@@JFin-gx7nc oh boy there are some heavy hitters in there. Power grid will eventually fall off. Struggle likely there to stay . Also see Aeons eventually gone. Oathsworn might be the hottest take. I’m going to pin to see if we can get some convo going
The duplicates is the only thing that bugs me . . . 1. Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion and Gloomhaven: Frosthaven 2. Great Western Trail (First Edition) 3. The Crew: The Quest for Planet Nine 4. Eclipse: New Dawn for the Galaxy 5. Dune Imperium - Uprising 6. Clank: Legacy 7. Through The Ages: A Story of Civilization 8. 7 Wonders Duel 9. Concordia Venus
im keeping GWT first edition, the OG was one of my very first REAL board games, so nostalgia and such....just found Concordia via digital and has been a good time.
I certainly see the point of kicking off some of the "duplicate" listings. Very surprised on a couple of your views (Heat= "plays itself"? The Crew= "too luck based"?).
to each is own I suppose, I clearly am in the minority as both are much loved. I might have been a bit hyperbolic by stating they play themselves, I just don't feel like the players in both do not have alot of agency to change the fate of the game past managing the cards that are dealt to you. I see both as having a very low skill gap and once somebody understands the basics the hands will determine success or not. I can see both as great introductory games and don't feel like either is bad just not among the top 100 best designed games of all time.
Speaking of games that play themselves, I've frequently thought that Ark Nova does this. Just choose the 4 or 5 action card over and over again. Anyone else??
@@De_Pieremegoggel I am saying heat and the crew have weak decision spaces. In Heats case a novice player can easily contend with a veteran by simply playing the best card and doing some simple math around corners and slip streams...There is a concept of heuristics in which the calculation is so complex a player has to use methods to discern complex information and make approximations on what they should do but only the very brightest can perform the math and probability it their head. A concept of skill gap nests in heuristics, in that the harder to make this calculation is the harder it is to compete with an expert. Heat has a thin decision space that appeals to the masses but misses in the complex decision department. Lehmans terns; the cards that should be played.
Your comments on Heat and Flamme Rouge make sense for someone with few plays. One of my friends in the industry knows the designer, who manages to maintain a 75%+ win rate in Flamme Rouge even against other good players. Yes, there is some luck (every racing game needs some of this to achieve the core design ethos of modeling uncertainty), but the skill ceiling is much higher than one would initially expect.
I think that is a fair criticism I apply to many other instances, regardless this is a bit of a thought experiment not a concrete "this game sucks". I will say many games need alot of play to get you to the finish line but they have to be intriguing out of the gates and in this instance I never want to see heat again....clearly I am in the minority and may have not given it a fair shot, I just don't have the time or desire to do so.
Agricola was the game that got me into gaming. I've played it beyond the point of needing a new scoring pad. And though it is near and dear to me, it does fail on two aspects: Firstly, if you're playing it multiplayer, there is only going to be one winner and that winner will be the first to expand their family. In my extensive number of playthroughs there is not a single instance where a player with who wasnt the first to expand their family won. The second is that there is only one way to win, having a specific number of each thing; too few and you don't get the max points, too many and you don't get additional points. There is one sequence of moves to win the game and the first person to do it wins. Now, that said, I still love Agricola as a solo game. Caverna did make considerable strides but mainly that there were other ways to win. You and your opponents could actually build different farms/mines and play to different strategies and you'd all have a potentially equal chance of still winning. However, there is limitations to the number of family members and again, first one to max their family usually wins. The board also has a pretty low limit to the number of actions and given that you can play it up to 7 players, you can run into the exact same problems as Agricola; whoever gets to key moves first will win. Now, the one i will contest with you is A Feast for Odin. It solved all the problems mentioned above. Everyone gets the same number of meeples and the extensive action board gives a plethora of different winning strategies. And, IMO, you don't need the norwegian expansion to enjoy this. It is terrific on its own. To me, this (or maybe Hallertau or Ora et Labora) are the pinnacle of Uwe Rosenberg games.
interesting takes and like the caverns Agricola analysis. I never like when games push you into specific path. I think if you put the effort into AFFO it certainly has its merits and it is amazing that it is actually balanced with all the actions. To me and I know I might be in the minority peak Uwe or not it just feels like a hodge hodge of actions that I get lost in. I have probably a dozen to twenty plays and I have yet to get to that flow state with my brain firing seeing the path to victory and antsy to get to my next turn. Each turn feels like a slog. I am sure that with enough plays I might find it thought. Just would rather play something else and not bother.
100% agree on Feast for Odin. The word I like to use for it is “indulgent”: it’s like Uwe put every single variation of every single idea he had into this game with absolutely no filter, with absolutely no one around to go like “hey, Uwe. Hey. I think we’re good for mechanics here. Shh, it’s okay. Remember, less is more.” And now you’re saying they EXPANDED IT?? Insanity.
I think part of the appeal is for gamers like myself who grew up frequently playing competitive trick-takers like Hearts and Spades and enjoy the variety offered by this design. It’s easy to play and allows me to introduce a new kind of design objective (cooperative) into a familiar system. It’s accessible to my family and it is perfectly easy to pick up and play. The theming is also appealing enough to convey the cooperative nature of the experience, which is nice too. There are subtleties to trick-taking and the recognition of play patterns in other players to indirectly communicate information, but that’s also not an experience for everyone.
@@Neon_Gorilla Hegemony is out for being 2023, alone. Just to confirm for myself my own choices, I looked at the top 101-200. Any 5 of those top 200 games with the exceptions of : Darwin's Journey (2023), The White Castle (2023), and Revive (doesn't deserve top 200) would be better in the top 100 than the 5 games I listed.
Okay, I'll take your call to action. 2 games; The Gallerist - far too complicated for what it achieves. Only there because no-one attempts to play it if they don't already like heavy games, and it's expensive, so it is protected from low ratings. And Decrypto - people said it was the Codenames killer! It is not, most families/friend groups are much happier with Codenames. Traded my copy.
very interesting premise I had never though of. Are more expensive games more likely to get higher ratings? Makes sense. I would like to see analysis on that.
