I absolutely love the way they begin this podcast; they aren't going to give you an answer, they are going to help you figure it out for yourself. The answer is different for every person. As usual another fabulous episode.
All great points. In the end, never should the hunter take a "let me see if I can make the shot" approach. Also, when you think about it, the time it takes to squeeze the trigger should be added to the time it takes for the bullet to reach its target. While you never want to slap the trigger, it can easily add another half second if not more to complete execution of the shot, all of which gives the animal time to move before arrival of the bullet.
Starting place maybe?… Take the range that you can go 10 for 10 at when at the range and cut it in half for shots in the field at game. Out of breath, adrenaline cranking, buck fever, poor shot positions…so many factors reduce accuracy in hunting situations. Just yesterday I passed on a shot on an elk at 150 yards because I couldn’t get steady enough resting on a serviceberry bush. Was able to crawl up to 115 yards to a better spot and use my shooting sticks from a seated position. A week ago I completely whiffed on an elk at 300 yards laying prone and steady on a rock…when I went to press the trigger I couldn’t feel my finger due to cold and botched the squeeze. In hindsight I obviously should have backed out of it and got my fingers thawed before shooting. Anything can happen in the field.
I laid out a 20 shot composite and measured on excel for my RPR in 6.5. 20 in just over .75”! I was stoked. And my zero hasn’t failed me since then. Thank you all for the knowledge!
That's awesome! These podcasts have been a game changer. I had to either eat my tag or shoot my buck prone with a 7 mph wind at 750 with my 6.5 PRC. Hit above the heart and he flipped over backwards. Definitely would have preferred a closer shot but was 100% confident because of these podcasts and the work ahead of time. Tasted delicious, just as good as my longbow kills😂
On deer I like a sub 0.6 second time of flight and a terminal velocity appropriate to the bullet design. Range changes depending on the cartridge and bullet design. On average this is 400m. Great vid, I help out on hunter ed and you guys cover everything I discuss.
Great episode. I definitely define my range by including. I zero at an indoor range. I will group no more than the 5 rd mag I have for my 7 PRC. In a chassis with a bipod on the table to mimick somewhat the tripod I use for hunting. I hunt on public land that is heavily forested and also has a few grassy meadows in places. Longest distance I have ranged for a clear shot is 225 yards. Most are less than 100 yards. So, I am usually seated on my camp stool with the tripod legs spread low and wide. I could keep walking. Or just sit and quit moving and let other hunters possibly move deer toward me. Given the chance, I will dry fire at least once, though it echos loudly in the trees. My preference is over a steep creek bed facing slightly down and the rising bank on the other side is the back stop, as it were. For those who think free-standing or off-hand shooting is easy, just dry fire in the house and see how much waver you have. So, I know I am only good for that at 50 yards and in, Little tip - start aiming over the animal and let gravity bring you to the spot but don't take too much time. The hardest part is to have a range or place where you can practice improvised positions, other than around the house with dry fire. I also agree that just because the 175 gr ELD-X in 7 PRC is over 1800 fps to just about 900 yards and impact velocity is my important consideration does not mean I should shoot that far. Quinlan brought up an important point. TOF or time of flight. That is 1.15 seconds. Enough time for an animal to move just enough that even if my original shot was going to get solidly into both heart and lungs, now it hit the gut or even hind quarter. I also have a .308 with other ammo that is over 1800 fps to about 450 yards but I call it a 300 yard gun and it is mostly me. I would call my 7 PRC good for a bit past 300 yards. Even with a solid table rest and truly relaxed and getting a spread of .64 inches for 3 rounds, that still must be considered for range. That is the dispersion with the least amount of twitching human interference. So, at the range, the front may be on bipod but the butt stock is against my shoulder as it is when I am hunting. For me, and any hunter, the cold bore shot is going to matter most. Because we are not shooting a few rounds before targeting the animal. We have sat there for how long. Or even hiked and now must set up a shot while still breathing deeply from the hike. Perspiration is up, pulse and blood pressure can be up. I do like to follow the real sniper rule which is, closer is better. Thanks to Hollywood, most people think that being a sniper is about being able to shoot an earlobe at 1,000 yards. It is not. It is about setting up for successful shots. Escpecially on a confirmed target, closer is better. This was better addressed in the movie "Clear and Present Danger." Willem Dafoe is putting together a special operations team and he needs a rifleman or sniper. They go to the course and one of the shooters rings the steel enough times near the judge's stand to finish the test. It is Raymond Cruz and he is inside 25 yards. He was asked how he got so close. Ray's character that he approached the target by being a sneaky bastard. That is a real sniper move. Close distance, aim small, miss small. There are people who have effectively brought down game at over 500 yards. The stories of people wounding animals is anecdotal, mostly. And a true outfitter is not allowing anyone in his group to get away with target practic on animals. But I relently asked one guy and pinned him down to an answer. What is the only ethical distance limit? He said 400 yards. Okay then, allow everyone only a .308 at 165 gr. Oh, wait, that violates the 2A.
