It isn't as simple as that. Especially when it comes to code, of course simplicity is great, but if you are really pushing for performance, code can get very complex chasing that performance increase. so just saying "simple is better" may not necessarily be true. Performance is better Linus has addressed this several times. And that way of thinking is really shown for example what they managed to do with Git and it's performance and usability over all other options, especially back when it was just coming up.
@@MrFreeze420 I think what he means is to choose the simplest option that fits the context (if certain details cannot be dropped, choose the simplest option that retains those details). I'm pretty sure it's people who stroke off to their own ability to unnecessarily over-complicate things that he refers to as being idiots.
Of course the greater the detail the greater the complexity as you start getting into the technical aspect of how things work, but there is still an emphasis on simplicity in most cases in relation to its complexity. For a given solution, there are usually multiple ways of solving the problem, of which there is a simplest method, and a most convoluted method. What Terry sees as an idiot is likely someone who chooses the convoluted method for no reason other than its complexity. If that added complexity offers some sort of advantage however, then in some cases it might be the preferred option (going against the simplest option rule). In terms of understanding the universe for example, it's complex for someone like me, but for some people it may seem a lot simpler (more obvious). If our ability to process information wasn't a limit, then the Universe would likely seem quite simple, where unnecessary over-complexity applied to things inside of the universe would then become apparent. If everyone had unlimited thinking power, there would be no leverage over each other, so there would be no motive or desire for people to show off. People would simply choose the simplest option that meets the requirements (fits the context). There would be no logical reason to choose an objectively inferior solution for the sake of complexity of showing off complexity was no longer a factor. What's funny is I wrote all of this because I'm struggling to find a simpler way of explaining my interpretation. Sad.
"An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity ... An idiot, the more complicated something is, the more he will admire it. If you make something so clusterfucked he can't understand it, he's gonna think you're a god..." "That's how they write academic journals. They try to make it so complicated people think they're a genius." Wise words, actually.
@マナンナンアナメ The worst part is that this obfuscation is intentionally designed to make you feel bad and inferior, so they can pat themselves on the back. Basically camouflaged and rationally justified narcissism.
What exactly were TempleOS’s innovations? It’s just an extremely simple OS with so many glaring omissions (no protection rings, no virtual memory, no proper task scheduling, etc) that it’s totally useless to anyone who isn’t a hobbyist. That’s primitive, not innovative. I get that the guy was talented, and it’s cool that he built a functional OS entirely on his own, but this just isn’t an especially useful piece of software.
@ATLmember the deal with TempleOS is that it did something completely different from what other operating systems were doing as well as being created by just one guy. Obviously, it has issues, and it's not like Terry was in the sort of mind state to make it intentionally useful for other people. However, it's a reminder that one very dedicated person can truly just do their own thing if they really want to. It didn't revolutionize anything or really do anything besides exist as part of a tragic story, but it was something truly different than anything else you'd see out there. I think in some cases, that's enough.
Hi, Linux fan. Gotta say, Terry has a point about file permissions, like wtf is it even doing on desktop versions of linux. I think we can all learn a lot from Terry's design philosophy, it's sad to see he's gone.
he said meds would dull his mind. He wouldn't be able to do the only things he likes. Frankly considering that TemplOS/programming is his only skill, it seems illogical to take it from him since it seems like he wouldn't be able to do much in such a state.
@@MsHojat The form of help he needs doesn't have to be in the form of meds. Group or individual therapy, proper nutrition and resocialization can altogether help.
B.M. you sound very authoritarian, just like the people he surely despised. "Help" is your euphemism for dominating him, seems like he was lucky enough to not get instrumentalized and hospitalized to a drooling brain. I guess he did not harm others and among many questionable things he also had many interesting and rather inconvenient things to say. Your "help" was the last thing that would have helped him. Most people you have to take as they are or avoid them. Only if there are criminals or bullies or alike you should stop them harming others.
@@raymundhofmann7661 "... you sound very authoritarian.." you say? Well isn't that just one giant jump to a quick judgment? Talent like his could have been cultivated further for his own benefit. If he was surrounded by skilled & supportive people instead of being bullied into isolation, where do you think he would have been now? Everyone needs help -- that includes you, me, him and everyone -- it has nothing to do with controlling him.
@@mediocrebanters Your authoritarian claim of superiority again: "could have been ... for his own benefit". You would have been his worst bully, because you legitimize it as "help". Just like so many SJW's and obsolete women with their perverted childless mother instinct in the "helping industry" these days manufacture their superiority and their victims (child surrogates). The curse of our times. And kittens are the surrogate for the desperate.
This man was at his best when talking code. He might even fool you for a typical smart eccentric. Schizophrenia is such a bad illness. Sad to see him go but at least he escaped his head.
It's about management of very limited resources. If someone brings donuts to the office, and you decide to take over half for yourself, people are going to find that rude.
@@ph1losopher lol yeah. Loved the irony of talking about other programmer's waste and how efficient his OS is then proceeds to dump a ridiculous amount of resources on it.
@@ph1losopher The OS cannot allocate memory. The OS _manages_ memory and allows its processes to allocate memory _from_ the OS using native methods. I guess the problem in his case is that his OS isn't properly optimized for the VM it's running in, and the vm thinks the guest os allocated all the memory even though it doesn't actually internally.
@@Devlin20102011for a computer to understand his code, the code needs to be compiled into some form of binary representation - an executable, or an os image, as is the case with temple os. the thing op is referring to is the fact that Terry's HolyC compiler take in 70.000 lines of code, parses it, compiles it and produces some form of an executable in less then a second. to be quite fair, its not even considered to be that fast in the modern day and age, but the tech he used is still impressive!
@@flhsdrummer07410 Because he says so in another video. "Modern computers do everything in Memory space." he says "TempleOS uses that abandoned IO space for IO." something like ....that call it a paraphrased quote
@@dualia-s74m no, just too many things done... an os, a compiler, a complete new paradigm, and of course listening to what God had to say about the whole thing.
"That's how they write academic journals.. They try to make it so complicated, people think you're a genius." Sooo true.. That's also how they teach upper division college courses.. They take the simplest concept and present it in the most convoluted way possible.. So annoying. This guy really knew what he was talking about.
I'm in the Navy and that's how some people conduct their training. They take a very easy to grasp concept and explain it in a way that make it near incomprehensible. I learned this and just assumed people do this to stroke their egos?
My girlfriend wanted to become a kindergarten teacher which now is a Bachelor degree in Norway. So she needed to go to a university college for three years and the books she got was absolutely ridiculous. They had about 200 to 300 pages, but could easily be half that length if the authors (who were all previous doctorates at the same school) didn't put in all these completely unnecessary and redundant wording and phrases which made it way more complicated and difficult to read and understand. She gave up and just became an assistant instead because she wanted to work with children, not take a doctorate in child psychology. I'm not saying a higher degree should be easy, but damn, they make it so self-righteous and pompous.
11:52 Two thousand Physicists at CERN None of them are famous. None of them made something original, but they're walking around as they're the same league as Tesla When you're following a trail, you're not a trailblazer
Interesting how he refers to Temple as a motorcycle, saying that motorcycles are easy to crash, like temple. However, if someone knows how to drive it, you shouldn't crash. Way way different perspective than user-friendly development of the modern day
I'm pretty sure user-friendly and non-crashing was always a thing people aimed for in computers. We're just used to modern GUIs because we use that every day: they're not actually any less complicated than a PDP11, if you are starting from no knowledge.
“User friendly’”, whether real or perceived (as in Apple), is the only approach that sells. The average user is unskilled, and whatever approach caters to them will make money. The skilled users are always a tiny minirity. Only a Socialist dictatorship could still impose a C64 that crashes on every seg fault on people. That train has simply passed.
I come from a C64 background and I always was in awe of how truly clever programmers made that machine perform tasks it wasn't designed for. Terry talks total sense here. I don't necessarily agree with everything but pushing existing hardware and scaling down makes for a truly better, faster experience. Someone should pick up where Terry left off and try and run with this.
I don't know enough, but this is truly inspiring. I like his whole approach. I am a programmer and I find it troubling how "Complicated" some of the code is where I work.
I think the issue in today's day and age is simply that most programmers need to solve problems fast and not elegantly. I like to think of it as my job as industrial mechanic. I was taught how to Polish metal, cut out gaskets, manufacture entire parts that were no longer available. Then you get thrown into the production environment where the only thing that matters is time. Everything is a hackjob, you barely ever have time to improve anything, fuck making a part that truly fits this machine needs to run just weld some shit onto it. From what I hear in my circle of it student friends its basically the same in most applications and websites nowadays. You need to push features and fixes fast, not good. You snooze you loose. The average user does not care how a program looks under the hood or how efficient it is as long as he can watch cat videos on RUclips and zerk off on the hub. So with more and more programs including more libraries and bloat than they technically need the demand for better hardware rises. In the past porogrammers had to be efficient with performance and space because the average PC had little of either. Nowadays you are just SOL if you try to get even browsing done on a 4 year old laptop.
His vision was onto something. Think about it, no matter how fast hardware gets, we are always have to wait on the software. I do not see this ending in the foreseeable future.
Do you see anyone actually using it in the foreseeable future? Guy dies, suddenly everyone thinks he was a genius. He wasn't. Even. Close. Anybody who writes code for a living is chuckling at some of his comments.
