The general consensus on this video is that I may have gone too far in a few places talking about the Kunai, and it detracted from the video. I can definitely see that, and probably should have cut down on the complaining significantly. My only justifications are that the only thing the Shiv really excels at is fighting Spies, meaning discussion on Spies takes up the bulk of the video, and the Kunai is the knife I easily run into the most meaning it takes up most of my experience fighting Spies. This on top of the fact that the Kunai is such a volatile weapon that can either make the Spy an easy one shot or basically unkillable means it's difficult to talk about a scenario involving Spy combat that doesn't have a big "Unless the Spy is using the Kunai and gets a backstab" asterisk attached to every sentence. I only try to bring up weapons when it's relevant, or as a point of comparison, but I ended up saying that asterisk out loud too many times, which was a mistake on my part. I'll do my best to keep future scripts a lot more focused instead of going off on tangents for weapons that I can just make a video about some other time.
Yes, it's a good weapon to fight spies with, and that's any of Sniper's primary use cases because spies love getting into melee as everyone else gets into mid range. It's not that you said the asterisk too many times, it's how you conveyed it throughout the video. We can understand if you hate a weapon and go over its strengths and how those can be annoying and beat out most all other options, that's fair, the Kunai is a strong weapon, however how you presented that information was several times in the middle progressively getting more and more frustrated at spies who use the Kunai, it didn't help weapon information, other than when you explained the problem that they're able to get back health and end the bleed, this is a serious problem when getting into your scripts lately as while using a bad weapon of course you're going to be upset at someone using a better weapon. This same problem exists when talking of the Eyelander in another video. You progressively got angrier to a point where it could be distracting from the weapon and class you're playing. In any chance you read this, I still liked the video, I knew the weapon sucked when I picked it up, but I think I got more use of it on scouts I ever did spies. Have a good day and I'll tell em Fish sent me.
@@alexandrews6256 That's understandable. I try to convey my thoughts on weapons in a way I hope is entertaining to avoid seeming too dry or "just reads stats off of the TF2 Wiki"-ish, but apparently it just comes across as me being whiny and angry. I thought my experiences with the Kunai in particular would be relatable since it's so rare for me to see a Spy that isn't using it, but I've seen mixed responses from that, and very few people sharing my frustrations, so it seems that fell completely flat.
@@fishstickonastick-gaming it's ok to share your frustrations, but while every kunai using spy frequents your servers I've not run into even 2 within my last 3 months of playing. It can be the mentality of others, cause I play a lot of spy, like playing Darksouls it doesn't actually get much easier, there's a bit of respect to spies that can actually get those stabs and get out because most flail their knives in fail stabs and being someone who likes melee combat in this game... Anyway, unlike the Kunai, the scorch shot is universally hated, even by those that use it whenever they're not playing Pyro. Everyone knows it's a free ticket to afterburn. (This was meant to be on the mentality of people towards weapons, but I forgot to make that clear until this edit) There are multiple ways to handle putting your frustrations into a script, like comedy, segmenting a portion to a rant, disclaiming that you may be talking about it a bit much so that framing wise people will be more accepting to it. There are a bunch of options, and recognizing that it can bleed into the video's quality is a good start. I really do hope you have a good day, love your work, and have fun
Summary of the video: He hates Kunai spies He hates Jar + Bushuaka But also wants you to use it cuz the bleeding is weak. He hates Kunai spies Conclusion use stock.
I mean, you have to be pretty good at spy cause no amount of health is gonna save a class like him when he gets discovered and even the dead ringer is only a band aid on that issue
@Korhol I disagree. I've seen so many spies being shot at by heavies that happen to facestab someone every few seconds and survive until either Heavy runs out of ammo, or their deadringer comes back
@@Truesilver69 the point is that a sniper should always be at their weakest when a cqc class gets close to them with very little to fight back, and the jarate with bush combo flips the tables around where if you stay close you risk getting one-shot. If you back up you risk getting sniped. Other classes will have set-in-stone weakness that their loadouts can somewhat mitigate but not flip the tables around,sniper however can not only shut down a whole map cause the way his sniper rifle works is not balanced by major opinion but even when you get close, you still risk dying to 1 or 2 hits anyway to melee. Someone like medic even with high rng melee crit is at their weakest up close, same for demo if not running demoknight loadout,etc.
Fun Fact: The Tribalman's Shiv took only a bit over 7 hours to create, from its initial concept all the way to its submission. Take what you will with that information
4:33 I think the reason the “sniper bad” crowd likes the Huntsman is because it can’t instantly kill you from across the map like the rifles can. It can definitely do that, but it’s a projectile you can see coming and dodge. So the Huntsman is in this weird position where it still feels bullshit to die to, but you would still rather face it than a sniper rifle.
I think that the reason people have less problem with the Huntsman is because it’s based around prediction. The sniper has to aim where their enemies are going, so if the target knows that they’re being aimed at they can become unpredictable to ruin the shot, and since they can see their arrow coming they receive positive feedback that the shot didn’t hit them. With the normal sniper rifle the sniper can simply flick if the target becomes unpredictable, so it feels as if it’s impossible to dodge the shot, and even if the sniper misses there’s almost no feedback about it since the shot is practically invisible, so it still feels that you did nothing.
I think that the problem that people have with the sniper rifles. You don’t know if the sniper is aiming at you or if your throwing off his aim or not. It can feel like a guessing game when approaching a sniper when not playing spy or sniper. Combine with the the really fast reload and teammates(especially if near around engineer and pyro) and it can feel impossible to deal with a sniper
It would be strong, and I mean the damage resistance are very rarely at play for sniper At melee distance but piercing them feels unwarranted unless it would also pierce dead ringer. There is also the fact that the first few ticks of bleed happen before anything really changes so the damage penalty would be unnoticeable
@@bruschetta7711 Yeah but I can't stop thinking about bleed or blood aspect on Tribalmans shiv, so I have an odd idea about it having 50% damage increase with a 25 self damage downside that activates on every attack. Making it a seudo jarate-bushwacka one slot with harsh weakness.
The bleeds stack thing is cool, but to deal any significant damage, you would have to risk far more. Scout can stack bleeds with the 2 bleed weapons, but that is at least viable since it is long range. Your idea for a buff is pretty good, but it is still not great.
It sucks too because mini-crits increase bleed damage, so why not normal crits? There's been times where I get a really good moonshot with the Wrap Assassin, only for it to cause just slightly more damage than if I were to use it with Crit-a-Cola and it feels very underwhelming Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, burning/bleeding would just melt people if they could crit, but still, critical hits with weapons that cause bleed should still do mini-crit bleeds
As far as playing Spy goes, I generally prefer the consistency of stock across the board. I mean sure the Kunai lets you farm tiny children who haven't developed a sense of object permanence yet, but as soon as you encounter a team that knows how the class functions, your options drop significantly. Potentially controversial take, but I also prefer NOT making my enemies angry. When they're angry, they tend to be more aware of my presence and the goal becomes "I'm not gonna let this fucker do literally anything ever again". As a Spy that is not a god at the class, enemies having both awareness and spite kinda kills any potential effectiveness you might have. I prefer to let someone else on my team have the spotlight. If the enemy is angry at someone else and are distracted, that's when I get to do things.
Honestly it's impossible for me to use the Kunai because most people in Australian servers know how to play the game and also because i can't trickstab
i kinda like the kunai montages, but i'd rather take spycicle's buff (or maybe even the YER for the big brain plays and obviously stock's consistency) and l'etranger's longer cloak to be the creeping death of the opposing team (if only the spy didn't have so many disguise bugs to sell him out!!!) My favorite setup with the quackensmidt watches, dripping with style (sometimes actually, when the pyros are trigger happy)
When it comes to the Kunai, aside from enemy awareness and such, I cannot tell how many times I died to an enemy who was trying to shoot someone else and to Soldiers who were just trying to rocket jump.
Breaking News: Local Scotsman Tavish Finnegan DeGroot runs so fast he creates enough friction with the air molecules that he cauterizes his own wounds. “Bloody hell, you’re telling me he ran fast enough that his damn wounds closed? I outright refuse to believe that! I’ve seen many men bleed to death with fewer knife cuts that he sustained!” Claims local Australian(?) whom was dueling with DeGroot when this miracle of physics occurred.
