@@juanitajones6900 Respectfully that is not insecurity. That is Jack's awakening. He's done with the brunette's chaos. He's literally a man to himself and truly lives to the mantra, "he walks amongst us but is not one of us".
@@TomOnTheRun Hmmm . . . But this was not about the chaos caused by Kate. This was chaos caused by Sayid. And Kate wasn't the only one who had disapproved of Jack's decision not to operate on Ben.
This is Kate's best episode, she changed because of her love for that little boy, by turning herself in and facing the consequences of everything she did, by giving him up to his grandmother and going to find his real mother. I trully think that Aaron is the love of her life. Also, Ben wasn't evil before, he was just hurt and damaged by his father, he only changed after Richard took him.
You could argue that Kate did what she always do, she run away. Not only she felt bad about taking the kid, but she could easily end up in jail. So she run away once again. Also, I think the show tries to imply (this might be a spoiler!) ...that maybe getting resurrected dosn't actually "turn you evil", its just a believe that the people on the temple had. Maybe it just "resets" everything about you. At least thats how I always seen it.
Regardless, I don't have a positive view of Kate's time with Aaron, especially since she kept Aaron from his grandmother for selfish reasons and for nearly 3 years.
@@Pir-o Kate didn't just 'run away' though. She went back to the island specifically to find Claire and bring her home to Aaron. I don't see how anyone can shape that any other way.
Cassidy was right that Kate had used Aaron to help her ignore whatever emotional turmoil she was experiencing while leaving the island. However, I agree that Kate was always more emotionally invested in Jack.
@@rxtsec1 I don't believe it. I had noticed in one of the flashforwards for the Season Four finale, Kate had a photograph of herself, Aaron and Jack on the mantlepiece above her fireplace. This scene was featured after hers and Jack's breakup. Kate's continuing possession of that photo makes me believe that the only two people she truly loved were Aaron and Jack.
@@juanitajones6900 yeah she used Aaron to move on. By that time she had no choice but to choose jack with 3 years and having a relationship with him and it still didn't work out. In truth Jack always wanted her more than Sawyer ever did anyways which this episode also pointed out.
21:10 As the title - and Miles - suggests, what happened, happened. Ben was shot in 1977 as a kid, that much is fact as is the fact that it was Kate and Sawyer who helped save him. As Richard said though, Ben won't remember that.
From 3.20 - "BEN: This is where I came from, John. These are my people. The DHARMA Initiative. They came here seeking harmony, but they couldn't even coexist with the Island's original inhabitants. And when it became clear that one side had to go, one side had to be purged, I did what I had to do. I was one of the people that was smart enough to make sure that I didn't end up in that ditch. Which makes me considerably smarter than you, John." I was ONE OF THE PEOPLE that was smart enough... so several Others were Dharma folks. My guess is that Tom was another. He made comments how the bears only needed 2 hours to figure out the Hydra cage thingy. How would he know if not for him being ex-Dharma?
@@marty13612 I don't recall any confirmation that Tom Friendly used to be part of the Dharma Initiative. Ethan was born into it. As for Mikhail . . . I don't know.
Little baby Goodspeed didn't end up in the ditch either, he gets a nice view Across The Sea instead! :P As an aside do we know where Tom & Co ended up? Either they're buried on the beach in the "bad guy" graveyard with Ethan or if they were just left on the beach somewhere nearby the 815 camp maybe Richard and the Others went and retrieved them when everyone else vanished during the time skipping when there was some peace and quiet?
A couple of these questions have answers. Phew. Tom was in fact a Dharma member who switched to the Others' party with his now leader, Ben. His name 'Tom, mechanic' is on a Dharma board, his chest has a company logo and in 'La Fleur' Sawyer talks to younger Tom look-alike. When he was shot by Sawyer on the beach Juliet buried him and the Others near the jungle.
The Island was moved on New Year's Eve of 2004 so they were still officially in 2004 and then ended up in 1974. The Oceanic Six returned to the Island in December of 2007 based on the Jeremy Benthem passport. The official number of years they traveled is 30, not 31.
An interesting aspect of this episode for me is the idea of a painful self-fulfilling prophecy for Sayid. Sayid shoots little Ben, leading to him being healed by the Others, thus "losing his innocence". Ben grows up to be a crafty Machiavellian leader who uses Sayid as an assassin, causing him pain and torment - a job which ultimately pulls him back to the Island. Where he wants to shoot Ben... What kind of person would little Ben have been otherwise? Sure he was already talking to the Others, had an abusive past, and set the odd Dharma van on fire... But would he have been the same guy?
