A biblical theology of true worship (w/ Dr. Edith Humphrey)
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
- This video is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For 10% off your first month, use the link, www.faithfulcounseling.com/gos...
Worship wars have been dividing churches for years. From debates over contemporary worship versus hymns or vernacular versus Latin, everyone seems to have an opinion on what a worship service/mass/liturgy should look like. But in this video we get to the heart of the matter, exploring what the Bible says about worship, and how that shaped early Christian liturgies and ultimately the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of today.
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About Gospel Simplicity:
Gospel Simplicity began as a RUclips channel in a Moody Bible Institute dorm. It was born out of the central conviction that the gospel is really good news, and I wanted to share that with as many people as possible. The channel has grown and changed over time, but that central conviction has never changed. Today, we make content around biblical and theological topics, often interacting with people from across the Christian tradition with the hope of seeking greater unity and introducing people to the beautiful simplicity and transformative power of the gospel, the good news about Jesus.
About the host:
Hey! My name is Austin, and I'm a 24 year old guy who’s passionate about the beautiful simplicity and transformative power of the gospel. I believe that the gospel, the good news about Jesus, is really good news, and I’m out to explore, unpack, and share that good news with as many people as possible. I'm a full blown Bible and Church History nerd that loves getting to dialogue with others about this, learning as much as I can, and then teaching whatever I can. I grew up around Frederick, MD where I eventually ended up working my first job at a church. They made the mistake of letting me try my hand at teaching, and instantly I fell in love. That set me on a path for further education, and I'm currently a student at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, IL, studying theology. On any given day you can find me with my nose in a book or a guitar in my hands. Want to get to know me more? Follow me and say hi on Instagram at: @austin.suggs
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Edited in FCPX
Music:
Bowmans Root - Isaac Joel
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Chapters:
00:00 - Teaser
00:34 - Intro
03:13 - Dr. Humphrey's journey to Orthodoxy
10:30 - False individuals leads to false worship
13:17 - Ad 1 - Faithful Counseling
15:24 - How should we evaluate a liturgy?
18:35 - Worship as entrance
24:18 - Isaiah 6 and early Christian worship
32:26 - Why go beyond the NT to understand early worship?
36:30 - Not reading liturgy into everything
41:52 - Closed Communion
47:43 - Female head coverings
53:47 - What makes Eastern Liturgies unique
59:42 - Preparing for a worship service
1:02:50 - Dr. Humphrey's fiction
1:07:49 - Final Four
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Развлечения
"Worship begins at home before you even leave." 100%
Regarding headcoverings: a woman explained it to me as a great honor. She pointed out how the holiest things in the church are covered with a veil: the altar and the gifts are both covered with a veil as a sign of their holiness. Men are expressly forbidden from wearing a headcovering unless they are set apart as a priest (at certain times in the Liturgy) or a bishop. In other words, women are recognized as holy by wearing a headcovering, while men have to be set apart and consecrated in order to wear a headcovering and is exceptional.
Woah!
Yes indeed! But on a practical level too, it's very freeing. I don't worry about my hair and concerned with vain thoughts in church. It also gives me a sense of connection with Christian women throughout history. When I look at the icons of women saints, and being called to live like them- these role models are veiled. It's also an honor and yet very humbling at the same time. Humility is key. At first, I didn't know how to feel about it and I had remarks of judgement from family and friends on it as too old fashioned, strange, and oppressive. I learned to humble myself and let go of my pride and I absolutely love it now. Church isn't about doing what the outside modern world deems fashionable.
I think Jonathan Pageau made a similar case for why Orthodoxy doesn’t have female priests. Something along the lines of women hold the potential to bear life, which in itself is a mystery (sacrament) so a woman presenting the gifts on behalf of the congregation would in a sense lessen or draw attention away from the sacrament happening in front of us (eucharist). In other words, women can’t enter the tabernacle, because they ARE the tabernacle.
"The significance and value of a woman lies not in what she does, but in who she is. She carries and embodies a metaphor that illuminates the ultimate purpose of the human being: to be fully united to its Creator.
"This is another reason I choose to wear a veil during Mass. I am calling attention to the sacramental character of my femaleness, which represents the Church as Bride. Woman is an icon of humanity itself, vis-à-vis God. And man is an icon of God vis-à-vis humanity."
Dr. Abigail Favale, Into the Deep
Damn I am going to tell the person I'm seeing this lol. Love this.
Another outstanding presentation! After 65 years in Protestant churches, among many wonderful believers, I was baptized into the Orthodox Church in 2021 on Lazarus Saturday, and I cannot express fully in words how joyous my life and worship have become! I started watching Gospel Simplicity right around the time I became a catechumen in late 2020. My journey began as a result of one of my two living sons entering into the Roman Catholic Church, and my completing the Catholic RCIA program; not quite ready to enter into communion with the Roman Catholic Church, I immersed myself in the study of the Bible and early writings such as The Incarnation of the Word of God and the Didache. My youngest son then called me and asked if I had heard of the Orthodox Church. He and his wife and daughters were baptized into the Orthodox Church of America 3 weeks after I was baptized into the Antiochian Orthodox Church. I am very thankful for your work and you and your wife are always in my prayers; Glory to God! Seraphim
Thank you for your prayers and for sharing some of your story!
