Doctrine of The Trinity: Dr. Robert Letham
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- Опубликовано: 14 сен 2020
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I was baptised in name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit,Amen!
But that WASNT the 'trinity'! I was baprised ALSO in the same way. You & I only acknowledged that you accepted God the Father as your God. That you recognised Jesus Christ as God's Son who laid down his life for you. You also got baptosed accepting that you now could receive Holy Spirit to help you serve God through Christ. NOTHING in that baptism statement said ANYTHING about 'there are three persons on one God' or even 'God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit'. There was a DIFFERENCE! All NON 'trinitarians' believe in the Father, the Son & the HS. They dont believe 'They all all three one God!
Always good to hear a well versed, responsible and cautious explanation.I know we sometimes prefer a simple and catchy explanation but how can we fully explain in simple terms a relationship that is so complex and unique in nature.
Can't wait for that -)
Great interview .... I learnt a lot
An excellent interview with an excellent theology. Dr. Letham has definitely done a great service to modern Western Protestant Trinitarian theology! I do want to note, however, that during his discussion of OT prototypes of the Trinity, and his evaluation of the text of Genesis 1, Dr. Letham dismisses the view of the Genesis 1 first-person plurals of constituting a dialogue with the heavenly host on the grounds that "nowhere else in the Old Testament or the New are angels ever said to have been participated in the creation of other entities" (54:50). This is quite incorrect, for in certain parallel creation texts this IS in fact outright stated, e.g., Job 38:4, 7 reads: “Where were you at My laying the foundation of the earth? ... when the morning stars were singing together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" So, this does provide a far more cogent understanding of the language of Gen 1, not to the total detriment of a prototypical Trinitarian reading (much else of what Dr. Letham says provides that), but certainly to a non-intertextual reading. This is my only major sticking point, loved the rest of the discussion!
Not *my* will but *your will*
Ever look into the so-called original writing that God so ever loved the world that he gave his unique son?
The interview mentions a key concept in having a right understanding of God - that his character and persons must be defined independently of human beings - his character attributes existed before human beings existed.
But those who adhere to Calvinism inappropriately link the character of God to human beings. How? Before explaining how let me introduce a second key principle in respect of the character of God.
God's primary character attributes exist all the time - they are unchanging. It isn't for example right to say that God is loving unless he gets angry. Or that he is usually just but occasionally merciful. Although it's not my main point let me while on this subject point out that all of God's justice if rightly understood will always be motivated in the same way (for it not to be there would have to be an attribute of his character which changed and therefore caused his motives for justice to change) - this means that for example there isn't both restorative and retributive justice. All of God's justice is motivated by both his holiness and mercy. Even when God seeks vengeance (see Nahum 1) it must be understood consistent with God having only one unchanging character. And the cross shows that the heart of God's justice is to restore. Nothing in scripture stands inconsistent with this. For example capital punishment in the Old Testament isn't proof of the victim's eternal destiny - it should be considered to be God's chosen method at the time of saving as many as possible. And even hell is not inconsistent with a God whose justice is ultimately aimed at restoration - those in hell are not eternally punished for sin - they are punished for eternal sin - since they go on sinning they go on being punished.
With those two things in mind let's define the justice and mercy of God. My best attempt to define God's justice is his commitment to blessing/rewarding that which is in alignment with his nature and to punishing that which is not. And his mercy is his ensuring that his justice always function in a way that is benevolent.
With God's justice and mercy in mind let me ask Calvinists - to what attribute of God do you link his decision to forcefully save a particular group of people? A Calvinist would say that it was God's mercy or grace - or both. But - reiterating - this cannot be correct for two reasons:
- God isn't merciful and gracious some of the time - he is merciful and gracious all the time.
- God's being merciful has absolutely no relationship to human beings.
Therefore we would expect to see God's mercy applied in exactly the same way (which is different to saying that it will always have the same outcome) with all human beings. Don't get me wrong - God's mercy can be LIMITED - bounded by other aspects of his character (and still be perfect) - but the presence of people doesn't provide any reason for it to be applied differently to people.
Therefore if it was possible to conclude from scripture (I don't believe it is) that salvation is God forcefully overriding our wills then the result would be an inability to link such a decision to any character attribute of God. Those who believe in Calvinism don't have a coherent reason to praise God for salvation.
And if it isn't clear from what I have just said I therefore conclude that at the root of Calvinism is an inadequacy of personal experience of God's mercy (as distinct from a book knowledge of it) - either that or too great an esteem for earthly teachers. Why? Calvinists hold their views even as in all things and at all times God is merciful in his dealings with them. And if so what possible reason would there be for his not being so with all people all the time - the only reason to imagine otherwise would be if some were less worthy of mercy - not that it would be right to say that out loud. I believe that's the heart of it. Calvinism - despite its supposedly holier "I couldn't do anything to save myself" exterior - is a paucity of personal experience of the mercy and grace of God - even if its not right to say that is the case with every Calvinist.
