E85 vs Gas Performance Testing | Stage 2 Predator 212 Comparison
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2019
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How much performance does E85 fuel add on a small engine? Specifically a stage 2 Predator 212cc engine. Today, we're finding out! We run our engine on 95 octane gasoline (performance gains are minimal on 95 vs 93) using a 22mm carburetor, then we switch to our 26mm carburetor tuned for E85. We're betting that the 26mm carburetor by itself won't add performance over the 22mm on this application because the head is stock, and we aren't using a really aggressive valve spring or cam setup.
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I feel like you guys need a little dyno to test the actually WHP of your builds.
@elsie bond I agree, its probably a lot. I really enjoy watching numbers as more things get added or upgraded. The butt dyno is the real teast, but i do love number.
Warped Perceptions(the acrylic head guys) built a home-made dyno with a brake attached to a scale(simplified description). They'd bog the motor with the brake and measure how many pounds the scale pulled. Then used math to get HP. C&C could build one no problem.
@elsie bond look up 2strokestuffing, dude sells a $10 arduino shield to build a motorcycle dyno, could easily work on a go cart.
They Dyno’d the rail so they can definately do it
Definitely should build a small engine dyno! Would be great content!
Topspeed is probably because 4mm bigger carb on e85. and look at the ignition plug at gasoline.. it is running to rich on gasoline meaning less power.
what this guy said
Plus they can run way more timing advance with the e85. Still dont understand why they didnt do the test with the same carb ... and why they didnt tune both carbs and ignition to get a real apple to apple comparison
Run gas in it with the bigger carb to see how the numbers compare.
Also which this doesn't probably make a huge difference but it could have contributed to the 1 mile an hour but the fact that e85 does help cool off intake air temps and if it's cooling that air then they could be getting a higher density of air which can get you a little more power
Too rich is usually needed on gasoline and lots of compression.
The 2% increase is due to the 26mm vs the 22mm carb more air and fuel equals more power. the e85 advantage is more timing and less chance of detonation. Also when the fuel atomizes it gets colder which helps drop intake air temps for a slight gain that way.
They need more compression to that fuel
@@nicolasp7395 true. if it's really 105+ octane, you need 13.5 to 1 to make use of it.
But if the engine's head is the airflow restriction, then the larger 26mm carburetor won't make a difference from an airflow perspective- but I guess it can sneak a little more air in, hence the top speed increase. Thanks!
Then it should have more than 2 percent it's around 25 percent more fuel, and air. So there for it should be running where e85 needs to
@@CarsandCameras I know this is a few months old, was searching for a true e85 build. Obviously that wasn't what was exercised here. Just in general you would want an Alky port to be 8-12 percent bigger, more duration on your exhaust lobe and a good bump in compression to take advantage of how cool the fuel runs. Would be cool to see a legit dedicated build with those basic things in mind.
Big thanks to Ridge for sending me this wallet and supporting the channel! Here’s the site if you
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It's been found out, crank case presure due to increased blow by
(High RPM'S) & INCREASES in compression cause extra stress on side cover & bolts tend to loosen up ??? The stud kit & Billet side cover. Tends to cure the problem. Venting the case is extremely important. Large vent hose & catch can. Good show guys.
agreed.
Just a random thought... y’all need to buy your folks a few fainting goats to go with the chickens; it would be totally awesome to see them faint every time y’all run through the yard! 🤣
Congrats on the new C&CGP lap record!
VA Outdoors Sportsman I’m not usually one for terrorizing animals. But this would be gold for at least a video 😂
That’s a horrible idea..
I hope they get at least 4 of them. Who doesn’t Love fainting goats. Haha.✌️
E85 has less energy than gasoline. This in practice means its essentially higher octane. When run through a flex fuel vehicle, this shows itself as less power and lower mpg.
When used in an engine that has a proper tune however, it allows for high compression, higher boost and more power. That said, a car tuned for e85 shouldn't be using that same tune to run traditional pump gas.
octane has to do with how fast a fuel burns and nothing to do with energy density
@@philtripe if you did, let me break it down Barnie style. Less energy means the flame front is less energetic. This, in practice, presents itself the same as high octane fuel. The flame front from the point of ignition moves slower, helping to prevent detonation. So, essentially, it's like running higher octane fuel.
@@philtripe fuel does to a degree have energy, but it all depends on how the engine utilizes the fuel.
