As a Protestant who grew up with penal substitution, the key passages that have shifted my views on this are Leviticus 16 (especially verses 30, 33); Hebrews 9-10; 1 John 1:7, 9; and Psalm 51. There are more, but those have been especially important for me. Edit: And also Fr. Stephen De Young helping me to see Passover as covenantal instead of penal.
I am also someone who has come out of PSA, having been taught it as equal to the gospel growing up. It is an incredibly destructive false teaching. I am thankful God rescued me from it. I have done a lot of work over the past year with regard to PSA and what the scriptures actually say. Having said that, I wanted to commend you for the wonderful combination of scriptures you put together here. Together, they pack a powerful punch. Thanks for sharing
Thank you for doing this talk. I found it to be edifying. As someone who was raised Protestant and taught that false teachings such as PSA were the gospel, I find the Orthodox views to be much more consistent with what the scriptures actually say.
Great video! Can never have enough Orthodox videos on the subject of the atonement online. Would love to see a video tying together the Atonement with the Eucharist demonstrating clearly from the Fathers and from the Scriptures how they go together. "Proclaiming the death according to the flesh of the only begotten Son of God, that is, of Jesus Christ, and confessing his resurrection from the dead and his ascension into heaven, we celebrate the unbloody sacrifice in the churches, and we thus approach the spiritual blessings and are made holy, becoming partakers of the holy flesh and of the precious blood of Christ, the Savior of us all." - Cyril of Alexandria 444 AD
Adonis this quote from St.Cyril is powerful. Yes, the connection between the Atonement and Eucharist is worthy of its own show. Thanks for sharing this fam! ☦️
@@TheTransfiguredLifeIn context of a new show on the Relationship of the Atonement and the Eucharist, please include/discuss the Jewish and early Greek Christian concept and understanding of “zakhor” and “anamnesis”… a living memory which makes present again, sacramentally, mystically, yet really, all the saving events of the past in the life of Jesus Christ… Excellent show, hosts and guest speaker were very knowledgeable and engaging! Thank you 🙏🏼☦️
For more quality Orthodox content from Fr.Joseph Lucas PhD, visit his new RUclips channel "Apostolic Tradition" youtube.com/@apostolictradition?si=49dC_QhKA_2OdOPQ
"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled through the death of His Son, much more, having been (past tense) reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Amen. That happened to me one evening in June of 1993, and I was literally changed in a moment, and forever. I continue to grow, but I first had to be born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That happened while I was driving. He changed me in ways I never even wanted to be changed. That was the day of saving repentant faith. He doesn’t go back on His promises, and He who began the ultimate good work in me will be faithful to complete it. I could not have really understood all of this until I experienced that new birth. I was reborn, adopted, and began to grow. God will never disown me, and He is the one who is continuing to transform me throughout this life, until I am perfected in His physical presence in eternity. Throughout 18 years of sacraments, I had none of this. It only happened through surrender and trust in God and His ability to take over and transform me. So, just as that passage teaches, I have already been completely and permanently reconciled with God through the death of Jesus, and from that decisive moment on, God has promised to complete His work of complete and final salvation through the resurrected life of Jesus. If I had not experienced that second birth, and the accompanying invasion of the Holy Spirit, I suppose I would still be trying to achieve something like a gradual process of theosis, and never actually experiencing permanent reconciliation with the Triune God, and the true transformation that comes from that decisive moment. I truly wish that same salvation, today, for everyone reading this. Simply surrender, and trust completely in Him alone for His eternal mercy and grace, instead of trusting in yourself. In that moment, you will begin to experience the unstoppable, life changing transformation that only God can cause. Then you will begin to see His word in a whole new light, and you will begin to see Romans 5:8-11 as the awesome, magnificent truth that it is to everyone who has already received the free gift of eternal life.
Great episode, I’d love to hear a more in depth conversation on issues the orthodox view of atonement has with PSA. I’m not orthodox but an eastern leaning Christian who has been studying the atonement. After many years believing PSA it is hard to break and hard to grasp the differences at times.
Salvation is the whole process, from the Lord's drawing us to him, through the Lord's justification and our reconciliation with him, through the daily walk in the Spirit with a contrite heart, to the resurrection of the glorified body. It is all by grace and by the empowerment of the Spirit. It is available to all who will surrender to the Lord Jesus and let him do his work in us. This assured salvation is the covenant in his blood. It is God's promise, not our achievement.
