Outside of Bron Steph and KD, Jokic and Giannis are the only players who are worth considering in this conversation. They have the accolades and Stats to back it up. Embiid, Luka, Tatum are a tier bellow as of now but they got the potential.
@@djviper636I think he means it’s basically just going that extra mile and winning a chip. Also they both 2x MVP’s as opposed to 1x or 0x and Giannis also has a DPOY. So I think it’s just that they have the hardware to make a better case then the others.
@@_kaleemwillson yep basically what puts you in a top 15 conversation is playoff success, chips and maybe a couple more all nba selection and longevity. Talent wise, Iuka, tatum and embiid are already on par with some players on the top 15.
The revisionist history with the raps chip is hilarious to witness. Before klay went out the raptors were outplaying them. But now we gonna act like that wasn’t the case lol
Bro what Gianni’s wasn’t a star like luka was when he first came in and jokic put Luka on the bucks the nuggets 6ers and with him healthy there going back to back
I really don't get why seeemingly intelligent basketball analysts don't give Giannis and Jokic the credit they're due. Sure, Tatum and Doncic are great players, but they can't be compared to guys who have won multiple MVPs and have led their teams to titles.
Well to be fair we are talking about future projections, Giannis won his first title at age 26 year 8 Jokic 28 year 8 Lebron 27 year 9 MJ. 28 year 7 Hakeem 31 year 10 Shaq. 27 year 8 Luka is year 6 age 24 Tatum year 7 age 25 The only players who won early ages were ones drafted to teams with Hall of Famers along side them the first 1-3 seasons Duncan with Robinson Kobe with Shaq Kareem with Big O Magic with Kareem So not saying Luka and Tatum will make it but they still have time.
this is such a dumb comment if you know the history of the game most people dont win till around 26-28 Jokic & Giannis both won at 26 & 28 lebron won at 28 steph won at 27 Tatum & Luka are barely 25 give it time but they are definitely all time greats both have made it to conference finals or finals
Giannis and Jokic for sure have a shot. Top 15 is tough we're talking (in no particular order) Jordan, James, Russell, Chamberlain, Olajuwon, Shaq, Kobe, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Curry, Duncan, KD, Big O, and Moses. I can see Giannis and Jokic passing Big O and Moses... but the rest of those guys are hard to pass up. Maybe in 10 years Doncic and Wemby could be in the conversation, but that's a lot of legendary talent at the top.
it would be hard to. 13x all star, 4x scoring champ, youngest scoring champ ever, 2x champ & finals mvp, 1x mvp, 10x all nba, with a top 5 ppg average. And when its all said and done he will be top 10 scoring all time. Jokic and giannis started too late to beat that in my opinion.@@patrickporter4440
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 That was Bill Simmons' basketball pyramid top 15. I really gotta sit down and think of my own top 15. I'm biased towards centers though, Hakeem is my all time guy.
Jokic and Giannis have identical accolades. Both are 2 time mvp. Both are finals mvp. Both are nba champions. Giannis is a defensive juggernaut and Jokic is an assist savant. Both have advantages on each other. I mean this is an era of these two.
The problem with them is that the rest of thebleague is wack for the most part.. who has Jokic battled that's at his level? Embiid. That's it. No Yao, no Shaq, no David Robinson, no Hakeem, no Duckworth, no Ewing... list goes on. Only Embiid. Not top 15 if you don't have competition
@@jdfraed123that’s such a laughable statement. The league is FILLED with talent, just because the league isn’t Center dominated doesn’t mean Jokic doesn’t still have to go head to head with some of the greatest players in the game.
bam would be a top 10 mvp candidatre if jokic and embiid werent around, averaging 22, 11 and 4 on best team in the east? crazy centre numbers plus guarding 1-5 on the other end plus amazing rim defense. plus gobert and AD also HOF level centers. Heaps of competition for jokic and embiid @@jdfraed123
@@jdfraed123 Excellent point. I've always said that Kareem played against more hall of famers at his position than anyone in the top ten on the all-time scoring list.
I think Tier One is Jokic Giannis and Kawhi. First two are obvious, and if Kawhi somehow sneaks one more ring in and a FMVP with the Clippers (doubtful but, maybe) that becomes a really interesting conversation. He'd have to sneak in the top 20, maybe even 15. Unfortunately his career is more of a "What If" at the moment because of his injuries in the middle of his prime. Tier 2: Tatum, Luka. Tatum is already getting to finals and conference finals, don't know if an MVP will ever come his way based on his game and competition, so he needs FMVP's and rings. Luka needs a better team around him, at only 24 you'd hope they can retool the roster over the next 2-3 years for his prime and make some runs. The Kyrie trade doesnt seem to be a great fit but time will tell with a full year. Either way not enough talent with the right fit around him. Then there is everyone else.
This right here. I honestly wouldn't even place KD ahead of Kawhi. Kawhi has that "it" factor that KD has never seemed to have. It's too bad injuries have plagued him so much. He's one of the biggest "what if" stories in the NBA imo
@@zacht.9585confused this is the first comment mentioning Kawhi. He's been top 20-25 all time already Saying Embiid at this point is funny, haven't seen bro make it out the second round yet
@simple45679 ya I too was surprised no one else mentioned him. And agreed. Embiid has no business being mentioned in top 75 imo not yet at least. He certainly has potential to be top 25. Unfortunately injuries have plagued him. And I will say, that Kawhi game 7 shot was pretty devastating for his legacy. Just a few bounces away from an alternate story for both players. Right now, Jokic and Giannis are on another level given their playoff success. They too have that "it" factor. Their teams tend to punch above their weight, as opposed to Embiid's teams which tend to underperform.
@@zacht.9585 Yea, Kawhi and KD are close as it is now. If he wins one with the Clippers, there is no debate. Kawhi won with Russ and Harden while KD could not. And plus, if Kawhi retires as the all time winningest player by percentage, he's ahead of KD in my eyes, even without another ring. Currently, he's at #3, 73.2%. #2 is Larry Bird at 73.6% and #1 is Magic Johnson at an even 74.0%. He was #1 just a few years ago when he was with the Raptors.
His offense is literally just Run and Dunk. It doesn't always work in the playoffs especially against good defensive teams. They got lucky in 2021. BKN was injured and had terrible defense. Suns were below average defense too.
matters a lot is an understatement - You GOTTA be a killer on both ends. Curry ain't NO WAY a top ten player in history, a lotta guys above him, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, MJ, Shaq, LeBron, Hakeem, Kareem, Russell, so sure Steph is a top 15 , probably top 12 even but let's not get carried away
I'd love to hear you discuss the top 3 or 4 at each position who could play in any era over the last 40 years who could contribute to team success in various ways.
The problem with that is, who is to say all 400 players in the NBA wouldn’t have adapted their play style to the era you put them in? As the world goes forward, people go forward with it- it’s relatively ignorant to say people wouldn’t because we are all products of our environment. What we don’t know know, we don’t know.
@darealest2exist260 its pretty easy honestly. You take their current game and how they play, they skillset and try to transition it to different times and think on how they would fit compared to others. Obviously you dont go well if they played then they would worked out different did this differently or that differently. It will never be perfect way but the only way you can do it is to take what their game was like during they time
@@williamcroson7387That is literally what everyone is doing, when fantasising about players in eras. To think that any particular player would bring his game as is, to a separate point in history is just making sh up. There is no way to get realistic analysis, and never will be to that end. Only feels and opinions. The only real thing you can do is to compare how dominant, unique and inventive certain players were in their respective eras.
Luka is 24 and averaging 28 8 8 for his career and made first team all NBA in 4 out of his 5 seasons. He still has a lot of time to win championships and MVP's and I think if we talking about potential Luka is definitely the player I would choose to get into the top 10.
Its really hard to get multiple championships in todays League... I mean its always hard but there is a lot of talent spread all over the league... I think the amount of talent is higher than it ever was... so we have lots of teams with a superstar or multiple stars... but what we rarely have now are superteams that stick together and make it work like past iterations of the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Spurs, Heat or Warriors of the past... as good as Steph and LeBron are... they had a lot of help and stacked teams compared to their competition. Winning without that is generally rare but it gets rarer every year. Giannis got one and Joker got one without an all-NBA bei their side. Giannis couldnt repeat that success and it took him some time as great as he is... we will see about Denver. Took them a while to come together and overcome injuries as well... And no one is denying that those two are by far the best players of the current generation of superstars. To get the accolades players had decades ago will be incredibly hard without a superteam like the Warriors had.
It's easier today all you have to do is shoot 50%. THe other team will shoot 33% cause all they do is long half court shots. 50% beats 33% anyday and everyday.
@@cycleoflife565 they weren't stacked at all. 2022 was one of the least stacked title teams of all time. They won in 2022 mostly due to coaching... We now know Poole is very inefficient, they got the most out of that roster
The last point that RJ made is interesting, because there's never been a foreign player that's carried the league ratings-wise, but the best players coming up are foreign-born guys.
He's not there yet but Luka is well on his way. The fact that he is in this conversation at all and only 24 years old should tell you something. We will just have to see how it plays out in the years to come.
Agreed, people are far too focused on him being a 'bad defender', which is already no longer the case. The main issue he has is somewhat shaky freethrow shooting, being a bit of a ballhog and yapping way too much to refs. He has a good case for MVP , with how well he started this season.
@@juandelacruz3718 He is 24 and he hasn't played with a championship caliber team. Michael Jordan didn't make the finals until he was 28 even though he was putting up crazy numbers. Takes more than individual performance to get over the hump. Usually a players peak is around 27-29, so he still has time to prove himself. I mean Dirk didn't win until he was 33.
I feel like its destiny for Giannis to end up top 10, the storyline of his life, the dominance on both ends and a real chance at winning more chips/MVPs
Giannis probably won't get another MVP. They go for "narrative" quite a bit these days. In the last few years Giannis has been a distant third behind Jokic and Embiid. Now I understand Jokic being ahead in MVP voting, but how was Giannis behind Embiid each of those years? The sports writers have also been pushing Luka a lot in preseason writing a lot, even though he hasn't shown that he would make that jump.
