The New Starfleet Ships in Star Trek: Lower Decks
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- The view from the lower decks is quite different from what's come before, but includes some new starship designs. In lieu of official information, the Templin Institute heads to spacedock to speculate on how the California Class, Parliament Class, Luna Class, Obena Class and others fit into the Federation's Starfleet.
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Развлечения
Before you yell at us for not including one ship class or another in our chart, just remember that was only intended as a quick reference and not a comprehensive guide to every Starfleet ship!
I have to disagree with you on one of the Star Trek class of ships that you mentioned.
If the excelsior class is considered a heavy cruiser it's only obvious to consider the Luna class a heavy cruiser not a light cruiser. I understand the argument that the excelsior class is in the modern 2300s would be considered a light cruiser as comparison to the sovereign class however I think a light cruiser is too low on the list it would definitely be considered a cruiser at the very least.
Question, you put the Prometheus down as a light cruiser and size wise you might be right on that. However it's mission profile would stick it towards the heavy cruiser/cruiser end of the scale. Just wanted to get your thoughts on this.
luna seems more like a sov/akira love child
Euuuhhh prometheus a light cruiser... That thing for its time was armed up. And better equipped then most of the vessels.
I would love to know where you'd put the Intrepid, it's a bit of a snowflake!
One of the things Lower Decks is doing well is giving us never before seen Federation starships; something we had to wait until the end of Picard Season 1... And then we got the USS Copypasta.
Also nice to see workhorse ships labeled as 'support' ships, not just explorers
I would think you could appreciate starfleet actually getting their shit together and creating a fleet of tough fighting ships. After decades of kitbash background ships and reused Oberths the implied canon was that starfleet was utterly incompetent.
And believing you have been transferred to an alternate universe only to realize you are on the wrong ship. "Fuck, they all look the same!"
Probably a function of the medium. It's far easier (and cheaper) to create starships since it's animated versus CG. It's also why there's so much more alien looking aliens in the backgrounds.
@@DrewLSsix of course I do. But how many warship types are there in any given Navy or ‘Space Armada’?
Audience:
“Haha funny Star Trek show”
Templin Institute
“What does the existence of the California class and The Parliament Class imply about the fleet composition of Starfleet and the philosophy of the United Federation of Planets?”
Nah, nah. Anyone who takes Star Trek seriously laughs about LD because of the details of the background of their jokes and how well they tell their stories fitting perfectly into Star Trek lore.
This is the best show for Trekkies to think and talk about since Voyager. So of course Star Trek channels will go into full Nerd mode about LD. And I love it.
@@smilingbandit4975 dont exclude Enterprise :(
@@smilingbandit4975 it helps that lower decks also deals with these same questions
Being assigned on a non capital ship is doubled edge sword
From one side, you are not likely to have a Galaxy saving mission every month
On the other side, whenever a war starts you will most likely be thrown like conscripts at the enemy till the capital ship finds works-perfectly-against-the-enemy solution
*Laughs in Defiant*
@@generaljimmies3429 the breen say hello.
@@COMMANDERHAWK22
*Laughs in San Paulo aka Defiant*
@@generaljimmies3429 laughs in borg cube waiting for you to be saved by picard.
@@COMMANDERHAWK22 Laughs in only to be repaired, end the Dominion War while Picard is stuck patrolling Betzed.
It's quite possible any militarism in the luna class is almost accidental. You set out to produce a exploration vessel, but the tritanium founderies are still producing ultra-dense combat alloys, the circuit-printers are still favouring robustness, the science corp has only been researching weaponisable tech ... So what you get is a bit more militant than all the exploration vessels, and a bit more versatile than all the true war-time vessels.
It's not that, as such. The Luna-class starships were built for speed (since they're exploring places far away), they have extremely powerful sensor suites (for exploration purposes) and they're equipped with excellent defensive systems (just in case bad guys are out in the darkness). They're basically the successor to the classic Constitution-class; great for exploration, also great for kicking arse.
It also helps when a captain like Will Riker is in command, given that he's one of Starfleet's finest tacticians.
OR.... You know.... Starfleet is tired of having their butts handed to them by some alien warship in the dark. That is not militarism. It is preparedness. Also Starfleet is MILITARY, the navy of the United Federation of Planets. Its their actual job to be militaristic. They day job, rather poorly as scientists, in peacetime. This mostly because they are always cruising about in half armed up warships.
I've suggested this other places - it's possible that Will Riker decided to make his sciency-flavored ship also be able to kick someone's rear by tasking his crew with various upgrades and system enhancements so his wife can't crash it into a planet again if a busted-up KDF BoP takes some potshots at it.
Besides with advent of Akira class which is excellent patrolling cruiser and also a fast crisis response unit and could be also outfitted for more exploratory/scientific purposes not mentioning the Defiant class (which was also used for exploratory ventures), you need only so much of other war hardened ships
True, the Luna seems to be the Willys Jeep of Starfleet. A peacetime vessel built from military surplus.
My father served as an engineer on Liberty ships during WW2. Having been born in 1910 (He was 50 when I was born) he was too young for WW1 and two old for WW2 to be drafted. Since he was already in the Merchant Marines, he was assigned the North Atlantic runs and was on a ship that was torpedoed (obviously he survived). Even while outwardly somewhat disparaging of Liberty ships in general, he did have a fondness for the one he'd been on that was sunk (can't remember the name of it off the top of my head). I get the feeling this is how many feel about the California-class. They know its shortcomings, but it's THEIR ship.
First, your old man was the man. Second, that concept was shown a few times with most of the crew expressing a fondness for the Cerritos. She's old, not the most advanced, and not the most glamorous, but the Cerritos is THEIR ship.
They panic every time there's a possible transfer, even when it involves a promotion hehehe
Like Picard with the Stargazer, it was a bucket of bolts but it was his bucket of bolts.
I love how Lower Decks maintains the design language of TNG era ships while giving them visual updates that accentuate the former. Matte colors, rounded edges with straight leading edges, and grey-black-red-blue palette. It's what you expect new Trek shows to be doing, yet only the comedy spinoff seems to have enough appreciation for the era.
