves you.
Every human being should watch this video, especially before marriage.
This probably the best RUclips video I have seen.
I think everyone should hear a presentation like this at least once in life, to know of all the possibilities out there...!
In my opinion, monogamy still carries a strong association with fidelity and trust. When someone breaks the monogamy glass ceiling, everything falls apart because the counterpart now believes that all trust has gone away with the shards... If people saw monogamy just as a reference, ideal, or option, maybe the occasional flirt or escapade wouldn't have the same impact on relationships.
Dan's got some guns.
Yes, three.
👀❤
Is Dan natural? Looks like some perfect physique at his age...or he has a great trainer or dietitian
@@@jrg305 i wonder the same. He was pretty thin in most of the videos and pictures i saw of him up until a few years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if it was natural, but i still wonder.
@TheBlackGuy fromInterstellar huuusssband
@@jrg305 His husband is smoking hot! They're both handsome, but find a photo of his husband. Even more is that they are both incredibly sweet men! I remember when I first saw them years ago he was more slender, but Dan and I are the same age, and they are both trying to remain healthy and fit.
Where can I find the foot fetish guy?
mapple34 there's a page on Facebook, probably more than one
I was thinking that too. I would so rock the foot fetish. I have talented feet. 😜
Fetlife, perhaps?
@Evil Robin yes. They are pretty. Although currently I need a pedicure...
Thought this was going to suck, but it's actually pretty good. Thanks for the advice, Dan.
same
I think all the successful monogamous people prove it patently untrue that monogamy is an impossible standard. What is an *unfair* standard is reading a partner's mind about what makes them insecure, or even being made personally responsible for those feelings to a point of taking things from you when really it gives nothing truly good to your partner for you to forego them. The competition behind it is not only irrational and socio-emotionally unhealthy, but likely perpetuated by the rampant slew of abusers in perhaps any society that there has ever been.. by which i don't mean people who mess up toward each other like we all do, but people who deliberately structure their relationships to gain as much control as they want over others without giving the same control over their self back in return. These split standards are unfair as well, and they can reign in either monogamous or polyamorous relationships.
It's a deep concern of mine that by fluffing relationships up with too many differing rules because of nonplatonic engagement, the basic picture of how people are treating one another is often lost and unfortunately excused. .. I think Loving attitude & treatment is also unfortunately taken for granted, in the same mental move that fails to shoot for it clearly.
.. Now, i hope that that doesn't read as being about some sexist perception that women are irrational or men are closed off, because thinking justly is wise no matter who you are, as is exchanging empathy and revelation with people who show their selves to intend to sacrifice their egos around everyone and to caringly team with you. (.. and who show no red flags of ulterior motivations or pretention. .. and not too many yellow flags...)
Sure, if you're dealing with denotation and ignoring that he was talking generally about monogamy. He did not say there has never been a monogamous couple and he didn't mean that either. However, if we're going to split hairs: you are making the assumption that there is a monogamous couple in existence. But you have no proof of that. People lie. People also don't share their secrets, probably, especially, not to you. Also even if you, anna neumann, have never cheated, you really have no way to know with certainty that your partner hasn't cheated on you.
What's interesting is that much of what you're saying is what Dan was talking about: respect and honesty. So why are you positing it as an opposing argument?
What is not that interesting is that you comment on one topic and move abruptly to another in a poorly considered ramble. That sort of inattention to detail might be what's holding you back from accepting things you seem to already know and from understanding that you "deep concerns" are not rational but fearful. Good luck to you.
There's Dan, and then there's the savage in the comments. He was invited to teach you what he's learned over 26 years of experience having people ask him for advice. We can either learn from him or just nod politely. There are some suggestions that are complete paradigm shifts, but it gives perspective and trigger thought.
> He was invited to teach you what he's learned over 26 years of experience having people ask him for advice.
There are lots of people who have decades of experience. The problem is that everyone is bringing a bias, and why should we accept Dan's bias above anyone else's?
> We can either learn from him or just nod politely.
Why can't we disagree? It seems like an awful injustice against free debate to tell people that they only have two choices: agree or stay silent.
@@Zen56103 lol. Criticism = triggered? Wtf it's dialogue homie...