Two things, from what I understood. God, according to Calvinism, does not teach that He saves forcefully or overrides the will. And, the second in relation to mercy. I think you answer it. Mercy is limited according to his wisdom. He is always merciful but in some ways is not always merciful. But I am not sure if this answers your question.
If you are a Unitarian,then how do you explain the passages that the shows guest provided as well as the ones that I did.Also,what about John 3.16? Hopefully by watching channels like these your eyes,mind and heart will open to the truth.
What exactly is your question?
One of my favorite books is Robert Letham's "The Holy Trinity".
Nothing holy about it
The Doctrine of the Trinity wasn't finalized and officially established as Christian orthodoxy until the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.
That's a really long time. So generations of Jesus' first followers did not believe in the Trinity and therefore were not saved? I struggle with that idea.
I'm such a sucker for click-bait!
I plan to hear out this video, but, begging your pardon,
do you know any historical list of people who perhaps have gone to seed on another topic of interest; ?
one that ACTUALLY shows up as being part of our stated responsibility as His followers
* ALL the commands of Jesus *
No, I'm serious.
I am not aware of a branch of theology devoted to this.
Are you?
I am wondering what all the Unitarian trolls,including Barney, are doing watching a traditionally Christian channel,creating a stir and being the “devils advocate”(I could not help putting that in,hehehe). You are “outside” the church .If you need wisdom, as it is written in James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom,you should ask God,who gives generously to all without finding fault”. Sorry to hear that some of you say that the Scriptures supporting the Trinity are being taken out of context.What you actually mean is that you want us to accept a “minority report” and “your contextual paradigm”.
Preach
Because the majority of so-called Christians believe that Jesus is God does not necessarily make it so. The majority followed the religious leader of Jesus’ day because they wanted to. But they were wrong. The minority do not necessarily have to be wrong just because they are in the minority. History and the Bible are full of minorities that have eventually been shown to be right. For example, Noah and his family, the prophets prophesying to the faithless Israelites, Jesus, himself when the majority of the Jews did not even listen to him, and those faithful Christians who were persecuted by trinitarians during the Inquisition and the time of the dark ages.
Jesus said at Matthew 7:13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” and in Matthew 7:21: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”- New International Version.
John Sums this up very quickly.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own,b and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
How can Jesus be God when he said that his heavenly Father is the only true God (John 17:3)? How can Jesus be God when he said “the father is greater than I" (John 14:28)? How can Jesus be God when he didn't know everything that his Father did (Mark 13:32)? Do we need to explain away all these verses so that we can believe that Jesus is Almighty God, the Creator. Do we have to reconcile these plain simple texts with that which doesn't make sense? Do we really want to confuse ourselves? Is that what God wants? Are we really Christians if we are required to believe nonsense? Why don't we really find out just what the apostle John was trying to say in John 1:1. Or is that possibly asking too much?
Mystery Trinity says GOD is 3 coequal coeternal persons however the Jewish oracles say God is One and precludes any possibility of a divine plurality aka god scuad.
Jesus is God mainifested in flesh he is the son of God born of a woman born under the law of Moses however he not the Son of God manifested in Flash
So to my understanding the holy spirit is God's literal breath/wind.. spirit in Greek and Hebrew means breath/wind. Also ghost means to breathe out/expire also breath/wind..
@Thomas B Yes God's breath/ wind.. 🌬️ like the day of Pentecost the holy Spirit came upon them like a rushing mighty "wind"
Numbers23:19KJV"God is not a man,that he should lie;neither the son of man,that he should repent..." the Lord JEHOVAH is immutable. Thus if ones God is now or was ever a man. He is not the lord JEHOVAH.
This discussion demonstrates the ahistorical doctrine of the Trinity that the West adopted. Dr. Robert Letham contradicted himself at one point where he said that the Son was eternally begotten and the Spirit is eternally spirated from the Father. Then later Dr. Letham recited the Protestant position which says that the Spirit is eternally spirated from the Father and the Son. Which is the Filioque heresy. Historically Protestantism adopted the Filioque heresy from Catholicism. Filioque is not taught in the Bible. No mention of the double procession of the Spirit in the discussion. You would think that such an important conflict in church history would have been mentioned? Amazing how Protestant theologians avoid these topics.
Dr. Letham at the end of the discussion said we should read Augustine on the Trinity. I agree. Augustine made some big mistakes that affect the Western position on the Trinity. If you read Augustine on the Trinity in book three he discusses the transfiguration of Christ at Mt. Tabor. Augustine said that the light that the apostles saw was a created effect or hologram. Augustine assumed the doctrine of absolute divine simplicity in his interpretation. Augustine was converted from Greek Monism and Dualism as he was a Manichean before his conversion.
