this was great! thank you! I genuinely think Claudia and Viren have the best arcs of the show. Claudia's downfall is so subtle and satisfying. Viren's dark traits feed into Claudia's character development so well too. combined they are a pretty nuanced portrayal of complicated and toxic parent-child relationships. I don't really care if they get "redeemed" or not. They are the most interesting part of the show IMO. I can't get enought of them!
Amazing analysis! Viren was always one my favorite characters in the show, and his nightmares in season 5 only cemented that. I think it’s so compelling how he is deceiving himself into thinking that everything he’s doing is justified, all the while lying to himself about his need to feel powerful and respected. Performing selfish and cruel actions while convincing himself that he’s the most selfless person in the room. Also I agree that he isn’t and can never be fully redeemed. For one thing, the amount of damage he caused on a global scale is so great that no one in their right mind could or should forgive him no matter how “sorry” he is (not to mention personal stuff like trapping Rayla’s family or manipulating Soren). But also the dreams make it clear that he regrets the consequences of his actions more than the actions themselves. Notice how in the dreams he’s never forced to confront his horrible views or actions towards Elves and Dragons, like the countless Sunfire elves who were displaced when he helped Aaravos destroy Lux Auria, or the countless magical creatures he’s killed over the years. The only people he feels bad for hurting or pushing away are the ones HE cares about Harrow and his children (and Lissa but she’s not in the dream). I do think this makes sense, as I would have a hard time buying it if the writers tried to convince me that he out of nowhere suddenly views magical creature as being equally deserving of protection and life as humans. But it shows that he is still a fundamentally selfish character, and is only capable of change after having everything he cherishes striped away from him by his own hands.
Thank you! I do love Viren’s complexity. I feel like he parallels Callum a lot but the difference is that his empathy is much more limited and he actually wants glory for himself. I know the novelization of book 3 is not even out yet but I cannot wait to read through this dream sequence and see if they add more scenes or what other details are included.
@@AngelesLunamoth I’m also looking forward to the novelizations and was so sad when Book 3 got delayed! Mainly because I’m hoping it includes the one thing I felt was missing from season 3. Ever since I saw it, I was disappointed that we didn’t see Viren’s reaction to Soren leaving to join team Zym. He doesn’t bring it up at all with Claudia in their conversation before the battle, and we don’t even see them interact again after that. I hope there’s some added dialogue where Claudia tells Viren about Soren leaving after he enchants the soldiers, and maybe some inner monologue about him where we see he feels some sense of betrayal and even hurt, but mostly anger and disappointment, or an assurance that Soren will “come to his senses” after they’ve won the battle. I also love the parallels between him and Callum, especially after reading the novels. They both come from humble beginning and likely believed that they would never amount to much, but learning magic gave them a sense of purpose and importance. The main difference is that Callum was looking for a way to help and contribute, while Viren wants to be respected and power, and isn’t nearly as selfless as he thinks he his. Callum also had the instance with the lightning rod in season 2 where he realizes how his obsession could get himself and the people he lives hurt if he ain’t careful. Best to nip that sort of thing in the bud sooner before it becomes a habit! But Callum does have one more thing in common with Viren. He tells Rayla in season 5 that he would do anything for her, like when Viren said he’ll do anything to bring back Soren. And then in Finnegrins wake, after being told that Rayla was going to be fed to the leviathan, Callum caves in and tells Finnigrin the spell used to kill an arch dragon, knowing that in doing so he’s sentenced Domina to death and put the oceans as a whole in danger without its protector. And then he uses dark magic again to escape and save Rayla. That’s why he looks so unsettled at the end of the episode. He said he would do anything for her, and he realizes just how true that really is. What separates this from Viren is that Callum doesn’t use excuses to hide himself from guilt. He has to be honest with himself and others about what he’s done and what he’s capable of in order to not lose himself the way Viren did. Also, Callum’s love and desire to protect Rayla is obviously much more genuine compared to Viren. That isn’t to say that Viren doesn’t love both his kids. The dreams indicate that he obviously does. But not only is it harder for him to show his love, he also doesn’t prioritize their safety or wellbeing over his ambitions. We see this when he tells Claudia to choose the egg over Soren. Or how he knows the consequences using dark magic will have and Claudia, and how he is actively worried about her becoming as corrupted as he has, but still allows her to indulge in magic while deluding himself into thinking he can protect her. I hope Soren and Viren do have the chance to confront each other so Soren can tell him how everything bad that’s happened to their family and Katolis (Claudia’s corruption, Lissa leaving, Harrow and Sarai’s deaths, Rayla losing her family, etc.) is because of him and his magic. And that no apology can make any of that right.
