What if Cortez Lost to the Aztecs?
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2024
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When Cortez came across the Aztecs, it was a clash between two worlds. And Cortez's won. But what if he didn't. What if the Aztecs beat the Spanish and held on? How drastically would this have changed colonization in Latin America. Would there be Latin America?
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Chapters:
Intro: 00:00
Pondering: 02:03
Prophecy: 04:54
The Aztecs: 06:41
The Columbian Exchange: 10:36
Spain Comes Back?: 11:30
Charles V: 12:54
Privateers: 16:01
Scramble: 19:20
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i dont like warpath :( their ads are pretty B A D
oh yeah also I never played warpath
Please continue the Altremer series, I want a new episode please
Can you do what if lemuria was real like your M.U. video
The fact that a brutally cutthroat conquistador was also originally going to be a lawyer shouldn't surprise me.
Has major lawyery vibes
His main success came from navigating through Mesoamerican society and convincing everyone to fight for him, so it’s not too surprising.
Man u dont know history of México stfu
@@carlbates9110 Ah, he took the Charisma build run. Excellent choice.
@@theshamurai32pretty sure it’s a vats crit build
has anyone else been rewatching this dude talk about transformers for so long that you forgot he's a historian lol
True
I love Pointlesshub. Maybe even more than AlternateHistoryHub.
lmaoooooo
*Yes.*
Is he a historian tho? Pretty sure hes a RUclipsr.
@@darkclownKellenboth
One major element I think is missing from this conversation is that, without Spanish conquest, the environmental history of Tenochtitlan massively changes. Tenochtitlan was an artificial island in the middle of Lake Texcoco (what's now present day Mexico City). During the Spanish siege, Cortez destroyed the dams that allowed the Aztecs to control the lake's water levels and they were never rebuilt. Following the conquest, this had massive implications as it resulted in multiple floodings of Mexico City, with one being so bad, that it was partially flooded for five years.
Because of the persistent flooding, the Spanish said, "Oh, to hell with it," and proceed to drain the ENTIRE LAKE, and what was left was a scattering of salt marshes. This has had ecological ramifications to this day, with the valley growing increasingly arid, and city sinking a full 33ft and is now under the water table. It also caused the outright extinction of multiple species endemic to the lake.
Yes! I was thinking about this the whole time. If the lake didn't need to be drained or the dams were never destroyed, the ecology of the region would have been dramatically different to today. Not just this, but if the conquest didn't succeed, it may have given the Aztecs more of an opportunity to fortify the city and the region. The idea of them increasing their iron/steel industry in the wake of this event could also lead to an expansion of architectural designs and improvements in the lake.
I imagined what ever modern state in this timeline that hold mexico city would look the same before it was drained but most the actual city in the edge of the lake, while the island become a tourist district
@@Vesdus It would destroy large parts of Mexico City
man i just love the absolute swiss cheese brain of old colonizers. "this lake is troublesome for me in the short term. *destroy it.* " "this ecosystem is being carefully managed by the native population so that all of it's creatures thrive in harmony? cool. but what if we just started moving everything all over the place to our liking?" "these lands are important to the cultivation of food for the population in this area? lame. gay. turn it into something else." "what do you mean you people don't like eachother? shut up you're the same now."
*centuries later*
"WHOOPS! seems like our ancestors actually doomed this land like a motherfucking cursed blight and that's why everything catches on fire all the time, the air is toxic, nothing grows, there's no water, and the water that does exist is poisoned. oh well, at least we'll all die in a horrific mutual omnicide war before we're even able to experience it!"
@@Vesdus Basically everything that isn't downtown and certain neighborhoods which used to be small city states would be underwater.
The fact that the Spanish king wanted to have Pizarro executed, because he killed the Incan ruler, really shows what he was actually thinking about the conquistadors
Pizarro was killed by his former friend Diego de Almagro after trying to disband the Encomienda System or some disagreement about the loot. The Almagrista side refused to follow the law and killed in a gruesome way one of the first Peruvian Viceroys who was trying to reinforce the law (all of this while resisting the Vilcabamba Incan siege of Lima), and at the end Diego de Almagro was defeated, beheaded and his head hunged on a pike to warn any conquistador trying to apply encomienda (they later implemented the Mita system through the allied native chiefs, which was the Incan forced labour to work on the mines)
IIRC Charles loved the shipments of gold he was getting, but also had a very low opinion of the conquistadors, whom he considered basically lawless cutthroats. Charles was deeply devout, and wanted to see the natives Christianized and brought to the fold as his subjects, not enslaved or mass murdered.
People need to realize that the conquistadors were god awful to everyone. Yes the aztecs were violent, but the conquistadors just treated their allies like shit. These are the people who kept inviting people to negotiations to surprise massacre them and shot civilians at parties. The Inca were quite grateful to the Spanish and welcomed them with open arms, only to be backstabbed and have their queen assaulted. The native allies in mexico converted and had churches built on top of every temple and were treated like lesser due to a racial caste system they introduced. The reason the virgin of Guadalupe is so huge in mexico is because it showed the people there that this new God did care about them and love them. Yep, despite converting the people desperately needed anything to show this new religion about love also applied to them. Mexico had multiple revolutions thanks to how bad things were there.
@@LuiBei1994Most conquistadors were merciless people, I agree, but ironically I would say Cortez and Pizarro were the “lesser evil” among of them. You have Nuño de Guzmán, Diego de Almagro, Pánfilo de Narváez, Cristobal de Oñate or Cristobal de Olid doing nasty shit that is overlookef, and the hardest thing Cortez did was kill Cuauhtemoc (and he was prohibited of going back to New Spain for that; the Cholula Affair is said to be adviced by his Tlaxcaltec allies since Cholula was a loyal Aztec client city), and Pizarro doing the same with Atahualpa (although he literally regretted of that but Atahualpa ordered his brother Huascar to be killed, since he was ussurping the throne, what Incan queen are you talking about?). Even the king of Spain had to stop the conquest to seek if it was fair or catch out some conquistadors like Diego de Almagro
About the Casta System, the Spanish literally relied on local nobilities to impose their rule; otherwise they would be overnumbered and expelled. Some city-states addressed the King of Spain for privileges after helping the conquistadors (most notably the Tlaxcaltecs were the most granted). The daughter of Montezuma became one of the greatest landlords of the Anahuac Valley, the son of Tangaxoan king of the Tarascans helped Vasco de Quiroga to pacify Michoacan after the mess of Nuño de Guzmán, there were plenty of Incan descendants who were treated as a Spanish noble would be treated. The Tupac Amaru II uprising was ironically supressed by local armies guided by local lords who were also seeking for the Spanish favor. There were more free black people in the Spanish Americas than in the 13 Colonies, some of them were Conquistadors who could pay for their liberty with the loot, some others were rewarded their own free towns like San Lorenzo de los Negros after Yanga’s uprising, the Fort Mosé (comprised of fleeing slaves from Georgia), or the black caciques of Esmeraldas, a mixed black/indigenous settlement.
Despite all of this, it was still an unequal society for our eyes, with abuses, hierarchies and exploitation. It had to be reformed, it would happen sooner or later, the Bourbons messed the relative order and autonomy the Viceroyalties had, and although this was one of the causes of the Hispanic American independences, the way those happened and the resulting governments just worsened the problem by far
@@LuiBei1994 Where do you get all that?
The Conquistadors didn't treat their allies like shit. The Tlaxcalans received special status, the indigenous nobility all received honors and lands, Chales V even gave many cities their own Coats of Arms, like Tlaxcala or Texcoco.
The Conquistadors were not the ones who started with the ambushes, many Conquistadors and Explorers before Cortés were killed in parties or in their sleep mostly by Mayans but also other peoples. Cortés avoided this fate at Cholula.
Natives were treated lesser, they were given autonomy and they could only be tried in native courts. There was not a caste system as the one in India or Japan. And the caste system was centuries after the Conquistadors.
Many conquistadors actually married native women, both commoners and nobles, some lesser nobility women wento to marry native nobles, but this happened more often in Perú (as far as I know).
Revolutions in México were centuries after the Conquistadors, even the Cristero wars were Catholics fighting the government, nothing to do with Conquistadors.
If they created a series about Cortez, an ordinary person would find it unrealistic due to the level of plot armor
Cortez was just insanely lucky
If he was darker skinned and transgender Disney would make him a hero in a new film😂
Fiction has to make sense.