Platonism teaches that God is absolutely simple. Plato taught that to make a distinction in God implies separation, division or that God is cut up into parts. Since God is one unity He cannot be divided up because that would mean He is no longer one unity with no distinctions. Absolute simplicity means that the divine essence cannot manifest in creation, time, or space. That which is uncreated cannot enter into the created order. Therefore the light that the apostles saw at Mt.Tabor was a created effect since it could not be the divine essence. As a result of Augustine's interpretation, absolute divine simplicity is eventually dogmatized in the Roman Church. The Protestant Reformers later adopt this dogma as well. All western theology is conditioned on the paradigm of absolute divine simplicity.
So on the one hand Protestants make a distinction between the three Persons of the Trinity and on the other hand, they affirm absolute divine simplicity. This is the internal problem that no Protestant can logically resolve. The way Protestant scholars deal with this problem is to say that the terms used in scripture that make distinctions about God are notional for our understanding, but in the end, God is absolutely simple. So Protestants make distinctions but they are not real. They are notions. We just have to accept the mystery. Augustine's difficulty in this area of theology stems from his inability to read Greek. He had no access to the Eastern Church Fathers on the trinity. So why is this important?
Absolute divine simplicity conditions all the doctrines of Catholicism and Protestantism. For example, take the lords supper. If your Assemblies of God you believe communion is a memorial or remembrance. If you're a Presbyterian you believe communion is a means of grace. Both positions are based on absolute divine simplicity. Because all your getting is a created effect or created grace. You cannot participate in the divine nature since God cannot be divided. Forensic justification in Protestantism is God declaring you righteous. God by fiat creates grace from the merits of Christ and adds it to your spiritual bank account. Regeneration, saving faith, justification, baptism, and the lord's supper are a created effect or legal status. If all your getting is created declared effects then your theology is based on Nestorianism and Arianism. Created effects cannot save you. Absolute divine simplicity naturally leads to the heresy of Nestorianism and Arianianism.
Orthodoxy is the only way out of this theological quagmire. Orthodoxy rejects the doctrine of absolute divine simplicity. It is not true that to make a distinction in God implies division or that God is divided up. Orthodoxy teaches that one has to make two central distinctions in God. Nature/Person - Essence/Energies. The nature of God is not the same as the Persons of God. The Essence of God is distinct from His Energies or power. Energies are God's outward operations or works. Triadology conditions anthropology as well. Since man is made in God's image, Orthodoxy makes a distinction between human Nature and Person. If I make these distinctions am I cutting you up into pieces? No. Because Nature and Person are enhyposticized into one union or expression. When God said to Adam "in the day you eat you will die", death was the unnatural separation of the Person from nature. This is why Adam,s sin was an unnatural act against NATURE. This is why Christ assumed universal human nature in His incarnation. Human NATURE had to be raised up by divine energies, not created effects. This is why the church taught the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. What you partake of in the Eucharist are the divine uncreated energies that raised Christ from the dead. But the energies are not the essence of God. This is why you have to make these distinctions.
Orthodox Christology states that Christ had two natures human and divine. Christ had two wills human and divine. And Christ had two energies human and divine. Christ receives his human nature from Mary, but His divine Personhood and divine nature are from all eternity. The divine Person of the Son is enhypostocized into a perfect union with Human Nature. The divine will deifies the human will allowing Christ to willingly die. It is not natural for us to will our own death by our own natural human energies. That is why Jesus said, "you do not take my life from me. I give it up willingly". It was the divine will that deified the human will by uncreated energies which are common to divine nature. It was the divine Nature that deified human nature and raised it up. So Orthodoxy stands against the West because it does not believe that we can be saved by created effects and legal states. We have to have a real ontological union with Christ and participate in the divine energies and power that raised Christ from the dead. We are not saved by created effects. That is why Augustine made a big mistake when he said that the light at Mt. Tabor was a created effect. Because that light was uncreated light which is divine energy. The apostles saw that divine light and knew that Jesus was God. Because the uncreated light was not like the light of the sun. But that uncreated light was not the same thing as the essence of God. This is why you have to make a distinction between Essence and Energies. Otherwise, you will end up in Platonism.
Since this text box is limited in space I can't go much deeper. Just remember that if you read church history all the church fathers argue against the Greek Hellenistic conceptions of God. They taught that satan uses pagan philosophy to enslave people to false doctrines. Many people have been condemned for teaching the doctrine of absolute divine simplicity. Origen was condemned as a heretic for this doctrine. I find it interesting that these videos are filled with condemnations against Arianism. These guys don't understand that their own theology is completely Arian and Nestorian. Protestants have a false Triadology and a false Christology. They don't know it. Dr. Letham is just another Protestant theologian trapped in the Augustinian echo chamber. The Orthodox Church still teaches the same doctrines they taught two thousand years ago. When you're ready we have the answer to your false Christianity. Satan does not care if you believe in the Bible. All heretics use the Bible. Satan wants to distort your understanding so that you end up with a false gospel.
Randy, How is salvation by faith alone connected to absolute divine simplicity? Just wondering. I have no knowledge of this subject. Are you saying we are not saved by faith alone?
