Yeah I switched from the Brits that I was enjoying to Germans when my friend said he was using British and wanted me to use Gerries. Wish I had soon. Basic army build are; - Adhering to the rule of 6. If you have 6 guys with rifles then moving, long range and soft cover is a 6 to hit. If not moving but long range then still a size to hit. Statistically one 6 will occur which is enough for the pin. If 7+ is needed then usually any extra shots are wasted being paid for just to get the 6 followed by 6. So basically, units of 6 guys is usually what I adhere to. - Panzerfausts mean that you can skip tanks and dedicated AT unit like AT guns to save points for other stuff - 100% always buy 2 extra guys to go with your officer. The Germans don't get much/ any free stuff so a nice little combat unit with 3 x ARs is just too good to pass up. Also, and more importantly, it turns a near useless single model in to a small combat unit that supports your main units - Avoid ARs in the main units and stick with SMGs - always have an inexperienced mortar if possible - always take all 6 infantry units of 6 or more guys each squad - take a load of trucks and a motorbike for pins and mobile MGs for 54pts or less - always go regular as it doesn't have the minus to your shooting, but use the officer to bolster their morale up to effectively vet status. - always snap-too to overwhelm the portion of the field you're attacking and push them on to the back foot. - take MGs on vehicles only, not in squads, unless doing a small vet unit with double LMGS to put pins out from your back line maybe. And even then not quite worth it.... - I barely use snipers, flamethrower, Panzerschreks or any expensive units that have one dice to shoot (like AT guns or tanks with their main gun Usually I find I have enough that each squads can put a pin on other units, and with the fausts spread across all 6 units I've got the field covered for AT. Each squad is cheap enough to go down if needs be if shot at by a shooty expensive enemy unit, and easy enough to lose entirely without too much of a dent in the overall army performance. I usually have about 10+ pinning units per army (sub 800pts, ignoring the mortar) and if you focus and use your officer on your schwerpunkt he more than compensates for having only regular troops and snap-to pushes the opponent on to the back foot right where you're attacking (usually 😘) Not so great if many buildings are involved (light on HE, and no flamers) but seem to be doing really well with this sort of build. I took out a friend's vet unit by getting 10 pins on it and he had another 2 units with 7 and 8 pins each. He had to give up in the end. Hope that helps, it's just where I'm at in my German journey.... ❤🤓🤓
I play Germans exclusively. I really liked this video. I have a tournament this weekend using an infantry list. I will let you know how it goes and what my list looked like.
I sure hope the rumoured Bolt Action 3rd edition clears up a few things to make atrocities such as this list and other Rainbow and Unicorn lists obsolete... until the tryhards break the new system and meta whatever else becomes undercosted since they will have fixed criminally undercosted MMG and autocannon vehicle spam.
I hear what your saying, this is irregular for my standard games. Our local scene is typically one generic platoon, a sensible order dice cap and 1 flamer/1 MRL.
Hey ....great thought process. I'm of the same mind on a lot of this with my Germans. I've had great success with the 250/9's. I have two painted up and love their harassing power.
