To try to sell his products at a premium price level, you need to be transparent and show your Research and Development and be able to explain it well.
There isn't a school that could pay Gale enough to just be a teacher - all of that knowledge has a lot of expense behind it, a lot of investment into it, and carries a big price tag
He said he makes more power when he slowed down the charger. I'd like to see him go direct drive on the super charger and compare it with the 33% over.
@@wantu2much I feel (take that as you will) that it would then negate the effects gained by having a blower... IE low end boost off the line which a monster truck needs, why they used the supercharger to begin with. I really think that he's going to build some sort of manifold that goes supercharger first to turbo, to make a bastard compound reverse of what he's doing right now, turbos don't care if the airs already denser, the supercharger does. My assumption is because of the way they work all the compression is from the screws where as the compression on a turbo is from the housing acting like a venturi to speed up the air not trying to crush it together but literally shoving 10 pounds of proverbial shit into a 5 pound bag.
Gale Banks even said it himself. The screw type supercharger is trying to compress air that has already been compressed. Slowing down the supercharger gives it more time to compress the turbo outlet pressure, and more time to get more air through. The turbo drive pressure is high because the supercharger is causing a lot of resistance. Pumps (turbos) only create flow - resistance to that flow creates pressure. Adding a bypass would give you the snappy response (which Gale isn't measuring anymore), and the high RPM horsepower gains because there's less turbine drive pressure now.
I am thinking the same thing, that the positive displacement blower is loosing it seal, making heat, and requiring more power to drive it at the higher inlet density. I am wondering why there isn’t a bypass involved here so the blower gives it the instant kick but the turbos come in on song and we have the ride of the Valkyries playing. On air compressors to save HP they close the inlet to run the compressors in a vacuum sort of speak to unload the motor and reduce power consumption. I think this strategy could work here too if the blower will take it! Imagine the power spike in the curve when the turbos engage and then we shed the power consumed by compressing the air by closing the inlet to the blower . Under this strategy we can run the blower at 100% over because we’re going to quit using it about 3000 rpm so we’d have a monster torque curve at the bottom and HP for days up top... just what a monster truck needs 😉
I work in the steel industry as a foreman. The owner of our plant is EXACTLY like gale he started it 60 years ago and is also a walking encyclopedia. Unbelievable resource to have guys like this for younger guys like me coming up in any "trade"....edit he will also tear your ass up if you get on some stupid shit like gale.
It does make sense to me, that putting compressed air through the supercharger would make it work harder. Backing off the drive on the supercharger meant less losses on the crankshaft, making more power at the flywheel. I had always wondered if putting already compressed air through the blower would hurt things and this confirmed that. This, is freaking epic! Can not wait to see what the next iteration is!
You mustn't putting the compressed air into the Supercharger you can also bypass it. Than the Supercharger will be hitting in the lower rpm range and the turbs will kick in at a higher rpm when the Supercharger isn't very effective anymore
@@dirtysouthtv2209 10:57 You will see he is only making 21 PSI boost with the supercharger. After the turbos go higher than 21 PSI the supercharger is parasitic.
Yep, like Gale made clear in the Killing a Duramax series, when the turbine drive pressure exceeds intake manifold pressure, something is wrong. Clutch off and bypass the supercharger when the turbo boost exceeds manifold pressure. The engine would do better without the supercharger when the turbos are lit. The main piece of data I was hoping to see is the supercharger inlet pressure, and that was not in the data shown in this video. Is the supercharger actually adding any boost? If the supercharger inlet pressure is higher than manifold pressure, the turbo is basically trying to drive the supercharger, which is a very inefficient airmotor. The wastegates that are being used as supercharger bypasses should probably be upsized to not present any restriction to the turbo compressor. With the supercharger drive ratio reduced, the engine will no longer make 640 HP when the turbos are asleep, so linear throttle response for freestyle maneuvers will be compromised. The engine only needs the 1200 hp for donuts during the freestyle competition. I think the key is to run the super and turbo in parallel, and work out the control system to smoothly hand off to the turbo, and clutch off the supercharger to make the big number. Or take off the supercharger altogether and put compressed air tanks in the truck to spool the turbos during periods of transient throttling. Or maybe a Hyperbar system to keep the turbos spooled all the time. Just brainstorming here.
Its weird to me that he is a fucking genius, but doesn't understand running a jet of dense air, which is effectively a solid at in FI applications, into another solid wall of air, or attempting to force it around a fucking retarded shaped atmosphere cavitator, is going to create flow issues. He needs to speak with an aeronautical engineer, or study jet engines. ICE are functionally retarded when it comes to power production, and fundamentally flawed. air in, air out. the better you do this, the more you make, and you are going to hit serious plateaus when you try to make that air run through a fucking maze.
You are very right, in my eyes. But it would take a helluva compressed air tank to last 5 mins of freestyle. Blower needs to stay to initiate spool and throttle response. The wastegates bypassing the blower should be upsized, with a lighter spring. Ideally, there would be an electronic clutch on the blower pulley, which would cut it from driving, and stop it from wasting energy when at high boost from the turbos. But that’s a whole different reliability issue, and less than linear throttle response through the rpm range. Scrap that. But he’s trying to match the throttle response of a 540 Chevy big block, and just the turbos won’t do. And he WILL NOT make it blow black smoke. It’s against his philosophy. He’ll figure something out.
@@travisgilbertson9946 Root the blower into the Turbo's, couple the blower drive via magnet clutch, spare one of the two intercoolers. Add a Bypass/Throttle valve parallel to the Blower to Bypass/regulate blower boost. Reliability issues? VW did this 16 years ago and had no issues. I'm sure Gale could figure something out.
@@thetruth5232 ok, it makes more sense putting it that way, but I’m not sure about the linear torque and instant throttle response at that point. Blower has to pressurize a bunch of piping, turbos and inter coolers before there’s boost. But maybe it could be made to work.
It's crazy. He's straight giving all the info. I don't think I've ever seen someone so willing to share that type of info, they usually like to act like it's voodoo magic/trade secret stuff. This is my first time on this channel btw. Lol
You guys are wizards, and you speak my language in terms of safe efficient high power density diesel engines. Thx for showing and explaining the parameters.
Hopefully Banks going through all this shows people how difficult twin charging is to really make work and that boost doesn’t just magically add up. So many people think it’s got to be crazy power if something has a blower and turbos.
The turbo limited class guys run really low afr. It hits a peak egt around 13>1 depending on boost. Going richer and smokier will make more power and lower egts. It doesn't make. Sense but it is how it works.
I remember asking for theories on a forum somewhere around a decade ago, as to why you ran a blower into the turbos on Mike Ryans Freightliner. As best I knew, blowers moved a fixed amount of air per revolution, so having the turbos down stream could do no more than reduce parasitic losses, at the cost of drive pressure. Definitely keen to see the next episode of this!
This is my educated guess as to what's going on: The plenum in front of the twin screws is normaly tuned to allow efficient filling of the voids between the screw blades. This is similar in concept to how intake runner length for naturally aspirated engines influences volumetric efficiency. Air rushing in acts like a pulse, the best performance can be had when you carefully time the arrival of that pulse with opening of the intake valve. Now in this case there is a substantial water-to-air intercooler right in front of the blower intake, so the plenum volume will be different compared to NA operation and instead of the 1.2 kg/m³ (0.075 lb/ft³) you're now feeding the blower something with twice the mass. It's likely that the pulse-dynamics will be way different. If my guess is correct, your power gain by going to 33% blower RPM is the direct result of an improved volumetric efficiency in screw filling over the set-up with 11.000 RPM.
