Thank you for your upgrade. I've been a ‘Grenadier pilot’ for 17 months now and I'm just as enthusiastic as I was on the first day. The Grenadier is an incredibly fantastic vehicle, especially off the beaten track. I now have 37000 km (23000 miles) on the speedometer, some of them off-road and some of them extremely off-road. It's true, the Grenadier has a heavy weight. This is compensated for by the incredibly good powertrain (engine, transmission, etc.). I have never experienced a situation that the ‘Grenadier’ has not mastered. I am convinced that this quality will prove its worth and that the ‘Grenadier’ will become the new ‘off-road classic’. Best regards Markus
Hi Markus - thanks for sharing this and for your comments. Other people interested in the Grenadier will see this and appreciate hearing from an owner. It's great to hear that all is going well. Same for me, but just fewer miles on the clock!
Thanks for the update. I think making it to 20k vehicles in their first full year is remarkable, considering the nightmare that is the global automotive market today. This situation (inflation, recession, war, closed markets, interest rate rises, chip shortages) could never have been foreseen and has caught everyone out. Grenadier remains a market leading product and offers exceptional value, but they have a mountain to climb re brand awareness, not least because everyone who sees it (in the UK at least) asks if it a new Land Rover!
Agreed. Looking on the bright side, INEOS has done remarkably well - especially if you look around at the rest of the Automotive industry at the moment. It will be interesting to see how they go about brand awareness. I get the same "is it a Land Rover?" question regularly. The other frequent question I get: "Is it Electric?". Thanks for your comments!
the new supplier is called PROMA and will manufacture the seats in Italy - welding and also the assembly work that Recaro had previously carried out. As far as I know, PROMA has bought the naming rights from Recaro and also the assembly facilities. The Recaro Kirchheim Teck plant in Germany is being closed. Ineos had other options to get the seats faster and to do so with the existing facilities (welding in particular is very time-consuming), but Ineos wanted a supplier that could solve all of their problems... It remains to be seen whether Proma can do this - as we hear, Recaro still had a few seats in stock - around 1200-1500 - and there are probably also semi-finished parts, so that production at Ineos can start again in January. The new seats from Proma will probably not be able to be delivered until the end of March / beginning of April. Let's hope that the quality will be as good as it was before. Lynn is not only very pretty, she also has a lot of knowledge and knows how to sell Ineos' big - self-made - problems well. Ineos was the deciding factor here, which led to Recaro going bankrupt and was also their biggest sub-supplier. Ineos was informed in May of this year that these problems would arise if they did not react, but they just sat it out and waited. Now they also needed someone to solve their self-made problems - in this case Proma Italy - let's hope for the best….
Very interesting! It's clear that PROMA is well established on the seat frame side of things, so taking over the former Recaro functions sounds like their new adventure/challenge. I'm in agreement that INEOS would want a total solution, but there sure are a few "ifs" in the mix beginning with "if all goes well..." I appreciate your sharing these details as it's not common knowledge so far. It sounds like its going to be an interesting 2025 for INEOS Automotive!
Recaro Automotive was purchased in January 2020 by Raven Acquisitions in the US. They then moved the head office from Germany to the US and opened a factory in the US. This took a large number of Recaro Germany customers to the US factory as well as all the head office functions. At the same time the Volkswagen group has been struggling and they were Recaro Germanys largest customer through Audi, Porsche and some VW models. Pretty much caused the German arm to go broke.
My local dealer - Rusnak Ineos - has 40, that is forty, in stock. Meanwhile people are paying $10k over sticker for a four cylinder LandCruiser or the new GX550. The problem for Inneos is the vast majority of SUV buyers have no idea that it exists. They need to buy a Superbowl ad spot.
Great point - INEOS needs a mass market break-out so that people can know it exists, and perhaps want one even if it's not the kind of vehicle that they would buy - loads of people love seeing an old Defender, but wouldn't actually want to live with one - but it keeps the prices up on resale since it's perceived as desirable. Thanks for your comments!
Lynn Calder, who interviews wonderfully, made it crystal clear in her interview on Smoking Tire…ADAS will be shut off in the USA 🇺🇸. She can’t in Europe but here, oh yeah.
At least one component of the ADAS, automatic emergency braking, will be required in all vehicles under 10,000 lbs by September 2029, so I wouldn't expect ADAS to go away completely. Other components, specifically the driver drowsiness warning and lane departure warning are not controversial like the intelligent speed assist they were alluding to in the interview and can be helpful preventing accidents. It's not likely Ineos would allow US required safety features to be shut off.