I am borderline misanthrope. So, one person for me is just fine. Most people turn me off right off the bat. I don't think it's the cheating once part that makes for divorce. It's likely that the partner who cheated shows no remorse, and expects trust to be given rather than earned. If there is no trust, no relationship can work. The devil is in the details so to speak.
You are right to avoid humans.
Yes too many mouth breathers, open mouth eaters and those who snore...yeck.
I love this quote!! "Make the world safer for women"
I suspect that there is an inclination to be monogamous in our genes, with some people being more monogamous than others. Some men and women want and need monogamy, some don't and there is a spectrum in between.
your suspects are not supported by scientific literature tho.
If you're really interested in the topic, there's a lot of material about genes and sexuality, but also more broadly biological influences on sexuality.
It's fascinating stuff, I'd reccommend you to have a look!
@@chiarahinnadanesi7746 science isn't accurate. Statistics are constantly changing. There are 100s of contradictory articles and scientific studies. The truth is even scientists dont know with certainty what makes each and every individual tick. All they can tell us for sure is we are made up of billions of nerves, organs, bacteria, water ect. But the mind is one thing scientists cant look into and know exactly how it ticks. Even people who study the mind are as confounded by how it works almost completely of it's own accord. Fun fact, there are billions of humans on earth. That means billions of different lifestyles, juice, thoughts, views, opinions ect. Too break everyone down into one category is lazy at best.
@@OneInAMillion31 Science might not be accurate, but it's the way we humans got to know almost everyting we do know yet. The truth is that people are more likely to easily dismiss a possibly creative discourse with some vague statement about the limits of research like you did, than actually get to read scientific literature on the topic, wich I find quite pointless.
As a neuroscience graduate student, I find dismissing the scientific discourse around the mind and/or more specifically on sexual orientation with "even researchers are confused" as naive at best, if not blatantly ignorant.
Finally an intelligent commenter
No, that inclination is not in our genes. Just the opposite, in fact. The stats Dan quoted are correct. 50% of people, men AND women, in "monogamous" relationships are in fact NOT monogamous. A particular person may have no trouble staying with one partner, but it is not a species-wide trait. If it were, there would be no cheating ever, and we would be like wolves, mating for life. We're not, as both science and history have shown us.
Dan's the Man!
Omg I love this guy he is so awesome and totally straight up real good advice and talk
God,,,, this guy is divine!!!! “Round your 6.5 guy up to THE 1 !!!!” So spot on!!!!
Everyone should see this.
"The one is a myth."
This is one of the best videos I have ever watched on RUclips. Not joking! Life changing
Monogamy is great. I love the idea of being loyal to one person. They are the only one I have to make happy :)
However, this doesn’t mean I don’t have wandering eyes or think others are cute. I control myself and stay away from situations that can put my commitment at risk, but I don’t deny my instincts.
If you have NEVER EVER had any thoughts of cheating, then I can see why this may be too difficult to sympathize with, but I think that monogamy is a commitment, it’s not a gene. Its not auto pilot. It’s hard work. Marriage is hard work. And fighting your instincts is hard work. So to make it as easy as possible, have open and honest communication with people and discuss your commitment to monogamy and what you think the fair consequences of breaking that commitment will be. And be open and real so you don’t waste your time or hurt yourself.
For example. If you start of a relationship with a tiny lie like “I love scary movies” because they love them, and then you start watching scary movies and you admit you just wanted to be liked, that’s so disappointing. It’s easy to love and romanticize the idea of Monogomy. But some people “love it” way more than others. So just be careful.
If you’re a die hard monogamist and never feel tempted by others, then don’t date someone with a cheating history, or someone whose always checking other people out. Unless you can look past it. Set your boundaries or Compromise so you don’t waste your time (or theirs)
I think that it’s time to own that sex has control over so much of our lives. I’m tired of denying it.
I’m not here to say that this is how to justify cheating or that this is an excuse to cheat, but rather that we need to start taking ownership and being real with ourselves and with our partners about the real work required to maintain a monogamous relationship.
That’s why it’s important to compromise within reason. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. We are not perfect.
Find that person that checks off 64 of your 100 boxes and compromise on the remaining.
Such great insight and ability to clearly explain the fundamentals.