@@plantain.1739 , I think this is what happens to Influential people. They do need help. But what happens? they get meemed, ridiculed, attacked, murdered. But usually driven to the margins. Ya gotta think: Why do we have a huge homeless population? and Why are about 20% of them pure genius no drug, or alcohol. Why do we invent malevolent names for genius, like aspergers'. Why is genius a "disorder" to the main stream thinker? Because genius (in the hoi paloi) foments revolt. Doesn't it?
@@clouds-rb9xt yt? ofc he wont be remembered here considering how censored yt is nowadays. as long as the hatred for the three letter bois exist, along with the term used to describe them, terry will always be remembered somewhere even if hes not remembered by his programming skills.
people talking about his coherency, I believe that's true for every mentally ill person, and we "able minded" types are the ones who misinterpret their thoughts because their speech isn't fully working. It really breaks my heart when I see or hear of old people, going through the final stages of life, be either treated like children, just ignored all together, or even losing their rights and being put in a home, all because of their illnesses. I can only imagine how lonely it must be to be trapped in a body with no way to express yourself. It's really sad to think about. It's always worth it to be kind and patient with old or mentally disabled people. They're often much wiser than people think, and often have unique world experiences. Sure, you're not going to get a crystal clear testimony suitable for court, and sure, the words they DO say can be horrible, offensive racial slang from a different time for example, but you will still get the jist of it, and that really means a ton, and it lets them survive through their knowledge. Knowledge that's there, even though they can't demonstrate it themselves. Compare to Shelly Duvall's Dr. Phil interview for example. Dr. Phil is clearly making a mockery out of her by taking everything she says hyper literally, but if you just listen not-so judgementally, you can see that she just lives a typical old lady life. But it's so easy to be like "well said this or that, so they must be craaaazy!! who needs context clues??" Also yeah I agree about Torvalds, lol. If anything Terry went easy on him. IMO Torvalds took a potentially revolutionary "Software Freedom" movement and turned it into a banal "Open Source" movement where developers do slave labor for microsoft who doesn't give anything back, featuring GPLv2
he's basiclally describing a huge problem in PCs these days. it's ridiculous how much CPU we waste by creating huge systems to do simple tasks, which is only natural when the low-level is hidden away from the user.
"I can crash my OS. Guess what - if you lean too low on a motorcycle you crash. Don't do that" Nice analogy. But it's intuitive to a human that leaning will cause a vehicle to crash. Less intuitive when your system crashes due to a tiny typing error or allocation mistake. But I guess his point it’s not the end of the world if a PERSONAL computer crashes. It’s not a mainframe or a bank. A crash doesn’t affect an entire company, just one person. So making a PC crash proof doesn’t have to be top priority if that requires making everything overly complex.
Except you can make a PC that's pretty much crash proof without making it overly complex with a bit of planning. It's also not economic just to half-ass your idiot-proofing. Companies use UNIX for mainframes. People also use UNIX for personal use. Neither of them are crashproof, but they aren't 'motorcycles'. Terry's ideas are so obviously just a bunch of small shreds of plausible sounding ideas grounded in insanity. I don't understand why there are some many people thinking what this guy says is gospel.
@@dav356it's about learning potential who cares machines like the C64 are how programmers really got a feel how things work back in the day now you could work with an Arduino and a breadboard or you could use his os it's not for everyone but it's not useless either
Poor guy. His grasp of the world around him wasn't very firm, but he did clearly care about users and the user experience, and there's something really admirable about him wanting his users to be knowledgeable enough and engaged enough on their own computers to be their own developers.
This video is important for students who want to become good computer scientists. I don't necessarily agree with some of Terry's viewpoints, but if you're aiming to be a well-rounded CS major, listen to the video and study up on any of the talking points that you don't know about or don't understand well. Schedulers, spin locks, concurrency, linkers, etc.
@@__.__-_. Fellow schizophrenics crowding around the schizophrenic words of an insane man. Terry's advice is all idealistic and none of it is grounded in reality. If TempleOS was supposed to be a motorcycle, it's more like a wheel on a stick with glitter on it. Both his words and whatever this is unstable and filled with crap that look good to people who don't know any better.
He's right on so many points. Mainframe OSes make terrible personal computers. They were designed to keep multiple user accounts from interfering with each other, but individual accounts are completely disposable. All applications have full access to the "Home" folder. Security on individual accounts is 100% application centric, so if your web browser gets compromised, ALL your data is at risk, both locally and even on the cloud. It's madness! Signed drivers, encrypted kernels, and Secure Boot are really poor attempts to make people feel safe and secure. It's all bogus snake oil designed to secure business interests. Nobody cares about the security of YOUR data. If they did, every OS would have real backup software bundled by default. Even most Linux distros don't do that (but they ARE pushing for snapshots and cloud integration. Yeah... big whoop). TempleOS is kind of a weird toy overall, but there's a lot that can be learned from alternative projects like this. Linux (UNIX) and Windows (VAX) are not going to serve us well for the next few decades. The mainframe philosophy is just flat-out wrong for PCs.
Windows has always had a user desktop philosophy as has Mac, it has tried/trying to be a Cloud system which is essentially the same thing as mainframe. I disagree with Cloud immensely and I would never store anything confidential on it. And Linux as this guy says never got out of the mainframe philosophy, it's file structure and distros are a mess of that throw everything together from multiple third parties philosophy.
Why? Main frame operating systems are great, they are perfectly modular to server any purpose really, from a personal computer to a server farm. They're great.
@@polecat3 Pretty sure OP has used linux before, but I feel like he's just wrong in the philosophy of mainframe not being a good thing. That's what a kernel is, a mainframe for a highly modular system, it makes perfect sense that is how rest of the system should function aswell. Maybe OP just really likes quirky stuff like sudo random generated melodies.
@@SloppyPuppy Maybe. In my experience, Linux has been very good to me. Problems are easier to diagnose and fix. If someone doesn't like Wine and some fiddling then point taken
@@psychopathmediaNo, he doesn't say so, but everyone else seems to believe that. They think he's doing stuff no one else could think of when he really just made design choices no one should make based on real world considerations, like user skill level and security.
Rest in peace terry davis. When I started coding earlier on I was obsessed with his story, especially as someone living with mental illness which was severe at the time. His wit and creativity will continue to inspire
Man, Terry's moments of clarity are so fucking straight to the point. Some of his ideas involved here aren't just luck or some rant. He understands the requirements, concepts and foresight that it takes to make cutting edge software. It's almost like TempleOS is a research PhD thesis in mental illness. Obviously his code reflects his isolated state, he wrote a fucking OS that exists only on simple hardware or VMs. I think his experiences at Ticketmaster and such really fucked his mind up. However his foresight into KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) for large monolithic programs is actually correct. As our demands get larger we need more small optimized machines than we do big ones. Terry's engineering downfall was forgetting how cheap it is to deploy a million VMs in the near future. But he was most likely too sick to really understand at that point, despite the racist spouts that you simply couldn't control; I truely appreciate your software and methodology. RIP T.A.D. 2018 PS: I never mention security or networking in this comment, which I know this is lacking. However, this is what I'd like to call an idea in a vacuum. It's astonishing, especially in context to other home grown projects, but doesn't live up to our current infrastructure.
Yeah that's why I love all the original UNIX/Linux terminal commands because the rule was write a binary that does one job and does that one job well. Usually makes things not only simple but powerful and effective
@@arcuz7862this is a retarded worldview, but even putting that to the side, he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. If there were ever a mental illness worthy of being described as life altering, that one would be it.
Why all these jealous, vile, spiteful comments? I bet they're all from jeetcoders failing in silly-con Valley at their crap jobs unfugging crufty bloated shovelware
That would not work. The streamed file API would use virtually nothing and the full file API would literally fail on larger files. This is a terrible place to remove apis.
@@Christobanistan His point in removing 3rd party developers is that he -won't have to compile large files- because he will have eradicated code from morons that don't share his mindset, completely, so he literally doesn't have to worry about that use case. That's his point. Why would he need to assume worst case in a feature implementation when he can always assume it's handled way before it gets that to point (sociologically)? This is why he makes the motorcycle reference. Yes, it fails on huge files. Don't write source in files so huge you crash your compiler. See?
There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. RIP Terry
The thing is, Stallman never liked or cared for Unix and their design choices. He only implemented them in GNU to ensure compatibility with other software. Stallman loved his time share systems with no user persmissions. I believe he also liked Lisp Machines. Sadly, none of those things exist anymore. In that sense he was somewhat similar to RMS: both of them used GNU for practical reasons, and their preferred computers and paradigms are long dead.
Stallman also loves the HURD micro-kernel, which may or may not be superior to what is in use today. But we'll never really know because widespread adoption trumps superior works, always. Sad as that is. As for Unix, I wasn't aware, although I've heard him talking shit about Linux and the fact that it is built with a lot of GNU code and doesn't have GNU in it's name.
5 лет назад+17
I appreciate his vision on simplicity. I agree that one should be able to do much with little instead of little with much, as it has become in this day.
It was a great OS for Terry Davis, who was fighting the Commodore 64 war from the 1980s. Yeah, your OS ran your code great, and if it crashed you had nobody to blame but yourself. But the vast majority of people run programs written by other people, and it's the job of the OS to get those programs to play nicely with each other.