Jokingly i say how could you guys forget the great Lanny Benoint of the north east? Just have the boys throw a few cans of beans in the air. And after he starts hitting those regularly, he's ready to go! 😊😊😊 On a more serious note, Nathan Foster is huge on shooting with a rifle sling! But i cant really blame you guys for not mentioning Ol'White Feather (Hathcock) who swore dry firing is king. Hornady won't make sales on dry firing....😅😅😅 But it would have been a great mention, as Desert Dog Outdoors just did a video on it. None the less good vid
Could you make 4DOF take all of these technical details (time, terminal vel., etc.) into account and recommend a maximum distance for the input conditions?
Car season has been extended by at least a month in the Mid Atlantic. So I’m still wrenching until it gets colder. Then I’ll crack out the hunting tools.
Great discussion. I would like to add one more consideration for wind. I have shot many many deer in the thousands. A realy useful trick i have use on windy days is to look at the forcast see what the maximum gust is and see what range that gust blows your round out if the ofthe kill zone. That is always a do not even try range. So say i was out after hinds and calves i would take the kill zone of a calf which is about 4 or 5" So my 6.5 at 2550fps is out of that sone at 350m in a 10mph wind. So at 10mph 350 is the range which i dont even contimplate it. Then probably knock 10% off that fir good mesure. Stronger wind or less efficient bullets will shorten that up even more. That way you dont NEED a win meater and if you use the max gust prediction then that allows a margin.
Something few people train on is vertical elevation change. I have made some vertical elevation change shots and missed some. I do have a rifle mounted EDM with vertical angle readout for reference. I haven’t engaged it yet with the 4DOF app. I plan to do that soon. In field artillery we used the term Angle of Site sometimes shortened to just Site to describe the elevation difference between the gun and the target. There was another term called Complimentary Angle of Site. This was the element used to account for the range effect of the vertical elevation difference. It’s not normally a big difference at small elevation differences and shorter ranges than the 15,000 meters we shot at, but it can make you miss your intended hit point enough to matter.
It's always interesting to me to hear different opinions and "absolutes", in my opinion, circumstances dictate everything. I'm not a big game hunter, just never got into it, much prefer varmints, which fall into smaller caliber setups, but the fundamentals are applicable. 17HMR to 300 yards on a calm day with practice, though I prefer to stick less than 100 yards with it. For further, I use my 17 Remington and 204 Ruger, both very effective on gophers and squirrels, and typically really flat out to 300. Grew up in North Dakota, few trees and always wind, so the old 22LR was a guestimate for what the hold would be. Been going to eastern Oregon for the sage rats, very similar, always windy in wide open high plains desert, learn the wind, learn your limitations, learn your system's strengths and limitations, and get comfortable being uncomfortable, being in the field is rarely like being at the range.
I am blessed to live within 45 minutes of a range I can shoot out to 1400 yards. I find it extremely satisfying to hit the target at those ranges and in. Would I shoot at an animal at those distances definitely not! Even with a Kestrel it can be difficult to allow for wind as the wind at your shooting position can be radically different from the wind at distance, every once in awhile I will have a first shot impact but quite often have to dial in for windage. I personally find that windage is not much of a consideration at 300 yards and in. Everyone has to set a maximum for what they can shoot with their rifle and equipment, I am comfortable to 200 yards but for a confidence factor I need good conditions to go any further.
I had multiple fudds at the last range I went to argue with me that with me that anything over 150 yards is unethical. Personally I am comfortable shooting out to 300. That’s how far the longest shot at one of the blinds I have available is, and I regularly practice at that range. At that range I know my 308 still has the energy, it’s in the velocity window for the bullet to expand at, and my rifle and load is consistently accurate at that range. I haven’t taken a shot that far on deer though. The furthest I have was at 180.
If you have the time to build a perfect firing position, then you probably have time to dry fire before you take the shot. It may help you decide if you can actually make the shot.
The bullet has to work at that "max" range, and the shooter has to work at that "max" range. If either of those two arent up to the task at that range.... the shot should be avoided. If you have established YOUR max range.... then get closer.
I like this conversation. Erik Cortina has the 1 moa shot on a deer target at 500yds and almost no one cane do it. With that said, If I am carrying the AR Grendel then 200yds is absolutely tops. But if I have the 300prc and a prone position is available and the wind is mild, 800yds are doable
I found some of the shooters’ self assessments in Cortina’s video interesting. Many of them say their personal ethical hunting range is still beyond what they literally just missed the target at under nearly ideal circumstances. It’s difficult to follow the logic in this.
I'm a Grendel guy as well, biggest limitation for me with that caliber is effective velocity at range. I'm curious what you use and what kind of velocities you get with what bullets. I have a 23 inch heavy barrelled 6.5 Grendel AR I use for varmint and predator hunting with 95gr V-Max's (looking to try the new ELD-VTs), but have yet to do anything practical with a 6.5 Grendel bolt gun
@DanielReyes-hz1qk 18" suppressed Left hand AR15 for my grandson. Leverevolution powder 123 grn SST . Only 2450fps. in winter temps and 2495 fps summer temps. It holds .7moa 5 shot groups summer and winter. Very safe load. Its money on my ranges 507yd mover also, but velocity, like you, keeps deer and pig shots close.
