Great questions these past few days you guys. Feel free to keep them coming! Also, EHP spreadsheet in the description and a little demo at the end of the vid! Enjoy! Also, for the EHP calculator, there isn't a great way to just simply put in armor and spit out a value for DR % that I know of b/c the DR % depends on your level and the enemies level. So I'd recommend just either ignoring that part if you are fighting enemies much higher level than you, or just use it to compare your EHP with diff DR %'s, or if you are at/near the armor cap, just put in another stack of 85% DR.
I wanted to give my perspective, as a pvper, on the case for Dodge since it wasn't explored in too much depth here since that's why I clicked on the video for a more mathematical perspective. But this is my take, at least situationally speaking, because the mechanics and caps and bugs in pvp are much different to how pve/gearing works. Such as the armor/crit cap, the Hota bug, and Barriers. So this is why I take Dodge on pants and boots, as a melee Druid. (I will note I don't take/need to take Max HP which only has overlap on the leg slot with a potential Dodge roll, because Bulwark barrier build only scales with Base HP, just for transparency) 1) As we know most DR is conditional and therefore not effective at all times. IE. DR Close is going to be worth much less against ranged builds in pvp, or DR Distant is going to be worth less against melee builds. Therefore the goal is to have defensives that get value by having the most “uptime” such as While Fortified which you can control yourself or automatically applied like Poison effects (though I will cover this one specifically later on). Or Dodge (not Dodge Close/Distant) which is not conditional, that's a big plus over most other DR sources, it is always providing value just like a straight DR roll. 2) Since you only need 9.2k armor or some ppl say 9.5k in pvp to cap, you can reach this while still having room on your pants/boots for Dodge (at least as a Wolf Druid). 3) Because of the Hota aspect bug that some ppl say either ignores armor, ignores defenses, or basically just does unintended, or at the very least imbalanced amounts of dmg, and ends up 1-3 shotting you, having some amount of Dodge (not talking about Rogs that can get tons) ~20% and a not insignificant chance to take no dmg, because taking any hit (regardless of amount of DR stacked) will still get you one shot, could be the difference between having a few more seconds to kill or kite. Furthermore, UNLESS you are playing a Low HP Bulwark build that has DR Fort/Injured up 100% of the time on a Barrier, I feel like DR Injured (which is the highest stackable DR) does almost nothing against Hota bug since you would have to be injured (
That makes a lot of sense for pvp. Great points. I admit I haven't delved much into the pvp side of the game yet so this is a great perspective. Thanks!
You are an absolute legend! Great way to teach real methods of understanding these dynamic mechanics in d4. 👏👏👏 I felt like i was back in school but i actually learned something 😂😂
you can get around 20/25 dodge chance with goof roll if im not wrong, its sound kool but i'm not sure its viable? maybe rogue got something for it but other class dont
I got 15%, +12% with passive proc, +12% dodge vs close targets, +8% ring aspect dodge vs DOTed enemies. Also was wondering is 1 big source of lets say dodge or lucky hit better then 2-5 smaller. Or they works the same way in this case with the same % to dodge overall?
I really like the fact, that you've created a whole video answering people's questions (especially in a visual learning way). As some people learn better visually 😊 Keep up the great content!
As a stats major, this is excellent. Yes for sure there are edge cases and many unique affixes from different sources, which require different calculations. It would take a wiki to go through the math from every items and skills from every classes or every differences between scenarios, levels and monsters. In general, this video is accurate. Thumbs up 👍🏻❤
I dont think you can completely forego damage reduction for dodge chance but it does have its perks. It is kinda nice that every attack you dodge could be one less application of vulnerable or cc on your character the same is not true for damage mitigation. In the tooltip for dodge chance it states that it has some kind of diminishing returns id love to see the data on that to better understand the value of the stat. Another thing id like to know is can you dodge while under a hard cc like stun, there are certainly some games where that is the case so it wouldnt hurt to check.
Think of it this way: In theory, dodge is expected damage (as per expectation in statistics), 20%*100dmg+80%*0dmg = 20dmg. This LOOKS as though it is damage reduction IF you can tank the hit. If you cannot tank the damage, as per T100 NM dungeons, if you have 10000 Effective hp and every small monster hits you for 10000, who cares about dodge chance? Even if you have 80% dodge you are going to get 1 hit by a mob, 4 times and game is over. But if you have 80% DR, 10000damage becomes reduced by 80%, and you can drink potions to recover or use skills to heal back or fight sections by sections, completion is definite. However, dodge chance has its "luck" when it comes to say uber lilith fight when you are going to get 1 hit or when you do not get 1 hit. Most top tier builds (T100 or Lilith, may be different for other use case such as PvP) will not put dodge chance as a priority above DR, or not even a single build that I have seen.
@@elysiandream7 oh i see i made a mistake in my original comment, i meant to say "i dont think you should completely forego damage reduction for dodge chance" not the other way around. I've edited it now. Basically if you have a healthy amount of damage reduction to keep you well out of one shot territory for the content you are doing then dodge chance is fine. I understand that in t100 you might never have enough damage reduction to be in a place to consider dodge chance in that case dont take dodge chance.
Just to add to the conversation about the benefits of dodge chance, as a fellow Rogue main, at least. The obvious major downside to DC is it does no good even if you could dodge 4 out of 5 hits, if the 5th hit one shots you. This is why they removed it from dex classes in D3 and replaced it with armor. What's REALLY elegant about its implementation in D4, at least to me, is they tied all these other proc effects to it. So if you can, say, build enough survivability to be able to not be one shot, and have some wiggle room, or even just for speed farming, stacking DC along with these proc effects allows for these pretty cool dodge builds. Or at least in theory. I've yet to fully lean into a dodge build, but my napkin math suggests there's some viability there.
have you an idea how many dodge chance you can get as rogue ? (with say perfect substat gear aspect and paragon) i get the substat part aprox. but dont play as rogue atm.
What exactly constitutes as a "source" tho? If Ihave 10% DR vs Elites from a passive and 10% DR vs Elites from a Paragon node are these added to each other or are they different instances of DR?