Yea Kawhi for sure also I like when a player has 20 k points too and shows he was a high level player for awhile like Embid and Kawhi should have ALOT more points
BIG FACTS!! People always bring up that Zaza stepping into Kawhi when they were destroying GS by 25+ but everyone also forgets SA lost Tony Parker the series before and he ran the offense. The offense had to begin running through Kawhi and they STILL (without TP) we’re destroying golden state. He’d definitely have another Finals and Finals MVP under his belt, if not more
I believe kawhi is still top 20 two rings,2 finals mvp,3dpoy unlike curry he plays both sides of the ball at a high level the injuries really slowed down a trajectory nobody could imagine
Ok so a little tricky . The only players rn that are on the trajectory (other then Steph , kd , bron ofc) is jokic and Giannis. Now players that I see with the potential to get there is luka , Tatum , booker , Anthony edwards and then maybe about 2 more I’m leaving out . So other then Giannis and jokic it’s no clear cut tho on who will cement themselves as legends
You can't compare someone like jokic, who is a unique force we have never seen to someone like tatum who is very good, but is a talent we have seen plenty of times before. Jokic will easily be top ten all time and if he was American it wouldn't even be in question
@@kevinlakeman5043 don’t come at me talking crazy , once again you never know what will happen , if in 2013 someone said Steph over next decade would become a top 10 player of all time you’d probably laugh right? My point , I’m not banking on them doing it but those players are really good and I’d they start winning more I don’t see how that’s so insane to you lol , jayson Tatum especially the Celtics have been on the brink of dominating for years so if he starts winning rings his is more likely then booker and ant that I threw in .
@@pantrywarriors9577 sure we’ve seen the talent but I’m also banking on that he will eventually probably start winning rings so that combined with the talent is what could get him there . I for sure don’t think purely as a player he is unique or special as someone like jokic
The following are prototypes: MJ, Lebron, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, Steph, Duncan. Other greats aren’t necessarily one of one; ie Kobe is a MJ copy, so technically not a prototype. In the current and coming generation, Jokic and KD are the only other prototypes. Maybe Giannis. Wemby is getting that hype, but of course time will tell Edit: I’m sure I missed someone. Go ahead and fill in the gaps
Luka? He is unlike everyone else. Better passer than LeBron, his size, without the athletism, shoots better from every area of the court, more clutch, streaky like steph but more consistent. Has the craziest game winners in NBA history. Rebounds like Rodman
Agreed. The top 15 is getting harder and harder to crack. You really have to be a talented, accomplished, and an iconic generational player who adds something to the game overall. Jokic and Giannis are each headed for the top 15, but no one else comes close right now.
I think Luka can be up there with Giannis and Jokic with the right star alongside him and team which the mavs have shown to not be able to do at least this far into his career unfortunately
He will have to learn to share the ball. He is not the most efficient player so the fact that he needs the ball all the time is hurting Mavs championship prospects. His game is going to have to evolve significantly if he is going to enter that conversation otherwise he will just be another Melo or Allen Iverson.
Giannis and Jokic is the correct answer, but the next two are for sure Kawhi and Luka. Kawhi window is closing but if he wins another championship, might overshadow his lack of MVP’s. Luka still has a long road to go but he’s putting up all the numbers and seems on the right path with a long time to go.
I think a more interesting question is Giannis over KD all time? When his career is done, Giannis will have DPOY and a Finals MVP as the sole leader of his team.
Man are yall joking? Answer this question. Was giannis elite is whole career? The answer is no. All of these all time greats, off the rip were averaging 20 the rookie season!!! That’s all time great.
Top 10 all time is awfully hard to get into. Here are some guys: Jordan Lebron Wilt Russell Bird Magic Steph Duncan Kareem Kobe Shaq Olajuwon Big O That's 13 already. If Luka, Tatum, or Embiid are getting in there, they have some work to do. I think Giannis and Jokic are close; they're probably around the Moses Malone/David Robinson range, which is just under the guys I have above and has a few guys in it like Jerry West and some others, imo _(I think Giannis and Jokic are both above KD in terms of all-time greatness; KD is a slightly better scorer, but Giannis is a better defender and Jokic is a better passer, and both have more MVPs and more impressive title victories)._ Both have back-to-back MVPs and 1 title, for which they won, and absolutely deserved, finals MVP. Giannis also has a DPOY and Jokic has all the triple doubles and insane efficiency. To be clearly top 15 all time they need to separate themselves from other greats like Moses Malone, David Robinson, Jerry West, and others.
Jokic is better than Hakeem and O and it’s not even close. Also russell was a terrible offensive player which is hilarious when they say how bad jokic is at defense when Russell was worse at offense than Jokic is at defense also bills 11 titles had to go through 2 playoff series and 3 teams.
Jokic is far closer than people would like to admit. IMO he already is. He’s arguably had the best offensive peak out of any player in history and had an all time finals run leading the playoffs in points assists and rebounds
@@CoC_Lord joker needs longevity to be in top 10.. which we just need to give him time.. thats all he needs . Not that I think this will happen.. if I told u he's gonna be average for next 5 years... Is he still top 10? Many guys on that top 10 list have played at an elite level for quite a while.. we just need to let his career play out. This banter of how he's already there is kinda meaningless..
Outside of Steph Lebron and KD, Kawhi is knocking on the door resume wise but I feel like his clippers stint keeps him out of the top 15 unless he makes like 2 more ECFs. Jokic and Giannis are a lock as long as they keep on their trajectory for atleast 5 more years. Tatum has to breakout and be the clear cut best player in the league at some point and I just don’t see that happening. Embiid too.
@@P4P5 lol pick one specific thing to point out. If you watch their games, you know damn well he does not play good defense. I live in Dallas and see every game. Some of you just like him so you defend him blindly
Looking to put young players in the top 15 is extremely unlikely and a little disrespectful. You got: MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Russel, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan. Then you got: Hakeem, Steph, KD, Wade, Giannis & Jokic. That is already 16 players. There is no one that can squeeze in there right now. Especially Giannis and Jokic still have prime years ahead of them. I am going to assume one of them is going to win 1-2 more championships before retiring.
you didn't watch, they're not looking to put young players in the top 15 it's a hypothetical discussion about who could potentially make the top 15 by the end of their career no one is trying to say they're currently above some all time greats, in fact they were very respectful and gave props
Yeah super disrespectful. They always try to do this. I remember when people were doing this with Derrick Rose, or even guys the caliber of Brandon Roy.
I watched the clip. Even by stating they have the potential to get into a top 10-15 of all time is crazy. It means by the end of their career, they have to be better than the people already in them. I don't see anyone with that potential apart from Giannis, Jokic, Steph and KD from current players. Do we really think Tatum, Embiid and Booker has that potential after some of their playoff performances?@@_WeDontKnow_
It’s starting to get wild how much people are ignoring and disrespecting jokic. He was literally a passing thought here. In America we like fake wrestling way more than real sports fighting so I suppose it makes sense that we like style over performance
First off, what did pro-wrestling do to you. Secondly, he was a passing thought because they all agreed, are they supposed to argue who's supporting him more.
@@Victor-vf4tl lol nothing man im just saying americans enjoy the entertainment sometimes more than the outcome. Wrestling of all kinds is cool no hate here
.... They literally all said he and Giannis are the clear answers, what about that indicates that he's a passing thought? Lol. The discussion was around Tatum, Luka, Kawhi, etc.
Thing with Kawhi is that 2019 playoff run where he averaged 30 and beat that many future HoF on the way to a chip with no HoF level teammates was insane! I can’t think of 10 guys you could plug in and achieve what he did that year.
Kawhi did in 2019 pretty much what Dirk accomplished in 2011, they are in the same vein of championship runs. I would still rank Dirk above Kawhi all time.
@@steviechampagnethat's tough for me since i grew up watching dirk and that fadeaway but then with kawhi i love the way he plays when "healthy" and he won more chip.
@@PaulJosephTan Dirk is also the #6 All-Time scoring list and he was essentially the first 7 footer ever to be a sharpshooter from anywhere on the floor. He is the prototype Kevin Durant and truly changed the game.
@@steviechampagneLebron and Dwade weren’t injured in the finals when Dirk won. It’s not comparable. KD came back and was cooking Toronto but then went out for good. If the warriors were healthy they would have washed the Raptors.
Nope. You guys do not understand longevity. Giannis might be a bit closer, but Jokic isn’t even a top5 center yet. If they retired today, neither one is close to top15. They won’t have enough counting stats, and that matters along with your other accolades.
@@JonathanHarveygoat2009 Aight Wade in top 15 is one of the wildest takes I've seen. Kawhi in top 15 is up there with wild takes too when he hasn't done much in the regular season and has had only 1 dominant post season run as the top dog. Bird outside top 10 is also wild considering Bill is not in your top 10, but I can see some people putting him there. So who's in the top 10 if you have Bird, Bill, and Curry outside the top 10?
@@waillachab284 How very convenient that his championship is deemed lucky. Please tell me which weaknesses do we see in him that aren’t already seen in some of the consensus top 15 players of all time?
@@waillachab284 Injuries are apart the game. it happens. Almost every, if not every, championship had players injured throughout the playoffs. quit being dense
@@trathagoat1756 he got the suns in the final 🤣🤣🤣🤣every good team in the west was dealing with injuries and without mentioning The Nets So stop it The luckiest championship in the past 70 years in any sport
In the league right now as it is right now 5 Lebron KD Curry Jokic Giannis. Outside of this if these players I mention do it at a high level for at least 10 to 15 years win a few and become more dominated and talented and have accolades which seem harder to get with the media and favoritism etc than they will be in the mix for sure.
Jokic and Giannis already have a legitimate shot. Too early for players drafted less than 5 years, but Luka already defies that, so he will likely end up in the convo if he continues with his career progression and he actually wins awards and at least a chip or two... the other person that would have been if not for an injury-ridden career is Kawhi
Hate to say it. Out of the 5 PF gods: TD, KG, Dirk, Malone, and Chuck, only TDs spot is secure. Giannis's resume is absolutely filthy: 1 ring, 1 fmvp, 2x mvp, 1 DPOY. Its a tough conversation to have, but one of those 4 guys is getting bumped off.
Giannis only won a ring because the entire League was injured though. Ended up barely beating out a Nets team with only KD, a Hawks team that had no business being in the ECF after Phily choking, and a Suns team that also only vsed injured teams on their way to the finals and also had no business really being there. Giannis' ring is a bigger asterisk than Lebron's in 2020.
