What i do know is that the Armor % is totally fake against Physical attacks in the PvP Zone. I'm not sure why, maybe the % that shows is fake or we only get 65% of our total Armor. Maybe its multiplicative, instead of addictive with diminishing returns that the game doesn't show? Still... i'm much more interested in you talking about Thorns Barbarian, or how it feels when you activate instant death by just putting down a trap. These Thorns are very long, AoE isn't a thing in the game, activation on only hit isn't a thing in the game and Armor is fake, so... What's the point? The max DPS on a weapon barely reach 3000, but you equip Razorplate and you have 11.000 Thorns. This game makes no sense.
That's an explanation needed to be done! My 2cent: same math, but less calculations when you're choosing between %DR and +HP: * first number is your hp + HP * second number is your hp / (1-%DR) Pick what's higher.
True! Good point. That is another way to do it for sure. One of the reasons why I chose to show it the way that I did is that I'm hoping that people will start thinking about changes in terms of % change. This idea of % change is used everywhere in the game for optimizing your character, from dmg stats, to defensive stats. And once you have mastered the idea of comparing % changes, you can optimize everything as you progress your character throughout the game, instead of just at the end by copying someone else's build.
@@immodsr9348 you might want to clarify what you men by +HP is better with %max hp healing because its better than nothing but its not better than an equivalent amount of %DR Its true that %DR effects %base healing and flat amount healing where +HP does not but %DR and +HP have the same effect on %max healing If you take his 2 example characters and each receive a heal of 25% max life. The 75% DR character will receive 25 life and the 400 life character will receive 100 life but calculating for effective hp they both end up with 100 effective hp. 25 life with 75% DR = 100 effective hp. So as far as healing goes %DR has some advantages over +HP but +HP has no advantages over %DR. %DR narrows the gap between %max healing and %base healing and +HP widens it without providing any benefit over %DR. If all your healing is %max healing then this difference is irrelevant but we all have access to healing potions which have a flat amount as well as a %max component so at the very least %DR is making your potions more effective than +HP. Should be noted that the same is true for Barriers as well.
Base on your analysis of effective health between DR & EX HP, they both could be defined as two linear functions by deferent Slope K, defining % increase as Y (y=kx+b). Then they could be equivalent in Y and go down and up.
DR spreadsheet would be extremely helpful. My question is this: Would the spreadsheet contain other variables such a as Close Damage Reduction, Distant Damage Reduction, Damage Reduction based on how many Dark Shroud Shadows you have how many points are invested into that, etc. By the way, love the content! I love math so seeing how this works makes it a lot easier to make certain decisions 👍🏼 Keep it up!
okay hear me out...im 35 years old and I have NEVER liked math arithmetic. I not only understood this better than most teachers who taught me in school but I was actually excited to apply this to my min/max'ing in game! I appreciate you! Sub'd!
I think we could do with a video explaining how the EHP changes with multiple sources of DR because it is not reducing the original number, so stacking multiple sources of DR does not always produce a linear outcome. Armor does.
I was kind of thinking the same thing. If damage reduction has diminishing returns from multiple sources it seems like you’re adding a lot to the equation then.
Love the helpful analysis! EHP is a great way to think about how much we need of Life and DR to survive the biggest hit we expect. For example, if a boss is going to hit us for 50k, then we need to make sure our EHP is at least that, so that healing can take over after the hit. We also need to have enough as a buffer to smooth out damage spikes and allow healing to catch up over time. If we're only expecting small hits which healing is able to cover, then perhaps stacking more DR would be better to reduce the overall amount of damage we take. My 2c!
Was thinking the same, but it is not really diminishing as it always gives 10% damage reduction to the 25% damage you take. That is why he used EHP instead of the total damage reduction number itself.
@@immodsr9348it is diminishing returns, the tooltip literally tells you it is diminishing. i have 52% close DR, adding 10 only brings it to 57%, not 62%
@@riothegod1831that’s because the last 10% DR you add is occurred after all other DR applied. Do you even watch his previous video which explains about DR?
@riothegod1831 the 10% is not additive,l it's 10% more of the original 52%, so in turn 5.2% more meaning 57% damage reduction would be correct. The diminishing returns, is meaning it can never make it to 100% and will always be soft capped.
good explanation and it might work for a clean character but i believe its way more complicated in lategame base life only increases with lvl ups, additional flat life does not increase with % life and dmg red has diminishing returns except for different sources like dmg red against close / dmg red against elites /dmg red against poisoned etc i prefer life rolls over a 4th dr stat since most classes scale dmg or selfheal with it
A breakdown comparing how a skill’s damage scales with level compared to the value of a passive skill would be helpful for crafting builds. I never know when to focus on skill level versus when to go for more points in passives. Looking forward to your Armor deep dive video!
Depends on your specific build but rule of thumb is. 5 ranks in core skill. 1 rank in other active skills. They usually just apply status for your core to capitalize on.