It's also a motor on a dyno stand with no regard for space. Also yes it is very finely tuned to run at it's optimal best, but to have this be the benchmark is just idiotic
@@Magucci13 Here you have one in operation by Gale Banks himself, not a drop of smoke and it sounds fantastic and that was in 2010 ruclips.net/video/dKc7d73yOSs/видео.html
I hope the follow up for this is sooner then later! This last update took so long! My theory is the screw blower trying to compress the compressed air from teh turbo is generating so much heat that there is no positive gain once you reach a certain point. I've heard of these sort of problem on a bunch o f the screw blowers like this whipple. ON the 03/04 Mustang Cobra when people boost that car they keep the OEM supercharger. ITs a roots style blower from Eaton and it is more compatible with the turbos. Better gains when keeping that blower then going with a whipple or Kenne bell like most people would upgrade to. WE NEED AN UP DATE SOONER THAN LATER GALE! THANKS FOR ALL THE KNOWLEDGE AND COOL VIDS!!! :D
These videos should be required classes for anyone under the age of 35 who just picked up their first diesel truck! I've had a NA gas V8 C10 since high school but I still love these videos. Modern legend, this guy...
Man I wish I had you as a mentor or a teacher during my apprenticeship, aside from being so knowledgeable, I can hang on to ur every word and my mind wanders all the time, so that's saying something 👌❤️ Thanks bud, I'll be tuning in for more.
Hello, my comment will likely going to get lost around the sea of commets, but i hope i can help a bit on this stuff 1-Compressors, don't create pressure, neither density, they create airflow, pressure is just resistance to flow, a Whipple compresses the air inside the compressor housing and a blower inside the intake manifold, a centrifugal comp, on the diffuser of the compressor housing, and as such density is a derivative of it when you coold down the compressed air. 2-A blower what basically does is increasing the engine size, a 5 Liter 4 stroke engine with a 1:1 5 liter Whipple, will have a boost pressure of 15PSI (15PSI atm + 15PSI of the whipple), and you will end with a "virtual" 10 liter 4 stroke engine. 3-A Supercharger can reduce fuel consumption but for different reasons, if the rest of the engine is tuned to work with the supercharger, Compressing air takes a fuck ton of power, compressing air from 1 to 20 bar in one go is inefficient, is better if you compress it, cool it, and then compress it more, that's what basically a supercharger does, it divides and intercools the compressing stage of the engine, but if you don't reduce the Compression ratio is going to use a lot of fuel, a series twin charged diesel, must have a Compression ratio between 14:1 and 16:1, less and the fuel will not ignite well, more and the compression strokes requires a lot of power 4-Remember that pressure and therefore the density once is cool down is just airflow+resistance, that log manifold is being restrictive leaving a lot of backpressure in the engine, backpressure that the supercharger has to fight against, scavening on a turbo engine is important, not as much as in a NA one, but the Exhaust gas backpressure is a force to be contempt with, so much that pressure wave superchargers used it to directly compress the intake. the more and better quality air you got into the cylinders the more efficient the combustion and the more power you can make, if the Duramax has an agressive valve timing overlap between intake a exhaust, *YOU NEED TO HAVE HEADERS, for scavenging otherwise you are fighting against back pressure.* 5-Superchargers have a so-called efficiency window, at a certain RPM, and at certain boost pressure they work the most efficient, getting close to 80% efficiency, and other ones they are around 60% efficient, in that efficicieny window a supercharger is more efficient than the engine compression strokes and you can reduce compression ratio to increase power by eliminating a bit the compression work of the engine itself 6-Twin charging in series, feeding a blower/whipple with a turbo indeed multiplies the pressure ratio, but that doesn't tell you the whole story, you have to take in mind that pressure= airflow x resistance, but if the mass flow at the supercharger inlet remains, the intake air pressure/density will be the same, and the mass rate will remain the same, independently of the supercharger drive ratio, remember, compressors create airflow, not pressure. 7-The ideal way of twin charging an engine would be to do things rather simple, if the Duramax is a 6.7 Liter, with a 5 Liter whipple you need 1.34 drive ratio on the supercharger relative to the crankshaft to get to the 2:1 compression ratio, (remember in a 4 stroke the real displacement is half of the measured displacement), so you get a virtual 13.4L, and then you can boost that without worrying too much. if the compression ratio on that Duramax is 16:1 then things should go rather well. 8-If you don't wanna to overcomplicate your life with serial twin charging is just easier to do it in parallel, making both, superchargers and turbocharger work in parallel feeding the intake manifold at the same time, rather than making the turbo feed the intake, you can get possibly more efficiency in series, but is hard, anyway, you will need a supercharger decouple if you use parallel twincharging. 9-The ideal efficiency spots of twin screw superchargers tends to be around 1.7 to 1.9 pressure ratios, in a serial twin charging set up most likely you don't wanna crank the supercharget drive ratio to get as much boost as you wan't but just enough to eliminate turbo lag, and help the compression of the engine, the turbo will do the rest. 10- The reason why you get more power with less boost is because the airflow to the supercharger is the same, but the compression ratio is less, and the discharge temperature is lower, and as such, the air gets to the cylinder at less temperature, and the engine has to work less work to compress that air. 11- The turbo will make the engine have a higher backpressure in the exhaust manifold, the supercharger and the engine will work harder to make the exhaust get out of the cylinders if it has a valve overlap, and the supercharger is acting at the same time as a plug for the turbo, making more pressure at its intake, the turbo has to work harder to produce the same airflow and at higher pressure, adding a wastegate, or even better, using headers alongside would solve many of those problems.
@@timothybayliss6680 that’s one big selling point, but the biggest reason is because John Deere sells a 300 hp tractor that is mechanically identically it’s 400 hp model. Only difference is the tuning, the sticker on the hood and tens of thousands of dollars.
@@Jaxon-iu6vb not just JD, there's a lot of engines like this in all kinds of markets. Hell look at the duramax, powrerstroke and cummins in the big three medium duty trucks and they're making less power than their 3500 brethren.
My thirst for knowledge is screaming for that next episode! I understand everything here but I want to know what the supercharger is doing with that dense air and why running it slower makes more power!
I'm looking forward to seeing how you plumb the supercharger first and the turbos second. It seems to me that the twin screw supercharger is analogous to a worm gear: it only works in one direction. Trying to blow through it does not efficiently turn the input shaft, so in effect it doesn't freewheel once it becomes unloaded. I'm not sure drawing through it will make it any better, but I guess we're going to find out!
Thank you mr banks for all the time and effort that you put into your products and videos. I also really appreciate learning all this new information. The videos are always fun and very informative Thanks again. Thanks for making a Playlist on this im finally catching up.💯💯👍
You mean like GM did with the locomotive 2 stroke engines? They did a mechanically driven centrifugal turbo surpercharger with an over running clutch so that when exhaust gasses were enough, it ran like a regular turbo.
@@JKCullens that is what VW did with the 1300 cc GTI Golf engine with 170 hp. Small blower for response... The decouple it when enough exhaust gases for turbo....
The Audi S5 TDI is a twin-charged engine. If memory serves me correct, supercharger is 1st, turbocharger 2nd. It was also electric, and it's primary intent was reducing/eradicating turbo lag. Being electric, the potential control over that component is far greater than vacuum and mechanical linkages however. Curious for the next video. Seems like a clutched blower with a screw bypass might be needed if turbos are contributing the most work done, but improving diesel responsiveness is a goal.
and this is why my atmospheric turbine is first in the exhaust, dyno testing will show you the efficiency and the truth. I gained 12% just on swapping the order! this is why i love banks, he test everything instead of assuming like some tuners... most.
Gale your on the right track. It's like trying to put 10lbs into an 8lb bag. Just like an industrial heating system it has to be balanced or you'll fight yourself. The supercharger has to be ballanced with the turbos. Now here's the bad news. The curves of what the turbos will put out will not match what the charger can inhale... the only thing you can do now is optimize it and then compare spool times to a compound turbo. If I had to guess compound will make more power but the cost will be tenths of a second more. Edit From reading the comments there might be some alternatives supercharger to turbo (maybe pro charger in compound to a turbocharger?). Another option bypass valves under the supercharger from the turbos so when the differential is less than x% gain they kick in.
If you do turbos first blower 2nd, the blower is able to "blow through" the turbos' compressor blades both providing low down boost to the engine instantly AND assisting the turbos in spooling faster. Come up with diverter valves/2ndary air filters and a "clutch'd" supercharger pulley... and you could essentially cut-out blower from the system and turn-off the supercharger drive in the turbo's upper boost ranges thus eliminating parasitic loss! Something to think about, only an early '99-00 2.3 Kompressor's Eaton M62 blower has a clutch'd supercharger pulley like that I know of.