By the graciousness of God . Turn to God / Draw near to God / by confession / prayer /fasting … remaining obedient and humble and loving from your heart .
55:27 Can the father provide clarification with regard to his stated acceptance of substitutionary language? By substitution, doesn’t he intend to communicate the idea of “on behalf of” rather than “instead of” or “in place of”? As far as I can tell, if one uses this word in the way it is commonly used today which is consistent with its dictionary definition with regard to what Christ did for us, they would have to affirm He died and will remain dead eternally or He died and is suffering in hell eternally, depending on whether they believe in eternal death or eternal conscious torment. In case what I am trying to communicate isn’t clear, let me put it another way. Did Christ die eternally? If your answer is no then you must deny that He did that in our place. Did Christ die and is now consciously suffering eternally? If your answer is no then you must deny that He did that in our place. Do we still die in this life? If your answer is yes then you must deny Christ did that in our place. Do we still suffer in this life? If your answer is yes then you must deny Christ did that in our place.
@@bradleyperry1735 He neither gave a quote where he was getting it from, nor would that quote be an innovation, for the Bible and the Church Fathers teach the same.
Anselm’s model isn’t heretical or against the Orthodox faith, it’s just inadequate as an apologetic model, but the theme is still valid. St Nicholas Kabasilas uses the same system and language to describe the atonement but puts it in the full Orthodox context.
The issue with the Cain and Abel example is that the Bible clearly does not contain every interaction between God and man. Of course He had to instruct them. James is clear that all wisdom, knowledge, and understanding come from the Father.
God's justice is distributive (settings things in right order) rather than retributive. usually, the term God's justice colloquially refers to an imported concept of medieval satisfaction and honor which is decidedly not God's justice. God does not need, as Fr said in the video
God upholds His “justice” (this is a human term as far as God goes) in that He upholds the penalty for sin (death) whilst undoing it entirely. But we must remember that death is not an active punishment, but a natural consequence of separation from Gods Life as well as a gift to preserve man from becoming like the demons, immortal and evil. When we speak of death as a punishment, this is just one limited way of speaking.
@@joshf2218 Making a punishment a mere "consequence" is removing God's role as Judge and Superintendent of all that happens. The wages of sin is not just a consequence, wages are something deliberately paid to someone for a reason. Karma does not replace God.
The wrath of God is absolutely throughout the scriptures. It is of course an image, a metaphor but to completely jettison the language seems to be really bad. Gods wrath being poured out on the son absolutely has to be rejected though.
It’s more that a ransom was paid to death, rather than a debt payment. Ransom generally means a payment made to release someone from the bondage of slavery or some form of captivity. Debt is more about paying off what is due or owed (paying one’s debt to society). This language of “paying a ransom to death” is the language used to describe how Christ’s death on the Cross “ransomed” us from death by destroying it through his resurrection. In Jesus Christ we had been freed and are no longer slaves.
It sound like you think of death as of some entity that exists, has substance and deserves attention, ransom, food, water, etc. Death can be compared with the darkness that does not have existence and substance as it is, in reality, absence of light. So the death is absence of life, or to be more precise, absence of life giving Spirit. How can you communicate to the darkness to make it happy and eventually go away.? By turning the light switch on. And that action would NOT make it happy as it is not an entity, it does not have feelings. How did the Lord "pay debt to the death".? It is not entity, it does not have existence... so... what He did was to pour out His life giving Spirit that make death disappear. We, however, need to claim His free gift in order to attain life as He does not want to impose Himself onto anyone and trample over His gift to the men - free will. This is where juridical model of atonement fails miserably and to whom ransom was actually paid remains unanswered - none of the possibilities make sense. Thus, Orthodox Church, in preservation of the original Christian doctrine, preaches Theosis in place of juridical model.
No, I do not think that death is literally some sort of entity. I was just stating what the Ransom theory is getting at in general. The personification of death or the grave is metaphorical language used by Paul himself “oh death where is thy sting, oh grave where is thy victory. “ 1 Corinthians 15:55-57. More importantly, the language used in the theory is not one of paying off a debt, but a ransom. There is a big difference between the two, but this is still using metaphorical language. Jesus didn’t literally show up with a bag of gold to pay death the ransom to set us free. In the Ransom theory death accepts Christ’s body into it (into the grave), but is destroyed by His Life. Before Christ we were held captive by death. In Christ we have been “ransomed” from death and the fear of it.
