SPOILER SHIELD! If you're asking which game is Game of the Year, there are at least 3 candidates in this series. This is by far the highest level Terran vs Protoss I've ever seen from start to finish. I was exhausted after game one, and that was just a warmup.
EVEN MORE SPOILERS WHY DID YOU CLICK REPLIES IF YOU HAVENT WATCHED. But if you forced me to pick just ONE as a Game of the Year candidate it would be: Game 3 (but Game 1 & Game 4 are very close for very different reasons, very hard to pick but Game 3 could not have been more action packed).
I'm lazy but if you want here's a free idea: Dirty Harry (possibly with protoss face) holding a bunch of disruptors in his hand, pointing them down at a bio ball, saying "You're thinking, did he fire six shots or only five?"
I only found you and your channel during the last Katowice, but your casting is what got me back into watching SC2 casts in general. I had stopped playing and watching after WoL, and I had forgotten how much I enjoy it. I've been watching you every day since then. Thank you for all your casts that you've done, and will continue to do. I will be watching til the end.
7:31 watching Clem and MaxPax dodging Stalker and Marauder projectiles respectively by jumping in and out of drop ships is such an uncanny sight. It's insanely impressive, but also a little bit hilarious too
I really love the super available gold 3rd that quickly turns into a big glowing 'hit me here' spot later in the midgame. Worried about how zergies defend it though...
Winter: "Jimmy!" Jimmy: "Yeah man today was a good one!" yeah no seriously, the 'i gotta apreciate an econimic agressive strategy' transition was very nice, not cheap at all! That alone already made klicking worth it. ❤
Seeing protoss being so reliant on the disrupter shots is such a tragedy, especially at the pro levels cause Clem makes it look so easy to make them a non factor. I hope they buff protoss even ever so slightly in the next patch outside of pvp to make them not live or die (mainly die) by the rupter shots.
The problem is when there is a big enough bio ghost ball, no ground toss unit out-damage the medivac healing except the disruptor. This is the crux of the matchup as of the moment. I am waiting for some ground toss buff
The problem also comes from vikings (and corruptors). They can be make fast with reactor, cost only 2 supplies and when they are out, protoss have no choice but to go templars and disruptors because they are countering everything else.
More buffs? So basically you're saying buff toss until clem loses, bec there were games he was outplaying maxpax (w better understanding of late game) and still was close to losing!!
Disruptors were a mistake. They gotta be the most cancerous and worst designed unit in RTS history ever, and they dont even really work at the top level as showcased here. They gotta go. Then nerf the EMPs shield damage and work from there.
Shoutout to both of these guys. In almost every game you never knew who was winning or it seemed like one was dead but ended up coming back or making it insanely close.
Protoss has eco advantage the entire game 4 but still loses, EMP is so oppressive MaxPax didn't even try Storm or get shield upgrades, 2 of the best Protoss advantage just invalidated because of a single spell
I've been watching this channel for years but I have to say, your commentary on this video in particular was enough to make me chortle multiple times. Great addition to an already stellar series. Great content Winter.
Watching Maxpax perform miracles despite the handicap of the weakest of the 3 races is nothing short of awe inspiring. Best disruptor control in the game.
Genuine question: this legitimately made me think Protoss is just not strong enough (at high level). Or that Terran is too strong, more likely. I feel like at this point it is disengenous to argue MaxPax is less skilled than Clem, but yet while ahead in 2 out of the 3 games he lost, he still loses despite no real mistakes. Something is up.
Yeah I was thinking, what is the pro level skill ceiling of Protoss? I would say Blink stalker micros but that only impacts the early to mid game and the then Disruptors. While Terran can do so much with marine marauder micro alone. Also the fact that there are no other options for Protoss to go with after the initial 3 one time use Collosus, once 4-5 Vikings are out. And then you can just continue Viking production if the Protoss was given enough time to build Skytoss.
if you watch PIGs commentary of the series he talks about how much having templars with some storm would have helped against those clumped up marine bio. Btw MaxPax is not at Clem's level (esp late game), at some point you can't blame the game but it have to come down to skill. Because the only way to satisfy the balance whiners is only if the other person they like wins. Hero 2-0 Maru in GSL last Thursday, he also beat Byun (who had way more supply) from a insane comeback that pre-patch would have lost. Clem has to have full attention, insane micro to dodge those disruptor shots, I think Maxpax would of beat any other Terran, it's just Clem is similar to Serral (obv Serral is better) in that his skill will make the race look op. Also asking these questions after the patch is only 1-2 week old w new maps isn't fair but we are seeing Hero playing really well w the new patch. Maru and Byun are no joke and he defeated them
@@jameslog3431 again with the storm argument, being countered by the strongest unit in game, Ghost. I'm not saying you are wrong, by most players in the ladder, I think that is the correct answer. But at the highest level, I think going into Storm is like having the same problem of going Collosus, but in my opinion, worse than having Collosus. You need to get a good Storm not just once but the counter, Ghost, just need to land once and suddenly you got no Storm AND your units is damaged. And then after that if you are lucky you get your Archon refund, if they are not just a meatballshield infront. I'm not complaining as a player, because I think as a low rank random player, the game is somewhat balanced. But I am complaining on the pro scene especially PvT is such a slog to watch no matter who you rooting for. It just comes down to Disruptor shots or EMP. Well I at least enjoy early to mid game PvT especially when Terrans doing tank pushes or widow mine drop, this to me is the peak skill expression on both ends.