I learned engineering in the US. The mixture of units is something I'm used to, but it can get confusing some times. What the hell is a poundal, and how does it compare to a slug?
I'm reckoning that pumping dense air into the supercharger is adding a lot of horsepower drain because you are compressing much denser air which takes more work from the crank even though it is the same compression ratio.
Another point worth noting, turbos and centrifugal compressors are variable displacement pump... the screw compressor is a fixed displacement pump. So for a given density, the screw compressor at some RPM can only move so much volume. Where the variable displacement can be 'blown through' which as I hear as I'm typing this, Gale makes this realization too at the end.
No IAT numbers? Would love to see multiple IATs with this compound setup, it tells a lot. I can't say I'm too surprised by these results - the Mustang community learned the same thing in the 2000s with the supercharged '03/'04 Cobras & '07+ GT500s. Some turbo system manufacturers released kits that installed on a stock engine, feeding right into the blower, so a lot of guys were trying the compound setup. At first, everyone was mind blown with the insane curves these combos produced - but, when some of them tried to start pushing them up to 1000+HP like the turbo-only guys had been doing for a number of years with these otherwise bone stock engines(sans blower), they quickly found out that they were putting these combos under a LOT more stress than the turbo-only combos, running much more boost than them for the some HP. Within probably two years of this being a bit of a fad, it died pretty quickly as everyone realized how much the blowers - any PD blower, stock/ported Eaton, TVS, twin screw - were restricting the hell out of the turbos. A lot of companies still offer their turbo systems for stock engines(w/ factory blower) just because why not, but you rarely see anyone outside of show cars running compound, it's just a waste of perfectly good turbos. Add in that everyone also realized that having 700lb-ft at 3500RPM(gas) is absolutely, utterly, unusably pointless, and you realize that it's difficult to find an application for the turbo->blower compound combination that actually makes sense, justifies the expense, and justifies the sacrifice of power/efficiency(not to mention the weight - typically two turbos, hot & cold plumbing for both, two waste gates, air-to-air, two blow-offs[on an air throttled engine], blower, air-to-water + pump, heat exchanger, reservoir...) It'll be interesting to see if you guys make this work. Honestly, I think a centrifugal could deliver the throttle response with less negative effects than a PD(and, mind you, I'm a big Whipple fan), even if you're giving up a little power at lower RPM. There were some Powerstroke guys messing with centrifugal-turbo compound setups a couple years ago, but I'm not sure if that really went anywhere. Was hoping to see them throw a serious Procharger head unit on and take it to the track, not sure if that ever happened though. But I remember them being impressively responsive, downright snappy even with a centri instead of a PD. Can't remember which compressor was blowing into which, but I believe they were messing with both configurations. I know it's a little 'ham-fisted' if you will, maybe a little bit of a dirty hack or shortcut, but I wonder if just having a conventional turbo diesel setup with a small nitrous system tuned via a DBW throttle wouldn't just be the easiest setup to get the big turbo power with instant throttle response that the monster truck guys need. Obviously Banks is working towards a much more elegant solution - but, with some forward thinking progressive nitrous tuning(especially using an ECM, MoTeC, Haltech, etc.), I think that someone could pull this off. Obviously Feld Entertainment isn't interested in adding nitrous refills to their regular maintenance of these things, but, if there's still any independents out there trying to build a competitive diesel, that could be the way to go(...or just watch the Banks RUclips channel and let the man himself teach you how to make this setup work...).
4:28 Anyone else see that arcing from the lower bank of cylinders. Looked like it was coming from a sensor lead? Don't see the same on the top bank so maybe a shielding issue?
Good eyes guys, that solves that one. I couldn't imagine Gale missing something like that, was sure it would have shown on the sensor, but a bit of tape flapping, yeah, who cares. Lol
If I remember right it’s plumbed so the turbos are basically feeding both sides of the blower. The theory being the air will follow the least resistance and feed the blower till it’s a restriction and then bypass it. But, they found that feeding the blower dense air increases the power it takes to drive it while not really bypassing it much.
@@NBSV1 yea looked at the by-pass in part 10 kinda small. what are the effects of an electo magnetic clutch on a screw type since it doesn't pulse like a roots? and get a way to get a larger pipe in below the super.
@@Thorcc I would imagine the main problem is getting a clutch setup that can handle the power without being way to big and bulky. I've seen setups on small superchargers with basically an A/C clutch. But at that point you're only looking at a few hp to driver the blower. This thing is probably pulling 100hp by the time you'd want to disconnect it. I would think ideally you'd let the supercharger pull in ambient air and feed the turbos to below the supercharger. Then if it wouldn't harm the blower have a way to block the intake so it basically stalls it and you won't have as much power drain.
@@NBSV1 sounds about right. I even think it was mentioned early in this series that the normal order is super then turbo and this was an experiment. Also i believe the real electric turbos( The 48+volt ones ) have a similar set up of complex valving for changing air source and destination before the normal turbo.
Gale, here's my thoughts here, and I agree it's backwards. As the current configuration sits, I'd think the following MAY work better, but you've likely tested it. 1) Pre-Whipple, Post-Turbo W2A Intercooler. 2) Whipple somewhere between 17.5-25% Drive, not 33%. Those IATs are killing MAD. 3) Larger Turbine Housings or upgrading to a larger turbine wheel as EMAP is still slightly out of hand (although the goal is still responsive). I'd love to hear what you think. Catch you over on Facebook and thank you for sharing all of this with us!
It is almost like Detroit figured that turbos into blowers didn’t work in the 80’s. Gale is a good guy but he gets his ideas and runs with them which is why he is always behind the curve compared to other builders.
Oh, man that mill looks like belongs in a mad max vehicle. All hail High King Gale Banks Maximus Testiclies, supreme ruler of of the Wasteland, and Grand Dragon of the Mystical Order of the Wrench.
@@maccoman71852 A big and small combo should nearly eliminate the lag and get high boost numbers. I have a stock turbo on an 05 ram. It boost to 40 psi nearly instantly. I got rid of the back pressure, installed his air horn and a tune to achieve this. Max boost is 48, but its hard to get it there. 35 to 40 all day long with out even trying.
@@jasunsmith9136 for towing or street driving sure, but the throttle response they use for a monster truck is much quicker than even that. Also if you watch his other videos you'll see why he isn't chasing a boost #.
You need a cam with less overlap. Just like with only the Supercharger, fuel mix is escaping the combustion chamber (aslo why you have so high turbine inlet temps). When supercharging an engine, you get a higher than atmospheric preasure (linerally to rpm) so it's just like running an engine in an atmosphere with higher preasure, but the exhaust still vents to normal atmosphere, mening the exhaust gets "sucked" out, anlong with some of the freash charge which is what you are seeing. I say keep the supercharger spinning fast and get a cam with less overlap and you'll see 1350 hp easy👍
Now THAT is a dyno run! That was the cleanest fucking compound charged diesel I have ever seen in my life...and it was damn near half a minute! If you were at full throttle for half a minute, that's MORE than a standing mile run right there! Would it be possible, in theory, to now design a screw blower that's specifically designed for compound charge setups?
Finished my 2 year degree Got AED foundation certified on 12.4.2020. Going for associates degrees in diesel technology 4 classes to go!! Hoping to walk in June 2021 !!
That's what they did on the Banks Freightliner Pikes Peak truck as well as a few other tricks. The coolers are useful to get the air going into the cylinders to be as dense as possible
Considering the design of that screw blower, i mostly would consider that a low presure pump, and most likley the pressure i escaping around the veins of the blower du to shaft deflection during higher boost.
i could have sworn when you showed the turbo piping set up that you had a by-pass already installed for the very purpose of when either boost from the turbo or temp was over superchargers limits part 10.
Hi Gale. I think the work you do is incredible and I love R&D. I am in industrial refrigeration industry so pressure density and flow is my bread and butter. We have done a huge amount of R&D with screw compressor’s over the last 8 years with the absorbed power and efficiency and the gas density. We found the biggest gains in the discharge port of the screws as intake density increases we would open up the discharge port more on the female rotor side to prevent over compression of the air absorb excessive power.
