An explanation for the sudden expulsion of molten metal: Iron and titanium has an eutectic point at around the 70% titanium-iron mixture. This means that while both titanium and iron has a high melting point, a specific mixture of them melts at suspiciously close to your higher forging temprerature. Also great vid, thanks Alec!
@@AlecSteele science is crazy in the world of alloys, Galinstan melts at -19c so used to replace mercury in thermometers woods's metal and Field's metal also do the same but at around 60-70c so useful for low temp casting
I just want to sprinkle some material science to help you: For your future work on Titanium Damascus, I suggest forging below 1085C (1050C would work just fine). When looking at the Ti-Fe phase diagram, there is what we call an eutectic reaction (a precise concentration of element that forms a liquid) at 1085C. So, in your video, the liquid metal coming out when forging at 2000F (1093C) is most likely to be this phenomenon. Moreover, forging at lower temperatures should also help you fracture the Ti-Fe intermetallic at the canister-alloy interface, allowing you to remove the canister easily. This also explain why you cannot forged steel to titanium. Also, the Ti-Fe intermetallic form is hard and brittle at the canister-alloy interface. This explains why you can remove the canister from the titanium billet and why cutting the as-forge surface is not great. Cheers!
so if you look up "titanium phase diagram" it seems like for certain alloys it forsm different crystal structures and some of them actually have a lower melting point with higher pressures, so when you got it under the hydraulik press, it melts from the pressure. this is just my first guess idk if im right on the other hand, back when you did the other titanium projects, you didnt experience this
Might be part of it but I doubt it because 1. It still shot out liquid while it was in the forge and 2. Unless it was already very close to the melting point, which it isn’t it’s 900 degrees away, the metal won’t go from a soft solid to complete liquid in a few seconds with a relatively small increase in pressure
I was about to write something along this line, or, it might be getting, maybe not hot enough to *melt* but hot enough to get *very very soft* , soft enough that it can squeeze out, like partially melt.
I know right, its calming. I have done this on jobs with people and its cost so much money, but its been so worth the enjoyment of doing it- and so worth the full practical understanding of not only the theory of how something works, but how you react to it when you are working with it. Feels good seeing other people enjoying it.
Two thoughts: Have you looked at the data sheet of the alloy and what it says about melting temperature instead of looking at pure titanium, secondly, uneven heat: Titanium has about half the thermal conductivity of steel so would be more prone to pick up hot spots from the forge.
Yeah, localized overheating and the fact that these are alloys and not pure Ti were my guesses. Also pressure affects phase changes. Or it could be plastic deformation that just seems to appear as "melting."
If you are considering steel-titanium damascus, maybe consider using vanadium between the layers. I have read that vanadium foil is used in cladding titanium to steel because it is compatible with both iron and titanium (Vanadium on wikipedia - Other uses). From the reference: "It should be noted that direct welding of titanium with steel is not possible, because the welding produces brittle chemical compounds ( Ti - Fe intermetallic compounds) which cannot be avoided at temperatures exceeding 500 C." and "The best intermediate metal for welding steel to titanium lining is vanadium."
With some alloys like Zink, aluminum and copper (like ZAMAK melting at a lower temperature than aluminum, even though it contains aluminum and copper). I'm not sure if Damascus can be considered an alloy though, especially not one like that. Some other people are saying that the titanium just isn't dissipating the heat, so it's soaking up the heat on the outside and melting while the inside titanium and steel remain at a lower temperature. I'm not sure how long he had it in the forge though... but it was kind of odd how all of the stuff that melted all came from the same spot on the end and the outside.
I think a thicker jacket will actually help you. it could remove heat from the sides since its thicker, and stronger to stop splooges of hot liquid metal, and as others have said the titanium phase diagram for iron maybe do 100-200 degrees cooler and you might be good. you only want the metal to be molten enough to bind, and with the casing, let alone the different alloys, its becoming fluid. so cooler temps might STILL be the answer
Pressure changes the liquefaction point. Like how water boils at different temperatures depending on the air pressure. I think their is a secure patent that that uses a cold roller but the exact method was not disclosed due to US government’s use on pre 2000 stealth systems.
Pressure generally increases melting points... but, remember, butter even cold, is a 'solid' but will flow like liquid at pressure 💁♂️ plastic deformation
Pressure usually increases melting points, significantly. The lack of room to expand will keep it solid to a higher temp. But it will have a lower plastic deformation point 💁♂️ think cold butter in a hydraulic press, how it will flow more like a liquid under pressure. Now I wonder, if forging it under vacuum after multiple argon purges, at a lower temp (1600°f), would yield better results. But the alloying elements are lowering the melting point significantly. Overheating Ti alloys can separate constituent elements.
Previous aerospace worker. Research what Ti you are using. 6-2 is softer and corrosive with 6-4. different heat treat process also. So id assume some of this would need to be considered when making Timascus.
please make sure to look up all safety precautions for wearing titanium rings. if your hand suffers a trauma, the part of the finger past the ring can swell up and would require an intervention to be removed. you saw how hard it was to cut those pieces in the shop, it will be harder in the ER... these recommendations apply to anyone you give these to
From what I saw it seems the piece failed in an almost brittle manner. It turns out mild steel reacts to Titanium at high temperatures and is very reactive at high temperatures forming intermetallic compounds, which are very hard and brittle this would cause failure at these temperatures since the titanium-iron compounds are formed by diffusion between the mild steel and titanium I suggest switching to a different alloy to hold it like a nickel-based alloy with a high melting temperature.