@rickschwertner282 Very nice! Thank you for the response sir. Is your grandson left handed? I'm a lefty but I've run standard ARs for 20+ years I don't want to have to re-learn. And sadly I'm in California so no suppressors and I have to use lead free bullets. I've not had any luck getting copper solids fast enough even in my 23 inch barrelled 6.5 Grendel. I've driven 129gr SSTs to over 2500 and my 95gr V-Max load with 8208XBR hits 2900fps with single digit SD and ES in the mid 20s. Right around that .7 MOA mark as well. My target load is a 130gr Berger over Vihtavuori N135, hits about 2400fps with similar ES and SD and groups in the mid to upper 6s MOA wise. I know it's lost favor but I still love the Grendel cartridge! Was thinking about getting a Grendel barrel for a custom rifle I built earlier this year just to play around with.
Falls in line with the Eric Cortina Ethical Hunter Challenge videos. 500yd one shot. Guys have to know their system and have the skill. Pretty black and white who does or does not fall into that category.
Very interesting. We need a round 2 on bullet expansion and penetration over a range of velocities. How can I determine if my bullet will exit? How do I figure that when picking a caliber and a bullet?
Irrelevant. What you need to focus on is making sure your chosen projectile expands in the middle (not near side or far side) of the animal's vitals, and transfers the maximum amount of its energy to the tissue (expands the biggest it can). Temporary stretch/hydraulic shock is what does the work. The rest doesn't matter. If you placed it properly, you will dump it, you don't need another 5 hours of trailing leaking trails.
400 yards is my hard limit (sometimes less depending on the rifle im packing) There are situations you can't get closer... you can try but they're going to bust you before you get a chance to re-engage. I've had people tell me things like "i shot a deer at 800 yards with my 22-250" but after they tell you their hold over and what not, there's no way it was 800 yards... Erik Cortina has the ethical hunter challenge.... those are always fun to watch
Minimum vs optimum bullet speed for expansion: I'm looking at the diff in terms of... Minimum ==> I'd certainly be willing to take a shot (provided other considerations also met) a whitetail presenting broadside but not a quartering-to shot on a "tougher" animal such as Elk or Oryx/Gemsbok.
It's funny I have never not been able to get inside 250 yards ,regardless of the type of terrain. And I don't have any special training or experience, I don't even hunt all that much.
Ok Fudd, how much western hunting have you done? Scenario, you have 30 antelope in a flat chickpea field 500 yards away. Let me see you get to 100 yards without spooking them. No ditched or terrain. No water holes or anything. I put in the work so I can make that shot 100% of the time so 500 sitting off the tripod is an ethical shot for me. Where as you probably can't shoot very well. Don't place your own limitations on others with more rifle skills.
Seth, Joe, Preston and Jayden, I have been a deep diver in all your podcast and have really enjoyed and appreciate the education I have aquired. I have worked for 12 years as an elk guide and always subscribed to the theory of if you can't get within a reasonable distance you aren't doing your job. My son drew a late any bull tag for a unit out here in utah. I had him tuned up on my custom 300 PRC with over 100 rds shooting out to 900 yards. Of course this was steel targets at well known distances and a strong familiarity of the wind and climate at our range. I watched this podcast before we went on the hunt and I made some really good decisions as to what I would consider a lethal shot that HE could perform. We found a herd of elk watched them for 2 days and made a plan. We set up in a great spot and we took lots of time dry firing and making him as solid as possible for a possible shot. When the elk finally appeared we had more than enough time to still dry fire and practice shooting the many smaller bulls and cows that were feeding in our direction. Then it happened as my son said "Dad thats a Monster" a very unique mature bull appeared at 790 yards. (past the distance I felt comfortable with) We allowed the bull to feed it took him 45 min to get to the opening that all the previous elk went through. We had an hour before dark and I told my son the bull had to get to the opening that was 600 yards out. A very slight breeze was hitting us in the face. All of the earlier elk were bedded and feeding below us at 320 yards. We didn't have all the time in the world but we did have an hour of daylight left. The Monster stepped into the 601 yard opening. I told my son to that we could take him but if he felt nerves, shaking or anything to take his time. Because of my 4 DOF i knew that the 212 gr ELDX had 2300 fps and 2580 flbs of energy at that distance. My son said i got this, squeezed the trigger aiming for a high shoulder shot. My son hit the bull exactly where he told the ELDX to go. 1 shot Kill! It was so satisfying to see all the rocket science that went into this success play out. I am Blessed to have the opportunity to have a very successful hunt with my son and a better understanding of the time and focus it takes to make this happen. I am so grateful for the time you spend on the podcast. Not only is this very educational I find them very entertaining. Thank you gentlemen and Keep it it up. I will send you a pic of my Hornady Tattoo when I get it :)
That's a very vague statement. What do you consider long range? Long range with my Winchester 94 30-30 and long range with my competition 6.5 Creedmoor are two very different things
If it's a distance that you haven't practiced at, with that rifle and that load... You probably shouldn't be taking the shot at game. I frequently shoot my hunting rifle out to 600. The rifle and cartridge is fully capable out to 1000 or more. But I don't practice enough at those distances to even consider taking a shot. 600 and in is my limit. Everyone's mileage will vary. But for the love of all things hunting... get out and practice.
Here's the thing, you have to know your limits. Most of the people complaining about longer shots wound just as many deer 300 and in. Because they don't train, don't understand ballistics, and are using an inferior bullet at distance. Until y'all get mad about people wounding deer with bows, spare me the bullshit. My limit is 600 if the conditions are what I want. If not I'll get closer or not shoot. Just because I can't do something doesn't mean anyone shouldn't.