@@limbalicious Ghosts are not the strongest unit in the game anymore, and its copium to keep saying it. Infestor/Vipers contend with each other for that spot now.
@@elgar7252 Ghost literally counter all protoss units. While having no solid counters to use from the toss after you get 6+. Especially when it comes to ultra lategame, when terran have infinite scan, and keep killing your observers. Ghost dont just hardcounter high templar or sentry. They soft counter all protoss units that have shields (wich is all, including buildings). Thats why theyr made at a standard timing, instead of reactionary versus heavy high templar or sentry play. Ghost should be countered by collosi, not by disruptor. Ghost should have the light tag, so they actually die to collosi. (or collosi should do more damage to all unit types) And protoss needs a better anti air unit then expensive low dps high in supply requirment stalkers. Something that actually counters mass vikings properly (like storm used to do before ppl started learning howto EMP)
What is the Protoss counter to mass vikings plus liberators? Maxpax tried almost everything. Skytoss is just a sad shadow of its former self and yet costs so much
not really anything *counters* viking/lib/ghost per say. you can technically trade with ghosts using disrupters and zone the vikings with storm. And if you’re successful, oracle revelations and tempests to chip away at libs. but it is incredibly difficult to do (esp compared to viking stutter) and once the viking/lib count get this high they can just sorta steamroll toss anyways. It really doesn’t help that tempests/rupters are insanely supply intensive, expensive, and slow to produce while libs/vikings can be reactored out fast
Adding to what already said person above me, Toss really needs only tempest to siege the libs. You don't need to go carriers. You are supposed to stay at ground and zone with storm. But good luck with that when terran casually runs 15 ghosts in their army. Carriers work as a suprise switch. If they have ghost marauder with libs, and you suddenly attack with 6-8 carriers, you can just win the game. Clem spotted the transition tho...
Thanks for the replies. Your qualifiers still underscore the problem - there isn’t truly a counter that can be produced as quickly and at the same cost, both in terms resources and supply. Something has to be adjusted to achieve better balance
One of the sickest series I've seen casted in months! As always, Winter raises the bar a notch and makes it even more enjoyable! I've been a massive SC2 player since release, but for the last 7-8 years, I've mostly been lurking around, watching streams, and enjoying the absolute skill of all these players!
This is peak PvT! Watching Clem I see the most solid and relentless terran ever, the macro of INno and the micro of Byun in one. Watching Maxpax I see the patience of peak Stats and the cuttroat execution of a Parting or MC coming together in one player. Truely the level of play has never been higher despite sc2s ups and downs of support and popularity. Thank you Winter!
The mental energy used by Clem to controll Terran is x2 x3 more the MaxPax or most players of this tier. If Clem would play Protoss at this overdrive rate, he would destroy almost everyone. Protoss is too easy even for high tier, they don't sweat enough for this victories and complain that protoss is weak at pro scenes because they used to win easy everytime. It's funny that Reynor casually switched to protoss few times and how suddenly he looks better then most protoss. Terran is very strong but in a practice, simple people of all leagues, can't have mental resources to controll it. Geniuses like Clem Maru Inno etc. are not birth everyday
@@defendermd2991You basically saying that Clem, Maru or Innovation like to lose tons of money playing a clearly inferior race, when they just could switch race and win basically everything.
@@defendermd2991 yeah, cool. It, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that starting with the first tank push, protoss is constantly on the back foot in combat power compared to terran. This is such a ridiculous and arrogant claim, that all the protoss pro gamers are just not good enough. Gateway army of protoss isn't capable of fighting terran barracks army which is what the first timing attack of terran is all about. The tech transition into colossus gives protoss like a 3-4 minute of respite until terran gets 6-7 vikings at which point collosuses become one time use. The disruptors are the only somewhat reliable way to go into mid/lategame for protoss. And what is the transition for terran? A better marine with the ability to instantly half the health of an army. A zoning flier versus disruptors. On top of the fact that tanks are still good, and all the barrack units are still strong. And I am not even talking about the fact that one of the main cornerstones of a proper lategame protoss army is UNUSABLE, it literally doesn't exist in PvT. Spellcaster comparison is also funny. A barely moving, balloon shooting old man that has to wait to deal damage and click to exhaust mana and can combine with another old man to be killed faster than a probe. vs a ... Ghost, the best unit in the whole game. Yeah, tell me about how terrans are just better. Protoss don't complain about zerg and Serral plays zerg btw.
winter kept saying tempest gets guarantee dmg, but little to none mention viking is the one guarantee dmg here lol. viking kills those 38 interceptors easily without any counter from archon/stalker, all ground army getting wiped in seconds with liberator. such a brainded balance
Damn that was a fun series. A lot less widow mines makes it a lot more enjoyable to watch too. Genuine question: What is the Lategame Protoss army against Terran? Like, clearly lib+ghost+viking is the best lategame for terran here (Not that it can't be beat - just that it's the best lategame army), but what is it for Protoss? Whether it's disruptors or carriers they both just kind of die to sky terran so idk
In my opinion: Disruptor to counter ghost and bio, Storm and archons against air units, oracles for revelation, Carrier for dps, Tempest for zoning and Mothership for recall mobility. Furthermore, I think the main problem for Toss is EMP, which is instant 100 damage that cannot be dodged and nullifies storm.