Yep, this took Ben down a darker path. Richard said he'd never be the same. It's irony that what Sayid did to prevent Ben from ....well, being Ben I guess.....actually caused it.
Jack was a man of Science at the beginning in seasons 1,2,3 and 4. Seeing the island disappear has surely shaken these certainties. He came back to help those he left behind. Not really for destiny as Locke thought, although the idea is starting to creep into Jack's mind. Coming back to 1977 surely eradicated his idea that the island was an island like the others. And since it's not like the others, it's like saying that maybe Locke was right, and therefore he's there for a purpose. Each event, now, is like a hammer blow in the already weakened wall of his Cartesian certainty.
Jack is the rational one, but he's really the cautious one. I mean, I don't believe elfs exist, but if you bring me one, I'll believe. The whole "island thing" is a little more complex. For John it was his healed back, for Jack is everything that happened in the last 3 years. The question is, how he's going to react to those new ideas?
Finally, a topic that really enjoy to discusse... The Technical terms are, Determinis to the approach for "whatever happened, happened" kind of the storyline of Harry Potter + the prisoner of azkaban.. Relativism: Back to the future argument.. And well, all this approaches, share some kind of paradox.. but well, that's another discussion.
This is a great episode and so often overlooked. I don't agree with what Cassidy said. Sawyer didn't jump off the chopper because of fear of being with Kate. I really believe that what Sawyer did was a selfless act. I remember that when you first started watching LOST, you weren't a fan of Jack's. You thought he wasn't interesting enough. I hope you're beginning to change you mind:)
I think Cassidy was partially right, considering Sawyer's own words to Kate. But I don't think Kate's heart was "broken" by Sawyer when he jumped off that helicopter. I think she used Aaron, because she saw him as a means to forget the trauma of being on the island and leaving it.
@@juanitajones6900 I agree. If anything, it was Kate who broke Sawyer's heart. It's clear though that Sawyer broke Cassidy's heart, and I think she's projecting that on Kate.
I have to say that I have to this point enjoyed that Kate's inability to commit to Jack or Sawyer has put her on her own. Jack's line, "You didn't like the old me" always gets me as being just so true. Very similar to how Kate's mom left Kate's not-dad, the army ranger.
I have a theory about Kate's relationships with Jack and Sawyer. And it has nothing to do with her being unable to decide between them. Back in "What Kate Did", I noticed that Kate was a very insecure woman. This insecurity led her to commit murder because she learned the truth about her paternity. This also led her to use Sawyer whenever her relationship with Jack hit troubled waters. This happened in mid-Season Two, when Jack was hanging around Ana-Lucia. This happened in Seasons Three and Four when Jack was becoming close with Juliet. Ever since she lost Aaron this season, Kate has been angry at Jack. Why, I don't know. He wasn't the one who finally convinced her to give up Aaron. And the moment she laid eyes on Sawyer after three years, she began trying to flirt with him. Only her discovery of his relationship with Juliet nipped her plans in the bud.
Respectfully disagree. I always hated that line, to be honest, as it is categorically untrue. But I view it as a reflection of Jack's insecurity and regret over how things turned out between them, something he even expresses later on in season 5 to Sawyer. Kate wanted to marry him. If that's not liking the old him, then what is?
@@vorbis4860 Based on what? Kate did want to marry him. There's no indication that Kate fell out of love with Jack. The falling-out they had in season 4 ends from her perspective with her saying that if Jack has problems, he needs to figure them out, because he can't be acting like that around Aaron. Which she is correct about; anyone in their right mind would agree that drunkenly yelling and fighting in front of a kid is detrimental to the kid. Say what you want about Kate in general, but that's a completely reasonable request. It's very different from saying "I categorically don't want to be with you". But at that point, Jack's downward spiral had already begun (with him seeing his dead dad, for example); the island was calling him and everyone back, which clearly affected him deeply. Nevertheless, that their engagement didn't work out is quite obviously something that still affects both her (as seen in the conversation between her and Juliet in this episode) and him (as seen when Jack speaks to Sawyer).
I believe Man of Science to Man of Faith is Jack's character arc for the whole series. And wow, Kate, Juliet and Sawyer MADE Ben to be who he is! The Other.
Why do fans believe that Ben is some ultimate monster? Why do they focus on his crimes and either ignore the terrible things that other characters - including the Oceanic 815 castaways - had done or try to give them some excuse? One of the worst things I have witnessed was Widmore's attempt to kidnap Ben and kill everyone else on the island through Keamy. No one ever brings this up. Is it so important that one character has to be the monster in the woodpile in order to cling to this one-dimensional morality for the show?