For example, I see a lot of Druids put ranks in Trample, but with that build Trample merely casts your Core Landslide, which does the damage. Extra ranks don't lower CD, increase Unstoppable time, or add to the Fortify/Spirit gen. Waste. 4, 8, 12% damage to Nature Magic skills, 5, 10, 15% more Fortify etc are worth a lot more than putting ranks in Poison Creeper either. You only want Creeper for the 20% crit chance, apply the "Poison" tag to enemies, apply the "Immobilize" (which is also "Crowd Control) so your "+% dmg vs psn", "dmg vs cc" stats are getting used. No Druid build is stacking Poison dots like a Vanilla Warlock in 40 man Onyxia 😅 My friend had 5 ranks in his basic skill, and in Blood Mist saying it does more damage that way.. "Brother you can do more damage with the Bone passives. Blood Mist is just a panic button, not an attack..."
One thing to consider is that % DR is capped so if you're already getting a lot of DR you may find that you're hitting the cap regularly so adding more is largely wasted. It would be great if there was some in-game stats to display EHP, maybe leveraging your average DR in combat (this will often go up & down as a lot of DR sources are conditional; close, when crowd controlled, for x seconds after using a skill, etc.)
It seems to be much easier to find (relatively) significant HP increases than it is to find significant DR% increases. Something to take into account. At lower levels you will likely find neither a 1k HP boost OR a 10% DR increase. SO, in almost ALL scenarios, it is almost always better to take the DR% increase IMO. Of course the formulas above are great to help one consider what to take if such a choice is available at any given level.
I didn't learn anything new, but it was a good refresher nonetheless. At the least it quelled my inner critic that my formulae were indeed correct and that, I can assure you, is value I cannot buy with money. I came for the Rapid fire shenanigans, stayed for the math tutorials. Have a sub, sir.
That was a REALLY roundabout way to explain a simple concept. 7000/6000 = ~ 16% Damage reduction. 10% DR =~ 10% damage reduction. 11000/10000 = ~ 10% damage reduction and decreases as your life gets higher and higher. It’s pretty simple math
If you already have good gear with a lot of DR stacked it becomes less effective the more you add, so HP is almost always better. You mentioned that the DR values never change, but they do, if you stack them they lose effectiveness. Let's say you have 50% DR spread across gear, skills and paragon nodes, if you add another 10% from a new gear piece it's not going to be 60%, it will be something around 55% or so. This is why stacking HP and Armor is better than stacking DR.
Here's some confusion to add to the equation. Barbs have a talent that adds health multiplicitively. Therefore, adding 1000 health doesn't exactly come out to +1000 health to your new total.... I'm sure I can figure it out by multiplying it first though. And then how do the gems and paragon +health% go into this as well?
I'm a 85 rogue with about 6000hp. I had to pick between 900 +HP or 10% DR. After watching this vid, I'm going with the HP for now until I hit higher levels.
Hey Xarrio! Mad respect for your work mate, ive watched every single one of your videos and they are both coherent and informative! Could you share a general overview of what we should aim for ( as rogues ) in the end end endgame? Hp, DR, Crit chance+dmg etc? Thank you for your work once more, you're awesome!!
This is fundamentally assuming that there is no diminishing returns on Damage reduction. I haven't tested it yet, but often times Devs will put a maximum DR value into the calculation to limit DR stacking so as you approach that value your returns on investment drop. Though HP gives less % EH per point, it is is not subject to diminishing returns in the same way so it may well be more effective with higher Reduction values. Its somewhat tangential to this discussion, but Barrier and the Overpower mechanic (if they ever fix it) both play into HP which may also weight the equation towards HP.
There's got to be a formula to calculate exactly how high a life roll on a piece of gear has to reach to start outclassing a DR roll for more Effective HP, given your current HP as a static data point. So if you're at the Occultist rerolling a piece of gear you know exactly how high you want that life roll to get before you stop re-rolling over it for a higher value.
Having more health also means you need to do more healing in order to survive, saw this quite a few times playing with people that went the hp route when you vs something tough and they keep running out of potions.
I like to use DR all the time even if the hp seems slightly better. because the healing you take from any source is like 4 times more effective. potions have fix number they heal instantny etc. so for me there is no question even to think about more hp if I can take any reasonable DR, resist or block chance etc.
Wouldn’t the 2nd hit with 75% DR be 75% of 75 health now,, which would be 56 health after? Or does it always calculate based off the max health number, and not the actual current health number?
Hey, good question. The DR is reducing the HIT not your health pool. The hit from the wraith is always 100 dmg in the example, so the 75% DR will always reduce the hit by 75.
Great Video! Im not sure if my thoughts are correct but I think there is another point about damage reduction to think about: For example, lets say you have already 80%dr. Now you have to decie between +10% damage reduction or X more life. the 10% damage reduction would give you from you current state + 100% more tankyness and its verry unlikly to get a life roll that gives you +100% of your current health. 1000 incomming damage 80%dr => 200 incomming damage. 1000 incomming damage 90%dr => 100 incomming damage. from 200 to 100 incomming damage the value got halfed, so it gives you 100% more tankyness. I know the values of 80% dr cannot be achievied, but it makes my point more clearly. Or am I wrong?