Hey Guys Great podcast but you all need to ditch the helmets ... works in a floatplane helicopter ... Dave Clarks are a huge positive in my history ... But for this ... IEMs and decent wireless mics ... also need to clean up the audio ... not presently open engaging and in the room. Sounds like you are in a 70's box .... I realize that this is not your primary concern but it will bring clarity presence and will be more compelling to your audience. Forgive the criticism but I think you can lift this to another level.
I'm just here watching Fudds who can't shoot tell guys out west who can shoot they're not hunting. However these westies who can shoot don't have empty freezers😂😂😂
I put three deer kill videos on a facebook hunting site. One kill was a 926 yd whitetail deer that took 8 steps from impact and fell over dead. The second deer was 761yds and it ran approximately 30 yds and fell dead. The third was a 427 yd kill that dropped in its tracks dead!! The backlash I received from these kills was astounding. I was treated like a serial child killer!!! It was sickening how hunters acted towards me.
I’m with you. I posted a video of me shooting at 600 and half the comments are people telling me i’m unethical. Ethics, people: is taking a shot that is 100% within YOUR capabilities. If you’ve never shot past 200, dont know how minutes of angle scale at distance, or dont know how to adjust dials on your scope, you have no business 1: to take any shot longer and most importantly 2: telling those with the skills and practice (that you’ve neglected) to make longer shots that they shouldnt. Just because you cant do it does not mean someone else cannot.
Why do we always assume the worst of other hunters? I hunt archery every year. Always spot and stalk or still hunting. I am very confident in my hunting abilities/woodsmanship. However when rifle season starts I really enjoy the longer range type of hunting. It has nothing to do with my ability to get closer. I just enjoy glassing rough country and maximizing my odds of success with the ability to take longer shots. My only problem with the videos in question here is that some Hunters watch those videos and just assume they could make those shots without practice. Your own abilities dictate your range. Not the stuff you see on the Internet or your ballistic calculator.
If you have to dial, you’re too far. 200 yards zero and top of back hold will get you to 400 yards with most reasonably flat shooting cartridges. There’s absolutely no situation where you can’t get closer than 400 yards.
I shot a B&C Caribou in Alaska at 480 yards, couldn't get closer because it was on the other side of a Lake. Later we paddled our canoe across to retrieve it...
@@loganjordan68 the good ole canyon excuse. Give a man a rifle and he’ll start coming up with all kinds of excuses why they can’t get closer. Put a bow in their hands and they’ll magically figure out how to do it with enough experience. You can keep perpetuating the distance argument until you’re 5 6 700 yards out there.
🕵♂️ How Far Is To Far? If Your Not From My State, Then That is "To Far For You To Come and Hunt"! 🫣 Stay in Your Own D_amn State and Fix The Mess That You've Created - Through Hunting Conservation, Hunters Access, Habitat Improvements, Wildlife "Management", Gun Rights, and Hunters "Safety/Ethics"! 😡 Be The "Solution" and Not The "Problem"! 👨⚖️
🕵♂️ HORNEDAY, IF YOU CONTINUE TO PROMOTE "MORE TRAINING/PRACTICE" FOR HUNTING - INSTEAD OF LONG RANGE HUNTING - YOU'LL MAKE MORE MONEY AND ALSO SAVE THE SPORT! 😯 BE PART OF THE "SOLUTION" AND NOT THE "PROBLEM"! 👍 THANKS!!! 🫡
I absolutely love the way they begin this podcast; they aren't going to give you an answer, they are going to help you figure it out for yourself. The answer is different for every person. As usual another fabulous episode.
All great points. In the end, never should the hunter take a "let me see if I can make the shot" approach. Also, when you think about it, the time it takes to squeeze the trigger should be added to the time it takes for the bullet to reach its target. While you never want to slap the trigger, it can easily add another half second if not more to complete execution of the shot, all of which gives the animal time to move before arrival of the bullet.
Starting place maybe?… Take the range that you can go 10 for 10 at when at the range and cut it in half for shots in the field at game. Out of breath, adrenaline cranking, buck fever, poor shot positions…so many factors reduce accuracy in hunting situations. Just yesterday I passed on a shot on an elk at 150 yards because I couldn’t get steady enough resting on a serviceberry bush. Was able to crawl up to 115 yards to a better spot and use my shooting sticks from a seated position. A week ago I completely whiffed on an elk at 300 yards laying prone and steady on a rock…when I went to press the trigger I couldn’t feel my finger due to cold and botched the squeeze. In hindsight I obviously should have backed out of it and got my fingers thawed before shooting. Anything can happen in the field.
I laid out a 20 shot composite and measured on excel for my RPR in 6.5. 20 in just over .75”! I was stoked. And my zero hasn’t failed me since then. Thank you all for the knowledge!
That's awesome! These podcasts have been a game changer. I had to either eat my tag or shoot my buck prone with a 7 mph wind at 750 with my 6.5 PRC. Hit above the heart and he flipped over backwards. Definitely would have preferred a closer shot but was 100% confident because of these podcasts and the work ahead of time. Tasted delicious, just as good as my longbow kills😂
@ must’ve tasted better with that shot! Holy cow that’s far!