Blame the writers. They wrote it that way. They tried to make every character 3 dimensional from season 1-season 2. But the audience was looking for a character to villainize. So the writers came up with Benjamin Linus and wrote him as a dangerous person and made everyone around him refer to him as a horrible person.
@@DRush76 none of them except widmore & Sayid are as evil as him. You sound like your defending Ben or excusing him for it by pointing the fingers at others
@@rxtsec1 If you believe that I'm merely making excuses for Ben, then I find myself wondering if you really understand what I'm trying to say. Or . . . is that you don't want to understand? I don't know. And as of this moment, I think I no longer care.
Hey Neil I finally caught up to your reactions! Loved this one as always. You seemed very fixated on Young Ben's 'evilness' this episode, saying that he could not be compared to innocent Aaron because Young Ben was "already well on the path of being the Ben we all know". How accurate is that statement though? So far Young Ben is only guilty of wanting to run away from his physically and emotionally abusive father. Richard offered him a place if he was patient and so far Young Ben has just continued his life at Dharma with no change. The only 'bad' action he has done was releasing Sayid from prison. He has shown no inclination of wanting to hurt anyone, he just wants to find a place he belongs. So yes he is still very much an innocent kid, and he's about to lose all of that because Jack refused to help him. It's honestly really sad.
Good points. On the other hand, Ban is a kid who set a car on fire, aimed it at a house and helped a hostile prisoner escape. So he's surly on its way to become the Ben we know, its not something a normal kid would do
This obsession with labeling Ben as the show's main villain is ridiculous. And it's blinding a lot of people to the true aspect of this story. Ben hasn't been the main villain since late Season 3.
Neil your math is slightly off. It was 2004 and 2007 not 2005 and 2008. The show has told use it was 30 years ago / 30 in the future not 31. Also young Ben Linus was a nice, sweet, innocent child before Sayid shot him, as Richard said "if we take him he'll lose his innocents and never be the same".
I agree, Ben Linus as a child was all those things and most definitely innocent as a child. The only reason he wanted to with the others was because he didn't feel loved or wanted from his father, not because he wanted to be bad. His horrible father pushed him away!
I'm sorry Neil the 31 thng is completely wrong... For one, the Ajira flight canonically took off in 2007 ... but for another it was barely 2005 when the flashes started it was like January 1 or 2. The creators were clearly trying to keep all the time travel in as much synch as possible... 1954, 1974, 2004 .... 1977, 2007 ... the only odd time was 1988, which narratively made sense because they wanted to show Danielle coming to the island. At this point we the viewers knew the "present" was 2007 when we originally watched the show, so I'm not quite sure why at this point in your reviews you stuck to your guns that it was 2008.
In one day Sawyer's so called leadership is already crashing. Not the leader he thought he was. There is a difference between being a leader vs being head of security at Dharmaville, Club Med. LOL. As the groups re-unite more chaos follows. That's the beauty within LOST. It's all about extremes. You are on point with Jack's ongoing journey and hope you like what you find in the end. It's quite interesting for all the LOST characters.
His leadership is crashing because of the stupidity of the other plain crash survivors. If Sayid wasn't being hard headed and didn't kill Benjamin Linus we wouldn't have been in this mess.
@@x-man9473 His leadership is crashing because he made the mistake of creating a deception that would allow him and his fellow survivors to enjoy a bed, square meals and perhaps a job. Sawyer and his fellow time traveling survivors had been living a lie for three years - just as the Oceanic Six have been either living a lie or wallowing in desires for revenge. The Oceanic Six had already experienced the fallout from their bad decisions. Now it's time for Sawyer, Juliet and the other time skippers to the same.
Jack and the others had went back 30 years in time, not 31. I refuse to feel any sympathy for Kate after what she did. I think Hurley is a moron. How could Miles stand him? Both Jack and Sayid are monsters after what they did.
Remember that Ben gave Kate a pretty dress and a pleasant meal. I think that was honoring her for caring for him when he was shot. Also, Jacob has a list with their names on it, and he operated off that list. He knew they were special, and having faint memories of them would explain why they fascinated him so much.
But Richard literally said that Ben won't remember any of this. And Jacob's list... Episode 3.06: "Shephard wasn't even on Jacob's list." Episode 3.12: "MIKHAIL: I misspoke. What I meant to say is you are not capable of understanding. KATE: And why am I not capable? SAYID: Kate. MIKHAIL: Because you are not on the list. KATE: What list?" So Jack and Kate weren't even on that list... makes you wonder.
Come on, Neil... "Is that such a terrible thing?" He's a good kid. If he were a bad kid, I would maybe agree. But this young Ben... he isn't the Ben we know yet. And maybe if Jack helped, Ben wouldn't become the monster everyone thinks he is.