I think @jbaxt has a point that we cannot completely shut off the ADAS overspeed warning - just the audible part of the warning - which is the most annoying part. I believe that the speed limit sign that displays on the infotainment display will still flash if you exceed the speed limit (visible warning), but just not the audible part. The laws in specific countries dictate how far INEOS can back track on shutting down ADAS, but I think they got the message loud and clear that we want less of it on by default, since it can always be switched back on. Likewise on allowing us to "set and forget" rather than having to re-set every time we start the vehicle. Thanks for your comments!
That is absolutely an absurd take away. The interview was an insight into just how late she was to the game and how little she knows. She’s an embarrassment to the brand
That was a great interview that Lynn Calder gave....she should do much more of this to help drive awareness of the vehicle. She obviously is a great CEO for Ineos Grenadier to have with her automobile enthusiasm and very engaging personality. However, it was a pity the interview was not conducted by someone with indepth hands on ownership knowledge of the vehicle, and who could have pressed her for answers on spare parts availability, tweaking/correction of issues in the next model year, and or availability of shop repair/service manual, wiring diagram schematics etc....or at least an available on line resource how to perform the basic types of repairs/services that can be expected to be needed to be performed in the field.
You make a good point as the owners have questions that the press rarely think to ask. Just behind building brand awareness for INEOS is dealer support for customers as we bought the promises and should rightfully expect that they deliver on them - or communicate why it is that they cannot if that is the case. Thanks for commenting.
The brand awareness needs to include head to head comparisons with competing vehicles. BMW X, Jeep Gladiator, Jeep Wrangler, Explorer, Defender, Durango, etc. They also need to provide a Belsraff connection like Ford with the King Ranch.
Good point! I have a friend with a King Ranch F250 and I still see his King Ranch catalog delivered to the office every holiday season. They have so much opportunity and we're probably just miles ahead of them doing the actual work that it will take to continue building their brand. It's going to be interesting to see how they develop awareness and see the comparisons that they make. Thanks for commenting.
@MarthaMansbridge makes a good point. We don't have a lot of track record with resale values here in the U.S. where the UK has had the Grenadier a year longer. But I certainly understand your canceling after the pricing was revealed. It was a much larger leap of faith to take. Thanks for your comment.
There are 3 driving around North Vancouver, blue, black and tan. My daughter has a Grenadier dealer business card in her phone case and busy educating her friends on them. I certainly wish them success. I think they will need to market one with more creature comforts, they can call it the Mallmaster! Any news on changes for the 2025 year model?
LOL - I'd be in line for a Mallmaster! I love my Grenadier, but sometimes feel like a fish out of water as my concept of off-road isn't all rugged and rocky. No goats, more glamping. As for 2025, expect no changes from 2024. Traditional car manufacturers generally leave a new model the same for the first 2 years minimum as they roll it out to the world, and only then begin contemplating changes based on customer feedback. I'm not sure if 2026 might see changes, but those would usually start production by September of '25, so less time to make changes than you might think. By year 4, most cars get a refresh which is where I would expect updates to things like infotainment or interior trim. The big exception to all of this would be if design or supplier changes are required. Recaro could be an example, but I think we'll continue to see them. I have heard talk of a change in the HVAC system from my service manager - the current one is a little quirky. So, they may move such things to the front of the line. Thanks for your comments and question!
How can a car company whose factory has a 25,000 car per year capacity expect to sell 30,000? My dealer will likely be out of inventory before new cars are on the boat let alone on a truck to restock them. I know other dealers that have more cars than they hoped to and are nervous but dealer trading on a regional basis will likely even out inventory between the dealers who over ordered with those who under ordered. I drive my Grenadier daily and interested potential buyers don’t even know what it is let alone where to buy one.
I think the factory has a total capacity of 30K, and now that the Smart Car (which INEOS was still producing there under contract) has completed production, it may have freed up capacity which would have allowed that push to 30. I guess its now a bit of a moot point for the time being. Now dealer supply is certainly a tricky thing as they were worried about being overstocked. Clearly they don't want too many sitting on lots - the U.S. is most accustomed to buying off a lot, but more and more people are learning that ordering and waiting gets you exactly what you want - so there is clearly a balance to be found. Sounds like you're enjoying yours! Thanks for your comments.