@@schach6666 Ghosts, Ghosts, Ghosts. Medivacs counter disruptors anyways I mean you're not wrong that that's the best you got as protoss, but it's like going out to eat and all you can afford is mac & cheese. If you could have something better you'd get it
Epic series, this should demonstrate how op disruptors are at lower level - Clem had to dodge basically all the shots to stay in the fight - big hits completely shift the momentum
@alltat I get what you're saying friend. But did you watch it where he had a single infestor left and made the protoss self delete his remaining forces with their own tempest? It exhausted the whole map. There were swarm hosts. Everything. Pure distilled chaos of a match.
Re: your point about dragoons vs immortals, I'd say easily immortals - mostly because they don't have the spastic pathfinding of dragoons, and that's a huge upgrade on its own
So bad too see that a protoss trading worse than the zerg in this matchup . So well balanced . And so fun to watch how a terran use the bioball and the A move . If there is a little trouble then halfing the HP of the full protoss army with an EMP .
Hey Winter, just wanted to say thank you for all the incredible commentary. I've followed you for a long while and literally look forward to every new post. I hope you continue to cast for as long as possible. My internet world would not be complete otherwise.
Man watching TvP is just painful at this point. No disrespect to Clem, he's an incredible player and more than deserves his success but most of the time it just feels like even the best Toss in the world can't do anything against a good Terran player. I think upwards of 60-70% of the TvPs that Winter casts the Protoss manages to scrap their way to one win, maybe cheese a second but just gets ground out by more efficient and mobile units for the rest of the series
@@benismann this game was from ESL weekly. Nearly every time the finals are between Clem, MaxPax or Reyonr. What do you think happens with other players? Also, its not like Clem always wins. While he is on a win streak against him right now, MaxPax also won fair share of games vs Clem. Not too long ago he 3-0 him. If Clem is not around than MaxPax is most likely to win the cup.
Game 3 Clem dodging Disruptors from every which way but up was actually insane. Arguably he was slowed down the entire game by not sacrificing some of his bascially deadweight Medivacs for more Ghosts and Vikings.
I just gotta say in that 2nd game, 18:00 ish, it was so satisfying to watch MaxPax get Clem to stim and back off. Medivacs out of energy and every stim should be 'permanent'.
I am so tired of seeing Protoss kicked all over the field. Go Carriers...Terran goes Viking...Protoss loses Go Colossi...Terran goes Viking....Protoss loses Vikings are too cheap, too quickly built. LIberators are too cheap and too quickly built. Whereas Toss doesnt have any air force worth a damn and can only win if Terran screws up. :/
@@cavemantero What dragoons? Or do you mean stalkers? Besides just watching this video, stalkers firepower just bounces off Vikings. Takes far too many stalkers to one-shot anything.
You do get to have one "if you watch one SC2 video a year, make it this one" once a year. By definition. And I will click it because I trust you. But not every video from then on can be a "please do watch this one, it's special". That's not how this works ;) This one was really good, though.
Everytime i see pro level sc2 today, i remember seeing WoL and how much different it is now, some things remain similar but the new unit rosters and game changes for units makes it insane, the amount of micro and apm you need to play against certain builds is ridiculous.
whatever maxpax do cannot break those notorious viking+liberator, its pathethic maxpax can only juggling and running his army from being chased by viking+liberator lol. there's very little for terran to use any strategy
Would the old fast void rays have worked? Or would we have to get the campaign style void rays that chained their beams through multiple units for them to be effective?
@@ryanaegis3544 i think current voids with speed could work, IF they were less expensive and had less supply. 4 supply is an overkill. But then again, enough libs with a raven beats them too...
P vs anything now has become so predictable that P will lose. Man P really do need some buff. I feel like Protoss units sound cool on paper, but in reality they are all just gimmicks that rely too much on opponents being dumb, instead of players being good with it. So say the 2 biggest AOE are storm and disrupter shot, both require opponent to stand still for a few seconds for damage, while vs things like EMP, Fungal, once they catch your units, it is guaranteed 100% damage. P air units are just a joke, Mothership is utter garbage, Tempest is good vs nothing, VR is good 50% of the time and Carrier is just crazy expensive to maintain. So, P units are just mid, with abilities that fade out late game, and late game units are garbage.
Is this disruptor shots dancing really cool to see? Justed locked into the video, how SC2 broke grubbys heart.. The game mechanic and units went inna wrong way imo
In game 3, I think Maxpax was deliberately sending his Interceptors on the rocks to keep them out so when he attacked Clem they would reach the targets faster. I also wonder if putting a Tank would have been a better way of harassing that 12 o'clock base late into the game.
better nerf disruptors more i dont think they move slow enough, and i dont think the aoe is small enough any of these videos that are like "THIS GAME IS AMAZING" no matter who the content creator is, if it has a protoss in it. the protoss loses. came to check in 6 months later to see if the game has kept the status quo of protoss being the worst as a design choice, and same old same old
Man, disruptors seem so oppressive when you have enough that there's always one off cooldown. One slip up and they're dead though X_X. Also have no idea how Clem lives through Maxpax's intense blink stalker aggression in the early game. Seemed like he was almost dead lost several times there.
Was there a single game where Maxpax's disruptors turned the tide or were in any way decisive? When one of the best Protosses in the world lose fight after fight after fight after fight with 75-25 split on resources lost, the disruptor feels like an absolute joke. Maxpax was never remotely close to winning a game after game 1. It's the same as it was last couple patches- insane blink micro into losing the game. Only difference now is the loss is more drawn out than a-move counterattack to win. While that should in theory be a good change, Protoss still has no comeback mechanic outside hail mary disruptor shots, and we saw how that goes.