Really enjoyed the talk, I mean I was stoned....so obviously I don't remember all of it...but I do feel like he offered a really fresh perspective. When I read peoples comments here, its a good representation of the typical reactions. Some people say this is common sense, some people say it's the worst thing, and then there are the people on the fence, that would maybe forgive a fling but a 1-year affair is a no-no.
I think people should include in their sexual orientation definition, their monogamy status. Not what you and your partner have going on atm, but your own personal level of monogamy that's good for you.
E.G. Gay and poly, straight and casual only, bi and completely monogamous. Being able to chuck that into normal vocab would be very liberating so people can provide that info to potential partners and even with themselves straight up.
If I were to discuss this for example. I would say I'm straight and enjoy the security of full monogamy. Its what makes me feel most loved and most comfortable when I know that my partner is not sleeping with other people and I don't have to feel insecure about him leaving me and my children with someone else. That's what allows me to feel loved fully. Likewise if a bloke really loved the idea of having a wife and family but knew he wasn't going to be able to tie himself down to just one woman, he could openly marry a woman that felt the same or was happy to allow him that indulgence., rather than it creep up on them years into their marriage and he has to be the bad guy and she has to be hurt.
If a man approached a woman in a bar and she replied with sorry I'm gay....that would be the end of that, no ones offended, no one says....'I'll try to change that'. They know straight up there's no point in pursuing a relationship because he doesn't have a vagina.
What if that same situation happened, they were both straight but the woman was more poly and the man more monogamous yet they don't define that to themselves or each other....this is a scenario that could send your lives and possibly any children you have lives into a tailspin later, when you get to a point where you can't keep pretending. HOw quickly that situation could have been avoided by saying....Hey I'm straight and super monogamous..hey I'm straight but I can love lots of people at once.... that's cool good for you and then both can go on their separate ways.
Yes, more self awareness, more communication!
When I talk to people its become normal for me to ask them what their opinion on polyamory is so we can get that out the way.
Hmm. To me "The One" is the person you feel destined to be with. It doesn't mean they will meet all your checkboxes of what you want. You still have to work at any relationship. But there is a big difference between something feeling like destiny and it not feeling that way. So if you are an atheist, fine, but if you have any spiritual beliefs about destiny, then I would say stick with your gut if you feel there is someone else out there for you. That doesn't mean they will be "perfect", just the person who you chose to be with & learn & grow with in this lifetime.
I'm in a open relationship after discussion with my partner and sometimes I have discovered that Asian gay men often still hold strongly the heteronormative monogamous ideas about a partner. Sometimes aggressively told by these people what I'm doing is wrong and my partner must not love me also if he agrees with a open relationship like they know how we work better than ourselves.
asian countries are more conservative, so it's harder for them to break out of that conditioning
@@FruityHachi Agreed, Id like to think that eventually it might slowly change however may take a few generations.
You rock, Dan Savage!
The study of human sexuality is arguably not merely 80 years old as stated in the talk, but begins in the late 19th century. Prominent names in sexual research are for examples Havelock Ellis and Magnus Hirschfeld, who both begin empirical inquiries into sexual behavior during the 1890s. Darwin is already talking about "sex" as a topic of scientific inquiry in the 1870s (earlier treatment of what we now call sex was often viewed not as a medical/scientific subject but as a moral, religious, or legal subject - as "sin", "the flesh", part of the rites of marriage, or the privileges of the (male) aristocracy vis a vis their serfs - and so arguably we are not talking about "sex" in the contemporary framing before the 19th century). Thought about gender and sexuality are common enough in the mid to late 19th century that women's rights to control their own reproductive lives and have an equal say in their partnerships with men is one of the central topics of the Paris Commune of 1871. This suggests that the beginnings of contemporary "sexual research" can be located easily 150 years ago. Leondardo da Vinci's "Coition of a Hemisected Man and Woman", is a diagram of sexual intercourse dated 1492. Suggesting we might look for the roots of contemporary sexual research in the Italian Renaissance.
Hey, and don't shit (haw-haw) on coprophilia. It is okay to do stuff that doesn't kill anyone or do stuff that is not non-consensual.
I had no idea anything about this. And it was worth watching all the way. Snd its refreshing. At first i didnt know it was going to be geared towards soecific types of relationships. Funnier than expected too at first assessment. Love it so cool. I learnef a lot asca straight women person. I knew a lil but learned more. Cool
I have never thought about it that way! Very intriguing. Love this guy Dan!