I can kick out 5 without thinking just looking at the top 25: Ark Nova, Terraforming Mars, Gaia Project, Castles of Burgundy, A Feast of Odin. On the same top 25, these 5 certainly belong there: Brass, Twilight Struggle, Through the Ages, Gloomhaven, Twilight Imperim.
I am surprised Ark Nova has been mentioned so much. I liked my plays of it just was a long game which now has not made it back to the table since its initial run. Im going to keep Gaia as I am on a run of playing it right now. Castles is a house favorite so I am for sure keeping that one. Thanks for the list!
@@Neon_Gorilla My surprise is that Twilight Struggle is mentioned so much :) I guess my tastes have been moving away from the euro style games in the last 5 years.
Ouch, clans of Caledonia and Agricola are two of my personal favorites and a feast for Odin is near the top of my want to acquire list. I agree that it’s stupid to have multiple spots for the same game however.
If you think that Clans of Caledonia isn't competitive or tight, you and your opponents must have been real bad. Even with only two players, this game runs *incredibly* tight with fierce competition for spaces. This game is underrated, if anything, due to not getting nearly enough discussion and exposure.
@@Neon_Gorilla It's very good at all its player counts, including 1. Players need to understand the economic value of the cheaper land spaces and must also compete for the endgame territory bonus as well. By rounds 4 and 5, players should be absolutely scrambling over how to prioritize the remaining spaces over the other stuff that they need to get done.
@@coltonbeatty6117Kanban EV and Inventions. Of the two I like Kanban better because it actually implemented the theme interestingly, where as Inventions is a combobulated mix of random mechanics with very little theme at all, especially the completely random action selection system that's complicated for complications sake. My overall gripe/issue is that there's no growth or engine building. The actions everyone is doing turn 1 are the same turn 12, it's all about who did what when better. Everything is about timing and just playing the game slightly better than your opponent. I did not enjoy that. It felt depressing.
What should be kicked out of top 100: Ark Nova Gloomhaven JotL Scythe 7 Wonders Duel Brass Lancashire Great Western Trail (all) Frosthaven Wingspan The Crew (all) Viticulture Underwater Cities Caverna Pandemic Legacy (all but 1) Obsession Tzolkin Quacks of Quedlinburg Mechs vs Minions Hegemony Fields of Arle Beyond the Sun Voyages of Marco Polo
Fair enough 😅 Promoted: Caylus John Company 2e Dominion Architects of the West Kingdom Tigris and Euphrates Oath Russian Railroads Ra Fury of Dracula 3e/4e Eldritch Horror Hive Skull King City of the Big Shoulders Cat in the Box Atlantic Chase Iki Battlestar Galactica Cloudspire Paths of Glory Carson City @@Neon_Gorilla
A problem with the BGG rankings is that it is mix of "all time greatest" plus "current chart toppers". As the hobby and BGG become more popular, preferences skew to the new hotness regardless if it is better or not. Plus, there is the blending of well crafted but less accessible versus the highly accessible. Both serve the hobby and have a place, but then one must question whether it is boardgame design success, or general marketing success? 🤷♂️ Regardless, it is fun to look at the data and speculate. Cheers to you for the exploration!
@@coltonbeatty6117 Big Shoulders is probably 18xx lite at best and abstracts the cost, supply, demand differently than railway operation and map space competition with the operation of factories using a common resource market pool and limited demand quantities of the four product types. The production of the game looks great and it is easy to understand. Mechanically I do not think I would argue it does any one thing better, but as a whole it is an incredible piece that comes together very well. Obviously there is some subjective bias, but I would agree some 18xx should occupy the top 100. What would you pick?
The crew is a trick taking game for people who don’t like trick taking, or for people who really want to get people to play trick takings game and they can’t get them to play others.
Before watching what you would kick my hot takes on what to kick in no particular order: 1 Ark Nova 2 the crew 3 le havre 4 GWT🎉 1st/2nd Ed - 🐑 I'd accept 5 Feast for Odin Honerable mention: Terra Mystica and Heat (Edit: from the 35 i've played)
I actually don't have a personal top 100 list. I become bored of games much too quickly to tag 100 favorites. I probably have a top 20 or so and 80 that I once enjoyed but have either grown out of or simply stopped enjoying. I do keep track of my rating in a notion template I built though.
Games like wingspan, ark nova, dune Imperium and arnak have been very influencial to the hobby and therefore probably have a place in the top 100 because they get played a ton even though they are not innovative and in a way jacks of all trades. However they do not belong to the best games ever, because they are not masters of anything. Then there are the older titles like terra mystica, agricula, puerto rico, race for the galaxy or power grid which have been masters of something in their time and have been influencial to almost any designer since and have space on the top 100 even though there are games in the meantime which do it better. Eventually they will leave the top 100. Then there are the heavy games that are up there that are extremely tedious to play but are high on the list because bgg users in general like heavy things, have gaming tables and dont mind extreme set up times or book keeping. Some games are only great at gaming conventions. They will deliver great experiences though and probably have a spot in the 100 therefore. My top 100 would look very different and the first category including ark nova, dune Imperium etc would be the first to go, folloed by heavy tedious titles like FfOdin. I would have more innovative games that are one of a kind at what they do or are just very elegant designs. I dont see the top 100 as a list of the best games though, just as the favorite games of board game geeks!
Why should a game have to be a "master" of anything to be in the top 100? And are not Dune Imperium/Arnak masters of the worker placement/light deck building combo?