Giannis and Jokic might end up in the Top 15 0r 20...Those 2 guys can probably get at least 3-5 Championships and Finals MVPS...Different set of Playing Styles that can win
@@nebojsabozic2146 Jokic wont win more than 3.The parity in the NBA is crazy. There are many great teams that will have to share championships. The era of repeating and three peating is over which you need to get to 4-5 rings
It's implied. Giannis is nowhere near Jokic in offense. He's an MVP because he's elite on defense and good in offense. Jokic is elite on offense and good in defense (yes, he is, watch the playoffs and stop looking at blocks highlights).
Tatum is a CLEAR talent and/or production tier below Jokic and Giannis. Luka is the only other ATG level player when you're talking about who has a chance to enter the pantheon imo. Embiid and Kawhi are simply not consistent enough producers. A sneaky name that they did not consider (given a player like Tatum was mentioned) is SGA. If the Thunder realize their full potential and he ends up with a couple Finals MVP's as the leader of a perennial contender for the next 4-6 years while putting up ~30/5/5 with ELITE efficiency as a 2 way threat, that's a name who will skyrocket up a list like this.
Exactly. People mention the chips and loyalty, easy to be loyal if you have everything given to you. The 2019 chip without KD and Klay was basically Kawhi vs. Steph one on one, we saw how that match up ended.
Luka and Tatum have to prove it this season. They're short on something all top 15 players have: individual hardware and rings. Luka's in year 6 now and Tatum's in year 7. Giannis, Jokic, LeBron, and Curry won their first of two consecutive MVPs in year 6. KD won his only MVP in year 7. The clock is ticking for Luka and Tatum.
we have to start lowering the value of an mvp though to be honest. With so much talent in the league you have to have just an absurd year to win mvp especially with jokic averaging a ridiculously efficient almost triple double. I think Tatum has already proven himself with all his playoff success. Luka on the other hand hasn't done anything in the playoffs outside of 2022. We should absolutely value playoff success over mvps at this point.
Jokic: the way hes hobbling while running, it seems like his body will give out or he will retire early. He’s literally running around like Dirk in his last year. His skillset is there though to be top 15. Tatum: Seems like he lacks body control. His movements are so linear for a wing. Luka plays no defense. His game seems like Euro Harden but better. I think the only chance is Giannis because of his talent and heart. If he develops something other than bulldozing to the basket on offense then he’s reaching top 15 easy.
Tatum doesn’t belong there. Just bc he and his team of one of the best, most versatile, supporting casts in nba history, make a lot of deep playoff runs doesn’t mean he’s in the top tier of players individually. He’s not. He’s in the third tier. And no one who peaks at that level of player ever becomes a t20 player of all time. Tatum would have to make a big jump. When Giannis was Tatums age, he was winning his 2nd mvp and was arguably the best player in the world. Tatum is like a t10 player in the world, t6 if you wanna be generous to him and down on some other guys. Boston media tries to force him into these conversations but he’s not at that level
@@nycat666 Not really , Luka’s style of play doesn’t allow his teammates to have success , unless he sacrifices his own numbers which won’t happen because he only dominates the offensive side of the game
I think the last RJ take is tricky, because LJ and Steph are charismatic, iconic superstars, which has a lot to do with these audience numbers. But Tim Duncan has a resumee as good or even better than Steph's, and he never had that aura. I sense something similar about Jokic. I can see him winning multiple rings and FMVP, but I think he will never be an audience raiser like LJ or Steph (with the Denver Nuggets at least).
@@hardwoodthought1213Duncan’s resume dismantles everyone outside lebron and mj..so what’s ur point? U mad cause Steph better than Duncan without the defense lol..Duncan could never win 73 games In his life
@@jessicagalvan3358 Lol, you’re deluded. Steph isn’t close to Duncan. Duncan was the best offensive player on double the title teams Steph was whilst being the best defender alive. Your man losing awards to bench players and being hunted on defence 😂😂😂😂 Needed to call another MVP to get the job done. Duncan won 4 titles without even an All-NBA a teammate by his side, no other player in history won more than 1 without that.
@@hardwoodthought1213 when ur 6”11 u don’t need anyone..and this man said the best offensive player lol..I’m done dog..u Ididot men just like to talk..fucken regards
I think right before this they were talking about the future of the league post Lebron/Steph so it felt much more natural bringing up this topic. The clip alone though just makes it seem like an ESPN segment 😭
Tatum and Luka haven't done much yet jokic and Gianni's for sure. Both have championships and MVPs they should be automatic.darkhorse pick chet will have better career than wemby
Luka hasn’t done much? Ok please tell me 5 players from age 19-24 that has shown the talent that Luka has? Are we forgetting that he’s averaging 32ppg in the playoffs and is currently 24 rn, has a playstyle that is not reliant on athleticism so he can do this for a whileeee
@@getmoney3806this. Eventually, his individual records will matter less and he’ll need rings. You need counting stats for the legacy especially when you have similar ring amounts to other players long term. But Rings are ultimately what separate you from top50 to top15. Easy example: Barkley probably jumps up 15-20 spots all time if he gets a ring. That simple really.
Chet is just lucky he got drafted by OKC a great team with arguably a top 10 guy in Shai. Down the road I think the Spurs will try to make trades to help Wemby. Remember that LeBron won his first ring at 28 so Wemby still has time
In general, following people are considered top 6-10: Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt They all have multiple championship along with 10+ All NBA. Has more than 1 FMVP (Except Wilt as there was no FMVP in 60s). They all have longevity. Giannis / Jokic already has 1 FMVP and 2 MVPs so they are definitely on the pace of getting there. Couple more rings and longevity will definitely put them around 10-15. They can definitely edge KD (I'd say, they already edged KD) if they have more longevity and even Steph.
Luka & tatum have zero mvps and zero rings. Embiid has 1 mvp and no rings not even a ECF apperance. Stop throwing their names in with Jokic & Giannis smh. It's not even close.
It’s players who can potentially be top 15 all time , so a projection, Tatum and luka (I believe more of Tatum due to team success) should be in that conversation
@@juandelacruz3718 WTF you talking you about? Yoy mean like when they went 7 games without Middleton in the playoffs and Giannis became the only player in history to put up 200 100 and 50 in a 7 game series? 😂. Grown folks talking ball, go lay your dumb a** down.
All Luka needs is a championship he will be 1 And Tatum will be hard with the team around him he needs at least two chips imo and I don’t think he can do it They seem to have a knack for choking
Tatum is really good, but i just don’t trust him to show up the same level Lebron, KD, Steph, Jokic, Giannis do. Maybe they can grab a championship, but i think tatum is a phenomenal no.2 . Is that a crazy take ? 😭
I think he for sure has the talent and skill set, but I just don't trust him to get it all the way done as the number one. That feeling before a series or a big game where we know lebron is going to show out, or we know curry is going to have a good game, i just dont get that same feeling with tatum. Maybe im delusional, but im just explaining a gut feeling I get @@mockgriftclowns6729
I honestly think Luka is the only one besides Giannis and Jokic who can one-up the likes of Kobe etc. Don't think Giannis or maybe even Jokic can get to that level. Luka always had to work with a G-league or a dysfunctional roster. He's still only 24 while Giannis is 29 in a couple of weeks. When the athleticism drops, Giannis won't be as effective. Luka on the other hand, has potetial to historic if he has a right team and sorts his health issues. Both Giannis and Jokic were nowhere near Luka at his age.
Giannis won an mvp at 24 and luka turns 25 in February. Giannis won a chip at 26. Luka turns 26 the next nba season. Do u see luka winning a chip in the next two szns with this roster?
My bad 26* but yeah Luka still has time "28-32" are considered you're prime years plus Giannis won in his 8th season this is Luka's 6th year if he wants to match Giannis trajectory he still has this season and 2 more and who's to say he can't win before that @@George-u4i
Respectfully Tatum and Luka hasn’t done enough YET to be mentioned alongside guys like Giannis and Jokic who to me already have top 25-35 careers when you really look at what they’re doing and the records they’ve both broken
The whole conversation is about which players are on an all-time great path potentially, if their production and accomplishments continue and grow. They were pretty clear about this in the video.
Jokic and Giannis are prolly already top 30 or so. So with one more ring and 7 or 8 more All-NBA level seasons they both will be top 20 easy. Then I would say Luka and Tatum need at least 2 or 3 chips along with some MVP’s and another decade of all nba stats to crack the top 20
1. Jokic ceiling goat debate with LeBron and MJ. 2. Giannis ceiling top 10 definitely not top 5. 3. Luka ceiling top 10 but if he never wins a title might barely make top 25 4. Wembenyama still has goat conversation potential but way too early to predict that. 5. Long shot but SGA and Holmgren may be the next dynasty that wins 3 plus titles and the better of the 2 might be top 15 conversation after that. Tatum has won so much so far, and he’s in a situation that could also win multiple titles but personally I feel he’s just a tier below as a talent.
All of the advanced stats for all time it’s Jokic , MJ and Lebron at the top of the list. People don’t realize how ridiculous it was last year to average 30ppg 13rpg 9.5 assist on 55/45/80 shooting splits in the PLAYOFFS..He’s not as bad on defense as people say because they’re trying to discredit him.
@@juju-vl7oj People don't just rank on advanced stats, especially when 99% of NBA fans don't have a single clue how the stats are calculated or why. AD has the 4th highest PER of all time. David Robinson the 6th in PER and 5th in BPM. No one who's followed the NBA for a long time has either AD or Robinson even sniffing the top 20 all time let alone anything better. NBA isn't baseball where stats have held far more favor than winning. Not only that advanced stats can't be calculated for every historical player either. Jokic, right now, has absolutely no argument for GOAT. None. Bron didn't even have an argument for GOAT until his 3rd ring, and even then, it was weak. Wilt, the stat record king, is left out of the GOAT convo cause he didn't win enough. Kareem, who has the same argument as Lebron for GOAT only has more accolades, doesn't get much love as the GOAT. Jokic even being projected ceiling as GOAT with only 1 serious playoff run is the peak of fanboy delusion.
Giannis and Jokic are the list. Maybe Luka but I don't think he's getting there in Dallas. Embiid has to like... make a CF before even being in the discussion, come on.