Ben is no more of a monster than Jack, Sayid, Kate, Widmore or many other characters. And their actions (or lack of actions) in this episode and in the past struck me as repellent as some of Ben, Kate and Sawyer's past actions. By the way, EVERYONE loses his or her innocence. It's called "growing up".
Everyone loses their innocence. It's called growing up and becoming aware of how chaotic this world truly is. Losing one's innocence isn't about becoming evil. Speaking of evil, what led other characters to commit evil or give in to evil? You know, characters like Jack, Kate, Locke, Sayid, Sawyer, Jin, Charlie, Ana-Lucia, to revoke Disney’s copyrights, as Republicans are seeking to outdo each other in attacking the “woke” corporation. Eko, Shannon, Boone, Michael, Juliet, and Charles Widmore. None of them were dipped into a healing pool inside a temple.
I have a few comments about this episode. One, why did you suggest that they should let Ben die? Most of the characters on this show are NOT innocents, aside from a small handful. Two, it's about time Kate realized that using Aaron to comfort her following the island's trauma was the wrong thing to do. And she had finally did the right thing by handing Aaron over to his grandmother, even if it nearly took her three years. Three, Sayid's attempted murder of Ben and Jack's refusal to help him were some of the most repellent acts I have witnessed on this show. And four, the idea that had Ben lost his innocence because the Others healed him in the Temple is ridiculous to me and a sign of poor writing. Ben was bound to loose his innocence like all or most human beings. It's called "growing up".
I agree the survivors are not saints however when you compare what they've done to what Ben has done there's no comparison his deeds were done out of pure malice because he values his power over everything else.
@@nevermind6378 Locke had manipulated Sawyer into killing Anthony Cooper because he couldn't do it himself and he wanted to be the Others' leader. Widmore had sent Keamy and his thugs to not only snatch Ben, but also kill the castaways. Apparently, Ben was not the only one who valued power.
@@juanitajones6900 I have no doubt that Widmore valued power and I'm not so sure he's any better than Ben. Locke too I believe had some love of power and we saw that during season 4 when the camps split but when it comes to Locke manipulating Sawyer to kill Anthony Copper, well didn't Ben tell him he had to do it knowing Locke probably would not have the courage to do it and thus Ben would be able to hold on to his power and also wasn't it Richard's idea to have Locke manipulate Sawyer because they wanted a change in leadership?
@@nevermind6378 Locke had a choice. He didn't have to manipulate Sawyer. But he did . . . because he wanted to be the new leader of the Others. Ben and Richard did not twist his arm. Locke could have walked away from it all and he didn't. He doesn't get an excuse.
This show is about extremes and pushes ethics and ones morality envelope with these characters. Interesting to read perspectives that create moral equivalencies within these dark angels. Do you look at ones past as definition to excuse one's future actions?
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
The Miles-Hurley conversation is one of my favorites in the entire show.
Yes, I love those two together in all their scenes.
The Hurley & Miles convo is just so perfect. It's like the audience is speaking directly to the writers.
Also, zen Jack is best Jack.
“Everything will happen as it always has."
You guys did this to Ben! 😍
Jack: You didn't like the old me, Kate.
Classic line ❤
This is Jack's insecurity going full tilt.
@@juanitajones6900 Respectfully that is not insecurity. That is Jack's awakening. He's done with the brunette's chaos. He's literally a man to himself and truly lives to the mantra, "he walks amongst us but is not one of us".
@@TomOnTheRun Hmmm . . . But this was not about the chaos caused by Kate. This was chaos caused by Sayid. And Kate wasn't the only one who had disapproved of Jack's decision not to operate on Ben.
Jack still loves kate but he's gonna do what he thinks is right as a man of Faith
@@rxtsec1 I don't regard Jack's refusal as an "act of faith". I don't think he wanted to save Ben . . . pure and simple.
This is Kate's best episode, she changed because of her love for that little boy, by turning herself in and facing the consequences of everything she did, by giving him up to his grandmother and going to find his real mother. I trully think that Aaron is the love of her life.
Also, Ben wasn't evil before, he was just hurt and damaged by his father, he only changed after Richard took him.
Ben already wanted to be with the others though
You could argue that Kate did what she always do, she run away. Not only she felt bad about taking the kid, but she could easily end up in jail. So she run away once again.
Also, I think the show tries to imply (this might be a spoiler!)
...that maybe getting resurrected dosn't actually "turn you evil", its just a believe that the people on the temple had. Maybe it just "resets" everything about you. At least thats how I always seen it.
Regardless, I don't have a positive view of Kate's time with Aaron, especially since she kept Aaron from his grandmother for selfish reasons and for nearly 3 years.