Good Talk. I've read Savage Love in the Village Voice all the time.
This is the most educational, entertaining, HONEST and wise sex talk I have EVER heard. (and I'm pretty old, now!) Thank you. You are helping others.... obviously. Shine on, Dan. :) awesome
Many good things said. But the part of monogamy was to angled and simplified for me to buy into, as a monogamous person, and I really tried.
With respect, it's more about lying that comes with the territory of cheating. The lies are a greater problem than the cheating. I understood your points re: monogamy, however, gave my ex free reign, and still I was lied to. Talk about having your bread buttered on both sides...
Your comment is far too sensible for most of these strongly opining people to want to comment [as it really threads the needle of the topic I think]. It is difficult to convey to people that it is generally not the "cheating" that they're pissed about [or that simply lying is cheating too for that matter] --- and, naturally, who is anyone to tell another person how they do or don't / should or shouldn't feel?
Even still, at the end of the day, having found my self on many different sides of this topic in all varied shades of cheated to cheater across the span of my lifetime, in my own experience, the real struggle was always about trying to coerce ourselves to play on the same team and fight the same fight. And the extent to which we did or didn't address that was what ultimate crossed over from failure to success for me. You know, you find yourself in a nasty game of tit for tat and the stakes just escalate until somebody gets seriously hurt.
Yet, It had nothing to do with the infidelity per se. It had to do with emotional reliability of the person I was/am with. Which, I believe, is only to your point...hard to build trust if you can't be honest and yet it is highly unlikely you will be honest UNLESS you trust someone at least a little bit. There's a certain amount of letting go involved and no hard fast rules on how to get from here to there. I think anyone who has the courage to talk openly and with some daring about this subject; rather than tossing out cookie cutter answers for people to gobble up really is heroic in this day and age --- we're all so sensitive and beleaguered at this point!
@@nathanmcclellan8078 Nathan, why are you guessing at what people think about TD's comment based on such scant information? That's a bad habit. That undercurrent of superiority and contempt in your comment is ugly too. (I should know: i'm employing it right now.)
I do see a confusion of terms here though, TD. Cheating is lying. There is no "cheating" if the rules allow for sex outside the relationship. I understand your point, but, really, it's not contradictory to Dan's talk, which is seeking to challenge notions long held and used to oppress people and their honest selves. What you're talking about is a problem we all face no matter what cultural norms help construct our lives. And it sucks but you could be glad to be rid of the person. I hope you don't experience it again and I hope you don't end up feeling traumatized about it and bring it into a new relationship, which I have done and it sucked for both of us. But, frankly, people lie (even you), so figure out where you draw the line. And good luck.
Can't even saya word. Superb. Mind challenging.
The problem I have with cheating isn't that "ooooh he slipped one time and enjoyed touching another woman" it's that he DECIDED to RISK all that we built together and hurting me just for a fuck, just because she happened to be available to him at that moment. So at the moment of his decision, HE was the one flushing our entire life down the drain, and not me, when I judged him for it. How is that love? Plus, If I forgive him, that is basically me telling him and myself: "I allow you to hurt me". How could he respect me after that? How could I respect myself? I am the one who has to live with that from that day on.
valid point.
Sandra Markovik YOU decide if an outside fuck is going to ruin your relationship. YOU are the one who chooses to either act like a victim or whether to have a grown up conversation with your partner about your relationship. YOU are in control (one would hope) of your life sister. Blaming others & shaming yourself gets no one anywhere. You don’t sound very mature in age, so I hope as you get some life experience you can learn this lessons in time - If your happiness & self respect is simply dependant on the actions of another person, EVERYONE involved is fucked! Good luck to you either way
@@@malechi1973 is this response a joke? The moment your partner decides to cheat is the moment they no longer care about their partner because if they cared they would have had the grown up conversation BEFORE going outside the relationship to cheat.