Thank you for asking. Faith alone is based on the doctrine of Analogia Fide. Analogia Fide is the Protestant doctrine of how we know God. The Protestant Reformers rejected the Roman Catholic doctrine of how we know God. The Catholic view is Analogia Entis which is the analogy of being.
I don't have the room in this text box to explain both views in detail but basically, both positions teach that we can only know God through analogy. The reason we can only know God through analogy is that God is absolutely simple. If God is absolutely simple with no divisions we can have no direct contact with this God. Since no man can have direct contact with this super absolute essence, we can only know God by analogy. In the Protestant view, these analogies are found in scripture alone and the study of these analogies is how we have the assurance of our faith and knowledge of God. Sola Fide is directly connected to Sola Scriptura because these analogies come to us from CREATED forms and symbols on created paper - the Bible. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is also based on absolute divine simplicity because created forms and symbols on created paper are also created effects. The created forms and symbols in the Bible are not God. But the created symbols in the Bible are inspired which is another created effect. So every doctrine in Protestantism is directly connected to absolute simplicity. Protestants won't find analogia fide or sola scriptura in church history before the Reformation. The Orthodox Church apposed the doctrine of absolute simplicity because the Church fathers had a theology based on the Essence/Energy distinction in God. So for them, they already had a doctrine of how they knew God directly. They believed that we know God directly through His uncreated energies and this was to them salvation through deification. You can only be saved if you are in union with Christ and participate in His uncreated life. You cannot be saved by analogies or created effects. So no we are not saved by faith alone. Because analogy is not the way you have a relationship with a divine Person. Knowing God in the Protestant scheme is like saying you only know your wife through analogy. I know that Protestants believe they have a relationship with God. What I'm saying is that their theology can't give them any direct connection to God. If your a Protestant and you understand what I'm saying, then you have to leave the Protestant Church. Protestantism is filled with false theology, false philosophy, and false metaphysics. You would be closer to finding God if you were an atheist.
Protestant theology does not have the doctrine of the Essence/Energy distinction in God. Because absolute divine simplicity does not allow for these distinctions. This philosophical and theological mistake started with Augustine. Protestantism was one of the consequences of this heresy. Absolute divine simplicity is the doctrine of the Monad in Greek Monism. When you take a false Greek doctrine and apply it to the Christian God, and then read this philosophy into the Bible, you end up with both Catholicism and Protestantism. Both are built on absolute simplicity. Both Catholicism and Protestantism are two sides of the same coin.
I could say more but time is important. Thanks for the question.
There is ONE Timless Source *A-Temporal*
That can be/is *TEMPORAL through his Spirit and Word* in *everlasting times* NOT timelessness !
Your Spirit and Word are Your babies !
They proceed from you!
And the Word was personified in *eternity times* and in reality in solar time! Micah 5 proverbs 8, 1 john 1:1-3
The Word incarnate is Sonship with two natures, Divine in Fleah !
Isaiah 55:11, psalm 33:6, 1 John 1:1-3
*Here are bible verses showing that the Father and the Holy Spirit are united in Jesus Christ bodily, which means that there is a Biblical Trinity; The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit united 3 as 1:*
*John 14:10-11*
so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
*John 10:30*
30 *I* and *my Father* are *one.*
*2 Corinthians 4:19*
19 *namely, that God was in Christ* reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their transgressions against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
*Matthew 3:16*
16 When *He* had been baptized, *Jesus* came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and *He* saw *the Spirit of God* descending like a dove and alighting *upon Him.*
*Colossians 2:9*
9 For *in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.*
*Colossians 1:19*
19 For it pleased *the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;*
*1 john 5:7*
7 For there are *three* that bear record in heaven, *the Father* , *the Word* , and *the Holy Ghost* : and *these three are one.*
*Matthew 28:19*
19 Go ye *therefore* , and teach all nations, baptizing them *in the name of the Father* , and of *the Son,* and of *the Holy Ghost:*
*1 Peter 1:2*
2 elect *according to* the foreknowledge of *God the Father* , through sanctification of *the Spirit,* unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of *Jesus Christ* : Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
And also other examples found in the book of Genesis where God describes Himself in the *plural* :
*Genesis 1:26*
26 And *God* said, *let us* make man in *our image*
*Genesis 3:22*
22 And *the Lord God said,* Behold, the man is become as *one of us*
*Genesis 18:1-3*
*Yahweh Appears to Abraham*
18 Then *Yahweh appeared to him* by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, *three men* were standing nearby; he saw, *and he ran from the tent door to meet them,* and *he bowed himself to the earth, 3 and he said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.*
*Isaiah 48:16*
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, *I was there.*
And now the *Lord God and His Spirit*
*Have sent Me.”*