Watching those disrupters do nothing all game long and those MMM stimming and splitting is just the dumbest shit ever. PvZ is in a far better shape than PvT.
the stronger terran thing.. is that basically everything is long range. so they never engage first.. its the enemies who always gets damage before engaging.
The pace is honestly insane. I do hope for both of these players that they have adequate training, diet and lifestyle to sustain this kind of level... I'm really worried for their health :(
Is maxpax officially the best Protoss now? If so, does that mean the best Terran, the best Zerg, and the best Protoss now live outside of Korea? It’s not like koreas lineup of her0, Maru, and dark is a bad set of players, but I think we’ve finally reached a point where Korea doesn’t have the best player for any race. That’s kinda a crazy change, serral rising was one thing but now it’s not just serral, the rest of the world has finally caught up to Korea.
I think its more along the lines of korea still heavily watches brood war way more than sc2. So alot of potentially amazing sc2 players never picked it up because the culture still values broodwar
Nah. Mmr based 1place is nothing. Even by this metric, Maxpax constanly swaps 1st place with Hero, but since Maxpax never playes offline tournaments, we are left with Hero As for others, Maru is still the best Terran period. He was the only terran that had a chance against Serral at IEM Katowice 2024 (the world championship) The only undisputed 1st place that Europe has is Serral, but oh boy, that is probably the best sc2 player in whole history of sc2 Also, korea players are hurting due to the obligatory military service.
Terran needs to start losing some advantages it has with the way these maps give them easy late game eco. Terran is so broken compared to toss it's insane. Toss has to hit a ball or it can't ever engage.
I love the casts and will continue watch em but these PvT games just get goofy once the terrans get ghost out and kind of predictable. I hope the counsil gets the mid game to become more dynamic again. I doubt maxpax, astrea (on a good day) and hero arent good enough. It just feels like they have a mountain to climb once ghost are out and a few Vikings and its been that way for bit too long.
> MaxPax is aggressive: Oh wow, Protoss seems like such an OP race how the hell are you supposed to play against that? > Clem is aggressive: Oh wow, Terran seems like such an OP race how the hell are you supposed to play against that? Seriously these guys are just too good.
SPOILER SHIELD! If you're asking which game is Game of the Year, there are at least 3 candidates in this series. This is by far the highest level Terran vs Protoss I've ever seen from start to finish. I was exhausted after game one, and that was just a warmup.
EVEN MORE SPOILERS WHY DID YOU CLICK REPLIES IF YOU HAVENT WATCHED.
But if you forced me to pick just ONE as a Game of the Year candidate it would be:
Game 3 (but Game 1 & Game 4 are very close for very different reasons, very hard to pick but Game 3 could not have been more action packed).
❤
I'm lazy but if you want here's a free idea: Dirty Harry (possibly with protoss face) holding a bunch of disruptors in his hand, pointing them down at a bio ball, saying "You're thinking, did he fire six shots or only five?"
Well i see only a suferring protoss :D
I only found you and your channel during the last Katowice, but your casting is what got me back into watching SC2 casts in general. I had stopped playing and watching after WoL, and I had forgotten how much I enjoy it. I've been watching you every day since then. Thank you for all your casts that you've done, and will continue to do. I will be watching til the end.
7:31 watching Clem and MaxPax dodging Stalker and Marauder projectiles respectively by jumping in and out of drop ships is such an uncanny sight. It's insanely impressive, but also a little bit hilarious too
was that the best use of apm at the time? probably not. was it a great show for us? absolutely
If i try that instead of dodging i would end miss-timing everyhing and eating every shot in the face
When i boot up a custom game on slow, micro my heart out and then watch the replay at 2x speed I’m still not even close to that level of micro xD
24:36 There's still some widow mines over here...
"KABOOM BABY"
Came to the comments just for this!!
I'm convinced MaxPax actually is an alien.
And Clem is on stims.
Dynasty is such a cool map dude, the early brawls over the gold bases are so much fun to watch.
I really love the super available gold 3rd that quickly turns into a big glowing 'hit me here' spot later in the midgame. Worried about how zergies defend it though...
Yeah it just sucks how zerg basically can’t play on it, but super fun to watch TVP there
begging in the title, begging in the intro ... classic xD
We have transcended dignity.
Made my day just a little bit better tbh.
No this is winter
Ironically, it makes me forget to like the videos when I'm laughin about the intros
Winter: "Jimmy!"
Jimmy: "Yeah man today was a good one!"
yeah no seriously, the 'i gotta apreciate an econimic agressive strategy' transition was very nice, not cheap at all! That alone already made klicking worth it. ❤
Seeing protoss being so reliant on the disrupter shots is such a tragedy, especially at the pro levels cause Clem makes it look so easy to make them a non factor.
I hope they buff protoss even ever so slightly in the next patch outside of pvp to make them not live or die (mainly die) by the rupter shots.
The problem is when there is a big enough bio ghost ball, no ground toss unit out-damage the medivac healing except the disruptor. This is the crux of the matchup as of the moment. I am waiting for some ground toss buff
The problem also comes from vikings (and corruptors). They can be make fast with reactor, cost only 2 supplies and when they are out, protoss have no choice but to go templars and disruptors because they are countering everything else.
More buffs? So basically you're saying buff toss until clem loses, bec there were games he was outplaying maxpax (w better understanding of late game) and still was close to losing!!
protos don't require buff, it's the terran which require nerfs
Disruptors were a mistake. They gotta be the most cancerous and worst designed unit in RTS history ever, and they dont even really work at the top level as showcased here.