The 10% Dr extra won't add like that generally. The 10% DR would remove 10% of the remaining dmg. 80% DR -> 20% Dmg remaining 10% more DR -> removes 10% of the 20% -> removes 2% dmg -> 18% dmg remaining
wasupp, in my expiriance, adding DR in late game its better overall. Anyway you will and up having 10k+ hp . For example , 10k hp + your Armor + DR its better then adding just flat HP :D .
Good enough explanation but where things get really tricky is when you have like 6 different sources of DR and of course these are not additive to each other it's a whole mess of calculations, my rule of thumb is anything less than 10% DR is not worth it (if you have other better DR sources) if you can get max hp or some nice offensive stats. The big thing with DR is getting the most from the same source, for example 2 times 25%DR is better than 5 times 10%DR and while the effective DR difference is not that big between the two having 5 different sources ties up a lot of gear affixes or legendary gear slots, in a lot of cases you want to use that "space" for something more critical to your build. Basically you want to balance the amount of sources for every stat, defensive or otherwise because no matter the stat every new source means diminishing returns.
With a high health pool adding more flat health is less effective but adding percentage health is more effective. Also, because of diminishing returns there is a point based on how much % damage reduction you have on your gear (not necessarily from armor) where adding more flat health even with a high health pool is better simply because you are adding such a small percentage value. Just wish I could tell where that point is. Pretty sad that trying to make my Sorc not get one shot takes a damn math degree.
Just to make things more fun... % life from gems and paragon only is applied to your base health (health without +flat life from gear). This is why when you put on a ring w/ +life on it, it goes up that exact amount. It isn't effected by +% life stuff from gems/paragon.
Good explanation but I hate that I have to sit and do math for the 1000 items I drop every run just to figure out a little increase in power. Bliz needs ro make it obvious as to what is an upgrade and what isn't... it would take forever to do this with all items
Can you do a video talking a little bit about the defensive abs utility skills of the rogue? There seems to be some interesting ones like the one that grants dodge or the one that provides DR from DOT that I never see used in any builds?
I have a question about imbuements, on some it has lucky hit chance. Does this transfer to every rapidfire shot and does it overwrite the lucky hit chance on rapid fire?
Adding DR, your life moves up and down in a more predictable way than in adding extra life. This is important in hardcore, where you want consistency in your "hp movement".
Good question... dodge effectively works the same as DR in terms of the average damage reduced. For example, if you had 50% dodge, then you would take 1 out of every 2 hits on average. Versus if you had 50% DR, then you would take half the dmg every time. Well half the dmg for 2 hits (for the DR case) is the same as the whole dmg for 1 hit and 1 dodge (for dodging). Generally tho people don't take dodge over DR because it is inconsistent. You either take 0 dmg or all of the dmg. And if all of the dmg is more than your health pool, you are dead. Versus taking half of the dmg each hit, you then have time to heal it up before the next hit hopefully.
it’s impossible to calc effective health in diablo 4 the way they spread different types of DR, resistance, and armor across stats unless you’re looking at strictly the stat “damage reduction,” which is only one of the several mitigation stats the way DR really works can’t be calculated as it depends on a dynamic system - what type is it, where is it when ability used, is it environmental or from a mob, do you have buffs, etc. it’s just way more complicated than it seems and there’s no calculation that’s gonna help
This was my only question as well, as DR in the game is so often conditional, it seems nearly impossible to calculate any kind of static amount for comparison.
Guy knows his math, can't pronounce occult, this proves the world makes you spec into 1 skill tree. I did not choose the math tree, thank you for the great explanations
While I do appreciate your explanation, I also want to point out some other aspects that might prove adding health (after 12k+ hp) is still more effective than DR. This is because we have paragon with potion healing and pant affix 20% barrier when using potion. Therefore, the more health you have, the more healing + barrier you will get. I have 20k health. So, when I’m injured, I basically heal 50% + 4k barrier.
Mathematically it works out the same actually (for the most part) because the DR applies to your barrier as well. So while you may have less barrier, the barrier has more DR. And same thing w/ paragon potion healing b/c it is % based. While it will heal less without as much health, that less health is stronger per point b/c of the DR. In fact, having less health and more DR is actually better mathematically if you have a lot of flat health increase. For example, when you heal with a potion, you get about 1200 flat health back at level 100+35% of your health. So that flat health becomes more valuable with more DR.
it doesnt stack like that in d4 though. 2 items that both have 10%dr wouldnt be 20% dr it would be 10% then 10% or remaining. so does that make HP better bec of diminishing returns?
If I have 20% damage reduction from close, as well as 20% damage reduction from distance, is that the same as having 20% damage reduction, or is some other mechanic where an enemy can not be either close or distant, such as if they are exploding or affecting me after their death?
Great info but I think cumulatively if you can get dr from multiple sources max health is a rare stat there’s passives in every tree in every class that gives some form of damage reduction But nothing gives max health to me max health is a multiplicative bucket of damage reduction
This is very good, my issue with this is though you arent calculating the scaling of monster levels and how that comes into effect and if the % variables change or dont change when you fight monsters 30 levels above you.