Makes sense he would inject money so he can put bums on seats. It reminds me of the Swiss watch companies in the 80s when production was waiting on winding crowns with watches worth £20k and above couldn't be invoiced. So what did they do they purchased these small family business and the problems went away.
Thanks for sharing. It would appear that this may be a case of "the shortest distance between two points". Just waiting for a confirming word from Recaro. Thanks for your comments.
Thanks for your comment. I'm thinking you may be right, but it's interesting how Recaro has remained silent on the issue, or from whomever bought part of the Recaro business.
Ineos buying Recaro - makes a lot of sense. As they then own their own car seat making company. And once a car manufacturer - buys a company associated with car manufacturing. That means a some point - Ineos would be approached by other car manufacturers. As Ineos will sort out the design and development issues that need to be improved - for new car manufacturers. If Ineos does buy Recaro - that means a car manufacturer will redesign the seats - so that they are ready go to into - cars - as they will resolve - the crash design elements and air bags - built into the seats. As Recaro - is at the point where it can;t afford the research and development costs anymore - for their seats to comply - with - safety regulations. Which then becomes attractive to other car makers - as someone else has - sorted out all the issues - they don't want to do themselves. And car companies tend to do that. If someone else has sorted out - all the problems - which they don't want to spend money on. Where they can go and buy seats that comply with all the design rules and safety regulations. That's a lot easier.
Thanks for commenting. You're right about INEOS working with other companies to sort things out as that is a lot of what ultimately became the Grenadier. Engine by BMW, transmission from ZF, engineering by Magna Steyr. They bought a very modern factory from Mercedes Benz, and buying or having a major stake in Recaro just sounds about right. It will be interesting to see how this turns out!
Thank you for your upgrade.
I've been a ‘Grenadier pilot’ for 17 months now and I'm just as enthusiastic as I was on the first day. The Grenadier is an incredibly fantastic vehicle, especially off the beaten track.
I now have 37000 km (23000 miles) on the speedometer, some of them off-road and some of them extremely off-road.
It's true, the Grenadier has a heavy weight. This is compensated for by the incredibly good powertrain (engine, transmission, etc.). I have never experienced a situation that the ‘Grenadier’ has not mastered.
I am convinced that this quality will prove its worth and that the ‘Grenadier’ will become the new ‘off-road classic’.
Best regards
Markus
Hi Markus - thanks for sharing this and for your comments. Other people interested in the Grenadier will see this and appreciate hearing from an owner. It's great to hear that all is going well. Same for me, but just fewer miles on the clock!
Thanks for the update. I think making it to 20k vehicles in their first full year is remarkable, considering the nightmare that is the global automotive market today. This situation (inflation, recession, war, closed markets, interest rate rises, chip shortages) could never have been foreseen and has caught everyone out. Grenadier remains a market leading product and offers exceptional value, but they have a mountain to climb re brand awareness, not least because everyone who sees it (in the UK at least) asks if it a new Land Rover!
Agreed. Looking on the bright side, INEOS has done remarkably well - especially if you look around at the rest of the Automotive industry at the moment. It will be interesting to see how they go about brand awareness. I get the same "is it a Land Rover?" question regularly. The other frequent question I get: "Is it Electric?". Thanks for your comments!
the new supplier is called PROMA and will manufacture the seats in Italy - welding and also the assembly work that Recaro had previously carried out. As far as I know, PROMA has bought the naming rights from Recaro and also the assembly facilities.
The Recaro Kirchheim Teck plant in Germany is being closed.
Ineos had other options to get the seats faster and to do so with the existing facilities (welding in particular is very time-consuming), but Ineos wanted a supplier that could solve all of their problems...
It remains to be seen whether Proma can do this - as we hear, Recaro still had a few seats in stock - around 1200-1500 - and there are probably also semi-finished parts, so that production at Ineos can start again in January.
The new seats from Proma will probably not be able to be delivered until the end of March / beginning of April. Let's hope that the quality will be as good as it was before.
Lynn is not only very pretty, she also has a lot of knowledge and knows how to sell Ineos' big - self-made - problems well.
Ineos was the deciding factor here, which led to Recaro going bankrupt and was also their biggest sub-supplier.
Ineos was informed in May of this year that these problems would arise if they did not react, but they just sat it out and waited.
Now they also needed someone to solve their self-made problems - in this case Proma Italy - let's hope for the best….