I’m a biased timberwolves fan but I genuinely thinks it’s possible for Anthony Edwards to reach these heights. Not saying he’s there or that he will get there but it’s possible
Throwing Embiid's name in that conversation is bananas. A guy who was in playoffs 6 times and best he did was conference semis (with in some years a good team)
I would say Giannis for the defense, ultimately it is a 2-way sport. But I look at Steph and he is clearly a top 10 ever player without being a good defender, that's because the complete revolution of the game he anticipated and for being the best shooter ever. If you don't consider D in that, I think Luka has clearly the talent for being top 10 ever, he needs a good team career. And obviously Joker, but I don't think he will play long enough and be consistent long enough to get into that conversation. This joker for 10 straight years? Probably top 5 ever, not 10, but I see him getting old really fast
Why do you think, jokic will age quickly? His game revolves around being a basketball genius thats 7ft, doesnt rely on athleticism for much at all. Unless basketball becomes a contact sport and joker gets cte, i struggle to see where youre coming from
@@spidle2653it's not about Jokic not being healthy to play for a long time. It's about him potentially retiring early. His own choice to leave the game behind and live in his country with his family and do the other things he loves. I definitely wouldn't knock him for wanting to do that. But it would definitely alter his place in all time conversations. Especially with the longevity that guys like LeBron, curry, KD, etc, have began setting as the norm for modern players
@@MadeByIsmael yep, kinda what I meant. Joker is really unpredictable, I'm not gonna be shocked if in 5 years from now we don't even know where he is and what he does
@@arnellsmithEdwards average 31ppg in the playoffs on 60%TS against nuggets last year while averaging 2 steals 2 blocks. Defense matters. Ant is also almost 3 years younger than Luka.
@@kingdinodragonite3470 Ant is also too young to consider. How do we know he wont just end up having a career like Blake Griffin, John Wall or Demarcus Cousins?
@@joedagg4495 he ain't injury prone and he can shoot. Plus he has the highest on-off in the entire league at +22 while being a great playoff performer.
To me the only player right now is Giannis that should already be T20 AT and sniffing T15, ESPN ranked him at 18 on the NBA 75th Anniversary Team(even though officially the members of the team are unranked). Think about this not only is he the 3rd player ever to win MVP and DPOY in the same season, he has been unanimous 1st Team All NBA in each season since the '18-'19 season. Only 2 other players have one unanimous selection during this stretch; Harden in '18-'19 and LeBron in '19-'20 no one else has been a unanimous selection, not Jokic with his 2 MVPs or Embiid with his MVP last season. He is the only player in the last 50 yrs of the league that has been a unanimous selection 5 yrs running. He's also made an All Defensive Team every year since '18-'19 except last season (had it been position-less like this season will be he would have; he had 60 pts to Dillion Brooks and Bam's 54 and 53 pts so he would have been 2nd team AD for '22-'23). So he's a top 2 way player. If he gets another title, and a few more 1st Team All NBA or All Defense he will easily be top 15 All time.
i don't see how giannis and jokic are in the "what if" conversation still. i don't think it's unreasonable to already have both of them top 20 with what they've done
Luka is much better than giannis. Much smarter, way more skill, better leader, courtvision much better, potential much higher. Giannis had a lucky year, kawhi too - too much injuries on other teams that year. Still Lebron and Steph are the only all time players since Kobe.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Giannis and Jokic. Think Luka will have a great chance as well
Luka isn't in his true prime yet, but he's on the brink of it. He's still getting better each year. I think Luka at 26+ will truly be unstoppable.
@@cryptidian3530I disagree. Luka is already prime. He had a 60 20 10 game bro.
@@cryptidian3530to your point,I assess that Luka hasn’t reached his “peak”. Which is bad news unless u love the mavericks
@@cryptidian3530he’s worse this year he’s not even scoring at the rim
Luka might never win a championship.
Outside of Bron Steph and KD, Jokic and Giannis are the only players who are worth considering in this conversation. They have the accolades and Stats to back it up.
Embiid, Luka, Tatum are a tier bellow as of now but they got the potential.
That's a good point, whats the difference between considering them in conversation and potential? Have a good day!
@@djviper636I think he means it’s basically just going that extra mile and winning a chip. Also they both 2x MVP’s as opposed to 1x or 0x and Giannis also has a DPOY. So I think it’s just that they have the hardware to make a better case then the others.
@@_kaleemwillson yep basically what puts you in a top 15 conversation is playoff success, chips and maybe a couple more all nba selection and longevity. Talent wise, Iuka, tatum and embiid are already on par with some players on the top 15.
The revisionist history with the raps chip is hilarious to witness. Before klay went out the raptors were outplaying them. But now we gonna act like that wasn’t the case lol
Bro what Gianni’s wasn’t a star like luka was when he first came in and jokic put Luka on the bucks the nuggets 6ers and with him healthy there going back to back
Luka has legit made 4 first team all nbas in his first 5 seasons… he is assembling a legendary resume as we speak
But you have to be honest he isn’t with Giannis and jokic more so has the potential
@@gravy7414not yet but he’s also only 24, by the end of his career Luka will definitely have a shot if he keeps up this pace
@@Liam11433 yup
LMAO Tatum is better than Luka, Luka hasn't achieved anything other than getting bounced in the playoffs. Luka is just a media darling
@@juandelacruz3718and tatum achieved?
It’s a damn shame Kawhi has dealt with injuries because when he’s healthy he’s absolutely in the same tier as KD
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@JohnnyJay81 i hope ur not laughing bc u think its outrageous. Kawhi is a monster. Before Zaza he was whooping the warriors
@@JohnnyJay81Bro doesn't know basketball 😂 Kawhi if he wants cab give u 30+ like KD but KD can never defend like kawhi😂
If Kawhi can bring a chip to the clips this year he most definitely surpasses KD on the all time list no debate
Better than KD any day. He did what KD can’t do with the Raptors
JJ tried to sneak EMBIID on the all time great list 😂😂😂😂😂
He can 😂
Nah, JJ just knows ball unlike you lmao
I usually get annoyed with ranking Embiid that highly-but it's okay to bump up your personal friends.
He said potentially
@@iwengrinewgrin he's obviously biased towards his former teammate
Jokic easily.
He has some of the best adv stats of all time, rivalling Mike and Wilt
Hell no just got lucky in the playoffs, everybody was injured, played 3 play-in teams and got carried by Jamal Murray
Rivaling Bron, wilt and mike*** Bron has the most records out of all of em
And lebron RS00010. If your naming stats can’t leave one of the all time leaders dude. Come on
No way you’re not trolling
@@Imunderthewater45778why are you blaming them for getting No.1 seed ? Blam the Celtic for choking against heat.
It’s Jokic and Giannis. I’m tired of having Tatum and Luka’s names being thrown in this mix when they haven’t won anything yet.
Luka hasn’t had a team anywhere near good enough yet has performed at a high level in the big games.
I really don't get why seeemingly intelligent basketball analysts don't give Giannis and Jokic the credit they're due. Sure, Tatum and Doncic are great players, but they can't be compared to guys who have won multiple MVPs and have led their teams to titles.
I think if Tatum wins 2 chips he’s an all time great , he did make a finals tho
Well to be fair we are talking about future projections,
Giannis won his first title at age 26 year 8
Jokic 28 year 8
Lebron 27 year 9
MJ. 28 year 7
Hakeem 31 year 10
Shaq. 27 year 8
Luka is year 6 age 24
Tatum year 7 age 25
The only players who won early ages were ones drafted to teams with Hall of Famers along side them the first 1-3 seasons
Duncan with Robinson
Kobe with Shaq
Kareem with Big O
Magic with Kareem
So not saying Luka and Tatum will make it but they still have time.
this is such a dumb comment if you know the history of the game most people dont win till around 26-28 Jokic & Giannis both won at 26 & 28 lebron won at 28 steph won at 27 Tatum & Luka are barely 25 give it time but they are definitely all time greats both have made it to conference finals or finals
If Jokic gets another MVP this year then heck that’s already an awesome resume.
Another championship matters way more than another MVP tbh.
Last MVP was undeserving. Jokic was the clear MVP and everyone knows it.
@@nosrellomtrue but MVP and a WCF or Finals appearance makes him cemented top 15-20 same with Giannis yall forgetting about my boy💯🦌
Jokic putting up stats but they losing without Murray. Just like a few years ago. They won't give him another mvp like that again.
Jokic has 3 mvps already.
Giannis and Jokic for sure have a shot. Top 15 is tough we're talking (in no particular order) Jordan, James, Russell, Chamberlain, Olajuwon, Shaq, Kobe, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Curry, Duncan, KD, Big O, and Moses. I can see Giannis and Jokic passing Big O and Moses... but the rest of those guys are hard to pass up. Maybe in 10 years Doncic and Wemby could be in the conversation, but that's a lot of legendary talent at the top.
Giannis and Jokic can definitely pass KD as well
it would be hard to. 13x all star, 4x scoring champ, youngest scoring champ ever, 2x champ & finals mvp, 1x mvp, 10x all nba, with a top 5 ppg average. And when its all said and done he will be top 10 scoring all time. Jokic and giannis started too late to beat that in my opinion.@@patrickporter4440
Giannis and jokic passed kd for me just based on how they got their ring and how kd got his
You forgot West, KG, Malone, Doc
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 That was Bill Simmons' basketball pyramid top 15. I really gotta sit down and think of my own top 15. I'm biased towards centers though, Hakeem is my all time guy.
Jokic and Giannis is probably the only answers right now....Already all-time greats
Kawhi is also there. If only bro can play more than 2 games per season
Jokic and Giannis have identical accolades. Both are 2 time mvp. Both are finals mvp. Both are nba champions. Giannis is a defensive juggernaut and Jokic is an assist savant. Both have advantages on each other. I mean this is an era of these two.
The problem with them is that the rest of thebleague is wack for the most part.. who has Jokic battled that's at his level? Embiid. That's it. No Yao, no Shaq, no David Robinson, no Hakeem, no Duckworth, no Ewing... list goes on.
Only Embiid. Not top 15 if you don't have competition
@@jdfraed123that’s such a laughable statement. The league is FILLED with talent, just because the league isn’t Center dominated doesn’t mean Jokic doesn’t still have to go head to head with some of the greatest players in the game.
bam would be a top 10 mvp candidatre if jokic and embiid werent around, averaging 22, 11 and 4 on best team in the east? crazy centre numbers plus guarding 1-5 on the other end plus amazing rim defense. plus gobert and AD also HOF level centers. Heaps of competition for jokic and embiid @@jdfraed123
@@jdfraed123 Excellent point. I've always said that Kareem played against more hall of famers at his position than anyone in the top ten on the all-time scoring list.
not identical, giannis got dpoy
I think Tier One is Jokic Giannis and Kawhi. First two are obvious, and if Kawhi somehow sneaks one more ring in and a FMVP with the Clippers (doubtful but, maybe) that becomes a really interesting conversation. He'd have to sneak in the top 20, maybe even 15. Unfortunately his career is more of a "What If" at the moment because of his injuries in the middle of his prime.