Just think, this is just a fraction of what the engineers at LockheedMartin went through to build the SR-71 and they didn't have the benefit of the internet. Ooh, that's an idea! A damascus SR-71! Get on it, Alec!
Spent many years cutting this stuff. Slow blade speeds and rates will make it all go better. 6AL4V is a wonderful but tricky material. Just takes your time.
Titanium is wild and you have different types that have totally different properties besides just being titanium. It's a whole other beast from steels or more typical working metals from what I've seen. When you start introducing other materials to it you end up with weird eutectic melt points and all sorts of fun things. I've seen titanium turn into a spray paint which then fused with other steels and basically became essentially impossible to deal with and resulted in scrap lol
As someone else mentioned, iron and titanium alloys can melt at a pretty low temperature. Also, titanium has a much lower heat capacity per-volume than steel. Hammering it will raise the temperature like 3x more than hammering steel. I think it’s really possible that a combo of weird alloy properties + the fact that pressure will really raise the temperature of titanium means will melt far lower than you expect. Also also, titanium doesn’t spread its heat out very well so it can get hot spots that do not dissipate. (This is especially relevant for the compression of the material which isn’t instant. It still doesn’t have enough time to let the extra heat from the pressure spread out across the material. Even in a fast hammer strike, steel can transfer the heat away from the area quick enough to avoid heating too much.) The outer edges can alloy, heat up excessively due to pressure, and not dissipate that heat, then it’ll melt. The issue is now how hot do you go? Well going cooler will solve the issue of the melting alloy + pressure heating, but then the middle will be cold. Correct me if I’m wrong in practice, but I think making the outer box also out of titanium would solve the issue.
Alec got me excited about metalworking. I have now been in a metalworker school for 2 years. There's machinists, welders and fabricators coming out of there. I am studying welding & fabicating. I never expected to find a new life passion at the age of 35, so thank you Alec! I do this even on my freetime now, and will absolutely work in the industry as well. I genuinely enjoy it from the bottom of my heart.. All thanks to Alec Steele videos! I will probably do this for the rest of my life!
Finally my material science classes knowledge have a use, Similair to lead & tin both having a higher melting point than soft solder, two metals can have an alloy where the melting point is lower than either melting point of the metals used. The lowest temperature achievable is the eutectic temperature, which you can read from phase diagrams. I'm sure people have mentioned this already lol, Cheers.
It melts far below its melting temperature because it forms an alloy with iron. You can see it in the cross section of the ingot. The iron shell formed an alloy with the titanium inside and left the rest untouched. This can be seen in the form of a light gray layer between the iron shell and the layered titanium (as good as I can see this on the image). It gets more visible when you remove the iron casing. In the binary phase diagram Fe-Ti, you can see that there are alloys formed with a melting temperature far below 1668C/3034F. The composition of Fe32/Ti68 shows a melting temperature of only 1085C/1985F. In combination with various other minor alloy elements in the steel and titanium this forms a melt while you “only” heat it to 1095C/2003F.
On the cutting. When I worked in a failure analysis lab we used a diamond cutting blade for sectioning samples for analysis. Specifically the Isomet 1,000 from Buehler. It was slow, but it could cut through basically anything if you gave it the time.
About titanium rings and jewelry: I have worn one long term and straight titanium will wear to a matte finish on hand jewelry since it only has a Mohs hardness of about 6 for most alloys (. These are only surface scratches, though, and deep scratches are rare. It's easy enough to polish, though. Titanium dioxide finishes, like the finish you placed on here, can be much harder and adhere to the surface of the metal very well, as you have experienced, with their hardness on the Mohs scale being more like 6 to 7, so closer to the hardness of glass, ceramic, or quartz. It's part of the reason why they are used as industrial coatings since they are very chemically inert, adhere well, and are pretty tough. They aren't invincible, though.
So I am sure you are already at least vaguely aware of this, but the timascus that is made here in the US is largely used for jewelry and it is also used a LOT in custom and very high end pocket knives. When you work with it again in the future, I would recommend reaching out to some of the custom knife makers in the states, because some of the work with it extensively and know a lot about how to machine it and how to do it safely. Some have also been making their own, including twist and pattern welded Damascus.
When metals are mixed the melting points of the metals can shift so if you mix titanium with steal and both have a high melting points and the compound mix of the 2 metals can make the melting point lower despite both compounds having high melting points.
From some simulations i made i think you should just heat it up first to almost melting, then let it cool a bit to forge. The smooshing pattern might be because it's too hot, so the interior is really soft and hotter while the exterior is colder and harder
When you were using the small face mill it did look like it was chattering a bit. Chatter really isn’t good for carbide. Usually my go to if I start seeing chatter is to reduce the feed rate a bit and take a lighter depth of cut. A trick you can use to see if your tool is chattering is to put an indicator on it while you’re cutting and just watch the runnout. If you’re getting a lot of chatter the indicator’s nettle is gonna move a lot which will tell you that you need to reduce your feedrate and take a lighter depth of cut. Cutting oil also helps with chatter. I’m not the biggest fan of using cutting oil myself but it definitely helps with chatters and surface finish, even with carbide.
This is absolutely fascinating! I've always wanted to know more about titanium ever since I was a kid and heard that they used it to make space ships. Seeing you going about this endeavor through trial and error along with several very informative messages in the comments section has me eagerly waiting to see what you will eventually accomplish working with titanium.