History is not bound by such restrictions.
Pizarro in Peru would be an asspull powered Mary Sue by those standards lol
If I had a nickle for everytime a small troop of Spanish Conquistadors ventured into a far away, heavily militarized empire's territory and overthrew the Emperor enslaving the entire native population without dying first, I'd have two nickles. Which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice.
You didn't mention disputed historical figures Miguel and Tulio. What if they actually warned the Aztecs about Cortez instead of just stealing all the gold from El Dorado? (assuming they're real)
The real questions that need answering.
Both. They're both
It still boggles my mind that Cortez and Whinny the Pooh share the same VA
If we answer seriously and the Aztec would believe them it would probably cause the Aztec to just kill them when they try something funny but irl what made the conquistadors successful was that everyone hated the Aztec including lots of the mexica people
@@will_from_pacortes please. Im so done with americans calling him cortez. Its cortes, from the spanish word for courteous. Im sorry you had to bear the burden of being the one to hear this when everyone is saying it lol
It’s also worth noting that Cortes could not have won without his native allies. It wasn’t “thousands of Aztecs vs 600 Spanish,” it was “thousands of Aztecs vs 600 Spanish and thousands of other indigenous.”
Exactly, the Conquistadors were not alone, their allies basically did all the fighting, the Conquistadors did logistics
Yes, this. There were a lot of indigenous traitors in Mexico at the time. A lot of people didn’t like the Aztec Empire and sided with their eventual enslavers over their neighbors.
There’s a lesson in that somewhere …
@@brightharbor_. you comment that as if the aztecs were innocent neighbours wtf, no the aztec empire was super powerful and would bully the other neighbouring tribes and villages to submission by demanding many payments and tributes, often in the form of human sacrifice. no one liked that
@@snubnosedmonke You say that as if the Spanish Empire *wasn’t* equally if not more powerful and brutal. Hindsight is 20/20, I know, but any Indigenous person can see the better decision, in retrospect, was to back the Aztecs (or anyone who could stop the Conquistadors).
@@brightharbor_and then why Tlaxcaltecs liked more the Christian god more than giving blood to Huitzilopochtli?
Okay, so...the idea of an almost fusion of Aztecian and early iron age designs sounds like the COOLEST aesthetic for a fantasy world inspired by their mythos. You just dropped that bombshell in the middle of this vid, and I respect that.
This would be so cool to see properly visualized by someone
Yhea like a mini series like for all mankind, where is alt-history @@umad42
It happened in OTL, but it’s not so much talked about.
Surviving Aztec soldiers also marched along the Spaniards towards Guatemala and even reached Florida exploring the coasts for the Spanish Crown, so they somehow had to blend the use of Mesoamerican and European equipment, and when the Spaniards needed to rest in Tlaxcala they were resuplied with the Nahua cotton armor and used wooden shields. It would be so umpractical to wear fully metal armor amid the tropical jungles and later heights of the Anahuac Valley,
There are reports about the Aztecs using crossbows defending against the Hispano-Tlaxcaltecs during Tenochtitlán siege, so the idea of Spaniards (or Nahua) using each other equipment is more realistic than uchronic
“Aztecian” is not a word
While they weren't the Aztecs, that part of the video reminded me of this one part in Blood Meridian where "The Kid" & his US filibuster group were attacked by a Comanche warband with one of them was described as to having worn an old conquistador armor.
The importance of allies is very important, and everyone seems to ignore it hence they repeat “only 600” or “only 300” conquistadors for the Aztec and Inca conquests.
As impressive the technological advantage maybe you’ll will eventually run out of ammo and will easily get lost and ambushed easily in unfamiliar lands.
Examples are the Mapuche and Apache bested the Spanish that they gave up
The Navajo are another good example. These examples are especially poignant because they all happened in harsh places such as the Sonoran desert or Patagonia, areas that make logistics especially difficult. Could imagine the Southern Mexican jungles to be pretty similar.
Mapuche even stole technology (and horses) and learned pretty darn well how to use it.
And those allies were eager to help Cortez, because the Aztecs were an absolutely brutal empire that would have been right at home with Josef Mengele or Imperial Japanese Army Unit 731. The world was well rid of the Aztecs.
@@bluemarlin8138XDDDDDDD
Aztecs were just religious fanatics. Unit 731 were fully knowing what the fuck they were doing
@@bluemarlin8138 You can't say that. Everybody knows "white man bad, everybody else good". That's what modern western "unbiased" history looks like anyway.
The problem with the idea is that after the first battles with other tribes they quickly discovered that neither the Spaniards nor the horses were immortal, and the idea that they were Gods was quickly discarded. The alliance with other peoples, who really were the main force to defeat the Aztecs, was forged in the idea of freeing themselves from the domination of the Aztec alliance. And the Spanish weapons did not really influence the combat too much, but rather the number of allies the Spanish had.
Spanish weaponry? probs not so much, but Spanish Horseriding? yes, and tones.
Absolutely, the importance of indigenous allies cannot be understated. I think it's also really important to remember how relatively new the Aztec empire itself was, with the triple alliance established less than 100 years ago. Central Mexico at that time had seen several empires rise and fall. There's no real way of knowing whether the Aztecs would have survived another century or have been toppled by yet another upstart. It's just that the Aztecs happened to be the dominant force when the Spaniards arrived.
And boy did the Spanish prove to be worst than the Aztecs
@@andu1854dices eso mientras los mexicas eran sociedad de guerra, sacrificios y una realeza caníbal
@@andu1854youre joking right
I really like the concept but the whole idea of psychological warfare due to the Spaniards being gods who are returning was a history written by Aztec scholars many years after the conquest. The reason Cortes was able to gather so many native Allie’s was due to the decentralized nature of the Aztec empire. It was largely ruled through hegemony rather than direct control so there was an extreme amount of autonomy between each city. Cortes really just showed up and promised to not tax them if they came along with him. (Obviously a lie)
They even encountered the Tlaxcala who were a group that the Aztecs could not establish control over. There are many theories as to exactly why they could not conquer them. To look more into it look into the flowery wars. There are theories among Mexican historians that suggest the Tlaxcala had Cortes and the Spanish massacred people at the city of Tolula. If you think about it the Spanish are the new kids to the region and the Tlaxcala are the badass warriors you want to help you fight the Aztecs. Tolula was potentially Cortes fulfilling an obligation.
Yes, the first mentions of the Aztecs thinking the conquistadors are gods first show up decades after the conquest and their validity is very iffy.
The whole “cortes was a god” story is generally seen in the mesoamerican field as a myth, still weird that the rest of the world hasant caught up to speed on this.
It wouldn't be too far off though from what I understand the first contact with the Aztecs they rowed out to their ships in a canoe or similar such vessel and tried to offer Cortez food with the blood of a slave in it, that they stabbed in front of him. Being that the blood is for the gods to consume it makes sense if they possibly mistook him for a god. In response he ordered a cannon to be fired and scared the ambassador into fainting.
Granted the Aztecs also consumed blood themselves by mixing it with amaranth grains but when your society insists that the gods consume human blood to stave off the end of the world it makes sense that the offering to Cortez was an attempt to appease a god.
But also in the scale of writing down history, if the accounts that claim they thought he was a god only come decades after it happened instead of say a millennia then it still puts it within the bounds of the lifetime of a person who went through the events or within the bounds of oral history when the story is still relatively accurate. But I don't know who the writers are in this regard.
Also I'm pretty sure the Tlaxcala where the punching bag of the Aztecs, the Aztecs never destroyed or conquered them because they needed sacrifices so leaving their enemy alive but surrounded to beat the piss out of later for sacrifices was the goal, and they where an ancient enemy in their folk tales dating back to when the aztecs could find no safety from their enemies until they saw an sign that they should build their home in the lake when they saw an eagle eating a snake on a cactus, so continuously fighting them was prestigious even if the Tlaxcala where well Diminished by the time of the Spanish arrival, but the subjugated tribes were very spiteful of their station under the repeated oppression of the Aztecs which is why they easily joined the Spaniards.
Not to mention that the Spanish had enough respect for them that they established the province of Tlaxcala (now the Free and Sovereign State of Tlaxcala) and granted them the first Usos y Costumbres Governments, otherwise known during that time as Republicas de Indios (Indian Republics), essentially allowing the Tlaxcalteca nobility to run their own autonomous nation. That's not something that was repeated except in isolated cases like certain regions of Oaxaca or later in Chihuahua and it's fascinating to say the least.