Edit: Ransom theory is one of several ways the atonement has been described by the Fathers of the church. Today most Orthodox Christians tend to use the Christos Victor and Recapitulation views of the atonement, but do not necessarily reject Ransom theory. The hymn we sing for Pascha (Easter) says it all in a nutshell: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life”.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
I was baptized into the Orthodox Church yesterday morning!
God grant you many years! Welcome Home!
Theosis is the most encouraging idea I never had any concept for in Reformed protestantism
I’m ex Protestant soon to be baptized into the Orthodox Church God willing+ thank you for all you do guys.
Wow, it's around the corner. Welcome home and thank you! ☦
God bless you and thank you for listening to TTL!
Thank you! Excellent stuff!
As a Protestant who grew up with penal substitution, the key passages that have shifted my views on this are Leviticus 16 (especially verses 30, 33); Hebrews 9-10; 1 John 1:7, 9; and Psalm 51. There are more, but those have been especially important for me.
Edit: And also Fr. Stephen De Young helping me to see Passover as covenantal instead of penal.
I am also someone who has come out of PSA, having been taught it as equal to the gospel growing up. It is an incredibly destructive false teaching. I am thankful God rescued me from it.
I have done a lot of work over the past year with regard to PSA and what the scriptures actually say. Having said that, I wanted to commend you for the wonderful combination of scriptures you put together here. Together, they pack a powerful punch. Thanks for sharing
Saving this for later. Apologies for not having subscribed earlier.
This was really helpful as a new Orthodox convert who is continuing to sharpen the understanding of these important theological issues.
Agreed !
Great episode!
@@IdolKiller Appreciate it my brother! ☦️
@@IdolKiller By the way thanks for slaying Calvinism. Because of you I have never looked at Total Depravity the same lol
You guys can get together and discuss Dositheus maybe?
@@Kinjiro the gnostic or the one over the Synod of Jerusalem?
@@IdolKiller the Synod of Jerusalem :)
This channel continues to edify and inspire me
Thank you for doing this talk. I found it to be edifying. As someone who was raised Protestant and taught that false teachings such as PSA were the gospel, I find the Orthodox views to be much more consistent with what the scriptures actually say.
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Thank you great video ☦️☦️☦️
l'm gonna focus and watch this whole thing tomorrow. looks great!
Great video! Can never have enough Orthodox videos on the subject of the atonement online.
Would love to see a video tying together the Atonement with the Eucharist demonstrating clearly from the Fathers and from the Scriptures how they go together.
"Proclaiming the death according to the flesh of the only begotten Son of God, that is, of Jesus Christ, and confessing his resurrection from the dead and his ascension into heaven, we celebrate the unbloody sacrifice in the churches, and we thus approach the spiritual blessings and are made holy, becoming partakers of the holy flesh and of the precious blood of Christ, the Savior of us all."
- Cyril of Alexandria 444 AD
Adonis this quote from St.Cyril is powerful. Yes, the connection between the Atonement and Eucharist is worthy of its own show. Thanks for sharing this fam! ☦️
@@TheTransfiguredLifeIn context of a new show on the Relationship of the Atonement and the Eucharist, please include/discuss the Jewish and early Greek Christian concept and understanding of “zakhor” and “anamnesis”… a living memory which makes present again, sacramentally, mystically, yet really, all the saving events of the past in the life of Jesus Christ… Excellent show, hosts and guest speaker were very knowledgeable and engaging! Thank you 🙏🏼☦️
Wonderful thank you!
This is a goldmine. Thanks so much!
Your welcome! Also, you have been here since day one. We appreciate you! ☦
🎯 🔑 🔥 🕊
Beautifully said
Thank you, Father Joseph, Father Jonathan, and Luther. Happy New Year!
Happy new year and God bless you!
For more quality Orthodox content from Fr.Joseph Lucas PhD, visit his new RUclips channel "Apostolic Tradition"
youtube.com/@apostolictradition?si=49dC_QhKA_2OdOPQ
Aww! I arrived late.☦️🙏🏾
Glory to God.
Thanks for tuning in chief!
Fr.Joseph 🙌🙌🙌🙌
Foundational episode!
