My favorite Lost Woods/stalfos head canon is that it’s not that you’ll get turned into a stalfos if you get lost in the woods, but that you’ll die, from starvation and exposure. And once your body rots away, the magic of the forest will reanimate your bones. Kind of like a Phantump in Pokémon.
@@MonsterMaze I was gonna say this. My read was "if you die here you'll become undead". It's not that the forest is using magic to kill you, but that it will cause you to be reborn. Similar force could make Stalfos in other places i guess?
I was thinking the same thing by the time the video got to the Forest Temple and Ganondorf's involvement. Being reminded of the fact that the Stalfos are reanimated corpses somehow jogged that train of thought in my brain, leading me to where we are now. Though I admit, before starting the video, I was taking the "turned into a Stalfos" thing too literally as well. Now my personal head canon has changed to "dying in the woods, then being revived as a monster."
In my interpretation, the fairy kid who taught Skull Kid the song was Link himself, since there's a little side quest in OoT that involves playing Saria's Song the a Skull Kid and getting something (a Heart Piece, I believe). That's why Link has the "same smell", because it's the same person. Awesome video, as always.
The fairy kid is not link, it's saria and the skull kid already knew the song that he had learned from saria (the skull kid tells link in OOT, "You know saria's song! Let's be friends!", the skull kid already knew the song when he met Link and heard him play the song, he recognized the song that Saria taught him and possibly other skull kids, and he just wanted link to play along with him, so Link didn't teach him the song, he already knew the song), the skull kid was basically telling link in MM that he (Link) smells just like saria who taught him the song in the woods, which makes sense since Link grew up around around Saria in the kokiri forest, of course he would smell like her and the other kokiri, the skull kids and even animals would pick up other people's scents on Link.
Skull Kid already knew Saria's Song though, and he calls it Saria's Song. And the "same smell" can be argued away by the fact that Link knew Saria. If Link had been the one, then Skullkid would've outright recognised him and directly said so.
@@mischarowe sarias song is the name of the song, and throughout majoras mask/oot you constantly learn the name of songs even tho nobody has taught you, the same goes for npcs
I think the Kokiri dying outside the forest was more of a riddle-type warning meant to protect them until the Deku Tree was sure that the world had become safe again. He would've been worried at least from Link's mother dropping him off and then dying herself.
I don’t think it was entirely a lie. After all with the civil war and the possibility of racism toward a different species due to the way things were between the different races at that point, it was actually quite likely the Kokiri would have been killed or enslaved if they left. Thats what I have concluded the reasoning for the belief being up to that point in time.
It seems like a given to me that the fairies are what make them able to go through the forest without becoming lost. In fact that sort of thing is probably why they had fairies in the first place.
@@workliferecognition7002 maybe the forest or the Deku tree sensed that the soul of the hero had entered thus, alluring his mother or sending a fairy to guide her.
There's a story talking about it where she runs up to The Deco train and she's already past the point of no return. But because link is the hero the magic of the forest and it take him. Plus he was entered into there against his whale because he's a child a baby@@genesisgonzalez1940
Hold up. That whole "you have the same smell" quote is referring to Link if I'm not mistaken. That's because Link can play a song for a lone skull kid that is also involved in the happy mask shop side quest. Which makes sense, because that kid got a skull mask out of it too; and would explain why he targeted the Happy Mask Salesman when he saw him in the woods. I'm more inclined to believe this, than Saria teaching a song to a random skull kid.
Yeah, pretty sure that he has the same scent as the kid from the forest is to say that he recognizes Link as Link. Why would a Hylian boy have the same smell as a Kokiri girl?
Yeah I dont think it was saria... she would constantly play that song and everyone in the lost woods could hear it, Link is the one who taught him jow to play it though
A minor flaw in your gossip stone reasoning is that Link's battle with King Dodongo hasn't happened, yet it is depicted on his house before you leave the forest. I would say that it is talking about Link. For one thing, you can't communicate with it until quite some time AFTER you leave the forest. This gives it plenty of time to pick up gossip about a fabled Kokiri.
In japanese Skull-Kids are called something like "Stalchildren" or "Stal-Kids" making it more likely that they are in fact transformed children. On the other hand "Stal" is commonly used for the word "Undead" making it no evidence for transformation through a curse. In the end I believe that SkullKids are simply Forest-Spirits who may be inspired by Japanese or even other countries folklores.
Well the undead enemies that pop up in Hyrule field at night as child Link are called Stalchildren in English, so I wonder why they decided to change up the names like that. Do you know what those enemies are called in Japanese?
I actually thought of my own theory about the Lost Woods. Saria's Song is the same as the Song of Healing backwards. And throughout the series, backwards songs have their own properties, like the Song of Time. Since the Song of Healing frees trapped spirits and tormented souls, perhaps Saria's Song is actually being heard in-world while in the Lost Woods, tormenting the souls of those who enter, and trapping them within the woods. Maybe it was a sort of method of guarding the Forest Temple. But yeah those are just my thoughts
You know, I recently read a theory about the Lost woods and why it seems to move about from game to game. The theory goes that every so many decade/centuries the Deku tree gets bored and decides to just pick up and move to a different spot. It's peripheral to what Monster Maze was talking about in the video and there's no real evidence one way or another, it's an interesting theory to think about and it could explain why all those man made structures exist in Lost woods. They're there because, at one point the woods weren't.
I mean, wherever he plopped down I'm sure a forest would sprout all around him. Since he seems to be missing from BOTW 2 trailer, maybe we will literally get to see him up and go
The reason why the Lost Woods moves from game to game, in my opinion, is the same reason as to why all other locations and landmarks move between games. And this reason, according to my headcanon, is as follows: sometime between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap (or whatever other future game might be released that's the second game in the timeline), for whatever reason (perhaps to hinder Demise's agents from getting a know of the land and thus finding a way into the Sacred Realm or destroying the Master Sword), a Link or Zelda wished for the geography of Hyrule to be unstable, magically changing at irregular intervals of time. Yes, it's sort of a cop out, but it's honestly the best explanation I've ever heard of. Geological processes happen over millions of years, way too slow to significantly change the geography of Hyrule between games, especially between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, which are said to not be too long after each other, perhaps not more than a century or so apart.
Seeing as Zelda is heavily based on Peter Pan, my guess with the Kokiri Forest & Lost Woods was always that it was like the Lost Boys and Neverland. If they leave the Forest, they actually grow up.
@@michaelwerkov3438 He was a big influence on the first title, 'The Legend of Zelda'. It's why Link looks the way he does, with the pointy green hat and green clothes.
@@michaelwerkov3438 Miyamoto and Nintendo in general have stated it many times over the years. You can quickly find sources for that if you look online. The Kokiri and Lost Woods were also based on Peter Pan and the Lost Boys. Peter Pan (especially the Disney adaptation, which Miyamoto grew up on and based the references on) is often spoken of as an allegory about childhood transitioning into adulthood. It’s why Captain Hook and Wendy’s father are almost always played by the same actor; Peter is the childhood abandon and imagination of youth, and Captain Hook is the adult trying to suppress that vibrancy and force the children to grow up. Link’s story in OoT is a tragic tale of a young boy’s youth being stolen from him as he’s brought into adulthood. He goes on a wild adventure to save the world, and is rewarded with the end of his childhood, forever. Zelda attempted to give him some semblance of childhood by sending him back to a past before he got embroiled in the events of the game, but by that point, he was no longer a child anymore. For Wendy, the Nursery is Neverland/The Lost Woods. For Link, Kokiri Forest is the Nursery/Neverland. Once they leave, they will never be able to stop that flow of time. Once they leave, they will be forced to grow up. So yeah, it’s not even like an Easter egg at this point. It is flat out based off of it.
@@wokeupinapanic yeah, i mean it makes plenty of sense. i just am surprised for how much zelda stuff ive read (i got OoT on literal pre-order), i hadnt ever heard that made explicit
@@Elementianhero22 The epic Zelda series is not based on the Peter Pan stupid childish fairy tale. Link grow up and become an adult. Only like 2 out of the 20 games have pirates in them. Link doesn't kidnap some kids to take them to some fucking neverland nor does he have any problem or issue with growing up. And the reason Link wear a green hat and green clothes and has pointy ears is because he along with the other Hylians are heavily based on celtic elves like Legolas from LOTR. Elves wear a lot of green and brown like Link who is wearing a green hat, green clothes, brown boots and a brown scabbard. The Kokiri also wear green because they're forest spirits and as such they are close to nature just like the elf-like Hylians. This whole bullshit about "zelda being heavily based on Peter Pan" or comparing the epic Zelda series to a childish fairytale about a boy with major issues who refuse to grow up and who kidnap kids to take them away from their families and brainwash them into believing that growing up is something they should be scared of is simply laughable (by the way, in the original novel it says that after the kids went to neverland, if Peter Pan caught them in the act of growing up, and he would regularly measure them, if they were caught growing up, Peter Pan would kill them, in both book and play, Peter murders pirates easily, without a care, in the book we learn that Peter kills the Lost Boys too, either to “thin the herd” or because they are growing up, which is against the rules, he also periodically alters the Lost Boys’ bodies so that they can fit through the tree-holes that lead to their underground lair - and because he cannot tell the difference between pretend and real life, he will sometimes give them pretend meals and refuse to believe that they are still hungry so he's starving them, fun fact the reason why the Crocodile is always trying to eat Captain Hook is because captain hook was one of the lost boys that grew up so to punish James peter pan cut off his hand and the crocodile enjoyed it and wanted more and that's why James Hook want revenge against the psychopath child who kidnapped him, took him away from his family then mutilated him when he started growing up. Peter Pan want to kill people who grow up because he doesn't want to find out the truth which is that James Hook and his "pirates" are victims and Peter Pan is the actual villain in the story. Yup parents allow their kids to read stories about a psychopath boy who murder or mutilate kids for the so-called "crime of growing up" or to "thin the herd" because there's "too many kids" and who refuse to grow up and is disconnected from reality because he can't tell the difference between pretend and real like since he has major mental issues. Isn't that nice that parents are so dumb that they don't bother to research what their children read and then they let their kids read such disturbing and sinister stories that are really not kid friendly? Did I mention that in the Disney cartoon, Wendy become a victim of child labor at the hands of native americans who enslave white children and is told by a native american woman to shut up and wash the floor on all four like a good little white squaw, and Peter Pan want to be worshipped by the native american and called The Great White Father, so yeah put a white tribe and a native american tribe on either side of the island and watch the evolution of mutual racism. The whole Peter Pan story is so messed up and as you grow up and become an adult and leave your childish naivety behind, you can clearly see just how villainous Peter Pan really is).
Oh wow, there's a name I haven't heard in a while. RIP Vortexxy, her vidos were so good. She would have been one of the best Zeldatubers today, no doubt.