Tier 2: Tatum, Luka. Tatum is already getting to finals and conference finals, don't know if an MVP will ever come his way based on his game and competition, so he needs FMVP's and rings. Luka needs a better team around him, at only 24 you'd hope they can retool the roster over the next 2-3 years for his prime and make some runs. The Kyrie trade doesnt seem to be a great fit but time will tell with a full year. Either way not enough talent with the right fit around him.
Then there is everyone else.
This right here. I honestly wouldn't even place KD ahead of Kawhi. Kawhi has that "it" factor that KD has never seemed to have. It's too bad injuries have plagued him so much. He's one of the biggest "what if" stories in the NBA imo
@@zacht.9585confused this is the first comment mentioning Kawhi. He's been top 20-25 all time already
Saying Embiid at this point is funny, haven't seen bro make it out the second round yet
@simple45679 ya I too was surprised no one else mentioned him. And agreed. Embiid has no business being mentioned in top 75 imo not yet at least. He certainly has potential to be top 25. Unfortunately injuries have plagued him. And I will say, that Kawhi game 7 shot was pretty devastating for his legacy. Just a few bounces away from an alternate story for both players.
Right now, Jokic and Giannis are on another level given their playoff success. They too have that "it" factor. Their teams tend to punch above their weight, as opposed to Embiid's teams which tend to underperform.
@@zacht.9585 Yea, Kawhi and KD are close as it is now. If he wins one with the Clippers, there is no debate. Kawhi won with Russ and Harden while KD could not.
And plus, if Kawhi retires as the all time winningest player by percentage, he's ahead of KD in my eyes, even without another ring. Currently, he's at #3, 73.2%. #2 is Larry Bird at 73.6% and #1 is Magic Johnson at an even 74.0%. He was #1 just a few years ago when he was with the Raptors.
People forget how great Giannis is , he’s definitely the best two way player. Defensive ability matters a lot.
His playoff offense is mid though
His offense is literally just Run and Dunk. It doesn't always work in the playoffs especially against good defensive teams. They got lucky in 2021. BKN was injured and had terrible defense. Suns were below average defense too.
His defense over rated as well
@@DonKey496 His "run & dunk," is actually highly skilled.. He has handles/footwork and a deep bag when he does that.
matters a lot is an understatement - You GOTTA be a killer on both ends. Curry ain't NO WAY a top ten player in history, a lotta guys above him, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, MJ, Shaq, LeBron, Hakeem, Kareem, Russell, so sure Steph is a top 15 , probably top 12 even but let's not get carried away
How did I miss this episode. The dynamic between this trio is perfect.
This should be the permanent lineup. Bye bye Tommy Alter
I'd love to hear you discuss the top 3 or 4 at each position who could play in any era over the last 40 years who could contribute to team success in various ways.
The problem with that is, who is to say all 400 players in the NBA wouldn’t have adapted their play style to the era you put them in? As the world goes forward, people go forward with it- it’s relatively ignorant to say people wouldn’t because we are all products of our environment. What we don’t know know, we don’t know.
@darealest2exist260 its pretty easy honestly. You take their current game and how they play, they skillset and try to transition it to different times and think on how they would fit compared to others. Obviously you dont go well if they played then they would worked out different did this differently or that differently. It will never be perfect way but the only way you can do it is to take what their game was like during they time
It aint perfect but its the only way
@@williamcroson7387That is literally what everyone is doing, when fantasising about players in eras. To think that any particular player would bring his game as is, to a separate point in history is just making sh up. There is no way to get realistic analysis, and never will be to that end. Only feels and opinions.
The only real thing you can do is to compare how dominant, unique and inventive certain players were in their respective eras.
Oh, and to the OP.
Greats would be great in any era. Problem solved.
Luka is 24 and averaging 28 8 8 for his career and made first team all NBA in 4 out of his 5 seasons. He still has a lot of time to win championships and MVP's and I think if we talking about potential Luka is definitely the player I would choose to get into the top 10.
Stats mean nothing without championships.
Its really hard to get multiple championships in todays League... I mean its always hard but there is a lot of talent spread all over the league... I think the amount of talent is higher than it ever was... so we have lots of teams with a superstar or multiple stars... but what we rarely have now are superteams that stick together and make it work like past iterations of the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Spurs, Heat or Warriors of the past... as good as Steph and LeBron are... they had a lot of help and stacked teams compared to their competition. Winning without that is generally rare but it gets rarer every year. Giannis got one and Joker got one without an all-NBA bei their side. Giannis couldnt repeat that success and it took him some time as great as he is... we will see about Denver. Took them a while to come together and overcome injuries as well... And no one is denying that those two are by far the best players of the current generation of superstars. To get the accolades players had decades ago will be incredibly hard without a superteam like the Warriors had.
It's easier today all you have to do is shoot 50%. THe other team will shoot 33% cause all they do is long half court shots. 50% beats 33% anyday and everyday.
@@JimBrave-ri1oc wtf are you talking about
Steph didn't have a lot of help in 2022. 2022 was Steph and Kerr's masterpiece.
What was stacked about the Kerr Warriors first and last title teams?
@@cycleoflife565 they weren't stacked at all. 2022 was one of the least stacked title teams of all time. They won in 2022 mostly due to coaching... We now know Poole is very inefficient, they got the most out of that roster
The last point that RJ made is interesting, because there's never been a foreign player that's carried the league ratings-wise, but the best players coming up are foreign-born guys.
That’s because NBA will never promote them because they’re not American. Instead they went with Ja and Zion and that didn’t turn out well.
@@PeePeeMilk They seem to be promoting Wemby a bit though, let's see how that turns out
@@nifemi_o good point
@@PeePeeMilkshut up lol, jokic just isn't flashy abd fun to watch. Espn been d riding luka 24/7 for 5 years now
@@SamuelMills-ez4jo that English is terrible. It has everything to do with the team he’s on douchebag. If he was on the lakers they’d be d riding him.
Giannis and Jokic only currently... others have a lot to prove and show before we even consider them
He's not there yet but Luka is well on his way. The fact that he is in this conversation at all and only 24 years old should tell you something. We will just have to see how it plays out in the years to come.
Agreed, people are far too focused on him being a 'bad defender', which is already no longer the case. The main issue he has is somewhat shaky freethrow shooting, being a bit of a ballhog and yapping way too much to refs. He has a good case for MVP , with how well he started this season.
Luka has done nothing in his career other than get bounced in the playoffs LMAO Empty numbers on a mediocre team. TAtum is so much better
@@juandelacruz3718 He is 24 and he hasn't played with a championship caliber team. Michael Jordan didn't make the finals until he was 28 even though he was putting up crazy numbers. Takes more than individual performance to get over the hump. Usually a players peak is around 27-29, so he still has time to prove himself. I mean Dirk didn't win until he was 33.
@@juandelacruz3718god damn hop off Tatums nuts
@@juandelacruz3718Tatum better then Luka, lol...stick to chess or something...28.4 career average, breaking numeros records...smh
I feel like its destiny for Giannis to end up top 10, the storyline of his life, the dominance on both ends and a real chance at winning more chips/MVPs
With dame too now I don’t think people realize yet that there just getting started
Agreed sir
Destiny…lol what a dork
@@mbelma6329 who uses the word dork in 2023 🤣 put on your wheelies and roll on out this comment section 🤣🤣
Giannis probably won't get another MVP. They go for "narrative" quite a bit these days. In the last few years Giannis has been a distant third behind Jokic and Embiid. Now I understand Jokic being ahead in MVP voting, but how was Giannis behind Embiid each of those years?
The sports writers have also been pushing Luka a lot in preseason writing a lot, even though he hasn't shown that he would make that jump.
if kawhi doesn’t get injured by zaza he’s top 10 no cap. bro was mad durable too
Yeah and I’d like to think PG could’ve been too 20
Yea Kawhi for sure also I like when a player has 20 k points too and shows he was a high level player for awhile like Embid and Kawhi should have ALOT more points
@@_Charles_LeClerc_no to PG. He’s been a choke in the playoffs his entire career
BIG FACTS!! People always bring up that Zaza stepping into Kawhi when they were destroying GS by 25+ but everyone also forgets SA lost Tony Parker the series before and he ran the offense. The offense had to begin running through Kawhi and they STILL (without TP) we’re destroying golden state. He’d definitely have another Finals and Finals MVP under his belt, if not more
I believe kawhi is still top 20 two rings,2 finals mvp,3dpoy unlike curry he plays both sides of the ball at a high level the injuries really slowed down a trajectory nobody could imagine
Ok so a little tricky . The only players rn that are on the trajectory (other then Steph , kd , bron ofc) is jokic and Giannis. Now players that I see with the potential to get there is luka , Tatum , booker , Anthony edwards and then maybe about 2 more I’m leaving out . So other then Giannis and jokic it’s no clear cut tho on who will cement themselves as legends
Shai???
You can't compare someone like jokic, who is a unique force we have never seen to someone like tatum who is very good, but is a talent we have seen plenty of times before. Jokic will easily be top ten all time and if he was American it wouldn't even be in question
No way in hell Tatum , booker or Anthony edwards get close to top 15. gtfoh
@@kevinlakeman5043 don’t come at me talking crazy , once again you never know what will happen , if in 2013 someone said Steph over next decade would become a top 10 player of all time you’d probably laugh right? My point , I’m not banking on them doing it but those players are really good and I’d they start winning more I don’t see how that’s so insane to you lol , jayson Tatum especially the Celtics have been on the brink of dominating for years so if he starts winning rings his is more likely then booker and ant that I threw in .
@@pantrywarriors9577 sure we’ve seen the talent but I’m also banking on that he will eventually probably start winning rings so that combined with the talent is what could get him there . I for sure don’t think purely as a player he is unique or special as someone like jokic
The following are prototypes: MJ, Lebron, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, Steph, Duncan. Other greats aren’t necessarily one of one; ie Kobe is a MJ copy, so technically not a prototype.