Not gonna lie, i buy Chinese made titanium, timascus, and zircuti rods on Etsy. Found out they get their titanium from downed Russian aircraft from WW2 and repurpose it to resell as workable material. All of the timascus and zircuti rods i’ve gotten have all been twist patterns. I like to makes rings for friends on the lathe. Typically, I don’t use coolant tho. Using coolant tends to leave a very chattered finish that’s a bitch to clean off, so i just risk it for the biscuit. Also, if you’re making rings in the lathe, i highly suggest using varying grades of die compound to polish them before etching or heating them. Make an aluminum mandrel that has a light press fit to the ID of your ring with a removable head that screws on, keep that on standby, polish the inside first with the ring in the lathe using the die compound on a paper towel, then put your ring in the mandrel and polish the exterior. After you clean it off and put it in the heat or etch it, immediately dunk it in some Windex. The ammonium in the Windex helps bind the color to the titanium and will wear off a lot slower. If you do heat, i recommend using a furnace so you can control what color you get out of it. 1100°F (600°C) will get you those beautiful purples, 800°F (425°C) will be golden, and anywhere in between will start to give you more light blues. Happy ring making! Edit: I forgot to mention! Is you use a radius cutting tool, you can round off the edges MUCH easier than doing it by hand. Just grab a small one (maybe like 1/8” or so), throw it in a deeper lathe tool holder, line up the edge like you would with any other lathe tool, and bob’s yer uncle! For exterior radii, have the tool facing perpendicular to the part and for interior radii, have the tool facing parallel. I’ve tried doing exterior radii parallel before, and it did NOT go well.
Maybe instead of making boxes, use square tubing and cap the ends. Cut the caps so they fit inside, like the titanium sheets, so you get a better fusion weld. Fewer weld seams and intersections to fail. Also, purge the square tube/box assembly while you are making it, so there is no carbon contamination inside.
It seems to me that the Argon gas makes it easier for the titanium to reach melting temperatures because it's replacing the oxygen in the 'box'. You can possibly match it with boiling water in high altitudes, the higher you get, the lower the boiling point. Seeing the billet squished out like that, it looks like the titanium would like to get roll-pressed instead of being under the power hammer. Cool seeing you experiment like this though 👍
quite fun to see I first subscribed your channel when you were experimenting with Steel Damascus in your old, small Workshop just before you made your first ever sword and now you've gone the full circle, back to Experimenting and Back to Damascus
About the melting temperature, you asked about the melting point of titanium, assuming pure titanium, not about the alloy of titanium you have. Usually, the temperature decreases with alloying elements, let’s check it on a phase diagram! In addition, the stress you applied during the forging increases the local temperature.
Possibly one of the coolest vids you’ve made. I remember Timascus being a thing in the custom knife world a few years ago, it’s awesome to see you making this with what looks to be an attainable setup. I was hoping for a hilt and pommel on a fixed blade, but rings are neat I suppose. Imagine that for scales on a custom folder, though….
Yep it is because the iorn in the steel can and the titanium are amalgamating and liquifying. And interesting the way to combine steel and titanium is to use an intermediary layer that is compatible with both vanadium was mentioned in the article i read but aluminum is also titanium compatibile i believe as grade 5 is an alloy of aluminum vanadium and titanium...
Just use electricity for the oxide formation . Safer and easier to control . Check online but it's super simple if you have an adjustable power supply that goes to around 60volt . Did it at home back then with some backing soda water and a lipo battery.
Courser blade will definitely help, also if possible slow the blade speed down. At work we usually use a carbide tip blade with a 2/3 pitch for S.S. And other hard exotics.
You should try putting somthing as a coating on the outside of the box casing (I hear whiteout works) to make it easier to peal off the titanium. they do it on steel case Damascus, so I presume it would work for titanium too.
I had a thought to help with a bit of the waste and possibly speed up your cuts with this. When you have the billet flat and at forging temperature. Would it be possible to hot cut it with a wedge attachment on the press? Do your measurements and make a grind mark to see where to cut. Then press and snap it off?
The melting temperature of copper is like 1080C I think, but the forging temperature of copper is only like 50C below that of titanium according to wikipedia. I bet if you made copper and titanium structures that could slot together, you might be able to heat each one up separately but simultaneously, slot them together, and then forge weld that into a titanium/copper damascus billet. Probably not, though, but who knows
The pure metal melting point is higher than what you got in your furnace, but alloys of metals can have lower melting points. So if you mix titanium with iron, the eutectic point is most likely much lower than the melting points of the pure metals so the mixture melts in your furnace. Take a look at phase diagrams ;-)
Possible explanation for the ice cream sandwhich effect; the outer layer is losing heat from absorption in the top dies so the outer layer is retaining its harness and the center of the bar is acting like a heat sink maintaining the heat of the layers longer as they arent in contact
Melting point remains the same, but titanium has a tendency to really heat up under pressure compared to steel. Also titanium forms an alloy with iron that melts at a way lower temp.
the reason it is exploding is because you are making a completely new alloy when your heating steel and titanium together with out a buffer coating on the inside of the container. use acrylic or latex paint on the inside of your billet cannister should fix the problem a bit
If you CAN weld steel and titanium together like it seems the jacket did in the beginning, that would be the by far easiest way of welding complex patterns of titanium damascus. Because you dont need to do all those special steps while welding two pieces of steel together, so if you just divide the billet up with the jacket still on, you should be able to weld the pieces together jacket to jacket, which should be much simpler. Edit: ok, perhaps that's not strong enough.
Oh I hate machining titanium big time. One thing, it work hardens like crazy, eating your tools. Drilling and you have a slight lack of coolant, all you get to see is the workpiece turn orange in an instant before the tool is friction welded in the part. 😅
could the melting be a function of the pressure inside? I am reminded of a video someone did that showed that dry ice will melt to a liquid state under slightly higher pressure even if the temp was normally cold enough for it to be solid. I think most of the melting point measurements assume that the material is at 1 atm, could the rigidity of the outer layer put more pressure on the inside and allowing the inner metal to be melting at a lower temp?