"Ho-Hon! **snort** It is me! The one who backstabbed both of the duelists!" *bursts out laughing* _Spy, who is using his three hands to host a puppet show of Demoman, Sniper, and Spy._
*fish normally* “no the sniper isn’t over powered, sniping from across the map is exactly the same as dying to a sticky trap” *fish in this video* “basically 20 minutes of why the sniper is over powered”
The thing that gets me is the similar constant complaining about the Scorch Shot, especially when he was calling it the "Scorch Shit" which just felt childish. It just plagues the discussion of various weapons. It doesn't feel like a "bit" scripted for comedy, it just feels like petulant rage.
The one thing I have noticed in using the shiv is that when you make someone bleed, it does more psychologically than a normal hit. The bleed seems to make a non-insignificant amount of people, particularly spies, back off to try and find health and stop the bleeding. This is just my experience though.
Bleed also adds damage punch which can throw off scout and spy aim while forcing both classes to respond to their immediate threat with a debuff applied
That is a general thing with DoT effects. You know you aren't dead yet, but you know you will take guaranteed damage. Can you survive through it? How much health did you have when it started? Better run for heath just in case.
I don’t really understand all the side eye towards the huntsman since it’s supposed to be sniper’s only close/medium range primary, therefore sniper should be rewarded for being able to quickly line up a arrow in less than 3 seconds after drawing a arrow (due to the inaccuracy penalty) with a big burst of damage. And as for avoiding the arrow, when playing medic I’ve never had a issue avoiding the arrow due to the travel time putting pressure on the sniper to shoot where I’m going to go giving a much higher margin for error when dodging a huntsman sniper.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I mean fair point, huntsman is dangerous at close range, but is that really different from a fully reved heavy or a regular sniper watching a corner?
I have always had a fondness for this shiv. Not because it's good but because bleeds for some reason cause people to panic making them try to run away immediately similar to afterburn, especially spies so it's less of a melee tool for me and more of a distraction so I can get away hopefully
that's clever. i almost never play spy but i use friendly disguises if i feel like i'm going to die and i change to whoever's chasing me's soft/hard counter to deter them. just don't let them see you doing it
One of the things I like is pairing the shiv with Jarate. Why the Shiv and Jarate? Much more fun in my opinion. The Jarate is being used as a psychological tool same with the Shiv. Everyone knows Bushwacka Jarate, so once they're covered in piss and I have my knife out, they're already running. If not, mini crit bleed is much more satisfying to listen to. I personally had more use with this weapon against cocky scouts than I ever did for spies
The title of this video would have to be: "ranting the kunai for 21 minutes straight" P.S: I think a faster swing speed would compensate the damage penalty and make more damage with the bleeding effect
This weapon was stronger on release, I remember the damage penalty being 35% and the bleed duration 8 seconds. Which allowed you to kill light classes in one hit + bleed assuming minicrits (that was before the Bushwacka was added btw).
That micro-rant about the double standard of the huntsman VS. sniper rifle debate was questionable for multiple reasons. Firstly, half of the problem with sniper rifles is their capability to one-shot literally any class in the entire game from across the map; the reason people regard the huntsman in a more favorable light is because, while yes, it's able to hit close-range targets nearly as effectively as a normal sniper rifle, it's nowhere near able to do that as effectively from across an entire continent like sniper rifles can. Secondly, even disregarding that, there are still a few options against a close-ranged huntsman. Airblast for pyros and short circuit for engineer both immediately come to mind. With sniper rifles, congratulations, there's basically not much you can do other than mash your fist against every key on your keyboard and hope that unpredictability works out. Which, frankly, it has no guarantee to. Thirdly, hit detection for sniper rifles isn't far off in terms of jankiness compared to huntsman arrows. The amount of omega-grade BS you can still get away with using them is only slightly lower than that of their projectile counterpart. Finally, even if all of the above responses are somehow invalid, that rant's done nothing to disband the reasons why sniper rifles are unbalanced. All you've done is essentially just say "one thing being unbalanced is totally okay because another thing is unbalanced". It's like trying to argue that the bushwacka+jarate combo is okay because you can just get a random crit with stock anyway, that's just not how balance works.
@@widecat1404 I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. Huntsman is still the lesser of two evils when it comes to sniper, and even if it wasn't that doesn't change sniper rifles being an evil.
To talk more about your points: 1) While Huntsman is not as effective as a Sniper Rifle at range, no one planning to use the Huntsman effectively is ever going to engage at long range, and when they do, it's usually spamming a choke point while in spawn. Plus the Huntsman has a higher potential DPS because of it's fast charge time. 2) While airblast and Short Circuit do work against Huntsman, not every Pyro is going to perfect reflect every projectile, much less a projectile as fast as the Huntsman arrow, and even when they do reflect it, it's usually because of reflex. And while Engineer can use Short Circuit, he only has 3 energy balls to try and have him or his team kill the Huntsman sniper, while the Sniper can just choose to not engage or bait out the Engineer and go for a mid-range shot. 3) Hit detection jank of sniper rifles is dependent on ping, while Huntsman jank is because of its generous hitbox; ping is dependent on players' internet connection while hitbox is always constant, combine the Huntsman hitbox jank with bad internet connection, you get possibly something more BS than the two. 4) From what I got from the rant, I think it was less of a "one thing being unbalanced is totally okay because another thing is unbalanced" and more of a "this thing is unbalanced, so why are you okay with this other thing when they're both unbalanced", just my thoughts, sorry if bad.
Honestly I don’t find sniper being changed anytime soon (even if valve started doing major updates since major class changes are not something you can do at this point).
@@notok1 Huntsman is still significantly less unbalanced though. Aiming is harder, because there's no scope. It's a projectile, so it can be dodged. While there are some god-tier Huntsman snipers 99 times out of a hundred your average pubstomping snipecunt is using a rifle. People do complain about the Lucksman and its busted hit detection but fighting a bow sniper is almost always significantly less painful than fighting a regular one.
6:32 is immature but somewhat valid. Trickstabs take skill and I respect those who can pull it off, but theres “trolls” who will say “cope” after you get upset over a facestab since they’re defending a company that doesnt care about them. But man, thats a ton of timestamps. This video could’ve been 12 minutes long if he didnt go on those rants.
4:33 Ah yes, it's kind of a double standard, but a understandable one. Unlike his other weapons where sniper can safely sit between engineers and pybros, it's a """slow""" projectile with an arc, thus forcing the bastard into the crowd with his fellow mercs, exposing him to the same dangers as others, like flares, explosives and flanks. So it is a more balanced weapon than the stock simply because it loses efficiency with range rather than being the "i don't wanna play the game properly but i also want to ruin everybody's game" weapon.
I love the damage loss for utility gain design on the rebalance server. Get kills with stock or get out of jail free with the shiv. Wait, could the shiv become the sniper's Big Earner? Nah... unless? I'd predict that the boston basher works best on scout since he has the speed to chase down the other classes. IMO the design would be a simpler, viable alternative on sniper, but less fun than what we have on the rebalance server now. Also that demo at the end tripped on the stairs LMAO
@@azurabbit12 if you really wanna be a peice of shit about it, at 14:46 (which is actually 26 seconds later ) there isn't even a spy on screen. That comes a little after 15:00 (which is 40 seconds. If you wanted to be pedantic about me being pedantic you would've mentioned that.)
In TF2Classic there is a melee for sniper that applies bleed for 2 seconds and inflicts critical hits on bleeding enemies at the cost of no random crits and if you miss you are marked for death. I think adding these stats to the Tribalman's Shiv would make for a sniper melee focused on being more agresive and risky rather then being more defensive oriented which would fit nicely in snipers melee options since most of his unlocks there are focused or good for defence.
@@sn0ipe333 Not really. If there is a spy or a scout that are attacking you for example, it would be pretty dificult to not miss your swing on them and if you are really good and dont miss you still dont get random crits with an upside that only grants 3 seconds of bleed and crits on bleeding players which would be hard to benefit from since the enemy will try to juke you if you land the first hit. Thats why the weapon is better on a more offensive playstyle.
This is just a weapon showing its irrelevance now due to time. This came out 4 months before the polycount sniper set. Back then, DR was still very powerful, and having the bleed visually allow you to track down the spy was great. Def should have been adjusted later.
Weapons like this can really make you wonder what the balance team was comprised of. Was it 1/2 people per category? Class? Did Valve just decide to take said team and throw darts at a board to assign people to certain weapons?