Break out the super capacitors! Or the high C rate lipo used by the R/C guys. 100 lbs of Turnigy 140C hardcase would cost ~$6000 and put out 900,000 watts for ~20 seconds. About 1200hp.
When reading speed/ fuel consumption charts on boat test review articles i see a common fuel consumption number for Diesels. Most Diesel boats us 5 +/- gph per 100 hp at full throttle. So a boat with twin 500 hp Diesels ( 1000 hp total ) will consume about 50 gph. Twin 500 hp gasoline engines will burn about 80 gph at full throttle. Supercharged gas engines eat more because they have to develop power to spin the blower and they tend to be set to run rich for safety. At one point Gale showed a bsfc number of over .600! That is a bad number for a gasoline engine. Diesels typically are under a bsfc number less then .400
If I'm understanding the data and what you have done, it seems that the blower is restricting the air inlet flow being after the turbos, as if its too small of inlet to the manifold causing back pressureon the compressor wheel. wouldn't it be better to compound a small turbo for fast spool on low end and bigger for top end? I know that none of the big manufacturers are doing this anymore, if I recall Cat and Navistar were the only ones to do this on larger engines but with terrible reliability results. I know cummins just reduced the size of the turbo for their large engines X15 for better power on the low end. I am very curious for next episode.
So the blower is absolutely a restriction and sacrifice to overall flow in return for instant volume of air for throttle response. A well thought out compound turbo setup can have minimal lag but if you look at monster trucks and how they drive that application won't work. They did use compounds in larger commercial applications however the shortfall there is they also typically require an exhaust brake. Mix that with large boost numbers and yes huge reliability issues result from massive backpressure. This problem can even arise from a single vgt turbo as well.
When Detroit Diesel was looking for higher hp for pleasure boat high performance Sport fishing etc they went a similar route. DD 6-71 were up to approximately 300 hp with just the (needed rootes blower) to 410 hp with an added turbo, to 450 with an aftercooler to finally about 485 -500 hp with ever larger injectors. Don't know if they put a bypass valve on the 6-71. They went full tilt on 92 series engines with intercoolers. aftercoolers bypass valves and big injectors. The full tilt 8-92s put out between 750-800 hp in high performance pleasure boat ratings at no more then 2500 rpm. The commercial boat versions put out about half as much power at about 2100 rpms and could run for 10s of thousands hours. The high performance versions could get tired in a few thousand hours if not given a little TLC. The Detroit Diesel hp race got it's boost from the factory building modified 6-71s for Vietnam river patrol boats. Then the various Detroit Diesel regional distributors went on A hp race exceeding the official factory ratings for the same base engines .
maybe the supercharger is actually blocking airflow at higher boost levels? think like this: the SR71 engines were only jet engines up to a certain airspeed, then they switched to ram-jets because the immense airflow couldn't be handled efficiently by a jet engines compressor section, so the air was bypassed around the jet turbine section into a ram-jet section that didn't have the limitations of compressor blades getting in the way. maybe the supercharger rotors are just getting in the way of the charge air coming off the turbochargers? Maybe by slowing them down they give the boost off of the turbos more time to pack into the rotor as they rotate, physics dictates that even at a higher inlet pressure, the air can only fill the void in the supercharger rotors in only so many milliseconds and that there has to be a practical limit to how fast this can take place. I'd like to see Mr. Banks try out some electric boosted turbo's like Mercedes uses? I am curious how they could work as they're supposed to help eliminate turbo-lag. just some guess's though.
It from my point of view sounds like your charge air from the turbo is running between the supercharger blades. The slower you spin the supercharger the more air gets through. Move the turbo flow underneath the supercharger! So at higher engine speeds it makes the same wall that kept the charge from moving through!
Gale is 78 years old and not afraid of using the latest tech to build crazy engines. That’s awesome!
Too bad Joe Biden isn't as sharp at 78 as Gale Banks!
@@sglamb17 lmao facts
The knowledge in this man's pinky would put many people to shame.
@@sglamb17we would have gotten thru Covid a hell of a lot faster is Gale was in charge 😂
gale is someone who I can tell has always been fascinated with the latest tech available
I can’t believe Gale puts these on the internet for free. What a generous guy. An absolute legend, just spitting truth and wisdom.
To try to sell his products at a premium price level, you need to be transparent and show your Research and Development and be able to explain it well.
I think he wants to teach anyone willing to listen, so his knowledge can live on the next generations. Which is really awesome. 👌
I wish I could’ve had a shop teacher like Gale!!!
Mee too
No kidding but imagine the tuition cost on that class!
There isn't a school that could pay Gale enough to just be a teacher - all of that knowledge has a lot of expense behind it, a lot of investment into it, and carries a big price tag
@@RyTrapp0 yep, that's my point
@@stevegreene4880 so worth it.
Man, I have been waiting a while on part 14 🤯 don’t leave us hanging guys 🤨
Same thing with killing a Duramax. Easily the best series in RUclips and they’re brutal cliff hangers.
Sounds like the supercharger is just in the way at higher RPM.
This is why some make the bypass... you supercharge at low rpm and turbo in the higher range.
He said he makes more power when he slowed down the charger. I'd like to see him go direct drive on the super charger and compare it with the 33% over.
@@wantu2much I feel (take that as you will) that it would then negate the effects gained by having a blower... IE low end boost off the line which a monster truck needs, why they used the supercharger to begin with.
I really think that he's going to build some sort of manifold that goes supercharger first to turbo, to make a bastard compound reverse of what he's doing right now, turbos don't care if the airs already denser, the supercharger does. My assumption is because of the way they work all the compression is from the screws where as the compression on a turbo is from the housing acting like a venturi to speed up the air not trying to crush it together but literally shoving 10 pounds of proverbial shit into a 5 pound bag.
Gale Banks even said it himself. The screw type supercharger is trying to compress air that has already been compressed. Slowing down the supercharger gives it more time to compress the turbo outlet pressure, and more time to get more air through. The turbo drive pressure is high because the supercharger is causing a lot of resistance. Pumps (turbos) only create flow - resistance to that flow creates pressure. Adding a bypass would give you the snappy response (which Gale isn't measuring anymore), and the high RPM horsepower gains because there's less turbine drive pressure now.
I am thinking the same thing, that the positive displacement blower is loosing it seal, making heat, and requiring more power to drive it at the higher inlet density. I am wondering why there isn’t a bypass involved here so the blower gives it the instant kick but the turbos come in on song and we have the ride of the Valkyries playing. On air compressors to save HP they close the inlet to run the compressors in a vacuum sort of speak to unload the motor and reduce power consumption. I think this strategy could work here too if the blower will take it! Imagine the power spike in the curve when the turbos engage and then we shed the power consumed by compressing the air by closing the inlet to the blower . Under this strategy we can run the blower at 100% over because we’re going to quit using it about 3000 rpm so we’d have a monster torque curve at the bottom and HP for days up top... just what a monster truck needs 😉
I would pay money to just stand in the corner of that shop
I work in the steel industry as a foreman. The owner of our plant is EXACTLY like gale he started it 60 years ago and is also a walking encyclopedia. Unbelievable resource to have guys like this for younger guys like me coming up in any "trade"....edit he will also tear your ass up if you get on some stupid shit like gale.
Facts.
This man has so much knowledge to give. Thank you for every step forward you make in the name of performance.
It does make sense to me, that putting compressed air through the supercharger would make it work harder. Backing off the drive on the supercharger meant less losses on the crankshaft, making more power at the flywheel. I had always wondered if putting already compressed air through the blower would hurt things and this confirmed that. This, is freaking epic! Can not wait to see what the next iteration is!
You mustn't putting the compressed air into the Supercharger you can also bypass it. Than the Supercharger will be hitting in the lower rpm range and the turbs will kick in at a higher rpm when the Supercharger isn't very effective anymore
The twin screws are the choke point in that particular setup.
You can tune it to some degree by adjusting the screw speed, but you’re very limited.
@@dirtysouthtv2209 10:57 You will see he is only making 21 PSI boost with the supercharger. After the turbos go higher than 21 PSI the supercharger is parasitic.