Maybe the different thermal conductivity of the titanium causes it to hold more of the heat. Also meaning the heat from the pressure builds up more rapidly also. So, you should probably start forging it at quite a lot lower temperature, and it will improve as you apply pressure to it. You are measuring the temperature of the forge also, with the thermocouple, and not the block. Not sure if IR can be used on temperatures that high, but it wouldn't be a bad idea if there is a way.
6:30 This is just like in solder when you have tin and lead which both melt at higher temps than the solder itself. You two grades of titanium (titanium and steel) are making some "low melt temp titanium".
I do love the experimentation videos on this channel. But I have to admit: I love the music selection even more. The number of times I've rewatched a video to listen to the tunes...
Thank you for these Timascus videos it gives me so much more respect with knife, manufactures, and how expensive titanium is!
2 часа назад
Here's my theory for liquid squishing out. Titanium is terrible at conducting heat, so the billet doesn't heat evenly, a slower and longer heating maybe helps out, a more gradual input of heat, because its probably overheating at the outside while in the center is colder.
The journey continues! I remember watching that one video over 4-5 years ago, before the patent expired (i think?)… and now that it’s passed these first 2 parts are amazing to see the process!! Keep forging on, Steele!
This project is soo cool, and those rings are gorgeous. Please keep experimenting with titanium this is absolutely fascinating! Those rings are gorgeous looking forward to what else you can make with titanium.
Just a FYI, brother received a titanium ring for Christmas a few years ago, was slightly too tight so his finger started to swell. Unfortunately you cannot just cut it off, so force was required at the ER, and that was not pretty at all
MOOOOOOOREEEEEEEEE! love this! more content! longer content! we need a titanium damascus zweihander with gold inlay and 2 diamonds on the hand guard! and the pommel needs to be a blue sapphire!
Not all carbide inserts are same ,there are chinese 10€ for a pack inserts and then there are ISCAR 20€ per peace inserts.They are not the same.Difference is iscar's insert for hard materials can cut marine grade stainless steel with a 15mm depth of cut for 8h and you will spend one with 4 sides.Chinese one will go trough pack in 1h if you are lucky. For a hobby guy 20€ is a lot for a company you just calculate that in a product price.
Does the melting temperature increase with an increase in air pressure(you pumping a gas in a container which could increase the"air pressure) second the change in the composition of gas could affect the melting temperature as the gas could change the temperature in the container(I don't know just a thought it two)
An explanation for the sudden expulsion of molten metal: Iron and titanium has an eutectic point at around the 70% titanium-iron mixture. This means that while both titanium and iron has a high melting point, a specific mixture of them melts at suspiciously close to your higher forging temprerature.
Also great vid, thanks Alec!
yes but from what i have found that still has a melting point of 1400°c
That is bloody fascinating! Thank you!
950°С...
@@Leonid-22 yes it is possible im wrrong...
@@AlecSteele science is crazy in the world of alloys, Galinstan melts at -19c so used to replace mercury in thermometers
woods's metal and Field's metal also do the same but at around 60-70c so useful for low temp casting
I just want to sprinkle some material science to help you:
For your future work on Titanium Damascus, I suggest forging below 1085C (1050C would work just fine). When looking at the Ti-Fe phase diagram, there is what we call an eutectic reaction (a precise concentration of element that forms a liquid) at 1085C. So, in your video, the liquid metal coming out when forging at 2000F (1093C) is most likely to be this phenomenon.
Moreover, forging at lower temperatures should also help you fracture the Ti-Fe intermetallic at the canister-alloy interface, allowing you to remove the canister easily. This also explain why you cannot forged steel to titanium.
Also, the Ti-Fe intermetallic form is hard and brittle at the canister-alloy interface. This explains why you can remove the canister from the titanium billet and why cutting the as-forge surface is not great.
Cheers!
Loving this thank you so much for the info!
Wisdom like this brings me the most happiness
Cool
@@SébastienGermainCareau gotta love Timascus perhaps US patent 6,857,558 can illuminate the discussion
@Alec Steele: sounds like you should install a temperature controller on your forge like you did in Montana!
so if you look up "titanium phase diagram" it seems like for certain alloys it forsm different crystal structures and some of them actually have a lower melting point with higher pressures, so when you got it under the hydraulik press, it melts from the pressure. this is just my first guess idk if im right
on the other hand, back when you did the other titanium projects, you didnt experience this
Might be part of it but I doubt it because 1. It still shot out liquid while it was in the forge and 2. Unless it was already very close to the melting point, which it isn’t it’s 900 degrees away, the metal won’t go from a soft solid to complete liquid in a few seconds with a relatively small increase in pressure
not to mention adding alloys will reduce the temp
@@kadenherzog9727 That's the melting point of pure Ti, these are alloys
Very unlikely since the maximum amount of temperature increase should be about 50 degrees celsius.
I was about to write something along this line, or, it might be getting, maybe not hot enough to *melt* but hot enough to get *very very soft* , soft enough that it can squeeze out, like partially melt.
I love the way you puzzle stuff out in real time for us. It makes absorbing the knowledge so much easier.
Thank you! Glad you are enjoying it!
I know right, its calming. I have done this on jobs with people and its cost so much money, but its been so worth the enjoyment of doing it- and so worth the full practical understanding of not only the theory of how something works, but how you react to it when you are working with it. Feels good seeing other people enjoying it.