I think the concept around this weapon was simple enough, add a bleed melee for sniper to help track down spies that try to run away while cloaked. It's just that the hit per hit thing makes it not that useful, and to make matters worse. the spy buffs at the tail end of Tf2's development have left the shiv being outclassed.
I think it's worth noting is that the weapon was conceived before the Spy buffs, so it's easy to believe the weapon was fine before that or at least not outrageously awful. I would put blame on the Gun Mettle rebalancing team not accounting for the Shiv when giving cloak debuff and damage reduction. They did rebalance several Spy weapons during this update, so why the Shiv is left untouched is baffling to me.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 to be fair it at least sound all right on paper, I still can't get over weapons like the razorback or reworked danger shield, like sniper has two counterplays that don't involve going sniper, and they give him items that explicitly counter that just by having them equipped?
valve just seemed to love to use this game as dumping ground for all bad and random ideas and design. entire design which just decays and rots from being left with it. all of this multiplied with their disgusting code mountain pile, preventing many even simple things from just to be comfortable worked on.
@Zooker also, the video is about a sniper weapon. he could just mention its relation to the shiv and razorback (something like "at least a kunai spy cannot heal off you") and leave it at that
I think the Huntsman gets less flak than Sniper's other weapons for "being a projectile" because it shifts the Sniper's area of effective range. Most people hate Sniper specifically because they can't react to a good Sniper at long range, and the Huntsman's projectile fixes that issue by making Sniper worse at long range just like everyone else. And a mid-range Huntsman Sniper playing with aim-assist on is still ostensibly putting himself in more danger than a long-range rifle Sniper on the opposite side of the map. (Also, I think at least part of Fish's take comes from playing Sniper in Huntsman range. If you're going to almost always play in a situation where a situational weapon is almost always better, of course it's going to seem broken.)
exactly. huntsman snipers are more likely to spend time on the front line, so getting to them is easier. it CAN be used at long range, but that is a lot trickier than using a sniper rifle
The bleed needing so much time to proc reminds me of the same issue I have with damage-over-time effects in Deep Rock Galactic. Sure, I may have a huge amount of potential damage over time, but I also have 3 other bloodthirsty dwarves with miniguns, shotguns, explosives, what have you, and by Karl they sure aren't going to wait 3 seconds for the thing in front of them to die. It'd save them some ammo if they waited like two seconds for afterburn or poison to kill it, but if you put a giant bug in front of a dwarf and a gun in his hand, they're going to pull the trigger.
The reason why people respect the huntsman more is because of the range cap. In order to use the huntsman you have to be in the battle so it feels like you can actually kill the sniper unlike a sniper rifle where the sniper can be supported by a sentry and team and *be impervious to all danger*.
Copy of my comment on the old video: Jarate is the one thing that doesn’t get removed from the dead ringer going off, so as long as the dead ringer+Kunai combo exists I never ever want Jarate to be nerfed.
Dead ringer kunai combo isn't even that good anymore though. Spy is underpowered and sniper is overpowered. That is the main reason for it to be nerfed. The jarate cool down should be made much longer in my opinion.
Good video HOWEVER >”argh why don’t spies use anything besides the kunai” >rebalance mod that buffs the shiv >adding yet another way to nullify Spy’s only escape/mobility option >and also chew through his meager health Lol. Lmao.
I remember when this weapon was new; we were all excited to craft one right away since it was the Sniper's first melee unlockable. Its original stats were much better: the damage penalty was only 35%, the bleed lasted two seconds longer, AND bleeding was a brand new mechanic with this item and had a quirk where health kits would restore your health but not stop the bleed duration.
" by equipping the shic your basically saying you dont plan on surviving any of your close range fights to begin with and have resigned yourself to dying after hitting someone who gets in your face maybe once if your lucky" oh ok. *equips shiv because thats how it goes regaurdless *
It feels like this video is from an alternate dimension where spies constantly use the kunai. I genuinely come across that knife maybe once every 5 games.
''maybe i should try to use something else instead of just a verbal punching bag...but that would make me have to wrtite more than one joke that i can just repeat throughout the video!'
The engineer gets a bleed wrench with no damage downgrade. Only a slight weakness to fire. Sniper could have a -20% weakness to explosives for sneaky demoman or soldier mains.
I dont think ive ever seen someone cope and seethe harder about spies, like yeah kunai is cracked when nobody on your team can turn around but spy isnt nearly as annoying as a sniper sitting on his ass in the backline instakilling everything that enters his sightline for a half second at literally no risk to himself other than the enemy sniper who also does nothing but sits on his ass in the backline instakilling everything
@@justasalamander2621 The difference being that when a sniper just suddenly exists in a spot you literally can never show your head there again unless you want to risk getting headshot from across the map, but when a spy is in play there is SO SO much you can do to counter him (Such as playing pyro, consistently spychecking, LOOKING AT THE KILLFEED, basic communication, turning around, calling out spies when needed) and what can you do against sniper? Either play spy and pray his team is not supporting him, (Or if he's using the razorback near a sentry then you can just forget about that) and that's it lmao. Sniper either needs to be nerfed or there needs to be more counter play to him, simple as that.
@@jett9631 you also gotta watch out for his super fun combo that is the jarate bushwaka that oneshots 8/9 classes THAT RIGHT, EIGHT THE ONLY FUCKING CLASS THAT DOESNT GET ONESHOT IS HEAVY, and good luck getting to the sniper as heavy
My favorite Sniper loadout of all time is huntsman, SMG, and the shiv. A good chunk of this video talks about the shiv's paltry damage on multiple consecutive strikes, which are fair points! However, I have never used it as a w+m1 because that was never what it was meant for. If I can sneak in a single attack, it's backpedal SMG time, and if I can get far enough away huntsman comes out again. As well, if you hit a bodyshot with the huntsman, light classes are still a 1-tap with the shiv. You miss out on that "potential" damage by hitting someone twice, so just hit them once and gtfo. There's also an unlisted stat for all bleed weapons - bleed causes affected players to panic and act predictably, which are the perfect tracking targets for SMG and huntsman leading.
I like the idea of changing the Shiv to be like the Boston Basher. Snipers would be able to get into new cheeky positions with the damage boost at the cost of HP or overheal.
I feel like having the shiv be able to stack bleed upon its own would be nice, with reducing the damage penalty. Like, you are back in a corner, and you hit a soldier a few times - that will deal a decent amount of damage on its own, and the 3x bleed will drain the rest of the soldier's health to either force them to retreat, or accept their death and bring you down with them. I'm sure if would make it a lot more effective in general, too, and maybe the resistance piercing effect could be added.
The real purpose of bleed on both Shiv and Southern Hospitality is to be a tool that allows you to chase down spies that go invisible without losing them. That's the real purpose of those two weapons and why they are given to those classes. Now, of course, a good player will have no problems killing spy quickly as either class, and good spy wont just try to go invisible and run away, and will try to shoot/stab you down instead; but the weapon was designed around average pub player of early 2010s.
Man sure is a lot of kunai hate in this video. As a spy main I feel I should point out that the hate is absolutely justified as it is entirely broken and easy to abuse in a casual setting as free stabs are behind every corner.
The only one in that camp is the bushwacka if you use jarate. Stock is stock, the shahansha is a sidegrade and the shiv is terrible. If you're looking for counters to weaknesses with no downsides, look at snipers secondaries.
@@widecat1404 Sniper secondaries be like: -Wait I'm supposed to be weak at close range ? (Smg) -I'm to lazy to use medkits (Cozy Camper) -Fuck spys (Razorback) -Fuck Pyros (Darwin Danger shield) -Wait I'm suppossed to be weak at close range ? Oh and also fuck everyone especially spies (Jarate) -Cleaner Carabine
I learned that, if you pop mini-crits with the Carbine whilst someone is bleeding, they suddenly start taking more damage from the bleed. It's not that useful in practice since you're using bad weapons but it's cool when you pull it off.
I'm pretty sure that the Shiv was specifically designed for spy tracking. Although, in most cases, it's probably better as a hit-and-run get-out-of-jail melee that's used sparingly. The rework version sounds nice. Extended bleed time and speed boost fit well into this playstyle. Not too sure about the "marked for death" debuff, though, since having a spy on your tail is already a dire situation in and of itself. So, just giving him even more incentive to use the revolver and go on the offensive might just turn the situation in his favour.