5 Kugelblitz saw combat. 3 were built, 2 were conversions of Panzer IVs. Their movements are actually well documented considering they are experimental tanks. On was destroyed in Spichra, Thuringia. It was deployed alongside two Panzer II from the school at Erfurt. It was destroyed by the 4th Armored Division (US) on April 1 1945. A photo taken on 11th July 1945 shows one destroyed Kugelblitz in Berlin. One was captured by the British. Whilst the fate of the other two is unkown, its know they were deployed to Berlin, and like the second one, were presumably destoryed. Unfortunately most of the sources are in German and Russian
I use a 250/9 and a 251/21 Drilling which are just bad news for anything of DV 8 down to soft skin for vehicles and any weapons teams or infantry in the open. For my infantry it is a mix bag of all sort of veterency from inexp on up to veteran. I usually take 8 man teams, tried that 5 to 6 number and they just do not last for me. I usually have a 8 man squad of Sturmpioniers with a flamethrower and GrB 39 and 2 SMG's and the rest rifles, a 8 man Pioneer with a flamethrower 2 SMG's and the rest rifles. A Volks Grenadier 8 man with 2 Stg 44's, a LMG and 2 Panzerfaust, a 5 man Osttruppen section, then my other boomerang unit my Panzer Zestorer truppen 7 men with 2 Panzerschreck teams a single Panzerfaust with SMG and NCO and last man with SMG's and AT Grnades. and for support a regular medium mortar with spotter and a veteran sniper all under a single regular 2nd Lt.. It's 999 points and 10 order dice, but the Pazer Zestorers and GrB-39 makes my opponent to stop and think how they are going to go about tackling things they have never seen before. Most think the GrB-39 is just some type of modified light mortar but that is just one half of what it is as it also is a weaker Panzerschreck with a +3 shape charge AT profile with the same range as a schreck, its a dual purpose weapon! Then that whole load up a transport and rush an objective becomes really dicey with the Sturms either in ambush or the objective is within rifle range. The Drilling is almost assured a hit with 6 shooting dice its a cheaper Wirblewind minus the DV 9 and 1 less light AC. with me and my German tournament list it is about how many firing dice I can get out of each unit. I only go to an event that allows a single reinforced platoon and around 12 order dice max. I got one at the end of Feb. that has some unique rules where you are only allowed 14 OD max that includes free units and just one flamethrower, heavy howitzer and multi launcher, you can take all three but it stops the spamming dead. I'm taking my tail end of the war Western Europe US force with an armored twin bazooka jeep and M-4 Crocodile for it. It's at a 1,000 points max.
Every tournament I've ever played limited vehicles with flamers to 1, and 12 order dice and 1 reinforced platoon. Otherwise the game sort of devolves into expensive hard hitting units with cheap filler just to pump up the order dice number and try to get a preferential activation sequence. Typical points are around 1250 - 1500. To me it just seems weird trying to cram in 20+ order dice in only 1100pts.
What are your thoughts on the Aufklärungs Gruppe (Western Desert page 93)? Five Recce jeeps (5 dice, 3 with mmg's and 2 with just a single rifle shot), all for the cost of 180pt (regular).
It is not actually that overpowered. The two with rifle shots are basically 'fodder'. So you are paying for 3 mobile MMGs in reality. And the separate order dice for each activation also means that those shots can be influenced before they all fire. Closer to jeep spam in version 1 which became a known problem, so I am not keen on that aspect (repeating mistakes from history, not learning from them) but if you've opened up selectors then you could also be facing other types of list with multiple HE or AT threats and their value is possibly less.
05:00 Why not take the SS Lieutenant inexperienced for 30p and than take one SS Squad that you have to take with him. HAve you seen Bo Mortensens Bolt Aciton Channel YET? 12:06 Howling Cow Brother!
May be too late to be asking questions but, why is your 2nd Lt carrying what appears to be three two handed weapons? Didn't think that was legal but I am new to this. It does appear you are chewing up points and it's not like he can fire all three in one turn.
Aesthetics of what is being held doesn't directly mean they have all those weapons available. HQs are often only able to take 1 weapon from either a pistol, a rifle or an SMG. Some forces also get to choose an assault rifle instead. But you only 'purchase' 1 and can only use that 1 in a game. Anything else is just about having a cool looking model. 👍
Some thoughts... Take SS 2nd Lts as inexperienced, this will give you points to make the transports regular, and to fix the AT rifle. No point in taking inexperienced of either as you'll just be hamstringing yourself. The Kugelblitz is a good idea, and a good counter to dakka stuarts and will shred trucks/APCs. The 250/9 is flavour of the month so a great choice, consider replacing one with a m/c combo to free up some points, for a sniper perhaps. Other options to build dice - drop the Carro Armato and replace with an inexperienced Panzerwwerfer 42, that will free more some points. Before you know it you'll have twenty dice :) Other stuff fill out the cars empty seats cost more, five man squads die easy, the ostruppen are a waste of points with the FAQd shirkers rule.