The presupposition that whenever a person cheats they are making a conscious, rational, though-out decision is not supported by empirical data. As Mr. Savage pointed out at the beginning of this talk, we as human beings do not have as much control of our behavior as we think we do. This is not an excuse for behaviors such as infidelity, it's just a recognition of the realities of our biology, chemistry etc. As he essentially said "sex is much more in control of us" than we are in control of it. And humans will fail and make mistakes. But mistakes should not become the primary defining condition or prism from which to evaluate complex human relationships. As @melachi1973 points out, if the argument is made that someone's infidelity can only be seen as a deliberate choice or rationalization on their part, then it is equally true that the person who was cheated on also has the power to rationalize, and thereby they are making a deliberate choice to let the infidelity destroy the relationship. It's possible both parties were unconsciously looking for excuses to end the relationship, and this is how it played out.
I agree. It's one thing to talk about struggling being attracted to others, or wanting different things in bed, wanting to experiment with someone of a different gender. But covertly going and cheating KNOWING WHAT THE DEAL WAS. Having made specifics vows to your partner? Absolute piece of shit move. Can the relationship be salvaged? Probably. Is it worth salvaging? Personally, no. Because as Dan Savage makes abundantly clear there is no such thing as, "the one." Why would I want to stay in a relationship with that person? Let's just agree to meet other people, right? I'm content meeting someone else on honest terms instead of behind someone's back.
i used to read savage love in the village voice years ago!!! always very very funny....who knew you were/are so cute!!!!
I can respect what he said it makes a lot of sense to me speak truth within reason
Certainly lots to think about
Most of this is great, but Dan's views of infidelity are incredibly misguided and destructive. The comparisons made with the snowboarder and the chef are false equivalencies. Falling down or burning an omelette is not the same as deliberately choosing to share the most intimate side of yourself with another person. When you cheat, you know that you're doing something that will deeply hurt your partner and put your relationship in jeopardy and doing it anyways. You are basically telling your partner that your temporary pleasure is more important than their emotional well-being and the relationship that you have with them. And when you accept that sort of behavior in your partner you are subliminally telling yourself that your feelings don't matter. It's one thing if you have a pre-existing arrangement with your partner, but outright cheating in a monogamous relationship is not acceptable.
FYI....BOTH men AND women release prolactin, serotonin and vasopressin. The difference is that often men achieve orgasm or ejaculation consistently with little to no regard of helping the woman achieve one, so naturally, the man will fall asleep more often. This phenomenon does not make men non-monogamists, but rather selfish. There’s a focus on getting to the end/climax instead of enjoying the sexual encounter and exploring each other.
Dan is a really good speaker.
I think it just depends on the people involved. Some people can get past the deciet, the cheating and some people just can not and if one of the people can not get past it that person should not be forced to accept the unacceptable.
It is not my place to dictate whether a person chooses to live a monogamous or non-monogamous life, that is a personal choice. But to go into the situation with the idea that it is not going to work out seems like a self-defeating stance, guaranteed to sabotage the relationship, rather than a realistic approach. If monogamy is indeed ones goal, it must be something that one strives for, not something that just "happens." Also the person who throws away the shared life, social standing, family, etc. is the person who cheats, not the other was around. They make that choice when they choose to value a sexual encounter over all of the above. Indeed, considering what they stand to loose, it seems a poor choice, especially considering the worst thing about adultery is not the act itself but the profound pain caused by the breach of trust to the relationship. And sometimes this can be insurmountable, sometimes not. True, this is not a factor in a non-monogamous relationship. But I suppose that each has features that the other lacks.
This guy is amazing!
I have been in a 23 year relationship and we haven't cheated on one another. It is achievable, it's not impossible. It takes work. This is my one and only marriage!!
What would you do if you found your partner cheated once?
@@EpicWin1337 after much inward introspection and healing, I would forgive him. The trust would have to be rebuilt. It would be a long haul, but it can be done. If it were habitual, I would have to make a choice.
@Brown Moscato without trust, the the relationship has been demolished down to its foundation. I got to know my husband as a friend first...we have been through the death of a child and miscarriage. With all do respect, I know what hes made of. With suffering comes growth, I know his heart!!
TELL THAT!!! YOU TELL IT! that's the idiocy and fallacy of open relationships they give up on monogamy and vilify it because they don't know anything at all about trust. monogamy is so hated because it takes something deeper than many people have and certainly most of the superficial gay world...it takes giving and intimacy to be in a monogamous relatinship. dan savage shits on it because he's just a superficial sex-driven queen. and that's o.k..but shitting on monogamy is not. when you are in love, and also love your mate there aren't any opportunities for others to penetrate that. you're just not interested. being open or cheating has to do with not being able to enjoy the silence with the partner u chose...o.k. i need something new.
