I am loving his overseer play, now terrans can feel how frustrating its to play vs something like widow mines spam. (though i dont see other people pull this off than rogue).
I've never seen Clem that angry in his entire career... but he said in an interview with French casters that sometimes he hits his keyboard out of rage after a defeat
I watched him rage after Reynor beat him and ruined his win streak. he did exactly like u said he fist pounded his own desk or keyboard like a child. makes sense hes "the kid" he sure acts like one
@@YoureWrongImRightGetOverIt he's kid, bc he hit the desk? At least he's not one of random million envious trolls on the internet, who hate others bc they succeded (btw kinda fitting name to envious random troll)
I think what's more important than not being able to target lurkers is that Terran can't really target the banelings rolling under the overseers w/ marines, marauders, and tanks. That severely undercuts their ability to shoot down banelings that are too close. The best they can do at that point is A move, but there wouldn't be concentrated fire on the banes. What an innovative strategy. Does this mean that Terrans will have to build a number of Thors to do splash dmg on the overseers?
@@calebbryant9973 That's where Oliveira differs from Clem. Oliveira seems to use more mech in the late game against Zerg. Instead of relying on Vikings & backline Ghosts to push out zerg detection, he builds a few Thors to do just that. While we may see some nerfs coming for the Overseers, I'm okay with it as long as they address the ghosts, too.
@@motan7864 Imagine Terrans using Command Centers & other buildings (w/ building armor, of course) to cover for Sky Terran. Extreme late game TvZ w/ 20 BC, 10 CC's, and 10 Factories floating around (SCV under them of course), and zerg can't Neural Parasite, Yoink, and Parasitic Bomb the right targets lolol I can also see Zerg using a few overseers to cover for drop-o-lord w/ a infestors in it, but may take too much APM.
Hi, yesterday, october 8th, byun tried doing thors to counter rogue's swarm of overseers and locusts, at wardii monthly, it was effective to some point, but he couldn't really punish rogue between locusts volleys since his troops would get picked off by ultras and lings whenever he left his bases. A much interisting match, i sugest u watch it
Rogue is now My currently new favourite starcraft player to watch, his overseer spam strat is so entertaining to watch. It looks so dumb, yet efficient at the same time, just spamming the enemies base with changelings, gaining vision everywhere, and counterring those dreaded ghots. I couln't stop laughing when winter whent to clems base at the end of the last round, and there were just changelings chilling everywhere around it. It looked like there were more fake marines thant actual marines. All your bases are belong to us style XD
well the fact that starcraft is still alive nowadays, has a reason xD there are A LOT of strategies people didn't even think of, i honestly thought changeling where totally useless. and see them under a different light now xD you can body block units with enough of them which is already a lot specially for base invasion etc.
Missed the changeling voiceover when they blocked the reinforcements to the main: "Hey guys, you want through here? Why's that? A lurker attack, you say? Well, we were told to hold this position. Jimmeeey, did you hear about any lurker attack? Nah, sorry you cant pass, we got orders. Well somebody should call into headquarters about that lurker attack. But I cant see anything from here. . Five by five, boys, right?"
I really like the idea behind changling charges even more than body blocking overseers. You can see how much extra time the Zerg gets when the Terran takes those 2-3 seconds to manually shoot them all (and then still end up missing a few most of the time). It's almost like having creep off of creep. You get to see your enemy, you slow them down, and by doing so you have more time to react. You can even body block with the changlings if you're lucky.
Clearly you've never been anywhere near master in sc2. All these kids talking about Clem raging after a match seems to just dont get it. You guys raging at your opponent and us raging after a lose is different. We get mad because of how we played. You get mad because you're opponent is being "unfair" in your eyes. Stop projecting man.
This is a really cool new strat. Its too bad the balance council will immediately nerf this into oblivion like every other effective zerg strat, while buffing terran again.
Using Overlords and Engineering Bays to shield units was a thing back when I played competitive SC1 many moons ago. Being only a spectator nowadays, I've always wondered why it's not used now and assumed there were changes that made it unfeasible. Turns out people just forgot it was ever a thing I guess.
Engineering bays? Part of it is it worked so well SC1, because it was like carving hieroglyphs with a spoon, a lot harder to do anything at all In large part, someone would lose if they did it, triply so if the game is decided early but at the same time it needs long term investment, it can't be done all at once (would be better to just attack sooner) (Also zooming in to get a better pov) We're seeing it come up now, give it a while to see what if any counterplay develops
@@PJOZeus giving time for counters to develop is a far better approach for non-exploits than knee-jerk changes, so I hope this gets adequate time to play out.
@@Grellmax It's 50/50, observation vs study If they were just watching then yes a knee jerk reaction would be horrible, But I do think in a deterministic way it's entirely possible to ascertain what reactions may be or whether it needs changing People could belong to either group, and there certainly are observers who cry wolf in that negatively impactful way
more like the game let you swarm them with swarm hosts, then when they nerfed that you could attack your own broodlings to send more broodlings, and now you can currently do this. There's still the strategy of spamming spore/spine crawlers to get around the supply cap.