@@philtripe That's false. Octane ratings designate a fuel's resistance to flash ignition by heat - resistance to pre ignition. It has nothing to do with how much energy a fuel contains. You can compress higher octane fuels more and thus make more power. E85 has a MUCH higher octane rating than premium pump gas despite being less energy dense. You can make more power with it because you can advance ignition timing more without causing knock.
You want the spark to ignite the air fuel mixture, not the heat from compression. The more air and fuel you can compress without detonating, the more power you can make, which is why you can make more power on E85. You can squeeze more of it into a smaller space and still ignite it when you want to.
Only partially true. The stoichiometric ratio of ethanol is such that you need more fuel and less air to have a complete combustion, hence the drop in fuel economy, but because you have a richer mixture of fuel, you gain power over gasoline when E85 is compressed to the same ratio as gasoline. Not to mention that you can advance timing to make more power because of E85 superior knock resistance (octane rating). Worse fuel economy? Yes. Definitely, but flex fuel vehicles have dozens of different fuel and ignition maps in the ECU to make the most of whatever the alcohol content of the fuel happens to be. You see a slight gain in power over gasoline in most vehicles because ignition timing is advanced and you are compressing more fuel than air as compared to gasoline.
That 1mph extra is within margin of error for the GPS chip in side the phone. You would need to do multiple runs to truly see if there is a difference. You could also look at measuring the engine RPM to see if E85 has a slightly higher RPM as that would also give the extra 1mph.
100% agree on the GPS.
Higher RPM would add top speed with any gear ratio. They need a Tach so they can read it real time.
@@t-townmini4939 tach, and a lambda sensor...
seriously they should run two carbs of the SAME size.
@Joe Shmo A lil' harsh Shmo, but correct.
Annnnd, speed on these bikes wont increase unless theres an RPM increase... e85 wont increase available RPM, but torque/power is increased. Agreed
I LOVE the mix in of the data you've collected. It's just enough to not bore me but gives me another way to compare and decipher the information.
just wanted to reflect a bit at how far you guys have come in only a couple of years. hell yeah guys keep at it!
WOW...You guys are RADICAL...!!!!...Love the Builds!!!
Hello,
Fun video. Fine presentation as always.
Test results arguable. That's not a real test, only good entertainment.
I admire the fact this team stays together for this long.
Cheers from Belgium.
Holy cow! That first pass John did on the pump gas was amazing! Drifted every corner perfectly without losing power, over steering, or under steering. Oh yeah, it'll be fine!
Edit: the first comment I posted was before I saw the second run with the E85. That was an absolutely Stellar run as well! Great driving!
That would be fun!!
I'm surprised that the smooth tires held on the grass ..but on cornering along curve at speed works. But damm those trees don't give much... I would prefer open area...
Donald Powers agreed but safety isn’t fun... 😎 lol
Yes. Smooth equals speed.
@@donaldpowers3314 It would suck a lot to catch one of those trees.
Nice driving!
Love all the vids
That intro was fire🔥🔥🔥🔥
You guys are friggin great...just started watching a couple weeks ago. Picked up some used go-karts for my boys and I'm looking forward to working on them with my boys. 10 & 8. Keep it going 🤙
That was impressive and it sounds great. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Hell yeah that first run on gr. prix was stellar.
I've been following you guys for a while, keep it up. Love the video's
I'm binge watching y'alls videos at work😂
Some feedback for you guys the reason E85 makes more power is not because of the fuel it's because it lets you run more timing it doesn't detonate as early as gasoline
The fuel itself absolutely makes the difference. The octane rating of 105, latent heat vaporization properties, it’s forgiving, and the lower AFR all contribute to better power production
Love the vids guys !!!! Keep em up !!
I have't made it to the end yet but I have to say, I love the American Express frame and the wheel/tire combo you guys have on it is like the cherry on the gasoline sunday. Someday I'd like to have a garage and the spare cash to get one myself.
The first ride John did in the grand prix looked so fast i thought it was at least 25 seconds
I love the videos guys, I hope to be building with y’all soon
That thing is wild!
that thing is crazy fast love it
On the record CCGP run, it was faster because your driving was that much smoother. Smooth equals speed.
Watch your steering input when you play it back....it's darned near perfect. You basically willed it around the track.
Ike was a bit slower because he slid around a little more. Still good driving on the part of the both of you. Well done.
Good stuff guys.