@@gregorys9629 depends on what the top 100 should be. More people have watched iron man 2 than the godfather, godfather has more Oscars and is no. 1 on IMDb. Arguably the master of category and iron man 2 the mashup eye catcher easy digestible one. Dune, Arnak, Ark nova are very lackluster on certain areas. If mashups are your jam sure but there are better mash ups like Dwellings of Eldervale
@@Neon_Gorilla I love the theme. Hate the execution. I'll give Uprising a try but I don't think it's going to move from a 7 to more than an 8. Top 100 should be just 10/10s right?
im going to have to agree on wingspan, I will say not sure it is a masterpiece but it is something I would play right now and is responsible for growing this hobby. It actually had a big impact on me falling down the rabbit hole. but to each is own
@@sethkay7019 When I tried it I found the game son beautuful and so disappointing. You can't count on the goal cards because the cards are so much diluted. You can't have a lot of strategies because of that too. It's all about luck and opportunism. But the game is very beautiful, the components are great, the illustrations are really charming. I only tried the base game. I still think it's a good game but not one in the top 100 of the best games all time. 🙃 Sorry for my english, it's not my native language. 😁
I’d kick - Heat, The Crew, Sky Team, Crokinole, Star Wars: Imperial Assault. + combine the editions of games (Great Western Trail, Through the Ages, etc)
Eh, I havent cared about BGG rankings in years. I also dont think people have to feel pressure to "move on" from games they liked because more games come out. Especially if you like game design trends from a certain era.
@@EngMadison I think that’s fair, personally very few games stand the test of time. I get bored and need to learn something new….this exercise is less about the ranking per se just where your personal taste does not align with the rankings the most.
@Neon_Gorilla in that case, most of them, but if I had to pick 5 out of the ones Ive played... Quacks of Quedlinburg Scythe Viticulture The Crew Decrypto
Is this just an arcane way of saying my top 100 isn't the BGG top 100? Or games that I just dont see the appeal of I which case here are some of mine. Pandemic Legacy, crew all types -probably our only overlap, viticulture, anachrony in fact many meh worker placement games once you have Agricola you don't need any more. Sky Team, Decrypto. I guess AFFO is almost a cross over. I think it's good but i don't see why so mamy people think it's the best thing ever.
Crokinole is my nomination for removal. I don't think it belongs in the same category as other board games. Having all kinds of duplicate games is also not right, but it's hard to make a good rule about when is a new edition different enough to be its own thing.
I almost said crokinole out of principle but thought better of it since I have yet to play it. In a similar vein if crokinole is top 100 how is chess not?
My answer is lame but I always think the list you be way better if all the”similar games were counted as one. The gloomhavens, all that. Cutting that fluff would alone make room for more deserving games
There are many I’m suspicious I’d want to kick off once played, but for now: Mechs vs Minions is a bloated toy collection masquerading as a game. Note: there are likely others fitting this description in the Top 100. Aeon’s End: really wanted to love it, but just didn’t like it much at all.
@@Neon_Gorilla ps: after watching the full video, I think we share some pet peeves. It’s ok for a game to be heavy, but if it’s needlessly clunky (or Heaven forbid, needs an expansion to “fix” it!) it tells me it needed more refinement/playtesting. The expression that authors need to “murder their darlings” when editing applies to board games, too. Uwe Rosenberg was a great example: I love Patchwork (formerly the super hotness, I know) and NY Zoo, and still enjoy Agricola All Creatures Big and Small because they’re streamlined and (particularly with the first two) press you with a constant tension between simple yet tough trade offs. Got a strong feeling Odin and OG Agricola would just make we wish I was playing one of his tighter games!
Blasphemy towards Agricola!! There are very few games where you plan your whole game before the game starts (Trickerion comes to mind) and play so tightly. But yes it should just be one spot. For my enjoyment Twilight Struggle and Castles of Burgundy are two I don’t love. I get it a bit with Twilight Struggle but I just don’t understand the love for Castles of Burgundy.
Okay, I paused and looked at the top 100 before watching this video. Didn't see many that seemed out of place. I've played 31 of the top 100, and of those there's two that I just don't get what's so great about them. Azul and Puerto Rico. They're "good" but not "great" to me. Of the 69 I haven't played, I'm pretty aware of them and they seem appropriate for the list - in other words, I'd guess that I'd agree with them being in the top 100 if/after I played them. (edit: after watching the video I realized I played some games I don't own and I never rated - so it looks like my total is 35 out of the top 100 - over a third, so feels like a nice milestone!)
a third is pretty good! I think the top 100 is a lagging indicator and explains things like Puerto Rico and Agricola still being so high. New games need to garner a ton of ratings for the math to put them above these games that are a decade old. My wife may fight you on Azul, I sure won't.
Puerto Rico was near the top for a long time, as it's from 2002 and literally nothing above it is older. In that sense it's extremely influential and the whole list would change if it didn't exist, as it helped popularise euros outside of gateway games. Perhaps it still earns its top 50 as a kind of lifetime achievement award, eh?
I can't say I would argue with you over your selections. Morse so actually agree with you. I have however not played Heat or Clans. But I do not really care if they are top or not. So can't argue against kicking them off. I do think it is not very good that the same game gets listed multiple times. The only think I would have done differently is I would have used the Monty Python stomping foot and sound instead of the kick. But just personal preference, the kick is still very good. =)
So, after watching the video, here's my thoughts... I'm thinking Agricola/Caverna would be "okay" for me based on the playthroughs I've seen, so I can see removing that. For me The Crew belongs on the list, but I'm not sure if I prefer Deep Sea over Planet Nine - we play at 2 players (which works great and is well-supported despite the box saying 3+) and Deep Sea is a bit random at 2 players with the wider variety of missions - I'm looking forward to Jekyll & Hyde vs. Scotland Yard to replace that as my favorite trick-taker. I was already bored with Sail after a couple playthrough videos - love it when that happens so I can avoid a purchase! No opinion on Clans. Totally agree with your thoughts on Heat (and I've played it), but I know so many people love it so much - for a racing game I actually preferred Unicorn Fever. No opinion on FFO, but I suspect I would find it "okay".
oh no sail is so great!!!! play through videos don't do it justice. There are so many interesting decisions to be had and the extra mechanics that you can throw in is wonderful. But it does depend on having a motivated partner to enjoy it fully.
Agree on Sky Team - it's a good game but I don't quite understand all the love it's getting. My guess is that "modularity" is currently very popular in board games, and Sky Team does do that well.