Heres my fix for the weapon. Hitting a bleeding target causes all the remaining bleed damage to dealt at once. And a -15% firing rate. A very good idea
Fun fact about the shiv ! It was the very first weapon implemented to use the bleed damage effect, and this effect was made especially for this weapon! A bizarre thing to think about given that it was not an achievement unlock item.
When I used to play TF2, ironically I liked playing spy, but I kept using the stock knife or big earner, I was never fond of using the kunai Besides every time I used the kunai it was like cursing myself that a random projectile would kill me lmao
This is still quite good for countering a troldier wiff. If you throw your jarate, they will just jump away. If you tag them with the bleed, they're forced to run away.
I feel an interesting way to buff it damage wise while still retaining the bleed aspect is to give it the axtinguisher treatment: the axtinguisher deals after burn damage that has yet to tick, right? If you hit an enemy with the shiv, they start to bleed. If you hit them again, it will deal the remaining bleed as a big chunk of damage and start another bleed status. This way, you can still get close to the stock kukri damage and retain the bleed effect. To balance this out, maybe reduce the amount of bleed damage per tick or reduce swing damage a bit more.
4:33 A) The Huntsman is bullshit. In every form it is a raging pile of cow dung. Even in *GASP! Overwatch 2, Hanzo is broken beyond compare. Just shoot the sightline. That's literally it. No strategy, no plan, just arrow go bang. And, B) Yes I am, thanks for asking.
This video in a nutshell: "I hate the Kunai. Look at how much I hate the Kunai" I mean... I get it the Kunai is annoying but is it really that much of an issue? I guess if the lobby is full of inexperienced teammates sure. I thought we were talking about the shiv though but the Kunai complaints are getting a bit distracting ngl when he does it every few minutes. Just something I noticed.
I think the problem is not the Shiv, it's bleeding mechanic in TF2. Bleeding is not so different from burning, but it is much easier to set an enemy on fire. I'd experiment on turning bleeding into snowball-mechanic: first hit applies regular bleed, second hit - mini-crit bleed, third hit - critical bleed. It would also bring back old combo for scout (but with Flying Guillotine + Wrap Assassin or Flying Guillotine + Boston Basher instead of Flying Guillotine + Sandman).
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![[TF2] Bad Weapon Academy: Warrior's Spirit](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kXZwW4NuOOQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Sniper's Best Weapon](/img/1.gif)
The general consensus on this video is that I may have gone too far in a few places talking about the Kunai, and it detracted from the video. I can definitely see that, and probably should have cut down on the complaining significantly. My only justifications are that the only thing the Shiv really excels at is fighting Spies, meaning discussion on Spies takes up the bulk of the video, and the Kunai is the knife I easily run into the most meaning it takes up most of my experience fighting Spies. This on top of the fact that the Kunai is such a volatile weapon that can either make the Spy an easy one shot or basically unkillable means it's difficult to talk about a scenario involving Spy combat that doesn't have a big "Unless the Spy is using the Kunai and gets a backstab" asterisk attached to every sentence. I only try to bring up weapons when it's relevant, or as a point of comparison, but I ended up saying that asterisk out loud too many times, which was a mistake on my part. I'll do my best to keep future scripts a lot more focused instead of going off on tangents for weapons that I can just make a video about some other time.
Thanks for listening man. Love your analysis videos but the tangents can be a bit much sometimes
Yes, it's a good weapon to fight spies with, and that's any of Sniper's primary use cases because spies love getting into melee as everyone else gets into mid range. It's not that you said the asterisk too many times, it's how you conveyed it throughout the video. We can understand if you hate a weapon and go over its strengths and how those can be annoying and beat out most all other options, that's fair, the Kunai is a strong weapon, however how you presented that information was several times in the middle progressively getting more and more frustrated at spies who use the Kunai, it didn't help weapon information, other than when you explained the problem that they're able to get back health and end the bleed, this is a serious problem when getting into your scripts lately as while using a bad weapon of course you're going to be upset at someone using a better weapon. This same problem exists when talking of the Eyelander in another video. You progressively got angrier to a point where it could be distracting from the weapon and class you're playing.
In any chance you read this, I still liked the video, I knew the weapon sucked when I picked it up, but I think I got more use of it on scouts I ever did spies. Have a good day and I'll tell em Fish sent me.
@@alexandrews6256 That's understandable. I try to convey my thoughts on weapons in a way I hope is entertaining to avoid seeming too dry or "just reads stats off of the TF2 Wiki"-ish, but apparently it just comes across as me being whiny and angry. I thought my experiences with the Kunai in particular would be relatable since it's so rare for me to see a Spy that isn't using it, but I've seen mixed responses from that, and very few people sharing my frustrations, so it seems that fell completely flat.
@@fishstickonastick-gaming it's ok to share your frustrations, but while every kunai using spy frequents your servers I've not run into even 2 within my last 3 months of playing. It can be the mentality of others, cause I play a lot of spy, like playing Darksouls it doesn't actually get much easier, there's a bit of respect to spies that can actually get those stabs and get out because most flail their knives in fail stabs and being someone who likes melee combat in this game...
Anyway, unlike the Kunai, the scorch shot is universally hated, even by those that use it whenever they're not playing Pyro. Everyone knows it's a free ticket to afterburn. (This was meant to be on the mentality of people towards weapons, but I forgot to make that clear until this edit)
There are multiple ways to handle putting your frustrations into a script, like comedy, segmenting a portion to a rant, disclaiming that you may be talking about it a bit much so that framing wise people will be more accepting to it. There are a bunch of options, and recognizing that it can bleed into the video's quality is a good start. I really do hope you have a good day, love your work, and have fun
On an unrelated note: Jarate is fine, Bushwacka needs the nerf. 25% less damage (195 -> 149) Only issue is Carbine becomes indirectly worse...
Hey I think there might be too much Tribalman's Shiv discussion in your Kunai Rant
gaming
@@slendermansmoom gaming
@@ThenonFun gaming
@@fantasticgood5403gaming
@@Scober420 gaming
Summary of the video:
He hates Kunai spies
He hates Jar + Bushuaka
But also wants you to use it cuz the bleeding is weak.
He hates Kunai spies
Conclusion use stock.
I mean, you have to be pretty good at spy cause no amount of health is gonna save a class like him when he gets discovered and even the dead ringer is only a band aid on that issue
@Korhol I disagree. I've seen so many spies being shot at by heavies that happen to facestab someone every few seconds and survive until either Heavy runs out of ammo, or their deadringer comes back
Honestly the shanhansha is pretty decent. You pull it out when you're in danger, damaged from being shot at, and you'll do more damage.
@@oicmorez4129 yes heavy runs out of ammo very fast and spy has god mode and kills everyone instantly everywhere...
@@Truesilver69 the point is that a sniper should always be at their weakest when a cqc class gets close to them with very little to fight back, and the jarate with bush combo flips the tables around where if you stay close you risk getting one-shot. If you back up you risk getting sniped. Other classes will have set-in-stone weakness that their loadouts can somewhat mitigate but not flip the tables around,sniper however can not only shut down a whole map cause the way his sniper rifle works is not balanced by major opinion but even when you get close, you still risk dying to 1 or 2 hits anyway to melee. Someone like medic even with high rng melee crit is at their weakest up close, same for demo if not running demoknight loadout,etc.
Fun Fact: The Tribalman's Shiv took only a bit over 7 hours to create, from its initial concept all the way to its submission.
Take what you will with that information
The Team Fortress 7 Hour War
thats why its so shit lmao
Well it is a much more simple weapon than others
this refers to the community created model. modelers don't typically invent the stats, which is at best a suggestion
3:54 i like how casually he deletes a scout with a quickscope then puts "fuck you" in chat in fractions of a second then cuts to another clip
Typical sniper main
I wonder what that scout did to him before lmao
@@RyuakiraX that's not exclusive to sniper mains. More like people with 100+ hours and know what classes can annoy their class the most.
lol with each video he grows more and more toxic
@@DaveyTheDuck Welcome back to bad takes academy where a mediocre player bitches about everyone doing anything that makes him not do well!