God bless!
My husband and I are scheduled to be baptized this coming Lazarus Saturday after 56 years as Southern Baptists.
Us too!!! So happy to be United to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!!
Glory to God. Thank you for sharing your beautiful story.
🙏💜☦
I was baptized Lazarus Saturday 2022 into Antiochian Orthodox Church of America 🙏💜☦
I never made that connection between the Eucharist and St. Simeon receiving Christ in the Temple. So good.
Wow, this lady is amazing. The marriage analogy with Holy Communion is spot on.
"God isn't in a hurry." Wow. I really needed that in this season of my life. Glory to God for all things, amin!
Mr. Austin, I just want to thank you again. Your work has been a big part of my family and I coming to Holy Orthodoxy. We will be Chrismated this fall. Thank you again.
I loved this conversation. I hope she does an Audio book her voice is very soothing. I have been Orthodox for 1 year now (after being raised Pentecostal) and the layers of significance in the liturgy never seem to end...I'm always discovering something fresh in this very ancient ritual. Will definitely check out her book.
I know the feeling. I was chrismated last June after living as a Roman Catholic. It’s very enlightening.
God said to Moses in Exodus 25:40, “See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
Western Christians say “we are no longer under the Law…” But what was Tabernacle Worship like? There were the Lampstand, the incense, prayers, bread of presence etc…
Then you read in Revelation, where John is taken up to heaven and, one would expect a CCM concert, but what do they find? The lampstand, the incense, the prayers etc… are all in heaven. So Orthodox Divine Liturgy prepares us for Heaven.
14:27 "I'm just not getting fed." What an awesome observation. I'm taking it as protestants missing Eucharist at some deep level.
Thanks! As an Orthodox, I learned a lot of new, fascinating and really useful things from this conversation. There is a lot of deep information in the video, which I can now use in worship in the Divine Liturgy, in my reasonable service before God and together with His people. God bless you, Austin and Dr. Edith!
P.S.: I will try to be fully prepared for tomorrow's Sunday Liturgy😇
I've spent the last nine, maybe ten months at this point, seeking the Lord and asking Him to guide me into all truth. No matter what it looks like. No matter what I have to change or take on or give up. I just want Christ - and all of Him it is possible to have this side of heaven. I've been a little discouraged that I haven't figured it out by now. Like, is there something wrong with me?? But I absolutely broke down with gratitude for the Lord and His timing and His faithfulness to finish what He started when she said thirteen years!! Thank You, Jesus for your faithfulness!! I don't have to have all the answers today. He will never fail to do what He promised. I love You, Jesus.
The last stop on the search for truth is the Orthodox Church. It took me many years to realize that.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
@@George-ur8ow This reminds me of the saying "It's always in the last place you look." Well, yeah, once you find it, you stop looking! Thank you for this encouraging word. 🙏 Please pray that my head wouldn't get in the way of the Truth getting all the way in there. 🙏
Good afternoon Erin. Holy Thursday today and I’m listening to this after work in Australia. I am struck by the passage that says that those who confess me those I will confess before the Father. And you professed Christ for all the world to see. He will guide you into all truth. He did that for my wife and me and our then three children ( now four) over 20 years ago when we were baptised on Holy Saturday into His church. But it has to sit well with you and our Lord is gracious and patient and waits for his children to respond ( think of the prodigal son who was not pursued by his father ).
All the best
@@shovelleator4738 Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I deeply appreciate your words of encouragement. I believe everything you said wholeheartedly and pray that God gives me the discernment and obedience to follow. 🧡
Just try to find out which Church has been creating regularly (!) the most saintly persons (saints)....
The tree is recognized by its fruits
This channel introduced me to Holy Orthodoxy. Thank you!
Magnificently presented by the guest speaker.
Bravo Bravo Bravo
And a big THANK YOU 🙂.
I just ordered her book on CS Lewis and Orthodoxy. Can't wait to read it. Great interview!
Looking forward to this. From Genesis to Revelation, we see the altar & liturgy
We do - but the location of the altar might surprise you...
"If we ask for the prayers of our friends that are living, why won't we ask for the prayers of our friends that are close to Jesus Christ since Christ said that God is the God of the living and not the dead. They are not dead but they are with Him." About 15 years ago, we had a gathering of my younger sister's friends over at the house and they were talking about others remarking on when they made the sign of the Cross while passing outside of Orthodox Church. One of the young men (a very happy young man but modern / hip in externals), said: It's simple. It's the same as waving hi to my friends. When I make the sign of the Cross in passing outside of a church, I'm saying hi to my friends, Christ and Panaghia (Theotokos). Thank you Dr Humphrey, as I think of that young man's testimony often.
How lovely! What friends we have! Truly God provides ❤
Orthodox and Catholics worship and tradition are the true original worship. They later developed in bit different direction, but structures of the worship are the same. Really true and full Churches.
Speaking of grand, you Edith Humphrey are a grand lady. Have always enjoyed you and your work. Many years!
From the Prophet Malachi, from the last book of the Old Testament, a prophecy of the Church and Liturgy to come:
"I have no pleasure in you,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“Nor will I accept an offering from your hands.