"lets try to avoid a titanium fire today"
*1 minute later*
*literally lighting titanium chips on fire*
Two thoughts: Have you looked at the data sheet of the alloy and what it says about melting temperature instead of looking at pure titanium, secondly, uneven heat: Titanium has about half the thermal conductivity of steel so would be more prone to pick up hot spots from the forge.
Yeah, localized overheating and the fact that these are alloys and not pure Ti were my guesses. Also pressure affects phase changes. Or it could be plastic deformation that just seems to appear as "melting."
@@thetaintpainter5443 Could be why all the stuff that squirted out was from the same spot along the outside.
The thermal conductivity of titanium is WAY worse than steel. Way worse than stainless steel in fact. Almost as bad as plastic.
If you are considering steel-titanium damascus, maybe consider using vanadium between the layers. I have read that vanadium foil is used in cladding titanium to steel because it is compatible with both iron and titanium (Vanadium on wikipedia - Other uses). From the reference: "It should be noted that direct welding of titanium with steel is not possible, because the welding produces brittle chemical compounds ( Ti - Fe intermetallic compounds) which cannot be avoided at temperatures exceeding 500 C." and "The best intermediate metal for welding steel to titanium lining is vanadium."
Maybe smack a wrench or two inbetween them eh?
6:23 In regular chemistry occasionally when you mix two things together you get a reduction in the melting/freezing point. Just a thought.
Makes sense
With some alloys like Zink, aluminum and copper (like ZAMAK melting at a lower temperature than aluminum, even though it contains aluminum and copper). I'm not sure if Damascus can be considered an alloy though, especially not one like that. Some other people are saying that the titanium just isn't dissipating the heat, so it's soaking up the heat on the outside and melting while the inside titanium and steel remain at a lower temperature. I'm not sure how long he had it in the forge though... but it was kind of odd how all of the stuff that melted all came from the same spot on the end and the outside.
14:55 Absolute comedy gold😂
I think a thicker jacket will actually help you. it could remove heat from the sides since its thicker, and stronger to stop splooges of hot liquid metal, and as others have said the titanium phase diagram for iron maybe do 100-200 degrees cooler and you might be good. you only want the metal to be molten enough to bind, and with the casing, let alone the different alloys, its becoming fluid. so cooler temps might STILL be the answer
Pressure changes the liquefaction point. Like how water boils at different temperatures depending on the air pressure. I think their is a secure patent that that uses a cold roller but the exact method was not disclosed due to US government’s use on pre 2000 stealth systems.
Pressure generally increases melting points... but, remember, butter even cold, is a 'solid' but will flow like liquid at pressure 💁♂️ plastic deformation
Pressure usually increases melting points, significantly. The lack of room to expand will keep it solid to a higher temp. But it will have a lower plastic deformation point 💁♂️ think cold butter in a hydraulic press, how it will flow more like a liquid under pressure.
Now I wonder, if forging it under vacuum after multiple argon purges, at a lower temp (1600°f), would yield better results.
But the alloying elements are lowering the melting point significantly. Overheating Ti alloys can separate constituent elements.
@@patrickw9520 US Patent 6,857,558 is a great place to start. Timascus is a strange beast.
Previous aerospace worker. Research what Ti you are using. 6-2 is softer and corrosive with 6-4. different heat treat process also. So id assume some of this would need to be considered when making Timascus.
Timascus . . . I see what you did there. :)
*14:53** "That's what she said"*
please make sure to look up all safety precautions for wearing titanium rings.
if your hand suffers a trauma, the part of the finger past the ring can swell up and would require an intervention to be removed.
you saw how hard it was to cut those pieces in the shop, it will be harder in the ER...
these recommendations apply to anyone you give these to
Titanium is brittle but strong. So if his finger got stuck it could be broken off a lot easier than it would be to cut through.
Along with the finger bone?@@graeme.davidson
@@graeme.davidson I agree, just break the finger off to remove the ring ;)
@@dennis6442 *[taps forehead]* can't have a damaged finger if there is no finger to damage.
@@dennis6442 Remind me to never buy a titanium cock ring. (Not that I'd buy a cock ring in the first place anyways though).
From what I saw it seems the piece failed in an almost brittle manner. It turns out mild steel reacts to Titanium at high temperatures and is very reactive at high temperatures forming intermetallic compounds, which are very hard and brittle this would cause failure at these temperatures since the titanium-iron compounds are formed by diffusion between the mild steel and titanium I suggest switching to a different alloy to hold it like a nickel-based alloy with a high melting temperature.
Just think, this is just a fraction of what the engineers at LockheedMartin went through to build the SR-71 and they didn't have the benefit of the internet.
Ooh, that's an idea! A damascus SR-71! Get on it, Alec!
Spent many years cutting this stuff. Slow blade speeds and rates will make it all go better. 6AL4V is a wonderful but tricky material. Just takes your time.
4:46 love me some good ol and very precise description of the thing that I need xD
3:50 , the center of the mass is a different temp than the edges and the plasticity is different. heat it more often. keep it more even.
Let’s upvote this so he can see it
This happens with steel too, but the effect is greater with the titanium because of its lower thermal conductivity!
Titanium is wild and you have different types that have totally different properties besides just being titanium. It's a whole other beast from steels or more typical working metals from what I've seen. When you start introducing other materials to it you end up with weird eutectic melt points and all sorts of fun things. I've seen titanium turn into a spray paint which then fused with other steels and basically became essentially impossible to deal with and resulted in scrap lol
1:15 titanium white was a revolutionary pigment when it was commercialized. Its known for its brilliant white color.
As someone else mentioned, iron and titanium alloys can melt at a pretty low temperature.