They sure were! I sometimes wonder what her videos would've looked like now, had she still been around. The standards for Zelda videos have generally become higher when it comes to production, as well as of course the advancements in technology. But unfortunately... we will never know :(
My personal interpretation of some of these things: 1- Stalfos are adults who die (or "are lost") in the forest, and the examples we have just happen to be soldiers because of the recent war. But they can also be created by other magical means as is obvious by their presence in other locations. 2- the reason we don't encounter them in the lost woods outside the temple is because unless they had a specific direction at their time of death, they just wander aimlessly (and let's not forget that the lost woods are huge and we don't get to explore even a fraction of them in the game) 3- skull kids are kokiri who have died, or somehow moved on to another stage of life, and that's why kokiri and skull kids get along so well. Again, this is just how I interpret these subjects. I'm very interested to hear what others think though
As a kid it always made sense to me that the Deku Tree fortified the woods for OoT with some magic. Considering Ganon came and ended up cursing him, he wanted to try and protect the Kokiri since he probably honestly had no idea when he'd die.
The Forest Temple and the passages to the Goron City and Zora's Domain were to benefit the forest - the paths would enable them to travel without meeting danger and the Temple is for the Sage. So I reckon the Hylians/Hyrulians doing the actual building would have been provided with Kokiri guides to prevent them getting lost.
I always assumed that the Kokiri didn't obtain a fairy right away. They were assigned one in time, mainly because it seemed like the biggest deal ever when Link finally got Navi. Even Navi tells Link she's his fairy now in game, and since she is his protector and guardian, he gets through the Lost Woods A-OK, not being a Kokiri himself. In the manga, oml, what a big deal that was for him since Mido and his groupies would bully Link for being without one. So to me, I assumed the Skull Children were Kokiris pre-fairy that wandered into the woods, got lost and remained friends with the other Kokiris. Even adult Link gets attacked by these kids when he's an adult, because they don't recognize him as a Kokiri. But again... they could just be child spirits who seem to love playing with kids and dislike adults. I still think a fairy is a main reason why the curse doesn't work at times for folks. Because there are fairy fountains in Lost Woods near the Forest Temple, maybe that well was kept there so the Hylians that once used that temple could utilize the fairies when they found out about the curse? Not sure, but it's always fun to have videos like these that make you think hard about it. XD Awesome video as always. Really loved watching it!
I always figured that the entire set of phenomena surrounding the forest area was just a byproduct of fairy magic running rampant, since at least in mythology fairies are notable for ranging from simply being mischievous to downright misanthropic, and having a fairy with you like a kokiri would provide you at least nullification of the monster curse while wandering the woods
An easy way to fill a hole in your speculation about the missing kokiri is the fact that it was the ‘original’ Fado. The Great Deku Tree originally gave birth to Fado, a boy, and he was called to become the Sage of Wind. To do this he had to travel north and out of forest the Great Deku Tree protected. He then created Fado, the girl, to replace his lost child and told the kokiri that any who leave the forest die since Fado, the boy, never returned. Also, since the kokiri are the Children of the Forest, they would be immune to the forest’s curse since they carry the blessing of the Great Deku Tree. It is also easy to believe that when the Great Deku Tree first encountered Link he gave him this blessing as well so that the curse would not affect him as he aged.
Great video! I especially like the out of bounds angles. We’ve played OoT so many times, but seeing from those angles makes it feel fresh and new. Those small details are what make your videos great!
I did always find it weird how many childeren would've gotten lost in order to get so many skullkids but it just being a myth could make sense since the Lost Woods in Ocarina of Time were still pretty new to Hylians.
i always loved the lost woods. the lost woods in lttp terrified me as a kid and the lost woods in oot feel so homely and cozy and mystical. hearing the song at the beginning sends me back to being like six, trying and failing at playing lttp. something about old game art styles make it so much creepier lol
I think if the kokiri leave the forest they simply become adults. If they stay in the forest they will stay as childs. It was inspired by Peter's pan book. Even the dialogues in game with the fairies are really closed to the book itself :) I also think the Deku Tree made that curse to protect the forest and the childs from the war.
That theory is unlikely given that the Kokiri aren't actually Hylian but Forest Spirits based off of Kodama. According to Eiji Aonuma, the Kokiri are born as children and die of old age as children regardless if they leave the forest or not. They actual true form is the Korok.
@@enforcerridley158 The true form of the Kokiri has never made sense to be Koroks. Its specifically stated to be something they become later on in Wind Waker. Nothing anywhere ever suggests Koroks are their "true form", just a new form the Great Deku Tree gave them. Them originally being hylian children "adopted" by the Great Deku Tree, and eventually becoming something else, absolutely is a possibility. Link simply isn't given that opportunity because he had a greater role to play.
PFFF!!! Im just saying this... Lost Woods its defintely my favorite place in Zelda, the athmosphere, music, puzzles and of course the mystic about the forest temple. Simply the epiphany of fantasy and adventure. I hope to see a greater experience of Lost Woods in BOTW2 like OOT or better... take notes Nintendo
It made me so happy to hear you mention Vortexxy. Her videos and theories are of the highest quality and should be seen by every Zelda theory fan. Sadly, she was taken too soon from us, even before BOTW. Her videos live on as a memorial to one of the brightest minds of this community. P. S. Her Downfall Timeline theory video is the best of the genre. I’ve never accepted something as canon more quickly
Maybe the one Kokiri that left was the Hyrulian version of Tingle. Or maybe the Happy Mask Salesman, who manages to wander the Lost Woods without problems, though I still prefer my theory that he's actually either the previous Gerudo King or the one Gerudo male for the Terminian Gerudo.
Insflare1, That theory is ridiculous and a baseless claim. Anyone with half a brain knows by now that the Happy Mask salesman is the last of the Ancient Ones (there's a lot of evidence for it), a very ancient tribe of immortal magic wielding beings with slit pupiled red glowing eyes that sealed Majora's Mask in darkness. The english translation says that the tribe vanished or disappeared, but that's because the stupid translators wanted to be politically correct and CENSOR the truth. The Japanese version says that the tribe was destroyed (or genocided), it uses the Japanese word for destroyed, not vanished or disappeared. The happy mask salesman is the last survivor of his people (king igos du ikana of the ancient kingdom of ikana was still around during the events of majora's mask but he was an undead creature because of the curse and not really among the living anymore so the happy mask salesman is the only member of the tribe who is still alive) and the happy mask salesman alone was standing in between majora and the world of termina after his people was gone and that's why he went to link for help because there wasn't much he could do to stop majora on his own (also let me tell you, the place where the ancient ones sealed majora's mask was in the pocket dimension which is the boss chamber in stone tower temple where link fight the twinmold boss, there are pillars with majora's mask engraved all over them, and the happy mask salesman said the ancient ones sealed majora's mask in darkness and igos du ikana talked about "the wind of darkness" in reference to stone tower temple). hat's also why the HHS know about the Ancient Ones and knew how important the recovery of the ocarina was to defeat majora and knew the song of healing. The HHS is probably several thousands of years old (just like Tolkien's immortal elves, he can't die of old age but he can be killed, he's just good at surviving disasters and he has been through a lot of things and has suffered way too much already and has experienced more than his fair share of loneliness) and probably saw his family and tribe being massacred while he hid in the bushes crying and then went into hiding for a while before he tried to recover the mask to contain and/or defeat majora and when he realized he couldn't do it on his own he went to link for help. The ancient kingdom of ikana was home to the ancient ones and igos du ikana was their king (the undead king you see in the game is the king of the ancient ones who was turned into an undead creature by the curse on the land of ikana), he wear the symbol/emblem of the stone tower temple on his clothes and the stone tower symbol/emblem is also seen in the ancient castle of ikana, as well as the mirror shield which looks like one of the masks that the happy mask salesman carry around (it has the same face), king igos du ikana also talked about "the light of justice" which are the light arrows (there's a note with the light arrows in stone tower temple that calls them "the light of justice" and king igos basically said to shine "the light of justice" on stone tower temple's emblem), yes the light arrows, created by the ancient ones, the happy mask salesman's people, to combat and defeat "the wind of dakness" escaping from stone tower temple. Some of the dissenting ancient ones probably placed the "light of justice" inside stone tower temple after one of their people prophesied that at some point in the future a hero from a parallel universe would come along and save Termina and break the curse on the ikana kingdom, the curse that was put on ikana when the tribe was wiped out to get back against igos for following demise. The stone tower temple was built by the ancient ones when their king igos commanded them to build it to worship and bow down to the demon demise with whom they would fight in the demon wars, most of the ancient ones didn't want to build the tower or follow demise but the royals forced them to, then the followers of the fierce deity kill them all (the fierce deity must have disaprove of his followers committing mass genocide and must have been disappointed by his followers' actions) except for the happy mask salesman who was the sole survivor. Feeling guilty for the awful catastrophe he brought upon his people, igos du ikana entrust link, the hero from a parallel universe, with the elegy of emptiness and the "light of justice" and departed for the afterlife. I put all the pieces of the puzzle back together with the help of a username SwoodMaxProductions on AO3, I wrote a story in three parts and added a few companion pieces too: archiveofourown.org/series/1500296 Michelle.
@@Wealllovekaira Honestly,“the stupid translators wanted to be politically correct”, because it’s not like destroyed and vanished are pretty similar given the context and adds more mystery if anything. Why do people have to make everything political smh.
The story that Hylians who get lost in the Woods become Stalfos or Skull Kids could be another noble lie from the Great Deku Tree, this time to deter Hylians from trespassing on the sacred ground of the forest.
Something that's mysterious to me is that while there's a skull kid in the forest in Twilight Princess, the Kokiri, at least as far as I can remember, make no direct appearance. You cannot find them or their dwellings. I don't remember them getting mentioned anywhere either, even as a rumor or myth. It's almost as if something wiped them out long ago, and they've long since gone forgotten. Or perhaps, they do still exist, but are hidden away so well that neither the Hero of Twilight nor any other denizens of Hyrule can find them?
Depending on how serious you take the encyclopedia, kokiris will just age after leaving the forest. Amazing video. I love seeing the zelda community flourish
I know this isn't the case because they probably didn't have the story of the Kokiri and Koroks fully planned out yet, but I like to think the one Kokiri the stone says left is Fado, the Wind sage from The Wind Waker. I feel like it also makes losing immortality possible, because in order for his ghost to appear in The Wind Waker, he would've had to have died at some point before the Kokiri even evolved into the Koroks.
Its flat out stated in Wind Waker the Sages of Wind and Earth were killed by Ganondorf. Which is weird, because they were in the temples, right? So when exactly were they killed? The King implies he doesn't know when (meaning it couldn't have happened before he became a spirit), so I think the game is hinting they were killed fairly recently after Ganondorf's seal was broken, meaning they've been alive all this time? But its also weird because somehow the King is still alive, he has a physical body, but he's also a spirit at the same time?
It honestly hurts knowing that Vortexxy is gone. I remember watching her theories back in 2015 and loving them. I rediscover her channel just months ago, I see a video speculating BotW before it released, then I read the comment section mourning her loss that I didn't know about this whole time? Like damn man :( I had that same feeling when I found out Issac Hayes died. RIP
That's pretty much what happened to me - I came across her in 2015 as well, my second last year of high school when I was struggling with several traumatic/tragic events... I found out what happened to her in early 2018, and even now it's a solemn topic for me 💙
I think Zeltik mentioned that in a video. The game doesn't mention where she was running from or even if she was running specifically to the Great Deku tree, I don't think, just that she found it and left Link in it's care. Honestly considering how close the forest temple is it makes more sense for her to have come from there then say Hyrule castletown.