Honestly LD writers are far better than Picard or Disco writers. It honestly feels like watching proper Star Trek when I’m watching LD, a feeling I haven’t felt since ENT S4.
TL;DR: The comedy works because it appreciates its material and the serious ones don't.
If you want to write a good comedy, you need to be able to actually understand the source material or have an appreciation of what you are spoofing/mocking to make it actually worth the audience's time. In the case of Lower Decks, it clearly is reaching into Memory Beta to bring out the really good bits of lore, as well as having done research into Memory Alpha sources and prior television runs (Landru being brought up in a hilarious way is a good touch)
The problem the more serious shows are having is that they are being written by people who want to write Star Wars or Game of Thrones and have no actual appreciation for Star Trek as an IP. As a result, the shows there are not very good as being Star Trek, and the writing is often ... sub par and seen as a cash grab rather than a true part of the Star Trek Universe.
@@seanwhitman8353 Or the writers/whoever of the bad shows want their half-ass self-insert fanfics to be official canon. All so that they can feel like they made their pathetic mark on the IP, or they have a particular narrative they want to push and are merely using the IP as their platform, or they're not a fan at all and want to change it into another genre that they think is better(grimdark, melodrama, fantasy, brainless action sludge).
@@darwinxavier3516 The brainless grimdark agenda pushing action sludge is what I see in Discovery and Picard sadly. Leave the grimdark to Warhammer 40,000, the action crazy to Star Wars, and the brainless agenda pushing where it belongs: in the toilet
@@seanwhitman8353 If you don't agenda pushing then I have some news for you about Gene Roddenberry.....
The California's are divided into 3 different mission types. Each marked by color, the Cerritos is an engineering specialty ship by the yellow markings. The other being red for diplomatic and higher profile missions. then finally blue for medical specialists missions. All 3 color variants make their appearance in season 1 of Lower Decks.
I guess it would like how the Miranda class were showed on both TOS and TNG. There was the heavily armed Reliant from Star Trek Wrath of Khan with the additional weapons module on a roll bar. There was a cargo ship version that was shown on TNG without the weapon module.. Similarly the Nebula class was shown on TNG with both a large sensor module, e.g. USS Phoenix, as well as an additional weapons on the same pylon, e.g. USS Sutherland. Sort of like a swappable mission specific module on the US Navy's littoral combat ships as well as those on Danish warships such as the Iver Huitfeldt class frigates and the Absalon class multi role ships as well as on future warships like the British Type 26, Type 31, and Type 32 frigates.
The USS Pasteur on the TNG finale (non-canon per se since it's only a possible future or even a timeline that never will have existed) looks to me like a specialized starship but then again we've never seen another ship from that class that's better equipped for battle, exploration, diplomacy, etc.
I really feel for that man in the WW2 footage who wipes away tears from his eyes seeing a liberty class ship launched into the water
Link?
@@KibbyKong04 3:49
Might that be champagne?
nope just damn manly patriotic tears!
The California Class is Star Fleet's equivalent of a tow truck, it's not sexy, it's a workhorse and wearing the engineering gold to prove it.
I think I read somewhere that the reason why the drive section and the saucer are so separated is because of how massively overpowered its warp core is for it's size, and it's even got the name and registry number on the back because most of the time you're going to be watching it tow your sexier command back home for repairs.
Basically it's the Chief O'Brien of starships
This is why support ships like them are essential. Even a 60 ton tank sometimes need an armored recovery vehicle when it gets stuck on an obstacle. Not to mention engineering vehicle to clear a safe path so that they can operate safely. We saw the Cerritos rescue the Archimeides with its tractor beam when it was about to burn up in the atmosphere of a planet.
@@bermanmo6237 And California classes were used to tow the colony ship in season 1. Yeah, it makes sense for the California to also fill a "fleet tug" role.
Yep. Like a tugboat.
In the show the California class come in gold, red and blue livery so it's very general purpose.
It's also huge for a Federation ship being longer and higher than an Excelsior class.
It's pretty much a replacement for all the old Excelsior and Miranda class lost in DS9.
@@jrggrop McMahan said that was kind of the idea in an interview, and points to the extra long nacelles and enlarged warp core. Look at the Warp Core in the Cerritos compared to the Warp Cores of the D and E. It takes up a lot more space. The Galaxy Class warp core was an engineering masterpiece, that allowed the biggest ship in Starfleet to also be the fastest (when it was launched.) The California class, being launched around or before the Galaxy, likely has an overall less advanced warp core, but it's still much more massive than the even older warp cores found on Constitution or Constellation class ships.
Consider present day vehicles, say a 2022 Chevy Silverado HD with the 6.6L Duramax and a 2022 Peterbilt 579 with a 10.8L MX-11. The engines in both are turbodiesels making 445 HP, but the Peterbilt makes almost twice as much torque as the Chevy, can tow almost twice as much, and that engine will serve for many more miles and hours than the Chevy. With that in mind, it'd make sense for a class of Starship designed to do the less glamorous hard work, (such as towing a Sovereign class ship whose First Officer ejected its warp core to stop a subspace tear) to have a bigger warp core than the more glamorous counterparts.
.... The Osler literally has the lines and shape of a WH40k cruiser or frigate. LoL. That beaked prow, the raised bridge citadel-looking thing which might be a sensor array...and the fact it arrives in a storm of nebular matter that reminds me of a Warp portal being opened. XD
it is heavily implied in the video that this is a reference to the Black Ships of the Imperial Inquisition.
@@juanignaciocaso4651 Which absolutely works for me. LoL.
@@Kalebfenoir And yet, they let a filthy Xeno be the captain...?
@@JeanLucCaptain perhaps the federation was the golden age of humanity?
@@Tokmurok A galaxy spanning, technologically advanced civilization? I have always thought that.
Going by "feel", the California Class reminds me of the Miranda - "we build a ton of these and now they are a bit old and creaky", while the Parliament reminds me of the Nebula - it's bigger, more impressive and can carry some cool stuff. So I think I'd move California and Parliament up a bit (or maybe Miranda and Nebula down).