They gotta go. Then nerf the EMPs shield damage and work from there.
Shoutout to both of these guys. In almost every game you never knew who was winning or it seemed like one was dead but ended up coming back or making it insanely close.
Protoss has eco advantage the entire game 4 but still loses, EMP is so oppressive MaxPax didn't even try Storm or get shield upgrades, 2 of the best Protoss advantage just invalidated because of a single spell
I've been watching this channel for years but I have to say, your commentary on this video in particular was enough to make me chortle multiple times. Great addition to an already stellar series. Great content Winter.
Watching Maxpax perform miracles despite the handicap of the weakest of the 3 races is nothing short of awe inspiring. Best disruptor control in the game.
State of competitive Protoss last couple of years is sad, is my opinion as purely spectator.
Genuine question: this legitimately made me think Protoss is just not strong enough (at high level). Or that Terran is too strong, more likely. I feel like at this point it is disengenous to argue MaxPax is less skilled than Clem, but yet while ahead in 2 out of the 3 games he lost, he still loses despite no real mistakes.
Something is up.
Yeah I was thinking, what is the pro level skill ceiling of Protoss? I would say Blink stalker micros but that only impacts the early to mid game and the then Disruptors. While Terran can do so much with marine marauder micro alone. Also the fact that there are no other options for Protoss to go with after the initial 3 one time use Collosus, once 4-5 Vikings are out. And then you can just continue Viking production if the Protoss was given enough time to build Skytoss.
if you watch PIGs commentary of the series he talks about how much having templars with some storm would have helped against those clumped up marine bio. Btw MaxPax is not at Clem's level (esp late game), at some point you can't blame the game but it have to come down to skill. Because the only way to satisfy the balance whiners is only if the other person they like wins. Hero 2-0 Maru in GSL last Thursday, he also beat Byun (who had way more supply) from a insane comeback that pre-patch would have lost.
Clem has to have full attention, insane micro to dodge those disruptor shots, I think Maxpax would of beat any other Terran, it's just Clem is similar to Serral (obv Serral is better) in that his skill will make the race look op.
Also asking these questions after the patch is only 1-2 week old w new maps isn't fair but we are seeing Hero playing really well w the new patch. Maru and Byun are no joke and he defeated them
@@jameslog3431 again with the storm argument, being countered by the strongest unit in game, Ghost. I'm not saying you are wrong, by most players in the ladder, I think that is the correct answer.
But at the highest level, I think going into Storm is like having the same problem of going Collosus, but in my opinion, worse than having Collosus. You need to get a good Storm not just once but the counter, Ghost, just need to land once and suddenly you got no Storm AND your units is damaged. And then after that if you are lucky you get your Archon refund, if they are not just a meatballshield infront.
I'm not complaining as a player, because I think as a low rank random player, the game is somewhat balanced. But I am complaining on the pro scene especially PvT is such a slog to watch no matter who you rooting for. It just comes down to Disruptor shots or EMP. Well I at least enjoy early to mid game PvT especially when Terrans doing tank pushes or widow mine drop, this to me is the peak skill expression on both ends.
@@limbalicious Ghosts are not the strongest unit in the game anymore, and its copium to keep saying it.
Infestor/Vipers contend with each other for that spot now.
@@elgar7252 Ghost literally counter all protoss units. While having no solid counters to use from the toss after you get 6+. Especially when it comes to ultra lategame, when terran have infinite scan, and keep killing your observers.
Ghost dont just hardcounter high templar or sentry.
They soft counter all protoss units that have shields (wich is all, including buildings). Thats why theyr made at a standard timing, instead of reactionary versus heavy high templar or sentry play.
Ghost should be countered by collosi, not by disruptor.
Ghost should have the light tag, so they actually die to collosi. (or collosi should do more damage to all unit types)
And protoss needs a better anti air unit then expensive low dps high in supply requirment stalkers.
Something that actually counters mass vikings properly (like storm used to do before ppl started learning howto EMP)
What is the Protoss counter to mass vikings plus liberators? Maxpax tried almost everything. Skytoss is just a sad shadow of its former self and yet costs so much
not really anything *counters* viking/lib/ghost per say. you can technically trade with ghosts using disrupters and zone the vikings with storm. And if you’re successful, oracle revelations and tempests to chip away at libs. but it is incredibly difficult to do (esp compared to viking stutter) and once the viking/lib count get this high they can just sorta steamroll toss anyways. It really doesn’t help that tempests/rupters are insanely supply intensive, expensive, and slow to produce while libs/vikings can be reactored out fast
Adding to what already said person above me, Toss really needs only tempest to siege the libs. You don't need to go carriers. You are supposed to stay at ground and zone with storm.
But good luck with that when terran casually runs 15 ghosts in their army.
Carriers work as a suprise switch. If they have ghost marauder with libs, and you suddenly attack with 6-8 carriers, you can just win the game. Clem spotted the transition tho...
Thanks for the replies. Your qualifiers still underscore the problem - there isn’t truly a counter that can be produced as quickly and at the same cost, both in terms resources and supply. Something has to be adjusted to achieve better balance
Game 2 was insane. How protoss didnt fold under pressure was highest level of skill
One of the sickest series I've seen casted in months! As always, Winter raises the bar a notch and makes it even more enjoyable! I've been a massive SC2 player since release, but for the last 7-8 years, I've mostly been lurking around, watching streams, and enjoying the absolute skill of all these players!