I never considered that the line about Link having the same smell as the fairy kid who taught Skull Kid a song was about Saria. I always assumed he was talking about Link himself doing that in Ocarina of Time
@@mokarokas-1727 no, he had heard the song, but doesn't know it until you teach him how to play it. You also give him a mask as part of the mask side quest. It's much stronger to consider the one who taught the kid a song as Link, because of both these interactions with the same NPC.
@@kaitoudark1 - I went to check, and what he says does imply he knows Saria and learned the song from her: "You know Saria's Song! We should be friends! Here, take this!" (heartpiece)
@@mokarokas-1727 that's not an implication of knowing it. Grammatically, it states he knows of it. Analogy: I know of and have heard Koji Kondo's music in Zelda, but I don't know how to play it, so I can't genuinely say I know the title theme song for Ocarina of Time song.
Mido might be a good example of how a kokiri can get by just fine in the Lost Woods. He's guarding the log path on the way to the secret meadow when you return as an adult. How long was he standing there? Who knows. I'd also like to think that perhaps Link, being a Hylian and subject to the curse, does indeed become a monster of sorts in the form of the Hero's Shade; and since Navi leaves him eventually, he likely succumbs to it. Loved your vid, thank you bunches
01:19 Can you cite this legend? Fado, the only character in the game that actually says anything about the forest being cursed, only states that anyone who enters the forest, who are not from the forest, will turn into a Stalfos... The potion lady in Kakariko Village gives a vague clue, as well, by stating that she can't cure a monster...
Head Cannon: I wonder if the lost woods / forest temple is designed to keep lost spirits there? Saria’s song is a song that soothes troubled spirits nit to mention the song of healing is Saria’s song backwards. Also, forest Temple has a lot of ghosts and phantoms in it. Perhaps the forest sages job is to lead lost souls to the temple and out of Hyrule.
Also, perhaps our entrance to the forest temple is the back of the original building? It is at the far edge of the forest so maybe the original entrance would not be in the forest only the backyard leading into a hedge maze like we see in oot. Perhaps this building was a museum or school that was attacked during the civil war.
I'd say it's quite simple, you only become a Stalfos if you die in the woods. It is called the Lost Woods after all, people get lost and end up dying in them because they didn't get out. Bones left behind in a magical woods, it's probably getting right back up eventually. Those who entered and didn't die won't be effected if they managed to get out. Makes sense to me at least
Mini theory of why lost man is not a stalfoses (idk spelling) is either he IS the kokori that left from the gossip Stone ORRR he simply did not take a path that ends up him being lost as in the game going into that area you don't get reset or "lost"
I was once convinced that Termina, from Majora’s Mask, was located somewhere deep within the Lost Woods. That if you wandered deep enough into the forest, it would eventually be like exiting Hyrule altogether. And that it was the first place Link would go to search for Navi, after she left, due to how close it was to Korkiri Forest. It was the closest place from where she and he first met. And it was the first encounter he ended up having with Skull Kid. So why would he re-encounter Skull Kid outside of the forest? The Lost Woods has many unexplainable roots and incomprehensible pathways. It has many secrets. Perhaps the existence of Termina is one of them.
If you think about the history of the shadow temple a couple things come to mind 1. The royal family could have created stalfos to begin with. Actual soldiers before death or otherwise. 2. Because of this possibility, they could have at some point made a macabre curse towards their own people and those who dared to get lost suffered the fate they chose thinking it just a fairy tale Or Fairy magic replicated the stalfos transmogrification as protection.
maybe the kokiri don't view being a skull kid as a bad thing; which is why they still play around the lost woods or further without fear or being limited by the deku tree- because it's not bad if they become skull kids or not because they'll all still be friends with each other; living under the deku trees protection. Maybe it could even be viewed as a better fate in some ways for the kids that might not be blessed with a fairy companion as a kokiri (because Link was made to be a complete outcast by a lot of them for being fairyless before anyome was aware he wasn't a kokiri.) So maybe to the Kokiri and the Deku tree getting lost and transforming is the general path that most kids who don't truly fit in with the fairy Kokiri tribe in the village intentionally go down in ordee to become something that is more acceptable for their forest society.
I have a theory that time works differently between Hyrule and Termina. If Skull Kids are immortal, it makes sense that he knew the Giants and has been around in Termina a long time. When people cross from Hyrule into Termina, they drop into a random point in time. When Link arrived, hundreds of years already passed since Skull Kid showed up. So tldr: Termina works on Narnia time.
i love how when you make a video about something you go into so much detail about every little possibility. it's enormously fun. you really do your homework.
Maybe it's like a vampire thing. If the Hylian or other person in question is invited in and guided by a Kokiri (like entering with permission and stuff) they live and if not the get lost, die of exposure and starvation and turn into Stalfos/Skull Kids.
I assume the death the Kokiri face when leaving the forest is a psychological one. They are protected in a bubble of eternal childhood and they will never be the same if they would encounter the war that took place in Hyrule a few years ago. That would also explain why it is okay to meet on Lon-Lon Ranch in the credit scene as there is no evil stuff at the moment. This is exactly how folklore works.
I always felt like he tricks Link into giving away his location because he already knew of the secret passage in the Lost Woods into Termina and wanted to let his family know that he is OK but isn't wanting them to search for him... Granny mentioned something about the woods but that is probably in the next video
I really appreciate this video because a large portion of the Zelda theory community always gets the lore regarding the Lost Woods very very wrong. The misinformation dates as far back as the birth of the awful Majora’s Mask “Grief Theory” and “Link is Dead” theory. From there, even the more experienced and talented theorists make such backwards claims with so much confidence. It endlessly bothered me for so long, so I’m glad this turned out so well.
@@SunbearSmoke The grief theory states that every major location in MM represents a single stage of the Five Stages of Grief (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance). The devs themselves have said how the theory is wrong, for the same reason I think it’s dumb. The problem with this “theory” is that it grossly oversimplifies the story and makes huge leaps in logic or focuses on one miniscule aspect of any given area to make the rather piss poor analysis work.
15:27 never see Stalfos outside the Forest Temple? Excuse me? If that were the case, then what are those Skeletons that Link fights in the Shadow Temple, the Spirit Temple, and Ganondorf’s Castle? True we don’t see Stalfos outside the Dungeons, only Stalchilds, but that’s a different theory.
It’s probably worth mentioning that the moment you leave the area when Fido appears is if you go back after giving her the Odd Potion. She’s immediately gone and never to be seen again when you’re adult Link. And not to mention that the Skull Kids only appear after doing that. And it’s kind of creepy that you go back in the area and the only thing you find that’s alive is a Skull Kid. It’s strange that Fido is never to be seen again after that. You could just say it was just a coincidence. But the fact that you never see her again is really questionable.
Just also wanted to say that it has been a joy since I found your channel a week ago, I have binged most of your content and you have given fresh life and new perspectives to games I experienced as a child and it is wonderful. Keep up the great work.
Yeah, Don is for sure my favorite Zeldatuber. Or at the very least, he's tied with Zeltik. His theories are always incredibly well-researched, thoroughly-presented, and supported by evidence. That's why he's the only theorist whose channel I pay to be a member of
As I was watching the video I had a thought, in Twilight Princess you meet a Skullkid who will lead you to the Master Sword. Well we know that the TP Skullkid is heavily implied to be the same one from Majora’s Mask, what if the Hero Of Time is buried in the Lost Woods and the Skullkid is both watching over his friend’s grave and is acting as a guide for the next Hero to the Master Sword?
Slightly off topic, I like how the kokiri forest has a very neat piece of lore behind it. This isn't exactly rare, but it certainly isn't widely recognized. The GDT refers to the Kokiri forest as the source of all life while talking with Navi before she became Link's fairy. It isn't a vital piece of lore, but still neat. Good video, you don't see people look back on this fascinating area and its curse too often. And you repeatedly have been one of the few people to put actual doubt on the contents of the books at all, even if you still use them as evidence.
Yes, there is some great lore behind it! I love the Kokiri forest ^^ Still one of my favourite starting locations in any zelda game! Oh and regarding the books... yeah I think it's kinda up to us sometimes to cherrypick them. There is some amazing stuff in there, but they will always have flaws
Yeeeeessssss the forest admittedly does a even better job than clocktown at teaching the basics of the game, not to mention that its location ties it into the rest of the series well. And at least they had good concept art. Those books are also good for starting out too, they aren't perfect but they do give a solid understanding of Zelda's history.
I like the idea of kokiri forest being the place where the first forms of life were created by Farore. In the Golden Goddesses cutscene, Farore is seen in a place that looks VERY similar to the lost woods, and it's likely one and the same.
A little add-on, the little balls of light that are seen constantly floating in the air in the forest also first appear when the Deku Tree talks about how Farore, "with her rich soul, created all life forms who would uphold the law." So you could say that these little spirits are possibly the oldest living things in all of Hyrule's universe.
My first lost woods was ALBW’s lost woods. I entered early without the pendant of wisdom from the House of Gales. I found the road to the master sword’s resting place where I kept getting lost on the first room before seeing any poes. When I came back with the pendant the last set of poes was my bane. You have to follow three poes and then take the route they didn’t take. If you follow them, you get lost. If you don’t, you get to the master sword.
It's been a long time since I've played OoT. Just how are the Kokiri immortal? Do they legit never die, go through a cycle of death and rebirth like we see the Great Deku Tree do, do they still die of old age but during their whole life they look eternally young like a child so people think they're "immortal", or something else, or a combination?
I've always thought they were immortal, but grew in all other ways not physical. That wouldn't necessarily mean they're ancient adults in childrens' bodies in the common way most folks might think it, however. Since they are immortal and being physically eternal children, there would be no need for reproduction, puberty, or the messy business of getting old either. Their growing into mental and emotional maturity would be different, far more difficult to understand than what we're used to. Mido, for example, is probably quite old but he acts precisely like how he looks, and his affection for Saria reflects that. Saria seems to be far older than the rest of them, but she ends up being a Sage and has likely heard the spirits' call for long enough for it to affect her view of the world and her place in it. Link is a Hylian with a significantly shorter lifespan, so it would be in his nature to look ahead to "when I grow up" even when he thought he was a Kokiri. I'm fairly certain I was going somewhere with that, but I'm tired and forgot it lol.
its neber really explained as far as i know, but it seems the deku tree births them, then they grow to idk they look about 8-10? then they just stop aging
In regards to the man-made structures in the Woods, I theorize that the Lost Woods isn't so much a physical place as it is a metaphysical one. That any sufficiently-dense forest can become "connected" to this realm that the Deku Tree (a forest deity) resides in. This is why it moves around so much, and why sometimes you find structures inside of them that really shouldn't be in a deep forest; the places became abandoned and were swallowed by the forest as nature reclaimed the area, and the forest became connected to the Deku Tree's domain.
In my headcanon, OOT!Link HAS BECOME a Stal, which is why his Shade takes this form as seen in Twilight Princess! But I'd also bet that he lived to a ripe old age as a hero nobody remembers. After all, his adventures are wiped from history. His life seven years after Ocarina Of Time and Majora's Mask are completely different than in the Adult Timeline. In my mind he became a farmer in Ordon Woods. When he dies, he's itching to be remembered for something and so he Stals around and met TP!Link.