For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles;
In every place incense shall be offered to My name, and a pure offering;
For My name shall be great among the nations, Says the Lord of hosts."
Malachi 1:10, 11
From Tokyo to Los Angeles - from where the sun rises to where it goes down - incense is offered in honor of the name of the Lord, and a pure offering: the very body and blood of the Lord himself.
This prophecy is being fulfilled in each Orthodox Divine Liturgy every Sunday around the world.
Yes, more Orthodox! Would be interesting for you to investigate Byzantium Catholics. Mother Natalia & Gabriella (Christ the Bridegroom Monastery), and Fr. Michael O’Loughlin would be great. Would love to see you interview Orthodox monastics too. Thanks for your work and ministry here!
Great suggestion!
Stay away from the Latins .
I enjoyed this interview very much. Your Orthodox interviews are always engaging and on interesting topics.
Thanks!
As a former Catholic I now see Orthodoxy as the only Christian Church. I don’t judge anyone or their denomination or completely different faith but i pray for them. The Church is almost like visiting a loving and welcoming family member..this is especially the feeling i get when i enter a monastery..such a feeling like of returning home..frankly it’s inexplicable
I listened to this twice. I may listen again. Really enlightening and comforting. I’m trying to find my way in Orthodoxy and had a number of fears and awkward feelings when attending church. She smoothed these. I really look forward to your next talk with her!
I first stumbled into orthodoxy in 2019. Fast forward to this year, I’ve drawn closer to the mysticism and orthodox theology. Dr. Edith is such a graceful lecturer. I enjoyed this podcast.
I love that in the final part of the interview you discussed the use of fiction in understanding.
Christ regularly used fictional stories to explain things - in parables. And one major aspect of Orthodox Christianity that is so appealing is the embrace of Mystery - the fact that there is so much that we don't understand, and don't need to understand in this life, because we can't - until, in hope and faith, we eventually see God face to face.
Mystery is so important, something which Western Christianity has lost in such such a big way - not needing to put everything in neat little boxes. Accepting that there are things beyond our comprehension is a liberation from Western legalism. That was a great appeal to me when I approached Orthodoxy 30 years ago.
I had a lot of fun with that question!
100% correct! People want understanding everything they read and try to make sense with their surroundings. What people forget is God just gave us fraction of informations in our world 🌎 and what if he tell us about heaven we have no brains power to comprehend? Faith is a key
Stay on the path brother! Dr. Edith nailed it describing worship. I was in your shoes a few years ago as an inquirer for many years and became Orthodox recently. That's only the starting point, once you start living the lifestyle and participating in the sacraments it takes it to a whole new level. God bless you and take your time.
This is a great interview! Thank you so much for sharing this and your hard work. I’ve read several of Dr Humphrey’s books and really appreciated them…it’s great to hear her speak! Glory to God
What an excellent conversation! Dr. Humphrey has been some what on the edges of my radar, but I'm going to make a point of checking out some more of her work. You've had some great interviews, but this one is near the top for me. Thanks for this!
Beautiful discussion! I now understand Worship is about giving to God, instead of expecting to receive some sort of feeling or confirmation. Being in His presence during Liturgy is sufficient. Having that mindset may also apply to prayer, giving everything to God and making sure we align to His Will and not expect God to align with our will. I appreciate your channel.
Fabulous. I really enjoyed this conversation
I am excited for this!
What a wonderful video! I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of that!
Really great interview. Thanks!!
I watched this video twice. Lots of great stuff
Glad to hear that!
We just finished a book study on Till We Have Faces at my Orthodox parish :)
AWESOME INTERVIEW!!!!!
Thank you, Austin! 🙏
Glory to God for All things, on Earthband as it is in Heaven 🙏
SO GOOD!!! Being in Awe & seeing The Creator in his modalities!
I really enjoy your interviews with Eastern Orthodox representatives. I never felt comfortable in any "protestant" church and could not ignore centuries of writings and teachers before the 1500s. I drifted around as my own authority till I realized that was just not working. I looked at Coptic and a couple of Eastern Orthodox churches. I ended up seeing traditional Latin mass Catholicism being where I belonged. I grew up nominally Catholic but we were not religious at all and I rejected it because of the scandals.
I think I remember you interviewing a Coptic priest. I'd love to hear you interview more Oriental Orthodox representatives (maybe you have). But I'd also love to see you interview representatives of the various traditional Catholic strains there are: SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, FSSP, ICKSP and such.
yes please do FSSP ❤️
I think the title might be worded backwards on accident… The Holy Scriptures are a liturgical text within Orthodoxy… In a sense, the liturgy produced the canon. Still looking forward to watching this tho
based my dude
St. John Chrysostoms liturgy gospel readings actually don't include anything from Revelation due to it predating Revelation being widely accepted as canonical
I met her about year ago maybe two it was Saint Vlads she was such a darling kind woman so brilliant as well.
Dr Humphrey is great. This should be a good one.
Thank you for your video on - looking into Orthodoxy 1 year later. I am protestant (raised in it) but I resonate with the tensions or struggles you mentioned. I still believe in the truth of Protestantism (faith alone) but sometimes, looking into the writings of the Fathers, i wonder why has this immense wisdom been completely thrown out? And I long for the sense of community, the joy of participating in feasts of the Orthodox faith but again I am conflicted with the Mariology and the Intercession of the Saints and just intuitively feel it isn't right based on Scripture and can't imagine the Apostles or Christ teaching it but again, I feel it's because of my Protestant upbringing. Well, all I can say is I resonate with the struggle of considering to convert to Orthodoxy and just pray that May the Lord guide you, me, and anyone experiencing this struggle to the truth.