4:33 I think the reason the “sniper bad” crowd likes the Huntsman is because it can’t instantly kill you from across the map like the rifles can. It can definitely do that, but it’s a projectile you can see coming and dodge. So the Huntsman is in this weird position where it still feels bullshit to die to, but you would still rather face it than a sniper rifle.
Basically yes
Yeah, I dunno why he feels like the sniper rifle and huntsman are even near the same level of bullshit
Still sucka when you're coming around the corner only to get hit by a stray arrow and die
Solid take. Also I guess we're gay now
Fish's takes on the game aren't infallible, and his stupid Huntsman opinions are proof of that lmao
You know, after seeing the very subtle hints at it thru out the video, I'm starting to think Fish doesn't like the kunai.
I think that the reason people have less problem with the Huntsman is because it’s based around prediction. The sniper has to aim where their enemies are going, so if the target knows that they’re being aimed at they can become unpredictable to ruin the shot, and since they can see their arrow coming they receive positive feedback that the shot didn’t hit them.
With the normal sniper rifle the sniper can simply flick if the target becomes unpredictable, so it feels as if it’s impossible to dodge the shot, and even if the sniper misses there’s almost no feedback about it since the shot is practically invisible, so it still feels that you did nothing.
I think that the problem that people have with the sniper rifles. You don’t know if the sniper is aiming at you or if your throwing off his aim or not. It can feel like a guessing game when approaching a sniper when not playing spy or sniper. Combine with the the really fast reload and teammates(especially if near around engineer and pyro) and it can feel impossible to deal with a sniper
The Uploader is very stupid, no use explaining to him
Or you could just spam an arrow down a choke without even knowing anyone will be there and get a kill that you totally 100% deserved
People tolerate the huntsman because it feels like you can do something about the sniper shooting at you
What's this " Huntsman " item? Never heard of it. I only see the Lucksman everywhere.
I feel like at one point the title for this vid was "Why does the Kunai exist?!" This one weapon makes Fish angrier than the Scorch Shot.
I think he's talked more about the Kunai in this video than he has about the Shiv.
@@queue1312 i hate this weapon academy
What about:
- Ignores damage defenses
- bleed stacks
- 25% less damage
It would be strong, and I mean the damage resistance are very rarely at play for sniper At melee distance but piercing them feels unwarranted unless it would also pierce dead ringer. There is also the fact that the first few ticks of bleed happen before anything really changes so the damage penalty would be unnoticeable
A rework would be better, Sniper doesn't need bleed at all let's be honest
@@bruschetta7711 Yeah but I can't stop thinking about bleed or blood aspect on Tribalmans shiv, so I have an odd idea about it having 50% damage increase with a 25 self damage downside that activates on every attack. Making it a seudo jarate-bushwacka one slot with harsh weakness.
I don’t even think there’s a melee resistance (except for the BB and some man power stuff but by that point why run to them?)
The bleeds stack thing is cool, but to deal any significant damage, you would have to risk far more. Scout can stack bleeds with the 2 bleed weapons, but that is at least viable since it is long range.
Your idea for a buff is pretty good, but it is still not great.
This video should just be renamed to “why I hate spies”
Crits are so much better than bleeds, it's so sad that they don't combine
How would a critical bleed work?
A really long bleed?
More damage per bleed tick?
It sucks too because mini-crits increase bleed damage, so why not normal crits? There's been times where I get a really good moonshot with the Wrap Assassin, only for it to cause just slightly more damage than if I were to use it with Crit-a-Cola and it feels very underwhelming
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, burning/bleeding would just melt people if they could crit, but still, critical hits with weapons that cause bleed should still do mini-crit bleeds
@@davidhong1934 usually how games deal with the whole concept of crit bleeds is multiplying the bleed damage while keeping the same time and duration
i mean there used to be one instance of crit bleeds and it was pretty busted
If only bleeds stacked..
As far as playing Spy goes, I generally prefer the consistency of stock across the board. I mean sure the Kunai lets you farm tiny children who haven't developed a sense of object permanence yet, but as soon as you encounter a team that knows how the class functions, your options drop significantly. Potentially controversial take, but I also prefer NOT making my enemies angry. When they're angry, they tend to be more aware of my presence and the goal becomes "I'm not gonna let this fucker do literally anything ever again". As a Spy that is not a god at the class, enemies having both awareness and spite kinda kills any potential effectiveness you might have. I prefer to let someone else on my team have the spotlight. If the enemy is angry at someone else and are distracted, that's when I get to do things.
+respect
Honestly it's impossible for me to use the Kunai because most people in Australian servers know how to play the game
and also because i can't trickstab
i kinda like the kunai montages, but i'd rather take spycicle's buff (or maybe even the YER for the big brain plays and obviously stock's consistency) and l'etranger's longer cloak to be the creeping death of the opposing team (if only the spy didn't have so many disguise bugs to sell him out!!!)
My favorite setup with the quackensmidt watches, dripping with style (sometimes actually, when the pyros are trigger happy)
When it comes to the Kunai, aside from enemy awareness and such, I cannot tell how many times I died to an enemy who was trying to shoot someone else and to Soldiers who were just trying to rocket jump.
When you equip Kunai, you are saying “I want everyone to hate me”
14:16 fish: complaining about all spies only using kunai.
Also spy in the literal next clip: drops big earner after he dies
Lol
*spy main detected*
And he's clearly speed boosted
Shut up redditor
Also there's a frozen body in the screen literally right after the section where hw complains about the lack of spycicle spies
Breaking News: Local Scotsman Tavish Finnegan DeGroot runs so fast he creates enough friction with the air molecules that he cauterizes his own wounds.
“Bloody hell, you’re telling me he ran fast enough that his damn wounds closed? I outright refuse to believe that! I’ve seen many men bleed to death with fewer knife cuts that he sustained!” Claims local Australian(?) whom was dueling with DeGroot when this miracle of physics occurred.
"Ho-Hon! **snort** It is me! The one who backstabbed both of the duelists!" *bursts out laughing*
_Spy, who is using his three hands to host a puppet show of Demoman, Sniper, and Spy._
That sounds like an actual TF2 headline holy shit
@@MK_ULTRA420 Huda Huda Huda!
*W+M1 gibus pyro approaches spy*
*Le disgust*
Medic in the distance: "beeindruckend, I need to test zis more!"
Alternative Title: Fish gets to bitch about the Pubbing Kunai for 21 minutes
true lol
Based. Fuck the Kunai
“I don’t remember the last time I saw a spycicle” immediately shows a clip of a spy using the spycicle
"I can't remember the last time I saw a Spycicle"
Literally 30 seconds later:
*fish normally* “no the sniper isn’t over powered, sniping from across the map is exactly the same as dying to a sticky trap”
*fish in this video* “basically 20 minutes of why the sniper is over powered”
This weapon sucks because you can just one-shot with JarateWhack
Every other class that can't one-shot in melee:
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 You need to hit them with jarat first to its a two-shot technically, but ye, still a bit too good.
Alternate video title: Fish being in pain over Spy mains for 21 minutes
He really complains a lot. Imagine using an item because it's good/exists.
@@condoslime776 yeah he really does and it can make the videos hard to watch sometimes
The thing that gets me is the similar constant complaining about the Scorch Shot, especially when he was calling it the "Scorch Shit" which just felt childish. It just plagues the discussion of various weapons.
It doesn't feel like a "bit" scripted for comedy, it just feels like petulant rage.
@@Robin_Robout literally everyone complains about it because of how stupid it is
Mad that spy uses the only viable knife, plays sniper who is arguably the most busted merc behind engie
The one thing I have noticed in using the shiv is that when you make someone bleed, it does more psychologically than a normal hit. The bleed seems to make a non-insignificant amount of people, particularly spies, back off to try and find health and stop the bleeding. This is just my experience though.
Bleed also adds damage punch which can throw off scout and spy aim while forcing both classes to respond to their immediate threat with a debuff applied
That is a general thing with DoT effects. You know you aren't dead yet, but you know you will take guaranteed damage. Can you survive through it? How much health did you have when it started? Better run for heath just in case.