Also, titanium has a much lower heat capacity per-volume than steel. Hammering it will raise the temperature like 3x more than hammering steel. I think it’s really possible that a combo of weird alloy properties + the fact that pressure will really raise the temperature of titanium means will melt far lower than you expect.
Also also, titanium doesn’t spread its heat out very well so it can get hot spots that do not dissipate.
(This is especially relevant for the compression of the material which isn’t instant. It still doesn’t have enough time to let the extra heat from the pressure spread out across the material. Even in a fast hammer strike, steel can transfer the heat away from the area quick enough to avoid heating too much.)
The outer edges can alloy, heat up excessively due to pressure, and not dissipate that heat, then it’ll melt.
The issue is now how hot do you go? Well going cooler will solve the issue of the melting alloy + pressure heating, but then the middle will be cold. Correct me if I’m wrong in practice, but I think making the outer box also out of titanium would solve the issue.
Alec got me excited about metalworking. I have now been in a metalworker school for 2 years. There's machinists, welders and fabricators coming out of there. I am studying welding & fabicating. I never expected to find a new life passion at the age of 35, so thank you Alec! I do this even on my freetime now, and will absolutely work in the industry as well. I genuinely enjoy it from the bottom of my heart.. All thanks to Alec Steele videos! I will probably do this for the rest of my life!
try making flip blade with titanium damascus scales its gonna look SICK
I think that ring came out looking amazing.
I knew this wasn't over with Titanium and Alec, bring on round 3!
A Damascus titanium exhaust pipe system would be sick!
omg yeees
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
That'd be bat s**t insane expensive
@@AirForceOne-e8y $$$$$
$20,000 later
Finally my material science classes knowledge have a use, Similair to lead & tin both having a higher melting point than soft solder, two metals can have an alloy where the melting point is lower than either melting point of the metals used. The lowest temperature achievable is the eutectic temperature, which you can read from phase diagrams. I'm sure people have mentioned this already lol, Cheers.
LMFAO Alec modeling his shrunken drooping titanium choad, EPIC move by a legendary blacksmith
"it shrinks every time I look at it"
It happens to everyone as they get older. Lol
😂😂😂
It melts far below its melting temperature because it forms an alloy with iron. You can see it in the cross section of the ingot. The iron shell formed an alloy with the titanium inside and left the rest untouched. This can be seen in the form of a light gray layer between the iron shell and the layered titanium (as good as I can see this on the image). It gets more visible when you remove the iron casing.
In the binary phase diagram Fe-Ti, you can see that there are alloys formed with a melting temperature far below 1668C/3034F. The composition of Fe32/Ti68 shows a melting temperature of only 1085C/1985F. In combination with various other minor alloy elements in the steel and titanium this forms a melt while you “only” heat it to 1095C/2003F.
This is so fascinating! Thank you so much for the detailed comment. Learning a lot!!
I love this series, please do more
Hello from Scotland 🏴🏴🏴🏴 love your videos
naw ye arny
On the cutting. When I worked in a failure analysis lab we used a diamond cutting blade for sectioning samples for analysis. Specifically the Isomet 1,000 from Buehler. It was slow, but it could cut through basically anything if you gave it the time.
About titanium rings and jewelry: I have worn one long term and straight titanium will wear to a matte finish on hand jewelry since it only has a Mohs hardness of about 6 for most alloys (. These are only surface scratches, though, and deep scratches are rare. It's easy enough to polish, though. Titanium dioxide finishes, like the finish you placed on here, can be much harder and adhere to the surface of the metal very well, as you have experienced, with their hardness on the Mohs scale being more like 6 to 7, so closer to the hardness of glass, ceramic, or quartz. It's part of the reason why they are used as industrial coatings since they are very chemically inert, adhere well, and are pretty tough. They aren't invincible, though.
14:34 forbidden cheeto
So I am sure you are already at least vaguely aware of this, but the timascus that is made here in the US is largely used for jewelry and it is also used a LOT in custom and very high end pocket knives. When you work with it again in the future, I would recommend reaching out to some of the custom knife makers in the states, because some of the work with it extensively and know a lot about how to machine it and how to do it safely.
Some have also been making their own, including twist and pattern welded Damascus.
When metals are mixed the melting points of the metals can shift so if you mix titanium with steal and both have a high melting points and the compound mix of the 2 metals can make the melting point lower despite both compounds having high melting points.
Notice !Niobium foil adsorbe carbon from steel and produce fragile niobium carbide. So add slice pure iron betwen niobium and steel
From some simulations i made i think you should just heat it up first to almost melting, then let it cool a bit to forge.
The smooshing pattern might be because it's too hot, so the interior is really soft and hotter while the exterior is colder and harder
Gates are open at 11:00.
When you were using the small face mill it did look like it was chattering a bit. Chatter really isn’t good for carbide. Usually my go to if I start seeing chatter is to reduce the feed rate a bit and take a lighter depth of cut. A trick you can use to see if your tool is chattering is to put an indicator on it while you’re cutting and just watch the runnout. If you’re getting a lot of chatter the indicator’s nettle is gonna move a lot which will tell you that you need to reduce your feedrate and take a lighter depth of cut. Cutting oil also helps with chatter. I’m not the biggest fan of using cutting oil myself but it definitely helps with chatters and surface finish, even with carbide.
This is absolutely fascinating! I've always wanted to know more about titanium ever since I was a kid and heard that they used it to make space ships. Seeing you going about this endeavor through trial and error along with several very informative messages in the comments section has me eagerly waiting to see what you will eventually accomplish working with titanium.