I wonder though: if Link's body became a Stalfos, but his soul became a Poe because of his lingering regret that no one remembers his heroic deeds, why does his Poe form resemble a Stalfos skeleton?
@@v1de0gamr23 maybe his poe form is the golden wolf form he has when TP link finds him and then shows himself in stal form so it can be easier to teach TP link fighting techniques. Maybe? Idk
@@TheNyleve16 I like that theory 👍. My possible fan theory is that the Hero's Shade is a Poe that resembles a Stalfos skeleton because the same lingering regrets that turned Link into a Poe also led to his death. I theorize that maybe Link, tired of not being remembered for his heroic deeds, went to the Lost Woods to try and find the way back to Termina, where he would be remembered. Unfortunately, he would get lost in the Lost Woods, and die without finding it. But that's just a theory 👍
My guess for the Kokiri being unable to leave the woods is more akin to how dryads can't be away from their home tree for too long or they will wither and die. Leaving for a bit to celebrate with the rest of Hyrule that a great evil has been defeated is not going to have any lasting effect on them, if any at all, but going on a long adventure such as Link's might result in them losing their lives just from time itself. Saria is obviously one of the cases where she goes to a special place under special circumstances, if she is technically leaving at all, that prevents any negative effects.
8:07 Saria didn’t teach him her song, LINK taught him that song. Majora’s Mask presumes that the player completed all the side quests in Ocarina of Time. As child link you go into the meadow, first left from the entrance, stand on the stump and skull kid appears. Play Saria’s Song, he will like you and give you a piece of heart ❤️ put on the skull mask and he will buy it, albeit underpriced. When you return as an adult, the skull kid will shoot a blow gun at you because he doesn’t recognize you, none of the Kokiri do except the Sage of the Forest, Saria; all because you grew up.
I have been working on a big Zelda breath of the wild theory. It basically connects Ganondorf's mummy style body from the botw 2 trailer, the eight heroines (kind of), dlc items such as Majora's mask, and how the Sheikah power their technology; and also why/how it may be running out. My conclusion is that this is the Sheikah's biggest role in the series thus far. But there are still quite of few of loose ends that I am a bit stumped on to tie the hole thing together. I was wondering if anyone in the Zelda theory community could help me, I would much appreciate it.
I think the key phrase is "getting lost" in the lost woods. if you're just going through the lost woods l, know where you're going, you're comfortably in the lost woods, no curse. but lost? possible curse
In the n64 version if after you talk to the girl who talks about stalfos you go to the next area where the deku salesman and pillars are, a stalfos pops out and attacks you. I always assumed it was him. It only occurs after he disappears.
I always interpreted the MM Skullkid's statement about learning a song to mean he is specifically the skullkid you trade the mask to in OoT since there's a musical puzzle with him too.
I have wondered about the logs in the lost woods being portal like gateways to other forests I have also been thinking about how kokiri/koroks, Poes and someone who knows a bit of magic affect the lost woods
I have read probably a few too many fanfiction stories, but one thing that does tend to crop up in some of them is that the Kokiri are more like changelings and that they rely on their fairy for sustenance or types of fae food (basically fruits, berries, nuts and vegetables that have a heavy magic content), as I said this is from fanfiction stories so there is no canon validity and is purely headcanon.
Ah the vortexygaming shout out, so bittersweet. She is missed, such a brilliant theorist right up there with zeltik, nbc, and you! Great video, can’t wait to see part 2!
4:22 This is explained: monsters. That’s why Link is required to get a sword and shield before leaving. It’s not part of the “curse”; it’s a safety measure. Once Ganondorf is defeated, it’s safe for them to wonder. The Deku Tree was just being a protective papa.
I absolutely love the free cam shots you used for this video. The scenes are beautiful, per Nintendo's incredible work, and the framing is amazing on your part
Personally, I think the bit about them 'dying' if they go outside the forest was not a declartion that the act of doing so would cause death, but that they were protected inside the forest, and to leave it would be giving up that protection in a world filled with danger and strife. It could also be something like that forest gives them longetivity, and to leave it entirely means they would eventually grow old and die, though my money is more on the warning above.
Personally I think that the curse they refer to in OOT is the protection of the Great Deku tree. It would explain why Link was able to exist there without turning into a skull kid or a stalfos, the Deku Tree chose to take him in, so he would have put his protection on him, and it explains why it didn't really show up in other games. OOT is the only game, if I'm not mistaken, where the Kokiri are children and not koroks. The children I think would have been at a greater risk from outsiders (capture, slavery, etc...) than the small little woodland imps that are the koroks, so to me that would also explain why "the curse" doesn't show up in other games.
I think I remember the explanation for Link being able to traverse the lost woods was because he was given a fairy, and the kokiri having fairies is what lets them survive traveling around the lost woods, without a fairy, the lost woods’ magic takes hold of you
I find something strange about every lost woods song, it seems that in other Zelda games the lost woods song sounds lost and strange, but for ocerina of time the music sounds... Happy.
The forest temple was likely a military base that was destroyed during the Hyrulean civil war and also served as a summer house or resort for the royal family. This would also explain why there are entrances to Zora’s domain and Goron city. Also, the entrance to the Forest temple that we use looks more like a back or side entrance rather than the main entrance. There’s probably another way to enter from Hyrule field.
Stal simply means skelaton, and fos means warrior/fighter. A stalfos means skelatal fighter The carpenter's son could simply be an adult Stalfos without a weapon, who maybe wandered towards other undead (Forest Temple)
I've always taken it to be more like a starvation sort of thing. The Kokiri draw some vital nutrient from the forest itself and outside of it they grow sickly after a while then die if they don't get back to the forest in time. Even as a kid I saw no issues with short term travel from the forest, such as to the ranch for a party. What if the kokiri that left and didn't die just went to termina and changed his name to Tingle
This could explain why Encyclopedia identifies the Hero's Shade as a Stalfos, besides the visual similarities-he has regrets from not being able to pass on his swordsmanship to his children, having died before he could, and lingered in the world of the living in the form of a wolf, and a skeletal spirit in possibly the spirit world where he trains Link. Only by passing on those skills to his descendant, the Hero of Twilight, could he finally move on.
I always figured the transformation was related to someone perishing in the woods, either from their body giving out or being attacked by the other monsters like the Wolfos, skulltulas, and so on. Because nobody has ever observed the change, it just became assumed that simply entering the woods would cause it, or that the conclusion came about from hearsay mixing up/changing the details, as what tends to happens with gossip. Thus, it's possible that a lot of the myths are all true to some extent, but their true specifics have been lost to time. Which would fit with the fairy tale nature of the series, leaving details with an equal amount of truth, lie, and misunderstanding that speculation will always remain.
I have a pretty strong theory myself. The Lost Woods are only cursed while the Great Deku Tree is alive. He created the curse in order to stop people from getting in, and his children from getting out. Ganondorf does curse the Great Deku Tree before anything else, but the Forest has been safe from monsters and such until he died. 7 years later and the forest is full of monsters, the Forest Temple is full of monsters and Ganon has implanted a Phantom Ganon inside. I am not entirely sure about this, but I don't think you can show Cojiro the Cucco to the Carpenter's son until after the Forest Temple...and at that point there's a new Deku Tree, and the Forest is protected once again (with different restrictions - new Deku Tree).
The thing about Stalfos being soldiers/knoights isn't just from Encyclopedia, Fi says the same thing in Skyward Sword. "This skeleton soldier is born of the dead. In its previous life, it was an ordinary knight, but undeath has improved its combat abilities."
Hero's Shade is not a Stalfos. This has been repeatedly debunked. The Hero's Shade is a spirit, and his gravestone is inside the Hyrule Castle courtyard. TP Link is also a descendant of OOT Link, so its literally impossible for this theory to be true.
An old idea I had as a kid was that Link actually DOES end up lost in the woods without Navi, which is why we see the Heroes Shade as a "stalfoes" in Twilight Princess
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mV5bGIswTtQ/mqdefault.jpg)
My favorite Lost Woods/stalfos head canon is that it’s not that you’ll get turned into a stalfos if you get lost in the woods, but that you’ll die, from starvation and exposure. And once your body rots away, the magic of the forest will reanimate your bones. Kind of like a Phantump in Pokémon.
Oooh that is dark :O
@@MonsterMaze I was gonna say this. My read was "if you die here you'll become undead". It's not that the forest is using magic to kill you, but that it will cause you to be reborn. Similar force could make Stalfos in other places i guess?
That actuly makes sense
Straight up dark and reasonable.
I was thinking the same thing by the time the video got to the Forest Temple and Ganondorf's involvement. Being reminded of the fact that the Stalfos are reanimated corpses somehow jogged that train of thought in my brain, leading me to where we are now. Though I admit, before starting the video, I was taking the "turned into a Stalfos" thing too literally as well. Now my personal head canon has changed to "dying in the woods, then being revived as a monster."
In my interpretation, the fairy kid who taught Skull Kid the song was Link himself, since there's a little side quest in OoT that involves playing Saria's Song the a Skull Kid and getting something (a Heart Piece, I believe). That's why Link has the "same smell", because it's the same person.
Awesome video, as always.
Doesn't the skull kid that Link plays the song to in OoT already know the song and reference Saria?
I always thought skullkid was saying link smelled similar to saria
The fairy kid is not link, it's saria and the skull kid already knew the song that he had learned from saria (the skull kid tells link in OOT, "You know saria's song! Let's be friends!", the skull kid already knew the song when he met Link and heard him play the song, he recognized the song that Saria taught him and possibly other skull kids, and he just wanted link to play along with him, so Link didn't teach him the song, he already knew the song), the skull kid was basically telling link in MM that he (Link) smells just like saria who taught him the song in the woods, which makes sense since Link grew up around around Saria in the kokiri forest, of course he would smell like her and the other kokiri, the skull kids and even animals would pick up other people's scents on Link.
Skull Kid already knew Saria's Song though, and he calls it Saria's Song. And the "same smell" can be argued away by the fact that Link knew Saria. If Link had been the one, then Skullkid would've outright recognised him and directly said so.
@@mischarowe sarias song is the name of the song, and throughout majoras mask/oot you constantly learn the name of songs even tho nobody has taught you, the same goes for npcs
I think the Kokiri dying outside the forest was more of a riddle-type warning meant to protect them until the Deku Tree was sure that the world had become safe again. He would've been worried at least from Link's mother dropping him off and then dying herself.
Truth….🤔
right? like how tf did mido attend the lon lon festival at the ending if it's outside and far away from the lost woods?
Or to keep link in the forest. Since hé was a kid still and thought hé was a kokiri
I don’t think it was entirely a lie. After all with the civil war and the possibility of racism toward a different species due to the way things were between the different races at that point, it was actually quite likely the Kokiri would have been killed or enslaved if they left. Thats what I have concluded the reasoning for the belief being up to that point in time.
It seems like a given to me that the fairies are what make them able to go through the forest without becoming lost. In fact that sort of thing is probably why they had fairies in the first place.
Brings the question how did links mom get through with her son to leave with the deku tree?
@@workliferecognition7002 maybe the forest or the Deku tree sensed that the soul of the hero had entered thus, alluring his mother or sending a fairy to guide her.