Parliament could be moved up, but California class is certainly frigate. Miranda is at the right spot if going by TOS time period, it certainly fits light cruiser compared to constitution and excelsior class. Nebula class fits cruiser with Galaxy being heavy Cruiser, nebula isn't too(20 or 30%) much smaller than galaxy.
@@admiralkoerner2737 Yeah, that seems sensible. We don't have alpha canon crew numbers for a lot of these, which leads to all sorts of oddities (Beta crew numbers for Miranda are higher than Luna!). With my military history hat on I can see why the classifications used in the video make sense - Miranda is very much a "small-ish ship that can scoot about on its own" Light Cruiser, while Cali class are "generic workhorse" Frigates.
@@admiralkoerner2737 Nebula is basically a downsized Galaxy class, I think this is mentioned in some official written text
California class isn't that old though, they were mass produced to replace losses from the 9 years of hell and huge numbers of lost ships between Wolf 359 and the Dominion War.
What they were is built quick and cheap like lots of rushed ship classes built in war and were designed with the intent of very short service lives that then like after WW2 got extended since new ship construction always gets slowed after a war which is why they are falling apart.
The Nebula class is basically a cost reduction Galaxy class but should still be a heavy cruiser because it's still damn huge compared to most federation ships. The Miranda is the same only it's a cost reduced version of the Constitution class so heavy cruiser when it was built but only a light cruiser or frigate in the TNG era.
Like how a battleship built in 1900 became a pre-dreadnaught type battleship in 1906 and was a second line battleship in 1914.
@@Ushio01 here’s the odd thing, why is the constitution, which is smaller than the California class, a heavy??
On a related note, I love the starship beauty shots in this show.
Osler's Division 40 looks like they investigate The Warp and Chaos... Warhammer 40K style. Specifically, they enter The Warp with their Gellar Field off. They are a branch of the Templin.
Their ship design kinda based 31st millenium or great crusade era (look chaos ship one of them and compare to the D14 ship the prow are massive resemblance)
@@Ruzaraneh Yeah, I immediately thought 40K/Horus Heresy era ships when I saw that. And the sheer craziness of what the crew looked like was honestly making me think of Warp related schenanigans. It was creepy to look at and it pressed all my grimdark buttons all at once.
@Nix91 The crew is mostly human on that ship... or rather... was.
I thought of a black ship when I saw it. Same vibe till they got to the planet.
It looks somewhat like what I imagine an inquisition black ship looks like
It could be that the Obena was developed and constructed in limited quantities as a "safe" successor to the Excelsior, when the Sovereign was still on the drawing boards, and it was unclear whether it would be a success, though borrowing some components and technology from the competing design. A bit like how when the British were developing a new post-WW2 bomber (the V series), they built both a more conservative design with the Vickers Valiant, and more radical ones in the Vulcan and Victor, as a hedge against the latter being disappointments in service. So when the Excelsior proves itself to be quite successful, production on the more limited Obena is halted after a short run.
Could be. The Beta Canon is that the Ambassador was designed to fill the desire for a "true" Heavy Cruiser, so while it is replacing the Excelsior, the slight change in mission leaves a bit of a gap in mission profile. The Obena might be the "different Excelsior" because they want something in the same role.
@@pavarottiaardvark3431 that or so many were lost in the dominion war and the space frame was just to great that Starfleet ordered a new batch. If you really think about it the most iconic Starfleet ship is the excelsior.
@@boomer0117zr How long foes it take to make a ship in canon? Cos the other option is that they *stopped* making Excelsiors that were halfway built to focus on the new warship designs. And then when the Dominion War ended they had a bunch of (now outdated) hulls to finish.
@@boomer0117zr tldr: I wondered that Starfleet didn’t develop a new Excelsior class sooner. I think it’s the most successful design Starfleet ever developed regarding its service time.
Despite the fact that the Excelsior failed in its foremost role to establish a new breakthrough FTL drive the spaceframe of the Excelsior proofed to be an excellent work of engineering. It was designed to withstand the higher forces of Transwarp thus having the first streamline design of Starfleet ships, the most sturdy neck of all Starfleet ships and a huge secondary hull compared to its saucer section. In combination the Excelsior class made a formidable spaceship and a really good battleship. No wonder Starfleet took the design and just transferred it to modern standards.
@@pavarottiaardvark3431 if it’s bigger than the OG Excelsior then it’s a new frame. I think the class has just proved it’s self way to many times. It’s big enough to be alone for long stretches time. And can Handle a fight.
I always felt the Luna class is a refinement of those first generation anti-Borg ships, taking things that made those things work and make them traditional Starfleet.
What's really nice is having a Trek series that does not take itself seriously, I personally think that Lower Decks is an amazing entry point for people to get into Star Trek.
It also a kind of fun change of pace. I wasn't sure what to expect but have enjoyed it so far.
I don't quite agree because a lot of the humor is self-referential, which will mean that someone who doesn't know Star Trek will miss a lot of the humor.
I always loved the Excelsior class starship design. There's a reason it was used for over a century. The Obena class seems to be a great spiritual successor to Starfleet's most dependable workhorse.
I love how the Osler looks super ominous and is even part of an ominous sounding part of Starfleet but is actually just a really advanced ambulance taking people with incurable super science related problems to a place that specializes in fixing the unfixable.
With regards to the Obena class looking like the Excelsior, I'd like to add something. The Sovereign class was famously the first class developed by Starfleet at the San Francisco orbital yard. As opposed to Utopia Planitia. And much of its design, more resembles a jacked up Constitution class. So it seems to me, particularly when you see elements of the Sovereign design like the deflector and Nacelles that the relationship Starfleet's going for is similar to the Connie/Excelsior relationship
The Constitution Class was developed at the San Francisco yards.
@@Idazmi7 He might have meant "first class developped at the San Francisco Orbital Yard [since the Constitution class]."
@@VindicAlpha
Perhaps, but that's not how it reads.
I don’t think it’s a new class at all, Trek is often dodgy with scaling anyway. There’s a line from S1: “I hate it when a ship comes out looking all Sovereign-class”, and then we see this ship later. Retroactively she was implicitly referring to her friend’s ship, so imo it’s just a heavily upgraded Excelsior. Her friend took all the new upgrades that were just coming out.