I know, different topic, but maybe you know... What I´m not sure about is: Does "+% shadow damage" actually work with "shadow DoT"... because these ARE two different stats and knowing Blizzard it could very well be that I´m currently wasting statspoints on shadow damage while actually needing ONLY shadow DoT.... Why I´m not sure is, because every tick of, lest´s say "blight corpse explosions" deals shadow damage, right? So does "+ shadow damage" apply to everything shadow, while "shadow DoT" only apllies to DoT specifcially? or are both in fact entirely seperated regarding dmg-bonus? edit: also why I´m asking is, comparing it to Mage: Blizzard does basically deal "Cold dmg over time", similar to what Blight does. It IS affected by "+% cold damage" from what I could see on my Sorc, while Sorc doesn´t have "cold DoT" stats specifically... So I would assume it would be no different, but can I be sure? Questions over questions with this game´s systems :)
Good point. So many things in this game aren't real clear until someone actually goes out and tests them. Shadow DOT I would assume only applies to DOT dmg and not all shadow dmg. Shadow % tho I would think applies to both instant shadow dmg and dot shadow dmg, but maybe it doesn't apply to shadow dot dmg? Rogues don't have shadow dot dmg, so I don't know. =(
5:50 Challenging Shout's %DR is a single instance of %DR. Adding 2% DR to that single instance is more effective than adding a 2% DR multiplier, right?
A question about "Skills and damage reduction": even though the percent that you're mitigating is going up and each rank increases that, isn't the actual amount of raw damage that you are preventing a fixed increment? Using the stats in the video @6:28 - 60% damage taken from a 100 hit is 60 damage. 58% damage taken from a 100 hit is 58 damage. 56% damage taken from a 100 hit is 56 damage. So even though it looks like each 2% increase is more valuable than the last one from a percentage standpoint, the raw value of mitigation from each 2% is exactly the same (a linear difference in damage taken). Correct me if I'm wrong, because I suck at math.
You are right that the raw amount is getting less, but percentage wise, you are reducing more of the remaining dmg each time, which results in it actually being more powerful. for example, consider the following extreme case: Lets say you have 100 health. Lets say you take 20 dmg per hit. It takes 5 hits to kill you. Now, lets say you reduce that dmg by 5. Now you take 15 dmg. Now it takes 7 hits to kill you. This is 2 more hits than before. Now, lets say you reduce that dmg by 5 again. Now you take 10 dmg. Now it takes 10 hits to kill you. This is 3 more hits than before. now, lets say you reduce that dmg by 5 again. Now you take 5 dmg. Now it takes 20 hits to kill you. This is 10 more hits than before. Do you see how reducing the dmg by a fixed amount makes the amounts of hits to kill you increase more and more each time? This is why reducing the dmg by a fixed amount gets more powerful.
@@Xarrio right, but that's a 25% mitigation increase vs the 2% increase from the original, so of course it looks strong in that example. A single 25% reduction like above would be equivalent to almost 13 extra ranks in the shout and far more than you're going to actually get from any single stat on gear. I think a more appropriate example would be: the base shout gives you 60% reduction from, for example, a 5k hit. That becomes a 2,000hp hit. With one extra rank, going to 62% reduction, you go to a 1900hp hit. Against that size of hit, each rank of the shout is going to give you another 100hp reduction (our fixed value). That 100hp is not going to make a meaningful difference in your damage taken compared to virtually any other defense stat (or just flat hp) for that equipment slot. For a 5k hit when you have 10k life, with the 60% base shout damage reduction, you can take 5 hits (10,000hp/5 hits=2,000 damage). To be able to take one more single full extra hit, the hit total needs to reach 1,666 hit size (10,000hp/6 hits=1,666 damage). Since we can't hit that number, we have to round to 1,600, which would be 4 extra ranks in the shout. So for this hit size, the fixed value is a pretty poor return on investment (100hp damage reduction per rank, basically 1% of your max life). Using a lower value damage, like a 2,000hp hit, our 60% shout makes us take 800 damage so we can take 12.5 hits (10,000hp/800 damage=12.5). Going up just one shout rank takes the damage to 760, which allows us to take 13 hits (10,000hp/760 damage=13). With potions, regen, lifesteal, etc. these low hits aren't what we are worried about anyway. With things like armor and other damage reductions I know it's way better, but the higher the hit is relative to your total HP the worse these fixed value reductions seem to become (which seems counter-intuitive, since % reduction is "better" the higher the incoming damage is). Apologies for the long post, poor formatting, and probably questionable math!
Getting enough armor to hit the 85% DR cap from armor is darn near impossible. However getting 75% of that and using Disobedience to make up the rest is quite doable. As Xarrio explained in a previous vid, that last 25% can double your EHP vs. phys dam (which is probably most of the damage you take?). Getting an extra 20% DR on top of what you already have is weaker by comparison -- except that DR also protects you from ele dam.
On barb, for pushing nm, going from base ~9k armor to 13k-14k with disobediance gives u i think the most dr in the game. Half of that also applies to elem dr. But u should use both.
If you want the challenge you should work out PVP statistics per class, a lot of class theory crafting going on for pvp. Your input on it would be great
Fantastic video. I think you misunderstood the point about life and barrier and fortified though So the point they were making is if you add 1k life you also add 1k to your max barrier amount so if you regularly can fill that barrier adding 1k life is not 1k EHP it is 2k ehp so more valuable than it would appear. Also increasing your flat life typically means each source of barrier goes up. So like on Sorc I get barrier as a % of life on killing a frozen enemy or using a cooldown. So having more life means I not only get more barrier when it is full but that I get more every time I generate barrier. Thus again it increases my ehp (although harder to tell without knowing how often I will be recovering that barrier while fighting) Similarly on fortify bonus adding 1k life gives you more fortified amount though this I am less sure the advantage of as the purpose of scaling fortify gains on %life is to make it not a negative to scale life when you have hps. If fortify gains were flat getting more life could hurt your ability to maintain fortify. Making so many gains % based helps negate that
Here is the way I am thinking about it: Lets say you have 10000 life and 10000 barrier. You effectively have 20000 hp. If you increase your life by 1000, that will also increase your barrier by 1000. For a total of 2000 hp. Now your total hp is 20000+2000 = 22000. This is a change of 2000/20000, which is still a 10% change. It doesn't matter if you have barrier or not, the change in ehp is still 10%. Similarly the 10% DR is still a change in 11% EHP making it better than the change in life+barrier because the 10% DR makes the 10000 life and 10000 barrier 11% stronger.