Hey listen
There's a story talking about it where she runs up to The Deco train and she's already past the point of no return. But because link is the hero the magic of the forest and it take him. Plus he was entered into there against his whale because he's a child a baby@@genesisgonzalez1940
"The Legend of Zelda Curse of the Lost Woods" sounds like a title to an amazing game
Yes it does. The only downside is the whole map takes place in the forest
@@felixmckinney7132 perhaps due to the curse the woods have expanded to cover almost the whole map
Pretty sure it's a harry Potter book
@@DragonFangSwordsman the forest is the whole map if you set the boundaries to be unable to leave. [Guy tapping head meme photo]
@@DragonFangSwordsman good idea but i couldn’t play a game that looks the same the whole time
Hold up. That whole "you have the same smell" quote is referring to Link if I'm not mistaken. That's because Link can play a song for a lone skull kid that is also involved in the happy mask shop side quest. Which makes sense, because that kid got a skull mask out of it too; and would explain why he targeted the Happy Mask Salesman when he saw him in the woods.
I'm more inclined to believe this, than Saria teaching a song to a random skull kid.
Yeah but in Ocarina of time, the Skull Kid already knows Saria's Song. He says, "You know Saria's Song? We should be friends!"
@@dayshallcomeagain that’s because sarias song is the name of the song
@@dayshallcomeagain I always got the impression that all the skull kids there knew her, and I also thought the smell comment was about link.
Yeah, pretty sure that he has the same scent as the kid from the forest is to say that he recognizes Link as Link. Why would a Hylian boy have the same smell as a Kokiri girl?
Yeah I dont think it was saria... she would constantly play that song and everyone in the lost woods could hear it, Link is the one who taught him jow to play it though
A minor flaw in your gossip stone reasoning is that Link's battle with King Dodongo hasn't happened, yet it is depicted on his house before you leave the forest. I would say that it is talking about Link. For one thing, you can't communicate with it until quite some time AFTER you leave the forest. This gives it plenty of time to pick up gossip about a fabled Kokiri.
In japanese Skull-Kids are called something like "Stalchildren" or "Stal-Kids" making it more likely that they are in fact transformed children.
On the other hand "Stal" is commonly used for the word "Undead" making it no evidence for transformation through a curse.
In the end I believe that SkullKids are simply Forest-Spirits who may be inspired by Japanese or even other countries folklores.
Well the undead enemies that pop up in Hyrule field at night as child Link are called Stalchildren in English, so I wonder why they decided to change up the names like that. Do you know what those enemies are called in Japanese?
@@danwg3368 Stalchildren are called "Stalbaby".
@@Prismark interesting. I wonder why they named them differently that way?
@@danwg3368 "skelaton babies" would probably be distressing to some
@@marctaco2624 As opposed to Skeleton Children which is perfectly fine
I actually thought of my own theory about the Lost Woods. Saria's Song is the same as the Song of Healing backwards. And throughout the series, backwards songs have their own properties, like the Song of Time. Since the Song of Healing frees trapped spirits and tormented souls, perhaps Saria's Song is actually being heard in-world while in the Lost Woods, tormenting the souls of those who enter, and trapping them within the woods. Maybe it was a sort of method of guarding the Forest Temple. But yeah those are just my thoughts
I think MaskedNintendoBandit dit a theory exactly like that. About Saria's Song ^^ I think it was his halloween episode from in 2019
You know, I recently read a theory about the Lost woods and why it seems to move about from game to game. The theory goes that every so many decade/centuries the Deku tree gets bored and decides to just pick up and move to a different spot. It's peripheral to what Monster Maze was talking about in the video and there's no real evidence one way or another, it's an interesting theory to think about and it could explain why all those man made structures exist in Lost woods. They're there because, at one point the woods weren't.
I mean, wherever he plopped down I'm sure a forest would sprout all around him. Since he seems to be missing from BOTW 2 trailer, maybe we will literally get to see him up and go
Like a benevolent Old Man Willow?
The reason why the Lost Woods moves from game to game, in my opinion, is the same reason as to why all other locations and landmarks move between games. And this reason, according to my headcanon, is as follows: sometime between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap (or whatever other future game might be released that's the second game in the timeline), for whatever reason (perhaps to hinder Demise's agents from getting a know of the land and thus finding a way into the Sacred Realm or destroying the Master Sword), a Link or Zelda wished for the geography of Hyrule to be unstable, magically changing at irregular intervals of time. Yes, it's sort of a cop out, but it's honestly the best explanation I've ever heard of. Geological processes happen over millions of years, way too slow to significantly change the geography of Hyrule between games, especially between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, which are said to not be too long after each other, perhaps not more than a century or so apart.
@@johnprieto435 I keep thinking about Harold from Fallout. But he used to be mobile and then became rooted. Not that the 2 are similar lol
Wherever the sprout grows the forest grows around it liek it's version of the magical barrier
Seeing as Zelda is heavily based on Peter Pan, my guess with the Kokiri Forest & Lost Woods was always that it was like the Lost Boys and Neverland. If they leave the Forest, they actually grow up.
is there actually evidence peter pan is an influence and not just similar?
@@michaelwerkov3438 He was a big influence on the first title, 'The Legend of Zelda'. It's why Link looks the way he does, with the pointy green hat and green clothes.
@@michaelwerkov3438 Miyamoto and Nintendo in general have stated it many times over the years. You can quickly find sources for that if you look online.
The Kokiri and Lost Woods were also based on Peter Pan and the Lost Boys.
Peter Pan (especially the Disney adaptation, which Miyamoto grew up on and based the references on) is often spoken of as an allegory about childhood transitioning into adulthood. It’s why Captain Hook and Wendy’s father are almost always played by the same actor; Peter is the childhood abandon and imagination of youth, and Captain Hook is the adult trying to suppress that vibrancy and force the children to grow up.
Link’s story in OoT is a tragic tale of a young boy’s youth being stolen from him as he’s brought into adulthood. He goes on a wild adventure to save the world, and is rewarded with the end of his childhood, forever.
Zelda attempted to give him some semblance of childhood by sending him back to a past before he got embroiled in the events of the game, but by that point, he was no longer a child anymore.
For Wendy, the Nursery is Neverland/The Lost Woods. For Link, Kokiri Forest is the Nursery/Neverland. Once they leave, they will never be able to stop that flow of time. Once they leave, they will be forced to grow up.
So yeah, it’s not even like an Easter egg at this point. It is flat out based off of it.
@@wokeupinapanic yeah, i mean it makes plenty of sense. i just am surprised for how much zelda stuff ive read (i got OoT on literal pre-order), i hadnt ever heard that made explicit
@@Elementianhero22
The epic Zelda series is not based on the Peter Pan stupid childish fairy tale. Link grow up and become an adult. Only like 2 out of the 20 games have pirates in them. Link doesn't kidnap some kids to take them to some fucking neverland nor does he have any problem or issue with growing up. And the reason Link wear a green hat and green clothes and has pointy ears is because he along with the other Hylians are heavily based on celtic elves like Legolas from LOTR. Elves wear a lot of green and brown like Link who is wearing a green hat, green clothes, brown boots and a brown scabbard. The Kokiri also wear green because they're forest spirits and as such they are close to nature just like the elf-like Hylians. This whole bullshit about "zelda being heavily based on Peter Pan" or comparing the epic Zelda series to a childish fairytale about a boy with major issues who refuse to grow up and who kidnap kids to take them away from their families and brainwash them into believing that growing up is something they should be scared of is simply laughable (by the way, in the original novel it says that after the kids went to neverland, if Peter Pan caught them in the act of growing up, and he would regularly measure them, if they were caught growing up, Peter Pan would kill them, in both book and play, Peter murders pirates easily, without a care, in the book we learn that Peter kills the Lost Boys too, either to “thin the herd” or because they are growing up, which is against the rules, he also periodically alters the Lost Boys’ bodies so that they can fit through the tree-holes that lead to their underground lair - and because he cannot tell the difference between pretend and real life, he will sometimes give them pretend meals and refuse to believe that they are still hungry so he's starving them, fun fact the reason why the Crocodile is always trying to eat Captain Hook is because captain hook was one of the lost boys that grew up so to punish James peter pan cut off his hand and the crocodile enjoyed it and wanted more and that's why James Hook want revenge against the psychopath child who kidnapped him, took him away from his family then mutilated him when he started growing up. Peter Pan want to kill people who grow up because he doesn't want to find out the truth which is that James Hook and his "pirates" are victims and Peter Pan is the actual villain in the story. Yup parents allow their kids to read stories about a psychopath boy who murder or mutilate kids for the so-called "crime of growing up" or to "thin the herd" because there's "too many kids" and who refuse to grow up and is disconnected from reality because he can't tell the difference between pretend and real like since he has major mental issues. Isn't that nice that parents are so dumb that they don't bother to research what their children read and then they let their kids read such disturbing and sinister stories that are really not kid friendly? Did I mention that in the Disney cartoon, Wendy become a victim of child labor at the hands of native americans who enslave white children and is told by a native american woman to shut up and wash the floor on all four like a good little white squaw, and Peter Pan want to be worshipped by the native american and called The Great White Father, so yeah put a white tribe and a native american tribe on either side of the island and watch the evolution of mutual racism. The whole Peter Pan story is so messed up and as you grow up and become an adult and leave your childish naivety behind, you can clearly see just how villainous Peter Pan really is).
Oh wow, there's a name I haven't heard in a while.
RIP Vortexxy, her vidos were so good. She would have been one of the best Zeldatubers today, no doubt.
She definitely would've 💙
Vortexxy is really missed, her videos are top notch.
They sure were! I sometimes wonder what her videos would've looked like now, had she still been around. The standards for Zelda videos have generally become higher when it comes to production, as well as of course the advancements in technology. But unfortunately... we will never know :(
@@MonsterMaze Yeah it sucks that she never played Botw, she woulda picked up on alot of cool stuff like you and others did.
I hate to ask, but… What happened to Vortexxy? 😢
@@VestigeOfFate From what I heard she died in a car accident :(
@@MonsterMaze Yeah that's what i also heard, i'm happy to hear Monster maze bringing her up again.
My personal interpretation of some of these things:
1- Stalfos are adults who die (or "are lost") in the forest, and the examples we have just happen to be soldiers because of the recent war. But they can also be created by other magical means as is obvious by their presence in other locations.
2- the reason we don't encounter them in the lost woods outside the temple is because unless they had a specific direction at their time of death, they just wander aimlessly (and let's not forget that the lost woods are huge and we don't get to explore even a fraction of them in the game)
3- skull kids are kokiri who have died, or somehow moved on to another stage of life, and that's why kokiri and skull kids get along so well.
Again, this is just how I interpret these subjects. I'm very interested to hear what others think though
I really like your interpretation about stalfos being soldiers lost during the war... it rings true for the more melancholy themes running through OoT
As a kid it always made sense to me that the Deku Tree fortified the woods for OoT with some magic. Considering Ganon came and ended up cursing him, he wanted to try and protect the Kokiri since he probably honestly had no idea when he'd die.
Vortexxy 😢 Never thought I'd hear that name again. She was my favourite Zelda theorist. Wherever she may now be, I hope she is in peace ❤️
It hit hard hearing him say her name 🥺 I still can’t believe she passed.
Oh no, what happened?