In the current and coming generation, Jokic and KD are the only other prototypes. Maybe Giannis. Wemby is getting that hype, but of course time will tell
Edit: I’m sure I missed someone. Go ahead and fill in the gaps
Good theory
hakeem and wilt are 1 of 1 lol
Luka? He is unlike everyone else. Better passer than LeBron, his size, without the athletism, shoots better from every area of the court, more clutch, streaky like steph but more consistent. Has the craziest game winners in NBA history. Rebounds like Rodman
@@JorgeReyesMDLuka is a Bird copy
giannis is a prototype FOR SURE
Jokic and Giannis. Thats it. No one else is even close to even being a possible unless things drastically change
Agreed. The top 15 is getting harder and harder to crack. You really have to be a talented, accomplished, and an iconic generational player who adds something to the game overall. Jokic and Giannis are each headed for the top 15, but no one else comes close right now.
I think Luka can be up there with Giannis and Jokic with the right star alongside him and team which the mavs have shown to not be able to do at least this far into his career unfortunately
Luka is just different gravy, it goes:
Giannis and Jokic
Then Luka
Then the rest
He will have to learn to share the ball. He is not the most efficient player so the fact that he needs the ball all the time is hurting Mavs championship prospects. His game is going to have to evolve significantly if he is going to enter that conversation otherwise he will just be another Melo or Allen Iverson.
Giannis and Jokic is the correct answer, but the next two are for sure Kawhi and Luka. Kawhi window is closing but if he wins another championship, might overshadow his lack of MVP’s. Luka still has a long road to go but he’s putting up all the numbers and seems on the right path with a long time to go.
If wasn't for injury kawhi had 3 to 4 rings right now
@@joeyidusora4978🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think a more interesting question is Giannis over KD all time? When his career is done, Giannis will have DPOY and a Finals MVP as the sole leader of his team.
All because of Durant's big toe.
Is KD even top 15?
@@joedagg4495As opposed to Durant having the Justice League on his two rings?
Man are yall joking? Answer this question. Was giannis elite is whole career? The answer is no. All of these all time greats, off the rip were averaging 20 the rookie season!!! That’s all time great.
Top 10 all time is awfully hard to get into. Here are some guys:
Jordan
Lebron
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Steph
Duncan
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Olajuwon
Big O
That's 13 already. If Luka, Tatum, or Embiid are getting in there, they have some work to do. I think Giannis and Jokic are close; they're probably around the Moses Malone/David Robinson range, which is just under the guys I have above and has a few guys in it like Jerry West and some others, imo _(I think Giannis and Jokic are both above KD in terms of all-time greatness; KD is a slightly better scorer, but Giannis is a better defender and Jokic is a better passer, and both have more MVPs and more impressive title victories)._ Both have back-to-back MVPs and 1 title, for which they won, and absolutely deserved, finals MVP. Giannis also has a DPOY and Jokic has all the triple doubles and insane efficiency. To be clearly top 15 all time they need to separate themselves from other greats like Moses Malone, David Robinson, Jerry West, and others.
to be top 10-15.. u need longevity, periods of dominance..
Jokic is better than Hakeem and O and it’s not even close. Also russell was a terrible offensive player which is hilarious when they say how bad jokic is at defense when Russell was worse at offense than Jokic is at defense also bills 11 titles had to go through 2 playoff series and 3 teams.
Jokic is so much better than Kobe it’s not even funny. Kobe is the most overrated basketball player of all time. He is Bradley Beal 1.0
Jokic is far closer than people would like to admit. IMO he already is. He’s arguably had the best offensive peak out of any player in history and had an all time finals run leading the playoffs in points assists and rebounds
@@CoC_Lord joker needs longevity to be in top 10.. which we just need to give him time.. thats all he needs . Not that I think this will happen.. if I told u he's gonna be average for next 5 years... Is he still top 10? Many guys on that top 10 list have played at an elite level for quite a while.. we just need to let his career play out. This banter of how he's already there is kinda meaningless..
Outside of Steph Lebron and KD, Kawhi is knocking on the door resume wise but I feel like his clippers stint keeps him out of the top 15 unless he makes like 2 more ECFs. Jokic and Giannis are a lock as long as they keep on their trajectory for atleast 5 more years. Tatum has to breakout and be the clear cut best player in the league at some point and I just don’t see that happening. Embiid too.
Luka, Giannis & Jokic
Kawhi for sure. 2 defense player of the year, 2 finals mvp.
Luka has bad leadership and bad defense. Bad combo
@@realspitter272710th in iso defense this season
@@P4P5 lol pick one specific thing to point out. If you watch their games, you know damn well he does not play good defense. I live in Dallas and see every game. Some of you just like him so you defend him blindly
Looking to put young players in the top 15 is extremely unlikely and a little disrespectful.
You got:
MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Russel, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan.
Then you got:
Hakeem, Steph, KD, Wade, Giannis & Jokic.
That is already 16 players. There is no one that can squeeze in there right now. Especially Giannis and Jokic still have prime years ahead of them. I am going to assume one of them is going to win 1-2 more championships before retiring.
you didn't watch, they're not looking to put young players in the top 15
it's a hypothetical discussion about who could potentially make the top 15 by the end of their career
no one is trying to say they're currently above some all time greats, in fact they were very respectful and gave props
Yeah super disrespectful. They always try to do this. I remember when people were doing this with Derrick Rose, or even guys the caliber of Brandon Roy.
I watched the clip. Even by stating they have the potential to get into a top 10-15 of all time is crazy. It means by the end of their career, they have to be better than the people already in them. I don't see anyone with that potential apart from Giannis, Jokic, Steph and KD from current players.
Do we really think Tatum, Embiid and Booker has that potential after some of their playoff performances?@@_WeDontKnow_
It’s starting to get wild how much people are ignoring and disrespecting jokic. He was literally a passing thought here. In America we like fake wrestling way more than real sports fighting so I suppose it makes sense that we like style over performance
First off, what did pro-wrestling do to you. Secondly, he was a passing thought because they all agreed, are they supposed to argue who's supporting him more.
Joke's on you. "Real sports fighting" and "fake wrestling" are all owned by the same people.
@@Victor-vf4tl lol nothing man im just saying americans enjoy the entertainment sometimes more than the outcome. Wrestling of all kinds is cool no hate here
.... They literally all said he and Giannis are the clear answers, what about that indicates that he's a passing thought? Lol. The discussion was around Tatum, Luka, Kawhi, etc.
@@treydigs02 I dunno I watched this a month ago dude but maybe youre right
Thing with Kawhi is that 2019 playoff run where he averaged 30 and beat that many future HoF on the way to a chip with no HoF level teammates was insane! I can’t think of 10 guys you could plug in and achieve what he did that year.
Kawhi did in 2019 pretty much what Dirk accomplished in 2011, they are in the same vein of championship runs.
I would still rank Dirk above Kawhi all time.
@@steviechampagnethat's tough for me since i grew up watching dirk and that fadeaway but then with kawhi i love the way he plays when "healthy" and he won more chip.
Load Management makes Kawhi out of the list
@@PaulJosephTan Dirk is also the #6 All-Time scoring list and he was essentially the first 7 footer ever to be a sharpshooter from anywhere on the floor.
He is the prototype Kevin Durant and truly changed the game.
@@steviechampagneLebron and Dwade weren’t injured in the finals when Dirk won. It’s not comparable. KD came back and was cooking Toronto but then went out for good. If the warriors were healthy they would have washed the Raptors.
Giannis and Jokic. BTW Giannis is a DPOTY that counts too.
Jokic and Gianni’s are like a couple spots away right now
Nope. You guys do not understand longevity. Giannis might be a bit closer, but Jokic isn’t even a top5 center yet. If they retired today, neither one is close to top15. They won’t have enough counting stats, and that matters along with your other accolades.
@@deadprecidents I’m projecting also in my rankings
@@JonathanHarveygoat2009 Couple spots away from top 15. Who's your 11-15?
@@gumballwaterson1957 curry Wade bird bill kawhi
@@JonathanHarveygoat2009 Aight Wade in top 15 is one of the wildest takes I've seen. Kawhi in top 15 is up there with wild takes too when he hasn't done much in the regular season and has had only 1 dominant post season run as the top dog.
Bird outside top 10 is also wild considering Bill is not in your top 10, but I can see some people putting him there. So who's in the top 10 if you have Bird, Bill, and Curry outside the top 10?
Giannis and Jokic for sure. Others are not proven.
Giannis. Easily
Hell no.
He got a lucky championship
And he got a lot of weaknesses
@@waillachab284 How very convenient that his championship is deemed lucky. Please tell me which weaknesses do we see in him that aren’t already seen in some of the consensus top 15 players of all time?
@@waillachab284 Injuries are apart the game. it happens. Almost every, if not every, championship had players injured throughout the playoffs. quit being dense
Giannis easily, joker easier
@@trathagoat1756 he got the suns in the final 🤣🤣🤣🤣every good team in the west was dealing with injuries and without mentioning The Nets
So stop it
The luckiest championship in the past 70 years in any sport
Jokic, Giannis, Luka. Nobody else in the current generation comes close.
In the league right now as it is right now 5
Lebron KD Curry Jokic Giannis. Outside of this if these players I mention do it at a high level for at least 10 to 15 years win a few and become more dominated and talented and have accolades which seem harder to get with the media and favoritism etc than they will be in the mix for sure.
KD is not top 15
Jokic and Giannis already have a legitimate shot. Too early for players drafted less than 5 years, but Luka already defies that, so he will likely end up in the convo if he continues with his career progression and he actually wins awards and at least a chip or two... the other person that would have been if not for an injury-ridden career is Kawhi
STEPH IS NOT OVER KD
It’s only Giannis and Jokic right now, nobody else for 10-20 spot.
JJ your podcasts when it comes to basketball talk are unmatched...
Unless he's taking about LeBron and MJ. Then he becomes a clown
Spat out my water when I heard Embiids name mentioned
Hate to say it. Out of the 5 PF gods: TD, KG, Dirk, Malone, and Chuck, only TDs spot is secure.
Giannis's resume is absolutely filthy: 1 ring, 1 fmvp, 2x mvp, 1 DPOY. Its a tough conversation to have, but one of those 4 guys is getting bumped off.
Giannis only won a ring because the entire League was injured though. Ended up barely beating out a Nets team with only KD, a Hawks team that had no business being in the ECF after Phily choking, and a Suns team that also only vsed injured teams on their way to the finals and also had no business really being there. Giannis' ring is a bigger asterisk than Lebron's in 2020.
what's the argument for dirk, chuck, and KG over Giannis???