That looks amazing, can't wait to watch it this evening in cinema set up ! Thanks Winter !
This is peak PvT! Watching Clem I see the most solid and relentless terran ever, the macro of INno and the micro of Byun in one. Watching Maxpax I see the patience of peak Stats and the cuttroat execution of a Parting or MC coming together in one player. Truely the level of play has never been higher despite sc2s ups and downs of support and popularity. Thank you Winter!
The mental energy used by Clem to controll Terran is x2 x3 more the MaxPax or most players of this tier. If Clem would play Protoss at this overdrive rate, he would destroy almost everyone. Protoss is too easy even for high tier, they don't sweat enough for this victories and complain that protoss is weak at pro scenes because they used to win easy everytime. It's funny that Reynor casually switched to protoss few times and how suddenly he looks better then most protoss. Terran is very strong but in a practice, simple people of all leagues, can't have mental resources to controll it. Geniuses like Clem Maru Inno etc. are not birth everyday
@@defendermd2991You basically saying that Clem, Maru or Innovation like to lose tons of money playing a clearly inferior race, when they just could switch race and win basically everything.
@@defendermd2991 If Clem would play Protoss, his name would be MaxPax.
@@defendermd2991 yeah, cool.
It, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that starting with the first tank push, protoss is constantly on the back foot in combat power compared to terran. This is such a ridiculous and arrogant claim, that all the protoss pro gamers are just not good enough.
Gateway army of protoss isn't capable of fighting terran barracks army which is what the first timing attack of terran is all about. The tech transition into colossus gives protoss like a 3-4 minute of respite until terran gets 6-7 vikings at which point collosuses become one time use. The disruptors are the only somewhat reliable way to go into mid/lategame for protoss. And what is the transition for terran? A better marine with the ability to instantly half the health of an army. A zoning flier versus disruptors. On top of the fact that tanks are still good, and all the barrack units are still strong.
And I am not even talking about the fact that one of the main cornerstones of a proper lategame protoss army is UNUSABLE, it literally doesn't exist in PvT. Spellcaster comparison is also funny. A barely moving, balloon shooting old man that has to wait to deal damage and click to exhaust mana and can combine with another old man to be killed faster than a probe. vs a ... Ghost, the best unit in the whole game.
Yeah, tell me about how terrans are just better.
Protoss don't complain about zerg and Serral plays zerg btw.
@@BoxCox don't reply to defendermd2991. They are either a troll or have as bad of takes as a troll. Not worth the time or effort.
Shout out to the hardcore probe murdering the hellion!
winter kept saying tempest gets guarantee dmg, but little to none mention viking is the one guarantee dmg here lol. viking kills those 38 interceptors easily without any counter from archon/stalker, all ground army getting wiped in seconds with liberator. such a brainded balance
this was just so amazing to watch. Thank you for bringing such great casting to such an amazing series.
Damn that was a fun series. A lot less widow mines makes it a lot more enjoyable to watch too.
Genuine question: What is the Lategame Protoss army against Terran? Like, clearly lib+ghost+viking is the best lategame for terran here (Not that it can't be beat - just that it's the best lategame army), but what is it for Protoss? Whether it's disruptors or carriers they both just kind of die to sky terran so idk
In my opinion: Disruptor to counter ghost and bio, Storm and archons against air units, oracles for revelation, Carrier for dps, Tempest for zoning and Mothership for recall mobility. Furthermore, I think the main problem for Toss is EMP, which is instant 100 damage that cannot be dodged and nullifies storm.
@@schach6666 Ghosts, Ghosts, Ghosts. Medivacs counter disruptors anyways
I mean you're not wrong that that's the best you got as protoss, but it's like going out to eat and all you can afford is mac & cheese. If you could have something better you'd get it
Ah, disrupters. Terrifying balls of death, or skeet; there is no middle ground =/
Epic series, this should demonstrate how op disruptors are at lower level - Clem had to dodge basically all the shots to stay in the fight - big hits completely shift the momentum
It’s so interesting the point at which these 2 gg at. Their understanding for each other and the game is incredible.
1:16:35 is just a beautiful strategic play. :D pulls him to the opposite side of the map and then goes for the base that has the freshest minerals
GAME OF THE YEAR WAS WHEN DARK WON WITH THE SINGLE INFESTOR
RRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEE
Every game with Dark is the game of the year.
@alltat I get what you're saying friend.
But did you watch it where he had a single infestor left and made the protoss self delete his remaining forces with their own tempest?
It exhausted the whole map.
There were swarm hosts. Everything.
Pure distilled chaos of a match.
which game? Plz!
ruclips.net/video/LglepPqdcq8/видео.htmlsi=3uHUi1vsIjaHwUB8
I'm with @@Solaris0071! Anyone have a link?
I'll never understand the fact that the same supply amount of mid tier ships are more powerful than capital ships.
The biggest conception error of this game.
Re: your point about dragoons vs immortals, I'd say easily immortals - mostly because they don't have the spastic pathfinding of dragoons, and that's a huge upgrade on its own
OH MY GOD what an amazing series!!! Thank you soo much Winter this was insane.
56:30 hell yes!!!! :D
39:27 yep he really decided to provide favor to the Archaeology community
So bad too see that a protoss trading worse than the zerg in this matchup . So well balanced . And so fun to watch how a terran use the bioball and the A move . If there is a little trouble then halfing the HP of the full protoss army with an EMP .
maxpax : send 6 zealot to kill 5 scv
clem : send 1 liberator to kill 20 probes
because screw terran units, they imba
@@Conquistador2161No, Protoss is just weak - Zerg is imba.