Hmm, not sure why you believe in "faith alone" when the Bible clearly states otherwise. James 2:24
For the record, we orthodox do not have a Mariology per se, as there is very few things we teach as doctrine with regards to her, and those are essencially derived from our Christology. We call her "Theotokos" ie Mother of God, because she is the Mother of Christ (compare with Luke 1:48, Acts 20:28, 1st Timothy 3:16). And we also call her Ever-Virgin because, well she was the chosen vessel used to create the human nature of Christ. Given that people were not to use the objects set aside for worship in any other capacity, its hardly possible that it would cross either Mary's or Joseph's mind to use the body that produced the body of Christ in any other capacity. Now, regarding the intercession of the saints, we are encouraged to pray for one another (James 5:16), that is to both pray for others and ask the prayers of others, and this is basically the framework in which we view the intercession of the saints. Since those people are now in glory, they do not need our prayers, so we don't pray for them. But we ask their prayers because for us they are alive, "for God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Mark 12:27). And even if we were not needing their intercessions, there is still a place for it as it creates a bond between us and them, pretty much the same way that, to quote Chrysostom "We pray not to inform God or instruct Him but to beseech Him closely, to be made intimate with Him, by continuance in supplication; to be humbled; to be reminded of our sins.” Likewise, because in Christ the saints are our brothers and Mary is our mother, we want to be made intimate with them, to be humbled, not solely before God, but also before our own, and to be reminded of our sins, not solely as our failures to be perfect as God is perfect, but also as our failures to transform ourselves the way those, otherwise ordinary people sharing in both our shortcomings and weaknesses, have done so. With all of that being said, the purpose of those lines is not to preach, but instead to help a better understanding of how we perceive our own stuff, so that we can know and understand each other better
@@kostpap3554 don’t forget about mentioning our belief in the dormition and assumption of the mother of God
@@diegobarragan4904 While we know both to be true by tradition and experience, those aren't official doctrines in the sense that they are not proclaimed dogmatically binding by an ecumenical council the same way God-birthing and Ever-virginity are, hence why I did not mention them. I do not want to add food to the plate of someone who has difficulty chewing what's already there, lest he throws away the whole of it.
@@kostpap3554 yes they are dogmatic because we liturgically celebrate it universally as a feast day. Our liturgics are dogma. You cannot be orthodox and reject these things.
The most striking thing about this interview was the closing exhortation in Dr. Humphrey's summary of the Gospel--the call to enter Christ's Holy Church. It felt personally, palpably, directed to Austin, though Dr. Humphrey meant it to apply generally.
Brilliant, thank you.
I'm confused. Why would anyone object to calling the Divine Liturgy a "service"? I am Orthodox. I have a theology degree from an Orthodox seminary - and a shelf full of liturgy books, many of which have the word "service" in the title. We say the priest "serves" the Liturgy, and the boys who assist him at the altar are "altar servers". To refer to the Liturgy as a "service" is standard anglophone Orthodox usage.
The equivalence of service and worship is even biblical. "When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain." (Exodus 3:12b) Other translations say "worship". The Hebrew '-v-d conveys both meanings.
I could've used your backup when I was getting flooded with comments in my Orthodox church tour video!
Perhaps people just being a bit pedantic?
@@GospelSimplicity I’m an Greek Orthodox priest, and I fully agree. Wasn’t even going to bother. But now that someone did the effort to mention it. ;-)
To serve = Latreia = worship = working = liturgy.
Stop the scholastic translation already. 😅
I agree too. I attend an evangelical congragation that calls our Sunday gatherings "worship services". But I have to ask, is anything being served here or is anyone performing some required duty? Not that I can tell. After experiencing Orthodox liturgies, I can now see how the Sunday gathering of Christians can properly be called a service.
If we view church gatherings through the lens of a religious "production" (planned singing and teaching) then we don't find much info in the New Testament writings, but if we view our gatherings through the lens of a connected body ministering to each other... then the New Testament is full of detailed guidance.
Austin, thank you for yet another edifying and mind-opening video! Please consider inviting Sarah Ruden, author of "Paul Among the People," for a chat. Her book is amazing, and I am surprised to say that, because I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and Ruden is...a Quaker! (If I remember correctly) She has a very eye-opening chapter about women and head coverings, bringing in historical context about the Greco-Roman world few other authors ever mention. God bless you and your work!
In 111-113 AC, Caius Plinius sent an epistle to emperor Traian where he told how Christians are killed. Also, He told to the emperor that Christians, each of them , sang and they eat an innocent food when they met on a certain day. => The first Christians had the holy eucharist and and they worshiped God together not at home 100% even if they were in danger of being killed
Hi Austin, this was great! As a future catholic priest (eastern rite) and lover of ancient Mass (eastern and western rites) , could you call someone to present Roman Mass in this light (of the Bible), cause it also has manny references with the Scripture and magnificent symoblism? Maybe fr. Chad Ripperger or someone simmilar, thanks! Also fr deacon Dragani for eastern catholicism talk. I havent seen these 2 topics and I think they would be awesome. God bless you in Jesus name!