@@tetsuya2ko what's the argument for Malone over giannis? That's the point I'm making.
@@TrueGuardify lame take. Luck and injuries is a factor in every championship.
@jivexturk3y Malone is 3rd all time in pts. "this game has always been, and will always be, about buckets"
Giannis and Jokic might end up in the Top 15 0r 20...Those 2 guys can probably get at least 3-5 Championships and Finals MVPS...Different set of Playing Styles that can win
Either could crack the top 10
lol if say jokic have 5 rings he is top 2 if he gets 6 or 7 he would be undisputed goat.
@@nebojsabozic2146 Jokic wont win more than 3.The parity in the NBA is crazy. There are many great teams that will have to share championships. The era of repeating and three peating is over which you need to get to 4-5 rings
Jokic is top 15 already
Giannis and Jokic already are both top 20 this is ridiculous
They never mention the DPOY being the major difference between Jokic and Giannis.
It's implied.
Giannis is nowhere near Jokic in offense. He's an MVP because he's elite on defense and good in offense. Jokic is elite on offense and good in defense (yes, he is, watch the playoffs and stop looking at blocks highlights).
Playmaking and good shooting in favor of Jokic and atheticism in favor of Giannis are actually the biggest differences.
@@a-j.200230 10 & 5 is “good” on offense💀 Giannis is better on offense than Jokic is at defense by far
Or the fact that Gianni’s is not even half as skilled as jokic in basketball, we have seen games where Giannis gets shut down. Jokic very rarely does
@@a-j.2002giannis is elite on offense. he averages 30-10-5. he’s 100% elite on both ends
Tatum is a CLEAR talent and/or production tier below Jokic and Giannis. Luka is the only other ATG level player when you're talking about who has a chance to enter the pantheon imo. Embiid and Kawhi are simply not consistent enough producers. A sneaky name that they did not consider (given a player like Tatum was mentioned) is SGA. If the Thunder realize their full potential and he ends up with a couple Finals MVP's as the leader of a perennial contender for the next 4-6 years while putting up ~30/5/5 with ELITE efficiency as a 2 way threat, that's a name who will skyrocket up a list like this.
JJ matching the light shade?!
Love these 3 talking ball. So refreshing vs espn.
Giannis and Jokic will definitely be top 15, when there careers are over.
Finals matchup need to happen
They give kd the respect kawhi actually deserves
same amount of championship and fmvp but kawhi got less first teams less mvp than kd
am i missing something? since when is curry better than durant?
Exactly. People mention the chips and loyalty, easy to be loyal if you have everything given to you. The 2019 chip without KD and Klay was basically Kawhi vs. Steph one on one, we saw how that match up ended.
Such good nuanced conversation!
Great work guys! Love it!
Luka and Tatum have to prove it this season. They're short on something all top 15 players have: individual hardware and rings. Luka's in year 6 now and Tatum's in year 7. Giannis, Jokic, LeBron, and Curry won their first of two consecutive MVPs in year 6. KD won his only MVP in year 7. The clock is ticking for Luka and Tatum.
we have to start lowering the value of an mvp though to be honest. With so much talent in the league you have to have just an absurd year to win mvp especially with jokic averaging a ridiculously efficient almost triple double. I think Tatum has already proven himself with all his playoff success. Luka on the other hand hasn't done anything in the playoffs outside of 2022. We should absolutely value playoff success over mvps at this point.
Luka hasn't even been to the finals yet lol
24 and 25yrs old respectfully they got 10more years to get that hardware let's see
Jokic: the way hes hobbling while running, it seems like his body will give out or he will retire early. He’s literally running around like Dirk in his last year. His skillset is there though to be top 15.
Tatum: Seems like he lacks body control. His movements are so linear for a wing.
Luka plays no defense. His game seems like Euro Harden but better. I think the only chance is Giannis because of his talent and heart. If he develops something other than bulldozing to the basket on offense then he’s reaching top 15 easy.
Jokic and Giannis already are top 20 and they will easily be top 15 when they finish their careers
If Jokic gets another ring and another FMVP I think he’ll already be there he’s just the perfect Offensive player
if he gets two more rings or another ring and mvp then he would be right at that 13-15 spot imo
He could be top 5 center by the time he retires
Stop it you 🤡
Top 15 players my list
1.MJ
2.kareem
3.bill Russel
4.magic
5.bird
6.lebron
7.tim duncan
8.shaq
9.hakeem
10.wilt
11.doctor J
12.steph curry
13.moses malone
14 .kobe
15.isiah thomas
16.Giannis
17.jokic
18.Karl malone
19.Durant
Any list that doesn't put GOAT James at 1 is Trash 🗑
Tatum doesn’t belong there. Just bc he and his team of one of the best, most versatile, supporting casts in nba history, make a lot of deep playoff runs doesn’t mean he’s in the top tier of players individually. He’s not. He’s in the third tier. And no one who peaks at that level of player ever becomes a t20 player of all time. Tatum would have to make a big jump. When Giannis was Tatums age, he was winning his 2nd mvp and was arguably the best player in the world. Tatum is like a t10 player in the world, t6 if you wanna be generous to him and down on some other guys. Boston media tries to force him into these conversations but he’s not at that level
Jokic, giannis, luka. Maybe Tatum and Vic.
Luka with bad defense nahh
Luka has the highest potential to crack top 10 with his current trajectory.
He also has the lowest chance of winning championships
And he is even 10th in iso defense this season
@@Jason09_Idk the way he played vs. Clippers and pheonix if he had a better team? Clearly, he could win.
@@Jason09_Are you saying that because his team isn't good enough? That should be the only reason.
@@nycat666 Not really , Luka’s style of play doesn’t allow his teammates to have success , unless he sacrifices his own numbers which won’t happen because he only dominates the offensive side of the game
I think the last RJ take is tricky, because LJ and Steph are charismatic, iconic superstars, which has a lot to do with these audience numbers. But Tim Duncan has a resumee as good or even better than Steph's, and he never had that aura. I sense something similar about Jokic. I can see him winning multiple rings and FMVP, but I think he will never be an audience raiser like LJ or Steph (with the Denver Nuggets at least).
Duncan’s resume dismantles Steph’s with all due respect
@@hardwoodthought1213Duncan’s resume dismantles everyone outside lebron and mj..so what’s ur point? U mad cause Steph better than Duncan without the defense lol..Duncan could never win 73 games In his life
@@jessicagalvan3358 Lol, you’re deluded. Steph isn’t close to Duncan. Duncan was the best offensive player on double the title teams Steph was whilst being the best defender alive. Your man losing awards to bench players and being hunted on defence 😂😂😂😂 Needed to call another MVP to get the job done. Duncan won 4 titles without even an All-NBA a teammate by his side, no other player in history won more than 1 without that.
@@hardwoodthought1213 when ur 6”11 u don’t need anyone..and this man said the best offensive player lol..I’m done dog..u Ididot men just like to talk..fucken regards
RJ will summon the death eaters for disagreeing with his take
Lebron: Top 2
Steph: Top 12
Durant: Top 15
Jokic: Top 17
Giannis: Top 17
Luka: Top 20
Kawhi: Top 25
I feel like Quentin Grimes and Daquan Jeffries would be the two guys when all said and done
Ah I see ESPN is staring to rub off on JJ Reddick with these top 10/15/20 all time topics 😂.
It is the most boring thing ever. A very tiresome topic
Good boilerplate slop over thanksgiving weekend
@@emmanuela7528dont click on the video if you dont like the topic
I think right before this they were talking about the future of the league post Lebron/Steph so it felt much more natural bringing up this topic. The clip alone though just makes it seem like an ESPN segment 😭
Giannis and Jokic are close to that. Other than these two basketball monsters, maybe Luka or Ant.
Tatum and Luka haven't done much yet jokic and Gianni's for sure. Both have championships and MVPs they should be automatic.darkhorse pick chet will have better career than wemby
We’re see
Luka hasn’t done much? Ok please tell me 5 players from age 19-24 that has shown the talent that Luka has? Are we forgetting that he’s averaging 32ppg in the playoffs and is currently 24 rn, has a playstyle that is not reliant on athleticism so he can do this for a whileeee
@@arnellsmiththat's all cool but he's gonna need multiple championships. I don't know if he can do that in Dallas.
@@getmoney3806this. Eventually, his individual records will matter less and he’ll need rings. You need counting stats for the legacy especially when you have similar ring amounts to other players long term. But Rings are ultimately what separate you from top50 to top15.
Easy example: Barkley probably jumps up 15-20 spots all time if he gets a ring. That simple really.
Chet is just lucky he got drafted by OKC a great team with arguably a top 10 guy in Shai. Down the road I think the Spurs will try to make trades to help Wemby. Remember that LeBron won his first ring at 28 so Wemby still has time
Jokic ,Giannis ,Kawahi ,Kyrie as of right now
In general, following people are considered top 6-10:
Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt
They all have multiple championship along with 10+ All NBA. Has more than 1 FMVP (Except Wilt as there was no FMVP in 60s). They all have longevity.
Giannis / Jokic already has 1 FMVP and 2 MVPs so they are definitely on the pace of getting there. Couple more rings and longevity will definitely put them around 10-15.
They can definitely edge KD (I'd say, they already edged KD) if they have more longevity and even Steph.
I think kawhi could definitely be there. Especially if he gets a 3rd one with a 3rd team.
I wish Kawhi had better knees because it wouldn’t even be debatable. He is an amazing player when he actually plays.
This kawhi take is amazing. You're 100%. One more ring and everyone will say it.
Sad career if he stayed he probably would be top 10 by know will see if he can get another one
No, he would have a legendary career of his own, but his totals and regular season awards are nowhere near.
@@Irfanhillthe regular season is irrelevant
Luka & tatum have zero mvps and zero rings. Embiid has 1 mvp and no rings not even a ECF apperance. Stop throwing their names in with Jokic & Giannis smh. It's not even close.
It’s players who can potentially be top 15 all time , so a projection, Tatum and luka (I believe more of Tatum due to team success) should be in that conversation
Giannis is the most dominant player off the dribble to the basket that the game has ever seen. If he wins 2 more titles he's going to be top 10.