@saltedmutton7269 mog has been a word for a long time in the fitness community before it became a common brainrot term. But the fact you didnt know that means youre either pretty young or started working out not too long ago, or dont work out at all
@@maksimkirandziski9660you could have just ended your comment after the fitness statement. Or better not comment at all. You're the book person terry is talking about you clusterfucked idiot 😂
If I understand him correctly- when you want a computer to act like a mainframe it will, and you will wait for your computer. When you want a computer to act like a C64, it will always wait for you, even when the hardware was designed to be used like a mainframe. This is a very significant detail to private enterprises. What a terrible loss. RIP Terry.
@@johnnycochicken It's a stupid trade off when you could just run gentoo and use it in the shell only to run a monumentally more secure, cross-compatible and stable system. It's all fun and games till you realise you need to contact the manufacturer of your printer to requst a custom driver for your printer like it's 1976 all over again. He is doing what everyone was doing at computer clubs worldwide 50 years ago.
There's a lot of extra work making everything idiot-proof. Idiot-proofism introduces all kinds of human abstraction that isn't particularly computer friendly. I share Terry's vision that it is not the cars fault if its driver crashes into a tree due to poor operation of the car.
Consumers are fucking morons, consumer products have to be made for fucking morons, people don't even grasp basic file navigation, how the fuck are they going to know how to properly pilot a computer that can crash easily? Programmers sure, we can learn anything, but the average person can't even handle basic terminal commands
But its not consumers that really drive innovation. It's the business world. Can TempleOS run applications that run finite element modeling of a bridge construction to see points of failure and stress concentrations?
It was never the cars fault. Yet if an engineer can design a car that will prevent crashing yet still retain the users control outside of such exceptions, then why not make that advancement?
im genuinely shocked how much sense he is making at times, his bit about file permissions in consumer products totally rings true; it always kinda felt out of place at times but i couldnt put my finger on it
@@atiedebee1020 because the way they are designed excels in large workgroups with actually relevant access distinctions and actual superusers/admins requiring further access. I just don’t think it scales down very well to the way the HUGE majority of consumers interact with their operating system, most users aren’t even aware of any possible usecase for more than one user account, most users don’t access files over their local network and if they do, pretty much always over some fancy interface provided by their NAS, most users don’t even think about all the intricacies irreplaceable in large deployments but overcomplicated for 99% of consumers and bordering on illogical when scaled down that way. I wouldn’t go so far as saying it should completely be cut out but the whole cluster of account management and permissions desperately needs an overhaul
File permissions have applications beyond multi-user systems. It also prevents processes with user level access from modifying things that the user wouldn't normally need to access, like core operating system files. The obvious use case here being a compromised user (eg, a virus/trojan/whatever malware gets executed, someone with unauthorized access, whatever) would be mostly unable to cause system wide damage, at least without jumping through further hurdles. IMO throwing away file permissions with the justification of "life sucks, get a helmet" is a pretty myopic take of the situation.
@@jonasghafur4940file permissions allow for easy restriction of critical resources. There is a very good use case which has been users by all the nixes for a very long time now, it works really well.
To me watching Terry Davis is like watching someone like Nikola Tesla or Dennis Ritchie struggling with their mind. This guy could have made millions and changed the world if his illness wasn't so severe.
Tech fruition is a real phenomenon. You can often predict it. For example, we started with two color displays, went to 8, 16, 256....etc, and realized 'Tru Color' (one byte per channel) by around 1990, with (basically) more colors than human's can distinguish between. As soon as we hit that obvious fruition point (enough colors for practically every usecase), we stopped adding more colors, and immediately refocussed on reducing the cost per color. JPG and PNG came out about five years later, but we never added any more colors, to this day, one byte per channel, because that actually is enough for anyone. The same thing is true of audio: Blips and beeps evolved into CDs (again, with rapid development over a few decades), but that was good enough, so we stopped increasing the audio quality, and started lowering the price per sample, with MP3 and AAC coming out a few years later. Specs and performance *should* only improve while there are usecases that the current tech is not advanced enough to address. From that point onwards, every advance should be a cost-reduction. Businesses often push in some other direction, so a technology's fruition can be denied and delayed for a while in some cases.
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I completely agree with what he is saying on scaling. I used to web dev and websites got to a stage where they were nice looking and fully functional, then it all went into frameworks, now you have websites that all look the same, work the same and are so heavy they eat up your computers resources. I had a guy tell me he was a web dev. I asked him what did he dev in and he said to me that he downloads Wordpress templates and installs them. Doesn't know HTML, CSS, JavaScript, doesn't do any kind of template design. On desktop, although you can do great things with 3rd party addons most programmers programming in Python are just calling libraries without any understanding of how things work. This is fine for the customer of course but it means these programmers will never innovate.
The more sadder part is that even that so called point of "fine for the customers" is just an externality inflicted on the user to waste financial and computing resources on such software until several months to a year passes by and the application exposes the client to security vulnerabilities notwithstanding an extremely slow lagging application. That client will have to pay devs again to re create the same solution with similar results rather than the client focus their resources on addressing innovative ideas that other markets are reluctant to address.
Unfortunately, it’s never the trailblazer that becomes famous. It’s the first train to run on the tracks to get the renown, not the men who laid the tracks. While both inspiring and sad, Terry laid an entire railroad by himself.
What this is is a man who wants something very specific out of computers, ie the functionality and philosophy of the C64. But many of us DO want to run many different applications at once. Terry just doesn’t. That’s okay, but we need to remember that people have different wants/needs.
The philosophies for Windows and Linux are completely different. The Windows philosophy is the user sits down and opens their app to do their job, the OS is insulated from them. Mac is the same. The Linux philosophy is the hobbyist philosophy, you have to tinker with the system to make it work.
Terry is right, there are millions of people in millions of professions, but only the ones that do something unique and new are considered genius and are remembered. You may do well following an existing trail, but you won't become a trailblazer and be immortalized.
Yeah, I shared a lot of his basic principles back in the 1980's. That worked swell but only up to a point. Eventually you hit a wall where you just can't do some important new things or load foreign code or interface with large subsystems. Eventually other folks have written fantastic code beyond your capabilities and you can't interface to their code. Big oops, eventually.
@@FunkyEspelhoCat I dont think he was actually racist. You can watch some of his old videos where he is arguing with his mom and dad you can tell he wasnt racist. I honestly think he just thought the cia was sending black people after him
@iraniansuperhacker4382 i think he despised the CIA so much it was unreal; he was just throwing around the most hateful words that came into his mind. You can tell he's legitimately scared in that famous prank call video. I always laugh but I feel sorry for him, I thought my headspace was bad but that man's life must have been a living hell
I actually tend to agree with Terry Davis' description of people who swear by doing everything in Linux as being akin to cultists. It really is mindboggling at times when you see coders write programs that only work by running a linux virtual machine in another operating system, I've actually worked with people who have deliberately done this just to appear "more techie than thou" or because they have been brainwashed by bad teachers into scaling things up to the point that they become a dense clusterfuck when they could have easily made a program from scratch with a neat and tidy main code that can call its own native libraries written in a C or C++ compiler and made into an executable program.
@@aduantas Then you need to remove that mindset. If you are writing a program for personal use, that's fine. If you want to aim for a commercial market, don't do such things. Accessibility is better.
He makes some good criticisms of the mainframe philisophy of personal computing, but even the best version of templeos Terry could have made would not have replaced "mainframe" PCs, so long as it continued to lack networking and third party code. I think even if the C64 philosophy had been given a fair shot, C64 style devices would still be niche, because not everyone wants to be a "user developer", they just want to be able to install a third party app which does whatever they need
I actually understood his analogy in terms of what he wanted to make. An OS for the guy who wanted to be an enthusiast yet have zero hand holding or safety just be very basic yet powerful. If only he hadnt gone schizo or had gotten helped properly.
I actually really liked his points about the whole Linux being a semi thing. It's a great system for servers and whatnot, but for a computer that one person is going to use and has enough knowledge to not need hand holding, a simpler OS is really nice. It's the reason I prefer MS-DOS to Linux. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that's the popular opinion in the OS sphere, so Linux is just the next best thing.
This man took the hardest route possible to build an operating system, and finished. My closest context I can give as a shoddy web dev, not using third-party library's to build a modern website (by yourself) would take months if it was doing anything even close to e-commerce, rather than seconds
I wrote music using functions in a video-editing scripting language Then this guy flexes hard on me by writing his _own OS_ and programming language and making music in that
when you are following a trail, you are not a trailblazer. This is extremely profound. Many people follow the "norms" thinking they are going to invent something revolutionary out of the box, when the opposite is true, which is 99% of silicon valley Telsa's AC had absolutely nothing to do with the accepted DC of the times. Terry was on to something..
Graphite is conductive and its particles will fly around in "zero" g, which is potentially hazardous to electronics. And it sucks to write with coloured pencils.
I really like linux, but I really like trying to do "lightweight" solutions. What I found funny is that when Linus on TED talks that he likes people with "taste" for coding he mentions this kind of thinking. Linux is only that many million lines, because it is cross platform and want to run well - but it surely contains a lot of lightweigh-like code in it, just it grew and scaled big because did not constrain themselves ;-). Btw if you pay attention, Terry also like Linus for this or that and I am sure he prefers it over for example windows 10 anyways :D. But he did not see any system that is truly lightweight. What is a shame that not even companies that work only on select hardware (khm, apple khm) ever tried to build lightweight OS even though they could and thus ended up having something more cluttered.