@@detleffleischer9418basically a reward to the Tlaxcala for siding with the Spanish. If Spain ended up losing, thered be no uncertainty as to Tlaxcalas fate afterwards
I do posts/consulting on Mesoamerican, especially Aztec history: While there's some stuff here I like, there's also pretty large errors and oversights, such as: Cortes wasn't seen as Quetzalcoatl, and many other things attributed to him didn't happen; Local states allied with Cortes NOT from him being seen as a god or from the Mexica of the Aztec capital being particularly hated, but rather from the hands-off nature of Mesoamerica politics enabling opportunistic side switching; and the video only focuses on the political specifics with Europe, even though obviously the specific relationships between different Mesoamerican states and kings both influenced how things played out and in the alt-history scenario here. There's a few other things too (the clothing shown for the Aztec and other Mesoamericans is often quite off) but those are the main ones
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1. CONTEXT ON MESOAMERICA/VIDEO VISUALS:
(This isn't one of the "major" video errors, but it's easier to start with this: skip further down for the bigger issues/cool political stuff)
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Firstly, for some context: Mesoamerica is the cultural region that encompasses roughly the bottom half of Mexico and Guatemala, Belize, etc defined by complex civilizations with some shared traits in those areas. Cities, writing, etc go back in Mesoamerica 2500-3000 years before the arrival of Europeans, so there's a LOT more then just the Aztec and Maya: While it's simplified, I appreciate the map in the video shows this with the Purepecha/Tarascan Empire to the west, the Mixtec kingdom of Tututepec down in Oaxaca, etc. However, these were all city-states, kingdoms, or empires, not "Tribes" as Cody says in the video: The region had between 15 and 25 million people (The 6m figure Cody gives would be for just the "Aztec Empire"), and was more complex than most people realize (though they didn't smelt iron: Cody probably meant Bronze, which they did use ceremonially, and for tools and weapons in a limited capacity)
By extension, a lot of the visuals used in the video are inaccurate: Historical paintings like at 2:58, 4:02 to 4:24, 5:20, 6:18, 9:57, etc, as well as Cody art of Jaguar soldiers and Moctezuma II are all off, depicting people primitively in pelts or half naked with big headdresses. In reality, Aztec men would have worn cloaks a bit like Greco-roman togas (the random commoners Cody drew are sorta close, though the headgear is off), while women wore blouses, which combined with their hair buns and face paint evoke Japanese Geisha. The garments of nobles were garishly colorful with geometric, floral etc designs, and wearing gold, gemstone (the "Aztec crown" was a turquoise mosaic diadem, not a headdress), and fine feather jewelry: Feathers (often iridescent with metallic shifting colors) were not merely stuck onto things, but arranged into detailed mosaics across the surface of objects (the Jaguar suits were Gambeson armor covered in a mosaic of feathers arranged to LOOK like Jaguar spots) or into 3 dimensional arranged bouquets. Buildings were covered in white stucco, painted frescos and other architectural accents, with the architectural style close to the Minoan palaces at Knossos, with square geometric rooms with flat roofs, and open courtyards surrounded by patios with columns. These palaces, temples, etc were arranged around large open plazas in city centers, often also with aqueduct and drainage systems, royal botanical gardens, etc. This was all surrounded by suburbs of commoner homes scattered amongst agricultural land which radiated out and got gradually less dense, though the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan was built in the middle of a lake with grids of artificial islands, so it had Venice-like canals and other unique elements
For good images, refer to art by Scott & Stuart Gentling, Angus Mcbride, Peter Dennis (he did 3:47 & 3:56, which are good), Ned Seidler, Zotz/Daniel Parada, Rafael Mena, OHS688, etc. I can suggest even more if people want
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CORTES WAS (NOT) SEEN AS A GOD:
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As I said, Cortes was not seen as Quetzalcoatl: Certainly not so by Moctezuma II, and probably not by anybody else. This claim only shows up in later retellings, but isn't present in Cortes's original letters. In fact, Cortes recounts that in their initial meeting, Moctezuma II basically said "Ah, you've heard rumors that i'm a god or a sorcerer from my people, but I am merely human like you, to prove it look at my bare mortal body", at which point Moctezuma II showed his bare chest to Cortes. Where does the idea of Cortes being seen as Quetzalcoatl come from then? Earlier in Moctezuma II's initial speech to Cortes, Moctezuma II brings up Nahua legends, likely of the Toltecs, regarding how the Mexica arrived in Central Mexico and of an exiled lord (likely Ce Acatl Topiltzin), and how the Mexica believed his descendants of would one day return to "inherit the kingdom": Moctezuma II allegedly believed Cortes was one of those descendants, not Quetzalcoatl, and pledges loyalty to the king of Spain and "surrenders" the city to Cortes
But even this is quite suspect, since A: The Nahuatl (the Aztec language) versions of this speech do not have those same elements, and merely gives a "my house is your house" speech of hospitality in a very flowery way: Nahuatl had multiple subdialects with increasing poetic complexity and symbolism for speech between nobles, kings, diplomacy etc and stuff may have been lost in translation, B: Moctezuma surrendering conveniently gives Cortes legal justification for his later actions, with hin claiming he was putting down a rebellion in already Spanish controlled territory rather then invading a sovereign state (Cortes's claiming he arrested Moctezuma II early on is similarly suspicious and contradicts other information) and C: this also helps present Spanish rule as being divinely ordained and predestined, which aids in conversion, something we also see later where Spanish friars equated Quetzalcoatl to Jesus or Saint Thomas, and with later accounts mentioning suspiciously accurate omens the Mexica allegedly saw foretelling the arrival of the Spanish which also just so happens to matches omens seen in European historical traditions, like around Lorenzeo D'Medici's death
There's a LOT more that can be said with Prehispanic theology being distorted over time, and Cortes twisting events to legally justify his actions (Even Cortes burning his ships was originally his captains just disassembling them to reusethe wood/nails), but i'll just direct people to "Burying the White Gods" which can be found online for free; plus "7 Myths of the Spanish Conquest" and "When Montezuma Met Cortes" by Restall.
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MESOAMERICAN POLITICS AND THE REAL REASON CORTES GOT ALLIES:
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Large Mesoamerican powers didn't tend to actually govern the places they had influence over, and this included the Aztec Empire: The Mexica were undoubtedly conquerors, but they didn't usually replace rulers, impose laws/customs/languages, found colonies or displace people, etc: Conquered subjects generally just had to pay taxes (which no, did not usually include victims for sacrifice), not block roads, provide military aid, etc: The "Empire" was more a network of semi-independent states which were indirectly subservient to Tenochtitlan, even having their own subjects or sometimes warring against other Aztec states. In the map in the video, the Purepecha/Tarascan empire is marked as "slightly less evil", but ironically it, if anything, had more of a hands on imperial political structure then the Aztec Empire did
As a result, subject states had their own ambitions and could make their own decisions: Attempts to secede via stopping taxes payments, or switching allegiances to another political network etc were common. The former particularly after the death of an Aztec Emperor, to see what they could get away with but also as a customary test to force the new emperor to prove their military might, since the threat of being reconquered, moreso then actual administrative control, was one of the things which kept subjects in line. On the other hand, some states benefitted from Aztec rule, such as vassals which joined the empire voluntarily for protection or better trade access; or or the more "core" Aztec states which flourished in the taxes Mexica conquests brought into the valley they shared with Tenochtitlan, and who heavily intermarried with Mexica royalty and had more influence as a result, so it was in their interest for it's military power to be respected and new emperors to be tested just the same
The reality is MOST of the states which allied with Cortes were "core" Aztec states that benefitted from Mexica supremacy, and only joined Cortes after Moctezuma II's death, Tenochtitlan was struck by smallpox, etc, by which point it was vulnerable and Mexica influence was in jeopardy anyways, and those states simply had more to gain by turning on it: again, this happened after the death of emperors all the time, it was how the Aztec Empire itself was founded when Azcapotzalco had a succession dispute and was vulnerable, and Tenochtitlan/the Mexica overthrew it with Texcoco and Tlacopan helping them out to piggyback off of Mexica success; and you continue to see this over the next few centuries as other non-Aztec Mesoamerican states used Conquistadors against their capitals or rivals
The Republic of Tlaxcala may have resented the Mexica and joined Cortes earlier, but Tlaxcala wasn't an Aztec subject, it was an enemy state the Mexica were actively at war with and hadn't submitted. Even with the Tlaxcalteca, they used the Conquistadors to further their influence over and to and attack other cities, not just Tenochtitlan: In a LOT of cases, the Conquistadors were being manipulated by local kings & officials more then the other way around, which I'll touch more on below and which ties into how the What-If would play out.