You guys should consider a transponder set up to get proper timing. Inconsistency in start/stop presses will give you 1/2 second variations easily. And then time flying lap times to eliminate time variations due to clutch bite, engine burble/bog.
Love the vids
Its sounds so good guys this is a great lil build
In that first lap when John picked up the left front hitting the bush after crossing the driveway, my heart raced lol. you guys are cookin! Something that might help eke a little more out of that engine would be to vent the case with a catch can and if the timing hasn't been advanced already, bring a few more degrees of timing in. Also sounded like it was still breaking up during the top speed run. maybe add just a little bit more jet? Thanks for posting guys. Have fun, keep the rubber side down! Cheers!
Good video y’all 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👊🏼🙏🏼
I was going to watch your video but I spent an hour at ridgewallet and another hour at Go power sports and my wife took my phone because she thought I was shopping again. I have a bad habit of buying merch from your sponsors. Wish Harley Would sponsor you.
Bahahaha Bahahaha
Got my phone back, I paid her shoe bill.
Amazing how that works Huh ??
Roger Marshall just amazing. It’s all BS.
Make more videos more often cause I love them
Love you show. I’m in nc also. Did you see the giant fireball at 950. Fookin. Crazy. Was below the commercial airlines
Love John he loves this stuff sometimes he cant talk right from the happiness of the drive of the kart
Lol thanks man
First love your videos keep it up
Wats up guys love all the vids watch every monday and wenesday keep it up and be safe
It sounds like you ran out of gear at 7:05. It's nice to know that you gained a 10th off of a carb and fuel change nothing else. Love the videos keep them up.
Either way, looked like y'all were having too much fun on the Grand Prix. It was bookin' with both fuels though!
Hotfoot It'll be Fine is looking great, sounds great and is running like a bat out of hell. Ya all just be careful running that thing. I want to see more of your videos.
I love when ads are actually in the video. RUclips isn't getting any of the money AND I can just skip it.
After you do the 212 on e-85 you need to get a Stock 212 NO stage 2 mods
Thank you for the Great channel.
I’m 58 now, when I was 14 I had a 2.5 hp Briggs Supercharged using a MG midget air pump , Buick 231 V-6 pulleys on my mini bike... it was a Lot faster then a Honda cb 125 ..
When it died it blowing oil out of spark plug hole .. oh the plug was Tight
You guys should get a hold of a mychron 4 or 5 timing system with the gps module. It will track speed, rpm, temps, lap times, and position on the track. The gps in the these things is accurate to 1 foot and as someone who has participated in national (wka, uspks, Route 66, Florida winter tour) racing series this data is crucial. Give aim a call and see if they will send you a setup. They are pricey but a good company and will get you up and running.
Upvote so they will see this and we will get real data!! Thanks guys and great videos
clean intro on this one
You didn't alter the timeing. And also a good excuse to skim that head . Should still be a fair test because your just setting it up properly for the new fuel.
One thing to note is that you launched the cart over the drive way. That to me at least is where chain stretched the bolt backed out a little. That little cart is a real performer.
Wow! at about 4:47 in the video... I think that's the fastest I've seen you guys take that corner by the driveway... by a lot!
Great job guys! Me and my son have seen every one of your episodes. You guys build on a budget like we do. Keep up the awsome work!
That was the fastest looking lap by far. Those trees were getting pretty close. Love the video , but be safe.
The thing I don't like about most go-kart is that they don't have a multiple gear transmission and without one the engines potential power is very limited now I do know that shifter karts do exist but if you're going to put in the time and energy for a single geared engine whenever you can have an engine that could be half the size with multiple gears give off more power and speed it's just not worth it if you ask me I mean don't get me wrong it's still fun but multi gear transmissions were built for gasoline engines to optimize their very limited span of power within the RPMs
If I would build a gokart... 2 stroke, chain drive and locked rear axle.
If buggy, FWD honda engine/gearbox/differential and fully independent suspension.
Its not even fancy!
Its just a bit expensive and time consuming.
"Yard friendly cam" sweeet !
Like the design!
Is no one going to mention "banana sauce"?😂
I will!
Another fun one.
John:"Talk nerdy to me."
Enjoyed it
NICE HAIRCUT IKE !
John, how would your parents feel about a nice wide concrete walking trail in the yard? You guys are going to hit one million subscribers this year, time for a real racetrack.