Sort of like how you have Flight I, Flight II, and Flight IIA, and maybe future Flight IIIA version of the real world Arleigh Burke class destroyers in the United States Navy. Visually, they all look the same. However, due to the different equipment and weapons assigned to you, they are treated like different class of ships. This is exactly what the naval publication, Jane's Fighting Ships, treated them as. Not to mentioned you have Japanese version of this class of ships such as the Kongou, Atago, and Maya, that look very similar and have similar equipment and weapons like the different flights of the Arleigh Burke class.
I love how in the aftermath of Wolf 359, Starfleet were willing to design classes that were designated as "Escorts", which were heavily frowned upon as Starfleet wasn't in the business of building "Warships". Yet after the destruction of the USS Odyssey in the Gamma quadrant at the hands of the Dominion, the construction of Escorts, Heavy Cruisers and "Assault Cruisers" increased dramatically. If Starfleet had persisted in building an exploration fleet its likely that the Dominion would have conquered the Federation.
Wolf 359 was an inside job to militarize starfleet :D
I was happy when you mention the Kittyhawk Aircraft carrier. My dad served on that ship before and to hear it here today was the best thing to hear from this.
When I was a kid I used to play Star Trek with my brothers. I was the captain, one brother was the security chief, the other was the chief engineer. The ship I always imagined we were on was an advanced excelsior class. I was so psyched when I first saw the Obena class because it's almost *exactly* how I imagined this ship growing up (except with the drive section and saucer of the Enterprise-B variant).
The Archimedes looks like a custom ship from STO, it has the Excelsior Enterprise B Hull, Sovereign Class nacelles and a Constitution Class saucer.
That saucer still looks Excelsior class to me, just stretched longitudinally.
Except the hull of the Archimedes looks nothing like the Enterprise B's when compared side by side. It's just that neck design that makes you think it is.
@@Ushio01 I wouldn't say it looks "nothing" like it, the flanges are a different shape and slightly further down, and the proportions are a bit different, but all the major shapes are there. There's a reason we all thought "ooh, new Excelsior variant" when we first saw it. Amazon Prime's episode description even says "The Cerritos is assigned to assist an Excelsior class vessel on a first contact mission".
I'm not saying it is an Excelsior, but the family resemblance is very strong.
EDIT: I just re-read your comment: my brain inserted "secondary" before "hull" the first time. Apologies.
But yeah, the same applies to the saucer : the fine details and proportions are different, but most of the broad strokes like the TMP-Style planetary sensor dome, the flaring saucer rim, the trough just inboard of that, the curvature of the top, and the strongback running aft of the bridge are very very Excelsior. It doesn't have the massive saucer impulse engines of the Enterprise-B/Lakota variant, so it's more like a standard Excelsior saucer stretched lengthways and with an expanded bridge module.
That's in terms of broad strokes - it's clearly *not* a kitbash of the Excelsior, but there is strong inspiration in the original design of this ship.
I would say that the Obena class USS Archimedes is a Heavy Cruiser, rather than a Light Cruiser, she's a big ship, and like the excelsior, can do deep space missions...
Lower Decks really has given us some gorgeous ships. I am such a happy bunny whenever I watch that show.
Well, all except for the MC ship. Not changing my mind on that one.
@@darwinxavier3516 Eh. The Cerritos is no beauty queen, but since that's intentional, I've come around. It's part of the ship's charm.
I am intrigued by these black ships used by Starfleet's secret divisions.
I wonder if we'll see any of these ships from Lower Decks in Picard or Discovery.
Is it me or does Osler kind of pulls towards Warhammer 40k Black Ship?
My thoughts exactly to a fricking T
I'm really glad you mentioned the Osler. I know its an unconventional design (for Starfleet) but I'm in love with the Scooby Doo Dracula Limo/Hearse Vibes it gives off.
The moment I saw Titan on the first season final I was shocked and amazed. I literally went on multiple google searches to find more about the ship and crew.
Certainly a prettier ship than the copypasta ones that Will brought to the android planet.
There was a bunch of books written about the titans adventures. Diplomacy with the romulans, then getting sucked into another galaxy to meet the genetically modified humans and native species that live there, rescuing as many as possible from an emerging proto universe. And that's just the first book.
Far more interesting than what we have, but trekkers can't be choosers.
i guess you never heard of the star trek titan novels that have been documenting their adventures for years...
I really like how you guys compared the California Class to Liberty Ships, I think it's a perfect analogy.
I think the Obena was described as larger than the Excelsior, so it should be a heavy cruiser. Also, I wonder if it’s the end result of the Lakota sub-class? The Lakota was an upgraded Excelsior, and the Obena is essentially the Excelsior II, even more modern and capable compared to the Lakota. That would be a nice lineage of the type.
Go look up Trek yards comparison the Obena is completely different in design in both the saucer and secondary hull. The Obena is also a lot larger it's near Sovereign class in size with the California class being larger than an Excelsior class (longer, taller and greater mass).
The Lakota is just an upgraded Excelsior but still an Excelsior it's not even a refit/rebuild like the Enterprise in TMP was.
The Lakota was essentially an Excelsior with upgraded weapons that was similar to a Sovereign class. Sort of like a ship having the same type of weapons but mounted on TOS era phaser turrets instead of phaser arrays like those on the Galaxy and Sovereign class. Recall Chief O'Brien was very surprise with the firepower of that ship when it went into battle with the Defiant. That ship actually cause some major damage to the Defiant. Sort of reminds me when the US Navy had started production of the Ticonderoga class cruisers. They were waiting for the Arleigh Burke class destroyers to be in full production. They also had a large amount of Spruance class destroyers that were more general purpose and anti submarine destroyers. So, they modified the Spruance class destroyers with a Mark 41 Vertical Launch Missile launchers, the same type that are used in the later 22 of the 27 Ticonderoga class cruisers as well as the entire Arleigh Burke class destroyers, to allow those ships to have similar capacities, such as the ability to launch Tomahawk cruise missiles as well as anti submarine missiles and possibly long range anti defense missiles. Once the Arleigh Burke class destroyers were in full production so that they were more of them available in the US Navy, the modified Spruance class destroyers were all decommissoned.