I don’t really understand all the side eye towards the huntsman since it’s supposed to be sniper’s only close/medium range primary, therefore sniper should be rewarded for being able to quickly line up a arrow in less than 3 seconds after drawing a arrow (due to the inaccuracy penalty) with a big burst of damage. And as for avoiding the arrow, when playing medic I’ve never had a issue avoiding the arrow due to the travel time putting pressure on the sniper to shoot where I’m going to go giving a much higher margin for error when dodging a huntsman sniper.
i love peeking a corner and dying instantly because a huntsman sniper at close range is more dangerous than a fully revved heavy
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I mean fair point, huntsman is dangerous at close range, but is that really different from a fully reved heavy or a regular sniper watching a corner?
@@sud1881 Or a sniper with a sniper rifle across the map who can delete most classes in .5 seconds and heavily injure the rest
@@clintriggen3554 I did mention a sniper, but humans still need some targeting time so I don’t think the .5 headshot time matters.
@@sud1881 You would be surprised on how quickly some people can aim using pure instinct
I have always had a fondness for this shiv. Not because it's good but because bleeds for some reason cause people to panic making them try to run away immediately similar to afterburn, especially spies so it's less of a melee tool for me and more of a distraction so I can get away hopefully
that's clever. i almost never play spy but i use friendly disguises if i feel like i'm going to die and i change to whoever's chasing me's soft/hard counter to deter them. just don't let them see you doing it
One of the things I like is pairing the shiv with Jarate. Why the Shiv and Jarate? Much more fun in my opinion.
The Jarate is being used as a psychological tool same with the Shiv. Everyone knows Bushwacka Jarate, so once they're covered in piss and I have my knife out, they're already running. If not, mini crit bleed is much more satisfying to listen to.
I personally had more use with this weapon against cocky scouts than I ever did for spies
Thing a lot of these weapon reviewers tend to gloss over is the psychological aspect of the weapons.
Christ, those TWO enemy spies healed by Medics was painful 15:40
Oh god thats just painful
The true spy was the medic all along
The spy literally stopped moving because of the medic
4:33
Huntsman reqiures more risk for a greater reward, while Sniper Rifles require less risk for a even better reward
The title of this video would have to be: "ranting the kunai for 21 minutes straight"
P.S: I think a faster swing speed would compensate the damage penalty and make more damage with the bleeding effect
How would it make bleed do more damage?
@@widecat1404 faster swing speed means more hits to land in, more hits landing means the bleed time resets with each successful hit I assume
"I can't even remember the last time I saw a spycicle."
A few seconds later...
14:56
This weapon was stronger on release, I remember the damage penalty being 35% and the bleed duration 8 seconds. Which allowed you to kill light classes in one hit + bleed assuming minicrits (that was before the Bushwacka was added btw).
Yup. Back when I mained sniper (pre Equalizer split) this was a great way to help track down spies who turned invisible after getting hit.
TF2 balance team sure does have a knack for nerfing already meh weapons into uselessness don't they.
I’d like these videos more if half of it couldn’t be relabeled as “Fish gets off track and malds an unbelievable amount”
Hey it’s you, I’m the guy that complemented your sniper rebalance
That micro-rant about the double standard of the huntsman VS. sniper rifle debate was questionable for multiple reasons.
Firstly, half of the problem with sniper rifles is their capability to one-shot literally any class in the entire game from across the map; the reason people regard the huntsman in a more favorable light is because, while yes, it's able to hit close-range targets nearly as effectively as a normal sniper rifle, it's nowhere near able to do that as effectively from across an entire continent like sniper rifles can.
Secondly, even disregarding that, there are still a few options against a close-ranged huntsman. Airblast for pyros and short circuit for engineer both immediately come to mind. With sniper rifles, congratulations, there's basically not much you can do other than mash your fist against every key on your keyboard and hope that unpredictability works out. Which, frankly, it has no guarantee to.
Thirdly, hit detection for sniper rifles isn't far off in terms of jankiness compared to huntsman arrows. The amount of omega-grade BS you can still get away with using them is only slightly lower than that of their projectile counterpart.
Finally, even if all of the above responses are somehow invalid, that rant's done nothing to disband the reasons why sniper rifles are unbalanced. All you've done is essentially just say "one thing being unbalanced is totally okay because another thing is unbalanced". It's like trying to argue that the bushwacka+jarate combo is okay because you can just get a random crit with stock anyway, that's just not how balance works.
What's the point you're trying to make here
@@widecat1404 I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. Huntsman is still the lesser of two evils when it comes to sniper, and even if it wasn't that doesn't change sniper rifles being an evil.
To talk more about your points:
1) While Huntsman is not as effective as a Sniper Rifle at range, no one planning to use the Huntsman effectively is ever going to engage at long range, and when they do, it's usually spamming a choke point while in spawn. Plus the Huntsman has a higher potential DPS because of it's fast charge time.
2) While airblast and Short Circuit do work against Huntsman, not every Pyro is going to perfect reflect every projectile, much less a projectile as fast as the Huntsman arrow, and even when they do reflect it, it's usually because of reflex. And while Engineer can use Short Circuit, he only has 3 energy balls to try and have him or his team kill the Huntsman sniper, while the Sniper can just choose to not engage or bait out the Engineer and go for a mid-range shot.
3) Hit detection jank of sniper rifles is dependent on ping, while Huntsman jank is because of its generous hitbox; ping is dependent on players' internet connection while hitbox is always constant, combine the Huntsman hitbox jank with bad internet connection, you get possibly something more BS than the two.
4) From what I got from the rant, I think it was less of a "one thing being unbalanced is totally okay because another thing is unbalanced" and more of a "this thing is unbalanced, so why are you okay with this other thing when they're both unbalanced", just my thoughts, sorry if bad.
Honestly I don’t find sniper being changed anytime soon (even if valve started doing major updates since major class changes are not something you can do at this point).
@@notok1 Huntsman is still significantly less unbalanced though. Aiming is harder, because there's no scope. It's a projectile, so it can be dodged. While there are some god-tier Huntsman snipers 99 times out of a hundred your average pubstomping snipecunt is using a rifle. People do complain about the Lucksman and its busted hit detection but fighting a bow sniper is almost always significantly less painful than fighting a regular one.
Timestamps on when FSOAS coped about the kunai/spy:
2:14
6:32
7:01
8:44 with the subtitles
10:28
11:16
11:53
12:03
13:47
14:09
14:17
god damn that's a lot
No wonder the video is as long as it is. It's being padded with elementary school-level tantrums.
6:32 is immature but somewhat valid. Trickstabs take skill and I respect those who can pull it off, but theres “trolls” who will say “cope” after you get upset over a facestab since they’re defending a company that doesnt care about them. But man, thats a ton of timestamps. This video could’ve been 12 minutes long if he didnt go on those rants.
@@IDontHaveLifeInsurance As a spy main who loves the kunai, cope
Technically he kinda had to talk about the kunai for this video but he definitely got off track and talked about it a bit too much
fish may have developed a *slight* hatred of spies while making this episode...
4:33
Ah yes, it's kind of a double standard, but a understandable one.
Unlike his other weapons where sniper can safely sit between engineers and pybros, it's a """slow""" projectile with an arc, thus forcing the bastard into the crowd with his fellow mercs, exposing him to the same dangers as others, like flares, explosives and flanks. So it is a more balanced weapon than the stock simply because it loses efficiency with range rather than being the "i don't wanna play the game properly but i also want to ruin everybody's game" weapon.
I’m still waiting for the kunai rant video. Yes, I haven’t given up on this.
that's just every video he uploads
Kunai isn’t even all that great. It’s literally the dead ringer that’s annoying. A Kunai spy w/o a dead ringer can get a max of 2 kills before he dies
Wait till he realizes it is actually balanced lol
@@KyleBrownIsALoser that would require him to play spy for more than 2 mins
@@BiigiieCheeese He sucks at spy so that means that everyone else is hacking!!1!1!1!1!11!111!!!
“ I can’t even remember someone using the spycicle “
💀💀💀💀
Literally 10 seconds before a spyciccle spy is shown
I love the damage loss for utility gain design on the rebalance server. Get kills with stock or get out of jail free with the shiv.
Wait, could the shiv become the sniper's Big Earner? Nah... unless?
I'd predict that the boston basher works best on scout since he has the speed to chase down the other classes. IMO the design would be a simpler, viable alternative on sniper, but less fun than what we have on the rebalance server now.
Also that demo at the end tripped on the stairs LMAO
boston basher doesnt work on scout and is only useful for building uber, meatshot is always better than a melee that could miss and kill you
Boston Busher sucks as actual weapon lol. Scouts only use it to build uber and do Basher jumps.