You do realize that it was because of Virens actions (that started it all) the end result was humans & Xadia have better relations. Of course Viren can be forgiven through atonement.
@@TheMrPeteChannel That’s an interesting point. But the fact that Xadia and the human kingdoms have better relations is more due to the actions of the heroes in response to Viren’s actions. If Viren had gotten his way, Zym and Zubeia would be dead and Xadia would be conquered. I don’t think he should be forgiven for that just because everything turned out okay in the end. Not to mention his treatment of Soren and him imprisoning Rayla’s family isn’t something that can or should be forgiven that easily.
3:40 Viren told Amya how it was not good to take the last jellytart in front of Serai's burial statue way back in book 1. He said he'll never make that mistake again so he probably gave them up.
I loved this video although I'm still not convinced by the Harrow Pip theory. There is another great essay on Reddit re the Claudia aspect of the dream sequence. The theory is that the blood moon and the blood sea is a reference to a woman's menstrual period and the 30 day period given to save Viren is an allegory to the monthly cycle. It adds another layer of sinister undertones to Aaravos' relationship with Claudia. Anyway, I wished this video had been longer.
Yesss Viren deserves redemption arc and a talk with his son and lisa also an apologise to Callum and ezran it's so weird if he dies and didn't at least talk to the princes the sons of his best friend that he ordered to kill them because of the dark magic corruption he owes them an explanation
I’d call it more of atonement arc. Redemption implies that a characters is fully forgiven for what they’ve done, like Zuko or Soren, Viren has done too much on a global scale to be fully forgiven and allowed to live free. Atonement implies him working to fix the harm he caused, like helping the gang to stop Aaravos and give Soren some closure. Kind of like King Andrias from Amphibia. He can realize his mistakes, help save the day, and that earns him a lighter punishment. I think it would be fitting if the series ends with him spending the rest of his life helping to rebuild Lux Auria. It would both tie into what Janai said in season 4, when she tells the architect that her hands will make her amends. Also it would end with him becoming a humble servant to the people he’s hurt, like what Harrow said in season 1.
@@LauraM96829 well that's what I wanted but my main issue if he dies without having a talk with soren and callum and ezran it will be weird specially Callum he lived with him for years and played with his kids and all what he knows about that he is just a villain who wanted the throne it's weird he didn't even question him even tho Callum is going the same dark way
@@Anastheinvoker I agree. It would be really weird for the writers to give him such a compelling arc, and then to have him die off screen. I think he’s definitely coming back, since in the Season 4 QnA posted on the official Dragon Prince website, Aaron Ehasz promised that we’d get a scene where Soren and Viren confront each other in the present day. So we know he’s coming back as either A) Some kind of Spirit Guide or B) He’s alive because Aaravos lied about the 30 day limit or the magic he absorbed from Zym in season three was still in his body and that saved him. C) The blood on Claudia in the teaser was Sparklepuff, as she might’ve killed him out of rage after thinking Viren’s gone and accidentally revived him without realizing it. I think it would be interesting to have him try to reach out to Soren to get him to save Claudia, and maybe also try to save Callum from being influenced by Aaravos. Imagine if season 6 ends with Viren and Callum on opposite sides from where they started, with Viren back on the path of good while Callum has become Aaravos’ new puppet.