Maybe this would have been a clearer way to explain it in the video ^. I was trying to go fast though and didn't want to spend 5 min doing an example drawing it out.
All barrier of object and class d'oesnt work the same , for exemple "temerity" (unique pants) dont scale with max HP and are not affected by barrier generation so 1k more hp = 0 barrier augmentation same for earthen bulwark there seem so have a strange cap depend on what you upgrade (the spell iself ,gem,aspect etc). it can still be good option as when you geet barrier you can't be CC right ?
Most barrier sources only scale with base HP. This is why sorc's defense gimmick sucks. If you have 20k your barriers will still only be the maximum of 7595(max hp at 100).
Do I understand correctly, that each specific DR type is additive to other sources of itself first, then all the different final DR type values are multiplicative with eachother, as the character sheet stats lead you to believe?
I think all dr is multiplicative with each other, except for specific skills like barb challeging shout where each rank "adds" 2% dr. And having one large dr value is better than having multiple smaller drs of the same total, i.e: one 50% dr gives more ehp than 5x10% drs.
@@W.M.1 I guess that would make sense, since I looked around and max possible affixes on fully-upgraded gear and it seems you can get a 41-point-something percent DR while injured on 3 pieces, which obviously couldn't possibly be additive with eachother.
What would make sense to me is that DR% from DR% all and DR% armor and DR% fortified would work vs environmental. I don't think DR close/distant would work b/c those aren't enemies. I haven't tested this however.
Just to be absolutely sure. If I have 2 sources of 10% dr close. Its not dr close bucket of 20% dr, but 2 separate 10% dr calculations. So 0.9x0.9 right? Were you able to analyze how paragons work in that case? You have like 3 nodes of 2% and one of 8%. Is really every node separate or it counts paragon board like 1 source? Same as 1 item for example. In tooltip on char for example with sorc when I already have 50% dr burning and add 2% node it shows only 1% added. So maybe its already taking into account the overall calculation of that bucket in tooltip for the type. Would make sense because delta from 50 to 52 on paper is realy only 0,4% increasw
Yes, every node, every affix, etc. acts multiplicatively individually. The stat sheet just shows you the multiplicative calculation for each DR stat individually, which is the equivalent DR if you were to multiply each one individually.
@@Xarrio yeah. Thats how it looks to me as well. So easiest and correct is to take tooltip drs and multiply that. Because in background its already calculated in tooltip. To make it easier. Btw great videos. For us math min maxers ;)
Ive been wondering about a dodge build with rogue, since there are a few aspects and passives that grant quite a bit of % dodge chance, and there are some rolls (on boots maybe) that grant increased damage after you dodge. If your dodge chance is high enough and it procs all the time, it might be a fairly consistent damage increase
You still need enough DR that you don't die in 1 hit and a good enough dodge chance that you can heal the lost health before a likely hit again. I haven't explored for example if standing in a pool of poison can be dodged, but if it can't, you'll also find that any other unavoidable or DoT effects will absolutely dissolve you. Although one thing to note about dodge technically you can high roll(get really lucky) and go very long strings without any damage being dealt. As in technically speaking someone with 90% DR will still die in 10 hits with 100 damage base, but even a 1% chance to dodge COULD theoretically survive dozens or more. It's just to do so would often be more likely than getting multiple Uber uniques from the same elite at the same time exactly 100 hours from you reading this message. DR is consistent and ALWAYS effective, dodge chance has a CHANCE to be better or worse and it will be entirely random. Typically consistency wins. That only occurs when you become more likely to succeed long strings of dodges than fail. That however I don't believe is possible in this game yet. I'd want something like 80-85% dodge chance before I'd be happy taking it over raw damage reduction.
In this case there's an aspect they buffed recently that lets you dodge 7x every 45 seconds, ive been intrigued Bout how effectively it procs and the mechanics behind it also if youre able to kindve drag that 7 to fill in that 45 sec window or if its just instant 7 b2b. N then you got the agile passive for rogues that grant you up to 12% increased dodge chance for 4 sec everytime you use a cooldown, so in theory you could really dodge a lot 😅
Very interesting. If I wanna decide which between sapphire or ruby is better for my character, there's a way to translate the +4% life of each ruby in your spreadsheet to compare it with the 3% DR of sapphires?
Easiest way is to unsocket your gear, see what your hp is before and after putting rubies in. Then put your hp before into the calculator and the added health from the rubies. Then calculate your total DR from sapphires using the DR calculator and put that into the right side as a total DR to compare. A little complicated... I know. But I'm planning on doing a gem guide soon.
On TB poison build, do we deal more dps if get crit damage everywhere we can or just go full bonus that increase the poison DoT ? Assuming the ennemy is vulnerable
Would it be possible to show the amount of Damage Reduction VS Armor is needed to get 85% overall VS Tier100 NM mob? For example, if you have 6800 armor, how much actual +% DR from stats you would need to achieve 85% DR overall since its all manipulative? Seems pretty odd that I can have 8500 armor, then have 50% DR while Fortified, 55% DR from Close, 10% all DR, and additional 10% DR for class bonus (barb), and still getting 1 shotted. In some cases still getting 1 shotted even with all that plus Rank 12 Challenging Shout up (62% Damage Reduction)
Good question. The 85% DR cap is just from armor, you can get over 85% DR total by adding on more DR sources. For example if you have 85% DR from armor, you can add another 10% DR piece to get you to 86.5% DR. If you check out my previous vid on armor, you'll see that 8500 armor is actually not much if you are pushing high NM dungeons and you'll want a lot more to not get 1 shot at times.
In the open world, so at equal level, my lv 99 druid hits the 85% DR from armor cap at about 9k armor according to the character sheet tooltip. In a previous vid it was explained that the effectiveness of armor falls off at a rate of about 1% per additional tier/lvl. So it makes sense that armor reaches the 85% DR cap at about 14k armor in a T100 NMD. So I'm thinking that if I can manage about 10k armor and run Disobedience, I should be hitting the armor cap when I need to.