Boston can stack bleed so there's atleast more meme potential
its funny how at 14:20 he mentions never seeing a spycicle and not 20 seconds later a clip with a frozen player is there at 15:00
Buddy
That's 30 seconds
@@funkinforever6308if you're gonna be pedantic, it was actually 26
@@azurabbit12 if you really wanna be a peice of shit about it, at 14:46 (which is actually 26 seconds later ) there isn't even a spy on screen. That comes a little after 15:00 (which is 40 seconds. If you wanted to be pedantic about me being pedantic you would've mentioned that.)
In TF2Classic there is a melee for sniper that applies bleed for 2 seconds and inflicts critical hits on bleeding enemies at the cost of no random crits and if you miss you are marked for death. I think adding these stats to the Tribalman's Shiv would make for a sniper melee focused on being more agresive and risky rather then being more defensive oriented which would fit nicely in snipers melee options since most of his unlocks there are focused or good for defence.
No punishment if you don’t suck balls. Direct upgrade just like basher
@@sn0ipe333 Not really. If there is a spy or a scout that are attacking you for example, it would be pretty dificult to not miss your swing on them and if you are really good and dont miss you still dont get random crits with an upside that only grants 3 seconds of bleed and crits on bleeding players which would be hard to benefit from since the enemy will try to juke you if you land the first hit. Thats why the weapon is better on a more offensive playstyle.
This is just a weapon showing its irrelevance now due to time. This came out 4 months before the polycount sniper set. Back then, DR was still very powerful, and having the bleed visually allow you to track down the spy was great. Def should have been adjusted later.
Weapons like this can really make you wonder what the balance team was comprised of. Was it 1/2 people per category? Class? Did Valve just decide to take said team and throw darts at a board to assign people to certain weapons?
I think the concept around this weapon was simple enough, add a bleed melee for sniper to help track down spies that try to run away while cloaked. It's just that the hit per hit thing makes it not that useful, and to make matters worse. the spy buffs at the tail end of Tf2's development have left the shiv being outclassed.
I think it's worth noting is that the weapon was conceived before the Spy buffs, so it's easy to believe the weapon was fine before that or at least not outrageously awful. I would put blame on the Gun Mettle rebalancing team not accounting for the Shiv when giving cloak debuff and damage reduction. They did rebalance several Spy weapons during this update, so why the Shiv is left untouched is baffling to me.
@@privatepessleneck no its just that the damage is dogshit, tracking spies as a sniper is completely useless
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 to be fair it at least sound all right on paper, I still can't get over weapons like the razorback or reworked danger shield, like sniper has two counterplays that don't involve going sniper, and they give him items that explicitly counter that just by having them equipped?
valve just seemed to love to use this game as dumping ground for all bad and random ideas and design. entire design which just decays and rots from being left with it.
all of this multiplied with their disgusting code mountain pile, preventing many even simple things from just to be comfortable worked on.
I love how mad you get over the kunai while I'm out here with the YER.
I love how Fish talks about how he never sees Spycicles before showing a clip where a spy gets a backstab with one.
@Zooker also, the video is about a sniper weapon. he could just mention its relation to the shiv and razorback (something like "at least a kunai spy cannot heal off you") and leave it at that
i like how half of the video is just him hating on spies
I love your shark pfp!
@@BryantVonMiller thanks! i like yours too!
@@VividNightzz Thank ya Vorxzery! ^_^
@@BryantVonMiller np!
@@VividNightzz ^_^
>play 2000 hours of rock-paper-scissors
>always pick paper
>constantly seething over the fact that scissors exists
on hit, bleed for 8 seconds.
3:53 casually being toxic in chat
@@jes_crib9541 idk but I think it was pretty funny
I think the Huntsman gets less flak than Sniper's other weapons for "being a projectile" because it shifts the Sniper's area of effective range. Most people hate Sniper specifically because they can't react to a good Sniper at long range, and the Huntsman's projectile fixes that issue by making Sniper worse at long range just like everyone else. And a mid-range Huntsman Sniper playing with aim-assist on is still ostensibly putting himself in more danger than a long-range rifle Sniper on the opposite side of the map.
(Also, I think at least part of Fish's take comes from playing Sniper in Huntsman range. If you're going to almost always play in a situation where a situational weapon is almost always better, of course it's going to seem broken.)
exactly. huntsman snipers are more likely to spend time on the front line, so getting to them is easier. it CAN be used at long range, but that is a lot trickier than using a sniper rifle
hate all these bots shutting down entire lobbies with the Huntsman.
3:50 fish toxic gamer moment
"I wish any spy used any knife other than the kunai."
Me, who hasn't switched off the Big Earner in years: "lol. lmao."
someone has been backstabbed one to many times
The bleed needing so much time to proc reminds me of the same issue I have with damage-over-time effects in Deep Rock Galactic. Sure, I may have a huge amount of potential damage over time, but I also have 3 other bloodthirsty dwarves with miniguns, shotguns, explosives, what have you, and by Karl they sure aren't going to wait 3 seconds for the thing in front of them to die.
It'd save them some ammo if they waited like two seconds for afterburn or poison to kill it, but if you put a giant bug in front of a dwarf and a gun in his hand, they're going to pull the trigger.
I think he hates the kunai more than the scorch shot now
Don’t know why? A good spy is infinitely harder to find than a sheet pyro who equips the scorch
scorch spammer is an NPC, kunai user is a f*cking weaboo
The hierarchy of cringe for these two is obvious
@@BiigiieCheeese I feel like he just hates pyros an spies lol considering they kinda counter his main.
@@thebushbros6626 to be fair, everybody hates spy and pyro
@@what982 it’s basically the communities punching bag at this point so they can blame everything on them.
Valve: *Soon they'll add crit bleed*
The Shiv: *Ready to meet Sharpie?*
The reason why people respect the huntsman more is because of the range cap. In order to use the huntsman you have to be in the battle so it feels like you can actually kill the sniper unlike a sniper rifle where the sniper can be supported by a sentry and team and *be impervious to all danger*.
Copy of my comment on the old video:
Jarate is the one thing that doesn’t get removed from the dead ringer going off, so as long as the dead ringer+Kunai combo exists I never ever want Jarate to be nerfed.
Dead ringer kunai combo isn't even that good anymore though. Spy is underpowered and sniper is overpowered. That is the main reason for it to be nerfed. The jarate cool down should be made much longer in my opinion.
You know you can nerf Jarate without removing that attribute, right?
@@disappointedcucumber removing what attribute?
you can nerf jarate with cooldown increase, aoe reduction and bushwacka nerf, none of which make this no longer possible
@@sheenfromtf2 The attribute of Jarate staying on dead ringer spies.
I was replying to the first comment, not you. Sorry about that.
Show us on the sniper doll where the spy trickstabbed you...
Good video HOWEVER
>”argh why don’t spies use anything besides the kunai”
>rebalance mod that buffs the shiv
>adding yet another way to nullify Spy’s only escape/mobility option
>and also chew through his meager health
Lol. Lmao.
You know it's a fun weapon when you deal the same damage as scout but at normal melee speed
less*
This thing is colored brown for a reason.
18:35 just seeing how many ppl went for that spy makes me happy
I feel like the only spy who uses the stock knife and Cloak and Dagger right now
You are not alone, friend.
I remember when this weapon was new; we were all excited to craft one right away since it was the Sniper's first melee unlockable. Its original stats were much better: the damage penalty was only 35%, the bleed lasted two seconds longer, AND bleeding was a brand new mechanic with this item and had a quirk where health kits would restore your health but not stop the bleed duration.
Soundsmith covered this really well in his Flava videos. Bleed damage doesn't kill anything very often. It's just incredibly annoying sometimes.
" by equipping the shic your basically saying you dont plan on surviving any of your close range fights to begin with and have resigned yourself to dying after hitting someone who gets in your face maybe once if your lucky"
oh ok.
*equips shiv because thats how it goes regaurdless *
It feels like this video is from an alternate dimension where spies constantly use the kunai. I genuinely come across that knife maybe once every 5 games.
WHERE ARE YOU PEOPLE COMING FROM, I WISH TO GO TO YOUR ALTERNATE UNIVERSE
@@fishstickonastick-gaming I think you're just really unlucky my man 😅
@fishstickonastick-gaming there are literally spies using other knives in this video
''maybe i should try to use something else instead of just a verbal punching bag...but that would make me have to wrtite more than one joke that i can just repeat throughout the video!'