I also don’t believe that Viren is dead. For one thing, in the season 4 QnA posted on the Dragon Prince website, the creators promised we’d have a scene where Soren and Viren confront each other over everything that happened in season 3. So we know he has to come back if for nothing else than to give Soren some closure and a chance to stand up to Viren. Aaravos could defiently be lying about the 30 limit just to push Claudia to free him. We know he already lied to her when he said that she needed to free him so he could make it permanent. In reality, he could’ve told her to just sacrifice Sparklepuff herself like he did with Viren, but he didn’t because he needed her to free him. I think maybe the sacrifice was actually useless, and Aaravos only told Viren to do it because he could see that his conviction was wavering, and Aaravos needed proof that Viren was still a viable asset to him. An alternative could be that Aaravos did think that the spell was necessary, but Viren didn’t actually need it because the magic he absorbed from Zym in season 3 was still in his blood, and that somehow saved him. I hope I am right, because there is so much we need to see from him. I’d especially love a flashback to see what exactly he did to save Soren as a child, as well as why exactly that drove Lissa away to the point where she hasn’t made any attempt to visit or contact her kids in over 10 years! Because if she believed Viren was dangerous, wouldn’t she try harder to stay in her kids lives so Viren wouldn’t be their main influence growing up? Also if what he did to save Soren was so horrible, why didn’t she report it to the King or then-prince Harrow? So many questions left unanswered.
Absolutely! That sacrifice was a sort of test for Viren. I think at this point, (The end of season 5) he is Aaravos’s discarded chess piece since he can no longer count on him to fall in line with his plan. (Maybe we’ll finally see Claudia as a chess piece in the intro starting next season) I always interpreted the absorbing of Zym’s power as going directly to Aaravos but I don’t really have anything to back that up other than he was in control of Viren at the time. But I definitely think he’s alive and also hope with all my heart we get to see Lissa. Her actions ARE questionable. Maybe she was terrified of Soren or unsettled by him since I do think he actually died as as a child and wasn’t just ‘healed’.
@@AngelesLunamoth Whenever this discussion comes up, I think a lot about how Soren immediately chose to stay with his father while Claudia found the choice too difficult to consider. If we really want to pull on the heartstrings, what if Soren overheard one of his parents’ arguments over what Viren did to save him. Viren getting defensive could say something like “Would it have been better if I had just let him die? Would that’ve made you happy?” And Lissa doesn’t give a response, partly because she’s appalled at Viren for asking such a terrible thing, but also because she doesn’t know how to answer because she knows this indulgence in dark magic will only hurt the whole family down the line, including Soren. But Soren, being so young, doesn’t understand this, so he assumes the worst and thinks that Lissa would’ve been happier if he had died and now Soren also partly blames himself for the divorce, which is why he feels like Viren’s love is something he needs to earn. Maybe he thinks he was a burden to his family for getting so sick and making them all worry and causing Viren to turn to dark magic in the first place. So he resolves to get big and strong so he can take care of himself, and feels obligated to repay Viren for the sacrifice he thinks he made. And maybe the real reason Lissa never reached out was out of a misplaced sense of guilt. Maybe at first she figured she needed some time and distant to sort out her feelings over the divorce before she could speak to her kids again. But after not reaching out for so long, she thinks Soren and Clauida wouldn’t want to hear from her because she waited too long, especially if word of Viren and Claudia’s actions in season 3 made it back to her, and she thinks Claudia’s turn is partly her fault for leaving her and making her cling to her dad. Which isn’t true, but when is guilt always rational. Or to get more sinister, what if she DID write letters to her kids, but Viren intercepted them and hid them all away, claiming it was what’s best for them and to make them more loyal to him. And after never getting a reply, Lissa assumes that they don’t want to hear from her and stops writing. Imagine if in season 6, the gang starts going through some of Viren’s things in his old chambers looking for information, and Soren stumbles upon a box full of letters from his mom 😢 Wow these comments get REALLY long! Guess it goes to show how much this show inspires the imagination!
The flower petals look a bit like stepping stones... Claudia's offering Viren a chance to come with her? The tide only washes them back AFTER Viren looks in shock/horror/disgust.
I think Claudia is going to use Sparklepuff's "essence" to fully resurrect Viren. Hence, the trailer showing her covered in blood and saying that Viren left her and how Terry is never going to leave. This would solidify Claudia's storyarch and offer Viren a redemption arc. They have a lot of loose ends to wrap up with only two seasons left. Here's hoping they can pull it off
this was great! thank you! I genuinely think Claudia and Viren have the best arcs of the show. Claudia's downfall is so subtle and satisfying. Viren's dark traits feed into Claudia's character development so well too. combined they are a pretty nuanced portrayal of complicated and toxic parent-child relationships. I don't really care if they get "redeemed" or not. They are the most interesting part of the show IMO. I can't get enought of them!