Can you have Ost Truppen with early panzer 3s ?? I would have said that those French tanks from the Budapest list aren't allowed unless you build a Budapest list. There weren't many of them and they were all in Budapest as part of a Police Unit.
It is possible that when using easy army we didn't check the specific unit entry to confirm if those units were allowed outside there campaign selectors. Off the top of my head they aren't restricted, but they could be. As per the FAQ though, if it says it can be used in generic platoons it is fair game :)
G'day Clarkey - thanks for replying in. This actually did quite well at our local Perth event. I never made it to the actual Open War tournament in the UK. I'm still a fan of many of these options. Drilling, 222, 6 Sturms in a Heavy field car have become staples, I'm still a fan of 8 men vets too with a few ars and a Faust. We've actually got a follow up video coming out next month, it's from guests from all over Perth and their ideal list for the Axis, what they played throughout the year and what they all recommend!
For competitive that’s the only way to go if you want to win. I’m historically accurate so I have a motorised platoon 3 trucks and 3 squads of 9 grenadiers with HQ and two aids. Historically accurate not at all competitive
Hey more of this please! This was a great video. Very good tempo love your thoughts and would love to here where you ended up months later. Cool list!
You can save 40pts using SS officers and ss pioneers instead. Also LMGs for 35pts may be better than an ATr for 30pts.
Yeah I switched from the Brits that I was enjoying to Germans when my friend said he was using British and wanted me to use Gerries. Wish I had soon. Basic army build are;
- Adhering to the rule of 6. If you have 6 guys with rifles then moving, long range and soft cover is a 6 to hit. If not moving but long range then still a size to hit. Statistically one 6 will occur which is enough for the pin. If 7+ is needed then usually any extra shots are wasted being paid for just to get the 6 followed by 6. So basically, units of 6 guys is usually what I adhere to.
- Panzerfausts mean that you can skip tanks and dedicated AT unit like AT guns to save points for other stuff
- 100% always buy 2 extra guys to go with your officer. The Germans don't get much/ any free stuff so a nice little combat unit with 3 x ARs is just too good to pass up. Also, and more importantly, it turns a near useless single model in to a small combat unit that supports your main units
- Avoid ARs in the main units and stick with SMGs
- always have an inexperienced mortar if possible
- always take all 6 infantry units of 6 or more guys each squad
- take a load of trucks and a motorbike for pins and mobile MGs for 54pts or less
- always go regular as it doesn't have the minus to your shooting, but use the officer to bolster their morale up to effectively vet status.
- always snap-too to overwhelm the portion of the field you're attacking and push them on to the back foot.
- take MGs on vehicles only, not in squads, unless doing a small vet unit with double LMGS to put pins out from your back line maybe. And even then not quite worth it....
- I barely use snipers, flamethrower, Panzerschreks or any expensive units that have one dice to shoot (like AT guns or tanks with their main gun
Usually I find I have enough that each squads can put a pin on other units, and with the fausts spread across all 6 units I've got the field covered for AT. Each squad is cheap enough to go down if needs be if shot at by a shooty expensive enemy unit, and easy enough to lose entirely without too much of a dent in the overall army performance. I usually have about 10+ pinning units per army (sub 800pts, ignoring the mortar) and if you focus and use your officer on your schwerpunkt he more than compensates for having only regular troops and snap-to pushes the opponent on to the back foot right where you're attacking (usually 😘)
Not so great if many buildings are involved (light on HE, and no flamers) but seem to be doing really well with this sort of build. I took out a friend's vet unit by getting 10 pins on it and he had another 2 units with 7 and 8 pins each. He had to give up in the end.
Hope that helps, it's just where I'm at in my German journey.... ❤🤓🤓
Wow! Lotsa gold tips here!
Many thanks! 😁
I play Germans exclusively. I really liked this video. I have a tournament this weekend using an infantry list. I will let you know how it goes and what my list looked like.