CONTINUED IN A REPLY BELOW
PLACEHOLDER; I'M STILL NOT DONE WITH THIS FOLLOWUP REPLY/COMMENT, BUT HERE'S WHAT I GOT SO FAR: (I may actually need a THIRD one since i'm almost at the limit here and am only half done with the comment, haha)
THE MESOAMERICAN POLITICAL SCENE: Now that I have all that out of the way, I can give a more detailed picture of the Mesoamerican political scene, though I'm gonna still have to exclude a lot due to space: The Aztec Empire was headed by Tenochtitlan (inhabited by the Mexica subgroup of Nahuatl speakers), Texcoco (head of the Acolhua Nahuas) and Tlacopan (of the Tepaneca Nahuas) the 3 cities in an alliance. The specifics of that alliance are debated, but aren't too important here, beyond that Tenochtitlan was the most dominant center, and that a few years before Cortes, Texcoco had a successon dispute where a few princes, most notably Cacama and Ixtlilxochitl II, vied for the throne. Cacama had Mexica backing, and in the end, got control over Texcoco itself, while Ixtlilxochitl II and other claimants had dominion over lesser parts of the Acolhua realm on the eastern side of the valley.
As the map in the video shows, the Aztec Empire occupied most of Central Mexico, both inland (so Nahua, Otomi, etc states) and along the coasts in what's now Veracruz, Oaxaca (so Totonac, Huastec, Mixtec, Zapotec, etc) and even conquered some Maya towns all the way down in Chiapas it secured as a source of Cacao. However, across all of this, there were various internal unconquered enclaves. Most are sadly excluded in the map in the video, but two I want to mention that do show up (alongside Yopitzinco, which i'm skipping) are the Mixtec kingdom of Tututepec (a powerful remnant of an empire formed by 8 Deer Jaguar Claw in the 11th-12th century); and Tlaxcala and it's allied states, such as Cholula and Huextozinco (These were also Nahuas, so arguably "culturally Aztec", but not politically a part of the "Aztec Empire")
Tlaxcala, as a city, was a republic ruled via a senate, and was the head of a sizable kingdom, especially if you count it's alliances with Cholula and Huextozinco as one big political network, similar to the Aztec Triple Alliance between Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and Tlacopan. Tlaxcala was a constant target of Mexica invasions: a lot of sources assert the Mexica did Flower Wars on it to have a steady stream of captives for sacrifices, but it is generally accepted by Mesoamericanists that this is in at least part an excuse, with Flower Wars having pragmatic military purposes and Tlaxcala was being slowly worn down so it could be fully conquered. In fact, in the leading up to the arrival of Cortes, Cholula (itself a notable religious center, and more of a atheocracy ruled by priests IIRC: Compare that to Tlaxcala's senate or Tenochtitlan's autocractic monarchy to show the political diversity amongst Nahua states, tho all shared some elements) actually had switched from being aligned with Tlaxcala to being allied with or a vassal of Tenochtitlan, which will become important later.
Finally, totally external to the Aztec Empire were the Purepecha/Tarascan Empire to it's west (as seen in the video) in what's now Michoacán: It and the Aztec fought in the 1470s, and the two militarized their borders in response, locked in a sort of Cold War, alongside scattered/fractured states even further in West Mexico or to the East of the Aztec in the Yucatan Peninsula, Chiapas, Guatemala, etc. (Contrary to what people think, the "Classic Maya collapse" did not see the complete destruction of complex Maya civilization, some areas actually grew more powerful in the aftermath)
HOW MESOAMERICAN POLITICS INFLUENCED CORTES/HOW CORTES WAS MANIPULATED
(probably gonna cut this down a lot)
So, that's the Mesoamerican political situation. How does that influence the events with Cortes? Cortes intially interacts with and conquers Maya kingdoms in Tabasco: Even this early on, we know Moctezuma II knew about Cortes from the Aztec spy network. Cortes sails and arrives in the Gulf Coast, and is housed by the Totonac city of Cempoala, one of 3 major states of that culture, though all were also Aztec subjects and Aztec diplomats were around as well. Xicomecoatl, the king of Cempoala, cries up a sob story of Mexica oppression, and directs Cortes to an "Aztec Fort" nearby, which was really ___, a rival Totonac city. After that plot gets exposed, the Totonacs lead the Conquistadors into Tlaxcalteca territory: possibly to test them militarily, possibly to just ditch them and get them killed. The Tlaxcaltecas, most notably Xicotencatl II, intially want nothing to do with Cortes, and have the Conquistadors on the backfoot as hostilities range on for days, before finally Xicotencatl is convinced to spare them and offers to ally with Cortes against the Mexica. En route to Tenochtitlan, they stop in Cholula, which, remember, recently switched from being a Tlaxcalteca ally to a An Aztec one. Cortes is fed information, in some sources from the Tlaxcaltecas, that the people of Cholula intend to ambush them overnight, and in response the city of Cholula is sacked in a big massacre, which conveniently allows the Tlaxcalteca to put a puppet regime in power and placing them back within their political sphere.
The Conquistadors and Tlaxcalteca arrive in Tenochtitlan and... not much happens for a while. Something I did forget to touch on before though is: If Moctezuma II didn't think Cortes was a god, why did he let Cortes into the city? Mesoamerican diplomacy had a lot of strict rules and expectations of hospitality (even kings of states you were at war with attended ceremonies in foreign cities where their own soldiers were being sacrificed) and to NOT allow Cortes in, who claimed to represent a foreign king, would be a faux pas, and make him look cowardly to other Mesoamerican kings, since this was a small band of foreigners and the Tlaxcaltecas, who the Mexica had been beating up on for years. It was also an opportunity for Moctezuma II to learn about the Spanish, to flex the granduer of Tenochtitlan to try to court the Spanish into becoming subjects or allies (indeed, many were given noblewomen as potential political marriages, which they mistook for gifts of concubines), and by "containing" them in Tenochtitlan (Restall notes the Conquistadors were even housed near the royal zoo), it also demonstrated Mexica power to other Mesoamerican kings that Moctezuma II had them under his control (assuming Cortes was indeed lying about having Moctezuma II under arrest).
Anyways, eventually Cortes gets wind that the Govenor of Cuba, Diego Velazquez, sent another Conquistador, Panilfo Narvaez, to arrest him (since Cortes launched his expedition illegally and was charged with treason), and runs off to fight Narvaez in the coasts (Narvaez actually allied with Mexica forces to try to arrest Cortes after it became clear he wasn't representing the Spanish crown), but Cortes wins, and convinces his men to join him instead. Meanwhile, back in Tenochtitlan, Alvarado ends up massacring a bunch of unarmed nobles during the Toxcatl religious festival, which causes an uprising, and in the chaos, Moctezuma II (as well as Cacama and a few other kings) dies, either assassinated by Cortes or killed by the Mexica (both are likely, though I don't have space to clarify on). Shit hits the fan, The Conquistadors and the Tlaxcaltecas have their numbers halved escaping the city in La Noche Triste, and manage to win the battle of Otumba (there were not 20,000 Mexica soldiers, probably much less, and there were also a few thousand Tlaxcaltecas still with the Conquistadors). They manage to escape back to Tlaxcala, rest and regoup, while conversely, one of Narvaez's men was carrying smallpox, which breaks out in Tenochtitlan, with half the city dead or dying by the time the Spanish and Tlaxcalteca arrive back to the Valley of Mexico, where they ally with Ixtlilxochitl against the rest of the Acolhua states, a few other cities, and as they progress through the valley and conquer more cities which submit to them, gain more and more forces, before finally sieging Tenochtitlan itself.