Maybe you could ask her using a Ouija board or this weekend and have her reveal what the afterlife is like.
@@rebekah4761 A car crash.
Whole heartedly agree. I hope that the love people developed for her through her work in some way finds its way to her. 💗
The Forest Temple and the passages to the Goron City and Zora's Domain were to benefit the forest - the paths would enable them to travel without meeting danger and the Temple is for the Sage.
So I reckon the Hylians/Hyrulians doing the actual building would have been provided with Kokiri guides to prevent them getting lost.
I always assumed that the Kokiri didn't obtain a fairy right away. They were assigned one in time, mainly because it seemed like the biggest deal ever when Link finally got Navi. Even Navi tells Link she's his fairy now in game, and since she is his protector and guardian, he gets through the Lost Woods A-OK, not being a Kokiri himself. In the manga, oml, what a big deal that was for him since Mido and his groupies would bully Link for being without one. So to me, I assumed the Skull Children were Kokiris pre-fairy that wandered into the woods, got lost and remained friends with the other Kokiris. Even adult Link gets attacked by these kids when he's an adult, because they don't recognize him as a Kokiri.
But again... they could just be child spirits who seem to love playing with kids and dislike adults. I still think a fairy is a main reason why the curse doesn't work at times for folks. Because there are fairy fountains in Lost Woods near the Forest Temple, maybe that well was kept there so the Hylians that once used that temple could utilize the fairies when they found out about the curse? Not sure, but it's always fun to have videos like these that make you think hard about it. XD
Awesome video as always. Really loved watching it!
I always figured that the entire set of phenomena surrounding the forest area was just a byproduct of fairy magic running rampant, since at least in mythology fairies are notable for ranging from simply being mischievous to downright misanthropic, and having a fairy with you like a kokiri would provide you at least nullification of the monster curse while wandering the woods
An easy way to fill a hole in your speculation about the missing kokiri is the fact that it was the ‘original’ Fado. The Great Deku Tree originally gave birth to Fado, a boy, and he was called to become the Sage of Wind. To do this he had to travel north and out of forest the Great Deku Tree protected. He then created Fado, the girl, to replace his lost child and told the kokiri that any who leave the forest die since Fado, the boy, never returned. Also, since the kokiri are the Children of the Forest, they would be immune to the forest’s curse since they carry the blessing of the Great Deku Tree. It is also easy to believe that when the Great Deku Tree first encountered Link he gave him this blessing as well so that the curse would not affect him as he aged.
Great video! I especially like the out of bounds angles. We’ve played OoT so many times, but seeing from those angles makes it feel fresh and new. Those small details are what make your videos great!
I did always find it weird how many childeren would've gotten lost in order to get so many skullkids but it just being a myth could make sense since the Lost Woods in Ocarina of Time were still pretty new to Hylians.
i always loved the lost woods. the lost woods in lttp terrified me as a kid and the lost woods in oot feel so homely and cozy and mystical. hearing the song at the beginning sends me back to being like six, trying and failing at playing lttp. something about old game art styles make it so much creepier lol
I think if the kokiri leave the forest they simply become adults. If they stay in the forest they will stay as childs. It was inspired by Peter's pan book. Even the dialogues in game with the fairies are really closed to the book itself :) I also think the Deku Tree made that curse to protect the forest and the childs from the war.
That theory is unlikely given that the Kokiri aren't actually Hylian but Forest Spirits based off of Kodama. According to Eiji Aonuma, the Kokiri are born as children and die of old age as children regardless if they leave the forest or not. They actual true form is the Korok.
@@enforcerridley158 The true form of the Kokiri has never made sense to be Koroks. Its specifically stated to be something they become later on in Wind Waker. Nothing anywhere ever suggests Koroks are their "true form", just a new form the Great Deku Tree gave them.
Them originally being hylian children "adopted" by the Great Deku Tree, and eventually becoming something else, absolutely is a possibility. Link simply isn't given that opportunity because he had a greater role to play.
PFFF!!! Im just saying this... Lost Woods its defintely my favorite place in Zelda, the athmosphere, music, puzzles and of course the mystic about the forest temple. Simply the epiphany of fantasy and adventure.
I hope to see a greater experience of Lost Woods in BOTW2 like OOT or better... take notes Nintendo
It made me so happy to hear you mention Vortexxy. Her videos and theories are of the highest quality and should be seen by every Zelda theory fan. Sadly, she was taken too soon from us, even before BOTW. Her videos live on as a memorial to one of the brightest minds of this community.
P. S. Her Downfall Timeline theory video is the best of the genre. I’ve never accepted something as canon more quickly
That video's one of my favourites from her as well 💙
Maybe the one Kokiri that left was the Hyrulian version of Tingle.
Or maybe the Happy Mask Salesman, who manages to wander the Lost Woods without problems, though I still prefer my theory that he's actually either the previous Gerudo King or the one Gerudo male for the Terminian Gerudo.
I LOVE that happy mask salesman theory!
Insflare1,
That theory is ridiculous and a baseless claim. Anyone with half a brain knows by now that the Happy Mask salesman is the last of the Ancient Ones (there's a lot of evidence for it), a very ancient tribe of immortal magic wielding beings with slit pupiled red glowing eyes that sealed Majora's Mask in darkness. The english translation says that the tribe vanished or disappeared, but that's because the stupid translators wanted to be politically correct and CENSOR the truth. The Japanese version says that the tribe was destroyed (or genocided), it uses the Japanese word for destroyed, not vanished or disappeared. The happy mask salesman is the last survivor of his people (king igos du ikana of the ancient kingdom of ikana was still around during the events of majora's mask but he was an undead creature because of the curse and not really among the living anymore so the happy mask salesman is the only member of the tribe who is still alive) and the happy mask salesman alone was standing in between majora and the world of termina after his people was gone and that's why he went to link for help because there wasn't much he could do to stop majora on his own (also let me tell you, the place where the ancient ones sealed majora's mask was in the pocket dimension which is the boss chamber in stone tower temple where link fight the twinmold boss, there are pillars with majora's mask engraved all over them, and the happy mask salesman said the ancient ones sealed majora's mask in darkness and igos du ikana talked about "the wind of darkness" in reference to stone tower temple).
hat's also why the HHS know about the Ancient Ones and knew how important the recovery of the ocarina was to defeat majora and knew the song of healing. The HHS is probably several thousands of years old (just like Tolkien's immortal elves, he can't die of old age but he can be killed, he's just good at surviving disasters and he has been through a lot of things and has suffered way too much already and has experienced more than his fair share of loneliness) and probably saw his family and tribe being massacred while he hid in the bushes crying and then went into hiding for a while before he tried to recover the mask to contain and/or defeat majora and when he realized he couldn't do it on his own he went to link for help.
The ancient kingdom of ikana was home to the ancient ones and igos du ikana was their king (the undead king you see in the game is the king of the ancient ones who was turned into an undead creature by the curse on the land of ikana), he wear the symbol/emblem of the stone tower temple on his clothes and the stone tower symbol/emblem is also seen in the ancient castle of ikana, as well as the mirror shield which looks like one of the masks that the happy mask salesman carry around (it has the same face), king igos du ikana also talked about "the light of justice" which are the light arrows (there's a note with the light arrows in stone tower temple that calls them "the light of justice" and king igos basically said to shine "the light of justice" on stone tower temple's emblem), yes the light arrows, created by the ancient ones, the happy mask salesman's people, to combat and defeat "the wind of dakness" escaping from stone tower temple.
Some of the dissenting ancient ones probably placed the "light of justice" inside stone tower temple after one of their people prophesied that at some point in the future a hero from a parallel universe would come along and save Termina and break the curse on the ikana kingdom, the curse that was put on ikana when the tribe was wiped out to get back against igos for following demise. The stone tower temple was built by the ancient ones when their king igos commanded them to build it to worship and bow down to the demon demise with whom they would fight in the demon wars, most of the ancient ones didn't want to build the tower or follow demise but the royals forced them to, then the followers of the fierce deity kill them all (the fierce deity must have disaprove of his followers committing mass genocide and must have been disappointed by his followers' actions) except for the happy mask salesman who was the sole survivor. Feeling guilty for the awful catastrophe he brought upon his people, igos du ikana entrust link, the hero from a parallel universe, with the elegy of emptiness and the "light of justice" and departed for the afterlife.
I put all the pieces of the puzzle back together with the help of a username SwoodMaxProductions on AO3, I wrote a story in three parts and added a few companion pieces too:
archiveofourown.org/series/1500296
Michelle.
@@Wealllovekaira
Insflare's theory doesn't add up, mine does and there's a lot of evidence for it. Read the story I wrote and see for yourself...
@@michelled.4874 you make me sad
@@Wealllovekaira Honestly,“the stupid translators wanted to be politically correct”, because it’s not like destroyed and vanished are pretty similar given the context and adds more mystery if anything. Why do people have to make everything political smh.
The story that Hylians who get lost in the Woods become Stalfos or Skull Kids could be another noble lie from the Great Deku Tree, this time to deter Hylians from trespassing on the sacred ground of the forest.
Something that's mysterious to me is that while there's a skull kid in the forest in Twilight Princess, the Kokiri, at least as far as I can remember, make no direct appearance. You cannot find them or their dwellings. I don't remember them getting mentioned anywhere either, even as a rumor or myth. It's almost as if something wiped them out long ago, and they've long since gone forgotten. Or perhaps, they do still exist, but are hidden away so well that neither the Hero of Twilight nor any other denizens of Hyrule can find them?
Depending on how serious you take the encyclopedia, kokiris will just age after leaving the forest. Amazing video. I love seeing the zelda community flourish
I love the Lost Woods in Ocarina of Time so much! So much magical storytelling is contained in this game and it’s lore.
I know this isn't the case because they probably didn't have the story of the Kokiri and Koroks fully planned out yet, but I like to think the one Kokiri the stone says left is Fado, the Wind sage from The Wind Waker. I feel like it also makes losing immortality possible, because in order for his ghost to appear in The Wind Waker, he would've had to have died at some point before the Kokiri even evolved into the Koroks.
Its flat out stated in Wind Waker the Sages of Wind and Earth were killed by Ganondorf. Which is weird, because they were in the temples, right? So when exactly were they killed? The King implies he doesn't know when (meaning it couldn't have happened before he became a spirit), so I think the game is hinting they were killed fairly recently after Ganondorf's seal was broken, meaning they've been alive all this time?
But its also weird because somehow the King is still alive, he has a physical body, but he's also a spirit at the same time?
@@JaidynReimanall six sages in oot are implied to have been killed by their dungeons' bosses so presumably they mean indirectly killed by Ganondorf
Vortexxy Gaming, now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time...a long time. Man I miss her videos. Great video though, looking forward to part 2.
She may not be around anymore, but her content will be for a very, very long time!
@@MonsterMaze she will never be forgotten !
What happened to her?
@@bareq99 She passed away.
@@sakurasarmy awww man..