Great presentation, Now how does a Oneness Pentecostal look at this ? If you have these friends, you must know how they think before you talk to them about the trinity. This is what they will say : We believe God is the Father, he created us, Jesus the Son is God, man in flesh, and we believe in the Holy Spirit, the presence, and power of God. If they are 3 persons when you get to heaven your going to see 3 bodies . No they have 3 roles that are necessary for our salvation. ( allow them to explain ) Only a true human could die for our sins and could take our place and shed his blood. So Jesus has to be the Son of God in order to die for our sins, but in order for the Son to be born, no human could that God had to be the Father of that baby born in the womb of a virgin and then salvation is not just because of what happened 2000 years ago. It has to be applied to our lives today. How does that happen God comes to us in his Spirit, so God is not eternally 3 persons named Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But God has operated in our lives as Father, Son, and Spirit for the specific purpose of redeeming us, or saving us from sin . So with that as a background 3 persons but 1 God would be a distortion because it interjects this idea that the nature of God there is some distinction, or separation, or division which is not practical for these reasons, who are we praying to we need to know for sure. Are we praying to 1, or to 3, when we get to heaven who are we going to see 1, are we going to see 3. That makes a difference who is our faith in, and the significance of the name of Jesus, we need to understand because when we pray in Jesus name we expect demons to be cast out ( Acts 19:13 -15 ); ( Mark 16: 17 ); ( Luke 8:26- 39 ); ( Acts 8:9-24 ) , and people to be delivered, and healed ( Matthew 9:2,22 ) ; (Acts 3:6 ; 19:11,12 ); ( Mark 16:18 ) , and receive the Holy Spirit ( John 20:22 ); ( Acts 2:4 ;2:38; 19:2-7 ); ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ). But if the emphasis is on Father, Son, and Holy Spirit then the name of Jesus is not magnified and we don't receive from God what he wants to give us. So there are a lot of practical reasons why we need to know the answer to this question and if there is any message in scripture that God is 1 it's Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear o Israel the Lord your God is 1 Lord . Lord Jesus said it in Mark 12:29 . If there are 3 persons but 1 God and his name is Lord and Jesus is called Lord? What does that make the Father, and Holy Spirit ? Now you can see how you worship 3 Gods, or Lords !
Psalms83:18KJV"That men may know that thou,whose name alone is JEHOVAH,art the most high over all the earth." Note please that there is but one named JEHOVAH. Note also that this one is THE MOST HIGH. Thus if ones God is associated with two equals(e.g the trinitarian Jesus) He is not the Lord JEHOVAH.
@Thomas B yes Thomas ,I do have that honor.
Jesus is God (Acts 7:59).
The 1st 2 who were saved by blood were Adam & Eve , Gen. 1:23 .Since life is in the blood ,Gen. 4:10 , that was the 1st sacrifice implemented until John was baptizing in the River Jordan . John 1:29 says Jesus was walking toward him when John said " Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world ". The only way get into heaven is to have the blood of Jesus applied to your life 1st John 1:7 . How do you get the blood into your life ,1st John 5:7, For 3 that bear witness ,the spirit, the water, & the blood, & these 3 agree in 1 , there altogether in 1. Now I can't show you the spirit it's invisible, & I can't show you the blood from Calvary, but I can show you the water . Water, blood, spirit, the spirit comes to the water , the blood comes to the water , & that's when you get your sins washed away is in the water . Moses told them turn your back on Egypt, that's repentance, put the world behind you . Then he led them to the sea , they had to go through the water to get to the promised land . The name of the sea was the Red Sea, the blood is in the water. There is no other water that can save you but the water with blood in it. How do I get the blood to the water , how do I get the spirit to the water? It's by calling on his name. Peter said be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, And without the shedding of blood there is no remission. So if you get in the water, and they don't call his name, no blood no remission, some preacher takes you out to the river & dips you 3 times, no blood no remission, some one takes you as an infant & sprinkles water on you head no blood no remission, but what about all these people that get baptized father, son, holy ghost no blood no remission . There is none other name under heaven given among men where we must be saved, Acts 4:12, & that name is Jesus. When you call on the name Jesus the spirit comes, the blood comes, & gets in the water, & when you go down in that water there's a cleansing, a washing, & all your sins are washed away in the blood, in the precious blood of Jesus, & that's the only way you can get the blood applied to your life is when you get in that water in the name of Jesus Christ. there is only 1Lord 1 faith, 1 baptism Eph. 4:5 ., & it's the same formular for all denominations !!!
🌅Let me share a testimony of the vision of God I saw that reveals a Light on the Wisdom of God in a mystery concerning God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. 📖 1 Corinthians 2:7 | Acts 2:17 | Numbers 12:6
📜 Within few days after I received the justification of God and the New Birth, the LORD gave me a vision of Himself. While praying in the middle of the morning in that certain day, suddenly I was caught up in a trance, and being in the spirit, I saw myself in Heaven kneeling before God. A typical picture of a man kneeling on his knees with his hands on his breast and bowing down his head. Above in front of me were God the Father and the Lord Jesus who was on His right hand side. There was One at the left of the Father, but I cannot tell you at this momemt. Let it be for an appointed time. All three of them were sitting on their pure white Thrones side by side. They were pure white all together and have shining pure white diamond crowns on their heads. They were in their "shekinah glory" of excellent and majestic purity. Their faces were as the sun shining on its might at noontime of a perfect day, that what I could see only on their faces were a line of their chins. But, it was so obvious that as they looked at me, they were smiling in a great delight. They were in dazzling pure white clothing from neck down to their feet. Then I saw just below them and in between us, the Holy Spirit in the shape of a dove formed out of a shining pure white light spreading its wings just above me. Rays of white light emanates from Him towards me and all around Him. I am also in pure white all the way from head to feet and in pure white clothing. The whole scenario was in pure white that shines. There was a pure white angel who was steadily flying horizontally, rejoicing and blowing a trumpet on the middle right side.