Subscribed to your channel 😊
Amazing analysis! Viren was always one my favorite characters in the show, and his nightmares in season 5 only cemented that. I think it’s so compelling how he is deceiving himself into thinking that everything he’s doing is justified, all the while lying to himself about his need to feel powerful and respected. Performing selfish and cruel actions while convincing himself that he’s the most selfless person in the room.
Also I agree that he isn’t and can never be fully redeemed. For one thing, the amount of damage he caused on a global scale is so great that no one in their right mind could or should forgive him no matter how “sorry” he is (not to mention personal stuff like trapping Rayla’s family or manipulating Soren).
But also the dreams make it clear that he regrets the consequences of his actions more than the actions themselves. Notice how in the dreams he’s never forced to confront his horrible views or actions towards Elves and Dragons, like the countless Sunfire elves who were displaced when he helped Aaravos destroy Lux Auria, or the countless magical creatures he’s killed over the years. The only people he feels bad for hurting or pushing away are the ones HE cares about Harrow and his children (and Lissa but she’s not in the dream).
I do think this makes sense, as I would have a hard time buying it if the writers tried to convince me that he out of nowhere suddenly views magical creature as being equally deserving of protection and life as humans. But it shows that he is still a fundamentally selfish character, and is only capable of change after having everything he cherishes striped away from him by his own hands.
Thank you! I do love Viren’s complexity. I feel like he parallels Callum a lot but the difference is that his empathy is much more limited and he actually wants glory for himself. I know the novelization of book 3 is not even out yet but I cannot wait to read through this dream sequence and see if they add more scenes or what other details are included.
@@AngelesLunamoth I’m also looking forward to the novelizations and was so sad when Book 3 got delayed! Mainly because I’m hoping it includes the one thing I felt was missing from season 3. Ever since I saw it, I was disappointed that we didn’t see Viren’s reaction to Soren leaving to join team Zym. He doesn’t bring it up at all with Claudia in their conversation before the battle, and we don’t even see them interact again after that.
I hope there’s some added dialogue where Claudia tells Viren about Soren leaving after he enchants the soldiers, and maybe some inner monologue about him where we see he feels some sense of betrayal and even hurt, but mostly anger and disappointment, or an assurance that Soren will “come to his senses” after they’ve won the battle.
I also love the parallels between him and Callum, especially after reading the novels. They both come from humble beginning and likely believed that they would never amount to much, but learning magic gave them a sense of purpose and importance. The main difference is that Callum was looking for a way to help and contribute, while Viren wants to be respected and power, and isn’t nearly as selfless as he thinks he his. Callum also had the instance with the lightning rod in season 2 where he realizes how his obsession could get himself and the people he lives hurt if he ain’t careful. Best to nip that sort of thing in the bud sooner before it becomes a habit!
But Callum does have one more thing in common with Viren. He tells Rayla in season 5 that he would do anything for her, like when Viren said he’ll do anything to bring back Soren. And then in Finnegrins wake, after being told that Rayla was going to be fed to the leviathan, Callum caves in and tells Finnigrin the spell used to kill an arch dragon, knowing that in doing so he’s sentenced Domina to death and put the oceans as a whole in danger without its protector. And then he uses dark magic again to escape and save Rayla. That’s why he looks so unsettled at the end of the episode. He said he would do anything for her, and he realizes just how true that really is.
What separates this from Viren is that Callum doesn’t use excuses to hide himself from guilt. He has to be honest with himself and others about what he’s done and what he’s capable of in order to not lose himself the way Viren did.
Also, Callum’s love and desire to protect Rayla is obviously much more genuine compared to Viren. That isn’t to say that Viren doesn’t love both his kids. The dreams indicate that he obviously does. But not only is it harder for him to show his love, he also doesn’t prioritize their safety or wellbeing over his ambitions. We see this when he tells Claudia to choose the egg over Soren. Or how he knows the consequences using dark magic will have and Claudia, and how he is actively worried about her becoming as corrupted as he has, but still allows her to indulge in magic while deluding himself into thinking he can protect her.