Yep, like Gale made clear in the Killing a Duramax series, when the turbine drive pressure exceeds intake manifold pressure, something is wrong. Clutch off and bypass the supercharger when the turbo boost exceeds manifold pressure. The engine would do better without the supercharger when the turbos are lit.
The main piece of data I was hoping to see is the supercharger inlet pressure, and that was not in the data shown in this video. Is the supercharger actually adding any boost? If the supercharger inlet pressure is higher than manifold pressure, the turbo is basically trying to drive the supercharger, which is a very inefficient airmotor. The wastegates that are being used as supercharger bypasses should probably be upsized to not present any restriction to the turbo compressor.
With the supercharger drive ratio reduced, the engine will no longer make 640 HP when the turbos are asleep, so linear throttle response for freestyle maneuvers will be compromised. The engine only needs the 1200 hp for donuts during the freestyle competition. I think the key is to run the super and turbo in parallel, and work out the control system to smoothly hand off to the turbo, and clutch off the supercharger to make the big number. Or take off the supercharger altogether and put compressed air tanks in the truck to spool the turbos during periods of transient throttling. Or maybe a Hyperbar system to keep the turbos spooled all the time. Just brainstorming here.
You are 100 percent right. Too much boost on the back end and a supercharger doesn’t work well that way
Its weird to me that he is a fucking genius, but doesn't understand running a jet of dense air, which is effectively a solid at in FI applications, into another solid wall of air, or attempting to force it around a fucking retarded shaped atmosphere cavitator, is going to create flow issues. He needs to speak with an aeronautical engineer, or study jet engines. ICE are functionally retarded when it comes to power production, and fundamentally flawed. air in, air out. the better you do this, the more you make, and you are going to hit serious plateaus when you try to make that air run through a fucking maze.
You are very right, in my eyes. But it would take a helluva compressed air tank to last 5 mins of freestyle. Blower needs to stay to initiate spool and throttle response. The wastegates bypassing the blower should be upsized, with a lighter spring. Ideally, there would be an electronic clutch on the blower pulley, which would cut it from driving, and stop it from wasting energy when at high boost from the turbos. But that’s a whole different reliability issue, and less than linear throttle response through the rpm range. Scrap that. But he’s trying to match the throttle response of a 540 Chevy big block, and just the turbos won’t do. And he WILL NOT make it blow black smoke. It’s against his philosophy. He’ll figure something out.
@@travisgilbertson9946 Root the blower into the Turbo's, couple the blower drive via magnet clutch, spare one of the two intercoolers. Add a Bypass/Throttle valve parallel to the Blower to Bypass/regulate blower boost. Reliability issues? VW did this 16 years ago and had no issues. I'm sure Gale could figure something out.
@@thetruth5232 ok, it makes more sense putting it that way, but I’m not sure about the linear torque and instant throttle response at that point. Blower has to pressurize a bunch of piping, turbos and inter coolers before there’s boost. But maybe it could be made to work.
Hoonigan, sit down and take notes! Absolute madlad! God bless Gale Banks!
Basically saying "totally ditch the blower"!
Damn shots fired lol... how dare you scumbag the scumbags hahaha
I’m
The long wait! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and excitement.
It's crazy. He's straight giving all the info. I don't think I've ever seen someone so willing to share that type of info, they usually like to act like it's voodoo magic/trade secret stuff. This is my first time on this channel btw. Lol
You guys are wizards, and you speak my language in terms of safe efficient high power density diesel engines. Thx for showing and explaining the parameters.
Hopefully Banks going through all this shows people how difficult twin charging is to really make work and that boost doesn’t just magically add up. So many people think it’s got to be crazy power if something has a blower and turbos.
19:02 Proof that running a diesel rich doesn't lower egt
everyone knew diesels were backwards compared to gassers. more fuel = more power = more egt
15.1 isn't rich enough to cool the EGT's down, Try below 13:1
but, i still tune cars to 16:1 no point going lower on a street car.
The turbo limited class guys run really low afr. It hits a peak egt around 13>1 depending on boost. Going richer and smokier will make more power and lower egts. It doesn't make. Sense but it is how it works.
@@timothybayliss6680 completely correct!
@@aleks138 true, but like gas engines the amount of power a diesel produces is still governed by how much air you can get into the engine
Lord a pray you keep gale here as long as possible. So he can do what he do best.
I remember asking for theories on a forum somewhere around a decade ago, as to why you ran a blower into the turbos on Mike Ryans Freightliner. As best I knew, blowers moved a fixed amount of air per revolution, so having the turbos down stream could do no more than reduce parasitic losses, at the cost of drive pressure. Definitely keen to see the next episode of this!
This is my educated guess as to what's going on: The plenum in front of the twin screws is normaly tuned to allow efficient filling of the voids between the screw blades. This is similar in concept to how intake runner length for naturally aspirated engines influences volumetric efficiency. Air rushing in acts like a pulse, the best performance can be had when you carefully time the arrival of that pulse with opening of the intake valve.
Now in this case there is a substantial water-to-air intercooler right in front of the blower intake, so the plenum volume will be different compared to NA operation and instead of the 1.2 kg/m³ (0.075 lb/ft³) you're now feeding the blower something with twice the mass. It's likely that the pulse-dynamics will be way different.
If my guess is correct, your power gain by going to 33% blower RPM is the direct result of an improved volumetric efficiency in screw filling over the set-up with 11.000 RPM.
Switch back to the roots blower? Maybe they like to be fed denser air than the whipple?
I love that, i don’t want to paint the walls with parts, but let’s bang this Turkey! I’ll keep that one in my head forever!
This is diesel tuning, not like those idiots who only send boost and fuel like crazy
It's also a motor on a dyno stand with no regard for space. Also yes it is very finely tuned to run at it's optimal best, but to have this be the benchmark is just idiotic
@@Magucci13 Here you have one in operation by Gale Banks himself, not a drop of smoke and it sounds fantastic and that was in 2010 ruclips.net/video/dKc7d73yOSs/видео.html
@@Franco_FC that's uh. Not a truck body....🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@Magucci13 That is precisely why I sent it, it is much more limited than a truck, perfectly viable to put it on a truck ...
@@Franco_FC you're joking right? Also did he win anything? I have seen his sled pull and dirt drag trucks. They sucked
Need more content please, bunch of data junkies here.
The data makes the content... everything else is wasted fuel and smoke :)
Yes, agreed! The abundance of data and analysis really makes these stand out. Not everyone enjoys this must detail, but I love it.
He has to be the coolest and the eldest voice ive heard say sd card.
I just found this channel and I couldnt be happier
Love to hear this, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss anything.
@@bankspower This is probably the only time I'll be able to say this. Way ahead of you hahaha
I'm all eyeballs and ears waiting for the next episode.
Where is it
I hope the follow up for this is sooner then later! This last update took so long! My theory is the screw blower trying to compress the compressed air from teh turbo is generating so much heat that there is no positive gain once you reach a certain point. I've heard of these sort of problem on a bunch o f the screw blowers like this whipple. ON the 03/04 Mustang Cobra when people boost that car they keep the OEM supercharger. ITs a roots style blower from Eaton and it is more compatible with the turbos. Better gains when keeping that blower then going with a whipple or Kenne bell like most people would upgrade to.
WE NEED AN UP DATE SOONER THAN LATER GALE! THANKS FOR ALL THE KNOWLEDGE AND COOL VIDS!!! :D
Been waiting for this episode for months! Nice
These videos should be required classes for anyone under the age of 35 who just picked up their first diesel truck! I've had a NA gas V8 C10 since high school but I still love these videos. Modern legend, this guy...
WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS SERIES???
Man I wish I had you as a mentor or a teacher during my apprenticeship, aside from being so knowledgeable, I can hang on to ur every word and my mind wanders all the time, so that's saying something 👌❤️
Thanks bud, I'll be tuning in for more.
Great to see this series back :)
great video and very educational
Hello, my comment will likely going to get lost around the sea of commets, but i hope i can help a bit on this stuff
1-Compressors, don't create pressure, neither density, they create airflow, pressure is just resistance to flow, a Whipple compresses the air inside the compressor housing and a blower inside the intake manifold, a centrifugal comp, on the diffuser of the compressor housing, and as such density is a derivative of it when you coold down the compressed air.