Outside of the obvious duplicates... Dune: Imperium - I really don't understand the hype for this one. Maybe because I have zero relationship with the IP, and generally care very little about theme in games, but mechanically the game is just meh. You don't get much card circulation going, so acquiring more than a few cards is pointless. The worker placement spots aren't all that interesting, combat in games isn't my favourite thing, but even that is pretty bare bones here. I really don't get why this is considered top 100, let alone top 10. Puerto Rico - do I even need to give a reason? It's bland, dull, boring. I get that there was little competition when it came out, but this isn't a best "for it's time" list, so how this one hasn't fallen off yet is beyond me. For more personal reasons I would kick Inis off as I absolutely hated that game, no objective argument given, just purely personal. It was definitely a frustration with the game (unlike my bad experience with Race for the Galaxy - which purely was a player issue, and I've since enjoyed that same system in other games), which is why I'd boot it. Whereas with other games I don't like, I can at least understand why someone else would like it (like Eclipse and Agricola), I really don't understand why people love Inis. I don't have any strongly felt picks as my 4th and 5th game out of the ones I have played, so if I had to, make it a full 5, I'd pick the two mentioned in the parenthesis above if need be.
The only thing I will say is Dune had a pretty deep meta in regards to the cards and leaders you select prior to the game. There are ways to cycle cards and get through your deck faster. The game within the game that intrigue cards presents and how they can surprise in combat is really a fun mechanic for me. I also wrote it off for a long time and preferred Arnak (which I still love) then I started playing the digital version and found alot of depth I was missing. But to each is own, I can see the IP throwing people off of it. It does help a bit to understand how things link in the game for sure.
@@Neon_Gorilla it's not really the IP throwing me off, it's just that it's irrelevant to me. It's neither a pro nor a con. I have played it, so it's not so much as me writing it off as I just don't see what the big deal is. For me it's merely okay, kinda meh, so I am just so surprised that people are ranking it so high up. Then again, I'm not a thematic gamer, so I don't have that attachment to theme in games that some people do (occasionally I will enjoy a familiar IP, but if the mechanics underneath are meh, the theme/IP really isn't gonna make up for it). Like I can understand it adding flavour, but making or breaking a game? Not so much.
I dont think you need three ore more different Vital Lacerda games on the list , just for the representation of the list (no offence to fans of his games, they are no doubt great games) but i think the list should cover a bit wider part of the hobby, for the same reason i would cut down on all the duplicates or series (like pandemic legacy s 0 1 and 2). That alone makes up for more then five games.
@@Neon_Gorilla no I have not as of right now. But when you are in the depth of the Internet they always get mentioned together not in terms of being the same but more as in representing a subgenre of very crunchy and heavy eurogames. Theorie price, complexity and availiability aswell as their barrier of entry (gameplaywise) will also lead to them being played less frequently (propably). Again I am sure the games are great, but having them mentioned together most of the time leads to believe they all are similiar. And while the top 100 should reflect on the best games it should also try to represent the hobby as a whole, and therefore I think more variety is a good thing. I would kick them off not because they are bad games or don‘t deserve their spot, but to make room to represent a wider spectrum of the hobby. But I am totally aware that my ignorance regarding his games might be influenced by the fact that I have not played them, and so might be subject to Change.
I just bought the through the ages digital to see what the hype was about....gloomhaven jolt was fun can't imagine dealing with the set up and tear down of the original. Played Gaia alot on BGA, can't tell if I love it or hate it....I will say it has taken alot of effort to get good at it. This can be viewed as a positive or negative depending on who you are.
I think it was a game that was once revolutionary but never an elegant simplistic design. I can see falling for it in the context of its release before modern board gaming had really taken hold and streamlined such meaty designs.
@@Neon_Gorilla I liked lanc more, it feeled more elegant :) still pretty boring, after game 4-5 feels very samey. But after couple of thoughts I think we can kick 7 wonders duel, brass is better. Still kick Concordia :)
@lowlifehightech822 I've not yet played Birmingham, but from people with similar tastes, it doesn't sound nearly as good as Lancashire. I'd be willing to try though.
Crokinole, Oathsworn, Nemesis, Twilight Struggle, Power Grid, Aeons End
@@JFin-gx7nc oh boy there are some heavy hitters in there. Power grid will eventually fall off. Struggle likely there to stay . Also see Aeons eventually gone. Oathsworn might be the hottest take. I’m going to pin to see if we can get some convo going
So I love power grid and will spread my love of teaching it to anyone who wants to listen.
@@Neon_Gorilla FWIW, I agree with Oathsworn to some extent also. It's the biggest "jumped the shark" example for board gaming these days.
@@kidney-vitoratio9312 what do you mean by "jumped the shark"? I like Oathsworn as a boss battler but can see why it's not for everyone.
I just gotta say, your thumbnails are the absolute best thumbnails on all of RUclips! 😂
you know I take major price in my thumbnails and you are maybe the third to mention them, thank you!
@@Neon_Gorilla you got my attention with a cool and funny thumbnail a few months ago, and I stayed for the great content! Keep doing what you do!
@@miramarto woo hoo that is why I take time with them…tough to stand out with all the content out there. Thanks for staying!
The duplicates is the only thing that bugs me . . .
1. Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion and Gloomhaven: Frosthaven
2. Great Western Trail (First Edition)
3. The Crew: The Quest for Planet Nine
4. Eclipse: New Dawn for the Galaxy
5. Dune Imperium - Uprising
6. Clank: Legacy
7. Through The Ages: A Story of Civilization
8. 7 Wonders Duel
9. Concordia Venus
im keeping GWT first edition, the OG was one of my very first REAL board games, so nostalgia and such....just found Concordia via digital and has been a good time.
A fest for Odin is a master piece. The Best Game of Uwe in my opinion, and It is the higher game of Uwe in the BGG top.
I hear you, totally understandable opinion
I certainly see the point of kicking off some of the "duplicate" listings. Very surprised on a couple of your views (Heat= "plays itself"? The Crew= "too luck based"?).
to each is own I suppose, I clearly am in the minority as both are much loved. I might have been a bit hyperbolic by stating they play themselves, I just don't feel like the players in both do not have alot of agency to change the fate of the game past managing the cards that are dealt to you. I see both as having a very low skill gap and once somebody understands the basics the hands will determine success or not. I can see both as great introductory games and don't feel like either is bad just not among the top 100 best designed games of all time.
Speaking of games that play themselves, I've frequently thought that Ark Nova does this. Just choose the 4 or 5 action card over and over again. Anyone else??