Question: how is the order of DR worked out? Example I have 10, 20, 30 does it calculate it with highest first 30, 20, 10 or low high or when was acquired etc ?
All sources of DR are weighted equally, so there are no DR buckets despite what the character sheet might lead you to believe. All that matters is what types of DR will be most applicable based on your play style.
Do you think you could take a crack at stacking damage dealt. Maybe help explain why sometimes my crits are 300k dmg (light yellow) and base attacks are 1 million (white)
When i kept moving up in damage using xarrios rf build i remember my average starting was about the same as yours @3-500k n then critting 1mil about 25% of the time maybe less, n then 5-800k n then critting 1.5-2.2 maybe a 3rd. And then you'll get to a pt now where you can actually start averaging 1mil almost every other hit if that!
Just to make sure I understand: Am I correct in assuming that your DR calc doesn't distinguish between types of DR (close, when poisoned, etc.) when computing EHP? Thx in advance 👋👍
There is no need to distinguish. You yourself can assume which conditional DRs are likely to have 100% uptime and which are not. You can even assign a weight to them to get a better idea on how they'd affect an "average" situation. For example, if you have 3 sources of dr when poisoned and all are 10%, and you have 80% uptime of poison, you can simply multiply those 10% modifiers by 0.8 before including them in the final calculation. My recommendation though is to just look at your build strictly and look at what really has 100% uptime and what does not. Anything that's not close to 100% uptime should probably not be included.
@@robinwesterbeeke1498 Ehh, that's kinda my point though ... That conditional/contingent values probably shouldn't be lumped together with permanent uptime ones 🤨 So yes, and as per your own implicit admission, it actually *does* matter. If, however, the goal is to have a vague/rough estimate, then this is fine 😐 Either way, pretty sure Xar was just after a rough calc, so NBD ... I was/am merely looking to gain insight on what his formula may have been.
Great question/point. Yes, no matter what you do you will be getting a rough estimate unless you calculate every single single condition and/or every single possible combination of conditions one at a time. For example you may calculate "what is my % DR when I am close and the enemy is poisoned?" Well then you put in your all DR, DR close and DR poison and get that number. Well, what if I am distant and I'm CC'd? Well then you put in your all dr, your dr while CC'd and distant DR. etc. etc. Gets kinda crazy. The best way is probably just to put in the combo that occurs most frequently if you want to keep it simple, but if you really want to get into it, you do the above. You could try doing what robin said with estimating uptime and multiplying by the % DR, but because EHP doesn't scale linearly with DR, it actually isn't a great way either. This actually gives me an idea of how we could estimate it using weighted averages that would be more accurate... Stay tuned!
@@piotrkosztirko438 what I was more hinting at is that the DR that matters is what’s always there. For example I get 30% DR after Teleporting. It’s not reliable so I don’t count it. I also don’t pick up DR from burning anymore on gear. Instead I run close and distant. I need to hit stuff first before they burn. Could die before that happens. One way to calculate these in is to assign weights to them if you really wanted. But I would focus on getting your “always on” DR as high as possible.
I haven't delved much into pvp in this game yet as I find it to be... lacking personally. Hopefully they'll add more pvp events into the game at some point to make it more engaging/worthwhile/objective based?
Unfortunately I don't have a good way to equate armor = a certain % DR because it changes depending on a persons level and armor scales weird, and I don't have a good model for that. =( But if you are at max DR from armor, you can just put a stack of 85% DR in the calc and be fine.
You can never be too sure with Blizzard, but I would assume that all sources of damage within melee range are considered "close"... Although I would love to know for sure, because that would mean that (if it applies at all) "%-damage+ vs. closed enemies" would work for skeletons even if I keep myself at distance...
Once again, thank you for all of the awesome content. This build just dropped a few hours ago and I would love your opinion on it versus your build, or in the alternative, as possible modifications to your build: ruclips.net/video/n69CjyucsZM/видео.html
It's an interesting idea. I wouldn't use those defensives that he has tho (temerity and what not). Otherwise the caltrops freeze could work. I'm also skeptical of builds that are being shown off in anything less than a T80. Not be to be elitist, just that almost any build works in T60s if you have decent gear.
@@Xarrio Can you please explain the difference between the 2 builds you have posted now. In addition, the +t85 one says w/o diminish but I do not see a build with diminish anywhere. Thanks.
@@michaelkofsky6599 Ya, the two builds just has 1 that is more defense oriented (swapped the 4th board) while the other is more dmg oriented for lower dungs. the w/o diminish tag is just something that I used b/c I made another build that I didn't put out that does use diminish. I have too many boards w/ variations to keep track of at this point lol.
@@Xarrio Thank you for clarifying. One last question please. Does the math bear out that having Disobedience on the amulet is better defensively than having Umbrous?
@@michaelkofsky6599 It just depends if you need umbrous on your amulet to keep your shrouds up or not. If you can keep the shrouds up without it on amulet, then dis is better.
Great questions these past few days you guys. Feel free to keep them coming! Also, EHP spreadsheet in the description and a little demo at the end of the vid! Enjoy! Also, for the EHP calculator, there isn't a great way to just simply put in armor and spit out a value for DR % that I know of b/c the DR % depends on your level and the enemies level. So I'd recommend just either ignoring that part if you are fighting enemies much higher level than you, or just use it to compare your EHP with diff DR %'s, or if you are at/near the armor cap, just put in another stack of 85% DR.
📝🤔❗️takin notes like a bank heist 💯
I wanted to give my perspective, as a pvper, on the case for Dodge since it wasn't explored in too much depth here since that's why I clicked on the video for a more mathematical perspective. But this is my take, at least situationally speaking, because the mechanics and caps and bugs in pvp are much different to how pve/gearing works. Such as the armor/crit cap, the Hota bug, and Barriers. So this is why I take Dodge on pants and boots, as a melee Druid. (I will note I don't take/need to take Max HP which only has overlap on the leg slot with a potential Dodge roll, because Bulwark barrier build only scales with Base HP, just for transparency)
1) As we know most DR is conditional and therefore not effective at all times. IE. DR Close is going to be worth much less against ranged builds in pvp, or DR Distant is going to be worth less against melee builds. Therefore the goal is to have defensives that get value by having the most “uptime” such as While Fortified which you can control yourself or automatically applied like Poison effects (though I will cover this one specifically later on). Or Dodge (not Dodge Close/Distant) which is not conditional, that's a big plus over most other DR sources, it is always providing value just like a straight DR roll.