@@Pir-o Kate didn't just 'run away' though. She went back to the island specifically to find Claire and bring her home to Aaron. I don't see how anyone can shape that any other way.
@@rxtsec1 Can't say that I blame Ben for that. Who wouldn't want to get away from an abusive father like Roger Linus?
I think Cassidy’s assessment is pure projection, Kate was always more emotionally invested in Jack
Cassidy was right that Kate had used Aaron to help her ignore whatever emotional turmoil she was experiencing while leaving the island. However, I agree that Kate was always more emotionally invested in Jack.
Even though this episode says she kept him because of Sawyer which I'm inclined to believe
Jack even made the point kate didn't like the old Jack & she begged jack to operate on Sawyer
@@rxtsec1 I don't believe it. I had noticed in one of the flashforwards for the Season Four finale, Kate had a photograph of herself, Aaron and Jack on the mantlepiece above her fireplace. This scene was featured after hers and Jack's breakup. Kate's continuing possession of that photo makes me believe that the only two people she truly loved were Aaron and Jack.
@@juanitajones6900 yeah she used Aaron to move on. By that time she had no choice but to choose jack with 3 years and having a relationship with him and it still didn't work out. In truth Jack always wanted her more than Sawyer ever did anyways which this episode also pointed out.
21:10 As the title - and Miles - suggests, what happened, happened. Ben was shot in 1977 as a kid, that much is fact as is the fact that it was Kate and Sawyer who helped save him. As Richard said though, Ben won't remember that.
From 3.20 - "BEN: This is where I came from, John. These are my people. The DHARMA Initiative. They came here seeking harmony, but they couldn't even coexist with the Island's original inhabitants. And when it became clear that one side had to go, one side had to be purged, I did what I had to do. I was one of the people that was smart enough to make sure that I didn't end up in that ditch. Which makes me considerably smarter than you, John."
I was ONE OF THE PEOPLE that was smart enough... so several Others were Dharma folks. My guess is that Tom was another. He made comments how the bears only needed 2 hours to figure out the Hydra cage thingy. How would he know if not for him being ex-Dharma?
Good point about Tom.
I always thought Tom was just busting sawyers chops, but it is possible
@@marty13612 I don't recall any confirmation that Tom Friendly used to be part of the Dharma Initiative. Ethan was born into it. As for Mikhail . . . I don't know.
Little baby Goodspeed didn't end up in the ditch either, he gets a nice view Across The Sea instead! :P As an aside do we know where Tom & Co ended up? Either they're buried on the beach in the "bad guy" graveyard with Ethan or if they were just left on the beach somewhere nearby the 815 camp maybe Richard and the Others went and retrieved them when everyone else vanished during the time skipping when there was some peace and quiet?
A couple of these questions have answers. Phew. Tom was in fact a Dharma member who switched to the Others' party with his now leader, Ben. His name 'Tom, mechanic' is on a Dharma board, his chest has a company logo and in 'La Fleur' Sawyer talks to younger Tom look-alike. When he was shot by Sawyer on the beach Juliet buried him and the Others near the jungle.
The Island was moved on New Year's Eve of 2004 so they were still officially in 2004 and then ended up in 1974. The Oceanic Six returned to the Island in December of 2007 based on the Jeremy Benthem passport. The official number of years they traveled is 30, not 31.
An interesting aspect of this episode for me is the idea of a painful self-fulfilling prophecy for Sayid. Sayid shoots little Ben, leading to him being healed by the Others, thus "losing his innocence". Ben grows up to be a crafty Machiavellian leader who uses Sayid as an assassin, causing him pain and torment - a job which ultimately pulls him back to the Island. Where he wants to shoot Ben...
What kind of person would little Ben have been otherwise? Sure he was already talking to the Others, had an abusive past, and set the odd Dharma van on fire... But would he have been the same guy?
all that energy and effort in examining the subtleties of time travel and the consequences of dead young Ben ... all for naught!
'Ben is dead.' then 'Of course they weren't going to let young Ben die'
I was invited to the set for this episode
Thank God for whoever decided to pair up Hurley and Miles. They play off each other perfectly.
The passengers of 316 except jack, kate, sayid and hurley are in 2007... It's three years from 2004 and 30 years from 1977.
When you think about it, Ben is the way he is because of Sayid.
And sayid did it because of Big Ben
Yep, this took Ben down a darker path. Richard said he'd never be the same. It's irony that what Sayid did to prevent Ben from ....well, being Ben I guess.....actually caused it.
You can't put a whole personality on only one thing. Plus, the abuse from his dad messed his head up long before that. Deeply.