This was wonderful! Thank you. Regarding the topic of the presumed inherent Patriarchy of the Church; One of the ancient mystical teaching of Orthodoxy is that Christ is the groom and The Church is the Bride (which is in a few senses taken from the side of Christ who is the new Adam). In other words, male and female.
One of the best descriptions of the Eucharist liturgy is by Justin the Martyr.
3:40 honestly yeah sometimes I worry about that, but honestly coming across a convert that came in because they are genuinely on a journey to discover what the truth is and part of that journey is inquiring into orthodoxy I feel overjoyed because that is why I want people toconvert.
True worship is learning to love sacrificialy as Jesus did. As James said, "Pure religion (worship) ...is this, To visit the fatherless and widows...
It would be cool to see a video on Ethiopian Orthodox
They need to become Orthodox first
@@mariorizkallah5383 they are mate
10/10
I’m a new subscriber, and I just want to say love the inclusion of female voices on your channel (and the channel in general!) Would love to see an interview with Dr. Sr. Vassa Larin!
Thanks! It's something I really value. I'd love to have Dr. Sr. Vassa on!
Anyone involved in "Public Heterodoxy" and the Wheel should not have any sort of platform.
There is a veil in the sanctuary holding the Blessed Sacrament - the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. A woman wears a head-covering ( often a veil) because women, as mothers, also hold the body of Christ - baptized babies. This is a Catholic understanding as handed over to me by a priest of the SSPX.
Never heard that! That's interesting
7:2 Stand in the gate of the LORD's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD. Jeremiah
Liturgy and service mean the same thing. Liturgy is the service (work) of the people. The work or service is that of worship. In modern parlance of course the words do tend to describe more than just that of course.
You can never know worship from your brains interpretation and application of the Bible outside of the historical ongoing apostolic tradition that Paul exhorts us to keep. This can only be found in the Orthodox Church. Jesus established the Church he did not throw the Bible down from heaven and say follow the book.
Re: 26:45 - Mar Addai is St. Thaddeus, either one of the twelve, or one of the seventy (it is unclear), and Mar Mari is his disciple in Syria/Persia/Mesopotamia (Edessa, Nineveh, Nisibis, etc.), making them key founders of the Church of the East. Their liturgy, like the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, had its finalized form later (like with including the Anaphora of Theodore of Mopsuestia), but even if the basic structure as we know it today was formed in second century, elements would go back to the first if we believe in the original attribution (same with Coptic liturgy of St. Mark, or the west Syriac liturgy of St. James). I'm not sure why she thinks that only fragments of Mar Addai and Mar Mari's liturgy exist though, because the liturgy is still used to this day in the Assyrian Church of the East. Perhaps only ancient fragments, in the same way that we have ancient fragments of the NT, but our complete copies are from a bit later?
@Gospel Simplicity Austin can you please invite @William Albrecht from patristic pillars & @Erick Ybarra.Thanks Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
I've already had both of them on the channel and will have Erick back on soon
@GospelSimplicity ok looking forward to @Erick Ybarra and you together soon please. Thanks
That's true. "God showed up" is an effect of the Consummatory-cultared-mind, as she said "He was already there to begin with. Inviting you."
Modern Pentecostal and Charismatic 'worship' is also ultimately me-centered. The catophatic emotivism is the fuel in which God is the supporting character and we the main role. We need to turn back to the apophatic and embodiment (like sacraments or rituals), in light of that; I must however say that the West's recent behavior of responding to issues like depression, anxiety, suicide, nihilism & etc. with practices like mindfulness, contemplation, breathwork, stoicism, and of course serious play is really detoxing us of certain grips that the principalities & powers have over us. Christianity has built itself a bad reputation for the world to reconsider it up front again so easily, yet Goodness still finds a way in to heal us; whether in handing us over to our own devices & destruction so that we learn the hard way from rock-bottom, or in sending a prophet of whatever kind. Always in preparation for the Second Coming (The Logos cosmically embodied and all-in-all).
Biblical worship: In a temple, on an altar by a priest through an offering in front of a tabernacle.
First and foremost this was a beautiful and well flowing interview. I always enjoy when you dive into the Eastern Traditions, that being said....
I have a few questions that I hope could be asked one day:
1.) In the earliest church history or what was recorded wasn't it non believers that were denied Communion until being taught and educated?
2.) If the church was Jewish before it was Greek who had the authority to determine what was the true church? Orthodoxy has its set of beliefs but some Christians outside of the Orthodox tradition believe the same thing but are looked at as outsiders? Would this at all be similar to Judaizing or perhaps what Jesus said in Matthew 23:13?
3.) If the church does not move in the gifts of the Spirit and everything is fulfilled by the priest how can a believer ever function in his own ministry when the work of the 5 fold ministry is to equip the church for the work of the ministry? I heard you can't even pray for the sick unless a priest does it or prophecy, or function in any of the gifts mentioned by Paul in Corinthians, let alone become a 5 fold minister yourself, you just have to be laity unless you have a grand education, even to be a monk you have to be well educated. If this is true does it not cut other people off from doing what God might have called them to do even if being rightly submitted to a spiritual father?