Rogue has always been the goat and people seem to have forgot that in his absence. Six months back from military and already redefining the ZvT match up that everyone has been stuck in for 3+ years against the reigning world champ.
first the reynor t vs clem z, and now this, i never felt so hydrated than by all these terran tears, and we didn't even get the new maps and balance patch yet (3 more weeks hold on in there crimson court sufferers)
37:22 I love the Brenda gag. I like all the gags actually. Much like I loved the Panda Bear Guy of old tasteless. Ya do a great balance of friendly fun banter with old radio announcer. Dont change much pls.
First game's accidental organization of stopping the first few nyduses with the stuck tanks was pretty funny. I remember seeing a video of someone massing overlords and blotting out the screen while unloading/nydus come up. Always wanted to see something like that, especially in clem vs reynor zvt
Zerg definitely needs to exploit nydus as much as possible. Even multiple networks at the same time to try to overcome the insurmountable advantage that terrans have in firepower and mobility. Clem starts to make rookie mistakes when he simply can't micro himself out of the situation.
@ottoback5375 serral is a pure macro player. Thats why he only plays zerg. He takes almost 0 risks and usually wins because he didn't made a single mistage while his opponents risky play failed. This works because zerg is automatically ahead. He wouldn't have a chance on zerg if it were made into protoss 2.0.
It was nice to see this strategy game #3 come to a conclusion when @Winter gave us an hour long game with the same strategy ending in a mutual draw a few days ago.
@@geuros Less tech investment and resources to counter more time, upgrade diversity and unit cost It's primary counter is a burrowed unit who entirely relies on stealth against a race which has on demand detection anywhere on the map anytime they want it No it's not fine. Might not be the biggest issue, but not fine
I just think it was a bad play in round #3. Clem let the worms happen instead of breaking off units to defend from them. I don't play this game, but as an observer, I can see Zerg is the most flexible yet easiest to cripple. The only way Zerg wins usually is by rapid expansion, generating enough income to throw hundreds of units away. Protoss are the glass cannons with their endgame being air superiority. The Terran are turtles using certain units to damage the enemies economy to reach max upgrades to win. There's a counter to everything, and part of that is the information gathering. This same strategy wouldn't be effective against storm Protoss. I have no skin in the game, just my personal thoughts.
@@coltongropp1465 yeah the one caveat is spellcasters, which is the only reason Zerg doesn’t immediately die every single time (queens) and their only dependable late game (vipers/infestors), as clem showed with Serral trying to quick tech to those late spellcasters just means you take too much attrition to lead, at least from Terran’s best
@@coltongropp1465 Of course it was bad gameplay. But if he did break off units he'd have deficit somewhere else and could have been overrun in front. Clem simply doesn't know how to split his units against that tactic.
At 20:07 where you mention "making your favorite player look like a noob," you should have mentioned that 2021 matchup where he cheesed Serral 4x in a row in TSL 8.
And nydus. You could literally fire 5 worms at the same time. It'd take some serious firepower to kill all of them before one of them is ready yet players have not done it before.
i feel like ravagers never get used to their full potential. the actives always get spammed in the spam spot instead of being spread out for the enemy to micro into
Hopefully. Ghosts only weakness is that it is much slower than stimmed marines and marauders. And even medivacs are too slow. Terran has to start learning some strategy now instead of either turtling or abusing MMM.
The amount of changelings lurkers and nyduses have to be extremely exhausting, even for a player like Clem. I think it's a winning strategy with more practice put in
regarding the first game, how can it be that a map that has 70% terran win rate in pro play is even legal in tournament matches? That sounds ridiculous
You need Liberators to hold the front, while you deal with the nyduses, because those changelings will be everywhere. 1300 in nyduses is a small army's worth. You could be killing nyduses for 15 minutes.
Personally i think Libs could counter that mass overseer strategy quite nicely. They do air aoe damage, so can quickly clear large amounts of overseers, and counter the lurkers too.
So ... who knew that having to constantly cycle your army between the front line and rear line to combat "drops" in your main and constantly being out maneuvered and unable to "hit" your target.
I feel like this strat is mostly a win more strategy, sure you can do it when you are ahead and can invest in tons of overseers but try to do it when the terran has enough ghosts and APM to just snipe endlessly and you'll loose that overseer group very quickly. This last game shows it perfectly, he's got clem pushed back in his base with non stop nydus harass to keep him occupied from using snipes. I do think any spammable unit from spells that starts to influence fights by either blocking or dealing damage like changelings are gonna get nerfed, all those mechanics in the past have been nerfed into the ground, swarmhosts, ravens, broodlords, infestors all had such a mechanic and all got nerfed into oblivion, some so hard the unit is more or less dead, ie swarmhosts and ravens. The list is infested marines, point defense drones, seeker missiles, broodlings, swarmlings and auto turret. Funnily enough 3 of these are from the raven, and the fact the raven is so stunted is the same reason the ghost is so overtuned. While I'd never argue for a ghost nerf alone, having a better late game spread between raven and ghost would be so much better than having a unit that does just about everything by necessity for that said to keep up in the late game.
The point is to force terran to split his units unfavorably by using multiple worms at the same time. This strategy is only for the late game, but doesn't require one to be ahead. Ghosts are immobile, and can't be re-positioned to defend from this. It requires actual strategy to do it.