Love these series, my favorite part about it is how most of the video is fish complaining
I had a phase where I ran this weapon with jarate and I imagined the enemy getting their wounds infected and I liked it in a sadistic way
6:08 the sheer speed of the charge generates so much heat it cauterizes the wounds
The engineer gets a bleed wrench with no damage downgrade. Only a slight weakness to fire. Sniper could have a -20% weakness to explosives for sneaky demoman or soldier mains.
I dont think ive ever seen someone cope and seethe harder about spies, like yeah kunai is cracked when nobody on your team can turn around but spy isnt nearly as annoying as a sniper sitting on his ass in the backline instakilling everything that enters his sightline for a half second at literally no risk to himself other than the enemy sniper who also does nothing but sits on his ass in the backline instakilling everything
He seethes about spy because he is that sniper.
As you cope and seethe about a sniper being a sniper????
@@justasalamander2621 The difference being that when a sniper just suddenly exists in a spot you literally can never show your head there again unless you want to risk getting headshot from across the map, but when a spy is in play there is SO SO much you can do to counter him (Such as playing pyro, consistently spychecking, LOOKING AT THE KILLFEED, basic communication, turning around, calling out spies when needed) and what can you do against sniper? Either play spy and pray his team is not supporting him, (Or if he's using the razorback near a sentry then you can just forget about that) and that's it lmao.
Sniper either needs to be nerfed or there needs to be more counter play to him, simple as that.
@@jett9631 you also gotta watch out for his super fun combo that is the jarate bushwaka that oneshots 8/9 classes THAT RIGHT, EIGHT THE ONLY FUCKING CLASS THAT DOESNT GET ONESHOT IS HEAVY, and good luck getting to the sniper as heavy
My favorite Sniper loadout of all time is huntsman, SMG, and the shiv. A good chunk of this video talks about the shiv's paltry damage on multiple consecutive strikes, which are fair points! However, I have never used it as a w+m1 because that was never what it was meant for. If I can sneak in a single attack, it's backpedal SMG time, and if I can get far enough away huntsman comes out again. As well, if you hit a bodyshot with the huntsman, light classes are still a 1-tap with the shiv. You miss out on that "potential" damage by hitting someone twice, so just hit them once and gtfo. There's also an unlisted stat for all bleed weapons - bleed causes affected players to panic and act predictably, which are the perfect tracking targets for SMG and huntsman leading.
I like the idea of changing the Shiv to be like the Boston Basher. Snipers would be able to get into new cheeky positions with the damage boost at the cost of HP or overheal.
I would make it so the bleed doesn’t reset on each hit, instead it stacks so each hit makes the bleed last longer or do more damage
I feel like having the shiv be able to stack bleed upon its own would be nice, with reducing the damage penalty. Like, you are back in a corner, and you hit a soldier a few times - that will deal a decent amount of damage on its own, and the 3x bleed will drain the rest of the soldier's health to either force them to retreat, or accept their death and bring you down with them. I'm sure if would make it a lot more effective in general, too, and maybe the resistance piercing effect could be added.
The real purpose of bleed on both Shiv and Southern Hospitality is to be a tool that allows you to chase down spies that go invisible without losing them. That's the real purpose of those two weapons and why they are given to those classes. Now, of course, a good player will have no problems killing spy quickly as either class, and good spy wont just try to go invisible and run away, and will try to shoot/stab you down instead; but the weapon was designed around average pub player of early 2010s.
I love how half the video is just Fish shitting on Spy mains and/or the Kunai.
It just eats up the time.
cuz he doesnt know what hes talking about :broken_heart:
bwa is more like mediocre/average weapon academy bro
Give the Shiv to the Scout and the Cleaver to the Sniper. No, I will not elaborate.
Man sure is a lot of kunai hate in this video. As a spy main I feel I should point out that the hate is absolutely justified as it is entirely broken and easy to abuse in a casual setting as free stabs are behind every corner.
dude did a spy main steal your cereal this morning
I think its a testament to valves irrational balance design to make sniper melees just counters to his weakness with no real downside
The only one in that camp is the bushwacka if you use jarate. Stock is stock, the shahansha is a sidegrade and the shiv is terrible. If you're looking for counters to weaknesses with no downsides, look at snipers secondaries.
@@widecat1404 Sniper secondaries be like:
-Wait I'm supposed to be weak at close range ? (Smg)
-I'm to lazy to use medkits (Cozy Camper)
-Fuck spys (Razorback)
-Fuck Pyros (Darwin Danger shield)
-Wait I'm suppossed to be weak at close range ? Oh and also fuck everyone especially spies (Jarate)
-Cleaner Carabine
@@widecat1404 Fair point
I learned that, if you pop mini-crits with the Carbine whilst someone is bleeding, they suddenly start taking more damage from the bleed.
It's not that useful in practice since you're using bad weapons but it's cool when you pull it off.
I'm pretty sure that the Shiv was specifically designed for spy tracking. Although, in most cases, it's probably better as a hit-and-run get-out-of-jail melee that's used sparingly.
The rework version sounds nice. Extended bleed time and speed boost fit well into this playstyle. Not too sure about the "marked for death" debuff, though, since having a spy on your tail is already a dire situation in and of itself. So, just giving him even more incentive to use the revolver and go on the offensive might just turn the situation in his favour.
Heres my fix for the weapon. Hitting a bleeding target causes all the remaining bleed damage to dealt at once.
And a -15% firing rate.
A very good idea
Um...... do you want it to random crit?
I just like the dings. And the bleed usually spooks off newer scouts.
Fun fact about the shiv ! It was the very first weapon implemented to use the bleed damage effect, and this effect was made especially for this weapon! A bizarre thing to think about given that it was not an achievement unlock item.
When I used to play TF2, ironically I liked playing spy, but I kept using the stock knife or big earner, I was never fond of using the kunai
Besides every time I used the kunai it was like cursing myself that a random projectile would kill me lmao
16:31 Holy shit you fuckin annihilated that soldier lmao
i just hate how many anti spy items sniper has, it's stupid and shouldn't be a thing
This is still quite good for countering a troldier wiff. If you throw your jarate, they will just jump away. If you tag them with the bleed, they're forced to run away.
I feel an interesting way to buff it damage wise while still retaining the bleed aspect is to give it the axtinguisher treatment: the axtinguisher deals after burn damage that has yet to tick, right? If you hit an enemy with the shiv, they start to bleed. If you hit them again, it will deal the remaining bleed as a big chunk of damage and start another bleed status.
This way, you can still get close to the stock kukri damage and retain the bleed effect. To balance this out, maybe reduce the amount of bleed damage per tick or reduce swing damage a bit more.
4:33
A) The Huntsman is bullshit. In every form it is a raging pile of cow dung. Even in *GASP! Overwatch 2, Hanzo is broken beyond compare. Just shoot the sightline. That's literally it. No strategy, no plan, just arrow go bang.
And, B) Yes I am, thanks for asking.
Personally I use this weapon for 1 reason: I think this should be the normal dmg for Sniper's melee.
4:30 why do people now say this? literally all tf2 history we had the "lucksman" meme. wth are you talking about?
4:37 "Sniper main" "principle"
Did a Spy eat your fucking lunch today, Fish? Goddamn!
This video in a nutshell: "I hate the Kunai. Look at how much I hate the Kunai"
I mean... I get it the Kunai is annoying but is it really that much of an issue? I guess if the lobby is full of inexperienced teammates sure. I thought we were talking about the shiv though but the Kunai complaints are getting a bit distracting ngl when he does it every few minutes. Just something I noticed.
I think the problem is not the Shiv, it's bleeding mechanic in TF2. Bleeding is not so different from burning, but it is much easier to set an enemy on fire. I'd experiment on turning bleeding into snowball-mechanic: first hit applies regular bleed, second hit - mini-crit bleed, third hit - critical bleed. It would also bring back old combo for scout (but with Flying Guillotine + Wrap Assassin or Flying Guillotine + Boston Basher instead of Flying Guillotine + Sandman).
You could just let the bleeds stack, so getting two hits in would force most enemies to disengage.
Dude these clips where everyone just walks into spy tricks tabs are infuriating