I suppose you can think of the Lakota in the same way; an modified version of an older design to serve an interim role until newer and more capable ships are readily available to replace it.
Recall the Nebula class from TNG had a pylon where you can swap out different mission specified module. It was shown as the USS Phoenix with the large sensor module as well as the USS Sutherland with an additional weapons module on the same pylon. If you recall during the Dominion War. Starfleet was desperate for combat ships since they were losing them in large numbers at a very fast rate. So, obviously they cannot replace all their losses. So, they would have to either modified existing designs such as modifying Galaxy class ships that were into more dedicated warships with upgraded weapons. Or modifying much numerous older designs like the Excelsior into more heavily armed and updated version like the Lakota subvariant. Or they could built an newer Excelsior design with more upgraded weapons and sensors like the Obena class. In the real world, this would like the later 22 of the 27 Ticonderoga class cruisers with the more capable Mark 41 Vertical Launch System instead of the older Mark 26 twin arm missile launcher; the Flight I, II, IIA, and possible future Flight III variants of the Arleigh Burke class destroyers, and the Japanese Kongou, Atago, and Maya class destroyers, which are similar to the Flight I, II, and IIA variants of the Arleigh Burke class destroyers.
I guess it could be like the Flight IIA version of the Arleigh Burke class destroyers with more updated weapons, sensors, and equipment versus the original Flight I version of the same ships. Yes, they are treated like different classes, ex. the naval publication Jane's Fighting Ships, due to the differences in the weapons, sensors, and equipment on these later variants version the original variant.
NX abbreviation in the ID number denotes experimental/prototype designs as I've seen it, regarding the NX- 75300
I caught that too.
Knowing how humans operate in our current era, they definitely have a few shadow fleets that aren't on federation records.
Well, the KGB has a fleet of frigates and smaller vessels that are identical to the Soviet Navy, but it was under KGB command. Of course, the SS had some army divisions under its own Waffen SS command.
"Cruiser" is a collective term for a wide variety of different cruiser types. You can't have a generic "cruiser" mixed into mass of light, heavy and all kinds of other cruisers, as they all can technically be referred to as a "cruiser", and therefore require a second word to specify their purpose. For an intermediate grade between light and heavy cruisers, "medium cruiser" term seems to fit in well, but not just a "cruiser".
Cruiser itself means a long range ship... so defining a heavy cruiser as a long range cruiser makes little sense to me.
Sure you can. Say you started with just cruisers and then someone came in and built one so big it's role was clearly different than existing cruisers. That's clearly a heavy cruiser, but you're not going to redesignate your entire fleet light cruisers just because someone built a heavy one. Some time later, someone squeezes cruiser capabilities out of a tiny hull with a lot of compromises, and invents the light cruiser. Now your fleet has cruisers, heavy cruisers, and light cruisers.
That is not how the US Navy does it, and I suspect they used US designation ideas when assigning ship classes. There are no medium cruisers in the Navy.
@@loopslytle Well, TBF the whole distinction between frigate/cruiser/destroyer/etc is already extremely subjective/conditional/relative IRL and pretty meaningless in scifi. The only classes that really matter in scifi are the ones based on the name of the progenitor of the design. The other type of "class" is just arbitrary categorization.
@@loopslytle There are no light or heavy cruisers in the USN now either. For quite some time the USN has only operated two types of cruisers, the CG and the CGN. Both are guided missile cruisers with the only difference being that the CGNs were nuclear powered. But now the USN only operates CGs and only one class of CG, the Ticonderoga.
I think the Osler class is a nod at Warhammer 40k, look at the front of the ship its got a ram like prow like a lot of imperial ships. It also has a cathedral gothic esque aesthetic to it that is also common in 40K.
Notably in the lore for 40k there is fleets of "black ships" whom travel around the galaxy collecting psykers for use by the imperium. Additionally they are not very pleasant places for the passengers, just like this black ship the conditions seem curiously hard and uncomfortable for passengers, especially for a federation ship.
Scale it up and make it have more resemblance to a cathedral and it would fit perfectly into a Imperial Navy fleet.
Exactly what it reminded me, it also looks like it came out of "warp" when you first see it. I thought it was a hostile ship. More reason for me to believe star trek is dark age of technology.
6:04
The Osler reminds me of one of the Black Ships from Warhammer 40,000. Both visually, and in its operations and purpose.
Just with a more compassionate end destination..
Luna feels more like a light Akira rather than a light Sovereign. Just look at the saucer. It’s absolutely tiny when compared to the sovereign.
The Parliament feels more like a light Sovereign to me, so I think that fits to a Nebula-esc cruiser role a lot better.
I honestly loved Lower Decks. Idk what it was but out of the 3 new shows this one was doing it for me.
The problem with giving Starfleet ships modern designations is it doesn't always match. The Sabre fills a role similar to a fast attack fighter than a naval warship. It softens up a target before a Steamrunner obliterates it. Putting guns on exploration space vessels just makes sense.
The myriad of different starship classes makes jt more interesting to watch these shows.
I like the idea of a "Black Fleet" which officially doesn't exist but serves as a Spec-Ops force and in times of peace serves as a holding Fleet for the more Military styled vessels of Starfleet.
Its a great show and a love letter to trek as a whole I believe. I'm glad its getting some attention here.
It's main "flaw" is that it unfortunately comes from the same studio that gave us flaming trash.
@@darwinxavier3516 hey to be fair they made Metalocalypse, which was awesome - have a look, they've made heaps of stuff
Fun cameo or not, I feel like Q's appearance makes Lower Decks be canon.
Spoiler alert for Season 2. Tom Paris shows up on Cerritos for a tour and Ensign Gomez from TNG (the spaz that spilled hot chocolate all of Picard) shows up as a Captain and we see Captain Shelby as well. So, all of those in my mind make the show canon.