2-A blower what basically does is increasing the engine size, a 5 Liter 4 stroke engine with a 1:1 5 liter Whipple, will have a boost pressure of 15PSI (15PSI atm + 15PSI of the whipple), and you will end with a "virtual" 10 liter 4 stroke engine.
3-A Supercharger can reduce fuel consumption but for different reasons, if the rest of the engine is tuned to work with the supercharger, Compressing air takes a fuck ton of power, compressing air from 1 to 20 bar in one go is inefficient, is better if you compress it, cool it, and then compress it more, that's what basically a supercharger does, it divides and intercools the compressing stage of the engine, but if you don't reduce the Compression ratio is going to use a lot of fuel, a series twin charged diesel, must have a Compression ratio between 14:1 and 16:1, less and the fuel will not ignite well, more and the compression strokes requires a lot of power
4-Remember that pressure and therefore the density once is cool down is just airflow+resistance, that log manifold is being restrictive leaving a lot of backpressure in the engine, backpressure that the supercharger has to fight against, scavening on a turbo engine is important, not as much as in a NA one, but the Exhaust gas backpressure is a force to be contempt with, so much that pressure wave superchargers used it to directly compress the intake. the more and better quality air you got into the cylinders the more efficient the combustion and the more power you can make, if the Duramax has an agressive valve timing overlap between intake a exhaust, *YOU NEED TO HAVE HEADERS, for scavenging otherwise you are fighting against back pressure.*
5-Superchargers have a so-called efficiency window, at a certain RPM, and at certain boost pressure they work the most efficient, getting close to 80% efficiency, and other ones they are around 60% efficient, in that efficicieny window a supercharger is more efficient than the engine compression strokes and you can reduce compression ratio to increase power by eliminating a bit the compression work of the engine itself
6-Twin charging in series, feeding a blower/whipple with a turbo indeed multiplies the pressure ratio, but that doesn't tell you the whole story, you have to take in mind that pressure= airflow x resistance, but if the mass flow at the supercharger inlet remains, the intake air pressure/density will be the same, and the mass rate will remain the same, independently of the supercharger drive ratio, remember, compressors create airflow, not pressure.
7-The ideal way of twin charging an engine would be to do things rather simple, if the Duramax is a 6.7 Liter, with a 5 Liter whipple you need 1.34 drive ratio on the supercharger relative to the crankshaft to get to the 2:1 compression ratio, (remember in a 4 stroke the real displacement is half of the measured displacement), so you get a virtual 13.4L, and then you can boost that without worrying too much. if the compression ratio on that Duramax is 16:1 then things should go rather well.
8-If you don't wanna to overcomplicate your life with serial twin charging is just easier to do it in parallel, making both, superchargers and turbocharger work in parallel feeding the intake manifold at the same time, rather than making the turbo feed the intake, you can get possibly more efficiency in series, but is hard, anyway, you will need a supercharger decouple if you use parallel twincharging.
9-The ideal efficiency spots of twin screw superchargers tends to be around 1.7 to 1.9 pressure ratios, in a serial twin charging set up most likely you don't wanna crank the supercharget drive ratio to get as much boost as you wan't but just enough to eliminate turbo lag, and help the compression of the engine, the turbo will do the rest.
10- The reason why you get more power with less boost is because the airflow to the supercharger is the same, but the compression ratio is less, and the discharge temperature is lower, and as such, the air gets to the cylinder at less temperature, and the engine has to work less work to compress that air.
11- The turbo will make the engine have a higher backpressure in the exhaust manifold, the supercharger and the engine will work harder to make the exhaust get out of the cylinders if it has a valve overlap, and the supercharger is acting at the same time as a plug for the turbo, making more pressure at its intake, the turbo has to work harder to produce the same airflow and at higher pressure, adding a wastegate, or even better, using headers alongside would solve many of those problems.
I’ve understood most of what you’ve said conceptually before, but this really breaks it down. Thanks for posting!
This guy is amazing, I hope hes healthy. We need him around
Well hes not wearing a mask in this video so He's not only mentally healthy but physically.
Always keeping us thinking Mr. Banks! Love watching and learning! God bless!
Banks should get into the agricultural tuning market. It is getting to be a bigger and bigger industry.
Guys are starting to look for reflashes that can save them fuel. If guys can save $100 a week fueling their machines they will try it.
@@timothybayliss6680 that’s one big selling point, but the biggest reason is because John Deere sells a 300 hp tractor that is mechanically identically it’s 400 hp model. Only difference is the tuning, the sticker on the hood and tens of thousands of dollars.
@@Jaxon-iu6vb not just JD, there's a lot of engines like this in all kinds of markets. Hell look at the duramax, powrerstroke and cummins in the big three medium duty trucks and they're making less power than their 3500 brethren.
@@BlackHawkBallistic I understand that almost every engine manufacturer does this. I was just using Deere as an example.
My thirst for knowledge is screaming for that next episode! I understand everything here but I want to know what the supercharger is doing with that dense air and why running it slower makes more power!
I'm looking forward to seeing how you plumb the supercharger first and the turbos second. It seems to me that the twin screw supercharger is analogous to a worm gear: it only works in one direction. Trying to blow through it does not efficiently turn the input shaft, so in effect it doesn't freewheel once it becomes unloaded. I'm not sure drawing through it will make it any better, but I guess we're going to find out!
Thank you mr banks for all the time and effort that you put into your products and videos. I also really appreciate learning all this new information. The videos are always fun and very informative
Thanks again. Thanks for making a Playlist on this im finally catching up.💯💯👍
ARGHHHH...!!! Worst cliffhanger ever!!!
I'm still patiently waiting for him to kill a Duramax.
Aside from a runaway, I ain’t ever seen a big diesel rev this high lmao
I'm lost.. so y'all telling me I just can't throw in a blower on my truck and put in 91 octane for some cheap thrills.. I gatta do math now 🤯
No silly its diesel ,ctane not octane.dont put gas in a diesel.
@@tomrose6292 all I heard was... It puts the lotion on its skin lol
You totally can.....but for how long will depend on all them maths
Never have I been so exited about "The next episode" here at youtube. This is the best channel here at RUclips by a mile.
if you could decouple and bypass the super when at WOT past the boost threshold limit you'll probably see a 250-300hp boost
You mean like GM did with the locomotive 2 stroke engines? They did a mechanically driven centrifugal turbo surpercharger with an over running clutch so that when exhaust gasses were enough, it ran like a regular turbo.
@@kleetus92 no like exactly like I said
@@JKCullens lol, that's what gm did!
@@JKCullens that is what VW did with the 1300 cc GTI Golf engine with 170 hp. Small blower for response... The decouple it when enough exhaust gases for turbo....
@@Baard2000 see comment above.
The Audi S5 TDI is a twin-charged engine. If memory serves me correct, supercharger is 1st, turbocharger 2nd. It was also electric, and it's primary intent was reducing/eradicating turbo lag. Being electric, the potential control over that component is far greater than vacuum and mechanical linkages however.
Curious for the next video. Seems like a clutched blower with a screw bypass might be needed if turbos are contributing the most work done, but improving diesel responsiveness is a goal.
That sounds insane at 5k rpm!
Thanks again Mr Banks. I wish I could spend a few weeks with you working on engines in Dyno Cell #1. I really appreciate the in depth explanations.
and this is why my atmospheric turbine is first in the exhaust, dyno testing will show you the efficiency and the truth. I gained 12% just on swapping the order! this is why i love banks, he test everything instead of assuming like some tuners... most.
Gale your on the right track. It's like trying to put 10lbs into an 8lb bag. Just like an industrial heating system it has to be balanced or you'll fight yourself. The supercharger has to be ballanced with the turbos. Now here's the bad news. The curves of what the turbos will put out will not match what the charger can inhale... the only thing you can do now is optimize it and then compare spool times to a compound turbo. If I had to guess compound will make more power but the cost will be tenths of a second more. Edit From reading the comments there might be some alternatives supercharger to turbo (maybe pro charger in compound to a turbocharger?). Another option bypass valves under the supercharger from the turbos so when the differential is less than x% gain they kick in.