@@matiashamalainen7965 I'm talking about the 30+ overseers, that seriously requires you to be ahead, that's such in investment it can't be done just on the side.
Something to think about: If the Overseer Cloud Tactic is helping the Lurkers not be sniped I would think I would be better if you put units under the Cloud that Ghosts "Want" to snipe or player wants to focus fire down. For Example you can put Ultras or Infesters under the cloud. Move the Cloud where you want to attack and have Ultras follow Under them and they Can't be sniped well or focused fire well. That is what I think anyway.
Even more so. The music really made this game feel so epic. Even years after playing the game the music will remain giving you goosebumps. It is just so great!
I think you gonna start seeing a lot more nukes if this carries on. Couple a red dots will quickly shake up that lategame strat! Awesome commentating again - love it!!
Oh no! Terran might not be able to just build one unit to dominate at high levels? Get bent, build something besides ghosts. This is good for the game imo- as seeing T just build one unit and turtle makes me just skip forward to see if the next game is more entertaining to watch (even with Winter commentary).
clem prolly just thought: 'oh my gosh they're gonna nerf the shit out of terran and these maps! i better play like trash until the patch and lose in a bunch of meme ways!' lol
In before the meta will evolve to mass liberators, along with this army, which can deal with the lurker sieges and also if there aren't hydras underneath can just kill the clump of overseers. This is sick strategy, but the zerg has such a high army value on the map including the overseers that if they lose it all, it will be GG. But that is the beauty of this game, now there are multifacets and counterplay in the lategame. If they get mass libs, parasitic bomb is strong. Libs cannot kill overseers with hydras underneath etc. This literally breaks the terran lategame winning algorithm with ghost, having top tier macro and micro and slow expansion. Now there are a lot more pathways. Thank god to rogue for doing this, now terran has to go back to the tempo game to break the zerg, which spares us this 1 hour turtlefest games which are just frustrating to watch. Fingers crossed we might even see the muta ling bane return
Maybe do all army move, grab one marine, shift right click any unit that isn't following the move command. Then that marine will get some, or maybe a lot of the changelings.
I haven’t played StarCraft in at minimum two decades. But I’ve watched a few of your vids and you are commenting the hell out of the game. Favorite quote this vid… “ im going to have to adjust my graphics settings if this becomes the new meta.” Keep on keeping on
Hey Rogue, how to counter ghost? In theory? Mass Overseers with changelings can bodyblock the snipes. In reality? Dont fight them and go for the production with a lucky nydus.
Holy crap @ that APM. I remember when the program to measure APM in replays was first released; I forget the guy's name now, but it was really neat to see. BWChart I think. Maybe SC2 and BW are different in that respect, or maybe people have gotten that much faster... I remember I think Chojja having what was considered very high APM, being over 300. Most top players were in the 200s. Or maybe it was measured differently, I dunno.
I wonder if you could do the same with broodlords. Maybe stack them together with overseers or overlords so that ghosts can not target broods. So maybe a strat of hydra Ling bane broodlord could be somewhat alright. Maybe this could work as long as the Thor/Viking count isn’t too high. Well the threat of nydus in the main base wouldn’t be so high. Anyway, I really loved rogues style. So creative on the one hand but so sad on the other that Zerg still lacks a direct counter to the mass ghost strat.
That cloud tactic was something else..... Imagine if he build more from the start and did a roach/ling (cloud) rush!... or he can hover over the other base as well and prevent lift offs!!! or maybe disable some units that were not grouped!... Winter, ...tell him!
For the Overseer Cloud Tactic... I don't think roach/ling will work to well due to the AI Auto targeting the fights like it normally does. If the Overseer Cloud Tactic is helping the Lurkers not be sniped I would think I would be better if you put units under the Cloud that Ghosts "Want" to snipe or player wants to focus fire down. For Example you can put Ultras or Infesters under the cloud. Move the Cloud where you want to attack and have Ultras follow Under them and they Can't be sniped well or focused fire well. That is what I think anyway.
Terran clearly needs to do the same with floating barracks to block ghosts from being seen. I did the same in a wc3 tournament with ancient protectors since you can make infinite amounts of them (zero supply), they started glitching out into each other in circular patterns
while i think about it, i think this would be even more efficient with a few broodlords (like 3) in the pack of flying units. more small creatures sent at the ennemy, overwhelming his APM. Still difficult to snipe in the middle of other units. Other races makes some units in small numbers to complement their army (like a few vikings / oracles / banshees), it's time for the zergs to do the same.
@knowledgeispower3212 and ?? In Thailand 40 baht cab buy 1 meal and yes compare to usd is look so tiny but i guess i just want to support as i can bro 😀
Clem is one of the only terrans i see on the regular with medivac's so used theres like 9 empty especially in the first game. if he just builds the upgrade for energy it could be insane for him in particular.
@@Glass_Half_Full nah, only Korean fanboys are butthurt because Serral is the GOAT, and the only one that is on his level is Clem. Rogue is great, and definitely the best Korean, but not the GOAT. Serral has much more in every single metric, and there was only one to take him out convincingly at his best. Even herO said that almost every Korean pro believes that Serral is the greatest of all time in the game. All your arguments are invalid after that interview.