Jayden, thank you for the comment at 42:55 about unsupported shooting being limited to about 100 yards. That's eye opening for me.
On deer I like a sub 0.6 second time of flight and a terminal velocity appropriate to the bullet design. Range changes depending on the cartridge and bullet design. On average this is 400m. Great vid, I help out on hunter ed and you guys cover everything I discuss.
Great episode. I definitely define my range by including.
I zero at an indoor range. I will group no more than the 5 rd mag I have for my 7 PRC. In a chassis with a bipod on the table to mimick somewhat the tripod I use for hunting.
I hunt on public land that is heavily forested and also has a few grassy meadows in places. Longest distance I have ranged for a clear shot is 225 yards. Most are less than 100 yards.
So, I am usually seated on my camp stool with the tripod legs spread low and wide. I could keep walking. Or just sit and quit moving and let other hunters possibly move deer toward me.
Given the chance, I will dry fire at least once, though it echos loudly in the trees. My preference is over a steep creek bed facing slightly down and the rising bank on the other side is the back stop, as it were.
For those who think free-standing or off-hand shooting is easy, just dry fire in the house and see how much waver you have. So, I know I am only good for that at 50 yards and in, Little tip - start aiming over the animal and let gravity bring you to the spot but don't take too much time.
The hardest part is to have a range or place where you can practice improvised positions, other than around the house with dry fire.
I also agree that just because the 175 gr ELD-X in 7 PRC is over 1800 fps to just about 900 yards and impact velocity is my important consideration does not mean I should shoot that far. Quinlan brought up an important point. TOF or time of flight. That is 1.15 seconds. Enough time for an animal to move just enough that even if my original shot was going to get solidly into both heart and lungs, now it hit the gut or even hind quarter.
I also have a .308 with other ammo that is over 1800 fps to about 450 yards but I call it a 300 yard gun and it is mostly me. I would call my 7 PRC good for a bit past 300 yards.
Even with a solid table rest and truly relaxed and getting a spread of .64 inches for 3 rounds, that still must be considered for range. That is the dispersion with the least amount of twitching human interference. So, at the range, the front may be on bipod but the butt stock is against my shoulder as it is when I am hunting.
For me, and any hunter, the cold bore shot is going to matter most. Because we are not shooting a few rounds before targeting the animal. We have sat there for how long. Or even hiked and now must set up a shot while still breathing deeply from the hike. Perspiration is up, pulse and blood pressure can be up. I do like to follow the real sniper rule which is, closer is better. Thanks to Hollywood, most people think that being a sniper is about being able to shoot an earlobe at 1,000 yards. It is not. It is about setting up for successful shots. Escpecially on a confirmed target, closer is better. This was better addressed in the movie "Clear and Present Danger." Willem Dafoe is putting together a special operations team and he needs a rifleman or sniper. They go to the course and one of the shooters rings the steel enough times near the judge's stand to finish the test. It is Raymond Cruz and he is inside 25 yards.
He was asked how he got so close. Ray's character that he approached the target by being a sneaky bastard. That is a real sniper move. Close distance, aim small, miss small.
There are people who have effectively brought down game at over 500 yards.
The stories of people wounding animals is anecdotal, mostly. And a true outfitter is not allowing anyone in his group to get away with target practic on animals.
But I relently asked one guy and pinned him down to an answer. What is the only ethical distance limit? He said 400 yards. Okay then, allow everyone only a .308 at 165 gr. Oh, wait, that violates the 2A.
Jokingly i say how could you guys forget the great Lanny Benoint of the north east?
Just have the boys throw a few cans of beans in the air. And after he starts hitting those regularly, he's ready to go! 😊😊😊
On a more serious note, Nathan Foster is huge on shooting with a rifle sling!
But i cant really blame you guys for not mentioning Ol'White Feather (Hathcock) who swore dry firing is king.
Hornady won't make sales on dry firing....😅😅😅
But it would have been a great mention, as Desert Dog Outdoors just did a video on it.
None the less good vid
Could you make 4DOF take all of these technical details (time, terminal vel., etc.) into account and recommend a maximum distance for the input conditions?
Geo ballistics has an option like that. I wish 4dof had that and a mapping capability.
Car season has been extended by at least a month in the Mid Atlantic. So I’m still wrenching until it gets colder. Then I’ll crack out the hunting tools.
Great discussion.
I would like to add one more consideration for wind.
I have shot many many deer in the thousands.
A realy useful trick i have use on windy days is to look at the forcast see what the maximum gust is and see what range that gust blows your round out if the ofthe kill zone.
That is always a do not even try range.
So say i was out after hinds and calves i would take the kill zone of a calf which is about 4 or 5"
So my 6.5 at 2550fps is out of that sone at 350m in a 10mph wind.
So at 10mph 350 is the range which i dont even contimplate it. Then probably knock 10% off that fir good mesure.
Stronger wind or less efficient bullets will shorten that up even more.
That way you dont NEED a win meater and if you use the max gust prediction then that allows a margin.
Something few people train on is vertical elevation change. I have made some vertical elevation change shots and missed some. I do have a rifle mounted EDM with vertical angle readout for reference. I haven’t engaged it yet with the 4DOF app. I plan to do that soon.