4.) If the Orthodox was unchanged since the Apostles what is the sentiment about Ambrosiaster admitting that things were changed? Remember this document until medieval times was allegedly from Saint Ambrose and was written and used by the church since the time of the Pontificate of Damasus.
11And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
By apostles Paul means bishops, and by prophets he means expositors of the Scriptures. It may be true that in the early days there were prophets like Agabus and the four virgins, as is recorded in the Acts of the Apostles, but this was in order to support the beginnings of the faith. Nowadays it is interpreters [of Scripture] who are called prophets. The evangelists are deacons, as Philip was.46 Although they are not priests, they are free to evangelize without their own pulpit, just like Stephen and the above-mentioned Philip. The pastors may be readers, who instruct the people with readings, because man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.48 The teachers are the exorcists because in the church they are the ones who restrain and beat the unruly. They are also the ones who used to teach children their lessons, a custom which is found among the Jews and which was inherited by us, but which has become obsolete through neglect. Among these people, who came after the bishop, it is further to be understood that there were those who were said to prophesy because they expounded the hidden meaning of Scripture, particularly because they brought out the words of future hope, which is not the function of the presbyterate. All the orders are found in the bishop, who is the chief priest, that is to say, the prince of the priests, as well as the chief prophet, evangelist and so on, in order to fill the offices of the church’s ministry.
However, once churches were established all over the place and offices set up, the system changed from what it had originally been. At the beginning they had all preached and baptized on whatever day and at whatever time was convenient. Philip did not fix a day or a time for the eunuch’s baptism, nor did he assign a period of fasting beforehand. Paul and Silas did not waste any time in baptizing the jailer and all his household,50 nor did Peter have clerks or set a day when he would baptize Cornelius with all his household. He did not do it himself in fact, but ordered the brethren from Joppa who had gone up with him to Cornelius to do so. Up to that time too, no one had been ordained, apart from seven deacons.
It was to allow the people to grow and multiply that at the beginning everyone was allowed to evangelize, to baptize and to expound the Scriptures in the church. But when the church became established in every place, congregations were formed and rectors and other officials were appointed, with the result that after that no clerk who was not ordained would dare perform a function which was not appointed or assigned to him. Thus the church began to be governed by a different order and system, because if everyone could do it, there would have been chaos and the whole thing would have looked vulgar and improper. This is why nowadays deacons do not preach in public nor do they (or laymen) baptize, nor are believers anointed on any day whatsoever, unless they happen to be sick.
Therefore not everything written by the apostle coincides with the order of things which now exists in the church, because the apostolic writings describe what happened at the beginning. For example, Paul calls Timothy, whom he had made a presbyter, a bishop, because at first presbyters and bishops were the same thing, and when he eventually left the scene Timothy succeeded him. Even today in Egypt presbyters perform confirmations if the bishop is not present. But because succeeding presbyters were not fit to hold the chief offices, the system was changed by judicious foresight, so that it would not be his order but his merit which would create a bishop who would be elected by the judgment of many priests. This was done in order to prevent some unworthy person from claiming the office and becoming a scandal to many. In the law priests were Levites born into the tribe of Aaron. But now everyone belongs to the priestly tribe, as the apostle Peter says: For we are a royal and priestly nation, and therefore anyone can become a priest.
Ambrosiaster, Commentaries on Galatians-Philemon, ed. Thomas C. Oden and Gerald L. Bray, trans. Gerald L. Bray, Ancient Christian Texts (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press, 2009), 48-50.
I would love to see you interview www.youtube.com/@POAAS about the Ethiopian Orthodox tradition
How can you have true worship without having a clear presentation of the gospel of Christ, including the sinfulness and depravity of human beings, and complete in ability to come to God, without God’s help?
total depravity is a false doctrine
Because we Preach the Gospel that the Apostles did.
Not a Neo-Augustinian interpretation invented by Lawyers and Defrocked Priests.
So if I'm alone in my prayer closet at home, praying to God, I'm not worshipping God unless I make a clear presentation of the gospel of Christ? Because worship and presenting the gospel are not two separate activities?
@Ellie Bradlee, prayer qua prayer is not necessarily an act of worship, but it can be offered as an act of worship. But your point is irrelevent to the question I asked the OP.
But liturgy, "work of the people," is service, a service. It's a perfectly good word.
Service to God i think is what she wanted to emphasize
Service is used in most English Translations to undercut the reality that the Apostles Worshipped God Liturgically as their forefathers did.
I take it she doesn't have a high opinion of many protestant denominations, where it's as if God is your emotional pimp and sermons are supposed to be long, sensual experiences.
Which Orthodoxy does she belong to, Greek, Coptic, Russian, Assyrian, Oriental, Ethiopian, Armenian...etc????
Canonical Orthodoxy she makes this clear. It might actually help to listen what people say about themselves.
Eastern Orthodoxy.
Lol the fact that u say "coptic..., oriental, ethiopian, armenian..." shows u dont know what ur talking about.
Assyrians are nestorians. Coptics, Ethiopians, Armenians, Syriacs, Indians, Eritrean(compromise the Oriental church) which is MONOPHYSITE aka Non-Chalcedonian. If you lump all these heretical groups with Orthodoxy, than you probably shouldn’t be talking about theology since your pride is clearly showing.