@@De_Pieremegoggel I am saying heat and the crew have weak decision spaces. In Heats case a novice player can easily contend with a veteran by simply playing the best card and doing some simple math around corners and slip streams...There is a concept of heuristics in which the calculation is so complex a player has to use methods to discern complex information and make approximations on what they should do but only the very brightest can perform the math and probability it their head. A concept of skill gap nests in heuristics, in that the harder to make this calculation is the harder it is to compete with an expert. Heat has a thin decision space that appeals to the masses but misses in the complex decision department. Lehmans terns; the cards that should be played.
Your comments on Heat and Flamme Rouge make sense for someone with few plays. One of my friends in the industry knows the designer, who manages to maintain a 75%+ win rate in Flamme Rouge even against other good players. Yes, there is some luck (every racing game needs some of this to achieve the core design ethos of modeling uncertainty), but the skill ceiling is much higher than one would initially expect.
I think that is a fair criticism I apply to many other instances, regardless this is a bit of a thought experiment not a concrete "this game sucks". I will say many games need alot of play to get you to the finish line but they have to be intriguing out of the gates and in this instance I never want to see heat again....clearly I am in the minority and may have not given it a fair shot, I just don't have the time or desire to do so.
Agricola was the game that got me into gaming. I've played it beyond the point of needing a new scoring pad. And though it is near and dear to me, it does fail on two aspects: Firstly, if you're playing it multiplayer, there is only going to be one winner and that winner will be the first to expand their family. In my extensive number of playthroughs there is not a single instance where a player with who wasnt the first to expand their family won. The second is that there is only one way to win, having a specific number of each thing; too few and you don't get the max points, too many and you don't get additional points. There is one sequence of moves to win the game and the first person to do it wins. Now, that said, I still love Agricola as a solo game.
Caverna did make considerable strides but mainly that there were other ways to win. You and your opponents could actually build different farms/mines and play to different strategies and you'd all have a potentially equal chance of still winning. However, there is limitations to the number of family members and again, first one to max their family usually wins. The board also has a pretty low limit to the number of actions and given that you can play it up to 7 players, you can run into the exact same problems as Agricola; whoever gets to key moves first will win.
Now, the one i will contest with you is A Feast for Odin. It solved all the problems mentioned above. Everyone gets the same number of meeples and the extensive action board gives a plethora of different winning strategies. And, IMO, you don't need the norwegian expansion to enjoy this. It is terrific on its own. To me, this (or maybe Hallertau or Ora et Labora) are the pinnacle of Uwe Rosenberg games.
interesting takes and like the caverns Agricola analysis. I never like when games push you into specific path. I think if you put the effort into AFFO it certainly has its merits and it is amazing that it is actually balanced with all the actions. To me and I know I might be in the minority peak Uwe or not it just feels like a hodge hodge of actions that I get lost in. I have probably a dozen to twenty plays and I have yet to get to that flow state with my brain firing seeing the path to victory and antsy to get to my next turn. Each turn feels like a slog. I am sure that with enough plays I might find it thought. Just would rather play something else and not bother.
100% agree on Feast for Odin. The word I like to use for it is “indulgent”: it’s like Uwe put every single variation of every single idea he had into this game with absolutely no filter, with absolutely no one around to go like “hey, Uwe. Hey. I think we’re good for mechanics here. Shh, it’s okay. Remember, less is more.”
And now you’re saying they EXPANDED IT?? Insanity.
Yeah that design process had to be interesting
Finally someone I agree with about the Crew, I think it’s extremely overrated as a card game, it’s not bad I just don’t think it’s all that engaging
my sentiments for sure not bad, just fine etc....not sure how two copies made it to top 100.
I think part of the appeal is for gamers like myself who grew up frequently playing competitive trick-takers like Hearts and Spades and enjoy the variety offered by this design. It’s easy to play and allows me to introduce a new kind of design objective (cooperative) into a familiar system. It’s accessible to my family and it is perfectly easy to pick up and play. The theming is also appealing enough to convey the cooperative nature of the experience, which is nice too. There are subtleties to trick-taking and the recognition of play patterns in other players to indirectly communicate information, but that’s also not an experience for everyone.
Twilight Struggle, Scythe, Quacks of Qued, Hegemony, Sky Team
agree, quacks serves a purpose in my house but really shouldn't even sniff the top 100. Hegemony is the spicy take though
@@Neon_Gorilla Hegemony is out for being 2023, alone.
Just to confirm for myself my own choices, I looked at the top 101-200. Any 5 of those top 200 games with the exceptions of : Darwin's Journey (2023), The White Castle (2023), and Revive (doesn't deserve top 200) would be better in the top 100 than the 5 games I listed.
Okay, I'll take your call to action. 2 games; The Gallerist - far too complicated for what it achieves. Only there because no-one attempts to play it if they don't already like heavy games, and it's expensive, so it is protected from low ratings. And Decrypto - people said it was the Codenames killer! It is not, most families/friend groups are much happier with Codenames. Traded my copy.
very interesting premise I had never though of. Are more expensive games more likely to get higher ratings? Makes sense. I would like to see analysis on that.
I can kick out 5 without thinking just looking at the top 25: Ark Nova, Terraforming Mars, Gaia Project, Castles of Burgundy, A Feast of Odin. On the same top 25, these 5 certainly belong there: Brass, Twilight Struggle, Through the Ages, Gloomhaven, Twilight Imperim.
I am surprised Ark Nova has been mentioned so much. I liked my plays of it just was a long game which now has not made it back to the table since its initial run. Im going to keep Gaia as I am on a run of playing it right now. Castles is a house favorite so I am for sure keeping that one. Thanks for the list!
@@Neon_Gorilla My surprise is that Twilight Struggle is mentioned so much :) I guess my tastes have been moving away from the euro style games in the last 5 years.
@@josesanmiguel9212 haven’t played that one
@@Neon_Gorilla It's worth a try. It's not for everybody but it was #1 on BGG's ranking for many years deservedly.
Ouch, clans of Caledonia and Agricola are two of my personal favorites and a feast for Odin is near the top of my want to acquire list. I agree that it’s stupid to have multiple spots for the same game however.