This is definitely a feature and Terrans that think ghosts are okay deserve to have to put up with this, I'll just be honest, it very obviously exploits the GHOST and ONLY the ghost. Don't wanna deal with it anymore, gonna have to change how the ghost works. I like it, Terran relies way, way too much on one unit and that one unit is insane when compared to other lategame units, think about how niche and often useless ultras, broodlords, motherships, etc. are in comparison to the ghost. It is in a league of it's own and so you may as well get creative and think outside the box for dealing with it. I don't like knowing that these are the lengths required to counter one unit, and neither should anyone else. But hey, Ghosts didn't get changed in the latest patch so, this is here to stay until that thought is unanimous apparently. Your point and click unit will now have it's pointing and clicking directly blocked, enjoy. If only protoss could find a clever way to do the same thing. I think it's also pretty hilarious how far rouge has gone with this, it's not just about the ghost anymore it's about body blocking literally everything that needs to be target fired.
I think Rogue is using Clem's Sensor Towers against him. Changelings do appear on them no ? Untill they transform? Or do they avoid sensor tower detection at all ? I think its using Terran's strategy against them. Really good! Love it !
Rogue reminding us where the legends came from.
Love his creeping back up the leader boards.
I am loving his overseer play, now terrans can feel how frustrating its to play vs something like widow mines spam. (though i dont see other people pull this off than rogue).
omg 28:10 the overseer bodyblocks for the single baneling and clem has to bail, hes really committed to this tactic what a beast
Beautiful catch
omg you're right !
Haha holy shit
Rogue shows us how to truly play Zerg.
THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE BASE
Bro everybody plays that shit with the lurkers sometimes work sometimes not depend how the other reacts
@@eltrolado5764 I think he's more referring to the changeling nidas spam
Winter: Clem has solved Starcraft 2.
Rogue:
had same thoughts haha
I've never seen Clem that angry in his entire career... but he said in an interview with French casters that sometimes he hits his keyboard out of rage after a defeat
I watched him rage after Reynor beat him and ruined his win streak. he did exactly like u said he fist pounded his own desk or keyboard like a child. makes sense hes "the kid" he sure acts like one
@@YoureWrongImRightGetOverIt he's kid, bc he hit the desk? At least he's not one of random million envious trolls on the internet, who hate others bc they succeded (btw kinda fitting name to envious random troll)
@@YoureWrongImRightGetOverItusername checks out - rage bot detected 😂😂😂
@@YoureWrongImRightGetOverIt yes, because we know you're a monk capable of pure calmness no matter what
@@YoureWrongImRightGetOverItwhere did you watch that at?
I think what's more important than not being able to target lurkers is that Terran can't really target the banelings rolling under the overseers w/ marines, marauders, and tanks. That severely undercuts their ability to shoot down banelings that are too close. The best they can do at that point is A move, but there wouldn't be concentrated fire on the banes. What an innovative strategy.
Does this mean that Terrans will have to build a number of Thors to do splash dmg on the overseers?
Y'know that might end up being the solution, could definitely see Bio having to convert to Mech against End Game Zerg SkyLord Lurker Bane
sky terran maybe?
@@calebbryant9973 That's where Oliveira differs from Clem. Oliveira seems to use more mech in the late game against Zerg. Instead of relying on Vikings & backline Ghosts to push out zerg detection, he builds a few Thors to do just that. While we may see some nerfs coming for the Overseers, I'm okay with it as long as they address the ghosts, too.
@@motan7864 Imagine Terrans using Command Centers & other buildings (w/ building armor, of course) to cover for Sky Terran.
Extreme late game TvZ w/ 20 BC, 10 CC's, and 10 Factories floating around (SCV under them of course), and zerg can't Neural Parasite, Yoink, and Parasitic Bomb the right targets lolol
I can also see Zerg using a few overseers to cover for drop-o-lord w/ a infestors in it, but may take too much APM.
Hi, yesterday, october 8th, byun tried doing thors to counter rogue's swarm of overseers and locusts, at wardii monthly, it was effective to some point, but he couldn't really punish rogue between locusts volleys since his troops would get picked off by ultras and lings whenever he left his bases. A much interisting match, i sugest u watch it
Rogue is now My currently new favourite starcraft player to watch, his overseer spam strat is so entertaining to watch. It looks so dumb, yet efficient at the same time, just spamming the enemies base with changelings, gaining vision everywhere, and counterring those dreaded ghots. I couln't stop laughing when winter whent to clems base at the end of the last round, and there were just changelings chilling everywhere around it. It looked like there were more fake marines thant actual marines. All your bases are belong to us style XD
well the fact that starcraft is still alive nowadays, has a reason xD there are A LOT of strategies people didn't even think of, i honestly thought changeling where totally useless. and see them under a different light now xD you can body block units with enough of them which is already a lot specially for base invasion etc.