I think we are all the same more than we admit. I love all orthodox Christians families and It doesn’t matter as long as she is orthodox family.
The Bible declares that there is only One mediator between God and man and Mary is not on that list.
My guy - there is a difference between mediation and intercession. While Jesus Christ is our only mediator, every Christian is called to be an intercessor. & those who die in Christ are alive in Christ - His body is not divided.
Friend, notice that that verse in 1 Timothy is surrounded by injunctions for us to mediate for each other! Obviously, then, this cannot be an absolute statement that denies the mediation of human beings (now alive or asleep in the LORD) for each other? Do you pray for your friends? Why, if there is only one mediator: why are your prayers necessary, and why does Christ tell us to pray for each other? I would be interested in your fuller response to my book Mediation and the Immediate God: Scriptures, The Church, and Knowing God.
Why dont you ever invite eastern catholic? Like fr Dragani?
Because no one takes them serious. If you want authentic eastern Christianity you go to the source not those playing pretend
You could go to the Maronites. There is no eastern equivalent.
@@JamesMartinelli-jr9mh as a former maronite, good luck, very little are authentic to the syriac antiochian tradition, as majority are latinized and just look like latin rite Catholics
@@diegobarragan4904 okay Jay Dyer. 🤦
@@petars4444 He's not wrong though.
Nowhere in the Scripture does it state that Mary is our mediator. This is contrary to the gospel
To be contrary to Scripture, there would need to be a statement in Scripture saying that Mary is NOT a mediator. You are assuming Mary is not a mediator by fact of omission. Contradiction and omission are not the same thing. The Orthodox do not hold to your doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Show us in Scripture where it says that Scripture itself is the sole or even highest authority in terms of Church teaching?
@@lukethomas1430 It also doesn't say not to slap yourself on a check every time you hear Mary mentioned. If you're giving this argument-why don't you do that if it is free for all as long as it is not in Scripture? Every gnostic and new age Christian can use the same technique.
Willy doesn't have to assume-the God-breathed Word of God tells you so in 1 Timothy 2:5. ONE is 1.
@@CastleofRed Now, to respond to your specific citation of Holy Scripture, Christ is indeed the only mediator between God the Father and man. But this is where your own particular interpretation of 1 Tim 2:5 differs from that of the Saints of the Church.
At this moment, I'm communicating with you through the medium of RUclips. RUclips is mediating between us. It stands in the middle of you and I. My word is translated to you through it. If I knew you better, perhaps I might send you a message by email, or perhaps via letter, in which case my word would be mediated through paper.
Why did Christ become incarnate? To restore man's fallen nature. HOW did He become incarnate. As the Nicene Creed affirms, "of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary..." So, the question is, by what medium did the Divine Logos become incarnate? Through whom was He translated to earth? From whom did He acquire His human nature, the very human nature that made Him fully MAN? Was it not the Virgin Mary? Was she not the mediator, or mediatress rather, for the Incarnation? Having taken on human nature, Christ then became the sole mediator between man and God the Father. It is Christ who is the mediator between God the Father and human nature.
So why do we "pray to Mary" then, you might ask. We ask her to intercede with her son on our behalf, not because we can't pray to Him ourselves, since we most certainly do so, but because sons generally listen to what their mothers have to say. Why do we honour her so highly? Because she did something you and I, if we're both honest, must admit we fail to do on a daily basis: she demonstrated perfect obedience to God. She lived a holy life. She became the earthly vessel for the Son of God Himself. She is not only the most significant human being to ever live; she is the most significant who WILL ever live, notwithstanding the Godman Himself. No other human being will ever do what she did. She is the Mother of God, the mother of the Christ you claim to know, and yet it seems you have trouble honouring her for that sacrifice, the sacrifice of her own will to serve that of God. You might ask yourself a question: do you think you hold her in as high esteem as her son does?
@@lukethomas1430 This reminds me of this funny meme where, on one side, RCC/OE for pages (yawn) explains why venerating icons is not worship, and on the other side, none-EO/RCC says: "Dude, just don't bow to wood."
You may be RCC or EO, but try to step away from the teachings of philosophers and poets and cease assuming who Mary was and how much adoration you must give her with bowing, incense, akathists, and kissing. Instead, read the Bible and ask yourself why didn't she ask such "imaginative" questions as you do and, instead, plainly asked: "How will this be, since I'm a virgin?" Because she was a simple, practical woman. Why don't you want to see her as such? She bore the Son of God, is not a goddess, doesn't need people bowing to her, and is not a CoMediatrix nor a Queen of Heaven, otherwise, Apostoles would've told us she is. She was called a perpetual virgin in a gnostic gospel, and only around 5th century (with Dormition etc.), she started being elevated (becomes the Ark etc.). None of this is in the Scriptures nor pre-Nicea. She bore Him, is honorable, end of the story. Honoring and remembering her doesn't mean I should worship the creature. Offering prayers, kissing icons, bowing, and offering incense *IS* associated with worship, and you can tell yourself it is *just* veneration, but it won't change the fact it is an act of bypassing Christ. Ask yourself a question: "Am I participating in an abominable act of men-made "tradition"?