STUFF I STILL NEED TO GET INTO:
- How the Spanish actually viewed the Mesoamericans (The video is wrong when it claims they saw them as just savages, many Spanish sources praise Mesoamerican civilization, art, cities, and even society and laws, and just criticize Mesoamerican religion, and even then draw comparsions between sacrifice, cannabalism, etc with christ's sacrifice and communion)
- How the hypothetical Spanish x Mesoamerican armor, art, etc fusions Cody brings up ACTUALLY DID happen historically in the mid-late 16th and early 17th century, with Mesoamerican soldiers using both macuahuitl, prehispanic jewlery and feather mosaic ornaments, alongside plate armor, steel shields and swords, and even Conquistadors using Mesoamerican armor; and the absolutely mind blowing surviving Catholic feather mosaic "paintings"
- How in an actual what-if alt history senarcio, the critical factor is when Cortes is taken out of the picture, as it needs to be early enough that it's before Moctezuma II's death and narvaez's men carrying smallpox, so Mexica political influence is still in place, but late enough that Cortes was found out to be a liar and to make the Mesoamericans skeptical of further spanish expeditions. ideally, the Mexica would help Narvaez capture Cortes successfully, but there's no smallpox carrier yet, so the Spanish is put in an awkward position of having established diplomatic contact with the Mexica on good terms, the Mexica are still pissed however and won't allow more expeditions, so the Spanish either have to commit to overt warfare or pump the brakes and wait stuff out or do trade, and how stuff can branch off from there, and how all the other Mesoamerican states and kings I mentioned above could play into hypothetical events
The pimp
It’s crazy how high-quality this is for a RUclips comment.
@@capnkillbot Haha, well, i'm not even halfway done yet. I might actually need 3 COMMENTS rather then just 2, and I already had to cut a lot just from what I already posted. Check back in tommorow and I should have everything done!
This is crazy good and deserves more likes.
The thought of an Aztec resistance adapting to fight the Spanish using their own weapons and tactics reminds me of this quote from Osceola
“You have guns and so have we. You have powder and lead, and so have we. You have men and so have we. Your men will fight and so will ours, till the last drop of the Seminole’s blood has moistened the dust of his hunting ground.”
Banger
Based
metal
As I understand, the Aztecs weren't exactly loved by the other peoples living in that area of the world.
@@ronald3836people tend to forget that
The Mesoamerican nations had quite complex relations and to a Tlaxcaltec a Mexica was as foreing as a Spaniard
(Also Aztecs are overrated, Chichimecas were the only ones who actually won in the military perspective)
Video idea: What if Henry V didn’t die young?
Some possible results of this would be English held France, no war of the roses which then means no tudors, and who knows how that would shape things.
Better yet, what would happened to the Wars of Religion had Henry II of France didn't die on that jousting tournament?
Wouldn’t that be interesting as all get out?
Joan of Arc kills him in Single combat and proceeds to cross the channel to unite the crowns under the god appointed house of Valois!
This probably means spain and portugal get away with it even more in the 15th and 16th cemturies because england and hre are duking it out for central europe and spain isnt bothered in putting down the dutch and now its either a problem for the HRE or the english
@@seanmcloughlin5983And Joan would have her AoE 4 ability: being able to spawn cannons and soldiers immediately beside her from out of nowhere
I recommend everyone to watch DJ Peach Cobbler's videos on the fall of the Aztecs as a supplement to this video, as there are many misconceptions about Cortez and his conquest that are talked about there. For starters - Aztecs did not think that the Spanish were gods ;)
Yeah, I had a lot of “wait, hol up” moments listening to this, thanks to RUclips’s most infamous, schizophrenic desert.
Yeah his way of telling it definitely shows off the Aztec perspective a bit beter
I hope his video doesn't paint the Aztec as the good guy
@@RenStrive no still touches on the skull walls and all that but definitely is more fair and less excepting of the traditional Spanish story.
It's not that black and white@@RenStrive
If you go through the series that DJ Peach Cobbler made on the Cortez expedition, there’s several interesting ways that the Aztecs could survive Cortez and the first contact with Spain.
I think it's worth noting that the Aztecs were so hated by their neighbors that everyone else joined the Conquistadors.
...who in our timeline proved to be far worse, but still.
@@benthomason3307 how is economic inequality worse than your people being treated like non-humans to be used for sacrifice?
They didn't hate the Aztecs per se, they hated the big guy at the top because it didn't happen to be them. The way mesoamerican civilization worked in the area was largely just bunch of city states paying taxes to the city state with the largest stick, because if they didn't they would get hit by previously mentioned stick. The Aztecs were generally the usual power the area was used to for centuries, it's just that everyone wanted to hold the position that the Aztecs held
@@cunty3002and also they hated them for basically human sacrifice for everything, you can viewing the conquest and cultural destruction as bad without also acknowledging there were valid reasons for why they were hated
@@chimera9818 make no mistake, the rulers of the other city states hated the Aztecs PURELY because they saw it would benefit them if their single largest political opponent was gone. Now sure who's to say what the every day citizen thought, but it's likely rivals of the Aztecs just saw an opportunity with the Spanish arriving and told them "they are tyrannical and kill people" just to manipulate the Spanish to do their bidding. Not to even mention the whole black legend aspect. Point being the rulers in any society have never cared for their people as much as they have for power
Most historians actually refute the whole “ship burning” thing
Not so much refute, more like they have a way more complicated set of reasons for it to happen. And the timeline of the ship burning is also diferent.
But basically Cortez ignored military orders to NOT explore and was thus wanted in Cuba, with a hanging in the gallows waiting for him, and after some time finding no riches in those parts many of the expedition members were ready to go back and give him in a platter to the cuban governor, so he had a small group of loyalists burn the ships and threaten the others. Honestly if Cortez had not been succesfull he would be so dead. That is also why you see him be insanelly reckless so many times, because it was either do/find something important or die trying since he was dead anyways otherwise.
@@Democlisthis is actually incorrect. You are correct in saying Cortez would have been imprisoned if he went back, but the boats were scuttled, not burned, in order to make a small colony village, and it was done before any real expedition was taken into the actual center of Mexico. Actually a lot of this video is just blatantly incorrect. The idea of the prophecy of the return of Quetzalcoatl was just made up by Cortez, and not a single piece of evidence of the prophecy exists from Aztec histories or relics. The natives didn’t all turn on the Aztecs because they hated them, a few tribes sided with the Spanish, and that number grew as the Aztecs started to lose, because no one wants to be on the losing side. The Spanish didn’t ‘get Montezuma killed’, they killed him, and then lied about it in their personal histories to save face. And Cortez didn’t conquer Cuba, he just participated in the conquest, and frankly didn’t do much
@@DemoclisHe just grounded the ships and later used the wood to built the boats to lay siege Tenochtitlan
@@Democlis he actually sent a part of his loyalists back to Spain to get there before Velásquez (the governor of Cuba) could send his own men to go an tell the king about Cortez. The rest of the ships were dismantled of everything useful to build smaller ships to siege Tenochtitlan (at this point he had already been told it was in the middle of a lake). What was left they grounded and used as target practice/demonstration of their cannons. The cannoning is possibly where the burning thing came from.
@@Democlis CORTEZ: GIT RICH OR DIE TRYIN'
Great video, although as any time traveler will tell you, the easiest way to get Cortez to fail is to make sure he never meets Marina, more famously known as La Malinche, the native woman who was both interpreter and mastermind of a lot of native plots. She was the main reason he survived several native attacks, and used his survival to get the Aztec hating natives to side with him, adding thousands to his army. Without her, he's dead in a month.
Just don't let the time rangers catch you doing that, of course.
Came here to mention her, thanks for doing so!
It's crazy that she sort of just disappeared after all that.
Definitely need to bring up Marina, the odds of just stumbling onto someone who speaks both languages is insane. Cortez has sheer luck
I don't think so. Although Malinche was a central player in the conquest, you can't say she was a "mastermind" in this story. She was important, of course, as an interpreter. However, without her, Cortez would have found another way to communicate with the natives, since there was a priest who understood the native language (Jeronimo de Aguilar), and probably would take some another native (or natives) to serve as an interpreter.
To stop Cortez, it would be necessary to convince the Tlaxcallans' leaders themselves to kill him, since his life was spared when he was almost being defeated, in the first encounter with these people. And also make Montezuma more reactive, becoming more aware of the real situation his country was facing and annihilating the invaders while he still had a chance. Obviously, not allowing them to approach the capital.
Pizarro was inspired by Cortes, as I understand it. He used the Cortes playbook when encountering the Inca. Without a Cortes success, Pizarro is unlikely to have even had the idea.