📜 Then God the Father, the One on the left of the Father, and the Lord Jesus raised their right hands one by one towards me and said something, which I cannot tell you at this time.
📜 The place, the Heaven, was so glorious, white and full of peace and harmony. I could feel happiness and joy everywhere. I did not see a tint or spot of any color in the whole scenario of shining pure white.
🕊 I hope this testimony may give light of understanding concerning our God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit being God as "One", but of "separate" persons.
📖 You may refer to the following scriptures that support this revelation and testimony, though there are a lot more in the Bible:
💎 The Lord Jesus Christ "Sitting" on the "Right Hand" of God His Father
📖 Colossians 3:1 | Hebrews 1:1-4, 13 | Hebrews 10:12 | Hebrews 12:2 | Matthew 26:63-64 | Ephesians 1:20 | Hebrews 8:1 | Hebrews 10:10-12 Hebrews 12:2
💎 The LORD God as the "Father" of the Lord Jesus Christ
📖 Ephesians 1:3, 17 | Ephesians 3:14 | Hebrews 1:5, 8 | Hebrews 5:5, 8 | Colossians 1:3
💎 The Lord Jesus Christ "Calling" the "LORD God" His "Father"
📖 Matthew 11:25-27 | Matthew 16:16-17, 27 | Matthew 18:19, 35 | Matthew 24:36 | Matthew 26:29, 39, 42
💎 The LORD God "Calling" the Lord Jesus Christ "His Son"
📖 Matthew 3:17, 17:5 | Hebrews 1:5
💎 The Lord Jesus Christ as the "Son of God"
📖 Matthew 26:63-64 | Matthew 27:54 | Colossians 1:12-19 | Hebrews 1:8 | Hebrews 4:14 | Hebrews 5:5, 8
💎 God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ Being "Two Distinct Persons"
📖 Ephesians 6:23 | Philippians 1:2 | Philippians 2:11 | Colossians 1:2 | 1 Thessalonians 1:1-3 | 1 Thessalonians 3:11 | 2 Thessalonians 1:1-2 | 2 Thessalonians 2:16 | 1 Timothy 1:1-2 | 1 Timothy 5:21 | 1 Timothy 6:13 | 2 Timothy 1:2 | 2 Timothy 4:1 | Titus 1:4 | Titus 2:13 | Philemon 1:3
💎 The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God being a Separate Person of God
📖 Matthew 3:16-17 | Mark 1:10-12 | John 1:32 | Luke 1:35 | John 14:26 | John 15:26 | Acts 2:4 | 1 John 5:7
☝To God be the Glory and Honor alone. May the Blessings, Graces and Peace of the LORD our God be to all who read this testimony. In the Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen. 🙏📖👑🏅🎺✨🕊
Holy Trinity means
Word of God
Son
Holy Spirit
Word is god mentioned in Bible
Word of Son is God
Son is God
Word of God is God
Holy Spirit is fire
Sun is full of fire
Holy Spirit is Sun
Glory of God is Sun
Glory of God is God
Sun is called as father in Bible......
Hence Trinity is One God...... The Son......
Jesus is Allah in Arabic bible
Bible came first then Quran came….
Yahowa is Allah….. Elohim ….. Elahi
In hinduism God is
Brahm Narayan that means Word of God
Word of God is God himself
The way is word of God
Satya Narayan that means God is Truth
God is Truth
The truth is God Jesus
Surya Narayan that means God is Glorified
Lord Surya is Sun
Sun is called as father in Bible
Glory of God is God himself
Sun gives life on Earth
The God is Life
The God is Way Truth and Life as mentioned in Holy Bible
Hence God is one
Father is Son and Holy Spirit
Son is Father and Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit is Son and Father
WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT INSIDE JESUS?
1. He is not the "Lord who gives life" for the simple reason that he does NOT exist, it's an INVENTED GOD, nowhere in the bible.
2. He is not the PARACLETE because JESUS STATES VERY CLEARLY in numerous verses that ONLY THE FATHER IS WITH HIM ("I am not ALONE because the Father is with me"). The Paraclete has never been spotted hanging around during Jesus' life, he will be sent only AFTER Jesus' death.
Thus, neither the "Lord", nor the "Paraclete" is the Holy Spirit inside Jesus.