I can't wishing you had said it takes "choice" in lieu of it takes "work" But I salute you if this is what works for you!
Dan is the best !!!
The other issue as a woman navigating casual sex is that "what are you into?" doesn't mean shit most of the time. The majority of them would tell me what I wanted to hear and then take off after they got what they wanted
This dude is so much more jacked than I thought
Huge different perspective. Very though provoking
As a personal trainer, I've Never hooked up with a client. I can't imagine doing that when it is my income and getting that reputation
thank you
27:10 I wish everyone, and especially straight men, would listen to this part. He is dead on!!
What if there's a 0.73 close by and available? Should you still stay with the 0.64? Because across a lifetime, that difference can mean a whollllle lot.
I was going to say that I didn't think I agreed with the general premise here, that people can't control themselves in the face of strong urges. I was going to say that a person who exercises self control is of higher character and integrity and that people can take responsibility for themselves and aspire to and achieve higher levels of character and integrity by choosing to exercise self control.
But you know what, I don't think I actually believe that. I do think it's important to take some time to decide how you really feel about a particular urge you might have, for a while, before you indulge it. But I think maybe I think that a person with a strong, well established addiction (whether the addiction is good or bad is an entirely separate question), can't actually get themselves out of it.
I think maybe the reality is that they have to be faced with some kind of external force before they can do it. For example, a drunkard may actually be physically incapable of getting themselves out of their alcohol addiction until their wife says "If I ever see you drunk again, you'll never see me again." Then they might be able to.
So I think it may be that rapists aren't actually responsible for raping - we're all responsible for making sure the consequences of raping are severe enough that people who suffer the urge to do it are able to resist that urge.
copy pasted
(4:08) - Dan shares the 3 most damaging lies about sex, love, and monogamy he’s learned after 25 years as an advice columnist;
(18:13) - What practice you should “steal” from gay relationships to enhance your sex life;
(23:43) - The 4 magic words that every couple should have in their vocabulary to improve their romantic relationships;
(31:34) - Why humanity needs to rethink monogamy, infidelity, and true commitment.
He’s fabulous 😂
Dan, You've explained sex best of all and I wish everyone would listen to your video. Thank you.
It's so sad what Dan says about marriage and monogamy and I don't agree with him at all. Marriage is a 100% commitment and it's characterized by loyalty and faithfulness. If you don't want to be loyal and faithful to your partner, why even bother marrying? This just stains marriage. Stay out of it then. Honestly and luckily nobody needs to marry these days. It's okay to stay unmarried. If that’s what people want to do, they should go on and do so. I know, marriage is not for everyone. I get that; however, people who marry give a sacred promise foremost to themselves and to the other person. Based on this, letting in some other person into the marriage, just shows me that these people aren’t too trustworthy. They committed an error and shouldn’t have married in the first place. People like this evoke the notion that they only married out for practical reasons (social and financial security) … but not out of love.
And sadly recent studies show that only mere 10% of people seem to know what real love is. I’m not saying that the rest doesn’t love, but it appears that these seem to lack certain characteristics that qualifies them as real love. And that love, according to experts and scientists, is super hard to find.
Anyhow, back to the video. Saying that infidelity is likely to happen (and yes, I have read the same studies, too) still doesn't make it right. A person who cheats has to be discarded. And allow me to add, rightly so. Let me explain:
Over the past months I've read plenty of articles and studies about love, monogamy, open relationships and (in)fidelity because a friend of mine is going through a tough breakup. And the interesting thing that I found is that in the end it boils down again to: a decision and act of will on the part of the cheater. Just like "rounding up the 6.4" to "the one" status is an act of will and a declaration of love, so is cheating an act of will, too …. But unlike the rounding up, it is a destructive and a declaration of hate or contempt towards oneself and/or the other.
Saying that it might happen and that it should be worked out, if it happens, reads to me like a misguided defense of cheating. You see, Dan said, by “rounding up”, we show the other person that they are worth it and special to us. That’s why we make them top priority and want the best for them. We do so because we love that person and want them to grow as a person. A person who truly loves would never want to hurt their significant other, even though I am well aware that some pain is unavoidable. People differ and grow and being together is always also a bit painful, but that pain is needed because it is at the same time a motivator to grow and become the better person for oneself and the partner.