"i will blob out the sun"
What I love doing is making them hold position on ramps.. cutting off supply
This is revenge for blocking ultras with mules :D
Missed the changeling voiceover when they blocked the reinforcements to the main:
"Hey guys, you want through here? Why's that? A lurker attack, you say? Well, we were told to hold this position. Jimmeeey, did you hear about any lurker attack? Nah, sorry you cant pass, we got orders. Well somebody should call into headquarters about that lurker attack. But I cant see anything from here. . Five by five, boys, right?"
that what actually made Clem ragequit lol
I really like the idea behind changling charges even more than body blocking overseers. You can see how much extra time the Zerg gets when the Terran takes those 2-3 seconds to manually shoot them all (and then still end up missing a few most of the time).
It's almost like having creep off of creep. You get to see your enemy, you slow them down, and by doing so you have more time to react. You can even body block with the changlings if you're lucky.
Clem is like “I don’t f-ing understand! I made marines and ghosts and still lost!”
HAHAHAHA
Clearly you've never been anywhere near master in sc2. All these kids talking about Clem raging after a match seems to just dont get it. You guys raging at your opponent and us raging after a lose is different. We get mad because of how we played. You get mad because you're opponent is being "unfair" in your eyes. Stop projecting man.
@@davidlee9938 Imagine being mid masters and saying "we" because you think you're like Clem LOL
Clem being the spokesperson for terran whiners XD
@davidlee9938 keep the cope man.
This is a really cool new strat. Its too bad the balance council will immediately nerf this into oblivion like every other effective zerg strat, while buffing terran again.
Using Overlords and Engineering Bays to shield units was a thing back when I played competitive SC1 many moons ago. Being only a spectator nowadays, I've always wondered why it's not used now and assumed there were changes that made it unfeasible. Turns out people just forgot it was ever a thing I guess.
That and the current culture of the series is one of if it doesn't directly affect the enemy, it's considered wasted resources/energy/apm.
Engineering bays?
Part of it is it worked so well SC1, because it was like carving hieroglyphs with a spoon, a lot harder to do anything at all
In large part, someone would lose if they did it, triply so if the game is decided early but at the same time it needs long term investment, it can't be done all at once (would be better to just attack sooner) (Also zooming in to get a better pov)
We're seeing it come up now, give it a while to see what if any counterplay develops
@@PJOZeus giving time for counters to develop is a far better approach for non-exploits than knee-jerk changes, so I hope this gets adequate time to play out.
@@Grellmax It's 50/50, observation vs study
If they were just watching then yes a knee jerk reaction would be horrible, But I do think in a deterministic way it's entirely possible to ascertain what reactions may be or whether it needs changing
People could belong to either group, and there certainly are observers who cry wolf in that negatively impactful way
more like the game let you swarm them with swarm hosts, then when they nerfed that you could attack your own broodlings to send more broodlings, and now you can currently do this. There's still the strategy of spamming spore/spine crawlers to get around the supply cap.
Rogue has always been the goat and people seem to have forgot that in his absence. Six months back from military and already redefining the ZvT match up that everyone has been stuck in for 3+ years against the reigning world champ.
considering how long the game has been out it's crazy he finds a new strategy
Imagine the posibilities of Rogue finding infestors the way he just find overseers ! I cant w8 !
I always loved Rogue, even tho I'm a Terran Fanboy, I always considered him a goat
Artosis on his multi account
Oh this is a sweet day for Zergs all over the world.
first the reynor t vs clem z, and now this, i never felt so hydrated than by all these terran tears, and we didn't even get the new maps and balance patch yet (3 more weeks hold on in there crimson court sufferers)
37:22 I love the Brenda gag. I like all the gags actually.
Much like I loved the Panda Bear Guy of old tasteless.
Ya do a great balance of friendly fun banter with old radio announcer. Dont change much pls.
First game's accidental organization of stopping the first few nyduses with the stuck tanks was pretty funny.
I remember seeing a video of someone massing overlords and blotting out the screen while unloading/nydus come up. Always wanted to see something like that, especially in clem vs reynor zvt
Zerg definitely needs to exploit nydus as much as possible. Even multiple networks at the same time to try to overcome the insurmountable advantage that terrans have in firepower and mobility. Clem starts to make rookie mistakes when he simply can't micro himself out of the situation.
Can’t wait for Zerg to be nerfed to a ladder cheese race like Protoss as well
@@laureloneiros1500 worlds 2026 will be 19 terrans and serral
@@ottoback5375 that will be the moment MaxPax makes his first appearance, dragged by Reynor.
@@laureloneiros1500 Zergs the race w the most champions complain about balance xD
@ottoback5375 serral is a pure macro player. Thats why he only plays zerg.
He takes almost 0 risks and usually wins because he didn't made a single mistage while his opponents risky play failed. This works because zerg is automatically ahead.
He wouldn't have a chance on zerg if it were made into protoss 2.0.
Just wait until Serral starts using this, also Rogue is rapidly climbing the aligulac ladder (Trap also climbing).
It was nice to see this strategy game #3 come to a conclusion when @Winter gave us an hour long game with the same strategy ending in a mutual draw a few days ago.
Considering how that's like the only ghost counter zerg has if this gets nerfed in some way you know what cabal actually runs the balance council
Ghost is fine, Zergs are too slow for Clem.