@@ShivanAngel15 don’t worry they are still there..I didn’t actually kick them off :)
If you think that Clans of Caledonia isn't competitive or tight, you and your opponents must have been real bad. Even with only two players, this game runs *incredibly* tight with fierce competition for spaces. This game is underrated, if anything, due to not getting nearly enough discussion and exposure.
@@helxis I have play on BGA about a dozen times. Not one game spatially competitive. With that said I don’t think it was ever a 4 player games
@@Neon_Gorilla It's very good at all its player counts, including 1. Players need to understand the economic value of the cheaper land spaces and must also compete for the endgame territory bonus as well. By rounds 4 and 5, players should be absolutely scrambling over how to prioritize the remaining spaces over the other stuff that they need to get done.
Duplicates would be an easy choice for me. After that, id kick off Too Many Bones, and all the Lacerdas
have you played any lacerdas you liked?
@@Neon_Gorilla 0/2, with the 2nd one so awful I have no desire to try more
@@ncc1701jv What Lacerda titles did you try and what were your problems with each?
@@coltonbeatty6117Kanban EV and Inventions. Of the two I like Kanban better because it actually implemented the theme interestingly, where as Inventions is a combobulated mix of random mechanics with very little theme at all, especially the completely random action selection system that's complicated for complications sake.
My overall gripe/issue is that there's no growth or engine building. The actions everyone is doing turn 1 are the same turn 12, it's all about who did what when better. Everything is about timing and just playing the game slightly better than your opponent. I did not enjoy that. It felt depressing.
What should be kicked out of top 100:
Ark Nova
Gloomhaven JotL
Scythe
7 Wonders Duel
Brass Lancashire
Great Western Trail (all)
Frosthaven
Wingspan
The Crew (all)
Viticulture
Underwater Cities
Caverna
Pandemic Legacy (all but 1)
Obsession
Tzolkin
Quacks of Quedlinburg
Mechs vs Minions
Hegemony
Fields of Arle
Beyond the Sun
Voyages of Marco Polo
@@Bob_Co Wowsa now replace them :)
Fair enough 😅 Promoted:
Caylus
John Company 2e
Dominion
Architects of the West Kingdom
Tigris and Euphrates
Oath
Russian Railroads
Ra
Fury of Dracula 3e/4e
Eldritch Horror
Hive
Skull King
City of the Big Shoulders
Cat in the Box
Atlantic Chase
Iki
Battlestar Galactica
Cloudspire
Paths of Glory
Carson City
@@Neon_Gorilla
A problem with the BGG rankings is that it is mix of "all time greatest" plus "current chart toppers". As the hobby and BGG become more popular, preferences skew to the new hotness regardless if it is better or not. Plus, there is the blending of well crafted but less accessible versus the highly accessible. Both serve the hobby and have a place, but then one must question whether it is boardgame design success, or general marketing success? 🤷♂️
Regardless, it is fun to look at the data and speculate. Cheers to you for the exploration!
@@Bob_Co What does City of the Big Shoulders have that an 18xx doesn't?
@@coltonbeatty6117 Big Shoulders is probably 18xx lite at best and abstracts the cost, supply, demand differently than railway operation and map space competition with the operation of factories using a common resource market pool and limited demand quantities of the four product types. The production of the game looks great and it is easy to understand. Mechanically I do not think I would argue it does any one thing better, but as a whole it is an incredible piece that comes together very well. Obviously there is some subjective bias, but I would agree some 18xx should occupy the top 100. What would you pick?
The crew is a trick taking game for people who don’t like trick taking, or for people who really want to get people to play trick takings game and they can’t get them to play others.
which is likely why I don't like it. I am a big fan of trick taking
The Gloom/Frosthaven trinity (including jaws) is too much for me. Apart from that quite agree with your picks.
Nobody has enough time for them all;)
Before watching what you would kick my hot takes on what to kick in no particular order:
1 Ark Nova
2 the crew
3 le havre
4 GWT🎉 1st/2nd Ed - 🐑 I'd accept
5 Feast for Odin
Honerable mention: Terra Mystica and Heat
(Edit: from the 35 i've played)
Can’t argue, I need to revisit ark nova though.
Ark Nova is a hot take.
What do you use to keep track of your 100 top games?
I actually don't have a personal top 100 list. I become bored of games much too quickly to tag 100 favorites. I probably have a top 20 or so and 80 that I once enjoyed but have either grown out of or simply stopped enjoying. I do keep track of my rating in a notion template I built though.
@@Neon_Gorilla I did create some app to handle a collection. I want to revisit but not how much value it brings
Games like wingspan, ark nova, dune Imperium and arnak have been very influencial to the hobby and therefore probably have a place in the top 100 because they get played a ton even though they are not innovative and in a way jacks of all trades. However they do not belong to the best games ever, because they are not masters of anything.
Then there are the older titles like terra mystica, agricula, puerto rico, race for the galaxy or power grid which have been masters of something in their time and have been influencial to almost any designer since and have space on the top 100 even though there are games in the meantime which do it better. Eventually they will leave the top 100.
Then there are the heavy games that are up there that are extremely tedious to play but are high on the list because bgg users in general like heavy things, have gaming tables and dont mind extreme set up times or book keeping. Some games are only great at gaming conventions. They will deliver great experiences though and probably have a spot in the 100 therefore.
My top 100 would look very different and the first category including ark nova, dune Imperium etc would be the first to go, folloed by heavy tedious titles like FfOdin. I would have more innovative games that are one of a kind at what they do or are just very elegant designs. I dont see the top 100 as a list of the best games though, just as the favorite games of board game geeks!
Why should a game have to be a "master" of anything to be in the top 100? And are not Dune Imperium/Arnak masters of the worker placement/light deck building combo?
not dune!!!!!
@@gregorys9629 depends on what the top 100 should be. More people have watched iron man 2 than the godfather, godfather has more Oscars and is no. 1 on IMDb. Arguably the master of category and iron man 2 the mashup eye catcher easy digestible one. Dune, Arnak, Ark nova are very lackluster on certain areas. If mashups are your jam sure but there are better mash ups like Dwellings of Eldervale
@@Neon_Gorilla I love the theme. Hate the execution. I'll give Uprising a try but I don't think it's going to move from a 7 to more than an 8. Top 100 should be just 10/10s right?