Lol
now that was awesome
Hi guys great stuff you doing ,what spark plug are you using love your video"s. All the way from New Zealand
Gas carb not tuned correctly is the reason for the speed difference. With more intake vacuum you need to lean the carb out some. I’m really liking this series of videos great job guys. Would you be willing to do your pitbike motor to e85?
I love videos they’re awesome.🙂👍🏻
Where E85 really shines is with specific mods. If you increased the compression to the point where gasoline would pre detonate, and then ran E85, you would have better performance gains over 93 or 95 on whatever compression it can tolerate.
It also reacts to boost very well.
I would be so happy just to ride one the master piece
You guys should run gas in the 26 mm. I bet itll run faster then the e85
As long as the have enough air and no predetonation issues. You bet.
Yes is true, or if they want to use e85 they have to increase the compression
Man... That cart is gettin busy! I like to see it on a minibike. Ether way, I like it!
Pretty fast. I remember back in the day. Racing hopped up 3hp brigs motors. They were hitting 70mph on a paved track lol
You really need to pave a track around the house, that would be AWESOME!!
Wow, that 22mm carb was running rich!
My moms Dodge Grand Caravan takes E85, but every time she uses it, 2 of her cylinders misfire and it has basically ruined the car. Whenever it’s in a lower idle it is really shaky. It is also quite shaky whenever we’re driving on the highway. I was wondering if Isaac can help determine what might be wrong with it. Also it used to be a rental car so I don’t know if that would affect anything.
It’d b fun if you guys could find an old PTO dyno sitting around some old AG service shop. It’d be great for testing and tuning these engines
The ridge, yes I have the carbon wallet and love it!
Hey John....your driving skills are improving!!! the lap record has nothing to do with the fuel setup, LOL!!!
its the 2 best friends that anybody could have
hey guys! been watching since before the OG mini bike engine swap vid! you guys should make a go kart kit book for a recomended frame and engine and how to build it and you should do it in one of ur vids!
Just to let u guys know the e85 only allows for better tuning not speed
a better tune would make more power in many areas, therefore more speed...............
It does give more power because its cools the charge more and you can run it stoichiometrically leaner, which means more air. That said, its only about 5-7% more power, everything else being equal. Increase timing, and you can get like 10% more power. On a turbo car, the gains can be far more significant because of the charge cooling.
just not better tuning make more horsepower equals more speed
I hate to break it to you dude but if you put more fuel and air you have more power
E85 increases hp hp=mph torque=acceleration
Even withoit the e85 this thing seemed like a rocket
Damm that cart looks fast
E 85 is not designed for small engines but it works
It's literally just alcohol
@@austindoud273 85% just alcohol,15% gas.
Larger air flow and the 15% alcohol will act as a coolant resulting in a denser air charge going into the engine. During WWII Fighters used methanol injection for that exact reason.
What I learned when I built my engine. Use the old-style single electrode plug. The multi-electrode doesn't work as well. I picked up 8 hp by changing them. Small block chevy
Have you ever thought ethanal injection? Also e85 runs cooler.
The different sound came across on cam, almost a hollow raspy cackle instead of a "popping" detonation sound.
I think it sounds way better with the e85 set up wish you could actually take em on a dedicated kart track and get them tires sticky and see what times they can do there
John: proof is in the pudding.
Me:mmmm pudding.
Yall remind me of Talladega nights
Guess wich one of you is Will Ferrell
Lol
Good stuff guys.
Thanks
We need something like Cleetus done with leroy,only not as much power.300 hp big go kart would be awesome.
Get a wideband with a clip on 02 sensor so you guys can properly tune your stuff. I'm sure plenty of power gains could be had if you were able to nail your afr's.
Everytime you guys bring out the American express 2.0 it makes me want to buy one from go power sports
Its awesome
I’ve decided I’m gonna build one and I’ve got the motor. You guys should do a video of where you got the parts and how much it all cost to build
SICK drifting on the first one bro
That first Grand Prix lap... that was some good driving... maybe you have the course down well, but from expierence racing karts, holding a slide like that in a kart isn’t easy.... and it wasn’t just controlled, it looked like the fastest line... I’d love to see you two wheeling some karts on a track one day...
E85 or not, that kart is a beast!
You guys should do a Volkswagen smog pump supercharger build!
Jist put a small turbo setup on one of your builds pleaseee !! Your vidz i found are the best do it yourself home gokart engine biulds in thw world ...we need some turbo action or a mini shot of nos
0:38 "scientific back yard"😂
You guy should build one of these