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Heck, if it’s returning characters you want, this show has had Q, Will Riker (in three different episodes!), Deanna Troi, Tom Paris, and Sonya Gomez, all reprised by the original actors, plus Landru and Armus (both recast, as both characters’ original performers passed away years ago), and brief non-speaking appearances by both Shelby and Thadiun Okona; they’ve also had a holographic recreation of the Borg Queen, again played by Alice Krige. That’s in addition to the many, *many* name-drops, pictures, and other references to established characters and lore and prior events.
Unpopular opinion: Lower Decks is more Star Trek than Picard.
Heck, I’m not sure that opinion is all that unpopular.
I’m not out to rant and dump on Picard, or Discovery, but I will say Lower Decks gives me much, much more of a Star Trek feel than any live-action Trek produced in the last fifteen years, and for me it’s much, much more enjoyable.
I wanted to love Picard. Now I just dred the 2nd season. Lower Decks has been embraced by the long term fans that understand what Trek is all about......it has apparently picked up the mantle. However, that's not saying to much.....sometimes the comedy goes to far, the woke agenda is sometimes shoved down your throat. With such a great source material available, is Lower Decks the best Post Dominion War we're going to get? The studio should have given Frakes his own show 20 years ago. They wasted time and momentum making 3 movies no one wanted. What a shame.....what a waste.
@@Avalon620 If by "woke agenda" you mean having black leading characters, and Mariner's off-the-cuff mention of her being pansexual--then I heavily disagree. Nothing is being "shoved".
As someone from Pennsylvania I demand to see an equally ignored Pennsylvania class USS Aliquipa (I noticed that Cali Class ships are named after smaller towns in California like Cerritos and Solvang)
The Excelsior has such a wonderfull and elegant design. so does the Akira and the Luna class ships.
If I were stuck on a Miranda in the midst of the Dominion War I'd fight tooth and nail to be transferred onto a Cali. :P
Both the Luna and Obenna(?) class reminds me of the Seawolf class subs. You can love the ship, but cringe at the price tag. Sometimes a more production friendly alternative with similarly improved designs is the solution Big Navy (Starfleet) is looking for
Love this show of the templin insetute
Simplest explanation for the Obena is that it's a subclass, like the Reliant or Soyuz class.
You did fine with the info you had. I agree with your take on classifications.
I absolutely loved the new Obena class ship!
I haven't watched Lower Deck yet, but the Parliament class is already among my favorite Star Trek design.
The idea of unmarked "darkships" like the Osler class (Im going to use that name) is very very interesting. Section 31 and or division 14, and other parts of star fleets "unknown fleet" would have a number of vessels designed for specific tasks. Ships unknown to many, if any outside of the ones that have to, leads to all sorts of possibilities. Maybe even entertain the idea that some division exists that has the equivalent to cold war era ballistic missile subs that are cloaked sitting just within indefensible range of almost every world of interest or concern, ready to strike at a moment's notice.
Ah, but if a dispersed retaliatory/second-strike force exists, it can only deter an opponent if the opponent at least knows that the force exists, lurking somewhere out there in the deep black. If nobody knows about it, then it's a first-strike force to use for sneak attacks and other perfidy, which Starfleet really doesn't approve of (in most cases). So there may be all kinds of nasty biosphere-deleting Starfleet war machines going bump in the night, but the Federation would be sure to remind its counterparts that they're out there. Perhaps awaiting orders, perhaps awaiting a dead-man switch held open only by regular subspace broadcasts from Starfleet Command... who knows?
@@ReptilianLepton The would be quite the interesting tactic, and not necessarily out of the books for an unknown agency within star fleet. A nuclear fusion inhibitor like that torpedo from generations would be a very good first strike weapon, disguise it as an asteroid in near solar orbit. Maybe star fleet keeps a certain quantity of reprogrammed borg nanoprobes that could be unleased on a planet, causing a grey goo event. Maybe omega particle charges hidden along the neutral zones of differing powers, creating a strong boarder defense. The vulcans created red matter without permission, who knows what else could have been created and "confiscated." (Red matter is very small quantities was shown to have big, but short term effects, and easily hidden. A literal black hole mine or charge in a single small drone or asteroid in a system would be an interesting concept)
I thought the OG Star Trek animated was cannon due to it having all the TOS cast and producers doing the voice over and direction. Is it not in the same universe as TOS n others ? 🤔
That's a damn good question. The answer is.... more confusing the more one looks.
Speaking as a bit of an iconoclastic Trekker, I was first introduced to TAS through descriptions given in Trek magazine and Alan Dean Foster's novelizations. So, sure, I thought, why not go to Phylos after the events of Wrath of Khan? (To which a friend years layer opined "They probably lost Harve Bennett at "giant Spock clone.")
Then came TNG, and Richard Arnold insisting that TAS was not and could not be canon. To which fans and pros alike said "Excuse me?" And Michael Okuda (bless him) kept sneaking references wherever he could, as an upraised middle finger. (My opinion of Richard Arnold is much like that of Garak/Bashir shippers towards Rick Berman -- the man deserves all the middle fingers.)
But, watching TAS on Netflix, it becomes apparent that sometimes it would get positively batcrap in its plotting, and there's a lot of lore dropped that would not easily fit with Berman-era Trek as Okuda laid it down. And that's not even getting into the fact that the Kzin are now tied up with Ringworld Movie rights, according to Larry Niven.
So, I guess the TL, DR answer is: Sure it's part of the universe, if you want it to be and are willing to squeeze in some pretty offbeat material. If not, then it is at least deuterocanon -- any TAS event or character mentioned in a later show counts, the rest is uncertain.
Roddenberry famously HATED the "canonicty" of TAS. But then again he very much disliked the changes from WOK on to TUC, as well as TNG season 3 on. But the powers that be currently in charge(including Rod Roddenberry)have been very cognizant of this and have been very inclusive of species and ship designs from the TAS era. Hell if you look at the season finale of last year the TOS file they pull up isn't the models from the original series, but instead the TAS models
Bad Robot has never officially stated their Secret Hideout Trek output isn't canon... But they have also never stated it is canon...
Nu Trek exists in the marketing/PR space of implication such as using the word Prime to denote the classic franchise from TOS to ENT is the same as Prime... when in fact that is an assumption by the audience that marketing led the audience to assume...