6:17 Is it possible that when you press it, it heats up? Kinda like when you forge steel. Or the there’s more thermal mass?
7:59 “we’re not gonna start a titanium fire” proceeds to blowtorch titanium chips not 60 seconds later
8:30 "titanium chips are dangerous... look at them go!" lol
Not gonna lie, i buy Chinese made titanium, timascus, and zircuti rods on Etsy. Found out they get their titanium from downed Russian aircraft from WW2 and repurpose it to resell as workable material. All of the timascus and zircuti rods i’ve gotten have all been twist patterns. I like to makes rings for friends on the lathe. Typically, I don’t use coolant tho. Using coolant tends to leave a very chattered finish that’s a bitch to clean off, so i just risk it for the biscuit. Also, if you’re making rings in the lathe, i highly suggest using varying grades of die compound to polish them before etching or heating them. Make an aluminum mandrel that has a light press fit to the ID of your ring with a removable head that screws on, keep that on standby, polish the inside first with the ring in the lathe using the die compound on a paper towel, then put your ring in the mandrel and polish the exterior. After you clean it off and put it in the heat or etch it, immediately dunk it in some Windex. The ammonium in the Windex helps bind the color to the titanium and will wear off a lot slower. If you do heat, i recommend using a furnace so you can control what color you get out of it. 1100°F (600°C) will get you those beautiful purples, 800°F (425°C) will be golden, and anywhere in between will start to give you more light blues. Happy ring making!
Edit: I forgot to mention! Is you use a radius cutting tool, you can round off the edges MUCH easier than doing it by hand. Just grab a small one (maybe like 1/8” or so), throw it in a deeper lathe tool holder, line up the edge like you would with any other lathe tool, and bob’s yer uncle! For exterior radii, have the tool facing perpendicular to the part and for interior radii, have the tool facing parallel. I’ve tried doing exterior radii parallel before, and it did NOT go well.
Should be enough of the end material left to make the finest sewing needle ever made. :)
1:05 reminds me of my ex
Maybe instead of making boxes, use square tubing and cap the ends. Cut the caps so they fit inside, like the titanium sheets, so you get a better fusion weld. Fewer weld seams and intersections to fail. Also, purge the square tube/box assembly while you are making it, so there is no carbon contamination inside.
It seems to me that the Argon gas makes it easier for the titanium to reach melting temperatures because it's replacing the oxygen in the 'box'. You can possibly match it with boiling water in high altitudes, the higher you get, the lower the boiling point.
Seeing the billet squished out like that, it looks like the titanium would like to get roll-pressed instead of being under the power hammer.
Cool seeing you experiment like this though 👍
quite fun to see
I first subscribed your channel when you were experimenting with Steel Damascus in your old, small Workshop just before you made your first ever sword and now you've gone the full circle, back to Experimenting and Back to Damascus
Love the lighting...
13:10 considering the former billet did some exploding in the forge, having Yogo lay behind it may be suboptimal.
9:15
You go the same route as Electro-Boom.
I don't know if I should or am allowed to, but I like that.😂
You need to feed your tool faster when you’re milling it. It’s wearing out your tool because it’s just rubbing and generating a lot of heat.
If memory serves, titanium cutting speed is roughly 3 times faster SFM than alloy steel.
About the melting temperature, you asked about the melting point of titanium, assuming pure titanium, not about the alloy of titanium you have. Usually, the temperature decreases with alloying elements, let’s check it on a phase diagram! In addition, the stress you applied during the forging increases the local temperature.
Possibly one of the coolest vids you’ve made. I remember Timascus being a thing in the custom knife world a few years ago, it’s awesome to see you making this with what looks to be an attainable setup. I was hoping for a hilt and pommel on a fixed blade, but rings are neat I suppose. Imagine that for scales on a custom folder, though….
Yep it is because the iorn in the steel can and the titanium are amalgamating and liquifying.
And interesting the way to combine steel and titanium is to use an intermediary layer that is compatible with both vanadium was mentioned in the article i read but aluminum is also titanium compatibile i believe as grade 5 is an alloy of aluminum vanadium and titanium...
I don't think titanium and steel amalgamate at all. If they did, then how could he have made Damascus?
Just use electricity for the oxide formation . Safer and easier to control . Check online but it's super simple if you have an adjustable power supply that goes to around 60volt . Did it at home back then with some backing soda water and a lipo battery.
Just when I wrote this the part of the video came up 😅😅😅
6:12 just a hunch: that's the melting point of pure titanium. Whatever your alloy is melts significantly lower than that
Courser blade will definitely help, also if possible slow the blade speed down. At work we usually use a carbide tip blade with a 2/3 pitch for S.S. And other hard exotics.
I believe faster is the way to go, SFM for cutting titanium is roughly 3 times faster than alloy steel, iirc.
Can those splinters and shavings be used to make Damascus ?
You should try putting somthing as a coating on the outside of the box casing (I hear whiteout works) to make it easier to peal off the titanium.
they do it on steel case Damascus, so I presume it would work for titanium too.
I had a thought to help with a bit of the waste and possibly speed up your cuts with this. When you have the billet flat and at forging temperature. Would it be possible to hot cut it with a wedge attachment on the press? Do your measurements and make a grind mark to see where to cut. Then press and snap it off?
The melting temperature of copper is like 1080C I think, but the forging temperature of copper is only like 50C below that of titanium according to wikipedia.
I bet if you made copper and titanium structures that could slot together, you might be able to heat each one up separately but simultaneously, slot them together, and then forge weld that into a titanium/copper damascus billet.