I hope Soren and Viren do have the chance to confront each other so Soren can tell him how everything bad that’s happened to their family and Katolis (Claudia’s corruption, Lissa leaving, Harrow and Sarai’s deaths, Rayla losing her family, etc.) is because of him and his magic. And that no apology can make any of that right.
You do realize that it was because of Virens actions (that started it all) the end result was humans & Xadia have better relations. Of course Viren can be forgiven through atonement.
@@TheMrPeteChannel That’s an interesting point. But the fact that Xadia and the human kingdoms have better relations is more due to the actions of the heroes in response to Viren’s actions. If Viren had gotten his way, Zym and Zubeia would be dead and Xadia would be conquered. I don’t think he should be forgiven for that just because everything turned out okay in the end. Not to mention his treatment of Soren and him imprisoning Rayla’s family isn’t something that can or should be forgiven that easily.
Sir sparkle bug Is his heir 😅 sorry he'd be a disastrous king
3:40 Viren told Amya how it was not good to take the last jellytart in front of Serai's burial statue way back in book 1. He said he'll never make that mistake again so he probably gave them up.
Wow another great video! I love it!
I loved this video although I'm still not convinced by the Harrow Pip theory. There is another great essay on Reddit re the Claudia aspect of the dream sequence.
The theory is that the blood moon and the blood sea is a reference to a woman's menstrual period and the 30 day period given to save Viren is an allegory to the monthly cycle. It adds another layer of sinister undertones to Aaravos' relationship with Claudia.
Anyway, I wished this video had been longer.
Yesss Viren deserves redemption arc and a talk with his son and lisa also an apologise to Callum and ezran it's so weird if he dies and didn't at least talk to the princes the sons of his best friend that he ordered to kill them because of the dark magic corruption he owes them an explanation
I’d call it more of atonement arc. Redemption implies that a characters is fully forgiven for what they’ve done, like Zuko or Soren, Viren has done too much on a global scale to be fully forgiven and allowed to live free.
Atonement implies him working to fix the harm he caused, like helping the gang to stop Aaravos and give Soren some closure. Kind of like King Andrias from Amphibia. He can realize his mistakes, help save the day, and that earns him a lighter punishment. I think it would be fitting if the series ends with him spending the rest of his life helping to rebuild Lux Auria. It would both tie into what Janai said in season 4, when she tells the architect that her hands will make her amends. Also it would end with him becoming a humble servant to the people he’s hurt, like what Harrow said in season 1.
@@LauraM96829 well that's what I wanted but my main issue if he dies without having a talk with soren and callum and ezran it will be weird specially Callum he lived with him for years and played with his kids and all what he knows about that he is just a villain who wanted the throne it's weird he didn't even question him even tho Callum is going the same dark way
@@Anastheinvoker I agree. It would be really weird for the writers to give him such a compelling arc, and then to have him die off screen. I think he’s definitely coming back, since in the Season 4 QnA posted on the official Dragon Prince website, Aaron Ehasz promised that we’d get a scene where Soren and Viren confront each other in the present day.
So we know he’s coming back as either A) Some kind of Spirit Guide or B) He’s alive because Aaravos lied about the 30 day limit or the magic he absorbed from Zym in season three was still in his body and that saved him. C) The blood on Claudia in the teaser was Sparklepuff, as she might’ve killed him out of rage after thinking Viren’s gone and accidentally revived him without realizing it.
I think it would be interesting to have him try to reach out to Soren to get him to save Claudia, and maybe also try to save Callum from being influenced by Aaravos. Imagine if season 6 ends with Viren and Callum on opposite sides from where they started, with Viren back on the path of good while Callum has become Aaravos’ new puppet.
I also don’t believe that Viren is dead. For one thing, in the season 4 QnA posted on the Dragon Prince website, the creators promised we’d have a scene where Soren and Viren confront each other over everything that happened in season 3. So we know he has to come back if for nothing else than to give Soren some closure and a chance to stand up to Viren.