In field artillery we used the term Angle of Site sometimes shortened to just Site to describe the elevation difference between the gun and the target. There was another term called Complimentary Angle of Site. This was the element used to account for the range effect of the vertical elevation difference. It’s not normally a big difference at small elevation differences and shorter ranges than the 15,000 meters we shot at, but it can make you miss your intended hit point enough to matter.
Great information shared, really enjoyed the perspective of everyone and agree whole heartedly.
It's always interesting to me to hear different opinions and "absolutes", in my opinion, circumstances dictate everything.
I'm not a big game hunter, just never got into it, much prefer varmints, which fall into smaller caliber setups, but the fundamentals are applicable. 17HMR to 300 yards on a calm day with practice, though I prefer to stick less than 100 yards with it. For further, I use my 17 Remington and 204 Ruger, both very effective on gophers and squirrels, and typically really flat out to 300. Grew up in North Dakota, few trees and always wind, so the old 22LR was a guestimate for what the hold would be. Been going to eastern Oregon for the sage rats, very similar, always windy in wide open high plains desert, learn the wind, learn your limitations, learn your system's strengths and limitations, and get comfortable being uncomfortable, being in the field is rarely like being at the range.
I am blessed to live within 45 minutes of a range I can shoot out to 1400 yards. I find it extremely satisfying to hit the target at those ranges and in. Would I shoot at an animal at those distances definitely not! Even with a Kestrel it can be difficult to allow for wind as the wind at your shooting position can be radically different from the wind at distance, every once in awhile I will have a first shot impact but quite often have to dial in for windage. I personally find that windage is not much of a consideration at 300 yards and in. Everyone has to set a maximum for what they can shoot with their rifle and equipment, I am comfortable to 200 yards but for a confidence factor I need good conditions to go any further.
I had multiple fudds at the last range I went to argue with me that with me that anything over 150 yards is unethical.
Personally I am comfortable shooting out to 300. That’s how far the longest shot at one of the blinds I have available is, and I regularly practice at that range. At that range I know my 308 still has the energy, it’s in the velocity window for the bullet to expand at, and my rifle and load is consistently accurate at that range. I haven’t taken a shot that far on deer though. The furthest I have was at 180.
I rarely get a shot over 100 yards at a deer here in northern Arkansas. Great video
If you have the time to build a perfect firing position, then you probably have time to dry fire before you take the shot. It may help you decide if you can actually make the shot.
The bullet has to work at that "max" range, and the shooter has to work at that "max" range.
If either of those two arent up to the task at that range.... the shot should be avoided.
If you have established YOUR max range.... then get closer.
I like this conversation. Erik Cortina has the 1 moa shot on a deer target at 500yds and almost no one cane do it. With that said, If I am carrying the AR Grendel then 200yds is absolutely tops. But if I have the 300prc and a prone position is available and the wind is mild, 800yds are doable
I found some of the shooters’ self assessments in Cortina’s video interesting. Many of them say their personal ethical hunting range is still beyond what they literally just missed the target at under nearly ideal circumstances. It’s difficult to follow the logic in this.
I'm a Grendel guy as well, biggest limitation for me with that caliber is effective velocity at range. I'm curious what you use and what kind of velocities you get with what bullets.
I have a 23 inch heavy barrelled 6.5 Grendel AR I use for varmint and predator hunting with 95gr V-Max's (looking to try the new ELD-VTs), but have yet to do anything practical with a 6.5 Grendel bolt gun
@DanielReyes-hz1qk 18" suppressed Left hand AR15 for my grandson. Leverevolution powder 123 grn SST . Only 2450fps. in winter temps and 2495 fps summer temps. It holds .7moa 5 shot groups summer and winter. Very safe load. Its money on my ranges 507yd mover also, but velocity, like you, keeps deer and pig shots close.
@rickschwertner282 Very nice! Thank you for the response sir. Is your grandson left handed? I'm a lefty but I've run standard ARs for 20+ years I don't want to have to re-learn. And sadly I'm in California so no suppressors and I have to use lead free bullets. I've not had any luck getting copper solids fast enough even in my 23 inch barrelled 6.5 Grendel. I've driven 129gr SSTs to over 2500 and my 95gr V-Max load with 8208XBR hits 2900fps with single digit SD and ES in the mid 20s. Right around that .7 MOA mark as well. My target load is a 130gr Berger over Vihtavuori N135, hits about 2400fps with similar ES and SD and groups in the mid to upper 6s MOA wise. I know it's lost favor but I still love the Grendel cartridge! Was thinking about getting a Grendel barrel for a custom rifle I built earlier this year just to play around with.
What kind of guys are doing the challenge. I know I could do it and I know a few other guys who can do it. 500 in Montana isn't that far.
1) point blank range / ammo and gun's cone of fire / shooter's aiming ability.
2) terminal ballistic performance.
Deer in Saskatchewan at 12 feet . Saskatchewan trophy moose shot at 6 feet. Antelope at 100 yards. Elk at 50 yards. Thats called hunting.
What's the definition of hunting?😉
East Coast hunting positions, standing, kneeling, supported/improvised.
Falls in line with the Eric Cortina Ethical Hunter Challenge videos. 500yd one shot. Guys have to know their system and have the skill. Pretty black and white who does or does not fall into that category.