Nice reply, well said. Of course there are such lightweight OS variants that use a core Linux kernel (let's just say *nix since Unix is the alpha). And I've seen people strip away OS services they didn't need, which points to the truth that you can't compare tiny/light OSes with huge or bloated ones when they aren't providing equal services. If you don't need networking, wow, lots can be removed! No security? Even more. The hardware I used decades ago that ran Unix was so minimal and low-powered by today's standards that today I could run the OS on the cpu in my refrigerator! With Java and wifi/internet! LOL But once people wanted Linux to run on... everything... and do...everything, and be a server and desktop... it's not light anymore for sure. But then again, it can do a whole lot more than TempleOS right?
@@dav356 I totally use very lightweightly set up linux - and trust me a lot of people who use machine for WORK do that. Like alpine on my phone (with tiling window manager and wayland) or arch on my new laptop and arch32 (a bit also void linux) on my old laptop... My servers also run minimal linuces (mostly regular arch - sometimes on arm, sometimes x86). Big community use lightweight things.
![510 - Mildly Annoyed Terry Talks 'CIA' And TOR (TempleOS | Livestream) [2016]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HgcQqAum6JY/mqdefault.jpg)
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
"In academia, if it's good you publish it. In industry, if it's good you keep it secret"
So true.
TempleOS is in the public domain though 🤔
@@nosouponhead And he wasn't doing it for money, he wanted people to acess templeos as easy as possible
@@theamazinghippopotomonstro9942 He actually was trying to monetize it at some point, just didn't succeed
@sgfhk321 lol
@Villiam Snö Did he... commit suicide?
Terry talking about simplifying OS and bashing Linus reminds me of Diogenes arguing with Plato.
This is the best description I've seen of Terry.
Shid and fard
Except Diogenes was terrible and Plato was one of the greatest among the pagan Greek philosophers, if not the greatest.
Correction: It's like Plato arguing with Linus.
@@zusty9589 you just posted cringe
19:08 "An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity." Truly insightful.
bc idiot cant turn complexity to simplicity but genius can.
Arch Linux fanboys in a nutshell.
It isn't as simple as that. Especially when it comes to code, of course simplicity is great, but if you are really pushing for performance, code can get very complex chasing that performance increase. so just saying "simple is better" may not necessarily be true. Performance is better
Linus has addressed this several times. And that way of thinking is really shown for example what they managed to do with Git and it's performance and usability over all other options, especially back when it was just coming up.
@@MrFreeze420 I think what he means is to choose the simplest option that fits the context (if certain details cannot be dropped, choose the simplest option that retains those details). I'm pretty sure it's people who stroke off to their own ability to unnecessarily over-complicate things that he refers to as being idiots.
Of course the greater the detail the greater the complexity as you start getting into the technical aspect of how things work, but there is still an emphasis on simplicity in most cases in relation to its complexity. For a given solution, there are usually multiple ways of solving the problem, of which there is a simplest method, and a most convoluted method. What Terry sees as an idiot is likely someone who chooses the convoluted method for no reason other than its complexity. If that added complexity offers some sort of advantage however, then in some cases it might be the preferred option (going against the simplest option rule).
In terms of understanding the universe for example, it's complex for someone like me, but for some people it may seem a lot simpler (more obvious). If our ability to process information wasn't a limit, then the Universe would likely seem quite simple, where unnecessary over-complexity applied to things inside of the universe would then become apparent. If everyone had unlimited thinking power, there would be no leverage over each other, so there would be no motive or desire for people to show off. People would simply choose the simplest option that meets the requirements (fits the context). There would be no logical reason to choose an objectively inferior solution for the sake of complexity of showing off complexity was no longer a factor.
What's funny is I wrote all of this because I'm struggling to find a simpler way of explaining my interpretation. Sad.
"An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity ... An idiot, the more complicated something is, the more he will admire it. If you make something so clusterfucked he can't understand it, he's gonna think you're a god..."
"That's how they write academic journals. They try to make it so complicated people think they're a genius."
Wise words, actually.
@マナンナンアナメ The worst part is that this obfuscation is intentionally designed to make you feel bad and inferior, so they can pat themselves on the back.
Basically camouflaged and rationally justified narcissism.
And this is how presidents strive
noxxi knox Politicians and lawyers also do this
immense cope. sorry you failed algebra 1 bro
Continental philosophy summarized.
when youre compiling you better not use a lot of memory because its rude
Google Chrome: 🗿
Rust: 🗿
@@noodlery7034 C++ is worse at it than Rust
@@notparadox86 rust binary size is humongous
@@notparadox86 this is just blatantly wrong
Amazing how coherent Trey is when he's in his coding mindset.
Some kids bought him some food and interviewed him a few months before he passed and he sounded coherent as fuck when talking programming
@Haze The Space Commie ruclips.net/video/HXwNTw4I6Ok/видео.html
Who the fuck is trey.
It was his last mental tether
@@kennethcox6895terry davis' cousin, trey divas
When you are following a trail, you are not a trailblazer. -Terry Davis
I dig your user icon.
int count=0;
while(1){
if(count==1000000) return 0;
std::cout
"If you can't use command line, then you are nigger"
Terry Davis
What exactly were TempleOS’s innovations? It’s just an extremely simple OS with so many glaring omissions (no protection rings, no virtual memory, no proper task scheduling, etc) that it’s totally useless to anyone who isn’t a hobbyist. That’s primitive, not innovative.
I get that the guy was talented, and it’s cool that he built a functional OS entirely on his own, but this just isn’t an especially useful piece of software.
@ATLmember the deal with TempleOS is that it did something completely different from what other operating systems were doing as well as being created by just one guy. Obviously, it has issues, and it's not like Terry was in the sort of mind state to make it intentionally useful for other people. However, it's a reminder that one very dedicated person can truly just do their own thing if they really want to. It didn't revolutionize anything or really do anything besides exist as part of a tragic story, but it was something truly different than anything else you'd see out there. I think in some cases, that's enough.
CIA linux fanboys in this comment section.
You just run them over, that's what you do
Watch out, they glow in the dark
Its only 2 niggahbyte you fucking MIT
bitch boy
Hi, Linux fan. Gotta say, Terry has a point about file permissions, like wtf is it even doing on desktop versions of linux. I think we can all learn a lot from Terry's design philosophy, it's sad to see he's gone.
Watching this guy use and talk about his OS is just incredible to watch. Thank you for saving this video
R.I.P. Terry Davis. Should have gotten help to debug his mind.
he said meds would dull his mind. He wouldn't be able to do the only things he likes. Frankly considering that TemplOS/programming is his only skill, it seems illogical to take it from him since it seems like he wouldn't be able to do much in such a state.
@@MsHojat The form of help he needs doesn't have to be in the form of meds. Group or individual therapy, proper nutrition and resocialization can altogether help.
B.M. you sound very authoritarian, just like the people he surely despised. "Help" is your euphemism for dominating him, seems like he was lucky enough to not get instrumentalized and hospitalized to a drooling brain.
I guess he did not harm others and among many questionable things he also had many interesting and rather inconvenient things to say.
Your "help" was the last thing that would have helped him. Most people you have to take as they are or avoid them. Only if there are criminals or bullies or alike you should stop them harming others.
@@raymundhofmann7661 "... you sound very authoritarian.." you say? Well isn't that just one giant jump to a quick judgment? Talent like his could have been cultivated further for his own benefit. If he was surrounded by skilled & supportive people instead of being bullied into isolation, where do you think he would have been now? Everyone needs help -- that includes you, me, him and everyone -- it has nothing to do with controlling him.
@@mediocrebanters Your authoritarian claim of superiority again: "could have been ... for his own benefit".
You would have been his worst bully, because you legitimize it as "help".
Just like so many SJW's and obsolete women with their perverted childless mother instinct in the "helping industry" these days manufacture their superiority and their victims (child surrogates). The curse of our times. And kittens are the surrogate for the desperate.
based Terry putting the fun and simplicity back into computing
based anime avatar
gas all weebs tbh
like hell he did,the os he using is for tards
Boomer rip
@@alleif based Urabe avi.
“Linux wants to be a 1970s mainframe”
That hurts
history tells
and then you see TempleOS style to do things!
And TempleOS wants to be a 1980's children's toy.
@@jamespilcher5287 stay mad Linuxoid
@@jamespilcher5287 you were genuinely hurt by this lol
“you know what’s pretty crazy? if you lean over on a motorcycle, it crashes” -terry davis
Poetry.
"don't do that :)"
Too bad you have to lean when going around a corner
@@vali69 Swooooooooshhhhh, and over he head it goes
@@jaybee5478 uumm no... that was me continuing the joke...
This man was at his best when talking code. He might even fool you for a typical smart eccentric. Schizophrenia is such a bad illness. Sad to see him go but at least he escaped his head.
he commited seppuku :(
ruclips.net/video/1YTkeVXu3TM/видео.html
@@_yuri
>falling for the suicide narrative
The CIA got him.
the train driver was glowing
He seemed lucid, yeah. But a programming genius he was not.