2) Since you only need 9.2k armor or some ppl say 9.5k in pvp to cap, you can reach this while still having room on your pants/boots for Dodge (at least as a Wolf Druid).
3) Because of the Hota aspect bug that some ppl say either ignores armor, ignores defenses, or basically just does unintended, or at the very least imbalanced amounts of dmg, and ends up 1-3 shotting you, having some amount of Dodge (not talking about Rogs that can get tons) ~20% and a not insignificant chance to take no dmg, because taking any hit (regardless of amount of DR stacked) will still get you one shot, could be the difference between having a few more seconds to kill or kite. Furthermore, UNLESS you are playing a Low HP Bulwark build that has DR Fort/Injured up 100% of the time on a Barrier, I feel like DR Injured (which is the highest stackable DR) does almost nothing against Hota bug since you would have to be injured (
That makes a lot of sense for pvp. Great points. I admit I haven't delved much into the pvp side of the game yet so this is a great perspective. Thanks!
You are an absolute legend! Great way to teach real methods of understanding these dynamic mechanics in d4. 👏👏👏
I felt like i was back in school but i actually learned something 😂😂
However, dodge% will grant you chance to get rid of CC skill, not just damage.
you can get around 20/25 dodge chance with goof roll if im not wrong, its sound kool but i'm not sure its viable? maybe rogue got something for it but other class dont
I got 15%, +12% with passive proc, +12% dodge vs close targets, +8% ring aspect dodge vs DOTed enemies. Also was wondering is 1 big source of lets say dodge or lucky hit better then 2-5 smaller. Or they works the same way in this case with the same % to dodge overall?
I got around 40-50% dodge chance on my rogue with the elusive aspect and it is wild
Also I forgot potion gives 4-10% dodge.
Incredible, thanks for answering my question about Challenging shout, this helps a lot!!
I really like the fact, that you've created a whole video answering people's questions (especially in a visual learning way). As some people learn better visually 😊
Keep up the great content!
My pleasure!
As a stats major, this is excellent. Yes for sure there are edge cases and many unique affixes from different sources, which require different calculations. It would take a wiki to go through the math from every items and skills from every classes or every differences between scenarios, levels and monsters. In general, this video is accurate. Thumbs up 👍🏻❤
Thanks, ya... def a lot of diff cases to consider and every case is slightly diff depending on spec! Glad it got a stats major approval
great stuff, thanks again dude!
Great contents my friend. Yesterday i finish my first Nightmare lv77, thx your help ;)
If you're playing Necro minions, dodge is worth it. Anything to give your minions a chance to dodge CC is pretty handy.
I dont think you can completely forego damage reduction for dodge chance but it does have its perks. It is kinda nice that every attack you dodge could be one less application of vulnerable or cc on your character the same is not true for damage mitigation. In the tooltip for dodge chance it states that it has some kind of diminishing returns id love to see the data on that to better understand the value of the stat.
Another thing id like to know is can you dodge while under a hard cc like stun, there are certainly some games where that is the case so it wouldnt hurt to check.
Think of it this way: In theory, dodge is expected damage (as per expectation in statistics), 20%*100dmg+80%*0dmg = 20dmg. This LOOKS as though it is damage reduction IF you can tank the hit. If you cannot tank the damage, as per T100 NM dungeons, if you have 10000 Effective hp and every small monster hits you for 10000, who cares about dodge chance? Even if you have 80% dodge you are going to get 1 hit by a mob, 4 times and game is over. But if you have 80% DR, 10000damage becomes reduced by 80%, and you can drink potions to recover or use skills to heal back or fight sections by sections, completion is definite. However, dodge chance has its "luck" when it comes to say uber lilith fight when you are going to get 1 hit or when you do not get 1 hit. Most top tier builds (T100 or Lilith, may be different for other use case such as PvP) will not put dodge chance as a priority above DR, or not even a single build that I have seen.
@@elysiandream7 ya i know thats why i said not to forego damage reduction for dodge chance
@@elysiandream7 oh i see i made a mistake in my original comment, i meant to say "i dont think you should completely forego damage reduction for dodge chance" not the other way around. I've edited it now.
Basically if you have a healthy amount of damage reduction to keep you well out of one shot territory for the content you are doing then dodge chance is fine. I understand that in t100 you might never have enough damage reduction to be in a place to consider dodge chance in that case dont take dodge chance.
Great vid as always, thx for your work!
My pleasure!
Thanks a lot for the calc u da best!
Woohoo speadsheets!!
Just to add to the conversation about the benefits of dodge chance, as a fellow Rogue main, at least. The obvious major downside to DC is it does no good even if you could dodge 4 out of 5 hits, if the 5th hit one shots you. This is why they removed it from dex classes in D3 and replaced it with armor.
What's REALLY elegant about its implementation in D4, at least to me, is they tied all these other proc effects to it. So if you can, say, build enough survivability to be able to not be one shot, and have some wiggle room, or even just for speed farming, stacking DC along with these proc effects allows for these pretty cool dodge builds. Or at least in theory. I've yet to fully lean into a dodge build, but my napkin math suggests there's some viability there.
have you an idea how many dodge chance you can get as rogue ? (with say perfect substat gear aspect and paragon) i get the substat part aprox. but dont play as rogue atm.
50-55%, mb more. But the more u stack it the less u will get
@@sergeyreklama4198 thx. Sure it will propably get diminishing return ,have to see.
I forgot potion also gives 10% in max.
I mean this is perfect timing. Ggs
What exactly constitutes as a "source" tho? If Ihave 10% DR vs Elites from a passive and 10% DR vs Elites from a Paragon node are these added to each other or are they different instances of DR?
Love it! Nice one sir! This would be helpful for diablo4 gamers!
I hope so!