The ONLY ONE INSIDE JESUS IS THE FATHER, thus HE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Jesus states "GOD IS A SPIRIT" and calls Him sometimes "THE FATHER", sometimes "THE SPIRIT (Holy)". But He is the same one Person.
Jesus states the true God is the Father
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
Jesus asks why his God abandoned him
Matthew 27:46 "At about three o'clock Jesus shouted with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Jesus tells his disciples that he would be going to their God and his God
John 20:17 "Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
In Revelation Jesus states he hadn't found his followers deeds completed in the sight of his God.
Revelation 3:2 "‘Be constantly alert, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God."
Jesus states the one who overcomes he would make a pillar in the temple of his God.
Revelation 3:12 "‘The one who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name."
Jesus is "my God" (John 20:28).
@@kardiognostesministries8150 Go to John 20:17 Jesus states he would be going to his Father and your Father and his God and your God
@@cruzefrank You dodged John 20:28. Try again.
@@kardiognostesministries8150 You dodged Jesus words. Those were Thomas words.
Let's look at John 20:28
John 20:28 "Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
Now we need to step outside our modern perspective of thinking and place ourselves in the ancient times. So the word god had a broader meaning in ancient times. Angels and demons were once thought of as some sort of gods. Kings and some men were viewed as gods. We should also note that in some Hellenistic ruler cults it was common for men who were honored to be elevated to worship as gods.
So the phrase "My Lord and My God" was a common phrase that developed around 81 - 96 CE. The phrase "My Lord and My God" was initially used to address the Roman Emperor Domitian. Which is dominus et deus noster "our Lord and God" or an individual saying this to the emperor would say dominus meus et meus "My Lord and My God."
Examples in History the phrase was used
In the Life of Apollonius the Greek author Philostratus refers to Emperor Domitian as My Lord and My God
Seneca addresses Emperor Nero as My Lord and My God
There have been inscriptions of Emperor Augustus being referred to with the same title
Interesting fact the Book of John was written between 90 - 100 CE just around the time frame the phrase was being used.
Does this prove Jesus is God?
No because in Judaism the Messiah figure is viewed as King of Israel and would later be king of the world. It isn't surprising that pagan groups involved in emperor worship would elevate Jesus to such a status of worship.
Scholars admit when studying ancient text it can be difficult to distinguish between political submission and respect to a ruler and religious worship. Some scholars point out that Thomas was not saying Jesus is God in the modern conventional sense but more so diverting political submission and respect from the Emperor to Jesus.
Problems with using this argument that Jesus is God based on this scripture is in the same chapter Jesus states he is going to his God.
John 20:17 "Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
The question you need to ask is if Jesus is God, why would God claim to have a God?
Remember in Tanakh (Old Testament) God says there is no other god in Isaiah 45:5 and countless other places
We have to look at the context of the book of John. Jesus is pretty clear in his own statement that only the Father is God in John 17:3. No man has seen God in John 6:46. Jesus says what he teaches is not from him but from the one who sent him in John 7:16. John states God sent his son in John 3:16. Jesus says he can do nothing without God in John 5:30. God is greater than Jesus in John 14:28. The author is pretty clear that Jesus isn't God. So it in this sense John 20:28 is more of a political move subverting respect and honor to the emperor. Also keep in mind Jesus in the New Testament is being portrayed as a bear of God's name by revealing God's name (John 17:6) and making God's name known (John 17:26).
In the end it's highly unlikely a Jewish man would say such words to a person. The only true God is YHVH and he said there are no others countless times in Tanakh. In John 20:17 Jesus can't be God because he states he's going to his God.
@@cruzefrank The above is a mess.
When a believer uses the expression "my God" in the Bible it ALWAYS refers to the Almighty.
The Trinity Doctrine is not only confusing, it is illogical and makes no sense. The words of the doctrine say that there are 3 persons, each person is fully God but that they all together make one God that is fully God. In addition to that is the teaching that Jesus, as well as being a member of the Trinity was 100% God and 100% man. We will never understand that which is illogical makes no sense. That which makes no sense is nonsense.
Trinity is not required for soterology, its only required for PENAL substitutional justification.
why isn't it required for soteriology? This sounds a bit confusing to me.
@@betheladiele4684 the other metaphors that explain what JC did through his death to save us, such as giving his life as a ransom, or Christus Victor, where Christ takes death and sin in himself and breaks its power. These schemas do not need the Father and Jesus to both be God only that Jesus is perfect and undefeated by sin. But penal substitution has the Father offering his Son, to pay for the penalty God has imposed on us. Now if Jesus and the God are not the same, then Jesus acts to save us (or shows a greater commitment , gives more,) but God does not, and looks like a tyrant. The trinity solves this problem, explaining how God takes the punishment himself. In my experience solving this problem is the only reason a fully "orthodox" trinity is required in an any systematic theology.