4:25 using too much memory = rude
gong fir ad burton,look bach en an(o dom en)gears,owe way sys phonetic spy robot robbiz? tweet my maaan(u.s=green mobo asm general trump 10 bin?)!
It's about management of very limited resources. If someone brings donuts to the office, and you decide to take over half for yourself, people are going to find that rude.
@@ph1losopher lol yeah. Loved the irony of talking about other programmer's waste and how efficient his OS is then proceeds to dump a ridiculous amount of resources on it.
@@ph1losopher The OS cannot allocate memory. The OS _manages_ memory and allows its processes to allocate memory _from_ the OS using native methods. I guess the problem in his case is that his OS isn't properly optimized for the VM it's running in, and the vm thinks the guest os allocated all the memory even though it doesn't actually internally.
He's right about so many things. Bloatware is the fucking devil.
27:20 "Just man up and learn what malloc and free are." - My Computer Science education in one sentence.
The programming equivalent of "git gud"
@@psychopathmedia GIT!!??!?!?
Everyone’s laughing until he turns 70k loc into an executable in 1 second on random PC hardware from 10 years ago.
Seriously though. I thought the same
when he did that, my mind went straight to "that shouldn't be possible"
What does this mean to non computer savvy people?
@@Devlin20102011for a computer to understand his code, the code needs to be compiled into some form of binary representation - an executable, or an os image, as is the case with temple os.
the thing op is referring to is the fact that Terry's HolyC compiler take in 70.000 lines of code, parses it, compiles it and produces some form of an executable in less then a second. to be quite fair, its not even considered to be that fast in the modern day and age, but the tech he used is still impressive!
@@aasquared8191 wdym not even considered to be that fast
I have longer compile times with programs much much shorter. what are you referring to?
I wonder if he refers to background processes as "daemons"?
well his os is made with "holyc" so i wouldnt be surprised
"angels", maybe?
There aren't any. He wrote an interrupt routine. Processes are all in ring zero. (i think.)
lee frank why do you think that?
@@flhsdrummer07410 Because he says so in another video. "Modern computers do everything in Memory space." he says "TempleOS uses that abandoned IO space for IO."
something like ....that call it a paraphrased quote
"I have forgot how it works"
This is perhaps the most crazy or the most human utterance in the universe.
timestamp?
@@Moopzoo 19:58
this is wht happens when a genius gets schizph
@@dualia-s74m no, just too many things done... an os, a compiler, a complete new paradigm, and of course listening to what God had to say about the whole thing.
Lol no this just sounds like programming. Even if you write a relatively small program from scratch you'll forget some aspects of it over time.
I like the "think different" attitude and reevaluating the status quo.
"That's how they write academic journals.. They try to make it so complicated, people think you're a genius." Sooo true.. That's also how they teach upper division college courses.. They take the simplest concept and present it in the most convoluted way possible.. So annoying. This guy really knew what he was talking about.
I'm in the Navy and that's how some people conduct their training. They take a very easy to grasp concept and explain it in a way that make it near incomprehensible. I learned this and just assumed people do this to stroke their egos?
My girlfriend wanted to become a kindergarten teacher which now is a Bachelor degree in Norway. So she needed to go to a university college for three years and the books she got was absolutely ridiculous. They had about 200 to 300 pages, but could easily be half that length if the authors (who were all previous doctorates at the same school) didn't put in all these completely unnecessary and redundant wording and phrases which made it way more complicated and difficult to read and understand. She gave up and just became an assistant instead because she wanted to work with children, not take a doctorate in child psychology. I'm not saying a higher degree should be easy, but damn, they make it so self-righteous and pompous.
He reminds me of FRS. An electrician.
He was going to bring down the entire education system he had to be taken out.
@@SevenCompleted I never heard anything about that. Sounds really interesting. Would like some sources for that, if you have them.
Genuinely as an amateur programmer this is so inspiring. Terry could’ve been a great lecturer and teacher if it weren’t for his illness.
He still could have if he got the correct help and therapy
>therapy works
Ok Mr Sheckellberg
@@BigMan-kp6ug well, it works... but it kinda turns you into a vegetable
@@BigMan-kp6ug meds now
@@himalayo Nobody's calling Terry an amateur, Jack Stephen was referring to himself as an amateur.
11:52 Two thousand Physicists at CERN
None of them are famous. None of them made something original, but they're walking around as they're the same league as Tesla
When you're following a trail, you're not a trailblazer
Btw, to those reading the comment, he was talking about Nikolai. Not that slavic looking african business man.
What is the point of this comment?
The cernfirmation bias is strong in this spintax
Loved that comment too... This guy was so intelligent... Makes me cry that i never had the chance to talk to him.
Interesting how he refers to Temple as a motorcycle, saying that motorcycles are easy to crash, like temple. However, if someone knows how to drive it, you shouldn't crash. Way way different perspective than user-friendly development of the modern day
I'm pretty sure user-friendly and non-crashing was always a thing people aimed for in computers. We're just used to modern GUIs because we use that every day: they're not actually any less complicated than a PDP11, if you are starting from no knowledge.
@@balloonsystems8778 Yes, specially because GUIs are a lot more prone to crashing anyways
“User friendly’”, whether real or perceived (as in Apple), is the only approach that sells. The average user is unskilled, and whatever approach caters to them will make money. The skilled users are always a tiny minirity. Only a Socialist dictatorship could still impose a C64 that crashes on every seg fault on people. That train has simply passed.
Even more interesting that he says when you lean a motorcycle you crash, but yet that’s literally what you do when you want to turn
Although even if you know how to drive a motorcycle you are still very likely to crash and die because of someone else
Linux has 20 gears. The premission system is a nightmare.
God, this is a 100% truth.
Go back to DOS then you idiots lol
Agreed McGravier
@@entx8491
You're glowing, bud.
@@markjohnson8824 chmod -R brother. Fuck the whole thing up right good and proper.
@@theterribleanimator1793 chmod -Rv 777 / for true freedom 🤑🤑🤑
Iove how he casually drops the quote of the century 20 minutes into a random rant. Terry was most definitely a genius.
i feel high listening to this dude
lmao
You just gave me an idea
The worst part is if you're a decent programmer everything he says makes sense. You don't want to be a programmer.
Why man? @@bastardferret869
I come from a C64 background and I always was in awe of how truly clever programmers made that machine perform tasks it wasn't designed for. Terry talks total sense here. I don't necessarily agree with everything but pushing existing hardware and scaling down makes for a truly better, faster experience. Someone should pick up where Terry left off and try and run with this.
Did you write any ASM for it?
@@AliAbdullah-oi3wc sadly, no
I don't know enough, but this is truly inspiring. I like his whole approach. I am a programmer and I find it troubling how "Complicated" some of the code is where I work.
@@adamschneider868 there is beauty in simplicity. There is beauty in pure assembly.
I think the issue in today's day and age is simply that most programmers need to solve problems fast and not elegantly.
I like to think of it as my job as industrial mechanic. I was taught how to Polish metal, cut out gaskets, manufacture entire parts that were no longer available. Then you get thrown into the production environment where the only thing that matters is time. Everything is a hackjob, you barely ever have time to improve anything, fuck making a part that truly fits this machine needs to run just weld some shit onto it.
From what I hear in my circle of it student friends its basically the same in most applications and websites nowadays. You need to push features and fixes fast, not good. You snooze you loose. The average user does not care how a program looks under the hood or how efficient it is as long as he can watch cat videos on RUclips and zerk off on the hub. So with more and more programs including more libraries and bloat than they technically need the demand for better hardware rises. In the past porogrammers had to be efficient with performance and space because the average PC had little of either. Nowadays you are just SOL if you try to get even browsing done on a 4 year old laptop.
His vision was onto something. Think about it, no matter how fast hardware gets, we are always have to wait on the software. I do not see this ending in the foreseeable future.
Let me introduce you to our Framework version 16, now it will hold 250 classes in memory while you utilize 2.
Although artificial intelligence may expedite this process quite a bit.
Do you see anyone actually using it in the foreseeable future? Guy dies, suddenly everyone thinks he was a genius. He wasn't. Even. Close. Anybody who writes code for a living is chuckling at some of his comments.
David Invenio hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha
@@davidinvenio3094 Nice one glow in the dark
R.I.P Terry Davis.
WAT? He's *dead*? ...
...or just 'Net-Dead?
Dead and buried, yes. That's what the templeOs site says
he took the first train to heaven
Racist Google thinks this isn't English.
Man Terry was certainly a gifted man RIP Terry Davis.
he's homeless not dead, foo
@@leefrnk That's not what his sister said on facebook you fuckin dunmy.
Really wish the man got help. He could have been very infulental
@@plantain.1739 , I think this is what happens to Influential people. They do need help. But what happens? they get meemed, ridiculed, attacked, murdered. But usually driven to the margins. Ya gotta think: Why do we have a huge homeless population? and Why are about 20% of them pure genius no drug, or alcohol. Why do we invent malevolent names for genius, like aspergers'. Why is genius a "disorder" to the main stream thinker?
Because genius (in the hoi paloi) foments revolt. Doesn't it?
@@halfway2hell I didnt know at the time. I dont use face book, it's not trustworthy.