Insane games, made even better to watch with your casting, thank you!
Hey Winter, just wanted to say thank you for all the incredible commentary. I've followed you for a long while and literally look forward to every new post. I hope you continue to cast for as long as possible. My internet world would not be complete otherwise.
Damn, son!
52:00 “Terrain and Terran. Clem says ‘’I’ am the difference.’”
Bars. First Person Shooter Mode.
The map "Dynasty LE" is so beautiful.
protoss: we played like never before, we lost like always. 🤡
I was just watching Winter Casting a Florincia Game from 4 years ago and wow has he changed alot since then. awesome job my guy
Man watching TvP is just painful at this point. No disrespect to Clem, he's an incredible player and more than deserves his success but most of the time it just feels like even the best Toss in the world can't do anything against a good Terran player. I think upwards of 60-70% of the TvPs that Winter casts the Protoss manages to scrap their way to one win, maybe cheese a second but just gets ground out by more efficient and mobile units for the rest of the series
Its because Winter casts games of just
@@skipperg4436 TvP 40% winrate for T tends to disagree.
Also ofc the best protoss player rolls over people who are not in the top 10
@@benismann this game was from ESL weekly. Nearly every time the finals are between Clem, MaxPax or Reyonr.
What do you think happens with other players?
Also, its not like Clem always wins. While he is on a win streak against him right now, MaxPax also won fair share of games vs Clem. Not too long ago he 3-0 him. If Clem is not around than MaxPax is most likely to win the cup.
38:15 "..distracted by supply depots, CLASSIC MOVE!" 💀
45:24 - The first time I've ever seen a disruptor kill a viking in a pro game.
Thank you for giving us everything Winter
Game 3 Clem dodging Disruptors from every which way but up was actually insane.
Arguably he was slowed down the entire game by not sacrificing some of his bascially deadweight Medivacs for more Ghosts and Vikings.
Great serie + top notch caster = 2 awesome evenings in my life of april 2024.
Thank you, Зима(Zeema (Winter)).
I just gotta say in that 2nd game, 18:00 ish, it was so satisfying to watch MaxPax get Clem to stim and back off. Medivacs out of energy and every stim should be 'permanent'.
I am so tired of seeing Protoss kicked all over the field.
Go Carriers...Terran goes Viking...Protoss loses
Go Colossi...Terran goes Viking....Protoss loses
Vikings are too cheap, too quickly built.
LIberators are too cheap and too quickly built.
Whereas Toss doesnt have any air force worth a damn and can only win if Terran screws up. :/
dragoons are the answer
@@cavemantero What dragoons? Or do you mean stalkers?
Besides just watching this video, stalkers firepower just bounces off Vikings. Takes far too many stalkers to one-shot anything.
You do get to have one "if you watch one SC2 video a year, make it this one" once a year. By definition. And I will click it because I trust you.
But not every video from then on can be a "please do watch this one, it's special". That's not how this works ;)
This one was really good, though.
beautiful game from both of them, sick plays from Max Pax!
WINTER!, SC2.. I liked, I'm subscribed. And yes Jimmy, as always, my day has finally got better!
45:22 Disruptor kills two Zealots, then another kills a Viking and a Ghost. What a world we live in.
Oh my god, finally. I think I started developing a rash when I don't get exposed to a fresh game of the year every 2 weeks.
I'm good now though.
Everytime i see pro level sc2 today, i remember seeing WoL and how much different it is now, some things remain similar but the new unit rosters and game changes for units makes it insane, the amount of micro and apm you need to play against certain builds is ridiculous.
whatever maxpax do cannot break those notorious viking+liberator, its pathethic maxpax can only juggling and running his army from being chased by viking+liberator lol. there's very little for terran to use any strategy
I mean, technically a way to beat it would be storm... But good luck with 15 ghosts on the field.
Would the old fast void rays have worked? Or would we have to get the campaign style void rays that chained their beams through multiple units for them to be effective?
@@ryanaegis3544 i think current voids with speed could work, IF they were less expensive and had less supply. 4 supply is an overkill. But then again, enough libs with a raven beats them too...
your intros never get old haha never change my bro !!
Amazing cast. Thank you
I have been watching Starcraft since 10+ years this was really excellent 😊
first map made for an interesting game. lots of entertaining skirmishes
"Collosi distracted by supply depots... CLASSIC MOVE!!" 😂
P vs anything now has become so predictable that P will lose. Man P really do need some buff. I feel like Protoss units sound cool on paper, but in reality they are all just gimmicks that rely too much on opponents being dumb, instead of players being good with it. So say the 2 biggest AOE are storm and disrupter shot, both require opponent to stand still for a few seconds for damage, while vs things like EMP, Fungal, once they catch your units, it is guaranteed 100% damage. P air units are just a joke, Mothership is utter garbage, Tempest is good vs nothing, VR is good 50% of the time and Carrier is just crazy expensive to maintain. So, P units are just mid, with abilities that fade out late game, and late game units are garbage.
Sad truth 😢
Keep up the good work Winter~
Stromgate renewed my interest in SC2 I guess. You were not really "big" last time I was interested in SC2 but happy to have found your casts.
Is this disruptor shots dancing really cool to see? Justed locked into the video, how SC2 broke grubbys heart..