They were cousins in the first place
Pizarro met with the Sapa Inca under the flag of truce then ambushed and killed his guards, used him as a hostage to have the Sapa Inca's recently defeated brother released who welcomed them and basically let them take over his country before realizing "Oh shit, inviting a foreign army into my homeland and then letting more and more come in was really dumb actually."
Scenario idea: What if Castile united with Portugal to form Spain and not Aragon?
Iam Spanisrd the natural way of Castile id the unión of Aragón for cultural proximity in this momento more powerful than Portugal and Mediterránean territories in Italy
I'd have Spanish as my native language, which sounds like a worst case scenario to me
@@andrade9172 Every Portuguese worst nightmare.
Castille spent years and years trying to overrule Portugal's independence (kinda suceding once. Even Franco the dictator had plans to invade and it's the 20th century already) so by the point Spain is formed, the country has it's own identity and culture, and part of it is being pissed at them. A fact still true, almost nine centuries later. A suggestion like that would just make people laugh in Castille's and Lyon's face.
@@LadyDaliena What if's can be complex so maybe in this timeline Portugal and Castille are far closer earlier so Portugals is closer to Castille Identity & Culture wise while Aragon is pushed away to develop its own culture and identity.
Please do one for the Inca, if Francisco Pizarro lost to them!
First off-potatoes don’t become the miracle crop of northern and Eastern Europe
Atahualpa was pretty competent as Sapa Inca and I wouldn't be surprised if he could pull back the empire during his rule. I really doubt he could fully recover but effectively presiding over a period of reconstruction and coping with the impacts of disease.
Unlike the Aztecs, the Incans were quite strongly centralised around Cusco and had a fairly effective strategy for maintaining this.
@@stateofflorida5082Incans were far more complex and developed than the Aztecs (I say this despite I’m Mexican)
@@Danisiah1yeah , most forget that the Aztec just unified when Columbus landed in Hispaniola (took until the forth journey to land on America ) and were already not in good shape when the conquistadors came, Inca was arguably the more impressive win considering they were hundreds of years stable empire that was really strong
@@chimera9818 Well no, Pachacuti and his son had conquered most of the land during their reigns in the late 1400s so it was also a new empire but it was built off a model and system developed over iterations of Andean societies rather than just enforcing the aztecs extremist lifestyle and politics over all their neighbours.
It made for a far more palatable rule as incan law guaranteed food, clothing and medicine for all its peoples as well as efficiently organising its own form of command economy.
Rebelling against the aztecs was put down with savage repression. Rebelling against the incans was to lose access to extensive supply lanes, food and military security as well as inviting the wrath of a 100,000 strong army if diplomatic talks failed.
“Devil’s Gold” would be an epic title for an alternate history adventure novel about Spanish smugglers dealing with the Aztecs.
It cannot be denied that if the Aztecs had repelled Cortez, a Quetzalcoatl Gadsden Flag would have been a historical inevitability: "Do not step on god-snek."
I like how my ancestors. The Purepecha (Tarascan) are seen as “slightly less evil” on the map 🤣😅
Same here
@@Dawgsoftheworld X2
Aqui de Quanaxhuato, al menos se da cuenta que hubo una tercera gran civilización en la Mesoamérica del post-clásico
Faltaron los otomíes o que le pusieran un guiño a cómo los pueblos nahuas del altiplano veían a los chichimecas (perros/bárbaros)
@@Danisiah1
Tomando en cuenta el topónimo de "Guanajuato", "Quanaxhuato" o sus otras deformaciones es de origen p’uɽe cuya descomposición morfológica sería [Kuanasï-Huáto (su forma original): "kuanasï" (rana) + "-huát(a)-" (cerro) + "-o" (sufijo de residencia) = "lugar donde reside el cerro de rana"], la presencia p’uɽe en la parte sur del estado fue evidente por su presencia lingüística en la región y pudieron anexar parte de la región a su imperio mediante conquistas en Akampaɽu, Iuɽiri-Hapuntaɽu e intentos de conquista en Epenchemo. Esto hacía conflicto con las demás etnias o civilizaciones ajenas presentes al pelearse por la supremacía en la región para ser el único grupo dominante. Sería interesante que también se mencionara este punto.
Saludos desde Purembo.
Arriba Michoacan
Gears now turning in my head, building around that "English pirates where Houston would be" notion. I've never delved that deep into developing Alt History myself, but this concept I feel has a lot of potential to be tapped.
Random factoid, but something I learned during a mini-research project for chemistry is that the Aztecs weren't just able to work iron and bronze into tools, they also knew how to harden their tools by adding other metals. It was found that, particularly in religious and sacrificial artifiacts/tools, that the Aztecs added bismuth. This resulted in strengthening the alloy and was thought to also give the resulting bronze and iron tools a greater reflective surface. The Aztecs, Incans and Mayans were all very advanced civilizations; the Europeans just weren't super charitable when describing the "godless heathens" in their records.
related to chemistry, Aztecs had a whole system of artificial floating islands called "chinampas" which are made with soil from the bottom of the lake, resulting in very fertile soil with great irrigation, but in order to keep the soils productive they did two things, one is a form of crop rotation using staple plants that compliment each other nutrients so it lowers the nutrient demand on the soil, and the other was to syntetize amonia and other fertilizers from human urine, so they were able to have up to 3 harvesting seasons a year.
You mentioned it with the English, but I think the French could be even bigger trade partners to the Aztecs, especially if they were to still settle the Mississippi River. Historically they were very friendly with native people and established both trade and diplomatic alliances.
I could easily see a similar thing happening where the French trade Canadian furs and French guns/cannons for Aztec gold in a mutually beneficial trade and military alliance as they both vehemently hated Spain/Habsburgs. Incredibly interesting scenario with so much room for fun ideas.
Scenario idea: What if Italy joined the Central Powers?
What if Italy never left the Central Powers?
@@dragonx889They never left the central powers
@@geenkaas6380iirc they had a defensive agreement with the Germans and Austrians that they never honored, instead fighting Austria for Dalmatia
what if Italy just, never existed
@@beans00001 Too good to be true
What if the Aztecs had MG42s during the invasion
No we can do better.
The aztecs get: 5000 sets of Dragonskin body armor
50 hand held radios and lets say 1 years worth of spare batteries.
Can't remember the name of the channel, but there's a dude who does similar kind of scenarios, like sending a handful of modern army rangers or marines back in time to an earlier battle like the American Revolutionary War, or Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders back to the war of 1812.
Una masacre en toda mesoamerica.
A vid on if the Sino-Soviet split never happened or was patched up in the 70s would be so cool man
Here to say DJ Peach Cobbler is angry with you
Lol why
On this trend of old world vs. new world, I think it would be really interesting to see a video on "What if Smallpox never existed?"
That…would actually be a huge game changer. You probably see the Americas be colonized in a similar manner as resulted from the scramble of Africa-sparsely populated European regimes over a mass of poor indigenous people for the most part, while the more developed nations like the Iroquois and Incas and Aztecs firmly establish their own sovereignty (think of Ethiopia’s example in the late 19th century).
You probably still get English colonies, but without smallpox the Spanish can’t obtain their own empire, at least in the same way. The French and Dutch probably make alliances with the natives to beat off the English to even greater success than in our timeline.
if you mean about it never affecting the americas.
pobably not a lot of diference, sure more people stay alive and spanish management of the indian territories is more complicated, but the "90%" death population thing is a exageration, the demographical fall would be so extreme than there is no way so many indian cultures stayed alive until this day, so it was much more less, it was a factor irl, but not the only and great one that allowed the empires to exist.
The US area would probably still be still relatively lighter populated (it was always relatively less populated than Central America and Andes areas) but would still be far more crowded while the areas of Aztecs and Inca would be more like modern day Africa
@@-helpergamming-4163bro is just wrong
@@-helpergamming-4163 I’m pretty sure the consensus among most historians is that disease killed most of the pre-colonial population of the Americas. Even if you don’t believe the 90% number, it was still enough to drastically alter the indigenous population.
You make the point that such an extreme collapse would destroy tons of cultures that wouldn’t survive to today, but you say that like there haven’t been countless indigenous peoples and cultures that haven’t been destroyed in our history. Really it is by some miracle that many indigenous peoples have survived to the modern world
This is wild, I literally just finished DJ Cobblers series on this
Internet's greatest musical dessert man
I think the comprehensive documentary the fall of civilizations podcast released a few years ago inspired a lot of people and brought attention back to this crazy story. Im here for it. Its soo fascinating. Everyone is even managing to find and include interesting new information to add to thier content about it. I NEVER knew the AZTEC TRIPPLE ALLIANCE had iron.