I would like to see a procharger also!
Slower airspeed = cooler air = denser air = more power
yup that was my thought
If you do turbos first blower 2nd, the blower is able to "blow through" the turbos' compressor blades both providing low down boost to the engine instantly AND assisting the turbos in spooling faster. Come up with diverter valves/2ndary air filters and a "clutch'd" supercharger pulley... and you could essentially cut-out blower from the system and turn-off the supercharger drive in the turbo's upper boost ranges thus eliminating parasitic loss! Something to think about, only an early '99-00 2.3 Kompressor's Eaton M62 blower has a clutch'd supercharger pulley like that I know of.
damn i love these videos but as an engineer from over the pond, the lack of SI units is frustrating. pounds per cubic bald eagle is painful... :)
I learned engineering in the US. The mixture of units is something I'm used to, but it can get confusing some times. What the hell is a poundal, and how does it compare to a slug?
😆
I'm reckoning that pumping dense air into the supercharger is adding a lot of horsepower drain because you are compressing much denser air which takes more work from the crank even though it is the same compression ratio.
Another point worth noting, turbos and centrifugal compressors are variable displacement pump... the screw compressor is a fixed displacement pump. So for a given density, the screw compressor at some RPM can only move so much volume. Where the variable displacement can be 'blown through' which as I hear as I'm typing this, Gale makes this realization too at the end.
I love how he connects all the data. It all has to work in harmony and how he explains it.
I’d love to see a good ol tried and true 3 turbo setup
Its twin turbo
@@parkersposts No Shit, he said he'd like to see a tried and true TRIPLE Turbo Set-up.
No IAT numbers? Would love to see multiple IATs with this compound setup, it tells a lot.
I can't say I'm too surprised by these results - the Mustang community learned the same thing in the 2000s with the supercharged '03/'04 Cobras & '07+ GT500s. Some turbo system manufacturers released kits that installed on a stock engine, feeding right into the blower, so a lot of guys were trying the compound setup. At first, everyone was mind blown with the insane curves these combos produced - but, when some of them tried to start pushing them up to 1000+HP like the turbo-only guys had been doing for a number of years with these otherwise bone stock engines(sans blower), they quickly found out that they were putting these combos under a LOT more stress than the turbo-only combos, running much more boost than them for the some HP. Within probably two years of this being a bit of a fad, it died pretty quickly as everyone realized how much the blowers - any PD blower, stock/ported Eaton, TVS, twin screw - were restricting the hell out of the turbos.
A lot of companies still offer their turbo systems for stock engines(w/ factory blower) just because why not, but you rarely see anyone outside of show cars running compound, it's just a waste of perfectly good turbos.
Add in that everyone also realized that having 700lb-ft at 3500RPM(gas) is absolutely, utterly, unusably pointless, and you realize that it's difficult to find an application for the turbo->blower compound combination that actually makes sense, justifies the expense, and justifies the sacrifice of power/efficiency(not to mention the weight - typically two turbos, hot & cold plumbing for both, two waste gates, air-to-air, two blow-offs[on an air throttled engine], blower, air-to-water + pump, heat exchanger, reservoir...)
It'll be interesting to see if you guys make this work. Honestly, I think a centrifugal could deliver the throttle response with less negative effects than a PD(and, mind you, I'm a big Whipple fan), even if you're giving up a little power at lower RPM. There were some Powerstroke guys messing with centrifugal-turbo compound setups a couple years ago, but I'm not sure if that really went anywhere. Was hoping to see them throw a serious Procharger head unit on and take it to the track, not sure if that ever happened though. But I remember them being impressively responsive, downright snappy even with a centri instead of a PD.
Can't remember which compressor was blowing into which, but I believe they were messing with both configurations.
I know it's a little 'ham-fisted' if you will, maybe a little bit of a dirty hack or shortcut, but I wonder if just having a conventional turbo diesel setup with a small nitrous system tuned via a DBW throttle wouldn't just be the easiest setup to get the big turbo power with instant throttle response that the monster truck guys need. Obviously Banks is working towards a much more elegant solution - but, with some forward thinking progressive nitrous tuning(especially using an ECM, MoTeC, Haltech, etc.), I think that someone could pull this off. Obviously Feld Entertainment isn't interested in adding nitrous refills to their regular maintenance of these things, but, if there's still any independents out there trying to build a competitive diesel, that could be the way to go(...or just watch the Banks RUclips channel and let the man himself teach you how to make this setup work...).
4:28 Anyone else see that arcing from the lower bank of cylinders. Looked like it was coming from a sensor lead? Don't see the same on the top bank so maybe a shielding issue?
Strange must be
Looks like some electrical tape waving around, distorting shop lights reflection.
@@claterpillar1 yeah it is at 3:39 you can see if flapping around
Good eyes guys, that solves that one. I couldn't imagine Gale missing something like that, was sure it would have shown on the sensor, but a bit of tape flapping, yeah, who cares. Lol
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸 USA
You should look at the Detroit Diesel 8v 92 silver I think they use a bypass on the blower to get the horsepower
This might be the way to do it, bypass the blower with an adjustable pressure valve so the turbos spool up and take over when they can...
@@persistentwind as Lancia Delta S4 did in the '80s (gasoline engine turbo+supercharger)
Gale Banks is the Jordan Peterson of Duramax engines.
Could you blow the turbo pressure in under the blower to improve efficiency?
If I remember right it’s plumbed so the turbos are basically feeding both sides of the blower. The theory being the air will follow the least resistance and feed the blower till it’s a restriction and then bypass it.
But, they found that feeding the blower dense air increases the power it takes to drive it while not really bypassing it much.
If you came in under you'll likely see the blower have some serious issues as its fighting to keep In a delta it's not designed for.
@@NBSV1 yea looked at the by-pass in part 10 kinda small. what are the effects of an electo magnetic clutch on a screw type since it doesn't pulse like a roots? and get a way to get a larger pipe in below the super.
@@Thorcc I would imagine the main problem is getting a clutch setup that can handle the power without being way to big and bulky. I've seen setups on small superchargers with basically an A/C clutch. But at that point you're only looking at a few hp to driver the blower. This thing is probably pulling 100hp by the time you'd want to disconnect it.
I would think ideally you'd let the supercharger pull in ambient air and feed the turbos to below the supercharger. Then if it wouldn't harm the blower have a way to block the intake so it basically stalls it and you won't have as much power drain.
@@NBSV1 sounds about right. I even think it was mentioned early in this series that the normal order is super then turbo and this was an experiment.
Also i believe the real electric turbos( The 48+volt ones ) have a similar set up of complex valving for changing air source and destination before the normal turbo.
Two guys everyone should listen too . Gale Banks and David Vizard
Gale, here's my thoughts here, and I agree it's backwards. As the current configuration sits, I'd think the following MAY work better, but you've likely tested it. 1) Pre-Whipple, Post-Turbo W2A Intercooler. 2) Whipple somewhere between 17.5-25% Drive, not 33%. Those IATs are killing MAD. 3) Larger Turbine Housings or upgrading to a larger turbine wheel as EMAP is still slightly out of hand (although the goal is still responsive).
I'd love to hear what you think. Catch you over on Facebook and thank you for sharing all of this with us!
What's up with killing a Duramax series?
They are assembling engines for Oshkosh trucks and are dyno testing each one before they ship them. They only have 2 dyno cells
@@timothybayliss6680 Thanks for the update
Yeah, I’ve been waiting for a long time for that one.
Patience Grasshopper.
It is almost like Detroit figured that turbos into blowers didn’t work in the 80’s. Gale is a good guy but he gets his ideas and runs with them which is why he is always behind the curve compared to other builders.
What the hell indeed!
Oh, man that mill looks like belongs in a mad max vehicle. All hail High King Gale Banks Maximus Testiclies, supreme ruler of of the Wasteland, and Grand Dragon of the Mystical Order of the Wrench.
Gale, please keep posting your video clips. I consider you the "Dali Llama" of diesel engines.