@@geuros Less tech investment and resources to counter more time, upgrade diversity and unit cost
It's primary counter is a burrowed unit who entirely relies on stealth against a race which has on demand detection anywhere on the map anytime they want it
No it's not fine. Might not be the biggest issue, but not fine
I just think it was a bad play in round #3. Clem let the worms happen instead of breaking off units to defend from them. I don't play this game, but as an observer, I can see Zerg is the most flexible yet easiest to cripple. The only way Zerg wins usually is by rapid expansion, generating enough income to throw hundreds of units away. Protoss are the glass cannons with their endgame being air superiority. The Terran are turtles using certain units to damage the enemies economy to reach max upgrades to win. There's a counter to everything, and part of that is the information gathering. This same strategy wouldn't be effective against storm Protoss. I have no skin in the game, just my personal thoughts.
@@coltongropp1465 yeah the one caveat is spellcasters, which is the only reason Zerg doesn’t immediately die every single time (queens) and their only dependable late game (vipers/infestors), as clem showed with Serral trying to quick tech to those late spellcasters just means you take too much attrition to lead, at least from Terran’s best
@@coltongropp1465 Of course it was bad gameplay. But if he did break off units he'd have deficit somewhere else and could have been overrun in front. Clem simply doesn't know how to split his units against that tactic.
I think you can zoom-in the camera in order to see under the Overseers. It goes slightly more horizontal the more it zooms in.
Yes, but doing that while microing a fight is an increased APM tax.
2:51 That *Rogue One* reference was pretty smooth
At 20:07 where you mention "making your favorite player look like a noob," you should have mentioned that 2021 matchup where he cheesed Serral 4x in a row in TSL 8.
Or where he 4-1ed Maru using Roaches.
The cheeses were really brilliant btw. He really outplayed serral, pig has a very nice breakdown of that tsl
It took 13 years for Zergs to realize the power of Changelings?
And nydus. You could literally fire 5 worms at the same time. It'd take some serious firepower to kill all of them before one of them is ready yet players have not done it before.
You don't usually build 20 overseer at a time lel
It will get nerfed before it changes the pro-game.
Yep. Thats why Zerg was boosted during the Years, to help the weak Zerg players :)
It's still so nice to be able to come in and read a stupid comment 13 years into a game.
Those nydus worms popping up one by one in the middle of the base looked like campaign
I can imagine Winter giggling and curling his toes as he writes these titles.
I mean his frame rate did drop in the last fight so the title is at least a tiny bit true lol
i feel like ravagers never get used to their full potential. the actives always get spammed in the spam spot instead of being spread out for the enemy to micro into
I like the background stuff at 32:48.
Bomfunk MC's - baneling micro,
Gina / oracle dancing, while Terry / adept strangeld :D
34:40 I was baited
Your unit impressions are so good! I love the roleplay, especially your changelings.
"You want a piece of meat, boy?"
Such a crazy strategy blocking off units with changelings that was incredible
Did they finally figure out how to counter the broken ghosts 😂
Hopefully. Ghosts only weakness is that it is much slower than stimmed marines and marauders. And even medivacs are too slow. Terran has to start learning some strategy now instead of either turtling or abusing MMM.
@@matiashamalainen7965 lol, zerg tears after Serral dominated for 8 years
best experts from "imba ghosts" are dudes, who "only watching, not playing". I'm sure u guys will figure out something "smart"
@@matiashamalainen7965 stay ez
@@adm-jw3yf everyone knows ghosts are broken in both matchups and i will be very surprised if that isn't reflected in the upcoming balance patch
Nice to see Clem back in using terran
The twenty seconds of stunned silence at 40:52 was very chef's-kiss, as they say. Truly, the _most_ professional StarCraft II.
14:36 the right changling in a right spot can make all the difference in a match
I was waiting to see your cast on this, love the way you cast games, always so much fun
havent enjoyed sc2 for a while, this is nice
The amount of changelings lurkers and nyduses have to be extremely exhausting, even for a player like Clem. I think it's a winning strategy with more practice put in
Not really, it requires insane amounts of resources to pull off, and will most likely never work against Clem in the future.
regarding the first game, how can it be that a map that has 70% terran win rate in pro play is even legal in tournament matches?
That sounds ridiculous
Players can veto maps, I guess
@@seethroughlife1481 not in a bo9 final with 9 map pool
Awesome, hope jimmy gets to appear on October 31
You need Liberators to hold the front, while you deal with the nyduses, because those changelings will be everywhere. 1300 in nyduses is a small army's worth. You could be killing nyduses for 15 minutes.
It amazes me that a world champion terran is struggling to BUILD HIS FACTORY in a position that won't trap his own units. wtf.
Personally i think Libs could counter that mass overseer strategy quite nicely. They do air aoe damage, so can quickly clear large amounts of overseers, and counter the lurkers too.
Lurkers and Nydus. Imagine if tanks were underground and you could have them spawn in the enemy's base on demand.
Dude right when I needed something I watch while I eat, your there winter! Thanks for being the best!
So ... who knew that having to constantly cycle your army between the front line and rear line to combat "drops" in your main and constantly being out maneuvered and unable to "hit" your target.
I feel like this strat is mostly a win more strategy, sure you can do it when you are ahead and can invest in tons of overseers but try to do it when the terran has enough ghosts and APM to just snipe endlessly and you'll loose that overseer group very quickly.