Something about the reformation too is that without Spain's infinite war chest, they couldn't just "pay to win" the French Wars of Religion, so very strong chance France would be Protestant, there would also not be any massive Spanish armada to fight the Ottomans, so very good chance they break out into the Atlantic.
You could have taken the chilean mapuche as a reference, as they had managed to make a peace agreement to the spanish by having put up fierce resistance with their own imported things like guns and horses
This is why I find Cortez as one of the greatest conquerors in human history. It was a venture into the great unknown, communication obstacles for the locals, and luck that of plot armor. Seriously Cortez conquest sounds more like a fable than anything real
He did get the boost of having at least a chain of translation through La Malinche and a spaniard who had been a slave to a Mayan tribe for a decade.
Fucc Cortez but I’d be lying if I said he wasn’t an extremely brave charismatic mf
Honestly, yes the successes of Cortez & Pizarro do read like a bad alternate history idea.
"What if Cortez just conquered everything permanently instead getting wiped out before making it back to the sea? and what if that leads to Pizarro getting enough men to actually go on his proposed conquest of the Inca, and outright winning that one?"
Doesn't sound like a good premise for a timeline. Even worse than that strange TL I saw were Genua sold Corsica to France well after the establishment of the Republic of Corsica, and then a Corsican becomes emperor of France. That was all sorts of wack.
Is anyone here who also watches DJ Peach Cobbler?
Yess
in our history the Massacre of Aztecs after their defeat did not come from the Spanish but the natives who wanted revenge on them. The Spanish tried to stop it but they were horrifically outnumbered and the natives really wanted revenge.
Finally someone who says it
ngl there's a lot of points in Cortez travel to Tenochtitlan where he should of died, he was very tactical but also very lucky he was practically surrounded on all fronts by the Aztecs when he stayed in their city and he knew this which is why the rushed to take the emperor hostage and narrowly escaped when the Aztec citizens rebelled.
should have*
What if the Saxon takeover of Britain failed or What if William the Conqueror lost the battle of Hastings
Thats an interesting question. If the Saxon takeover did not happen but William succeeded then nothing much has changed but if William fails then allll history in Western Europe changes especially all the wars between Britain and France could change or never happen and Britain relationships with all countries might be different there might not even be a British Empire which means no USA and a totally different planet. If William lost then literally the entire world could be completely different today. Crazy.
the blessed timeline
Never understood why Britain didn't become Saxonia
@@ninab.4540 Funny you say that since if England was named after the Saxons instead of the Angles it would most likely be called "Sexland" today lol
If the latter, then professor Tolkien would be very, very happy but never know why as he wrote Lord of the Rings in Anglo-Saxon or it’s successor language.
We wouldnt know Cortez existed because hed be a forgotten nobody.
Great video as always fascinating to see you put your own spin here i perfectly see spain coming back question would be if it is before any of the other european rivals
Yep he'd be just another obscure footnote like the conquistadors who tried their luck in Mesoamerica before him
@@Threezi04Francisco Hernández de Córdoba and Juan de Grijalva
I feel like the big winner of this scenario is Portugal since they had already begun their colonization of Brasil. Also since Mexico isn't a thing Peru would probably not be conquered, although I feel like the Inca system is even more vulnerable to european meddling, so maybe you could see the Muisca of Colombia being propped up as a bulwark against further Inca expansion towards the eventual caribbean coast colonies. I could eventually see a settlement in today's Argentina to check both the Portuguese and the Inca and to serve as a scale for ships towards Asia which might be more important in this timeline but that also raises the question of where would the Europeans get the money to pay the chinese for their wares so maybe there's more of an involvement in indo-malay trade, which means that in this universe we would get Pirates of the South China Sea
Interesting thoughts! Perhaps you see the rise of a Mapuche proxy state or a Welsh colony in OTL Argentina as that buffer state.
Nah the Inca system was way less vulnerable, Pizarro got insanely lucky by sneaking in undetected and capturing the emperor, since literally the entire system revolved around him.
I really like the maps in this video! They looked really cool and I loved all of the small funny comments on them, great work again!
I wish they did win, so i could see more of that SICK architecture. 😔
Something interesting you should take note of is that if England privateers Texas, and excessively trades with the mesoamerican natives, chances are that the United States would never have happened. US colonial independence came from a weakened British state that was facing some economic hardships, this boost from this alternate 17th century could see the crown having power that can be far better maintained, and thus the revolutionary war either could have not happened, or would have been a loss. Honestly, this seems like it would make for a good sequel video topic
This is by far my favorite alternate history scenario
Thank you for this episode! I've been waiting for you to do this! Cortez's victory over the Aztecs was a such a fluke it's not even funny. His expedition failing would've literally changed everything.
One thing the video also doesn't explore is how the presence of a continued strong native Mexican empire might influence Native Americans up north as they attempted to resist American expansionism. As it was, natives were pinned by the Mexican Empire in the south and the US in the East. But an Aztec or Post-Aztec Native Mexico may be more willing to supply troops, weapons, or supplies to other native people's in exchange for dominion or influence in the north.
@@QuintusAntoniousMesoamerican peoples saw everybody north of them the same way Romans saw Germanic people. It didn’t mattered if they shared the continent, they were Barbarians and sub-humans.
Ironcally, Nahua people descend from mass migrations from up north, but that story is mostly known by oral tradition, erased by Tlacaelel (at least, for the Aztec/Mexica) and just recently rediscovered thanks to archaeology.
I highly doubt they would even show interest for a wasteland of sparse tribes, with nearly nothing of value (jade, quetzal feathers, silver without value for the Mesoamerican civilizations, arable lands, cacao), other than animal skins, and they even got it by trade with semi-nomad or settled chichimec-otomies on modern day south Guanajuato or Queretaro; now imagine that lack of interest but with more remote lands like the Great Basin, California, Texas, Rio Grande or the Great Plains far far far north of the core of that “Native Mexican Empire”
There is actually a book by Orson Scott Card that explores this timeline, its called Pastwatch. Pretty good if memory serves.
I think something that isn't often talked about when talking about the natives of the Americas and Oceania is how fast they could adapt and adopt new technologies and ways.
Plains Indians became masters of the horse, they all became skilled with firearms, they adopted new tactics and guerilla warfare, etc.
Imagine if societies as powerful and developed as the Aztecs or Inca had enough time to do so. True forces to be reckoned with for any Europeans who might want to conquer them.
11:31 Actually the Spanish never wanted to invade the Aztecs and Cortez was originally considered a criminal. The Spanish would probably not have invaded.
Nobody burned the boats, they were probably raided for metal and rope but they absolutely were left to rot on the beach. Maybe they were beached because the ships were already in rough shape, maybe cortez and the other captains really did want to guarantee nobody tried to go home, we don't know.
Thank you for the perfect timing on what to watch
Cody, I gotta say this was one of your most fascinating videos ever. Thank you!
All-around, an excellent exploration of an interesting topic. This may be my favourite video of yours.
You can't really talk about Spanish ambitions in the New World without discussing the Treaty of Tordesillas. That treaty heavily affected how Spain and Portugal behaved when it came to the colonization of the Americas, Africa, India, and the Pacific.
Scenario idea: What if the Duchy of Burgundy survived?
Omg tno reference
Well, Franco-German history is either way more violent or considerably less so
Probably could survive has something of greater Netherlands borders
Probably would be a buffer state between France and the HRE (or the rest of the HRE at least). Maybe even would reclaim some borders of Middle Francia from 9th century. You can check Divergences of Darkness for Victoria 2 and Victoria 3 mods for example.
This is really fascinating, great video Cody!
thanks for the awesome content as always Cody
Cortez failing is easy enough to imagine, he came so close to ruin many times. And then another immediate attack not happening due to Spanish weariness and Aztec readiness makes sense too. But I think the only long term survival strategy after that is conversion to Christianity.
Cortez was nearly captured like 5 times in the Tenochtitlan siege
First man been watching you for years. So glad i can finally comment. I love what you do and so glad you are even on the platform, keep doing what you are doing and roll with it or get rolled over. Don’t let anyone stop you from doing this.
You are one of my favoritr RUclips channels! Thank you for doing this. Im getting so much reference material for my alternate history book
This is an excellent video essay! Keep up the great work!
What if Japan won the Imjin war?