Fact is that cheating on someone you love is absolutely opposed to loving someone.
And what’s worse is what I gathered from all the different sources: First of all, cheating is a choice. Second of all, studies show that once a cheater, in 66% again a cheater while with the same and/or another partner. That’s a pretty high percentage, if I may add, and just shows that this person is not the right person for you. That means they are not in control of themselves and do not care about your feelings.
In my opinion, if you love someone truly, you would never want to hurt them so deeply, devastatingly and damage the trust that the two lovers have built, because every person with feelings knows, that this damage is forever undoable. I admit that some few couples seem to have come out stronger from the experience, but usually that had diverse sets of reasons and overall I couldn’t find a hint that would allow generalizations.
Sure, things might look a bit different, if you are in an open relationship. According to a some smaller newer studies open relationships seem to work for a very small percentage of the population. I still don’t think it is healthy given that sex has a very important function: It shows us that we are enough, that we are accepted, that we have a connection. Sleeping with other destabilizes this connection and sleeping with someone else basically means: my partner is not enough. In addition it chips at our souls because though biologically we might want to sleep around, the emotional and psychological benefits of being with one person (plenty of studies exist here, too) outweigh the desire part.
So if you are in a monogamous relationship, you can never cheat. Cheating is unforgivable as it causes unfixable damage. Therefore cheating rightly justifies destroying everything material that has been build on that foundation of trust. If there is no trust, there is no foundation. And I wonder, why the heck something should continue to exist once the foundation is gone. It shouldn’t. It can’t. It’s like a building. Take the foundation away and everything will crumble. That’s reality and that’s why infidelity weighs much more gravely and that’s why it is the right thing to let it all go to hell. Only a selfish person of convenience could come up with the master idea that the “materialistic” (in the extended way) would weigh more than the emotional and psychological. It just shows how rotten society is. That’s also why more and more children begin their school lives with mental and emotional abnormal features. They are spoiled with things and get neglected emotionally. I see it everyday at school and it is frightening. But I’m digressing.
As a cheater actively and deliberately decides to hurt the other person, his/her love can't be real. Never has been. You can tell if someone is capable of true love by finding out if they have cheated. I’m not saying that they might not have changed, but in my 40 years on this planet I have to admit that I have hardly seen people change that much.
And if you love someone for real, you can't really crave anyone else except your partner.
It's 11 years in a marriage for me now and sure, I fantasize about other guys, too,
that's normal, but I would never ever even let those guys into our bed for even a night because in the end, when I'm with my husband, I forget everything else and all the others don't matter. It's just him and I. It is such a feeling of beauty that I cannot even find the words to describe it.
If your partner cheats, he invalidates everything you've built. The trust is damaged. The wounds will scar up eventually, but they will never fully heal. Doing this much harm to a person the cheater supposedly loves and doing that much psychological and emotional harm can only know one answer:
Let them go. They don’t deserve your love.
Plus, whoever weighs materialistic things against the emotional and psychological harm, has not understood at all, what sex is good for in the first place. It is there to show the other person that they are accepted just the way they are, that they are safe and that can be who they are. Having sex with someone is the most intimate way to say that your "6.4" is all I need. Giving sex to a stranger therefore just means that you are indifferent to your partner. He can be substituted for any other person. But then again that is not love.
And that is why marriages fail. Is that inflated sense of honor more important than a marriage that works, a marriage that is flexible and takes human nature into account? Really? If so, I'm glad I'm not married to you. You sound like a grasping, unforgiving person I'd never want to be around, let alone chained to for life.
The only thing marriage is for everyone is a legal agreement. Any other meaning a marriage has to a person is what they give it themselves and exists in their minds, not as a universal truth. If you, for religious reasons or otherwise, think of marriage as a sacred promise, that's fine (and you'd better make damn sure the person you're marrying shares your idea).
As for cheating, yes, it's awful. Cheating by definition is going against the rules, in this case, the rules of a relationship. But if *your* set of rules, the set you discuss before committing to a relationship, doesn't forbid having sex with other people, it's not cheating. The point clearly made in the video is that communication is key.