None of this in the video is affected by mob level that I'm aware of. The only thing that does change is the starting dmg of each hit that you are taking. Your effective hp doesn't change from life/DR on gear due to mob scaling. Now... that being said... your armor DR% does change from mob lvl... and that we will be going over in the armor video. Stay tuned!
Does the effectiveness of adding life also increase based on your current dr? I would think that if your character already has some dr that should factor into the choice. You discussed base hp but not the effect of your character's current dr when adding extra health. I would be interested to know.
At the end you are comparing the incrase in effective health vs increase in health. Which only works if the character has no DR prior to adding the new item. If the character already has damage reduction then you need to compute how much effective health the new amount of health is equal to
% wise, it works out the same even if you account for your current DR. The DR is just going to multiply the effective health pre-increase in health and the effective health post-increase in health by the same number. And then when you divide the two numbers to find the % change, that multiplier will cancel itself out.
I am more curious about healing recieved. How much is enough if you have enough health and damage reduction to survive multiple hits but quickly heal your health back up to full so you can take more hits.
maximum roll for +max hp is 1310 maximum roll for + dr is 10.7% so i opted for 13k hp (only have +max hp on rings and helmet) and have +dr or +armor wherever else it can roll
Thumbs up if you want a spreadsheet that calculates your effective health! Armor discussion is up next!
What i do know is that the Armor % is totally fake against Physical attacks in the PvP Zone. I'm not sure why, maybe the % that shows is fake or we only get 65% of our total Armor. Maybe its multiplicative, instead of addictive with diminishing returns that the game doesn't show? Still... i'm much more interested in you talking about Thorns Barbarian, or how it feels when you activate instant death by just putting down a trap. These Thorns are very long, AoE isn't a thing in the game, activation on only hit isn't a thing in the game and Armor is fake, so... What's the point? The max DPS on a weapon barely reach 3000, but you equip Razorplate and you have 11.000 Thorns. This game makes no sense.
@@lordcarl3094 the pvp area armor is hardcap at 9200 so if u have more than that is kinda useless
@@chickenisdog4500 Thanks, did i miss an explanation for that somewhere in game?
@@lordcarl3094 i think in the statistic section there is a 2 modificator tooltips.
@@edwar6706 You mean Materials and Stats? That doesn't says anything about the maximum Armor for PvP being 9200.
You're straight up the khan academy of diablo my guy.
Keep up the good work.
Hah, love that.
I was thinking the same thing lmao.. are you a math teacher?
That's an explanation needed to be done!
My 2cent: same math, but less calculations when you're choosing between %DR and +HP:
* first number is your hp + HP
* second number is your hp / (1-%DR)
Pick what's higher.
True! Good point. That is another way to do it for sure. One of the reasons why I chose to show it the way that I did is that I'm hoping that people will start thinking about changes in terms of % change. This idea of % change is used everywhere in the game for optimizing your character, from dmg stats, to defensive stats. And once you have mastered the idea of comparing % changes, you can optimize everything as you progress your character throughout the game, instead of just at the end by copying someone else's build.
A huge benefit that wasnt mentioned for DR is how much more effective it becomes with healing.
That is true, but also HP is better with healing that scales of % HP :)
You also forgot about heal %, for example Rogues, flurry can heal up 15% per hit.
@@immodsr9348 you might want to clarify what you men by +HP is better with %max hp healing because its better than nothing but its not better than an equivalent amount of %DR
Its true that %DR effects %base healing and flat amount healing where +HP does not but %DR and +HP have the same effect on %max healing
If you take his 2 example characters and each receive a heal of 25% max life. The 75% DR character will receive 25 life and the 400 life character will receive 100 life but calculating for effective hp they both end up with 100 effective hp. 25 life with 75% DR = 100 effective hp. So as far as healing goes %DR has some advantages over +HP but +HP has no advantages over %DR. %DR narrows the gap between %max healing and %base healing and +HP widens it without providing any benefit over %DR.
If all your healing is %max healing then this difference is irrelevant but we all have access to healing potions which have a flat amount as well as a %max component so at the very least %DR is making your potions more effective than +HP.
Should be noted that the same is true for Barriers as well.
Crazy how video after video i learn something new and these breakdowns always help me improve my build. Top tier content🤠👍
I have always wanted a video like this for someone to explain it to me drawing out the math as they went. This is fantastic! Thank you for this.
Base on your analysis of effective health between DR & EX HP, they both could be defined as two linear functions by deferent Slope K, defining % increase as Y (y=kx+b). Then they could be equivalent in Y and go down and up.
Im sure this has been said but youre the Khan Academy of math crafting for this game. Eloquent explanations; the lucky hit video was excellent.
DR spreadsheet would be extremely helpful. My question is this:
Would the spreadsheet contain other variables such a as Close Damage Reduction, Distant Damage Reduction, Damage Reduction based on how many Dark Shroud Shadows you have how many points are invested into that, etc.