Starting with "I'm going to talk about Linus using spinlocks..." and then not talking about it in half an hour. :)
Marc Gràcia Poor man, he had a lot of mental issues, he probably forgot about it the second he said it
Visual studio 18gb install, community Edition needs Internet connection
Yeah, I used to have a crappy connection so it was fun trying to download it for a week. I gave up, GCC is awesome.
@Milton Waddams CodeBlocks works great as an alternative to Visual Studio.
VSCodium is my go to, it's an open source version of vscode which is a much lighter visual studio where you can download extensions to suit your needs
Get Visual studio 2008 express, lol.
Terry's videos are soothing.
They are indeed
they built nerds different back then
You show em terry!
It is so true about everybody's obsessed with scaling! we never think about scale down
Within....
Without...
My daughter says, "When I move my arm like this it hurts.
I replied, "Don't do that -- Terry from Temple OS"
Terry was something special, I hope he's remembered for generations.
We must keep him and his dream alive
@@tallon3925 so few videos on yt tho
@@clouds-rb9xt yt? ofc he wont be remembered here considering how censored yt is nowadays. as long as the hatred for the three letter bois exist, along with the term used to describe them, terry will always be remembered somewhere even if hes not remembered by his programming skills.
I’ll never forget
@@clouds-rb9xtthere are videos of him on waybackmachine site.
people talking about his coherency, I believe that's true for every mentally ill person, and we "able minded" types are the ones who misinterpret their thoughts because their speech isn't fully working. It really breaks my heart when I see or hear of old people, going through the final stages of life, be either treated like children, just ignored all together, or even losing their rights and being put in a home, all because of their illnesses.
I can only imagine how lonely it must be to be trapped in a body with no way to express yourself. It's really sad to think about.
It's always worth it to be kind and patient with old or mentally disabled people. They're often much wiser than people think, and often have unique world experiences. Sure, you're not going to get a crystal clear testimony suitable for court, and sure, the words they DO say can be horrible, offensive racial slang from a different time for example, but you will still get the jist of it, and that really means a ton, and it lets them survive through their knowledge. Knowledge that's there, even though they can't demonstrate it themselves.
Compare to Shelly Duvall's Dr. Phil interview for example. Dr. Phil is clearly making a mockery out of her by taking everything she says hyper literally, but if you just listen not-so judgementally, you can see that she just lives a typical old lady life. But it's so easy to be like "well said this or that, so they must be craaaazy!! who needs context clues??"
Also yeah I agree about Torvalds, lol. If anything Terry went easy on him. IMO Torvalds took a potentially revolutionary "Software Freedom" movement and turned it into a banal "Open Source" movement where developers do slave labor for microsoft who doesn't give anything back, featuring GPLv2
he's basiclally describing a huge problem in PCs these days. it's ridiculous how much CPU we waste by creating huge systems to do simple tasks, which is only natural when the low-level is hidden away from the user.
"I can crash my OS. Guess what - if you lean too low on a motorcycle you crash. Don't do that" Nice analogy. But it's intuitive to a human that leaning will cause a vehicle to crash. Less intuitive when your system crashes due to a tiny typing error or allocation mistake.
But I guess his point it’s not the end of the world if a PERSONAL computer crashes. It’s not a mainframe or a bank. A crash doesn’t affect an entire company, just one person.
So making a PC crash proof doesn’t have to be top priority if that requires making everything overly complex.
i would say true to this
Except you can make a PC that's pretty much crash proof without making it overly complex with a bit of planning. It's also not economic just to half-ass your idiot-proofing. Companies use UNIX for mainframes. People also use UNIX for personal use. Neither of them are crashproof, but they aren't 'motorcycles'. Terry's ideas are so obviously just a bunch of small shreds of plausible sounding ideas grounded in insanity. I don't understand why there are some many people thinking what this guy says is gospel.
@@dav356it's about learning potential who cares machines like the C64 are how programmers really got a feel how things work back in the day now you could work with an Arduino and a breadboard or you could use his os it's not for everyone but it's not useless either
I keep looking for spelling errors errors so that I can make fun of him...
BUT I CAN'T FIND ANY.
He is a genius yeah
He didnt capitalize the "o" in TempleOS in the beginning bit.
Poor guy. His grasp of the world around him wasn't very firm, but he did clearly care about users and the user experience, and there's something really admirable about him wanting his users to be knowledgeable enough and engaged enough on their own computers to be their own developers.
@@pedrogomes3068Schizophrenia
@pedro gomes he had mental illnesses that just got worse and worse.
@@pedrogomes3068he thinks that bioluminescent sub saharan employees of the governmental entities don't exist
@pedro gomes He suffered from schizophrenia.
@pedro gomes he unfortunately suffered from very bad schizophrenia
This video is important for students who want to become good computer scientists. I don't necessarily agree with some of Terry's viewpoints, but if you're aiming to be a well-rounded CS major, listen to the video and study up on any of the talking points that you don't know about or don't understand well. Schedulers, spin locks, concurrency, linkers, etc.
Or just listen to someone who isn't insane.
Even seasoned professionals can learn A LOT from him.
@@CarrotConsumer I agree. There are a million better ways to learn these concepts than by watching Terry's videos.
@@CarrotConsumer OK glowie
@@__.__-_. Fellow schizophrenics crowding around the schizophrenic words of an insane man. Terry's advice is all idealistic and none of it is grounded in reality. If TempleOS was supposed to be a motorcycle, it's more like a wheel on a stick with glitter on it. Both his words and whatever this is unstable and filled with crap that look good to people who don't know any better.
"when you're following a trail, you're not a trailblazer"
He's right on so many points. Mainframe OSes make terrible personal computers. They were designed to keep multiple user accounts from interfering with each other, but individual accounts are completely disposable. All applications have full access to the "Home" folder. Security on individual accounts is 100% application centric, so if your web browser gets compromised, ALL your data is at risk, both locally and even on the cloud. It's madness!
Signed drivers, encrypted kernels, and Secure Boot are really poor attempts to make people feel safe and secure. It's all bogus snake oil designed to secure business interests. Nobody cares about the security of YOUR data. If they did, every OS would have real backup software bundled by default. Even most Linux distros don't do that (but they ARE pushing for snapshots and cloud integration. Yeah... big whoop).
TempleOS is kind of a weird toy overall, but there's a lot that can be learned from alternative projects like this. Linux (UNIX) and Windows (VAX) are not going to serve us well for the next few decades. The mainframe philosophy is just flat-out wrong for PCs.
Windows has always had a user desktop philosophy as has Mac, it has tried/trying to be a Cloud system which is essentially the same thing as mainframe. I disagree with Cloud immensely and I would never store anything confidential on it.
And Linux as this guy says never got out of the mainframe philosophy, it's file structure and distros are a mess of that throw everything together from multiple third parties philosophy.
Why? Main frame operating systems are great, they are perfectly modular to server any purpose really, from a personal computer to a server farm. They're great.
Found the guy who's never used Linux
@@polecat3 Pretty sure OP has used linux before, but I feel like he's just wrong in the philosophy of mainframe not being a good thing. That's what a kernel is, a mainframe for a highly modular system, it makes perfect sense that is how rest of the system should function aswell.
Maybe OP just really likes quirky stuff like sudo random generated melodies.
@@SloppyPuppy Maybe. In my experience, Linux has been very good to me. Problems are easier to diagnose and fix. If someone doesn't like Wine and some fiddling then point taken
"If you're following someones trail, you're not a trail blazer" - Terry Davis
Said the guy who followed the C64 trail. :D
@@Christobanistansh
@@Christobanistan He didn't claim to be doing aynthing innovative in that regard
@@psychopathmediaNo, he doesn't say so, but everyone else seems to believe that. They think he's doing stuff no one else could think of when he really just made design choices no one should make based on real world considerations, like user skill level and security.
Can't get more genuine than Terry
@@TiTiTiTiT he was mentally ill, stop trying to demonize him
"An idiot admires complexity; a genius admires simplicity."
*Sad F-35 noises*
X32: cute mouf and is better than the f35 in every way except vtol
F35: *opens fan door*
chad p26b noises
Haha simplicity go BRRRRR
Laughs in f22
Rest in peace terry davis. When I started coding earlier on I was obsessed with his story, especially as someone living with mental illness which was severe at the time. His wit and creativity will continue to inspire
Cringe
@@23Butanedioneur stupd
@@23Butanedione your life is cringe
12:11 "when you're following a trail, you're not a trailblazer."
Love it.
Man, Terry's moments of clarity are so fucking straight to the point. Some of his ideas involved here aren't just luck or some rant. He understands the requirements, concepts and foresight that it takes to make cutting edge software. It's almost like TempleOS is a research PhD thesis in mental illness.
Obviously his code reflects his isolated state, he wrote a fucking OS that exists only on simple hardware or VMs. I think his experiences at Ticketmaster and such really fucked his mind up.
However his foresight into KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) for large monolithic programs is actually correct. As our demands get larger we need more small optimized machines than we do big ones. Terry's engineering downfall was forgetting how cheap it is to deploy a million VMs in the near future. But he was most likely too sick to really understand at that point, despite the racist spouts that you simply couldn't control; I truely appreciate your software and methodology.
RIP T.A.D. 2018
PS: I never mention security or networking in this comment, which I know this is lacking. However, this is what I'd like to call an idea in a vacuum. It's astonishing, especially in context to other home grown projects, but doesn't live up to our current infrastructure.
@Pedro Vaz arent you dark skinned?