I know, different topic, but maybe you know...
What I´m not sure about is: Does "+% shadow damage" actually
work with "shadow DoT"... because these ARE two different stats and knowing Blizzard it could very well be
that I´m currently wasting statspoints on shadow damage while actually needing ONLY shadow DoT.... Why I´m not sure
is, because every tick of, lest´s say "blight corpse explosions" deals shadow damage, right? So does "+ shadow damage" apply
to everything shadow, while "shadow DoT" only apllies to DoT specifcially? or are both in fact entirely seperated regarding dmg-bonus?
edit: also why I´m asking is, comparing it to Mage: Blizzard does basically deal "Cold dmg over time", similar to what Blight does. It IS affected
by "+% cold damage" from what I could see on my Sorc, while Sorc doesn´t have "cold DoT" stats specifically... So I would assume it would be no different, but can I be sure?
Questions over questions with this game´s systems :)
Good point. So many things in this game aren't real clear until someone actually goes out and tests them. Shadow DOT I would assume only applies to DOT dmg and not all shadow dmg. Shadow % tho I would think applies to both instant shadow dmg and dot shadow dmg, but maybe it doesn't apply to shadow dot dmg? Rogues don't have shadow dot dmg, so I don't know. =(
@@Xarrio I would assume the same, but I didn´t find a reliable way to test it yet... but I sure will try.
These videos are great!
Thank you!
You're very welcome!
I thouhgt +max life on armor does not affect barrier anyway, and it is only affected by base life? Or does that include armor stats??
right most of barrier scale of base HP wich sucks , but maybe there is some exeption.(gem can get you +25% barrier generation tho)
@@edwar6706 yeah I recently switched gems to rubies and tested, was confused about what the case was
Ya.. I don't play barb/necro, so I was just answering it based on the question. Not sure if that is the case or not in all situations/chars.
5:50 Challenging Shout's %DR is a single instance of %DR. Adding 2% DR to that single instance is more effective than adding a 2% DR multiplier, right?
A question about "Skills and damage reduction": even though the percent that you're mitigating is going up and each rank increases that, isn't the actual amount of raw damage that you are preventing a fixed increment? Using the stats in the video @6:28 - 60% damage taken from a 100 hit is 60 damage. 58% damage taken from a 100 hit is 58 damage. 56% damage taken from a 100 hit is 56 damage. So even though it looks like each 2% increase is more valuable than the last one from a percentage standpoint, the raw value of mitigation from each 2% is exactly the same (a linear difference in damage taken). Correct me if I'm wrong, because I suck at math.
You are right that the raw amount is getting less, but percentage wise, you are reducing more of the remaining dmg each time, which results in it actually being more powerful.
for example, consider the following extreme case:
Lets say you have 100 health.
Lets say you take 20 dmg per hit. It takes 5 hits to kill you.
Now, lets say you reduce that dmg by 5. Now you take 15 dmg. Now it takes 7 hits to kill you. This is 2 more hits than before.
Now, lets say you reduce that dmg by 5 again. Now you take 10 dmg. Now it takes 10 hits to kill you. This is 3 more hits than before.
now, lets say you reduce that dmg by 5 again. Now you take 5 dmg. Now it takes 20 hits to kill you. This is 10 more hits than before.
Do you see how reducing the dmg by a fixed amount makes the amounts of hits to kill you increase more and more each time? This is why reducing the dmg by a fixed amount gets more powerful.
@@Xarrio right, but that's a 25% mitigation increase vs the 2% increase from the original, so of course it looks strong in that example. A single 25% reduction like above would be equivalent to almost 13 extra ranks in the shout and far more than you're going to actually get from any single stat on gear. I think a more appropriate example would be: the base shout gives you 60% reduction from, for example, a 5k hit. That becomes a 2,000hp hit. With one extra rank, going to 62% reduction, you go to a 1900hp hit. Against that size of hit, each rank of the shout is going to give you another 100hp reduction (our fixed value). That 100hp is not going to make a meaningful difference in your damage taken compared to virtually any other defense stat (or just flat hp) for that equipment slot. For a 5k hit when you have 10k life, with the 60% base shout damage reduction, you can take 5 hits (10,000hp/5 hits=2,000 damage). To be able to take one more single full extra hit, the hit total needs to reach 1,666 hit size (10,000hp/6 hits=1,666 damage). Since we can't hit that number, we have to round to 1,600, which would be 4 extra ranks in the shout. So for this hit size, the fixed value is a pretty poor return on investment (100hp damage reduction per rank, basically 1% of your max life). Using a lower value damage, like a 2,000hp hit, our 60% shout makes us take 800 damage so we can take 12.5 hits (10,000hp/800 damage=12.5). Going up just one shout rank takes the damage to 760, which allows us to take 13 hits (10,000hp/760 damage=13). With potions, regen, lifesteal, etc. these low hits aren't what we are worried about anyway. With things like armor and other damage reductions I know it's way better, but the higher the hit is relative to your total HP the worse these fixed value reductions seem to become (which seems counter-intuitive, since % reduction is "better" the higher the incoming damage is).
Apologies for the long post, poor formatting, and probably questionable math!
Aspect of Might (+20% DR) or Aspect of Disobedience (+50% armour)?
Getting enough armor to hit the 85% DR cap from armor is darn near impossible. However getting 75% of that and using Disobedience to make up the rest is quite doable. As Xarrio explained in a previous vid, that last 25% can double your EHP vs. phys dam (which is probably most of the damage you take?). Getting an extra 20% DR on top of what you already have is weaker by comparison -- except that DR also protects you from ele dam.
On barb, for pushing nm, going from base ~9k armor to 13k-14k with disobediance gives u i think the most dr in the game. Half of that also applies to elem dr.
But u should use both.
Dodge chance should be included in effective health pool, not just armor, health and dmg reduction.
Helpful calculator btw, good job 👍
Thanks. You can add in dodge to the calculator. Just treat it as an extra stack of DR.
If you want the challenge you should work out PVP statistics per class, a lot of class theory crafting going on for pvp. Your input on it would be great
DUDE THANKS
👏👏👏
Great vid, take a like + sub. Keep up the great work
Does rouge, mage and necro clear more dungeons faster? Cause im trying to get to 100 for achievement
EHP calculator doesn't work. I can't put any numbers on the green cells. Is it broken or am I just dumb?