Aaravos could defiently be lying about the 30 limit just to push Claudia to free him. We know he already lied to her when he said that she needed to free him so he could make it permanent. In reality, he could’ve told her to just sacrifice Sparklepuff herself like he did with Viren, but he didn’t because he needed her to free him.
I think maybe the sacrifice was actually useless, and Aaravos only told Viren to do it because he could see that his conviction was wavering, and Aaravos needed proof that Viren was still a viable asset to him. An alternative could be that Aaravos did think that the spell was necessary, but Viren didn’t actually need it because the magic he absorbed from Zym in season 3 was still in his blood, and that somehow saved him.
I hope I am right, because there is so much we need to see from him. I’d especially love a flashback to see what exactly he did to save Soren as a child, as well as why exactly that drove Lissa away to the point where she hasn’t made any attempt to visit or contact her kids in over 10 years! Because if she believed Viren was dangerous, wouldn’t she try harder to stay in her kids lives so Viren wouldn’t be their main influence growing up? Also if what he did to save Soren was so horrible, why didn’t she report it to the King or then-prince Harrow? So many questions left unanswered.
Absolutely! That sacrifice was a sort of test for Viren. I think at this point, (The end of season 5) he is Aaravos’s discarded chess piece since he can no longer count on him to fall in line with his plan. (Maybe we’ll finally see Claudia as a chess piece in the intro starting next season)
I always interpreted the absorbing of Zym’s power as going directly to Aaravos but I don’t really have anything to back that up other than he was in control of Viren at the time.
But I definitely think he’s alive and also hope with all my heart we get to see Lissa. Her actions ARE questionable. Maybe she was terrified of Soren or unsettled by him since I do think he actually died as as a child and wasn’t just ‘healed’.
@@AngelesLunamoth Whenever this discussion comes up, I think a lot about how Soren immediately chose to stay with his father while Claudia found the choice too difficult to consider. If we really want to pull on the heartstrings, what if Soren overheard one of his parents’ arguments over what Viren did to save him.
Viren getting defensive could say something like “Would it have been better if I had just let him die? Would that’ve made you happy?” And Lissa doesn’t give a response, partly because she’s appalled at Viren for asking such a terrible thing, but also because she doesn’t know how to answer because she knows this indulgence in dark magic will only hurt the whole family down the line, including Soren.
But Soren, being so young, doesn’t understand this, so he assumes the worst and thinks that Lissa would’ve been happier if he had died and now Soren also partly blames himself for the divorce, which is why he feels like Viren’s love is something he needs to earn. Maybe he thinks he was a burden to his family for getting so sick and making them all worry and causing Viren to turn to dark magic in the first place. So he resolves to get big and strong so he can take care of himself, and feels obligated to repay Viren for the sacrifice he thinks he made.
And maybe the real reason Lissa never reached out was out of a misplaced sense of guilt. Maybe at first she figured she needed some time and distant to sort out her feelings over the divorce before she could speak to her kids again. But after not reaching out for so long, she thinks Soren and Clauida wouldn’t want to hear from her because she waited too long, especially if word of Viren and Claudia’s actions in season 3 made it back to her, and she thinks Claudia’s turn is partly her fault for leaving her and making her cling to her dad. Which isn’t true, but when is guilt always rational.
Or to get more sinister, what if she DID write letters to her kids, but Viren intercepted them and hid them all away, claiming it was what’s best for them and to make them more loyal to him. And after never getting a reply, Lissa assumes that they don’t want to hear from her and stops writing. Imagine if in season 6, the gang starts going through some of Viren’s things in his old chambers looking for information, and Soren stumbles upon a box full of letters from his mom 😢
Wow these comments get REALLY long! Guess it goes to show how much this show inspires the imagination!
The flower petals look a bit like stepping stones... Claudia's offering Viren a chance to come with her? The tide only washes them back AFTER Viren looks in shock/horror/disgust.
I think Claudia is going to use Sparklepuff's "essence" to fully resurrect Viren. Hence, the trailer showing her covered in blood and saying that Viren left her and how Terry is never going to leave. This would solidify Claudia's storyarch and offer Viren a redemption arc. They have a lot of loose ends to wrap up with only two seasons left. Here's hoping they can pull it off