- Robinson Crusoé
- Aeon's End
- AGricola
- Arc Nova
- Wingspawn
Wingspan is a masterpiece how dare you 😡
im going to have to agree on wingspan, I will say not sure it is a masterpiece but it is something I would play right now and is responsible for growing this hobby. It actually had a big impact on me falling down the rabbit hole. but to each is own
@@sethkay7019 When I tried it I found the game son beautuful and so disappointing. You can't count on the goal cards because the cards are so much diluted. You can't have a lot of strategies because of that too. It's all about luck and opportunism.
But the game is very beautiful, the components are great, the illustrations are really charming.
I only tried the base game.
I still think it's a good game but not one in the top 100 of the best games all time. 🙃
Sorry for my english, it's not my native language. 😁
I’d kick - Heat, The Crew, Sky Team, Crokinole, Star Wars: Imperial Assault. + combine the editions of games (Great Western Trail, Through the Ages, etc)
yeah the combination of editions is a grey area but clearly keeping some other games off that probably deserve the top 100 recognition.
Eh, I havent cared about BGG rankings in years. I also dont think people have to feel pressure to "move on" from games they liked because more games come out. Especially if you like game design trends from a certain era.
@@EngMadison I think that’s fair, personally very few games stand the test of time. I get bored and need to learn something new….this exercise is less about the ranking per se just where your personal taste does not align with the rankings the most.
@Neon_Gorilla in that case, most of them, but if I had to pick 5 out of the ones Ive played...
Quacks of Quedlinburg
Scythe
Viticulture
The Crew
Decrypto
Twilight struggle, Agricola and the original crew.
approved
Is this just an arcane way of saying my top 100 isn't the BGG top 100?
Or games that I just dont see the appeal of I which case here are some of mine.
Pandemic Legacy, crew all types -probably our only overlap, viticulture, anachrony in fact many meh worker placement games once you have Agricola you don't need any more. Sky Team, Decrypto.
I guess AFFO is almost a cross over. I think it's good but i don't see why so mamy people think it's the best thing ever.
@@jonathanpickles2946 correct and viticulture can be booted
Crokinole is my nomination for removal. I don't think it belongs in the same category as other board games. Having all kinds of duplicate games is also not right, but it's hard to make a good rule about when is a new edition different enough to be its own thing.
I almost said crokinole out of principle but thought better of it since I have yet to play it. In a similar vein if crokinole is top 100 how is chess not?
My answer is lame but I always think the list you be way better if all the”similar games were counted as one. The gloomhavens, all that. Cutting that fluff would alone make room for more deserving games
agree
There are many I’m suspicious I’d want to kick off once played, but for now:
Mechs vs Minions is a bloated toy collection masquerading as a game. Note: there are likely others fitting this description in the Top 100.
Aeon’s End: really wanted to love it, but just didn’t like it much at all.
@@seanmcgowan4842 I have been interested in mechs but the toy factor has made me suspicious.
@@Neon_Gorilla ps: after watching the full video, I think we share some pet peeves. It’s ok for a game to be heavy, but if it’s needlessly clunky (or Heaven forbid, needs an expansion to “fix” it!) it tells me it needed more refinement/playtesting. The expression that authors need to “murder their darlings” when editing applies to board games, too.
Uwe Rosenberg was a great example: I love Patchwork (formerly the super hotness, I know) and NY Zoo, and still enjoy Agricola All Creatures Big and Small because they’re streamlined and (particularly with the first two) press you with a constant tension between simple yet tough trade offs.
Got a strong feeling Odin and OG Agricola would just make we wish I was playing one of his tighter games!
So you are making me do homework late at night. Ok. See you in the morning.
:)
Blasphemy towards Agricola!! There are very few games where you plan your whole game before the game starts (Trickerion comes to mind) and play so tightly. But yes it should just be one spot.
For my enjoyment Twilight Struggle and Castles of Burgundy are two I don’t love. I get it a bit with Twilight Struggle but I just don’t understand the love for Castles of Burgundy.
I love COB!!!
@@Neon_Gorilla I know. Everyone does. I just don’t know why 😭
Okay, I paused and looked at the top 100 before watching this video. Didn't see many that seemed out of place. I've played 31 of the top 100, and of those there's two that I just don't get what's so great about them. Azul and Puerto Rico. They're "good" but not "great" to me. Of the 69 I haven't played, I'm pretty aware of them and they seem appropriate for the list - in other words, I'd guess that I'd agree with them being in the top 100 if/after I played them. (edit: after watching the video I realized I played some games I don't own and I never rated - so it looks like my total is 35 out of the top 100 - over a third, so feels like a nice milestone!)
a third is pretty good! I think the top 100 is a lagging indicator and explains things like Puerto Rico and Agricola still being so high. New games need to garner a ton of ratings for the math to put them above these games that are a decade old. My wife may fight you on Azul, I sure won't.
Puerto Rico was near the top for a long time, as it's from 2002 and literally nothing above it is older. In that sense it's extremely influential and the whole list would change if it didn't exist, as it helped popularise euros outside of gateway games. Perhaps it still earns its top 50 as a kind of lifetime achievement award, eh?
I can't say I would argue with you over your selections. Morse so actually agree with you. I have however not played Heat or Clans. But I do not really care if they are top or not. So can't argue against kicking them off. I do think it is not very good that the same game gets listed multiple times. The only think I would have done differently is I would have used the Monty Python stomping foot and sound instead of the kick. But just personal preference, the kick is still very good. =)
I know I struggled with the kick vs the stomp. Maybe if I could have worked stomp into the title :)
So, after watching the video, here's my thoughts... I'm thinking Agricola/Caverna would be "okay" for me based on the playthroughs I've seen, so I can see removing that. For me The Crew belongs on the list, but I'm not sure if I prefer Deep Sea over Planet Nine - we play at 2 players (which works great and is well-supported despite the box saying 3+) and Deep Sea is a bit random at 2 players with the wider variety of missions - I'm looking forward to Jekyll & Hyde vs. Scotland Yard to replace that as my favorite trick-taker. I was already bored with Sail after a couple playthrough videos - love it when that happens so I can avoid a purchase! No opinion on Clans. Totally agree with your thoughts on Heat (and I've played it), but I know so many people love it so much - for a racing game I actually preferred Unicorn Fever. No opinion on FFO, but I suspect I would find it "okay".
oh no sail is so great!!!! play through videos don't do it justice. There are so many interesting decisions to be had and the extra mechanics that you can throw in is wonderful. But it does depend on having a motivated partner to enjoy it fully.