Probably not, though, but who knows
The pure metal melting point is higher than what you got in your furnace, but alloys of metals can have lower melting points. So if you mix titanium with iron, the eutectic point is most likely much lower than the melting points of the pure metals so the mixture melts in your furnace. Take a look at phase diagrams ;-)
Possible explanation for the ice cream sandwhich effect; the outer layer is losing heat from absorption in the top dies so the outer layer is retaining its harness and the center of the bar is acting like a heat sink maintaining the heat of the layers longer as they arent in contact
lower melting point due to high pressure inside the billet from the impact of the power hammer?
Melting point remains the same, but titanium has a tendency to really heat up under pressure compared to steel. Also titanium forms an alloy with iron that melts at a way lower temp.
If you’re purging with Gas also atmospheric pressure will affect all heating parts.
the reason it is exploding is because you are making a completely new alloy when your heating steel and titanium together with out a buffer coating on the inside of the container. use acrylic or latex paint on the inside of your billet cannister should fix the problem a bit
If you CAN weld steel and titanium together like it seems the jacket did in the beginning, that would be the by far easiest way of welding complex patterns of titanium damascus.
Because you dont need to do all those special steps while welding two pieces of steel together, so if you just divide the billet up with the jacket still on, you should be able to weld the pieces together jacket to jacket, which should be much simpler.
Edit: ok, perhaps that's not strong enough.
Grande 2 and 5 are alloys so the melting point might lower or higher for any given mixture
I like that you cool your band-saw with Brawndo.. it's what band-saws crave.
Great video Alec , the rings look fantastic .
Low rpm fast feed, and shallow cuts for milling. And try diamond for cutting
Oh I hate machining titanium big time. One thing, it work hardens like crazy, eating your tools. Drilling and you have a slight lack of coolant, all you get to see is the workpiece turn orange in an instant before the tool is friction welded in the part. 😅
could the melting be a function of the pressure inside? I am reminded of a video someone did that showed that dry ice will melt to a liquid state under slightly higher pressure even if the temp was normally cold enough for it to be solid. I think most of the melting point measurements assume that the material is at 1 atm, could the rigidity of the outer layer put more pressure on the inside and allowing the inner metal to be melting at a lower temp?
More of this content please! I love the beautiful titanium
Alloys have lower melting temp. Aluminum and other alloying elements lower it greatly.
WoopWoop! Forging!
These rings are beautiful
For real. That was crazy to see how amazing it came out.
Just an FYI, phase change is a function of heat AND pressure. It may be 900 degrees below melting, but is that below melting at a higher pressure?
Maybe the different thermal conductivity of the titanium causes it to hold more of the heat. Also meaning the heat from the pressure builds up more rapidly also. So, you should probably start forging it at quite a lot lower temperature, and it will improve as you apply pressure to it. You are measuring the temperature of the forge also, with the thermocouple, and not the block. Not sure if IR can be used on temperatures that high, but it wouldn't be a bad idea if there is a way.
Yeah, you can see how bad it starts off and then how much better it gets as it cools.
6:30 This is just like in solder when you have tin and lead which both melt at higher temps than the solder itself. You two grades of titanium (titanium and steel) are making some "low melt temp titanium".
Brilliant! Love the titanium series. Keep going
I do love the experimentation videos on this channel. But I have to admit: I love the music selection even more. The number of times I've rewatched a video to listen to the tunes...
Thank you for these Timascus videos it gives me so much more respect with knife, manufactures, and how expensive titanium is!
Here's my theory for liquid squishing out. Titanium is terrible at conducting heat, so the billet doesn't heat evenly, a slower and longer heating maybe helps out, a more gradual input of heat, because its probably overheating at the outside while in the center is colder.
Oh Yeah!!! Thanks Alec!!!
The journey continues! I remember watching that one video over 4-5 years ago, before the patent expired (i think?)… and now that it’s passed these first 2 parts are amazing to see the process!! Keep forging on, Steele!
This project is soo cool, and those rings are gorgeous. Please keep experimenting with titanium this is absolutely fascinating! Those rings are gorgeous looking forward to what else you can make with titanium.
Just a FYI, brother received a titanium ring for Christmas a few years ago, was slightly too tight so his finger started to swell.
Unfortunately you cannot just cut it off, so force was required at the ER, and that was not pretty at all
Maybe a thicker steel at the end of the jacket to prevent oozing?
Also 14:54 that is naughty.
Use a surface grinder or boron nitrude
MOOOOOOOREEEEEEEEE! love this! more content! longer content! we need a titanium damascus zweihander with gold inlay and 2 diamonds on the hand guard! and the pommel needs to be a blue sapphire!
The added heat from the pressure of your press it the problem. Try a lower heat, and hammer it.
Are you using an argon mix or 100% argon? That would be my first choice to look at.. also try and stop the argon flow when hammering.
You'd need a script to monitor the website to buy this stuff.. that ring is juicy
Not all carbide inserts are same ,there are chinese 10€ for a pack inserts and then there are ISCAR 20€ per peace inserts.They are not the same.Difference is iscar's insert for hard materials can cut marine grade stainless steel with a 15mm depth of cut for 8h and you will spend one with 4 sides.Chinese one will go trough pack in 1h if you are lucky.
For a hobby guy 20€ is a lot for a company you just calculate that in a product price.
You must have one of the best comment sections on this platform Alec, just look at all that glorious information! Keep these coming!
Can the heat added by the press increase the temperature that much to bring it to melting point?
Does the melting temperature increase with an increase in air pressure(you pumping a gas in a container which could increase the"air pressure) second the change in the composition of gas could affect the melting temperature as the gas could change the temperature in the container(I don't know just a thought it two)