This last game shows it perfectly, he's got clem pushed back in his base with non stop nydus harass to keep him occupied from using snipes.
I do think any spammable unit from spells that starts to influence fights by either blocking or dealing damage like changelings are gonna get nerfed, all those mechanics in the past have been nerfed into the ground, swarmhosts, ravens, broodlords, infestors all had such a mechanic and all got nerfed into oblivion, some so hard the unit is more or less dead, ie swarmhosts and ravens.
The list is infested marines, point defense drones, seeker missiles, broodlings, swarmlings and auto turret.
Funnily enough 3 of these are from the raven, and the fact the raven is so stunted is the same reason the ghost is so overtuned. While I'd never argue for a ghost nerf alone, having a better late game spread between raven and ghost would be so much better than having a unit that does just about everything by necessity for that said to keep up in the late game.
The point is to force terran to split his units unfavorably by using multiple worms at the same time. This strategy is only for the late game, but doesn't require one to be ahead. Ghosts are immobile, and can't be re-positioned to defend from this. It requires actual strategy to do it.
@@matiashamalainen7965 I'm talking about the 30+ overseers, that seriously requires you to be ahead, that's such in investment it can't be done just on the side.
Took me this long to realize that Jimmy loves requesting 143X likes so our boy will cast another.
40:51 lol at winter showcasing the stages of grief
I really like your casts man!! Thanks, you made my day slightly betteeeer!
Something to think about: If the Overseer Cloud Tactic is helping the Lurkers not be sniped I would think I would be better if you put units under the Cloud that Ghosts "Want" to snipe or player wants to focus fire down. For Example you can put Ultras or Infesters under the cloud. Move the Cloud where you want to attack and have Ultras follow Under them and they Can't be sniped well or focused fire well. That is what I think anyway.
Can you do a throwback series where you cast games from Wings of Liberty, I think that will be very interesting and fun to both watch and cast.
It's criminal that the loss screen does not show the amount of changelings xD
the SC2 memes between games are kinda funny 33:20 "Knock Knock" "Who's there" "6 zerglings lol" cracked me up
WOW. I first played StarCraft before you were born. thats wild its still going.
Clem gonna be seeing changelings in his dream
It was nice yo hear the epic music - so glad blizz didnt ignore the music - almost as important as graphics
Even more so. The music really made this game feel so epic. Even years after playing the game the music will remain giving you goosebumps. It is just so great!
I think you gonna start seeing a lot more nukes if this carries on. Couple a red dots will quickly shake up that lategame strat! Awesome commentating again - love it!!
This by far has to be the greatest match i have seen in close to decade.
Oh no! Terran might not be able to just build one unit to dominate at high levels? Get bent, build something besides ghosts. This is good for the game imo- as seeing T just build one unit and turtle makes me just skip forward to see if the next game is more entertaining to watch (even with Winter commentary).
I can't believe the overseer+lurker is an actual strat - the byun game was so fun to watch
Imagine Clem having nightmares of changelings all around him and he gets swarmed and they start eating him alive
No. Get help.
Try a Thor, Clem.
It'll kill like 14 overlords at a time
Thors range sucks and it will be countered by neurals that would be gg if he went for thors
vipers would love to hook them. maybe nukes to force the zerg to move his army of lurkers. but good luck without cloak
I mean sure I've been watching SC2 for 12 years but really I'm only here for the continuing adventures of the Knitting Crew.
Rogue with the half-made bed strats. It might even be a greenscreen just to troll.
clem prolly just thought: 'oh my gosh they're gonna nerf the shit out of terran and these maps! i better play like trash until the patch and lose in a bunch of meme ways!' lol
In before the meta will evolve to mass liberators, along with this army, which can deal with the lurker sieges and also if there aren't hydras underneath can just kill the clump of overseers. This is sick strategy, but the zerg has such a high army value on the map including the overseers that if they lose it all, it will be GG.
But that is the beauty of this game, now there are multifacets and counterplay in the lategame. If they get mass libs, parasitic bomb is strong. Libs cannot kill overseers with hydras underneath etc. This literally breaks the terran lategame winning algorithm with ghost, having top tier macro and micro and slow expansion. Now there are a lot more pathways.
Thank god to rogue for doing this, now terran has to go back to the tempo game to break the zerg, which spares us this 1 hour turtlefest games which are just frustrating to watch. Fingers crossed we might even see the muta ling bane return
Maybe do all army move, grab one marine, shift right click any unit that isn't following the move command. Then that marine will get some, or maybe a lot of the changelings.
And this is why the council of Terran D-riders exists 😏
miam miam tasty terran tears
58:53 he got obliterated at the front by banelings
Well you got 1,800 likes. I just found you. I havent watched SC2 in quite a while but just started back this week. You make great vodeos.
36:50 I think this is the best Brenda-Susan conversation yet
I haven’t played StarCraft in at minimum two decades. But I’ve watched a few of your vids and you are commenting the hell out of the game. Favorite quote this vid… “ im going to have to adjust my graphics settings if this becomes the new meta.” Keep on keeping on
Hey Rogue, how to counter ghost?
In theory? Mass Overseers with changelings can bodyblock the snipes.