Very interesting! It's clear that PROMA is well established on the seat frame side of things, so taking over the former Recaro functions sounds like their new adventure/challenge. I'm in agreement that INEOS would want a total solution, but there sure are a few "ifs" in the mix beginning with "if all goes well..." I appreciate your sharing these details as it's not common knowledge so far. It sounds like its going to be an interesting 2025 for INEOS Automotive!
Great video as always Josh!
Thanks!
Recaro Automotive was purchased in January 2020 by Raven Acquisitions in the US. They then moved the head office from Germany to the US and opened a factory in the US. This took a large number of Recaro Germany customers to the US factory as well as all the head office functions. At the same time the Volkswagen group has been struggling and they were Recaro Germanys largest customer through Audi, Porsche and some VW models. Pretty much caused the German arm to go broke.
Thanks for filling in those blanks. I've learned that folks learn great info from the comments, so I appreciate your taking the time.
My local dealer - Rusnak Ineos - has 40, that is forty, in stock.
Meanwhile people are paying $10k over sticker for a four cylinder LandCruiser or the new GX550.
The problem for Inneos is the vast majority of SUV buyers have no idea that it exists. They need to buy a Superbowl ad spot.
Great point - INEOS needs a mass market break-out so that people can know it exists, and perhaps want one even if it's not the kind of vehicle that they would buy - loads of people love seeing an old Defender, but wouldn't actually want to live with one - but it keeps the prices up on resale since it's perceived as desirable. Thanks for your comments!
Lynn Calder, who interviews wonderfully, made it crystal clear in her interview on Smoking Tire…ADAS will be shut off in the USA 🇺🇸. She can’t in Europe but here, oh yeah.
At least one component of the ADAS, automatic emergency braking, will be required in all vehicles under 10,000 lbs by September 2029, so I wouldn't expect ADAS to go away completely. Other components, specifically the driver drowsiness warning and lane departure warning are not controversial like the intelligent speed assist they were alluding to in the interview and can be helpful preventing accidents. It's not likely Ineos would allow US required safety features to be shut off.
I think @jbaxt has a point that we cannot completely shut off the ADAS overspeed warning - just the audible part of the warning - which is the most annoying part. I believe that the speed limit sign that displays on the infotainment display will still flash if you exceed the speed limit (visible warning), but just not the audible part. The laws in specific countries dictate how far INEOS can back track on shutting down ADAS, but I think they got the message loud and clear that we want less of it on by default, since it can always be switched back on. Likewise on allowing us to "set and forget" rather than having to re-set every time we start the vehicle. Thanks for your comments!
That is absolutely an absurd take away. The interview was an insight into just how late she was to the game and how little she knows. She’s an embarrassment to the brand
Fk this Adas click… there so many other problems with the vehicle that deserve higher priority
That was a great interview that Lynn Calder gave....she should do much more of this to help drive awareness of the vehicle. She obviously is a great CEO for Ineos Grenadier to have with her automobile enthusiasm and very engaging personality. However, it was a pity the interview was not conducted by someone with indepth hands on ownership knowledge of the vehicle, and who could have pressed her for answers on spare parts availability, tweaking/correction of issues in the next model year, and or availability of shop repair/service manual, wiring diagram schematics etc....or at least an available on line resource how to perform the basic types of repairs/services that can be expected to be needed to be performed in the field.
You make a good point as the owners have questions that the press rarely think to ask. Just behind building brand awareness for INEOS is dealer support for customers as we bought the promises and should rightfully expect that they deliver on them - or communicate why it is that they cannot if that is the case. Thanks for commenting.
Wow, that’s just crazy. All the work was done before she came along. She’s just a face. I heard zero from here that would suggest any insight.
The brand awareness needs to include head to head comparisons with competing vehicles. BMW X, Jeep Gladiator, Jeep Wrangler, Explorer, Defender, Durango, etc. They also need to provide a Belsraff connection like Ford with the King Ranch.
Good point! I have a friend with a King Ranch F250 and I still see his King Ranch catalog delivered to the office every holiday season. They have so much opportunity and we're probably just miles ahead of them doing the actual work that it will take to continue building their brand. It's going to be interesting to see how they develop awareness and see the comparisons that they make. Thanks for commenting.