Pray then like this:
"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name."
See?
@@CastleofRed disagree your information is wrong. Mary was always a virgin. The Fathers of the Reformation didn’t disagree with that. Read what Calvin and Luther wrote on it. Protestantism is so far left of what the Church fathers taught that they’re aren’t even orthodox Protestants anymore.
Mary was a virgin, it’s clear in Scripture she was a virgin and major consensus from the early Church Fathers she remained a virgin as well.
And Mary is a type of mediator just as when you pray for a friend you become a type of mediator. It’s called a prayer of intercession. Christ is THE mediator between us and the Father.
And bowing is about giving respect and honor. The Israelites bowed before the gold serpent Moses had made so they would be cured from snake bite. Now obviously that wasn’t idolatry or do you disagree?
No Catholic or EO thinks Mary is God nor do we worship Mary is God. Worship of God is called Adoration. As a Protestant do you know what prayers of Adoration are? They’re resourced for God alone
When the first disciples met together in homes, did they try to recreate the synagogue liturgical service? Doesn’t seem like it. There was a orderly sharing of hymns, psalms, teaching, prayers and a meal. I’m sure the influence of the synagogue liturgy was strong, but how we answer this question depends on whether or not we are looking for the christian life to be mapped out for us like it was in the Torah. It seems to me like the point of grace is to not rely on blueprints to say “only our church is doing it right, everyone else is wrong”
The Home Churches we have found look like they were retrofitted to be like the Temples.
u 098 7t je u tome da 89iitqdPovucite prstom isječke kako biste ih izbrisali
Worship should be invisible. Alone in the closed like Jesus said. Coming together as a church should look like people setting aside any superficial differences and breaking the bread, reading scripture, talking about the word.
Trying to say "true worship" is like trying to say we are the one true church. That is wicked. True worship you can not define. Two mules loaded with dirt can become true worship. I would rather have 2 mules loaded with dirt over all the icons or statues of Mary in the world.
@Ellie Bradlee Sorry I forget already what the video was about. I also don't know what you refer to about the group who spoke to Moses. I just think it is wrong for Christians to try defining "true worship". If it was so important then Jesus would have had 3 years to teach the routine.
Instead Jesus just told us how to pray and also how to come together in his name and break the break in remembrance. Even Paul's letters to the first churches can be read and I do not see any of the Roman catholic or eastern orthodox tradition. Paul seems to spend more time reminding people what not to do at church rather than what to do at church.
I prefer my old fashioned church and dislike modern churches which are too casual. The truth is that they are our brethren and can come together in Jesus name and he can be present with them also.
If you are like the Roman catholics and have our altar for a sacrifice but you sacrifice Jesus again every day at mass and your bread is not bread it becomes bloodless flesh. I feel like that is something Paul would write letters to condemn. Jesus died one time for the sins of the world. No more sacrifice is required the debt was repaid in full. Now it is right to read scripture and come together in Jesus name and break the bread in remembrance. It is better to make your altar in to a table to serve the Lords Supper rather than keep an altar to sacrifice Jesus at every mass. This is what many protestant brothers got correctly. Which the catholics and eastern orthodox got wrong. It is troubling that they are the two churches that constantly boast of being the one true church. Yet do not seem to know scripture very well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.
@@br.m maybe you should take a few years to figure out what you said you didn't know before coming on social media to pontificate.
Why do have to be so careful to say the "P" word? What is wrong with a patriarchy of that patriarchy is a manifestation of His created order. Also, what is so difficult about putting on a veil? It's soft, it's beautiful, it's pious, it's symbolic, it's a witness to theological truth. Sure its foreign, but so is everything else about entering into an Orthodox church, and yet we go anyways, we prostrate, we venerate, we cross ourselves, etc. I really appreciate this video, but what does "we have a conversation about should a women veil mean"? Ultimately what will that conversation end with? A yes or a no? Can we have a conversation about me fornicating every once in a while. No we cannot, clearly the answer is no, so what can't we settle on a straight answer regarding the veil? Clearly the answer is yes a woman should veil to promote theological truth and worship properly and be in communion with Christ, and whoever says that requiring a women to veil will lead to men abusing women, please help me connect those two ideas. Where does Paul say that Gods created order with a patriarchy at the top somehow means Men are "better" than women and can abuse them, and subjugate them? So if I as a man kid the hand of the priest, am I saying the priest is above me and better than me and can subjugate me. No, it has NOTHING to do with that, so please let's stop tippy toeing around this subject. A woman should veil for the right reasons, as stated above and that's it, and both women and men should understand those reasons and not take away or add to them.
She's very biblically a literate the dead are dead they're not closer to Jesus until the resurrection dear one, why would you think Christ couldn't be invoked and you need to add saints there's this is ridiculous thinking few believe Christ could bear your shin you don't think you could pray to him don't you pray to anybody dead
Ironic you say that because the Bible says Jesus is the God of the living not of the dead, God bless
She’s making so many factual mistakes: lit. of Addai & Mari is preserved completely but not used by the Greeks, but by the Assyrians.
She seems very passionate but what’s she’s doing in this book is devotional literature/creative theology with little historical basis.
Means public work not work of the people, gawd
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