@@timothytrudgen8881 i see what you’re saying. Wouldn’t you say tho that since penal substitution is indeed an explanation of our justification (hence our salvation), then the trinity is required for soteriology? Unless you don’t consider penal substitutionary atonement part of soteriology, then the trinity should hold in soteriology. Pardon me, I have not read extensively on soteriology, but just trying to understand what you’re saying
@@betheladiele4684i dont consider penal substitution a necessary part of soterology its just one explanation of a realty that is beyond or language and understanding, in my view. I think the point of this was that if we want to prove the trinity as necessary doctrine we cant use penal substitution or soterology to do this as there are explainations that dont need it.
@@timothytrudgen8881 ahh okay, that makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying!
A 'doctrine' is NOT a bible teaching! its a HUMAN interpretation OF a bible truth! Paul warned that "Men would arise and speak 'twisted things' to draw the disciples away for them selves, amoung YOU YOUR SELVES" ( Acts 20:28-30) This is exactly what happened!
Hello
The guest refers to God as HE
how many persons is “HE”??
Jesus is the Messiah
The Son of God
The Son of David
The Son of man
The man God has chosen to be his anointed king
The man God will judge the world through
The man God raised from the dead
Jesus will return and rule the nations with believers in the kingdom of God on the earth
Jesus has a God
There is no triune god in scripture
Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
-
Acts 3
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.
14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Notice Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham
Sorry this guy does *not* prove a trinity !
Matthew 28:19 does.
The (trinity) is not only a perverse corrupt idle vain word of confusion not found in the book of the LORD, it is a doctrine of devils and a damnable heresy!
Those who believe in the damnable heresy they call (Trinity) find it hard to understand and almost impossible to preach using words found only in the holy scripture.
And yet the preaching of Jesus as the only wise God and Saviour, the blessed and only Potentate, the everlasting Father, the Almighty can be understood by a child.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
[3] But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
[4] For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Exodus 3:13-14
[13] And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
[14] And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:56-58
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Isaiah 45:21-23
[21] Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. [22] Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Job 13:8-10
[8] Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?
[9] Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?
[10] He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.
John 14:8-9
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 8:24-27
[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[25] Then said they unto him,
Who art thou?
And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
[26] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
[27] They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 20:28-29
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Revelation 1:7-8
[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
1 Timothy 6:14-16
[14] That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
This doctrine is just that a doctrine. How can God the unlimited knowledge being can put in our minds this confusion. You see I am a human and I have no doubt in my mind that my son is my son, and I am his father, not via versa. Also, how if the Trinity concept would be real, and been such of important concept God did not even mentioned the word Trinity on the bible. Also, in the bible you see the phare God the father, but where do you see the phare God the son, or God the Holy Spirit.
If the so. Is identical of the scene of the father, so that means Jesus should it have the same knowledge so why he could not say when asked " when are you coming back". It was a question very simple question, but he said I do not know, no the angels, just the father. So that means that God the father he was able to block that information from Jesus right?
Another point against the Trinity concept that God the Father tells what to do to the Holy Spirit, to Jesus, to Angels and to humans. But no where in the bible you see somebody telling God the father what to do. The have asked him to do something but not commanded him to do things. But God the father always commands.
Romans 3:1-2 Apostle Paul ask a rhetorical question what advantage does the Jew have? Much in every way because chiefly unto them we're committed the Oracles of God. Council of Nicea 325 ad Pontificate Maximus emperor Constantine convened a theological Council to determine who Jesus is(Christology).
Non Jewish theologians commingled the Oracles of God with Greco-Roman philosophy chiefly Plato's logos Doctrine.
Many scholars today assert that the writers of the New Testament the Jewish oracles had no concept of a divine plurality the explicit teaching of the Bible is God is one.
Jesus is the son of God because God calls his conception.
Jesus is Jehovah manifested in flesh.
Jesus is not the Eternal Son of God Jesus is the only begotten son of God.
Jesus was born of a woman born under the law of Moses.
If Jesus pre-existed his birth in Bethlehem who was his mother in heaven(Ishtar) the queen of heaven?
Stick to the Bible Jesus is the son of the Eternal God and he came in flesh.
All water baptisms recorded in the Bible or in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Not one Triune water baptism is that ever recorded in the slogan Father Son Holy Spirit
Winter summer vernal equinox amen lol.
What if the Bible is true and water baptism in Jesus name is for the remission of sins?
See: Acts 2:38,8:16,10:48,19:5,22:16?
Romans 6:4 buried with( him) not them buried with the one Lord faith in that one Lord water baptism in the only saving name that one Lord you don't believe Jesus is Jehovah you will die in your sins.
Oneness the faith of Abraham.
Trinity the faith of Constantine.
David Bernard Oneness of God.
Acts 2:38 covenant.
Orlando Garcia where does it say the word “bible” in the Bible ? Do you believe in the Bible?
The doctrine of the Trinity is not even a doctrine as it is not found anywhere in the bible...Its a Catholic invention adopted by pagan Christians....the fact that God the eternal spirit became a man does not make him two co-equal persons...this is just plain heresy and blasphemy.
No