Get rid of the blower, or get rid of the turbos and try again. Simplify your build. make it do the same thing with less parts.
Blower adds snap to throttle..driver needs it..turbo adds even more hp but has lag.
Sift thru the vids..Brodozer is the client.
@@maccoman71852 I have nearly no lag in mine.
@@maccoman71852 A big and small combo should nearly eliminate the lag and get high boost numbers. I have a stock turbo on an 05 ram. It boost to 40 psi nearly instantly. I got rid of the back pressure, installed his air horn and a tune to achieve this. Max boost is 48, but its hard to get it there. 35 to 40 all day long with out even trying.
@@jasunsmith9136 for towing or street driving sure, but the throttle response they use for a monster truck is much quicker than even that. Also if you watch his other videos you'll see why he isn't chasing a boost #.
@@ChannelZeroOne do monster trucks have nearly no lag? Or no lag? The space they have and how they drive don't really permit ANY lag at all.
Mr Banks, How much boost do you want?
Gale- All of it!
You need a cam with less overlap. Just like with only the Supercharger, fuel mix is escaping the combustion chamber (aslo why you have so high turbine inlet temps). When supercharging an engine, you get a higher than atmospheric preasure (linerally to rpm) so it's just like running an engine in an atmosphere with higher preasure, but the exhaust still vents to normal atmosphere, mening the exhaust gets "sucked" out, anlong with some of the freash charge which is what you are seeing. I say keep the supercharger spinning fast and get a cam with less overlap and you'll see 1350 hp easy👍
Gale is brilliant. Even if you know nothing about engines, tuning, etc. His methodology is spot on!
Now THAT is a dyno run! That was the cleanest fucking compound charged diesel I have ever seen in my life...and it was damn near half a minute! If you were at full throttle for half a minute, that's MORE than a standing mile run right there! Would it be possible, in theory, to now design a screw blower that's specifically designed for compound charge setups?
Finished my 2 year degree
Got AED foundation certified on 12.4.2020.
Going for associates degrees in diesel technology 4 classes to go!! Hoping to walk in June 2021 !!
Been thinking about what to do with the screw supercharger, and what if the Whipple fed in to the turbos rather than dumping into the air cooler?
That's what they did on the Banks Freightliner Pikes Peak truck as well as a few other tricks. The coolers are useful to get the air going into the cylinders to be as dense as possible
Considering the design of that screw blower, i mostly would consider that a low presure pump, and most likley the pressure i escaping around the veins of the blower du to shaft deflection during higher boost.
Almost seems like the supercharger should be feeding the turbos, but the plumbing would be a nightmare.
I like your dyno run ( not just a flash) that is a real dyno run!!
i could have sworn when you showed the turbo piping set up that you had a by-pass already installed for the very purpose of when either boost from the turbo or temp was over superchargers limits
part 10.
Thank you for taking the time to share with us Mr. Banks.
He’s definitely right about blower first, and then turbos.
The floor pan was about to come off when he got those warning lights good thing they backed off
Hi Gale.
I think the work you do is incredible and I love R&D. I am in industrial refrigeration industry so pressure density and flow is my bread and butter.
We have done a huge amount of R&D with screw compressor’s over the last 8 years with the absorbed power and efficiency and the gas density. We found the biggest gains in the discharge port of the screws as intake density increases we would open up the discharge port more on the female rotor side to prevent over compression of the air absorb excessive power.
Best grandpa stories ever!!!
why not just have a diesel generator on that monster truck and turning the wheels with electric motors? Instant torque and all the good stuff...
Break out the super capacitors!
Or the high C rate lipo used by the R/C guys. 100 lbs of Turnigy 140C hardcase would cost ~$6000 and put out 900,000 watts for ~20 seconds. About 1200hp.
How about an apu.
A turbine apu would sound more interesting than a diesel genset, for sure.
@@ur_quainmaster7901 you could name the truck plane jane
@@ur_quainmaster7901 Turbine engines are annoying. Just a big blow of air. No character.
A torque transducer in the blower pulley would give some neat data. I have seen this done on a cam pulley.
When reading speed/ fuel consumption charts on boat test review articles i see a common fuel consumption number for Diesels. Most
Diesel boats us 5 +/- gph per 100 hp at full throttle. So a boat with twin 500 hp
Diesels ( 1000 hp total ) will consume about 50 gph. Twin 500 hp gasoline engines will burn about 80 gph at full throttle. Supercharged gas engines eat more because they have to develop power to spin the blower and they tend to be set to run rich for safety.
At one point Gale showed a bsfc number of over .600! That is a bad number for a gasoline engine. Diesels
typically are under a bsfc number less then .400
Can listen to this guy all day
details, details. it's all about the details and Gale got the details
In professional racing, sportscars, touringcars, prototypes, we usually go by "absolute intake pressure" since that's the metric the BOP usually uses.
If I'm understanding the data and what you have done, it seems that the blower is restricting the air inlet flow being after the turbos, as if its too small of inlet to the manifold causing back pressureon the compressor wheel. wouldn't it be better to compound a small turbo for fast spool on low end and bigger for top end? I know that none of the big manufacturers are doing this anymore, if I recall Cat and Navistar were the only ones to do this on larger engines but with terrible reliability results. I know cummins just reduced the size of the turbo for their large engines X15 for better power on the low end. I am very curious for next episode.
So the blower is absolutely a restriction and sacrifice to overall flow in return for instant volume of air for throttle response. A well thought out compound turbo setup can have minimal lag but if you look at monster trucks and how they drive that application won't work. They did use compounds in larger commercial applications however the shortfall there is they also typically require an exhaust brake. Mix that with large boost numbers and yes huge reliability issues result from massive backpressure. This problem can even arise from a single vgt turbo as well.
Two turning turbos and a lysholm. Wasn't that a song back in the day?😂 Mr. Banks you are awesome! We love the content!👍
When Detroit Diesel was looking for higher hp for pleasure boat high performance Sport fishing etc they went a similar route. DD 6-71 were up to approximately 300 hp with just the (needed rootes blower) to 410 hp with an added turbo, to 450 with an aftercooler to finally about 485 -500 hp with ever larger injectors. Don't know if they put a bypass valve on the 6-71. They went full tilt on 92 series engines with intercoolers. aftercoolers bypass valves and big injectors. The full tilt 8-92s put out between 750-800 hp in high performance pleasure boat ratings at no more then 2500 rpm. The commercial boat versions put out about half as much power at about 2100 rpms and could run for 10s of thousands hours. The high performance versions could get tired in a few thousand hours if not given a little TLC.
The Detroit Diesel hp race got it's boost from the factory building modified 6-71s for Vietnam river patrol boats. Then the various Detroit Diesel regional distributors went on
A hp race exceeding the official factory ratings for the same base engines .
180👍's up Mr Power thanks again for taking us all along with you for the rest of the story
Me taking an absolutely busted girl home from the bar: "lets bang this turkey"
Incredible tech quality, thank you!!!
maybe the supercharger is actually blocking airflow at higher boost levels? think like this: the SR71 engines were only jet engines up to a certain airspeed, then they switched to ram-jets because the immense airflow couldn't be handled efficiently by a jet engines compressor section, so the air was bypassed around the jet turbine section into a ram-jet section that didn't have the limitations of compressor blades getting in the way. maybe the supercharger rotors are just getting in the way of the charge air coming off the turbochargers? Maybe by slowing them down they give the boost off of the turbos more time to pack into the rotor as they rotate, physics dictates that even at a higher inlet pressure, the air can only fill the void in the supercharger rotors in only so many milliseconds and that there has to be a practical limit to how fast this can take place. I'd like to see Mr. Banks try out some electric boosted turbo's like Mercedes uses? I am curious how they could work as they're supposed to help eliminate turbo-lag. just some guess's though.
I am soooo waiting for the next video!
It from my point of view sounds like your charge air from the turbo is running between the supercharger blades. The slower you spin the supercharger the more air gets through. Move the turbo flow underneath the supercharger! So at higher engine speeds it makes the same wall that kept the charge from moving through!
Now someone needs to design a clutch for the blower drive pulley to disengage it once the turbos match blower boost pressure.