If you haven't discussed the rules, I do think it's possible to have that conversation only after the harm is done but that obviously makes it harder. The point is that monogamy might not be as easily defined to all people as it sounds.
@@sharo8760 I have to disagree with you because reducing marriage to merely a legal agreement is ignoring the realities of society. It's true that it was once a legal agreement only but reading books about marriage today shows that marriage is much more than what you claim it to be.
Before people marry, quite many actually talk to some representative at a church. They get their blessings there. If the sacred part weren't true, then I do not see why still such large numbers of people even bother marrying at a church. That is no mendatory part. The marriage can be concluded at a civil registry.
The "it is not sacred" part might be your view, and that's alright. I respect that. However, I hold against it that the numbers of weddings in religious institutions still remain very high.
I aslo wonder why you seem to assume that people need to discuss that a marriage is anything else but first and foremost exclusive.
That has been the reality for hundreds of years. It's afterall a union of two people. And when the marriage vows have to be repeted by the partners during the ceremony, nobody who listens closely to the vows repeted during the ceremony can actually claim that it is an open setup. It isn't.
Even at the civil registry office the formula is integral part of the wedding ceremony and it clearly states that you promise to be loyal and faithful to your spouse.
Even if this leaves room for a bit of interpretation, it is by most people understood, as I recently read in a German poll, that marriage is considererd by a vast majority of Germans as an exclusive setup. I'm vrey confident that the numbers are similar in many other countries as well. These are traditional values that don't die out as quickly as maybe some people like to believe.
Greetings from Germany
Mike
You talk as if you know what "real" love is while leaving out any room for people to be complete idiots at times. Yet if people are worth such perfect devotion as you say, they couldn't possibly BE the idiots we all know they ARE from time to time -- even frequently, maybe. If people were unerring robots they could be trustworthy and reliable like you seem to think yourself so capable of. But what is there to relate with in a robot that never gets it wrong? Sure, I may be able to trust you if you never cheat, but that doesn't mean I can relate with you. And if I can't relate with you, then I cannot love you --- ever.
It's okay for you to disagree with Mr. Savage. We're all entitled to an opinion. But I just-so happen to know this man is spot-on in his observations. In my 50 years on this Earth, I've seen a lot of relationships come and go. The ones who inspire me the most are anything but tidy. They are the ones with two whole people taking responsibility for themselves and their own happiness; while at the same time consistently adding more joy to each other's lives simply because they have one another in it. It has something to do with sex and fidelity, yes but not entirely --- in my experience it's INVARIABLY about being emotionally available to each other regardless of how they go about getting their needs met. THAT'S how *i* define "fidelity". But call me wrong if you must...I'm afriad I've got to side with Serai3 and Pauliina Tulenheimo on this one from their varied perspectives. You don't own love; therefore you don't get to declare who does or doesn't "love" anyone else.
@Nathan McClellan Thank you for your contribution and your time.
Allow me to put it this way: I trust my 85 year old grandma. She has been through a world war and has seen and experienced her share of life - good and bad. She is very much liked and respected by many people of different ages for her insights on life in general, but especially for her expertise in love matters. She is one of the wisest human beings I know. Allow me to say that to me it suffices to know that her having seen my husband and me interact together on many occasions, she sees that I truly love and care for my husband.
As pertaining to your comment: Do I know a lot about love? Well, I know my share but I get that my understanding of love has grown all my life and keeps doing so. I'm still learning and trying to grasp love and what it entails; however, this doesn't mean my personal belief and view is any less or more valid. Your view may differ from mine. The good thing is that this is totally agreeable, from where I stand. Our views will most likely be as different as they are when compared to any other human being.
My understanding of love keeps growing and just as in previous times and ages, also today we as humans will keep making experiences that will eventually deepen our understanding. This process can be helped through communication and interaction with great human beings as @Leaf, who has challenged my thoughts and beliefs and expanded my horizon in just a few days.
So, to sum it up. I don't own love. No-one does. But just as arrogant as I had been in declaring who or who doesn't love, you are currently equally arrogant declaring that my personal beliefs, feelings and perceptions are less valid than yours. I am not sure whether you can see it, but maybe this can be an invitation to think about it. I would appreciate it.
Have a great day and sending my best greetings from Germany, Mike.