7 prc because my max comfort distance is 300 yards and i want the deer laying where it stood.
zero at 100 and fine tune at 200. for my hunting i zero 1 inch to 1.5 inch high at 100 so im point blank out to 250 w certain rifles
Very interesting. We need a round 2 on bullet expansion and penetration over a range of velocities. How can I determine if my bullet will exit? How do I figure that when picking a caliber and a bullet?
Irrelevant. What you need to focus on is making sure your chosen projectile expands in the middle (not near side or far side) of the animal's vitals, and transfers the maximum amount of its energy to the tissue (expands the biggest it can). Temporary stretch/hydraulic shock is what does the work. The rest doesn't matter. If you placed it properly, you will dump it, you don't need another 5 hours of trailing leaking trails.
Forgot to mention when shooting count the fliers and misses on targets that adds to your effectiveness
400 yards is my hard limit (sometimes less depending on the rifle im packing)
There are situations you can't get closer... you can try but they're going to bust you before you get a chance to re-engage.
I've had people tell me things like "i shot a deer at 800 yards with my 22-250" but after they tell you their hold over and what not, there's no way it was 800 yards...
Erik Cortina has the ethical hunter challenge.... those are always fun to watch
Those EC videos are very interesting. KYL. How many people are not putting a centered hit on plate #1?
If an archer can get close, you can too.
@jasonweishaupt1828 if Jesus could walk to work... you can too.
@@jasonweishaupt1828 And yet, out of the millions of people hunting every year, the vast majority of wounded animal statistics come from archers.
Minimum vs optimum bullet speed for expansion: I'm looking at the diff in terms of...
Minimum ==> I'd certainly be willing to take a shot (provided other considerations also met) a whitetail presenting broadside but not a quartering-to shot on a "tougher" animal such as Elk or Oryx/Gemsbok.
Too many hunters out there now days who are treating a hunting trip to bag Bambi or Bullwinkle as a combat patrol in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Long Story Short - Quit trying to Snipe and get closer, Close as you can without spooking animal. CUT OUT Sniping! Be an ETHICAL Hunter!
Yes, I'm a hunter, not a long range shooter...
Those are not mutually exclusive terms
If you can make the shot, take it!
It's funny I have never not been able to get inside 250 yards ,regardless of the type of terrain. And I don't have any special training or experience, I don't even hunt all that much.
Ok Fudd, how much western hunting have you done? Scenario, you have 30 antelope in a flat chickpea field 500 yards away. Let me see you get to 100 yards without spooking them. No ditched or terrain. No water holes or anything. I put in the work so I can make that shot 100% of the time so 500 sitting off the tripod is an ethical shot for me. Where as you probably can't shoot very well. Don't place your own limitations on others with more rifle skills.
Happy birthday Seth what did you do in our beloved Corps?
Seth, Joe, Preston and Jayden, I have been a deep diver in all your podcast and have really enjoyed and appreciate the education I have aquired. I have worked for 12 years as an elk guide and always subscribed to the theory of if you can't get within a reasonable distance you aren't doing your job. My son drew a late any bull tag for a unit out here in utah. I had him tuned up on my custom 300 PRC with over 100 rds shooting out to 900 yards. Of course this was steel targets at well known distances and a strong familiarity of the wind and climate at our range. I watched this podcast before we went on the hunt and I made some really good decisions as to what I would consider a lethal shot that HE could perform. We found a herd of elk watched them for 2 days and made a plan. We set up in a great spot and we took lots of time dry firing and making him as solid as possible for a possible shot. When the elk finally appeared we had more than enough time to still dry fire and practice shooting the many smaller bulls and cows that were feeding in our direction. Then it happened as my son said "Dad thats a Monster" a very unique mature bull appeared at 790 yards. (past the distance I felt comfortable with) We allowed the bull to feed it took him 45 min to get to the opening that all the previous elk went through. We had an hour before dark and I told my son the bull had to get to the opening that was 600 yards out. A very slight breeze was hitting us in the face. All of the earlier elk were bedded and feeding below us at 320 yards. We didn't have all the time in the world but we did have an hour of daylight left. The Monster stepped into the 601 yard opening. I told my son to that we could take him but if he felt nerves, shaking or anything to take his time. Because of my 4 DOF i knew that the 212 gr ELDX had 2300 fps and 2580 flbs of energy at that distance. My son said i got this, squeezed the trigger aiming for a high shoulder shot. My son hit the bull exactly where he told the ELDX to go. 1 shot Kill! It was so satisfying to see all the rocket science that went into this success play out. I am Blessed to have the opportunity to have a very successful hunt with my son and a better understanding of the time and focus it takes to make this happen. I am so grateful for the time you spend on the podcast. Not only is this very educational I find them very entertaining. Thank you gentlemen and Keep it it up. I will send you a pic of my Hornady Tattoo when I get it :)
Well done guys. Well said. Ill say it tho. I dont care what guys have or who they are. They have no business hunting long range.
That's a very vague statement. What do you consider long range? Long range with my Winchester 94 30-30 and long range with my competition 6.5 Creedmoor are two very different things
Only thing I did is agree with is the zeroing process. A bit excessive
If it's a distance that you haven't practiced at, with that rifle and that load... You probably shouldn't be taking the shot at game. I frequently shoot my hunting rifle out to 600. The rifle and cartridge is fully capable out to 1000 or more. But I don't practice enough at those distances to even consider taking a shot. 600 and in is my limit. Everyone's mileage will vary. But for the love of all things hunting... get out and practice.