Jack was a man of Science at the beginning in seasons 1,2,3 and 4. Seeing the island disappear has surely shaken these certainties. He came back to help those he left behind. Not really for destiny as Locke thought, although the idea is starting to creep into Jack's mind. Coming back to 1977 surely eradicated his idea that the island was an island like the others. And since it's not like the others, it's like saying that maybe Locke was right, and therefore he's there for a purpose. Each event, now, is like a hammer blow in the already weakened wall of his Cartesian certainty.
Jack is the rational one, but he's really the cautious one. I mean, I don't believe elfs exist, but if you bring me one, I'll believe. The whole "island thing" is a little more complex. For John it was his healed back, for Jack is everything that happened in the last 3 years. The question is, how he's going to react to those new ideas?
@@JacopoBasanisi Spot on, Trust but verify
Remember that Ethan is a central character in "Raised by Another".
In Jughead, when Dan was telling Ellie about the Hydrogen Bomb, she said it was 1954.
John also askes Richard what year it is and is told the same thing.
Finally, a topic that really enjoy to discusse...
The Technical terms are, Determinis to the approach for "whatever happened, happened" kind of the storyline of Harry Potter + the prisoner of azkaban..
Relativism: Back to the future argument..
And well, all this approaches, share some kind of paradox.. but well, that's another discussion.
This is a great episode and so often overlooked. I don't agree with what Cassidy said. Sawyer didn't jump off the chopper because of fear of being with Kate. I really believe that what Sawyer did was a selfless act.
I remember that when you first started watching LOST, you weren't a fan of Jack's. You thought he wasn't interesting enough. I hope you're beginning to change you mind:)
I think Cassidy was partially right, considering Sawyer's own words to Kate. But I don't think Kate's heart was "broken" by Sawyer when he jumped off that helicopter. I think she used Aaron, because she saw him as a means to forget the trauma of being on the island and leaving it.
Cassidy was oozing bitterness.
@@juanitajones6900 I agree. If anything, it was Kate who broke Sawyer's heart. It's clear though that Sawyer broke Cassidy's heart, and I think she's projecting that on Kate.
@@MarieAnne. I agree with you.
31 can be whatever you want it to be, Neil. You do you.
I have to say that I have to this point enjoyed that Kate's inability to commit to Jack or Sawyer has put her on her own. Jack's line, "You didn't like the old me" always gets me as being just so true. Very similar to how Kate's mom left Kate's not-dad, the army ranger.
I have a theory about Kate's relationships with Jack and Sawyer. And it has nothing to do with her being unable to decide between them. Back in "What Kate Did", I noticed that Kate was a very insecure woman. This insecurity led her to commit murder because she learned the truth about her paternity. This also led her to use Sawyer whenever her relationship with Jack hit troubled waters. This happened in mid-Season Two, when Jack was hanging around Ana-Lucia. This happened in Seasons Three and Four when Jack was becoming close with Juliet. Ever since she lost Aaron this season, Kate has been angry at Jack. Why, I don't know. He wasn't the one who finally convinced her to give up Aaron. And the moment she laid eyes on Sawyer after three years, she began trying to flirt with him. Only her discovery of his relationship with Juliet nipped her plans in the bud.
Respectfully disagree. I always hated that line, to be honest, as it is categorically untrue. But I view it as a reflection of Jack's insecurity and regret over how things turned out between them, something he even expresses later on in season 5 to Sawyer. Kate wanted to marry him. If that's not liking the old him, then what is?
@@tocraneandcrane She wanted to marry him for like a day.
@@vorbis4860 Based on what? Kate did want to marry him. There's no indication that Kate fell out of love with Jack. The falling-out they had in season 4 ends from her perspective with her saying that if Jack has problems, he needs to figure them out, because he can't be acting like that around Aaron. Which she is correct about; anyone in their right mind would agree that drunkenly yelling and fighting in front of a kid is detrimental to the kid. Say what you want about Kate in general, but that's a completely reasonable request. It's very different from saying "I categorically don't want to be with you". But at that point, Jack's downward spiral had already begun (with him seeing his dead dad, for example); the island was calling him and everyone back, which clearly affected him deeply. Nevertheless, that their engagement didn't work out is quite obviously something that still affects both her (as seen in the conversation between her and Juliet in this episode) and him (as seen when Jack speaks to Sawyer).
@@tocraneandcrane Ok. 😶🙄
I believe Man of Science to Man of Faith is Jack's character arc for the whole series. And wow, Kate, Juliet and Sawyer MADE Ben to be who he is! The Other.
Technically Jack did - by refusing to fix young Ben.