Yeah most dominant until he faces the Celtics, then he gets owned by Horford lmao
@@juandelacruz3718 WTF you talking you about? Yoy mean like when they went 7 games without Middleton in the playoffs and Giannis became the only player in history to put up 200 100 and 50 in a 7 game series? 😂. Grown folks talking ball, go lay your dumb a** down.
The fact that they talk about Steph the way they do, that dude got one of the greatest stories of all time.
So happy to hear Legs mention Tatum first after Steph/Bron/KD and rightfully so
All Luka needs is a championship he will be 1
And Tatum will be hard with the team around him he needs at least two chips imo and I don’t think he can do it
They seem to have a knack for choking
Tatum is really good, but i just don’t trust him to show up the same level Lebron, KD, Steph, Jokic, Giannis do. Maybe they can grab a championship, but i think tatum is a phenomenal no.2 . Is that a crazy take ? 😭
@@itszirvah wouldn’t it be hilarious if he becomes two to doncic?😂
Theyed probably win a few honestly
@itszirvah Tatum a #2 😂😂😂. But you have Luka up there who can't even get in the play in with Kyrie. Yeah that's a delusional take. 😂😂😂
@@mockgriftclowns6729thank you!
I think he for sure has the talent and skill set, but I just don't trust him to get it all the way done as the number one. That feeling before a series or a big game where we know lebron is going to show out, or we know curry is going to have a good game, i just dont get that same feeling with tatum. Maybe im delusional, but im just explaining a gut feeling I get @@mockgriftclowns6729
I honestly think Luka is the only one besides Giannis and Jokic who can one-up the likes of Kobe etc. Don't think Giannis or maybe even Jokic can get to that level. Luka always had to work with a G-league or a dysfunctional roster. He's still only 24 while Giannis is 29 in a couple of weeks. When the athleticism drops, Giannis won't be as effective. Luka on the other hand, has potetial to historic if he has a right team and sorts his health issues. Both Giannis and Jokic were nowhere near Luka at his age.
giannis will be an all time great. top 10 all time for sure
Giannis won an mvp at 24 and luka turns 25 in February. Giannis won a chip at 26. Luka turns 26 the next nba season. Do u see luka winning a chip in the next two szns with this roster?
Giannis won at 27
@@George-u4i
My bad 26* but yeah Luka still has time "28-32" are considered you're prime years plus Giannis won in his 8th season this is Luka's 6th year if he wants to match Giannis trajectory he still has this season and 2 more and who's to say he can't win before that @@George-u4i
@@George-u4igiannas, blessed harden and kyria got hurt. He was about to get swpet
Respectfully
Tatum and Luka hasn’t done enough YET to be mentioned alongside guys like
Giannis and Jokic who to me already have top 25-35 careers when you really look at what they’re doing and the records they’ve both broken
Tatums done more than all of them by 25
The whole conversation is about which players are on an all-time great path potentially, if their production and accomplishments continue and grow. They were pretty clear about this in the video.
@@revampmusic56 Tatums had a way better team then every player mentioned.
@@danielrasmussen2167 what I’m saying is they shouldn’t even be mentioned they’re in a tier below Giannis and Joker.
@@Jay_Briscoe alright, carry on. Listening and reading are fundamental.
Jokic and Giannis are prolly already top 30 or so. So with one more ring and 7 or 8 more All-NBA level seasons they both will be top 20 easy. Then I would say Luka and Tatum need at least 2 or 3 chips along with some MVP’s and another decade of all nba stats to crack the top 20
Jefferson!!?!, said JAYCHOKE TATUM😂😂😂😂😂😂
He better than your favorite player 100%....that's why your mad at him lol
If Kawhi can win a chip with the Clippers he’s top 15 all time
Top 15 with 0 mvp is crazyyy
Nah
Jokic is already top fifteen.
No.
u know it brother
1. Jokic ceiling goat debate with LeBron and MJ.
2. Giannis ceiling top 10 definitely not top 5.
3. Luka ceiling top 10 but if he never wins a title might barely make top 25
4. Wembenyama still has goat conversation potential but way too early to predict that.
5. Long shot but SGA and Holmgren may be the next dynasty that wins 3 plus titles and the better of the 2 might be top 15 conversation after that.
Tatum has won so much so far, and he’s in a situation that could also win multiple titles but personally I feel he’s just a tier below as a talent.
jokic ceiling is top 15 not top 10. giannis cieling is top 5. neither are in goat debate
All of the advanced stats for all time it’s Jokic , MJ and Lebron at the top of the list.
People don’t realize how ridiculous it was last year to average
30ppg 13rpg 9.5 assist on 55/45/80 shooting splits in the PLAYOFFS..He’s not as bad on defense as people say because they’re trying to discredit him.
@@trewic8678Giannis is too flawed on offense and is in his 11th year, I don’t even see a top 10 all time talent tbh
No. Lebron and mj were both elite defenders in their primes. Jokic is not even close
@@juju-vl7oj People don't just rank on advanced stats, especially when 99% of NBA fans don't have a single clue how the stats are calculated or why. AD has the 4th highest PER of all time. David Robinson the 6th in PER and 5th in BPM. No one who's followed the NBA for a long time has either AD or Robinson even sniffing the top 20 all time let alone anything better. NBA isn't baseball where stats have held far more favor than winning. Not only that advanced stats can't be calculated for every historical player either.
Jokic, right now, has absolutely no argument for GOAT. None. Bron didn't even have an argument for GOAT until his 3rd ring, and even then, it was weak. Wilt, the stat record king, is left out of the GOAT convo cause he didn't win enough. Kareem, who has the same argument as Lebron for GOAT only has more accolades, doesn't get much love as the GOAT. Jokic even being projected ceiling as GOAT with only 1 serious playoff run is the peak of fanboy delusion.
KD IS NOT TOP 15. He hasn't been the true leader of a championship team. Giannis's 1 ring is worth more than KD's.
Giannis and Jokic are the list. Maybe Luka but I don't think he's getting there in Dallas.
Embiid has to like... make a CF before even being in the discussion, come on.
Jokic/Giannis/Embiid.
I’m a biased timberwolves fan but I genuinely thinks it’s possible for Anthony Edwards to reach these heights. Not saying he’s there or that he will get there but it’s possible
Luka would be a basketball hall of famer just off his European career. His nba success will follow soon.
Yeah, he's already a Hall of Famer. He's just adding to his resume at this point.
Only 3 guys I see making it.
Giannis and Jokic have already pretty much clinched with both having 2 MVPs, 1 Chip, 1fmvp then Greak had a DPOY.
Throwing Embiid's name in that conversation is bananas. A guy who was in playoffs 6 times and best he did was conference semis (with in some years a good team)
Giannis, Joker, maybe Luka.
Keep getting all your sports info from ESPN casual....Tatum is that guy...do your home work
If it was for under 15, Josh Giddey woulda been on the list.
SGA will be top 20 All-Time mark my words
He has a lot of catch-up to do.
Great Topic ‼️‼️‼️‼️
The disrespect to Kawhi Leonard is insane
I would say Giannis for the defense, ultimately it is a 2-way sport. But I look at Steph and he is clearly a top 10 ever player without being a good defender, that's because the complete revolution of the game he anticipated and for being the best shooter ever. If you don't consider D in that, I think Luka has clearly the talent for being top 10 ever, he needs a good team career. And obviously Joker, but I don't think he will play long enough and be consistent long enough to get into that conversation. This joker for 10 straight years? Probably top 5 ever, not 10, but I see him getting old really fast
Why do you think, jokic will age quickly? His game revolves around being a basketball genius thats 7ft, doesnt rely on athleticism for much at all. Unless basketball becomes a contact sport and joker gets cte, i struggle to see where youre coming from
@@spidle2653it's not about Jokic not being healthy to play for a long time. It's about him potentially retiring early. His own choice to leave the game behind and live in his country with his family and do the other things he loves. I definitely wouldn't knock him for wanting to do that. But it would definitely alter his place in all time conversations. Especially with the longevity that guys like LeBron, curry, KD, etc, have began setting as the norm for modern players
Luka has talent to be a top 5 ever. Plays great in the regular season and plays at an all time level when it’s the playoff
@@MadeByIsmael yep, kinda what I meant. Joker is really unpredictable, I'm not gonna be shocked if in 5 years from now we don't even know where he is and what he does
He’s not clearly a top 10 player. Defense matters
Giannis and Jokic are knocking on the door of top 15, I think Ant can probably get up there
Anthony Edwards pr team is CRAZY 😭😭
@@shepardice3775mans said Ant and disregarded a 24 year old who has a career average of 27.7 8.5 and 8 and averages 32ppg in the playoffs😭
@@arnellsmithEdwards average 31ppg in the playoffs on 60%TS against nuggets last year while averaging 2 steals 2 blocks. Defense matters. Ant is also almost 3 years younger than Luka.
@@kingdinodragonite3470 Ant is also too young to consider. How do we know he wont just end up having a career like Blake Griffin, John Wall or Demarcus Cousins?
@@joedagg4495 he ain't injury prone and he can shoot. Plus he has the highest on-off in the entire league at +22 while being a great playoff performer.
To me the only player right now is Giannis that should already be T20 AT and sniffing T15, ESPN ranked him at 18 on the NBA 75th Anniversary Team(even though officially the members of the team are unranked). Think about this not only is he the 3rd player ever to win MVP and DPOY in the same season, he has been unanimous 1st Team All NBA in each season since the '18-'19 season. Only 2 other players have one unanimous selection during this stretch; Harden in '18-'19 and LeBron in '19-'20 no one else has been a unanimous selection, not Jokic with his 2 MVPs or Embiid with his MVP last season. He is the only player in the last 50 yrs of the league that has been a unanimous selection 5 yrs running. He's also made an All Defensive Team every year since '18-'19 except last season (had it been position-less like this season will be he would have; he had 60 pts to Dillion Brooks and Bam's 54 and 53 pts so he would have been 2nd team AD for '22-'23). So he's a top 2 way player. If he gets another title, and a few more 1st Team All NBA or All Defense he will easily be top 15 All time.
i don't see how giannis and jokic are in the "what if" conversation still. i don't think it's unreasonable to already have both of them top 20 with what they've done
Luka is much better than giannis. Much smarter, way more skill, better leader, courtvision much better, potential much higher. Giannis had a lucky year, kawhi too - too much injuries on other teams that year. Still Lebron and Steph are the only all time players since Kobe.