The game mechanic and units went inna wrong way imo
In game 3, I think Maxpax was deliberately sending his Interceptors on the rocks to keep them out so when he attacked Clem they would reach the targets faster.
I also wonder if putting a Tank would have been a better way of harassing that 12 o'clock base late into the game.
OMG what a series but dayyyyyummmm what a cast! glhf fam and winter plz plz plz keep on keepin on!
I'm expecting EVERYTHING, Winter . . . . . EVERYTHING!!!!!
somehow terran has easier answers for protoss units as vice versa
I always watch when winter says please this is the best thing youll ever see
Dude to see that supply depot bunker wall in a high level game makes me so happy.
ok I am frustrated, because your titles get too baity lately but you are right so here is my angry upvote that made my day a little bit better
I want to see the alt attack a zealot cancel to have a group of them to rush anything. Uthermal has been showing off tips and it's a game changer.
An excellent game. But protoss are just so obviously underpowered and out of options.
Disruptors need a bigger blast radius or a faster movement speed.
I think both them and HT could use a movement speed bonus so they don't get left behind by army and can manouver better.
better nerf disruptors more i dont think they move slow enough, and i dont think the aoe is small enough
any of these videos that are like "THIS GAME IS AMAZING" no matter who the content creator is, if it has a protoss in it. the protoss loses. came to check in 6 months later to see if the game has kept the status quo of protoss being the worst as a design choice, and same old same old
Disruptors actually move really slow... hurts to see.
Best series of the year!!! without a doubt.
i live for clem's "trail mix" drops
Man, disruptors seem so oppressive when you have enough that there's always one off cooldown. One slip up and they're dead though X_X. Also have no idea how Clem lives through Maxpax's intense blink stalker aggression in the early game. Seemed like he was almost dead lost several times there.
Was there a single game where Maxpax's disruptors turned the tide or were in any way decisive? When one of the best Protosses in the world lose fight after fight after fight after fight with 75-25 split on resources lost, the disruptor feels like an absolute joke. Maxpax was never remotely close to winning a game after game 1. It's the same as it was last couple patches- insane blink micro into losing the game. Only difference now is the loss is more drawn out than a-move counterattack to win. While that should in theory be a good change, Protoss still has no comeback mechanic outside hail mary disruptor shots, and we saw how that goes.
"Seemed like he was almost dead lost several times there."
and then like 3 marines push the stalkers away because... idk, ig marines are just better
I just wonder how much does it costs a carrier at the of the game ? Interceptor don't really pay off in the end...
Why does any proplayers still play protoss is beyond me.
Watching those disrupters do nothing all game long and those MMM stimming and splitting is just the dumbest shit ever. PvZ is in a far better shape than PvT.
Learn to split like Clem versus disruptors and after we can talk
protoss could really use some buff
the stronger terran thing.. is that basically everything is long range. so they never engage first.. its the enemies who always gets damage before engaging.
Winter is the goat of casters, nobody has beaten this game in 20 years
The pace is honestly insane. I do hope for both of these players that they have adequate training, diet and lifestyle to sustain this kind of level... I'm really worried for their health :(
stalkers heroically watching... "stalking" perhaps?
I spent my entire day puking, soaking in a bath and laying down. I'm good now though.
Is maxpax officially the best Protoss now? If so, does that mean the best Terran, the best Zerg, and the best Protoss now live outside of Korea? It’s not like koreas lineup of her0, Maru, and dark is a bad set of players, but I think we’ve finally reached a point where Korea doesn’t have the best player for any race.
That’s kinda a crazy change, serral rising was one thing but now it’s not just serral, the rest of the world has finally caught up to Korea.
I think its more along the lines of korea still heavily watches brood war way more than sc2. So alot of potentially amazing sc2 players never picked it up because the culture still values broodwar
Nah. Mmr based 1place is nothing. Even by this metric, Maxpax constanly swaps 1st place with Hero, but since Maxpax never playes offline tournaments, we are left with Hero
As for others, Maru is still the best Terran period. He was the only terran that had a chance against Serral at IEM Katowice 2024 (the world championship)
The only undisputed 1st place that Europe has is Serral, but oh boy, that is probably the best sc2 player in whole history of sc2
Also, korea players are hurting due to the obligatory military service.
I still think hero is better across the board. Its close though. I think I'd also give best terran to maru, again very close though.
that was definitely epic
Thank YOu
Om nom nom
Best caster in the game! WinterStarcraft!
Terran needs to start losing some advantages it has with the way these maps give them easy late game eco. Terran is so broken compared to toss it's insane. Toss has to hit a ball or it can't ever engage.
Maxpax the best protoss
I love the casts and will continue watch em but these PvT games just get goofy once the terrans get ghost out and kind of predictable. I hope the counsil gets the mid game to become more dynamic again. I doubt maxpax, astrea (on a good day) and hero arent good enough. It just feels like they have a mountain to climb once ghost are out and a few Vikings and its been that way for bit too long.
Action pack game. I love this kind of game play! ❤❤❤❤
> MaxPax is aggressive:
Oh wow, Protoss seems like such an OP race how the hell are you supposed to play against that?
> Clem is aggressive:
Oh wow, Terran seems like such an OP race how the hell are you supposed to play against that?
Seriously these guys are just too good.
>MaxPax is aggresive
Oh wow, maybe he has a cha.... Aaaand it's gone.
Stalkers need a buff or late-game upgrade vs air. Vikings are too good against any non-HT unit.
Holy shit on the edge of my seat with this one
"It's everything?" Ah-ight.