By the way, love the content! I love math so seeing how this works makes it a lot easier to make certain decisions 👍🏼 Keep it up!
okay hear me out...im 35 years old and I have NEVER liked math arithmetic. I not only understood this better than most teachers who taught me in school but I was actually excited to apply this to my min/max'ing in game! I appreciate you! Sub'd!
I think we could do with a video explaining how the EHP changes with multiple sources of DR because it is not reducing the original number, so stacking multiple sources of DR does not always produce a linear outcome. Armor does.
Totally agree DR rely on many factors , armor and hp straight forward values
I was kind of thinking the same thing. If damage reduction has diminishing returns from multiple sources it seems like you’re adding a lot to the equation then.
thanks for the breakdown! really gives us some basic understanding on how the game works :) deserves a sub
Glad it helped!
I feel like im school and todays lesson is DR vs. Hp :)
Love your approach Professor Diablo
this is the info i need to know but never knew i needed. Great vid once again.
Love the helpful analysis! EHP is a great way to think about how much we need of Life and DR to survive the biggest hit we expect. For example, if a boss is going to hit us for 50k, then we need to make sure our EHP is at least that, so that healing can take over after the hit. We also need to have enough as a buffer to smooth out damage spikes and allow healing to catch up over time.
If we're only expecting small hits which healing is able to cover, then perhaps stacking more DR would be better to reduce the overall amount of damage we take. My 2c!
Wouldn’t the diminishing returns scale the 75% too 62.5% so you would need different dr buckets too hit the hp difference for a 1 to 1 scale
Was thinking the same, but it is not really diminishing as it always gives 10% damage reduction to the 25% damage you take. That is why he used EHP instead of the total damage reduction number itself.
@@immodsr9348it is diminishing returns, the tooltip literally tells you it is diminishing. i have 52% close DR, adding 10 only brings it to 57%, not 62%
@@riothegod1831that’s because the last 10% DR you add is occurred after all other DR applied. Do you even watch his previous video which explains about DR?
@riothegod1831 the 10% is not additive,l it's 10% more of the original 52%, so in turn 5.2% more meaning 57% damage reduction would be correct. The diminishing returns, is meaning it can never make it to 100% and will always be soft capped.
@@k1ngjam3s67 oh. thats weird every other source of dr seems to be additive. at least from gear.
This is the content that deserves a sub.
Keep it up
Would love an excel sheet that we can enter our DR's in (DR from range + close and total DR) to figure things out properly.
Great videos man. I’m glad i stumbled onto you. Looking forward to more videos. Y
good explanation and it might work for a clean character but i believe its way more complicated in lategame
base life only increases with lvl ups, additional flat life does not increase with % life and dmg red has diminishing returns except for different sources like dmg red against close / dmg red against elites /dmg red against poisoned etc
i prefer life rolls over a 4th dr stat since most classes scale dmg or selfheal with it
I'm loving these breakdowns and hope they will culminate with a DR spreadsheet 😉
DR spreadsheet... sounds pretty sexy. Might have to make one.
Basic grade school math is so important, I wish I paid for attention in math class, never knew I would use it as an adult for video games
I didn’t expect DR to scale off max health…I thought it would be current health
having a background in mathematics...you got my subscription. thanks. lol.
learning so much from your breakdown videos, keep up the content!
Thanks, will do!
This reminds me of 2am college nights cramming for a stats/math test the next day
Huge khan academy vibes, good vid!
You are a beast man I think damage mitigation is one of the most important things in this game which people neglect a lot. Appreciate it!
Most helpful guides on D4 right now! Sharing with the bros
Amazing breakdown. Learned alot! You wrtie better eith your mouse than I do with a pen lol
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. I actually am using a wacom tablet. =)
A breakdown comparing how a skill’s damage scales with level compared to the value of a passive skill would be helpful for crafting builds. I never know when to focus on skill level versus when to go for more points in passives. Looking forward to your Armor deep dive video!
Depends on your specific build but rule of thumb is.
5 ranks in core skill.
1 rank in other active skills.
They usually just apply status for your core to capitalize on.
For example, I see a lot of Druids put ranks in Trample, but with that build Trample merely casts your Core Landslide, which does the damage. Extra ranks don't lower CD, increase Unstoppable time, or add to the Fortify/Spirit gen. Waste.
4, 8, 12% damage to Nature Magic skills, 5, 10, 15% more Fortify etc are worth a lot more than putting ranks in Poison Creeper either. You only want Creeper for the 20% crit chance, apply the "Poison" tag to enemies, apply the "Immobilize" (which is also "Crowd Control) so your "+% dmg vs psn", "dmg vs cc" stats are getting used. No Druid build is stacking Poison dots like a Vanilla Warlock in 40 man Onyxia 😅
My friend had 5 ranks in his basic skill, and in Blood Mist saying it does more damage that way.. "Brother you can do more damage with the Bone passives. Blood Mist is just a panic button, not an attack..."
Well done and good explanaition. Thank you!