I would kick out both Eclipses and Sky Team. I found the former too dependent on the random map setup and the latter is fine, but not exceptional.
never played eclipse but sky team died quickly in my house...couldn't pay anyone play it with me a second time
Agree on Sky Team - it's a good game but I don't quite understand all the love it's getting. My guess is that "modularity" is currently very popular in board games, and Sky Team does do that well.
Outside of the obvious duplicates...
Dune: Imperium - I really don't understand the hype for this one. Maybe because I have zero relationship with the IP, and generally care very little about theme in games, but mechanically the game is just meh. You don't get much card circulation going, so acquiring more than a few cards is pointless. The worker placement spots aren't all that interesting, combat in games isn't my favourite thing, but even that is pretty bare bones here. I really don't get why this is considered top 100, let alone top 10.
Puerto Rico - do I even need to give a reason? It's bland, dull, boring. I get that there was little competition when it came out, but this isn't a best "for it's time" list, so how this one hasn't fallen off yet is beyond me.
For more personal reasons I would kick Inis off as I absolutely hated that game, no objective argument given, just purely personal. It was definitely a frustration with the game (unlike my bad experience with Race for the Galaxy - which purely was a player issue, and I've since enjoyed that same system in other games), which is why I'd boot it. Whereas with other games I don't like, I can at least understand why someone else would like it (like Eclipse and Agricola), I really don't understand why people love Inis.
I don't have any strongly felt picks as my 4th and 5th game out of the ones I have played, so if I had to, make it a full 5, I'd pick the two mentioned in the parenthesis above if need be.
The only thing I will say is Dune had a pretty deep meta in regards to the cards and leaders you select prior to the game. There are ways to cycle cards and get through your deck faster. The game within the game that intrigue cards presents and how they can surprise in combat is really a fun mechanic for me. I also wrote it off for a long time and preferred Arnak (which I still love) then I started playing the digital version and found alot of depth I was missing. But to each is own, I can see the IP throwing people off of it. It does help a bit to understand how things link in the game for sure.
@@Neon_Gorilla it's not really the IP throwing me off, it's just that it's irrelevant to me. It's neither a pro nor a con. I have played it, so it's not so much as me writing it off as I just don't see what the big deal is. For me it's merely okay, kinda meh, so I am just so surprised that people are ranking it so high up. Then again, I'm not a thematic gamer, so I don't have that attachment to theme in games that some people do (occasionally I will enjoy a familiar IP, but if the mechanics underneath are meh, the theme/IP really isn't gonna make up for it). Like I can understand it adding flavour, but making or breaking a game? Not so much.
I made one of your vids haha. Agree it feels early 2000s. Still would kick terra mystica before kicking clans!
Yes you sure did. Haven’t played Terra but I am certainly keeping Gaia over clans!!!!
I dont think you need three ore more different Vital Lacerda games on the list , just for the representation of the list (no offence to fans of his games, they are no doubt great games) but i think the list should cover a bit wider part of the hobby, for the same reason i would cut down on all the duplicates or series (like pandemic legacy s 0 1 and 2). That alone makes up for more then five games.
interesting take on lacerda, have you played any of his that you like?
@@Neon_Gorilla no I have not as of right now. But when you are in the depth of the Internet they always get mentioned together not in terms of being the same but more as in representing a subgenre of very crunchy and heavy eurogames. Theorie price, complexity and availiability aswell as their barrier of entry (gameplaywise) will also lead to them being played less frequently (propably). Again I am sure the games are great, but having them mentioned together most of the time leads to believe they all are similiar. And while the top 100 should reflect on the best games it should also try to represent the hobby as a whole, and therefore I think more variety is a good thing. I would kick them off not because they are bad games or don‘t deserve their spot, but to make room to represent a wider spectrum of the hobby.
But I am totally aware that my ignorance regarding his games might be influenced by the fact that I have not played them, and so might be subject to Change.
Through the Ages
Gaia Project
Gloomhaven
Only listed ones I've played and were not fun or good experiences
I just bought the through the ages digital to see what the hype was about....gloomhaven jolt was fun can't imagine dealing with the set up and tear down of the original. Played Gaia alot on BGA, can't tell if I love it or hate it....I will say it has taken alot of effort to get good at it. This can be viewed as a positive or negative depending on who you are.
Yes, Tedious activities for Odin. Terrible game.
I think it was a game that was once revolutionary but never an elegant simplistic design. I can see falling for it in the context of its release before modern board gaming had really taken hold and streamlined such meaty designs.
@@Neon_Gorilla It burn like hell in the fire place for some seconds. Best use for it.
Never had a Uwe game feel elegant, even patch work's market is tedious
@@stormburns Patchwork got a decent design. Simple to learn and understand.
@@diamondmeeple yeah the game is simple enough no doubt. The market still is way too much work for what it is
Kick brass birm and lanc, war of the ring, mage knight, Concordia, tainted grail
oh no I really have fallen for brass and Concordia as of late! can I keep birm and you burn land?
@@Neon_Gorilla I liked lanc more, it feeled more elegant :) still pretty boring, after game 4-5 feels very samey. But after couple of thoughts I think we can kick 7 wonders duel, brass is better. Still kick Concordia :)
Whaaaaat MK and Concordia are masterpieces! 😂 Theme is wack but design is top
hold up, 7WD is the best 2p game. One of the most elegant designs out there
@lowlifehightech822
I've not yet played Birmingham, but from people with similar tastes, it doesn't sound nearly as good as Lancashire.
I'd be willing to try though.