The initial release price was good. But the price rise immediately after the release was significant enough for me to cancel
Same - I bought a year old, low mileage one and saved £30k
@MarthaMansbridge makes a good point. We don't have a lot of track record with resale values here in the U.S. where the UK has had the Grenadier a year longer. But I certainly understand your canceling after the pricing was revealed. It was a much larger leap of faith to take. Thanks for your comment.
There are 3 driving around North Vancouver, blue, black and tan. My daughter has a Grenadier dealer business card in her phone case and busy educating her friends on them. I certainly wish them success. I think they will need to market one with more creature comforts, they can call it the Mallmaster! Any news on changes for the 2025 year model?
LOL - I'd be in line for a Mallmaster! I love my Grenadier, but sometimes feel like a fish out of water as my concept of off-road isn't all rugged and rocky. No goats, more glamping. As for 2025, expect no changes from 2024. Traditional car manufacturers generally leave a new model the same for the first 2 years minimum as they roll it out to the world, and only then begin contemplating changes based on customer feedback. I'm not sure if 2026 might see changes, but those would usually start production by September of '25, so less time to make changes than you might think. By year 4, most cars get a refresh which is where I would expect updates to things like infotainment or interior trim. The big exception to all of this would be if design or supplier changes are required. Recaro could be an example, but I think we'll continue to see them. I have heard talk of a change in the HVAC system from my service manager - the current one is a little quirky. So, they may move such things to the front of the line. Thanks for your comments and question!
Mall Master! Trademark that!
She did say in that interview that you can't have a car without seats at 5.18 seconds into the podcast.
How can a car company whose factory has a 25,000 car per year capacity expect to sell 30,000? My dealer will likely be out of inventory before new cars are on the boat let alone on a truck to restock them. I know other dealers that have more cars than they hoped to and are nervous but dealer trading on a regional basis will likely even out inventory between the dealers who over ordered with those who under ordered. I drive my Grenadier daily and interested potential buyers don’t even know what it is let alone where to buy one.
I think the factory has a total capacity of 30K, and now that the Smart Car (which INEOS was still producing there under contract) has completed production, it may have freed up capacity which would have allowed that push to 30. I guess its now a bit of a moot point for the time being. Now dealer supply is certainly a tricky thing as they were worried about being overstocked. Clearly they don't want too many sitting on lots - the U.S. is most accustomed to buying off a lot, but more and more people are learning that ordering and waiting gets you exactly what you want - so there is clearly a balance to be found. Sounds like you're enjoying yours! Thanks for your comments.
The factory could easily produce more. Theoretically it was able to produce around 300,000 Smart cars….
@@MyAutomobileObsession I am enjoying our two Grenadiers and thank you for the content and the information. Well done. 👍
Makes sense he would inject money so he can put bums on seats. It reminds me of the Swiss watch companies in the 80s when production was waiting on winding crowns with watches worth £20k and above couldn't be invoiced. So what did they do they purchased these small family business and the problems went away.
Thanks for sharing. It would appear that this may be a case of "the shortest distance between two points". Just waiting for a confirming word from Recaro. Thanks for your comments.
As far as I’m lead to believe, they will be the same seats not branded as Recaro..Looks like the design has been purchased.
Thanks for your comment. I'm thinking you may be right, but it's interesting how Recaro has remained silent on the issue, or from whomever bought part of the Recaro business.
Ineos buying Recaro - makes a lot of sense. As they then own their own car seat making company. And once a car manufacturer - buys a company associated with car manufacturing. That means a some point - Ineos would be approached by other car manufacturers.
As Ineos will sort out the design and development issues that need to be improved - for new car manufacturers. If Ineos does buy Recaro - that means a car manufacturer will redesign the seats - so that they are ready go to into - cars - as they will resolve - the crash design elements and air bags - built into the seats. As Recaro - is at the point where it can;t afford the research and development costs anymore - for their seats to comply - with - safety regulations.
Which then becomes attractive to other car makers - as someone else has - sorted out all the issues - they don't want to do themselves. And car companies tend to do that. If someone else has sorted out - all the problems - which they don't want to spend money on. Where they can go and buy seats that comply with all the design rules and safety regulations. That's a lot easier.
Thanks for commenting. You're right about INEOS working with other companies to sort things out as that is a lot of what ultimately became the Grenadier. Engine by BMW, transmission from ZF, engineering by Magna Steyr. They bought a very modern factory from Mercedes Benz, and buying or having a major stake in Recaro just sounds about right. It will be interesting to see how this turns out!