Here's the thing, you have to know your limits. Most of the people complaining about longer shots wound just as many deer 300 and in. Because they don't train, don't understand ballistics, and are using an inferior bullet at distance. Until y'all get mad about people wounding deer with bows, spare me the bullshit. My limit is 600 if the conditions are what I want. If not I'll get closer or not shoot. Just because I can't do something doesn't mean anyone shouldn't.
Quinlans' outside his corner....Blasphemy!
Hey Guys
Great podcast but you all need to ditch the helmets ... works in a floatplane helicopter ... Dave Clarks are a huge positive in my history ...
But for this ... IEMs and decent wireless mics ... also need to clean up the audio ... not presently open engaging and in the room.
Sounds like you are in a 70's box ....
I realize that this is not your primary concern but it will bring clarity presence and will be more compelling to your audience.
Forgive the criticism but I think you can lift this to another level.
Easiest person to lie to is yourself
First!
Question is are you a hunter or just a shooter who doesn't give a toss about the animal an wants bragging rights about a long shot.
I'm just here watching Fudds who can't shoot tell guys out west who can shoot they're not hunting. However these westies who can shoot don't have empty freezers😂😂😂
I put three deer kill videos on a facebook hunting site. One kill was a 926 yd whitetail deer that took 8 steps from impact and fell over dead. The second deer was 761yds and it ran approximately 30 yds and fell dead. The third was a 427 yd kill that dropped in its tracks dead!! The backlash I received from these kills was astounding. I was treated like a serial child killer!!! It was sickening how hunters acted towards me.
Shooting half a mile at a whitetail is unnecessary as fuck😂😂😂that's why you got backlash, you suck at every part of hunting except for one.
I’m with you. I posted a video of me shooting at 600 and half the comments are people telling me i’m unethical.
Ethics, people: is taking a shot that is 100% within YOUR capabilities. If you’ve never shot past 200, dont know how minutes of angle scale at distance, or dont know how to adjust dials on your scope, you have no business 1: to take any shot longer and most importantly 2: telling those with the skills and practice (that you’ve neglected) to make longer shots that they shouldnt. Just because you cant do it does not mean someone else cannot.
@@redacted2618 Ole sweetie, you are just jealous because you don’t understand ballistics well enough to take long shots.
There aren’t many ranges that go past 500, lotsa areas don’t even have ranges much past 300…so ppl have no idea what shooting ‘long range’ is.
Why do we always assume the worst of other hunters? I hunt archery every year. Always spot and stalk or still hunting. I am very confident in my hunting abilities/woodsmanship. However when rifle season starts I really enjoy the longer range type of hunting. It has nothing to do with my ability to get closer. I just enjoy glassing rough country and maximizing my odds of success with the ability to take longer shots. My only problem with the videos in question here is that some Hunters watch those videos and just assume they could make those shots without practice. Your own abilities dictate your range. Not the stuff you see on the Internet or your ballistic calculator.
Hawkeye fan.... Hell nah.. Go Cyclones!! (Ted Here)
So…Seth got jacked. My imagination or true?
Yeah Seth is lifting, got a new stache and arm sleeve.
That's what happens when you rock the handlebars!
In all seriousness though pump that iron Seth! 💪
When I can't hit them!!! 😂
If you have to dial, you’re too far. 200 yards zero and top of back hold will get you to 400 yards with most reasonably flat shooting cartridges. There’s absolutely no situation where you can’t get closer than 400 yards.
I shot a B&C Caribou in Alaska at 480 yards, couldn't get closer because it was on the other side of a Lake. Later we paddled our canoe across to retrieve it...
I was gonna say, somebody's never shot across water or canyons😂😂😂
The prairie I hunt invites you to get closer on wide open ground.
@@loganjordan68 the good ole canyon excuse. Give a man a rifle and he’ll start coming up with all kinds of excuses why they can’t get closer. Put a bow in their hands and they’ll magically figure out how to do it with enough experience. You can keep perpetuating the distance argument until you’re 5 6 700 yards out there.
@ when I lived in Nevada, guys would regularly kill speed goats and mule deer with bows in the flats. This is nothing new.
According to Carlos Hathcock.. there's no limit. Infinity was his.😊
🕵♂️ How Far Is To Far? If Your Not From My State, Then That is "To Far For You To Come and Hunt"! 🫣 Stay in Your Own D_amn State and Fix The Mess That You've Created - Through Hunting Conservation, Hunters Access, Habitat Improvements, Wildlife "Management", Gun Rights, and Hunters "Safety/Ethics"! 😡 Be The "Solution" and Not The "Problem"! 👨⚖️
🕵♂️ HORNEDAY, IF YOU CONTINUE TO PROMOTE "MORE TRAINING/PRACTICE" FOR HUNTING - INSTEAD OF LONG RANGE HUNTING - YOU'LL MAKE MORE MONEY AND ALSO SAVE THE SPORT! 😯 BE PART OF THE "SOLUTION" AND NOT THE "PROBLEM"! 👍 THANKS!!! 🫡