@Pedro Vaz fuck off glowie
Bill Gates would murder to get this kind of technology 🤷🤕😫😪😔
Yeah that's why I love all the original UNIX/Linux terminal commands because the rule was write a binary that does one job and does that one job well. Usually makes things not only simple but powerful and effective
Terry was not racist, if you think that you don't understand Schizophrenia
19:25 Clusterfuctique
Terry had an outstanding vocabulary
I search this on google but damn is clusterfuctique
"clusterfucked, he can't understand it" that's what he's saying i think
Thank you so much for this. I was just searching around for some originals. RIP Terry
“The Linux people are all deluded.” LOL
It's honestly sad, seeing how much potential this man had. Terry Davis is one of the purest examples of how debilitating psychological illness can be.
bullshits. can you write an entire os if you are psycho or the bullshits you keep going?
Don't overdramatise it. Half of the stuff people get diagnosed with is completely made up and at best a ploy for attention.
@@arcuz7862this is a retarded worldview, but even putting that to the side, he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. If there were ever a mental illness worthy of being described as life altering, that one would be it.
@@arcuz7862 he had schizophrenia wym
Why all these jealous, vile, spiteful comments? I bet they're all from jeetcoders failing in silly-con Valley at their crap jobs unfugging crufty bloated shovelware
Imagine loading whole files and still using less memory than the average Linux or Windows install with streaming
That would not work. The streamed file API would use virtually nothing and the full file API would literally fail on larger files. This is a terrible place to remove apis.
@@Christobanistan His point in removing 3rd party developers is that he -won't have to compile large files- because he will have eradicated code from morons that don't share his mindset, completely, so he literally doesn't have to worry about that use case. That's his point. Why would he need to assume worst case in a feature implementation when he can always assume it's handled way before it gets that to point (sociologically)? This is why he makes the motorcycle reference. Yes, it fails on huge files. Don't write source in files so huge you crash your compiler. See?
There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
RIP Terry
This quote is so familiar to me, is it from fear and loathing?
@@Ully04 it is!
The thing is, Stallman never liked or cared for Unix and their design choices. He only implemented them in GNU to ensure compatibility with other software.
Stallman loved his time share systems with no user persmissions. I believe he also liked Lisp Machines. Sadly, none of those things exist anymore.
In that sense he was somewhat similar to RMS: both of them used GNU for practical reasons, and their preferred computers and paradigms are long dead.
Stallman also loves the HURD micro-kernel, which may or may not be superior to what is in use today. But we'll never really know because widespread adoption trumps superior works, always. Sad as that is.
As for Unix, I wasn't aware, although I've heard him talking shit about Linux and the fact that it is built with a lot of GNU code and doesn't have GNU in it's name.
I appreciate his vision on simplicity. I agree that one should be able to do much with little instead of little with much, as it has become in this day.
There is an ASMR quality to his voice if it weren't for his birds
That bird saved this reality from early harvest you would give your first born to that bird had you known it's role on all of this...
It quiets down afternoon the beginning
He dealt with the bird one day, thoroughly.
Very smart guy. For anyone who's into CS it's great to these streams where he talked about his operating system and his design decisions.
It was a great OS for Terry Davis, who was fighting the Commodore 64 war from the 1980s. Yeah, your OS ran your code great, and if it crashed you had nobody to blame but yourself. But the vast majority of people run programs written by other people, and it's the job of the OS to get those programs to play nicely with each other.
Linus brutally mogged by Terry
??? mog was a word two years ago ?!?!
@@saltedmutton7269 time traveller
@@saltedmutton7269looksmaxxing has been a thing for like 15 years Tiktok just found out about it recently
@saltedmutton7269 mog has been a word for a long time in the fitness community before it became a common brainrot term. But the fact you didnt know that means youre either pretty young or started working out not too long ago, or dont work out at all
@@maksimkirandziski9660you could have just ended your comment after the fitness statement. Or better not comment at all. You're the book person terry is talking about you clusterfucked idiot 😂
If I understand him correctly- when you want a computer
to act like a mainframe it will, and you will wait for your computer.
When you want a computer to act like a C64, it will always wait for you,
even when the hardware was designed to be used like a mainframe.
This is a very significant detail to private enterprises.
What a terrible loss. RIP Terry.
Profound.
@@questy44 except he is totally and completely wrong about that.
How stupid do you have to be to think this guy makes sense? lol
it's really not a dumb idea. think of the trade-off between responsiveness and throughput, for instance
@@johnnycochicken It's a stupid trade off when you could just run gentoo and use it in the shell only to run a monumentally more secure, cross-compatible and stable system. It's all fun and games till you realise you need to contact the manufacturer of your printer to requst a custom driver for your printer like it's 1976 all over again. He is doing what everyone was doing at computer clubs worldwide 50 years ago.
There's a lot of extra work making everything idiot-proof. Idiot-proofism introduces all kinds of human abstraction that isn't particularly computer friendly. I share Terry's vision that it is not the cars fault if its driver crashes into a tree due to poor operation of the car.
Consumers are fucking morons, consumer products have to be made for fucking morons, people don't even grasp basic file navigation, how the fuck are they going to know how to properly pilot a computer that can crash easily? Programmers sure, we can learn anything, but the average person can't even handle basic terminal commands
But its not consumers that really drive innovation. It's the business world. Can TempleOS run applications that run finite element modeling of a bridge construction to see points of failure and stress concentrations?
Font forget the Materials of the Car!
@@tropingreenhorn basically this.
computers should be only for people who use it for programming and engineering,
consumers only ruin our things
It was never the cars fault. Yet if an engineer can design a car that will prevent crashing yet still retain the users control outside of such exceptions, then why not make that advancement?
I miss this man. RIP Terry. If DSP can make a living today you should have been a millionaire.
im genuinely shocked how much sense he is making at times, his bit about file permissions in consumer products totally rings true; it always kinda felt out of place at times but i couldnt put my finger on it
Right- there is genuine insight there. Which is why he is popular
Why don't they belong in a consumer product
@@atiedebee1020 because the way they are designed excels in large workgroups with actually relevant access distinctions and actual superusers/admins requiring further access. I just don’t think it scales down very well to the way the HUGE majority of consumers interact with their operating system, most users aren’t even aware of any possible usecase for more than one user account, most users don’t access files over their local network and if they do, pretty much always over some fancy interface provided by their NAS, most users don’t even think about all the intricacies irreplaceable in large deployments but overcomplicated for 99% of consumers and bordering on illogical when scaled down that way. I wouldn’t go so far as saying it should completely be cut out but the whole cluster of account management and permissions desperately needs an overhaul
File permissions have applications beyond multi-user systems. It also prevents processes with user level access from modifying things that the user wouldn't normally need to access, like core operating system files. The obvious use case here being a compromised user (eg, a virus/trojan/whatever malware gets executed, someone with unauthorized access, whatever) would be mostly unable to cause system wide damage, at least without jumping through further hurdles.
IMO throwing away file permissions with the justification of "life sucks, get a helmet" is a pretty myopic take of the situation.
@@jonasghafur4940file permissions allow for easy restriction of critical resources. There is a very good use case which has been users by all the nixes for a very long time now, it works really well.
To me watching Terry Davis is like watching someone like Nikola Tesla or Dennis Ritchie struggling with their mind. This guy could have made millions and changed the world if his illness wasn't so severe.
he wasnt a sellout
He did change the world, and he was doing it for something far more valuable than money.
he wasnt ill he was contacted by God
He helped with ticketmaster before being contacted by god
@@deusvult8251 😂
Tech fruition is a real phenomenon. You can often predict it.
For example, we started with two color displays, went to 8, 16, 256....etc, and realized 'Tru Color' (one byte per channel) by around 1990, with (basically) more colors than human's can distinguish between. As soon as we hit that obvious fruition point (enough colors for practically every usecase), we stopped adding more colors, and immediately refocussed on reducing the cost per color. JPG and PNG came out about five years later, but we never added any more colors, to this day, one byte per channel, because that actually is enough for anyone.
The same thing is true of audio: Blips and beeps evolved into CDs (again, with rapid development over a few decades), but that was good enough, so we stopped increasing the audio quality, and started lowering the price per sample, with MP3 and AAC coming out a few years later.
Specs and performance *should* only improve while there are usecases that the current tech is not advanced enough to address. From that point onwards, every advance should be a cost-reduction. Businesses often push in some other direction, so a technology's fruition can be denied and delayed for a while in some cases.
1000% true. Really well said.
Thanks for archiving these.
at 19:07 he explains academic journalese.
edgar allen key poTex hung coppering maf ai nueral crowd worldy overlook hook,line an synch ka two rings renges zen springbok gang plank leap lor pas par dime meant shoe own how sys morte gate cliff heave lemming goal pile up two raf fix kit of lizst stem note unknown 'cell fish com piler'sea man tex?
two all beep patty special sauce let us jesus pick all son young honest as me pun.
Amen
I completely agree with what he is saying on scaling. I used to web dev and websites got to a stage where they were nice looking and fully functional, then it all went into frameworks, now you have websites that all look the same, work the same and are so heavy they eat up your computers resources.
I had a guy tell me he was a web dev. I asked him what did he dev in and he said to me that he downloads Wordpress templates and installs them. Doesn't know HTML, CSS, JavaScript, doesn't do any kind of template design.