Super good 👍🏼 !
Thanks !!
You are all very kind !!
"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled through the death of His Son, much more, having been (past tense) reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Amen. That happened to me one evening in June of 1993, and I was literally changed in a moment, and forever. I continue to grow, but I first had to be born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That happened while I was driving. He changed me in ways I never even wanted to be changed. That was the day of saving repentant faith. He doesn’t go back on His promises, and He who began the ultimate good work in me will be faithful to complete it.
I could not have really understood all of this until I experienced that new birth.
I was reborn, adopted, and began to grow. God will never disown me, and He is the one who is continuing to transform me throughout this life, until I am perfected in His physical presence in eternity.
Throughout 18 years of sacraments, I had none of this. It only happened through surrender and trust in God and His ability to take over and transform me.
So, just as that passage teaches, I have already been completely and permanently reconciled with God through the death of Jesus, and from that decisive moment on, God has promised to complete His work of complete and final salvation through the resurrected life of Jesus.
If I had not experienced that second birth, and the accompanying invasion of the Holy Spirit, I suppose I would still be trying to achieve something like a gradual process of theosis, and never actually experiencing permanent reconciliation with the Triune God, and the true transformation that comes from that decisive moment.
I truly wish that same salvation, today, for everyone reading this.
Simply surrender, and trust completely in Him alone for His eternal mercy and grace, instead of trusting in yourself. In that moment, you will begin to experience the unstoppable, life changing transformation that only God can cause.
Then you will begin to see His word in a whole new light, and you will begin to see Romans 5:8-11 as the awesome, magnificent truth that it is to everyone who has already received the free gift of eternal life.
Great!
Glory to God
I've just been discussing this with some of our parish's catechumens.
Great episode, I’d love to hear a more in depth conversation on issues the orthodox view of atonement has with PSA. I’m not orthodox but an eastern leaning Christian who has been studying the atonement. After many years believing PSA it is hard to break and hard to grasp the differences at times.
PSA can be understood in an Orthodox manner, we would just reject the damning of the Son by the Father. His blood did atone for all sin in the world.
Thanks again Lu. A great video. I didn't realize how different the Protestant and Orthodox views were until I read Two Views of the Cross.
Thanks Cindy. Appreciate it fam! ☦️
Yes, her book on this subject is fantastic! Simple, short and straight to the point.
Let’s go
☦️☦️☦️
Salvation is the whole process, from the Lord's drawing us to him, through the Lord's justification and our reconciliation with him, through the daily walk in the Spirit with a contrite heart, to the resurrection of the glorified body.
It is all by grace and by the empowerment of the Spirit. It is available to all who will surrender to the Lord Jesus and let him do his work in us.
This assured salvation is the covenant in his blood. It is God's promise, not our achievement.
By the graciousness of God . Turn to God / Draw near to God / by confession / prayer /fasting … remaining obedient and humble and loving from your heart .
55:27 Can the father provide clarification with regard to his stated acceptance of substitutionary language? By substitution, doesn’t he intend to communicate the idea of “on behalf of” rather than “instead of” or “in place of”? As far as I can tell, if one uses this word in the way it is commonly used today which is consistent with its dictionary definition with regard to what Christ did for us, they would have to affirm He died and will remain dead eternally or He died and is suffering in hell eternally, depending on whether they believe in eternal death or eternal conscious torment.
In case what I am trying to communicate isn’t clear, let me put it another way.
Did Christ die eternally? If your answer is no then you must deny that He did that in our place.
Did Christ die and is now consciously suffering eternally? If your answer is no then you must deny that He did that in our place.
Do we still die in this life? If your answer is yes then you must deny Christ did that in our place.
Do we still suffer in this life? If your answer is yes then you must deny Christ did that in our place.
Can your guest give the exact quote and source where St Anselm supposedly teaches an "innovation", contrary to Scripture and the Church Fathers?
He explicitly stated what the innovation was…
@@bradleyperry1735 He neither gave a quote where he was getting it from, nor would that quote be an innovation, for the Bible and the Church Fathers teach the same.
Anselm’s model isn’t heretical or against the Orthodox faith, it’s just inadequate as an apologetic model, but the theme is still valid.
St Nicholas Kabasilas uses the same system and language to describe the atonement but puts it in the full Orthodox context.
@ That is incorrect.