@@russellmoir2776 more Sayid did by shooting him in the first place
@@ptitepeluche05 or Ben by giving Sayid reason to do so
Haha. My head hurts 🤣
@@bonebonebonebonebonebone2094 also Wildmore gave Sayid the motivation to work for Ben when he odered to kill Nadya
Jughead was 54
Because Locke asked Richard
Locke says 2 year from now I'll be born
kate is the best 💗
Why do fans believe that Ben is some ultimate monster? Why do they focus on his crimes and either ignore the terrible things that other characters - including the Oceanic 815 castaways - had done or try to give them some excuse? One of the worst things I have witnessed was Widmore's attempt to kidnap Ben and kill everyone else on the island through Keamy. No one ever brings this up. Is it so important that one character has to be the monster in the woodpile in order to cling to this one-dimensional morality for the show?
Blame the writers. They wrote it that way. They tried to make every character 3 dimensional from season 1-season 2. But the audience was looking for a character to villainize. So the writers came up with Benjamin Linus and wrote him as a dangerous person and made everyone around him refer to him as a horrible person.
Doesn't excuse that Ben did very horrible things
@@rxtsec1 And Ben's actions do not excuse the horrible actions of the other characters.
@@DRush76 none of them except widmore & Sayid are as evil as him. You sound like your defending Ben or excusing him for it by pointing the fingers at others
@@rxtsec1 If you believe that I'm merely making excuses for Ben, then I find myself wondering if you really understand what I'm trying to say. Or . . . is that you don't want to understand? I don't know. And as of this moment, I think I no longer care.
Hey Neil I finally caught up to your reactions! Loved this one as always.
You seemed very fixated on Young Ben's 'evilness' this episode, saying that he could not be compared to innocent Aaron because Young Ben was "already well on the path of being the Ben we all know". How accurate is that statement though? So far Young Ben is only guilty of wanting to run away from his physically and emotionally abusive father. Richard offered him a place if he was patient and so far Young Ben has just continued his life at Dharma with no change. The only 'bad' action he has done was releasing Sayid from prison. He has shown no inclination of wanting to hurt anyone, he just wants to find a place he belongs. So yes he is still very much an innocent kid, and he's about to lose all of that because Jack refused to help him. It's honestly really sad.
Good points. On the other hand, Ban is a kid who set a car on fire, aimed it at a house and helped a hostile prisoner escape. So he's surly on its way to become the Ben we know, its not something a normal kid would do
This obsession with labeling Ben as the show's main villain is ridiculous. And it's blinding a lot of people to the true aspect of this story. Ben hasn't been the main villain since late Season 3.
@@DRush76yes Ben is not the antagonist
Neil your math is slightly off. It was 2004 and 2007 not 2005 and 2008.
The show has told use it was 30 years ago / 30 in the future not 31.
Also young Ben Linus was a nice, sweet, innocent child before Sayid shot him, as Richard said "if we take him he'll lose his innocents and never be the same".
I agree, Ben Linus as a child was all those things and most definitely innocent as a child. The only reason he wanted to with the others was because he didn't feel loved or wanted from his father, not because he wanted to be bad. His horrible father pushed him away!
@@Tusc9969 Another question I have is . . . exactly how "evil" are the Others? What is the motivation behind their behavior?
I'm sorry Neil the 31 thng is completely wrong... For one, the Ajira flight canonically took off in 2007 ... but for another it was barely 2005 when the flashes started it was like January 1 or 2.
The creators were clearly trying to keep all the time travel in as much synch as possible... 1954, 1974, 2004 .... 1977, 2007 ... the only odd time was 1988, which narratively made sense because they wanted to show Danielle coming to the island.
At this point we the viewers knew the "present" was 2007 when we originally watched the show, so I'm not quite sure why at this point in your reviews you stuck to your guns that it was 2008.
Ben was also in the Dharma Initiative, so Ethan could have been too
Best Kate episode
Roger Linus vs Uncle Rico
Jughead year is 1954
So in a way I guess Ben really was born on the island
I want to hit the like botton but it says 108, so I'll wait.
They went back 30 years. 2008 has never been an year in the show idk where you got that
In one day Sawyer's so called leadership is already crashing. Not the leader he thought he was. There is a difference between being a leader vs being head of security at Dharmaville, Club Med. LOL. As the groups re-unite more chaos follows. That's the beauty within LOST. It's all about extremes. You are on point with Jack's ongoing journey and hope you like what you find in the end. It's quite interesting for all the LOST characters.
His leadership is crashing because of the stupidity of the other plain crash survivors. If Sayid wasn't being hard headed and didn't kill Benjamin Linus we wouldn't have been in this mess.