Keen to hear how you go and share the list when you can!
I came in second. I will post list when I can. I need to transcribe it from easy army.
@@OnPointCraps I would love to see your list, I will play in a tournament in Netherlands in september.
I mean, every tournament I have attended has been single platoon only.
Thanks Jacob, this could be the video to kick start me into starting a bolt action German list
Mate your Soviets are damn cool too we need to play again!
I sure hope the rumoured Bolt Action 3rd edition clears up a few things to make atrocities such as this list and other Rainbow and Unicorn lists obsolete... until the tryhards break the new system and meta whatever else becomes undercosted since they will have fixed criminally undercosted MMG and autocannon vehicle spam.
I hear what your saying, this is irregular for my standard games. Our local scene is typically one generic platoon, a sensible order dice cap and 1 flamer/1 MRL.
You sound like a person who counts every rivet on a model and won't allow it if there's one short.
Great video!
Hey ....great thought process. I'm of the same mind on a lot of this with my Germans. I've had great success with the 250/9's. I have two painted up and love their harassing power.
Nice to hear the 250/9e are doing work for you. Keen to collect em. Let me know how you go with your next german list.
@@WesternTabletop my list I'm working on is quite similar to yours... Weird... Except I was going to go for two kugelblitz, two howling cows
5 Kugelblitz saw combat. 3 were built, 2 were conversions of Panzer IVs. Their movements are actually well documented considering they are experimental tanks. On was destroyed in Spichra, Thuringia. It was deployed alongside two Panzer II from the school at Erfurt. It was destroyed by the 4th Armored Division (US) on April 1 1945. A photo taken on 11th July 1945 shows one destroyed Kugelblitz in Berlin. One was captured by the British. Whilst the fate of the other two is unkown, its know they were deployed to Berlin, and like the second one, were presumably destoryed.
Unfortunately most of the sources are in German and Russian
Excellent bit of info on the Kugelblitz thank you 😊
I use a 250/9 and a 251/21 Drilling which are just bad news for anything of DV 8 down to soft skin for vehicles and any weapons teams or infantry in the open. For my infantry it is a mix bag of all sort of veterency from inexp on up to veteran. I usually take 8 man teams, tried that 5 to 6 number and they just do not last for me. I usually have a 8 man squad of Sturmpioniers with a flamethrower and GrB 39 and 2 SMG's and the rest rifles, a 8 man Pioneer with a flamethrower 2 SMG's and the rest rifles. A Volks Grenadier 8 man with 2 Stg 44's, a LMG and 2 Panzerfaust, a 5 man Osttruppen section, then my other boomerang unit my Panzer Zestorer truppen 7 men with 2 Panzerschreck teams a single Panzerfaust with SMG and NCO and last man with SMG's and AT Grnades. and for support a regular medium mortar with spotter and a veteran sniper all under a single regular 2nd Lt..
It's 999 points and 10 order dice, but the Pazer Zestorers and GrB-39 makes my opponent to stop and think how they are going to go about tackling things they have never seen before. Most think the GrB-39 is just some type of modified light mortar but that is just one half of what it is as it also is a weaker Panzerschreck with a +3 shape charge AT profile with the same range as a schreck, its a dual purpose weapon! Then that whole load up a transport and rush an objective becomes really dicey with the Sturms either in ambush or the objective is within rifle range. The Drilling is almost assured a hit with 6 shooting dice its a cheaper Wirblewind minus the DV 9 and 1 less light AC. with me and my German tournament list it is about how many firing dice I can get out of each unit. I only go to an event that allows a single reinforced platoon and around 12 order dice max. I got one at the end of Feb. that has some unique rules where you are only allowed 14 OD max that includes free units and just one flamethrower, heavy howitzer and multi launcher, you can take all three but it stops the spamming dead. I'm taking my tail end of the war Western Europe US force with an armored twin bazooka jeep and M-4 Crocodile for it. It's at a 1,000 points max.