You the best brother thanks for all the tips, can't wait for the armor discussion!
Man you deserve 500k + subscribers
I wouldn't know what to do w/ such numbers.
One thing to consider is that % DR is capped so if you're already getting a lot of DR you may find that you're hitting the cap regularly so adding more is largely wasted.
It would be great if there was some in-game stats to display EHP, maybe leveraging your average DR in combat (this will often go up & down as a lot of DR sources are conditional; close, when crowd controlled, for x seconds after using a skill, etc.)
Overall a fantastic video though, great job!
DR% has no cap.
Thank you for explaing this, past level 90 on my rogue I did indeed feel like the DR was better then the HP but could not confirm 100%. 🍻
Nice video, hope to learn more from you in the future ❤
It seems to be much easier to find (relatively) significant HP increases than it is to find significant DR% increases. Something to take into account.
At lower levels you will likely find neither a 1k HP boost OR a 10% DR increase. SO, in almost ALL scenarios, it is almost always better to take the DR% increase IMO. Of course the formulas above are great to help one consider what to take if such a choice is available at any given level.
I didn't learn anything new, but it was a good refresher nonetheless. At the least it quelled my inner critic that my formulae were indeed correct and that, I can assure you, is value I cannot buy with money.
I came for the Rapid fire shenanigans, stayed for the math tutorials. Have a sub, sir.
It was my plan all along.... Glad you still remember your maths!
@@Xarrio I didn't remark before, but your concept of hits to kill on the DR calculations was revolutionary for me. That was in fact, something new.
Your videos are so helpful. The game doesn't explain anything to players.
EHP, a concept well understood from Path of exile :D
My man’s re-rolling starts in VR 😮
Your Channel is really nice! Helps to understand the mechanics a lot
That was a REALLY roundabout way to explain a simple concept. 7000/6000 = ~ 16% Damage reduction. 10% DR =~ 10% damage reduction. 11000/10000 = ~ 10% damage reduction and decreases as your life gets higher and higher. It’s pretty simple math
This is why I think the "diminishing return" info is confusing people on DR. Because actually its one of the stats with no diminishing return.
If you already have good gear with a lot of DR stacked it becomes less effective the more you add, so HP is almost always better. You mentioned that the DR values never change, but they do, if you stack them they lose effectiveness.
Let's say you have 50% DR spread across gear, skills and paragon nodes, if you add another 10% from a new gear piece it's not going to be 60%, it will be something around 55% or so.
This is why stacking HP and Armor is better than stacking DR.
Check out my vid on diminishing returns and DR, it might clear up some misconceptions: ruclips.net/video/LLHyYlABXt0/видео.html
Here's some confusion to add to the equation. Barbs have a talent that adds health multiplicitively. Therefore, adding 1000 health doesn't exactly come out to +1000 health to your new total.... I'm sure I can figure it out by multiplying it first though. And then how do the gems and paragon +health% go into this as well?
Yep. I'm planning a video right now to talk about life %. Stay tuned! It is a fun one.
great video. also to find delta EHP for HP on gear you can also (gear HP / current hp) a little easier
Thank you! You have a new subscriber! I love video game science!
Bro your content is next level. Keep it coming ❤
I'm a 85 rogue with about 6000hp. I had to pick between 900 +HP or 10% DR. After watching this vid, I'm going with the HP for now until I hit higher levels.
Glad the vid was useful so immediately!
Hey Xarrio! Mad respect for your work mate, ive watched every single one of your videos and they are both coherent and informative!
Could you share a general overview of what we should aim for ( as rogues ) in the end end endgame? Hp, DR, Crit chance+dmg etc?
Thank you for your work once more, you're awesome!!
Do the math, bozo.
Very informative. Thanks a ton
Good vid. I think a really good follow up would be a comparison of DR and effective health VS dot type damage for pesky affixes in NM and PvP
I definitely learned something today too bad I got banned last night though 😅
This is fundamentally assuming that there is no diminishing returns on Damage reduction. I haven't tested it yet, but often times Devs will put a maximum DR value into the calculation to limit DR stacking so as you approach that value your returns on investment drop. Though HP gives less % EH per point, it is is not subject to diminishing returns in the same way so it may well be more effective with higher Reduction values. Its somewhat tangential to this discussion, but Barrier and the Overpower mechanic (if they ever fix it) both play into HP which may also weight the equation towards HP.
From my testing on the tooltip (and searching online), I haven't found any evidence of diminishing returns from damage reduction.
How does this affect, for example the Sorc passive Protection that grants a barrier based on maximum health when a CD is used?
There's got to be a formula to calculate exactly how high a life roll on a piece of gear has to reach to start outclassing a DR roll for more Effective HP, given your current HP as a static data point. So if you're at the Occultist rerolling a piece of gear you know exactly how high you want that life roll to get before you stop re-rolling over it for a higher value.
Life rolls scale with ilvl and upgrades. rolling life on a 725 is really bad but on an 800 its very worth it
Having more health also means you need to do more healing in order to survive, saw this quite a few times playing with people that went the hp route when you vs something tough and they keep running out of potions.