Or to quote Prime Spock... "Oh... I... Implied..." To get Kelvin Kirk thinking something was true when it was not.
To put it more simply, Nu Trek is a business model designed to 'update' classic Trek's designs so that the toy and model sales flow into Secret Hideout's coffers instead of the legacy creators of the original models... Or to quote Marge Simpsion, "They changed it just enough that they don't owe us anything."
JJ is infamous for trying to convince CBS to vault TOS to ENT products so that his brand of Trek would not have to compete. When he was laughed out the room he settled on subverting sales through a inbetween company that would insulate him from the Trek backlash he received After all, JJ's greatest asset is his geek popularity and fan confidence. He'll do anything to guard that reputation as it opens doors that should arguably be kept closed based on the poor performance of the films he's been directly involved in.
As for the OG Animated Trek... It's not really Alpha canon, more Beta canon. Though if you have a hankering for seeing how the TOS 5 year journey might have ended check out a little RUclips fanworks called *Star Trek Continues*
Lower Decks has definitely pushed the pro-canon side: in addition to the aforementioned TAS-style rendering of Kirk and Spock when the Cerritos becomes the first Starfleet ship since the Enterprise to visit Beta III, in another episode Boimler makes a TAS reference in the same sentence as two TNG references, and a number of TAS races never seen in live action have appeared.
@@davfree9732 JJ was also on record for saying that not only did he not do jack shit for research for ST2009, he also thought that his ignorance of the franchise was a good thing. He tried to turn ST into SW and he couldn't even get SW right.
The Prometheus is definitely not a light cruiser. It's specifically designed for Deep Space Tactical assignments. It functions via a high amount of automation thus minimizing crew allowing the few to go far and for a long time. It's a specialist ship that can function at the extremes of Federation territory and beyond.
0:28 that star fleet battles reference made me happy
I would fight for my life to be assigned to a _California class_ - if I was currently stationed on a _Oberth._
Because literally that is what I would be doing.
Oberths fill a valuable role in the Fleet. It's their job to die so others can solve the mystery of their death.
@@prion42 I have a theory that _Oberths are used to get rid of troublemakers,_ assign them to a Oberth and let nature take it's course. The Klingons don't have a corresponding ship because they'll just have the deadwood killed in a duel, while the Romulans would just assassinate the problem individual.
It's telling that _Riker's first ship was a Oberth,_ Starfleet assigned him to one due to several incidents of him sexually harassing chairs … but they re-evaluated him after the Pegasus incident and decided to salvage him by pairing him up with a half-Betazoid that would shag a regular crewmember into the infirmary.
Excellent video!
While you make sense on the ship classifications only the frigate is not correct in a historical perspective, frigates were fast, heavyly armed, and the most important point, designed to operate alone. While they can operate as part of a naval combat squadron they act as fast strike in fleet operations and raiders when operating alone,most privateers in the age of sailing ships can be called frigates, how this applies in the star trek universe I don't know.
One thing I would like to clarify is that the Federation calls all ships that it considers "Combat oriented" as Escorts so ships like the Saber class while small would still be used on the front lines
You missed the Defiant class (which I think should be categorized as a frigate. It's got one mission - combat - and none of the scientific/humanitarian trappings of any of the cruiser classes).
Tbh he also put the Prometheus class as a light cruiser.
It's a designated warship like the Defiant class.
Both should using this Starfleet classing logic be under specialist ships, as they really don't fit the other roles with how they are done.
The defiant has the firepower and defenses of most light cruisers, with the maneuverability and production cost of the frigates, it also lacks the range of cruisers, its not designed for independant operations (that's basically what makes a cruiser a cruiser). It would be, using military terms, a destroyer.
The Prometheus has the firepower and defenses of any heavy cruiser but lacks their range and independant long term operations ability. It could also be argued to be a destroyer, but I think a better term would be light or fast battleship.
The Akira on a side note would be a destroyer leader, same basic concept as a destroyer, just bigger.
Great job!
Well done sir! I like and agree with your reasoning. Keep up the good work.
So... sounds like the California Class is the Lower Decks ship of star fleet :) Gives a bit of depth to the choice of the name for the series. The name is as much for the spotlight ensigns as it is for the ship itself.
WRT the Obena class being based on the Excelsiors, there is precedent in our time. The British Caledonia class was basically a serial run of a slightly bigger HMS Victory, and this was 43 years after Victory herself was launched.
So you call the Nebula class just a Cruiser, yet it's designed to match the role the Galaxy plays, but more flexibly, and quite possibly may be *superior* to a Galaxy class.
Also the Obena Class is very much like a refitted jet, thing is the F-15EX would be a better comparison for the Federation, if the Excelsior is the F-15. A workhorse design worthy of updating. Possibly even refitting old Excelsior hulls to make them. Reducing the resource intensive nature of making new ships out of whole cloth, if you will.
One more thing: The Sovereign is pretty much the example of a Federation Dreadnaught, and the Miranda for what it is, is a Heavy Cruiser.
Mc Mahan himself already stated, that its a completely new Ship - A new Class INSPIRED by the Excelsior, not built upon it ;)
@@florianN132 Then why does it borrow HEAVILY from that class? Hmm? Again it's like comparing a F-15 to an F-15 EX.
The Obenna class could be categorized as the the Excelsior class refitted like what's been done with the Constitution class.
They did such a great job with these ships!
The Prometheus was designed for deep space tactical missions... so, yeah, it would actually fit into the heavy cruiser category (Especially considering how powerful it is).
It looks like the California class was meant to have a feature in common with the Galaxy class; the ability to lose its "head".
Een if the ship is only a saucer and a pair of warp nacelles and a tiny engineering section, it would still give most of the crew a chance to escape while the crew of the nacelles and engineering section go out in a blaze of glory at ramming speed.
The California class is a utility ship. A cargo hauler/ tug boat/ support vessel. The Cali class ships even have their ID and hull number on the back of the saucer so a ship being towed can clearly see it.