May she rest peace :/
It honestly hurts knowing that Vortexxy is gone. I remember watching her theories back in 2015 and loving them. I rediscover her channel just months ago, I see a video speculating BotW before it released, then I read the comment section mourning her loss that I didn't know about this whole time? Like damn man :( I had that same feeling when I found out Issac Hayes died. RIP
That's pretty much what happened to me - I came across her in 2015 as well, my second last year of high school when I was struggling with several traumatic/tragic events... I found out what happened to her in early 2018, and even now it's a solemn topic for me 💙
I had heard a theory once about the forest temple originally being where Link's Mom was from. She knew to go to the deku tree because of Saria.
that's a pretty cool thought, I never wondered about how she knew to go there...
I think Zeltik mentioned that in a video. The game doesn't mention where she was running from or even if she was running specifically to the Great Deku tree, I don't think, just that she found it and left Link in it's care. Honestly considering how close the forest temple is it makes more sense for her to have come from there then say Hyrule castletown.
I never considered that the line about Link having the same smell as the fairy kid who taught Skull Kid a song was about Saria. I always assumed he was talking about Link himself doing that in Ocarina of Time
Yup I thought and clearly remember showing a skull kid a song in ocarina of time
Doesn't the skull kid that Link plays the song to in OoT already know the song and reference Saria?
@@mokarokas-1727 no, he had heard the song, but doesn't know it until you teach him how to play it. You also give him a mask as part of the mask side quest. It's much stronger to consider the one who taught the kid a song as Link, because of both these interactions with the same NPC.
@@kaitoudark1 - I went to check, and what he says does imply he knows Saria and learned the song from her:
"You know Saria's Song! We should be friends! Here, take this!" (heartpiece)
@@mokarokas-1727 that's not an implication of knowing it. Grammatically, it states he knows of it.
Analogy:
I know of and have heard Koji Kondo's music in Zelda, but I don't know how to play it, so I can't genuinely say I know the title theme song for Ocarina of Time song.
Mido might be a good example of how a kokiri can get by just fine in the Lost Woods. He's guarding the log path on the way to the secret meadow when you return as an adult. How long was he standing there? Who knows. I'd also like to think that perhaps Link, being a Hylian and subject to the curse, does indeed become a monster of sorts in the form of the Hero's Shade; and since Navi leaves him eventually, he likely succumbs to it. Loved your vid, thank you bunches
01:19 Can you cite this legend? Fado, the only character in the game that actually says anything about the forest being cursed, only states that anyone who enters the forest, who are not from the forest, will turn into a Stalfos... The potion lady in Kakariko Village gives a vague clue, as well, by stating that she can't cure a monster...
Head Cannon: I wonder if the lost woods / forest temple is designed to keep lost spirits there? Saria’s song is a song that soothes troubled spirits nit to mention the song of healing is Saria’s song backwards. Also, forest Temple has a lot of ghosts and phantoms in it. Perhaps the forest sages job is to lead lost souls to the temple and out of Hyrule.
Also, perhaps our entrance to the forest temple is the back of the original building? It is at the far edge of the forest so maybe the original entrance would not be in the forest only the backyard leading into a hedge maze like we see in oot. Perhaps this building was a museum or school that was attacked during the civil war.
After a stressful essay crunch over the last few days, nothing made me feel more relaxed than seeing this video was uploaded
I'd say it's quite simple, you only become a Stalfos if you die in the woods. It is called the Lost Woods after all, people get lost and end up dying in them because they didn't get out. Bones left behind in a magical woods, it's probably getting right back up eventually. Those who entered and didn't die won't be effected if they managed to get out. Makes sense to me at least
Maybe only those who die in the lost woods have their souls trapped in termina while their bodies wander. Link escaped, but remained undead.
Mini theory of why lost man is not a stalfoses (idk spelling) is either he IS the kokori that left from the gossip Stone ORRR he simply did not take a path that ends up him being lost as in the game going into that area you don't get reset or "lost"
I was once convinced that Termina, from Majora’s Mask, was located somewhere deep within the Lost Woods. That if you wandered deep enough into the forest, it would eventually be like exiting Hyrule altogether. And that it was the first place Link would go to search for Navi, after she left, due to how close it was to Korkiri Forest. It was the closest place from where she and he first met. And it was the first encounter he ended up having with Skull Kid. So why would he re-encounter Skull Kid outside of the forest?
The Lost Woods has many unexplainable roots and incomprehensible pathways. It has many secrets. Perhaps the existence of Termina is one of them.
If you think about the history of the shadow temple a couple things come to mind
1. The royal family could have created stalfos to begin with. Actual soldiers before death or otherwise.
2. Because of this possibility, they could have at some point made a macabre curse towards their own people and those who dared to get lost suffered the fate they chose thinking it just a fairy tale
Or
Fairy magic replicated the stalfos transmogrification as protection.
maybe the kokiri don't view being a skull kid as a bad thing; which is why they still play around the lost woods or further without fear or being limited by the deku tree- because it's not bad if they become skull kids or not because they'll all still be friends with each other; living under the deku trees protection. Maybe it could even be viewed as a better fate in some ways for the kids that might not be blessed with a fairy companion as a kokiri (because Link was made to be a complete outcast by a lot of them for being fairyless before anyome was aware he wasn't a kokiri.)
So maybe to the Kokiri and the Deku tree getting lost and transforming is the general path that most kids who don't truly fit in with the fairy Kokiri tribe in the village intentionally go down in ordee to become something that is more acceptable for their forest society.
I have a theory that time works differently between Hyrule and Termina. If Skull Kids are immortal, it makes sense that he knew the Giants and has been around in Termina a long time. When people cross from Hyrule into Termina, they drop into a random point in time. When Link arrived, hundreds of years already passed since Skull Kid showed up. So tldr: Termina works on Narnia time.
i love how when you make a video about something you go into so much detail about every little possibility. it's enormously fun. you really do your homework.
Maybe it's like a vampire thing. If the Hylian or other person in question is invited in and guided by a Kokiri (like entering with permission and stuff) they live and if not the get lost, die of exposure and starvation and turn into Stalfos/Skull Kids.
I assume the death the Kokiri face when leaving the forest is a psychological one.
They are protected in a bubble of eternal childhood and they will never be the same if they would encounter the war that took place in Hyrule a few years ago.
That would also explain why it is okay to meet on Lon-Lon Ranch in the credit scene as there is no evil stuff at the moment.
This is exactly how folklore works.
I like the theory that the inhabitants of the Ordon Woods in twilight princess are the Kokiri after they lost their immortality. Seems legit
Thank you so soooo much for giving Vortexxy a shout out, rest in power! ❤
Her theories are still super in depth and very concrete!!
She is dearly missed, but her memory and legacy are treasured 💙
I always felt like he tricks Link into giving away his location because he already knew of the secret passage in the Lost Woods into Termina and wanted to let his family know that he is OK but isn't wanting them to search for him...
Granny mentioned something about the woods but that is probably in the next video
I really appreciate this video because a large portion of the Zelda theory community always gets the lore regarding the Lost Woods very very wrong. The misinformation dates as far back as the birth of the awful Majora’s Mask “Grief Theory” and “Link is Dead” theory. From there, even the more experienced and talented theorists make such backwards claims with so much confidence. It endlessly bothered me for so long, so I’m glad this turned out so well.
The grief thing isn't a theory, the devs and writers literally made MM as a game about overcoming grief.
@@SunbearSmoke The grief theory states that every major location in MM represents a single stage of the Five Stages of Grief (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance). The devs themselves have said how the theory is wrong, for the same reason I think it’s dumb. The problem with this “theory” is that it grossly oversimplifies the story and makes huge leaps in logic or focuses on one miniscule aspect of any given area to make the rather piss poor analysis work.
@@atlasroyale5294 Why are you putting theory in quotation marks as if it wasn't a theory? Lol. It is a theory, even if you disagree with it.
15:27 never see Stalfos outside the Forest Temple? Excuse me? If that were the case, then what are those Skeletons that Link fights in the Shadow Temple, the Spirit Temple, and Ganondorf’s Castle? True we don’t see Stalfos outside the Dungeons, only Stalchilds, but that’s a different theory.
It’s probably worth mentioning that the moment you leave the area when Fido appears is if you go back after giving her the Odd Potion. She’s immediately gone and never to be seen again when you’re adult Link. And not to mention that the Skull Kids only appear after doing that. And it’s kind of creepy that you go back in the area and the only thing you find that’s alive is a Skull Kid. It’s strange that Fido is never to be seen again after that. You could just say it was just a coincidence. But the fact that you never see her again is really questionable.
Just also wanted to say that it has been a joy since I found your channel a week ago, I have binged most of your content and you have given fresh life and new perspectives to games I experienced as a child and it is wonderful. Keep up the great work.
Yeah, Don is for sure my favorite Zeldatuber. Or at the very least, he's tied with Zeltik. His theories are always incredibly well-researched, thoroughly-presented, and supported by evidence. That's why he's the only theorist whose channel I pay to be a member of
As I was watching the video I had a thought, in Twilight Princess you meet a Skullkid who will lead you to the Master Sword. Well we know that the TP Skullkid is heavily implied to be the same one from Majora’s Mask, what if the Hero Of Time is buried in the Lost Woods and the Skullkid is both watching over his friend’s grave and is acting as a guide for the next Hero to the Master Sword?
Slightly off topic, I like how the kokiri forest has a very neat piece of lore behind it. This isn't exactly rare, but it certainly isn't widely recognized.
The GDT refers to the Kokiri forest as the source of all life while talking with Navi before she became Link's fairy. It isn't a vital piece of lore, but still neat.
Good video, you don't see people look back on this fascinating area and its curse too often. And you repeatedly have been one of the few people to put actual doubt on the contents of the books at all, even if you still use them as evidence.
Yes, there is some great lore behind it! I love the Kokiri forest ^^
Still one of my favourite starting locations in any zelda game!
Oh and regarding the books... yeah I think it's kinda up to us sometimes to cherrypick them. There is some amazing stuff in there, but they will always have flaws
Yeeeeessssss the forest admittedly does a even better job than clocktown at teaching the basics of the game, not to mention that its location ties it into the rest of the series well.
And at least they had good concept art. Those books are also good for starting out too, they aren't perfect but they do give a solid understanding of Zelda's history.
I like the idea of kokiri forest being the place where the first forms of life were created by Farore. In the Golden Goddesses cutscene, Farore is seen in a place that looks VERY similar to the lost woods, and it's likely one and the same.
@@dayshallcomeagain It also happens to be in a similar area as the Faron region would be in later games. Neat.
A little add-on, the little balls of light that are seen constantly floating in the air in the forest also first appear when the Deku Tree talks about how Farore, "with her rich soul, created all life forms who would uphold the law." So you could say that these little spirits are possibly the oldest living things in all of Hyrule's universe.
6:13 It's referring to Saria because in the credits scene we can see her standing on Death Mountain with the other Sages
Yeah no. Its a gossip stone you can read during the game, obviously it can't be about something that happens after the game ends.
You forgot to mention how Marin got a cow delivered to link's house. How did she get it there if she isn't allowed in the Forest.
My first lost woods was ALBW’s lost woods. I entered early without the pendant of wisdom from the House of Gales. I found the road to the master sword’s resting place where I kept getting lost on the first room before seeing any poes. When I came back with the pendant the last set of poes was my bane. You have to follow three poes and then take the route they didn’t take. If you follow them, you get lost. If you don’t, you get to the master sword.
Everybody who gets lost in the Lost Woods turns into a Stalfos... and the Kokiri are unable to get lost, they always find their way home.