What is incorrect?
Please be specific and concise because I can give you exact passages from St Nicholas.
🥄☦️🥄
How did Jesus reconcile us to God? He did something unique.
There would be no suffering. If we could be perfectly faithful to God.
The issue with the Cain and Abel example is that the Bible clearly does not contain every interaction between God and man. Of course He had to instruct them. James is clear that all wisdom, knowledge, and understanding come from the Father.
That is speculation. Throughout Genesis, many people offer sacrifice, and we have no idea what it looks like. It would help to know what sacrifice is.
How does the Orthodox view of the atonement deal with God's justice?
Listen in 6:30 to 9:30
Also, 16:45 to 17:45
It doesn't.
Although it can be argued this is not really the actual Orthodox view.
God's justice is distributive (settings things in right order) rather than retributive.
usually, the term God's justice colloquially refers to an imported concept of medieval satisfaction and honor which is decidedly not God's justice. God does not need, as Fr said in the video
God upholds His “justice” (this is a human term as far as God goes) in that He upholds the penalty for sin (death) whilst undoing it entirely. But we must remember that death is not an active punishment, but a natural consequence of separation from Gods Life as well as a gift to preserve man from becoming like the demons, immortal and evil. When we speak of death as a punishment, this is just one limited way of speaking.
@@joshf2218 Making a punishment a mere "consequence" is removing God's role as Judge and Superintendent of all that happens. The wages of sin is not just a consequence, wages are something deliberately paid to someone for a reason. Karma does not replace God.
the first time He came as the lam the second time He is the judge
He self-published…..it’s $40 for paperback on Amazon. That’s incredibly steep!!
The wrath of God is absolutely throughout the scriptures. It is of course an image, a metaphor but to completely jettison the language seems to be really bad. Gods wrath being poured out on the son absolutely has to be rejected though.
Even Paul clarifies that he speaks in a human way when he mentioned the wrath of God.
I've heard that the debt was paid to death itself- is this Orthodox?
It’s more that a ransom was paid to death, rather than a debt payment. Ransom generally means a payment made to release someone from the bondage of slavery or some form of captivity. Debt is more about paying off what is due or owed (paying one’s debt to society). This language of “paying a ransom to death” is the language used to describe how Christ’s death on the Cross “ransomed” us from death by destroying it through his resurrection. In Jesus Christ we had been freed and are no longer slaves.
It sound like you think of death as of some entity that exists, has substance and deserves attention, ransom, food, water, etc. Death can be compared with the darkness that does not have existence and substance as it is, in reality, absence of light. So the death is absence of life, or to be more precise, absence of life giving Spirit. How can you communicate to the darkness to make it happy and eventually go away.? By turning the light switch on. And that action would NOT make it happy as it is not an entity, it does not have feelings. How did the Lord "pay debt to the death".? It is not entity, it does not have existence... so... what He did was to pour out His life giving Spirit that make death disappear. We, however, need to claim His free gift in order to attain life as He does not want to impose Himself onto anyone and trample over His gift to the men - free will. This is where juridical model of atonement fails miserably and to whom ransom was actually paid remains unanswered - none of the possibilities make sense. Thus, Orthodox Church, in preservation of the original Christian doctrine, preaches Theosis in place of juridical model.
No, I do not think that death is literally some sort of entity. I was just stating what the Ransom theory is getting at in general. The personification of death or the grave is metaphorical language used by Paul himself “oh death where is thy sting, oh grave where is thy victory. “ 1 Corinthians 15:55-57. More importantly, the language used in the theory is not one of paying off a debt, but a ransom. There is a big difference between the two, but this is still using metaphorical language. Jesus didn’t literally show up with a bag of gold to pay death the ransom to set us free. In the Ransom theory death accepts Christ’s body into it (into the grave), but is destroyed by His Life. Before Christ we were held captive by death. In Christ we have been “ransomed” from death and the fear of it.
Edit: Ransom theory is one of several ways the atonement has been described by the Fathers of the church. Today most Orthodox Christians tend to use the Christos Victor and Recapitulation views of the atonement, but do not necessarily reject Ransom theory. The hymn we sing for Pascha (Easter) says it all in a nutshell: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life”.
It’s just different ways to paint the same picture.
Converts need to learn that Orthodox theology is rich and flexible in delivering the message.
Wonderful, thank you!