I assume for any build that takes advantage of Fortify and/or Overpower, health would always be the way to go?
Life is damage for those builds so think of it as a hybrid damage and defensive stat.
I like to use DR all the time even if the hp seems slightly better. because the healing you take from any source is like 4 times more effective. potions have fix number they heal instantny etc. so for me there is no question even to think about more hp if I can take any reasonable DR, resist or block chance etc.
what a share, ur video is amazing, thanks for that!! love it
Wouldn’t the 2nd hit with 75% DR be 75% of 75 health now,, which would be 56 health after? Or does it always calculate based off the max health number, and not the actual current health number?
Hey, good question. The DR is reducing the HIT not your health pool. The hit from the wraith is always 100 dmg in the example, so the 75% DR will always reduce the hit by 75.
@@Xarrio that makes sense. thanks for the reply, and keep up the awesome videos, they’re really helpful!
Great Video!
Im not sure if my thoughts are correct but I think there is another point about damage reduction to think about:
For example, lets say you have already 80%dr. Now you have to decie between +10% damage reduction or X more life.
the 10% damage reduction would give you from you current state + 100% more tankyness and its verry unlikly to get a life roll that gives you +100% of your current health.
1000 incomming damage 80%dr => 200 incomming damage.
1000 incomming damage 90%dr => 100 incomming damage.
from 200 to 100 incomming damage the value got halfed, so it gives you 100% more tankyness. I know the values of 80% dr cannot be achievied, but it makes my point more clearly.
Or am I wrong?
The 10% Dr extra won't add like that generally. The 10% DR would remove 10% of the remaining dmg.
80% DR -> 20% Dmg remaining
10% more DR -> removes 10% of the 20% -> removes 2% dmg -> 18% dmg remaining
@@Xarrio okay ty sir
Great content.
wasupp, in my expiriance, adding DR in late game its better overall. Anyway you will and up having 10k+ hp . For example , 10k hp + your Armor + DR its better then adding just flat HP :D .
These are legit the most down to earth useful videos. Better than NickTew and Kripparian for real
Wow, I appreciate the compliment!
The video I needed! Thanks
Good enough explanation but where things get really tricky is when you have like 6 different sources of DR and of course these are not additive to each other it's a whole mess of calculations, my rule of thumb is anything less than 10% DR is not worth it (if you have other better DR sources) if you can get max hp or some nice offensive stats.
The big thing with DR is getting the most from the same source, for example 2 times 25%DR is better than 5 times 10%DR and while the effective DR difference is not that big between the two having 5 different sources ties up a lot of gear affixes or legendary gear slots, in a lot of cases you want to use that "space" for something more critical to your build. Basically you want to balance the amount of sources for every stat, defensive or otherwise because no matter the stat every new source means diminishing returns.
With a high health pool adding more flat health is less effective but adding percentage health is more effective. Also, because of diminishing returns there is a point based on how much % damage reduction you have on your gear (not necessarily from armor) where adding more flat health even with a high health pool is better simply because you are adding such a small percentage value. Just wish I could tell where that point is. Pretty sad that trying to make my Sorc not get one shot takes a damn math degree.
Just to make things more fun... % life from gems and paragon only is applied to your base health (health without +flat life from gear). This is why when you put on a ring w/ +life on it, it goes up that exact amount. It isn't effected by +% life stuff from gems/paragon.
Can you help explain whether to pick 5% total armor or 10% damage reduction?
Good explanation but I hate that I have to sit and do math for the 1000 items I drop every run just to figure out a little increase in power. Bliz needs ro make it obvious as to what is an upgrade and what isn't... it would take forever to do this with all items
Can you do a video talking a little bit about the defensive abs utility skills of the rogue? There seems to be some interesting ones like the one that grants dodge or the one that provides DR from DOT that I never see used in any builds?
I use the dodge passive in my rogue builds. It’s busted even though it’s RNG based. I take it as “60% of the time it works every time”😂
Percentage is always better than flat stats, especially higher you go up, flat stats have diminishing returns
Shout + Click Hammer Button = No More Enemies. Easy Maths.
Damage reduction though will make your healing and barriers more effective as well so I would prioritize damage reduction.
I have a question about imbuements, on some it has lucky hit chance. Does this transfer to every rapidfire shot and does it overwrite the lucky hit chance on rapid fire?
Adding DR, your life moves up and down in a more predictable way than in adding extra life. This is important in hardcore, where you want consistency in your "hp movement".
They're both EXACTLY the same. Neither one causes your life to move up or down more or less predictably...
Great presentation bro 🔥
ty!
Are you a teacher/ professor in your day job? You are very good at breaking down and explaining concepts
Tldr: only roll hp on your rings and helm for survivability. Full dr and armor on chest and pants.
I'm having a similar issues deciding between raw HP and extra dodge chance. I'm just keeping one in my stash until I learn which is more worth having.