Love your content! Keep up the good work 😊😊😊❤❤❤
Videazo! You really let go for this one. 🙌🏽
Wow, this is the best video of this topic that I as a Spaniard have ever seen. Usually when dealing with this period of Spanish history people tend to go either ''Aaah the Spanish crown was the most rudless tryanical and evil empire that the earth has ever seen, they comited a genocide of millions and everything would have been better if the Spanish were defeated and tha paradise was defend or even better, if the British colonized us (Xd they really say that last part)'' or also can go the other way ''the spaniards were the bastion of equal human rights and they were the ones who brought civilization through hugs and friendships with the natives'' So I really appreciate the unbiased and historically neutral/accurate view on this topic, specially coming from an english channel, those usually don't talk quite well about anyone's history except theirs. So thanks Cody for this amezing video! I'm still waiting for a part three of what if Al-Andalus survived and know I wish for a part two of this alternate history scenario, it would be really cool to see the ramifications of a ''partition of america'' in the style of the partition of Africa (maybe the scots can get their panama colony).
Such an interessting scenario. Would be cool to hear your take on the Inca surviving Pizzarro´s conquest next.
This needs a part 2 we can’t just leave this scenario like this
Love the videos, man. Keep it up!!!
It’s always a Good day when Cody releases a Alternate History video
Oh, Cody, C'mon... The cortezian expedition's common story is total BS, and I expected better... The boat burning thing didn't happen
And the Aztecs didn't think Cortez was a god. They'd killed Spanish soldiers multiple times, and multiple times tried to get one over on the conquistadors.
To quote DJ Peach Cobbler, "What kind of god shits himself when he gets stabbed?"
The process you describe in part IV and V was exactly what happened with the Mapuches, which being technologically inferior to the Aztecs, could defeat and resist the spanish conquistadors for quite a lot of time. The frontier in southern Chile was fixed for almost 300 years, only to be conquered by Chilean state during de XIX.
As always, excelent video Cody
This is probably my favorite alternative history scenario and it has been for several years.
Nice. Didnt know you had another channel. Clicked because the premise sounded awesome in the depths of my RUclips ennui.
Interesting scenario for you: What if Operation Felix (Germany's plan to attack Gibraltar) actually happened?
Great video splendid to watch. I like how unlike other alt history RUclipsrs there’s no bias to your own political views lately other alt history RUclipsrs sure haven’t been getting along with each other hopefully you will stay how you are now and make more brilliant content for years to come 👍
Cortez was not viewed as a god.
video is trash
I love you, Cody.
You break down everything I've thought of when I was a kid, and no one would listen..
Thanks this one was real fun
For a more in depth study of the subject filled with context, references, and autism please check out DJ Peach Cobbler. He's currently working on the doomed Narvaez Expedition.
I just finished watching DJ Peach Cobbler's video series on The Fall of the Aztecs before coming here to this video.
Honestly, While I do agree that there were dozens of ways Cortez's expedition could've ended in total failure (one which the Spanish Government would be just fine washing their hands of if it did happen considering Cortez was waging an illegal war without a permit anyway), I feel like some of the point and concepts in this video just seem kinda...off compared to how Cobbler analyzed the accounts of the expedition and historical analysis, especially since the whole "Quetzelcoatl prophesy" side of the story was mostly hokum.
totally agree. this video should defo be reworked imo
Yeah; I was not a fan of the Cortez-Quetzalcoatl myth being brought up after it has been so thoroughly debunked. I would almost wish the consequences of Cortez's tactics were explored more. Pizarro essentially used Cortez's accounts as a playbook for the conquest of the Inca Empire/Tawantinsuyu. If Cortez's expedition ended in failure, I doubt those approaches to colonization would be used.
More alternate history scenarios that you should make:
- What if the Incas became Christian?
- What if the Ottomans successfully conquered Vienna?
- What if the establishment of the state of Liberia failed?
- What if the partition of the Indian subcontinent never happened?
- What if Indonesia successfully annexed some parts of Malaysia during the Confrontation?
- What if there were Aboriginal kingdoms in Australia?
- What if Attila the Hun conquered Rome?
- What if the Byzantines discovered America?
- What if Russia became Buddhist instead of Christian?
Amaizing!!! so many details!!
Ah I see even Cody can fall into the Spanish propaganda that eliminated all the information about just how out of their depth the Cortez conquistadors where. Their mezoamerican allies were more than likely using the small group of conquistadors to overthrow their Aztec conquers. In fact their wasn’t any reason for Cortez to be their he was way over stepping his legal standing. Shit posting aside the best breakdown of how we’ve all been mislead about the Aztecs for centuries comes from a RUclipsr called DJ peach cobbler.
From what I understand the natives didn’t actually believe in the Cortez is a god myth
really enjoyed this whole thing:)
Love these videos dude
19:33 Seeing Courland in there makes me wonder what would happen if their colonies never failed. If you do another video where you do multiple scenarios you should definitely include that one in there
I have read many sources and accounts from the Spaniards and later nahua historians and let me tell you that I never got the impression that the Aztecs were dolled out a defeat in terms of psychological warfare. The Aztecs (nahuas generally) were in a constant process of realization that the Spanish weren't gods but men. Like when the Tlaxcala killed a horse having originally thought the horses of the spanish to be massive mythological immortal deer brought them to realize horses were just banal animals. When the spanish tried to build a trebuchet to save on gunpower they failed massively sent the boulder meant for the Aztecs straight up in the air and destroying the trebuchet only to have the aztecs laugh at them while the spanish engineers bickered amongst themselves (this is real we have 3 accounts from Cortes, Diaz del Castillo and the Codecies of Friar Sahagun.)
The aztecs weren't physiologically defeated in any way aside from the massacres the spanish initiated, but more like "Wow these guys are full of shit."
So many of your episodes could be the premise for an epic crazy game
One thing is for sure: we need a part 2!
I think you miss out on utilizing the Tlaxcallan who were a relatively minor power that almost slaughtered Cortés and company in their first engagement. He only survived because they spared him thinking he could be useful. Xicotencatl II Axayacatl was the one who specifically saw the threat posed and orchestrated Cortés's defeat before being forced to stand down and eventually betrayed by his own.
But yeah, Cortés could have been slaughtered before he even encountered the Aztecs.
The info regarding the Aztecs working with iron was interesting, do you have a source on this? Suleyman getting more victories cos if this is awesome, I do love that. The black market idea definitely has potential. The term tribes is rather loaded to say the least, and I feel this video very quickly loses any focus on the Aztecs to talk about Europe and things from a European perspective which feels like a missed opportunity, let alone the presumption of eventual European conquest which just seems baseless.
Also the Quetzalcoatl-Cortes association was largely invented post-conquest, as a means of syncretism.
as a Mexican who still sees the effects of colonization today, I think about this often
Wouldn't be born if that happened.
i Think it was necesary, if not i wouln't born, and the part of my state will be subjugated by the aztecs, whoever take power
@@Eidolon1andOnlyhe could be maya (they still has some notable populations in Yucatán )
@@chimera9818 Doesn't matter.
Efectos de la colonización..mestizaje ; cultura ( ya se extranjera) religión no brutal totalmente arrancacorazones ; un idioma de 600 millones de hablantes ; ciudades vireinales maravillosas la 1 universidad de América en Santo Domingo ; hospitales; carreteras tipo Europa ( de la época) etc.. si una aberración total🤣🤣🤣
This is very inspiring, and a believable background
Oh shit I didn't realize this guy talked about things other than early 2010s blockbusters.
8:29 I doubt that though, sure its just a what-if, but im pretty sure the aztects lacked the metallurgy needed for muskets, let alone the knowledge how to build them.
And maby spain left them to be with them self but it does not mean that other will not try or even spain or their colony of cuba will coming back and try again . I belive that they need Britin as an ally to not die .
You should have collaborated with DJ Peach Cobbler on this video. Bro pretty much got a PhD in Spanish Aztec first contact for his recent video series on it
DJ fr inspiring ppl
This would make a great role playing game setting.
The player is fleeing from the Old World to the New, the reason for which is up to the player, there are English & French colonies, the native empires, the privateer pirates, each are factions with their own relationships to each other, as well as lesser factions, player can join with whichever, fight with them in an upcoming war & so much more.
I really wish there was a game studio that did these alt-history scenarios as RPGs, I imagine, if done right, they'd be incredibly brilliant.