It's been a long time since I've played OoT. Just how are the Kokiri immortal? Do they legit never die, go through a cycle of death and rebirth like we see the Great Deku Tree do, do they still die of old age but during their whole life they look eternally young like a child so people think they're "immortal", or something else, or a combination?
I've always thought they were immortal, but grew in all other ways not physical. That wouldn't necessarily mean they're ancient adults in childrens' bodies in the common way most folks might think it, however. Since they are immortal and being physically eternal children, there would be no need for reproduction, puberty, or the messy business of getting old either. Their growing into mental and emotional maturity would be different, far more difficult to understand than what we're used to. Mido, for example, is probably quite old but he acts precisely like how he looks, and his affection for Saria reflects that. Saria seems to be far older than the rest of them, but she ends up being a Sage and has likely heard the spirits' call for long enough for it to affect her view of the world and her place in it. Link is a Hylian with a significantly shorter lifespan, so it would be in his nature to look ahead to "when I grow up" even when he thought he was a Kokiri.
I'm fairly certain I was going somewhere with that, but I'm tired and forgot it lol.
its neber really explained as far as i know, but it seems the deku tree births them, then they grow to idk they look about 8-10? then they just stop aging
In regards to the man-made structures in the Woods, I theorize that the Lost Woods isn't so much a physical place as it is a metaphysical one. That any sufficiently-dense forest can become "connected" to this realm that the Deku Tree (a forest deity) resides in. This is why it moves around so much, and why sometimes you find structures inside of them that really shouldn't be in a deep forest; the places became abandoned and were swallowed by the forest as nature reclaimed the area, and the forest became connected to the Deku Tree's domain.
In my headcanon, OOT!Link HAS BECOME a Stal, which is why his Shade takes this form as seen in Twilight Princess!
But I'd also bet that he lived to a ripe old age as a hero nobody remembers. After all, his adventures are wiped from history. His life seven years after Ocarina Of Time and Majora's Mask are completely different than in the Adult Timeline. In my mind he became a farmer in Ordon Woods. When he dies, he's itching to be remembered for something and so he Stals around and met TP!Link.
I wonder though: if Link's body became a Stalfos, but his soul became a Poe because of his lingering regret that no one remembers his heroic deeds, why does his Poe form resemble a Stalfos skeleton?
@@v1de0gamr23 maybe his poe form is the golden wolf form he has when TP link finds him and then shows himself in stal form so it can be easier to teach TP link fighting techniques. Maybe? Idk
@@TheNyleve16 I like that theory 👍. My possible fan theory is that the Hero's Shade is a Poe that resembles a Stalfos skeleton because the same lingering regrets that turned Link into a Poe also led to his death. I theorize that maybe Link, tired of not being remembered for his heroic deeds, went to the Lost Woods to try and find the way back to Termina, where he would be remembered. Unfortunately, he would get lost in the Lost Woods, and die without finding it.
But that's just a theory 👍
@@v1de0gamr23 pretty good theory
I LOVE the design of Majora's Mask 3D's Lost Woods.
My guess for the Kokiri being unable to leave the woods is more akin to how dryads can't be away from their home tree for too long or they will wither and die. Leaving for a bit to celebrate with the rest of Hyrule that a great evil has been defeated is not going to have any lasting effect on them, if any at all, but going on a long adventure such as Link's might result in them losing their lives just from time itself. Saria is obviously one of the cases where she goes to a special place under special circumstances, if she is technically leaving at all, that prevents any negative effects.
8:07 Saria didn’t teach him her song, LINK taught him that song. Majora’s Mask presumes that the player completed all the side quests in Ocarina of Time. As child link you go into the meadow, first left from the entrance, stand on the stump and skull kid appears. Play Saria’s Song, he will like you and give you a piece of heart ❤️ put on the skull mask and he will buy it, albeit underpriced. When you return as an adult, the skull kid will shoot a blow gun at you because he doesn’t recognize you, none of the Kokiri do except the Sage of the Forest, Saria; all because you grew up.
Yo can't wait to see another awesome Zelda theory. Thanks for the amazing content as always Monster 👍
I have been working on a big Zelda breath of the wild theory. It basically connects Ganondorf's mummy style body from the botw 2 trailer, the eight heroines (kind of), dlc items such as Majora's mask, and how the Sheikah power their technology; and also why/how it may be running out. My conclusion is that this is the Sheikah's biggest role in the series thus far. But there are still quite of few of loose ends that I am a bit stumped on to tie the hole thing together. I was wondering if anyone in the Zelda theory community could help me, I would much appreciate it.
I think the key phrase is "getting lost" in the lost woods. if you're just going through the lost woods l, know where you're going, you're comfortably in the lost woods, no curse. but lost? possible curse
In the n64 version if after you talk to the girl who talks about stalfos you go to the next area where the deku salesman and pillars are, a stalfos pops out and attacks you. I always assumed it was him. It only occurs after he disappears.
I always interpreted the MM Skullkid's statement about learning a song to mean he is specifically the skullkid you trade the mask to in OoT since there's a musical puzzle with him too.
Where is the immaculate OoT footage pulled from? This is the best rendering I’ve seen.
Damn hearing Vortexxy Gaming brought back some memories. Gonna go rewatch her videos
I like doing that every so often too, to keep her memory alive 💙
I have wondered about the logs in the lost woods being portal like gateways to other forests
I have also been thinking about how kokiri/koroks, Poes and someone who knows a bit of magic affect the lost woods
RIP Vortexxy. Good to see that she has not been forgotten.
She lives on in her content and our memories 💙
I have read probably a few too many fanfiction stories, but one thing that does tend to crop up in some of them is that the Kokiri are more like changelings and that they rely on their fairy for sustenance or types of fae food (basically fruits, berries, nuts and vegetables that have a heavy magic content), as I said this is from fanfiction stories so there is no canon validity and is purely headcanon.
Headcanon or not, it's a cool idea!
Ah the vortexygaming shout out, so bittersweet. She is missed, such a brilliant theorist right up there with zeltik, nbc, and you! Great video, can’t wait to see part 2!
Gone but not forgotten, Rest In Peace 💙
We miss you Vortexxy!!! You’re the entire reason I got into Zelda Theories. You’ll never be forgotten!
So true 💙
4:22 This is explained: monsters. That’s why Link is required to get a sword and shield before leaving. It’s not part of the “curse”; it’s a safety measure. Once Ganondorf is defeated, it’s safe for them to wonder. The Deku Tree was just being a protective papa.
Does anyone else think that the skull kid in TP was tasked with guarding the master sword and leading the chosen hero to it when he comes for it
I absolutely love the free cam shots you used for this video. The scenes are beautiful, per Nintendo's incredible work, and the framing is amazing on your part
Personally, I think the bit about them 'dying' if they go outside the forest was not a declartion that the act of doing so would cause death, but that they were protected inside the forest, and to leave it would be giving up that protection in a world filled with danger and strife.
It could also be something like that forest gives them longetivity, and to leave it entirely means they would eventually grow old and die, though my money is more on the warning above.
Ah yeah, Lost Woods, best subreddit with Zeldass
Personally I think that the curse they refer to in OOT is the protection of the Great Deku tree. It would explain why Link was able to exist there without turning into a skull kid or a stalfos, the Deku Tree chose to take him in, so he would have put his protection on him, and it explains why it didn't really show up in other games. OOT is the only game, if I'm not mistaken, where the Kokiri are children and not koroks. The children I think would have been at a greater risk from outsiders (capture, slavery, etc...) than the small little woodland imps that are the koroks, so to me that would also explain why "the curse" doesn't show up in other games.
I think I remember the explanation for Link being able to traverse the lost woods was because he was given a fairy, and the kokiri having fairies is what lets them survive traveling around the lost woods, without a fairy, the lost woods’ magic takes hold of you
I find something strange about every lost woods song, it seems that in other Zelda games the lost woods song sounds lost and strange, but for ocerina of time the music sounds... Happy.
The forest temple was likely a military base that was destroyed during the Hyrulean civil war and also served as a summer house or resort for the royal family. This would also explain why there are entrances to Zora’s domain and Goron city. Also, the entrance to the Forest temple that we use looks more like a back or side entrance rather than the main entrance. There’s probably another way to enter from Hyrule field.
Stal simply means skelaton, and fos means warrior/fighter. A stalfos means skelatal fighter
The carpenter's son could simply be an adult Stalfos without a weapon, who maybe wandered towards other undead (Forest Temple)
I've always taken it to be more like a starvation sort of thing. The Kokiri draw some vital nutrient from the forest itself and outside of it they grow sickly after a while then die if they don't get back to the forest in time. Even as a kid I saw no issues with short term travel from the forest, such as to the ranch for a party.
What if the kokiri that left and didn't die just went to termina and changed his name to Tingle
This could explain why Encyclopedia identifies the Hero's Shade as a Stalfos, besides the visual similarities-he has regrets from not being able to pass on his swordsmanship to his children, having died before he could, and lingered in the world of the living in the form of a wolf, and a skeletal spirit in possibly the spirit world where he trains Link. Only by passing on those skills to his descendant, the Hero of Twilight, could he finally move on.
The kokiri forest and such are a in place barrier if you will to prevent travelers from becoming lost instead of “being” lost
I always figured the transformation was related to someone perishing in the woods, either from their body giving out or being attacked by the other monsters like the Wolfos, skulltulas, and so on. Because nobody has ever observed the change, it just became assumed that simply entering the woods would cause it, or that the conclusion came about from hearsay mixing up/changing the details, as what tends to happens with gossip. Thus, it's possible that a lot of the myths are all true to some extent, but their true specifics have been lost to time. Which would fit with the fairy tale nature of the series, leaving details with an equal amount of truth, lie, and misunderstanding that speculation will always remain.
I love the lost woods something about creepy woods with or without their leaves with all sort of monsters it's just the best fantasy setting I think
I have a pretty strong theory myself. The Lost Woods are only cursed while the Great Deku Tree is alive. He created the curse in order to stop people from getting in, and his children from getting out. Ganondorf does curse the Great Deku Tree before anything else, but the Forest has been safe from monsters and such until he died. 7 years later and the forest is full of monsters, the Forest Temple is full of monsters and Ganon has implanted a Phantom Ganon inside. I am not entirely sure about this, but I don't think you can show Cojiro the Cucco to the Carpenter's son until after the Forest Temple...and at that point there's a new Deku Tree, and the Forest is protected once again (with different restrictions - new Deku Tree).
The thing about Stalfos being soldiers/knoights isn't just from Encyclopedia, Fi says the same thing in Skyward Sword.
"This skeleton soldier is born of the dead. In its previous life, it was an ordinary knight, but undeath has improved its combat abilities."
actually, after majoras mask, when link wasn't protected by a fairy anymore he turned into a stalfos, we can see this in tp
Hero's Shade is not a Stalfos. This has been repeatedly debunked. The Hero's Shade is a spirit, and his gravestone is inside the Hyrule Castle courtyard. TP Link is also a descendant of OOT Link, so its literally impossible for this theory to be true.
An old idea I had as a kid was that Link actually DOES end up lost in the woods without Navi, which is why we see the Heroes Shade as a "stalfoes" in Twilight Princess