I'd loved to be on either the Luna or Parlament classes
I just notice, there is a Super-Miranda at 1:15 behind a Galaxy- Class ;)
The Excelsior was my favorite design, happy to see it's design carrying on.
You missed quite a few ships like the Norway Class, as I remember the Titan books she was an exploration and science ship, I think you should read them as I think you would love them books.
The Osler reminds me of Warhammer 40k's black ships. I've not watched below decks but when you see all those weird beings it made me think of the mission of the inquisition to find rogue psykers and round them up!
I remember this show getting so much hate in the beginning. I loved it from the start and always eager to watch the next new episode. It's great that it seems like the general consensus is finally turning around to a more positive light on the series. I hope it continues for many more seasons and longer too. 10 episodes is way too short.
Obena would probably be a cruiser as the creator said it was supposed to be like an Excelsior, only larger. which may make it a heavy cruiser. Cheaper than the Sovereign, but can fulfillroughly the same missions.
Really like the design of the Obena class. Was pleasantly surprised of how good an "updated" Excelsior would look. It fits into the era quite well.
My family and love the lower deck show and really enjoy it
Nice video. If you ever want to do something like this with the ships in Halo I'd definitely watch.
I think the _California_ class saucers are quite good, I'd love to see it used on other ships with a... more coherent layout.
Nice! I served aboard U.S.S. Kitty Hawk, she was quite a ship.
Love the parliaments! Appreciate the Canadian love :)
Since the California class ships were all named after California cities. I think the Parliament are supposed to named after Canadian cities since it has been described as an updated and improved version of the California class.
Parliament class is my jam baby
That new style excelsior looks great
I like the your Liberty comparison but would elaborate and consider Flower class Corvettes slightly better fitting as a comparison using efforts during WW II as reference. Drachinifel made a great video about those beautiful boats based on a trawler design.
If memory serves, the Nebula pre-dated the Galaxy and used components already designed for the Galaxy.
I'd also say given The Nebula classes involvement in the Cardassian border war, I'd say the Nebula probably fairs better In open combat than the Galaxy which proved sluggish and inflexible.
Based on STO, Galaxy class's war configuration is a Dreadnought configuration that includes a large phaser cannon (located under the saucer section), multi-vector assault mode, and secondary large wide-angle phaser cannon (housed in the neck section).
Galaxy class's combat potential is very strong when configured for a specific combat role.
I feel the classes you've come up with, themselves, might be a place for some consideration... especially with the roles you assigned them.
Granted, an Exploratory Cruiser (CE? Seeing as how the abbreviations for Light Cruiser and Heavy Cruiser are CL and CA respectively) would warrant a large size and heavy weapons and armor as to handle any problem they might come across while well beyond any support while also providing comfort for the long stays of their crews.
However, smaller and possibly faster ships might be better suited to dangerous roles, particularly scouting and border patrols, while larger bulkier ships may be useful for bulk transport.
Remember, WWII in the Pacific both sides fielded not only Battleships/BB (average length comparable to the Constitution-Class Enterprise), but Destroyers/DD as well (average length comparable to Defiant-class). Smaller ships are cheaper to produce and require less manpower, and can be used to help protect your larger capital-ships by acting as escorts. Barring such drastic changes in technology or philosophy that would make ***any*** comparison to present day irrelevant, such doctrines should still have some merit.
Just wanted to say that the Osler reminds me of WH40K designs with that droopy swordlike nose section. The interior scenes sure look sufficiently grimdark.
And yes, I'd fight to get on a California class ship if I heard Starfleet was thinking of assigning me to Osler.
The way Star Fleet Battles handled the differences is as follows: the cruisers are for peaceful times, and the "light cruisers" are wartime versions of the same ships... same firepower, but easier to produce (often can be made in shipyards originally designed for destroyers) but lacks the amenities and redundancies in a normal cruiser. Of course, SFB is an alternate universe and never got into the TNG era (unless you want to count X-ships).
Parliament-Class named USS Vancouver.
Named after a famous Canadian city and Canada is a nation that has a Parliamentary form of government.
A particular bonus for myself :) since I'm a Canadian from Vancouver
star trek lower decks is the best ST title, including the movies, to come out since voyager and arguably since TNG.
If I remember correctly the luna class wasn't actually designed for combat it was actually a ship designed before Dominion War it's construction was held off to make more ships fast to fight in war as luna class more in line with the intrepid class in that as more exploration science missions.
I'd say Lower Decks is in the same universe as the original animated series, what leads me to believe this is in one of the episodes in Season 2, they have a clip from the original animated series on a pad as a picture, in the same animation style as the original series.
Obena is huge, she's a cruiser.
Also at 600+ meters Parliament is a cruiser
I like how the parliament class is reminiscent of the enterprise F design
Excellent breakdown. The California class is an odd duck in the sense that…it’s not quite odd enough. I’ve been loving Lower Decks, but my initial criticism of its premise and setting aboard the Cerritos hasn’t changed a lot since I first reviewed the show’s original trailer on my own channel. This is supposed to be a group of second or third tier “working class” of Starfleet with one of the crappiest ships in the fleet. But when you look at the California-class, yeah it’s a weird looking, but basically it’s a damned impressive and formidable looking ship.
I was wrong about one thing: I originally thought that it was a kitbash of a Galaxy-class saucer. It’s not. It’s much smaller and it’s round. Apparently its saucer is roughly the same diameter as an NX and Constitution or Miranda class, give or take. But it’s definitely a Galaxy-ERA design with all the bells, whistles, and luxuries of a Galaxy-class. If I had my choice of crap ships, the Cerritos would be pretty attractive. That was my initial criticism of the show: Based on the theme, the Cerritos is just too nice of a ship. It should have been something that an Oberth crew would laugh at. Still, I love the show.
I would quibble a bit with your classification of Captain Gomez’ ship (I don’t remember its name). If the Excelsior-class is still considered a heavy cruiser, this one should certainly qualify. But that’s another thing that’s weird about Starfleet classifications. The Constitution class is (or was) considered a heavy cruiser while the Miranda class was considered a light cruiser, even though it has an equal or greater amount of internal volume (not to mention HUGE phaser cannons). That’s never made sense to me.