In reality? Dont fight them and go for the production with a lucky nydus.
Holy crap @ that APM. I remember when the program to measure APM in replays was first released; I forget the guy's name now, but it was really neat to see. BWChart I think. Maybe SC2 and BW are different in that respect, or maybe people have gotten that much faster... I remember I think Chojja having what was considered very high APM, being over 300. Most top players were in the 200s. Or maybe it was measured differently, I dunno.
I wonder if you could do the same with broodlords. Maybe stack them together with overseers or overlords so that ghosts can not target broods. So maybe a strat of hydra Ling bane broodlord could be somewhat alright. Maybe this could work as long as the Thor/Viking count isn’t too high. Well the threat of nydus in the main base wouldn’t be so high.
Anyway, I really loved rogues style. So creative on the one hand but so sad on the other that Zerg still lacks a direct counter to the mass ghost strat.
He thought he could get away with it but “Rogue One”
Ahh great day to watch some SC2
That cloud tactic was something else..... Imagine if he build more from the start and did a roach/ling (cloud) rush!... or he can hover over the other base as well and prevent lift offs!!! or maybe disable some units that were not grouped!... Winter, ...tell him!
For the Overseer Cloud Tactic... I don't think roach/ling will work to well due to the AI Auto targeting the fights like it normally does. If the Overseer Cloud Tactic is helping the Lurkers not be sniped I would think I would be better if you put units under the Cloud that Ghosts "Want" to snipe or player wants to focus fire down. For Example you can put Ultras or Infesters under the cloud. Move the Cloud where you want to attack and have Ultras follow Under them and they Can't be sniped well or focused fire well. That is what I think anyway.
A Frenchman takes out another queen 😂😂
Terran clearly needs to do the same with floating barracks to block ghosts from being seen. I did the same in a wc3 tournament with ancient protectors since you can make infinite amounts of them (zero supply), they started glitching out into each other in circular patterns
while i think about it, i think this would be even more efficient with a few broodlords (like 3) in the pack of flying units. more small creatures sent at the ennemy, overwhelming his APM. Still difficult to snipe in the middle of other units. Other races makes some units in small numbers to complement their army (like a few vikings / oracles / banshees), it's time for the zergs to do the same.
OK Winter's ending to Clem/Rogue was excellent
when the caster keeps you watching a game you don't understand shit of-
I love the Brenda and Susan bit, please never stop.
It's not a bit good sir.
40:49, Winter speechless for a while minute, says it all
ขอขอบคุณ
You donated him 40 thai bat ??
Yes 😀
@@SpreadYourFireS that's like 6 cents USD bro !!
@knowledgeispower3212 and ?? In Thailand 40 baht cab buy 1 meal and yes compare to usd is look so tiny but i guess i just want to support as i can bro 😀
33 baht = 1 usd bro
Those hearthstone cards of the players are amazing!
Clem is one of the only terrans i see on the regular with medivac's so used theres like 9 empty especially in the first game. if he just builds the upgrade for energy it could be insane for him in particular.
All of a sudden Artosis' picking of Rogue as the GOAT doesn't sound that absurd right?
Only serral fanboys and now clem fanboys will disagree.
@@Glass_Half_Full nah, only Korean fanboys are butthurt because Serral is the GOAT, and the only one that is on his level is Clem.
Rogue is great, and definitely the best Korean, but not the GOAT. Serral has much more in every single metric, and there was only one to take him out convincingly at his best.
Even herO said that almost every Korean pro believes that Serral is the greatest of all time in the game. All your arguments are invalid after that interview.
@@OnigoroshiZero lolol nahh. See you next video. I now know how to summon the likes of you 🤣🤣
Finally an answer to mass ghosts that is as genius as it is frustrating as it is expensive
This is definitely a feature and Terrans that think ghosts are okay deserve to have to put up with this, I'll just be honest, it very obviously exploits the GHOST and ONLY the ghost. Don't wanna deal with it anymore, gonna have to change how the ghost works. I like it, Terran relies way, way too much on one unit and that one unit is insane when compared to other lategame units, think about how niche and often useless ultras, broodlords, motherships, etc. are in comparison to the ghost. It is in a league of it's own and so you may as well get creative and think outside the box for dealing with it. I don't like knowing that these are the lengths required to counter one unit, and neither should anyone else. But hey, Ghosts didn't get changed in the latest patch so, this is here to stay until that thought is unanimous apparently. Your point and click unit will now have it's pointing and clicking directly blocked, enjoy. If only protoss could find a clever way to do the same thing. I think it's also pretty hilarious how far rouge has gone with this, it's not just about the ghost anymore it's about body blocking literally everything that needs to be target fired.
Very satisfying to watch Clem like this, after witnessing Serral's 5-0 defeat :)) I always want to see Clem in this mood, lol.
Clem beat serral 5-0?
I like the knitting crew
I was hoping so hard for that reaper to get away at the start haha
I think Rogue is using Clem's Sensor Towers against him.
Changelings do appear on them no ? Untill they transform? Or do they avoid sensor tower detection at all ?
I think its using Terran's strategy against them. Really good!
Love it !
What is the playlist for the music that you use for these videos? Love it
40:50 the confusion... the grief... 😂