Did you make a copy of the spreadsheet?
Thanks 4 the vid
Fantastic video. I think you misunderstood the point about life and barrier and fortified though
So the point they were making is if you add 1k life you also add 1k to your max barrier amount so if you regularly can fill that barrier adding 1k life is not 1k EHP it is 2k ehp so more valuable than it would appear. Also increasing your flat life typically means each source of barrier goes up. So like on Sorc I get barrier as a % of life on killing a frozen enemy or using a cooldown. So having more life means I not only get more barrier when it is full but that I get more every time I generate barrier. Thus again it increases my ehp (although harder to tell without knowing how often I will be recovering that barrier while fighting)
Similarly on fortify bonus adding 1k life gives you more fortified amount though this I am less sure the advantage of as the purpose of scaling fortify gains on %life is to make it not a negative to scale life when you have hps. If fortify gains were flat getting more life could hurt your ability to maintain fortify. Making so many gains % based helps negate that
Here is the way I am thinking about it:
Lets say you have 10000 life and 10000 barrier.
You effectively have 20000 hp.
If you increase your life by 1000, that will also increase your barrier by 1000. For a total of 2000 hp.
Now your total hp is 20000+2000 = 22000.
This is a change of 2000/20000, which is still a 10% change. It doesn't matter if you have barrier or not, the change in ehp is still 10%.
Similarly the 10% DR is still a change in 11% EHP making it better than the change in life+barrier because the 10% DR makes the 10000 life and 10000 barrier 11% stronger.
Maybe this would have been a clearer way to explain it in the video ^. I was trying to go fast though and didn't want to spend 5 min doing an example drawing it out.
All barrier of object and class d'oesnt work the same , for exemple "temerity" (unique pants) dont scale with max HP and are not affected by barrier generation so 1k more hp = 0 barrier augmentation same for earthen bulwark there seem so have a strange cap depend on what you upgrade (the spell iself ,gem,aspect etc). it can still be good option as when you geet barrier you can't be CC right ?
Most barrier sources only scale with base HP. This is why sorc's defense gimmick sucks. If you have 20k your barriers will still only be the maximum of 7595(max hp at 100).
Do I understand correctly, that each specific DR type is additive to other sources of itself first, then all the different final DR type values are multiplicative with eachother, as the character sheet stats lead you to believe?
I think all dr is multiplicative with each other, except for specific skills like barb challeging shout where each rank "adds" 2% dr. And having one large dr value is better than having multiple smaller drs of the same total, i.e: one 50% dr gives more ehp than 5x10% drs.
@@W.M.1 I guess that would make sense, since I looked around and max possible affixes on fully-upgraded gear and it seems you can get a 41-point-something percent DR while injured on 3 pieces, which obviously couldn't possibly be additive with eachother.
How does each type of DR work with environmental damage (like in nightmare dungeons, or meteor from helltide ) or damage after monster death?
What would make sense to me is that DR% from DR% all and DR% armor and DR% fortified would work vs environmental. I don't think DR close/distant would work b/c those aren't enemies. I haven't tested this however.
@@Xarrio That's what I would assume, hopefully someone would test it out.
Are you able to combine this with Armor?
Just to be absolutely sure. If I have 2 sources of 10% dr close. Its not dr close bucket of 20% dr, but 2 separate 10% dr calculations. So 0.9x0.9 right?
Were you able to analyze how paragons work in that case? You have like 3 nodes of 2% and one of 8%. Is really every node separate or it counts paragon board like 1 source? Same as 1 item for example.
In tooltip on char for example with sorc when I already have 50% dr burning and add 2% node it shows only 1% added. So maybe its already taking into account the overall calculation of that bucket in tooltip for the type.
Would make sense because delta from 50 to 52 on paper is realy only 0,4% increasw
Yes, every node, every affix, etc. acts multiplicatively individually. The stat sheet just shows you the multiplicative calculation for each DR stat individually, which is the equivalent DR if you were to multiply each one individually.
@@Xarrio yeah. Thats how it looks to me as well. So easiest and correct is to take tooltip drs and multiply that. Because in background its already calculated in tooltip. To make it easier.
Btw great videos. For us math min maxers ;)
Ive been wondering about a dodge build with rogue, since there are a few aspects and passives that grant quite a bit of % dodge chance, and there are some rolls (on boots maybe) that grant increased damage after you dodge. If your dodge chance is high enough and it procs all the time, it might be a fairly consistent damage increase
You still need enough DR that you don't die in 1 hit and a good enough dodge chance that you can heal the lost health before a likely hit again. I haven't explored for example if standing in a pool of poison can be dodged, but if it can't, you'll also find that any other unavoidable or DoT effects will absolutely dissolve you. Although one thing to note about dodge technically you can high roll(get really lucky) and go very long strings without any damage being dealt. As in technically speaking someone with 90% DR will still die in 10 hits with 100 damage base, but even a 1% chance to dodge COULD theoretically survive dozens or more. It's just to do so would often be more likely than getting multiple Uber uniques from the same elite at the same time exactly 100 hours from you reading this message. DR is consistent and ALWAYS effective, dodge chance has a CHANCE to be better or worse and it will be entirely random. Typically consistency wins. That only occurs when you become more likely to succeed long strings of dodges than fail. That however I don't believe is possible in this game yet. I'd want something like 80-85% dodge chance before I'd be happy taking it over raw damage reduction.
In this case there's an aspect they buffed recently that lets you dodge 7x every 45 seconds, ive been intrigued Bout how effectively it procs and the mechanics behind it also if youre able to kindve drag that 7 to fill in that 45 sec window or if its just instant 7 b2b. N then you got the agile passive for rogues that grant you up to 12% increased dodge chance for 4 sec everytime you use a cooldown, so in theory you could really dodge a lot 😅
Very interesting. If I wanna decide which between sapphire or ruby is better for my character, there's a way to translate the +4% life of each ruby in your spreadsheet to compare it with the 3% DR of sapphires?