@@x-man9473 His leadership is crashing because he made the mistake of creating a deception that would allow him and his fellow survivors to enjoy a bed, square meals and perhaps a job. Sawyer and his fellow time traveling survivors had been living a lie for three years - just as the Oceanic Six have been either living a lie or wallowing in desires for revenge. The Oceanic Six had already experienced the fallout from their bad decisions. Now it's time for Sawyer, Juliet and the other time skippers to the same.
Sawyer did the best he could & he's done a lot of growing up
The beginning of Jack Locke
Jack and the others had went back 30 years in time, not 31.
I refuse to feel any sympathy for Kate after what she did. I think Hurley is a moron. How could Miles stand him? Both Jack and Sayid are monsters after what they did.
Remember that Ben gave Kate a pretty dress and a pleasant meal. I think that was honoring her for caring for him when he was shot.
Also, Jacob has a list with their names on it, and he operated off that list.
He knew they were special, and having faint memories of them would explain why they fascinated him so much.
But Richard literally said that Ben won't remember any of this.
And Jacob's list...
Episode 3.06: "Shephard wasn't even on Jacob's list."
Episode 3.12: "MIKHAIL: I misspoke. What I meant to say is you are not capable of understanding.
KATE: And why am I not capable?
SAYID: Kate.
MIKHAIL: Because you are not on the list.
KATE: What list?"
So Jack and Kate weren't even on that list... makes you wonder.
Come on, Neil... "Is that such a terrible thing?" He's a good kid. If he were a bad kid, I would maybe agree. But this young Ben... he isn't the Ben we know yet. And maybe if Jack helped, Ben wouldn't become the monster everyone thinks he is.
Ben is no more of a monster than Jack, Sayid, Kate, Widmore or many other characters. And their actions (or lack of actions) in this episode and in the past struck me as repellent as some of Ben, Kate and Sawyer's past actions. By the way, EVERYONE loses his or her innocence. It's called "growing up".
I wouldn't save Hitler
@@rxtsec1 would he let him into art school?
Your video is 31 minutes long. Fate.
Hahaha, good call!
Everyone loses their innocence. It's called growing up and becoming aware of how chaotic this world truly is. Losing one's innocence isn't about becoming evil. Speaking of evil, what led other characters to commit evil or give in to evil? You know, characters like Jack, Kate, Locke, Sayid, Sawyer, Jin, Charlie, Ana-Lucia, to revoke Disney’s copyrights, as Republicans are seeking to outdo each other in attacking the “woke” corporation. Eko, Shannon, Boone, Michael, Juliet, and Charles Widmore. None of them were dipped into a healing pool inside a temple.
What on earth is that weird bit in the middle of your comment? I don't remember that happening in Lost...
I have a few comments about this episode. One, why did you suggest that they should let Ben die? Most of the characters on this show are NOT innocents, aside from a small handful. Two, it's about time Kate realized that using Aaron to comfort her following the island's trauma was the wrong thing to do. And she had finally did the right thing by handing Aaron over to his grandmother, even if it nearly took her three years. Three, Sayid's attempted murder of Ben and Jack's refusal to help him were some of the most repellent acts I have witnessed on this show. And four, the idea that had Ben lost his innocence because the Others healed him in the Temple is ridiculous to me and a sign of poor writing. Ben was bound to loose his innocence like all or most human beings. It's called "growing up".
I agree the survivors are not saints however when you compare what they've done to what Ben has done there's no comparison his deeds were done out of pure malice because he values his power over everything else.
@@nevermind6378 Locke had manipulated Sawyer into killing Anthony Cooper because he couldn't do it himself and he wanted to be the Others' leader. Widmore had sent Keamy and his thugs to not only snatch Ben, but also kill the castaways. Apparently, Ben was not the only one who valued power.
@@juanitajones6900 I have no doubt that Widmore valued power and I'm not so sure he's any better than Ben. Locke too I believe had some love of power and we saw that during season 4 when the camps split but when it comes to Locke manipulating Sawyer to kill Anthony Copper, well didn't Ben tell him he had to do it knowing Locke probably would not have the courage to do it and thus Ben would be able to hold on to his power and also wasn't it Richard's idea to have Locke manipulate Sawyer because they wanted a change in leadership?
@@nevermind6378 Locke had a choice. He didn't have to manipulate Sawyer. But he did . . . because he wanted to be the new leader of the Others. Ben and Richard did not twist his arm. Locke could have walked away from it all and he didn't. He doesn't get an excuse.
This show is about extremes and pushes ethics and ones morality envelope with these characters. Interesting to read perspectives that create moral equivalencies within these dark angels. Do you look at ones past as definition to excuse one's future actions?