Every tournament I've ever played limited vehicles with flamers to 1, and 12 order dice and 1 reinforced platoon. Otherwise the game sort of devolves into expensive hard hitting units with cheap filler just to pump up the order dice number and try to get a preferential activation sequence. Typical points are around 1250 - 1500. To me it just seems weird trying to cram in 20+ order dice in only 1100pts.
What are your thoughts on the Aufklärungs Gruppe (Western Desert page 93)? Five Recce jeeps (5 dice, 3 with mmg's and 2 with just a single rifle shot), all for the cost of 180pt (regular).
Yet to try it for the model requirement always wanted to. Sounds tasty!
@@WesternTabletop thoughts, theory-wise? I'm thinking of taking a fully fledged out gruppe
It is not actually that overpowered. The two with rifle shots are basically 'fodder'. So you are paying for 3 mobile MMGs in reality. And the separate order dice for each activation also means that those shots can be influenced before they all fire. Closer to jeep spam in version 1 which became a known problem, so I am not keen on that aspect (repeating mistakes from history, not learning from them) but if you've opened up selectors then you could also be facing other types of list with multiple HE or AT threats and their value is possibly less.
Panzer 2s are decent for the price and they actually were a unit that was produced in numbers.
05:00 Why not take the SS Lieutenant inexperienced for 30p and than take one SS Squad that you have to take with him. HAve you seen Bo Mortensens Bolt Aciton Channel YET?
12:06 Howling Cow Brother!
Jacob would have to confirm his current stance on that trade (under pure competitive parameters it is a solid choice). We definitely know of Bo :)
May be too late to be asking questions but, why is your 2nd Lt carrying what appears to be three two handed weapons? Didn't think that was legal but I am new to this. It does appear you are chewing up points and it's not like he can fire all three in one turn.
Aesthetics of what is being held doesn't directly mean they have all those weapons available. HQs are often only able to take 1 weapon from either a pistol, a rifle or an SMG. Some forces also get to choose an assault rifle instead. But you only 'purchase' 1 and can only use that 1 in a game. Anything else is just about having a cool looking model. 👍
Very nice video…..how has the performance of this list during the tournament?
Some thoughts... Take SS 2nd Lts as inexperienced, this will give you points to make the transports regular, and to fix the AT rifle. No point in taking inexperienced of either as you'll just be hamstringing yourself. The Kugelblitz is a good idea, and a good counter to dakka stuarts and will shred trucks/APCs. The 250/9 is flavour of the month so a great choice, consider replacing one with a m/c combo to free up some points, for a sniper perhaps. Other options to build dice - drop the Carro Armato and replace with an inexperienced Panzerwwerfer 42, that will free more some points. Before you know it you'll have twenty dice :) Other stuff fill out the cars empty seats cost more, five man squads die easy, the ostruppen are a waste of points with the FAQd shirkers rule.
Can you have Ost Truppen with early panzer 3s ?? I would have said that those French tanks from the Budapest list aren't allowed unless you build a Budapest list. There weren't many of them and they were all in Budapest as part of a Police Unit.
It is possible that when using easy army we didn't check the specific unit entry to confirm if those units were allowed outside there campaign selectors. Off the top of my head they aren't restricted, but they could be. As per the FAQ though, if it says it can be used in generic platoons it is fair game :)
How did you get on?
G'day Clarkey - thanks for replying in. This actually did quite well at our local Perth event. I never made it to the actual Open War tournament in the UK. I'm still a fan of many of these options. Drilling, 222, 6 Sturms in a Heavy field car have become staples, I'm still a fan of 8 men vets too with a few ars and a Faust.
We've actually got a follow up video coming out next month, it's from guests from all over Perth and their ideal list for the Axis, what they played throughout the year and what they all recommend!
For competitive that’s the only way to go if you want to win. I’m historically accurate so I have a motorised platoon 3 trucks and 3 squads of 9 grenadiers with HQ and two aids. Historically accurate not at all competitive
Also Pak 36 is dirt cheep and effective if taken in numbers
Well when the British write the rules, they are very biased.