On desktop, although you can do great things with 3rd party addons most programmers programming in Python are just calling libraries without any understanding of how things work. This is fine for the customer of course but it means these programmers will never innovate.
The more sadder part is that even that so called point of "fine for the customers" is just an externality inflicted on the user to waste financial and computing resources on such software until several months to a year passes by and the application exposes the client to security vulnerabilities notwithstanding an extremely slow lagging application. That client will have to pay devs again to re create the same solution with similar results rather than the client focus their resources on addressing innovative ideas that other markets are reluctant to address.
Cope
If that guy is a web dev, I'm a top CIA special operative (I played CoD Black Ops five times)
Anybody know of the video where he predicts PC’s removing disk drives?
rip king
Unfortunately, it’s never the trailblazer that becomes famous. It’s the first train to run on the tracks to get the renown, not the men who laid the tracks. While both inspiring and sad, Terry laid an entire railroad by himself.
A railroad to nowhere
This is really bad but really good at the same time.
@@SecuR0Mwhat are you on about?
@@presidentofallfoodnice8113 Look up how Terry died.
@@joestevenson5568Yeah he’s over-romanticized online. Dude had a lot of bad takes just like anyone else.
What this is is a man who wants something very specific out of computers, ie the functionality and philosophy of the C64. But many of us DO want to run many different applications at once. Terry just doesn’t. That’s okay, but we need to remember that people have different wants/needs.
The visionary we need, but not the visionary we deserve
People now make fun of linux but they use windows
The philosophies for Windows and Linux are completely different. The Windows philosophy is the user sits down and opens their app to do their job, the OS is insulated from them. Mac is the same. The Linux philosophy is the hobbyist philosophy, you have to tinker with the system to make it work.
@@manticore4952 cope shitdowns user
@@manticore4952 I don't know what you're talking about, pal. I'm using Manjaro as a daily driver and haven't had to go to terminal for months.
24:48 God told him no line numbers in his editor. He must have forgotten. It was originally published on his website.
@@sanmedina those damn glow-in-the-darks!
Terry is right, there are millions of people in millions of professions, but only the ones that do something unique and new are considered genius and are remembered. You may do well following an existing trail, but you won't become a trailblazer and be immortalized.
Having a hotkey that compiles your compiler is something only a true man of God would dare doing.
You can see the fragments of his mind without the schizophrenia in this video. Guy really was a genius.
This genuinely could be a great tool for teaching
And what did he teach exactly...?
@@hampuztt Did you even watch the video?
26:38 Global variables are bad because state management is the root of most complexity.
"If you got it from a book, then, you know, whatever..." ;)
He was talking about a simple game
“Linux wants to be a 1970’s mainframe” is exactly what Alan Kay said.
This channel must be treasured and protected.
Yeah, I shared a lot of his basic principles back in the 1980's. That worked swell but only up to a point. Eventually you hit a wall where you just can't do some important new things or load foreign code or interface with large subsystems. Eventually other folks have written fantastic code beyond your capabilities and you can't interface to their code. Big oops, eventually.
Bob Ross of programming
Yeah if Bob ross had Torrets.
Tourette's
Exept you know, more racist.
@@FunkyEspelhoCat I dont think he was actually racist. You can watch some of his old videos where he is arguing with his mom and dad you can tell he wasnt racist. I honestly think he just thought the cia was sending black people after him
@iraniansuperhacker4382 i think he despised the CIA so much it was unreal; he was just throwing around the most hateful words that came into his mind. You can tell he's legitimately scared in that famous prank call video. I always laugh but I feel sorry for him, I thought my headspace was bad but that man's life must have been a living hell
I actually tend to agree with Terry Davis' description of people who swear by doing everything in Linux as being akin to cultists. It really is mindboggling at times when you see coders write programs that only work by running a linux virtual machine in another operating system, I've actually worked with people who have deliberately done this just to appear "more techie than thou" or because they have been brainwashed by bad teachers into scaling things up to the point that they become a dense clusterfuck when they could have easily made a program from scratch with a neat and tidy main code that can call its own native libraries written in a C or C++ compiler and made into an executable program.
@@aduantas Then you need to remove that mindset. If you are writing a program for personal use, that's fine. If you want to aim for a commercial market, don't do such things. Accessibility is better.
Idk I do everything in Linux because Windows is trash
@@osk4r99 that mindset.... ive learned the hard way that you shouldnt choose something bc you hate the other things
@@tdpro3607 why not? used Arch Linux 7 years and only problem has been with Nvidia but they suck too...
What a strange and roundabout way to describe docker 😉
He makes some good criticisms of the mainframe philisophy of personal computing, but even the best version of templeos Terry could have made would not have replaced "mainframe" PCs, so long as it continued to lack networking and third party code.
I think even if the C64 philosophy had been given a fair shot, C64 style devices would still be niche, because not everyone wants to be a "user developer", they just want to be able to install a third party app which does whatever they need
Today's Windows is also like a Mainframe. You share the machine with 100 viruses and the NSA.
Based lol
All three channels linked in the description have been ended by RUclips for violating their policies. That's RUclips all right...
I actually understood his analogy in terms of what he wanted to make. An OS for the guy who wanted to be an enthusiast yet have zero hand holding or safety just be very basic yet powerful. If only he hadnt gone schizo or had gotten helped properly.
You can take this idea and make something like it
He was great because he went full schizo
all the best minds go schizo
How can one man be so based
Schizophrenia?
@@II-ii2um kinda makes sense, because there couple of them)))
Imagine not recording TempleOS videos in 480p like God intended.
I finally understand most of what he says in this video after passing an introductory operating systems course at Uni
Linux is based on old mainframes, but temple OS is modern, like a C64. We have 8GB of RAM, so I load whole files, just not bigger than 100 KLOCs.
I actually really liked his points about the whole Linux being a semi thing. It's a great system for servers and whatnot, but for a computer that one person is going to use and has enough knowledge to not need hand holding, a simpler OS is really nice. It's the reason I prefer MS-DOS to Linux. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that's the popular opinion in the OS sphere, so Linux is just the next best thing.
How do you explain MacOSX then ?
Why MS-DOS and not FreeDOS ?
@@marioliswhy FreeDOS and not CP/M?
@@devopstech7054Unix wrapped up and abstracted enough to make simple.
This man took the hardest route possible to build an operating system, and finished. My closest context I can give as a shoddy web dev, not using third-party library's to build a modern website (by yourself) would take months if it was doing anything even close to e-commerce, rather than seconds
You ain't a real web dev unless you can animate a humanoid character mesh in raw dog css no javascript
@@Huddy52 disgusting
@@Huddy52 you ain't a real frontend fiend if you don't model an entire 3d fps shooter in css
I wrote music using functions in a video-editing scripting language
Then this guy flexes hard on me by writing his _own OS_ and programming language and making music in that
when you are following a trail, you are not a trailblazer.
This is extremely profound. Many people follow the "norms" thinking they are going to invent something revolutionary out of the box, when the opposite is true, which is 99% of silicon valley
Telsa's AC had absolutely nothing to do with the accepted DC of the times.
Terry was on to something..
@Christopher Grant AC had everything to do with Tesla. Go back to your hole troll
Graphite is conductive and its particles will fly around in "zero" g, which is potentially hazardous to electronics. And it sucks to write with coloured pencils.
They used non graphite pencils of course
It's not a true story, and he said that
I really like linux, but I really like trying to do "lightweight" solutions.
What I found funny is that when Linus on TED talks that he likes people with "taste" for coding he mentions this kind of thinking. Linux is only that many million lines, because it is cross platform and want to run well - but it surely contains a lot of lightweigh-like code in it, just it grew and scaled big because did not constrain themselves ;-).
Btw if you pay attention, Terry also like Linus for this or that and I am sure he prefers it over for example windows 10 anyways :D. But he did not see any system that is truly lightweight. What is a shame that not even companies that work only on select hardware (khm, apple khm) ever tried to build lightweight OS even though they could and thus ended up having something more cluttered.
Nice reply, well said. Of course there are such lightweight OS variants that use a core Linux kernel (let's just say *nix since Unix is the alpha). And I've seen people strip away OS services they didn't need, which points to the truth that you can't compare tiny/light OSes with huge or bloated ones when they aren't providing equal services. If you don't need networking, wow, lots can be removed! No security? Even more.
The hardware I used decades ago that ran Unix was so minimal and low-powered by today's standards that today I could run the OS on the cpu in my refrigerator! With Java and wifi/internet! LOL But once people wanted Linux to run on... everything... and do...everything, and be a server and desktop... it's not light anymore for sure. But then again, it can do a whole lot more than TempleOS right?
@@davidinvenio3094 youre such a smug asshole about a crazy dead guys os being bad lol
The fact that plenty of lightweight OSes exist and nobody uses them might tell you that you need to think a little more about why this is the case.
the core linux kernel is very complex still. All the drivers aren't in userspace but instead stored in the kernel. That's insane.
@@dav356 I totally use very lightweightly set up linux - and trust me a lot of people who use machine for WORK do that. Like alpine on my phone (with tiling window manager and wayland) or arch on my new laptop and arch32 (a bit also void linux) on my old laptop... My servers also run minimal linuces (mostly regular arch - sometimes on arm, sometimes x86).
Big community use lightweight things.