Good question... dodge effectively works the same as DR in terms of the average damage reduced. For example, if you had 50% dodge, then you would take 1 out of every 2 hits on average. Versus if you had 50% DR, then you would take half the dmg every time. Well half the dmg for 2 hits (for the DR case) is the same as the whole dmg for 1 hit and 1 dodge (for dodging). Generally tho people don't take dodge over DR because it is inconsistent. You either take 0 dmg or all of the dmg. And if all of the dmg is more than your health pool, you are dead. Versus taking half of the dmg each hit, you then have time to heal it up before the next hit hopefully.
it’s impossible to calc effective health in diablo 4 the way they spread different types of DR, resistance, and armor across stats unless you’re looking at strictly the stat “damage reduction,” which is only one of the several mitigation stats
the way DR really works can’t be calculated as it depends on a dynamic system - what type is it, where is it when ability used, is it environmental or from a mob, do you have buffs, etc. it’s just way more complicated than it seems and there’s no calculation that’s gonna help
This was my only question as well, as DR in the game is so often conditional, it seems nearly impossible to calculate any kind of static amount for comparison.
Guy knows his math, can't pronounce occult, this proves the world makes you spec into 1 skill tree. I did not choose the math tree, thank you for the great explanations
Do you think you can make a spreadsheet to auto-calculate these on Excel? Great job BTW!
Ya, there is a spreadsheet on this vid: ruclips.net/video/KWMihoBjIgo/видео.html
@@Xarrio Ohh thanks. I got distracted how your solving these maths in your head LOL. I'm your new fan!
U re the best! I love u re videos. 👏👏👏
While I do appreciate your explanation, I also want to point out some other aspects that might prove adding health (after 12k+ hp) is still more effective than DR.
This is because we have paragon with potion healing and pant affix 20% barrier when using potion. Therefore, the more health you have, the more healing + barrier you will get. I have 20k health. So, when I’m injured, I basically heal 50% + 4k barrier.
Mathematically it works out the same actually (for the most part) because the DR applies to your barrier as well. So while you may have less barrier, the barrier has more DR. And same thing w/ paragon potion healing b/c it is % based. While it will heal less without as much health, that less health is stronger per point b/c of the DR. In fact, having less health and more DR is actually better mathematically if you have a lot of flat health increase. For example, when you heal with a potion, you get about 1200 flat health back at level 100+35% of your health. So that flat health becomes more valuable with more DR.
Thanks for the video! How to take ie. dodge chance into account for the overall EHP?
it doesnt stack like that in d4 though. 2 items that both have 10%dr wouldnt be 20% dr it would be 10% then 10% or remaining. so does that make HP better bec of diminishing returns?
Too much math for my meager brain, so which one is better then? more dr or hp?
If I have 20% damage reduction from close, as well as 20% damage reduction from distance, is that the same as having 20% damage reduction, or is some other mechanic where an enemy can not be either close or distant, such as if they are exploding or affecting me after their death?
Pretty much. Except for environmental effects in nightmare dungeons such as the shade/lightning I don't think fit into either close or far.
Great info but I think cumulatively if you can get dr from multiple sources max health is a rare stat there’s passives in every tree in every class that gives some form of damage reduction
But nothing gives max health to me max health is a multiplicative bucket of damage reduction
This is very good, my issue with this is though you arent calculating the scaling of monster levels and how that comes into effect and if the % variables change or dont change when you fight monsters 30 levels above you.
None of this in the video is affected by mob level that I'm aware of. The only thing that does change is the starting dmg of each hit that you are taking. Your effective hp doesn't change from life/DR on gear due to mob scaling. Now... that being said... your armor DR% does change from mob lvl... and that we will be going over in the armor video. Stay tuned!
@@Xarrio nice!
What I’m curious about is what about when ur a rogue and don’t have a lot of health though.
Did you take into account the diminishing returns of DR stats? For example if you already have 10% DR, that new 10% will have diminishing returns
Check out part 1 of the series where I talk about diminishing returns.
Does the effectiveness of adding life also increase based on your current dr? I would think that if your character already has some dr that should factor into the choice. You discussed base hp but not the effect of your character's current dr when adding extra health. I would be interested to know.
At the end you are comparing the incrase in effective health vs increase in health. Which only works if the character has no DR prior to adding the new item. If the character already has damage reduction then you need to compute how much effective health the new amount of health is equal to
% wise, it works out the same even if you account for your current DR. The DR is just going to multiply the effective health pre-increase in health and the effective health post-increase in health by the same number. And then when you divide the two numbers to find the % change, that multiplier will cancel itself out.
@@Xarrio Indeed !
I am more curious about healing recieved. How much is enough if you have enough health and damage reduction to survive multiple hits but quickly heal your health back up to full so you can take more hits.
maximum roll for +max hp is 1310
maximum roll for + dr is 10.7%
so i opted for 13k hp (only have +max hp on rings and helmet) and have +dr or +armor wherever else it can roll
Is there an excel sheet available to compare gear? Probably not, but worth asking
Check my latest vid for an EHP calculator that you can use to compare EHP. Dmg one is coming soon.