Easiest way is to unsocket your gear, see what your hp is before and after putting rubies in. Then put your hp before into the calculator and the added health from the rubies. Then calculate your total DR from sapphires using the DR calculator and put that into the right side as a total DR to compare. A little complicated... I know. But I'm planning on doing a gem guide soon.
@@Xarrio many thanks!
On TB poison build, do we deal more dps if get crit damage everywhere we can or just go full bonus that increase the poison DoT ? Assuming the ennemy is vulnerable
for tb poison, u don’t need crit damage. go all DoT, poison/non phys damge and core/main stat
@@riothegod1831 core increase DoT ?
Would it be possible to show the amount of Damage Reduction VS Armor is needed to get 85% overall VS Tier100 NM mob?
For example, if you have 6800 armor, how much actual +% DR from stats you would need to achieve 85% DR overall since its all manipulative?
Seems pretty odd that I can have 8500 armor, then have 50% DR while Fortified, 55% DR from Close, 10% all DR, and additional 10% DR for class bonus (barb), and still getting 1 shotted. In some cases still getting 1 shotted even with all that plus Rank 12 Challenging Shout up (62% Damage Reduction)
Good question. The 85% DR cap is just from armor, you can get over 85% DR total by adding on more DR sources.
For example if you have 85% DR from armor, you can add another 10% DR piece to get you to 86.5% DR. If you check out my previous vid on armor, you'll see that 8500 armor is actually not much if you are pushing high NM dungeons and you'll want a lot more to not get 1 shot at times.
In the open world, so at equal level, my lv 99 druid hits the 85% DR from armor cap at about 9k armor according to the character sheet tooltip. In a previous vid it was explained that the effectiveness of armor falls off at a rate of about 1% per additional tier/lvl. So it makes sense that armor reaches the 85% DR cap at about 14k armor in a T100 NMD.
So I'm thinking that if I can manage about 10k armor and run Disobedience, I should be hitting the armor cap when I need to.
Question: how is the order of DR worked out? Example I have 10, 20, 30 does it calculate it with highest first 30, 20, 10 or low high or when was acquired etc ?
The order doesn't matter. It is all multiplicative so any order results in the same result.
@@Xarrio ok cool makes sense. You are right.
Aren't dmr's put together in a bucket like the damage %'s are? That would still make 3x 20% poison dmg reduction quite strong for instance.
All sources of DR are weighted equally, so there are no DR buckets despite what the character sheet might lead you to believe. All that matters is what types of DR will be most applicable based on your play style.
@@ericbohn611 Thanks :)
Do you think you could take a crack at stacking damage dealt. Maybe help explain why sometimes my crits are 300k dmg (light yellow) and base attacks are 1 million (white)
Wtf lol... are you sure? Bc like you said white is your base damage and light yellows your crit based off that white base dmg....
When i kept moving up in damage using xarrios rf build i remember my average starting was about the same as yours @3-500k n then critting 1mil about 25% of the time maybe less, n then 5-800k n then critting 1.5-2.2 maybe a 3rd. And then you'll get to a pt now where you can actually start averaging 1mil almost every other hit if that!
Just to make sure I understand: Am I correct in assuming that your DR calc doesn't distinguish between types of DR (close, when poisoned, etc.) when computing EHP?
Thx in advance 👋👍
There is no need to distinguish. You yourself can assume which conditional DRs are likely to have 100% uptime and which are not. You can even assign a weight to them to get a better idea on how they'd affect an "average" situation. For example, if you have 3 sources of dr when poisoned and all are 10%, and you have 80% uptime of poison, you can simply multiply those 10% modifiers by 0.8 before including them in the final calculation. My recommendation though is to just look at your build strictly and look at what really has 100% uptime and what does not. Anything that's not close to 100% uptime should probably not be included.
@@robinwesterbeeke1498 Ehh, that's kinda my point though ... That conditional/contingent values probably shouldn't be lumped together with permanent uptime ones 🤨 So yes, and as per your own implicit admission, it actually *does* matter.
If, however, the goal is to have a vague/rough estimate, then this is fine 😐
Either way, pretty sure Xar was just after a rough calc, so NBD ... I was/am merely looking to gain insight on what his formula may have been.
Great question/point. Yes, no matter what you do you will be getting a rough estimate unless you calculate every single single condition and/or every single possible combination of conditions one at a time. For example you may calculate "what is my % DR when I am close and the enemy is poisoned?" Well then you put in your all DR, DR close and DR poison and get that number. Well, what if I am distant and I'm CC'd? Well then you put in your all dr, your dr while CC'd and distant DR. etc. etc. Gets kinda crazy. The best way is probably just to put in the combo that occurs most frequently if you want to keep it simple, but if you really want to get into it, you do the above. You could try doing what robin said with estimating uptime and multiplying by the % DR, but because EHP doesn't scale linearly with DR, it actually isn't a great way either.
This actually gives me an idea of how we could estimate it using weighted averages that would be more accurate... Stay tuned!
@@piotrkosztirko438 what I was more hinting at is that the DR that matters is what’s always there. For example I get 30% DR after Teleporting. It’s not reliable so I don’t count it. I also don’t pick up DR from burning anymore on gear. Instead I run close and distant. I need to hit stuff first before they burn. Could die before that happens. One way to calculate these in is to assign weights to them if you really wanted. But I would focus on getting your “always on” DR as high as possible.
@@robinwesterbeeke1498 Lol, yeah my guy - your point wasn't particularly difficult to grasp. But TY(?).
great video! Can we add armor %'s to the sheet as well?
I wish I could. I don't have a great way to figure out the % DR from armor values b/c it depends on character and monster level.
have you considered making a PVP Rogue build? i'd be interested to see your take on it
I haven't delved much into pvp in this game yet as I find it to be... lacking personally. Hopefully they'll add more pvp events into the game at some point to make it more engaging/worthwhile/objective based?
Too bad they can't have these calculations in game displayed as effective health so we can make gear selection easier 😒
Dude, R u a teacher at Uni or something like that? You at damn good at teaching!
Shhh it's a secret.
Mm spreadsheet is missing armor?
Unfortunately I don't have a good way to equate armor = a certain % DR because it changes depending on a persons level and armor scales weird, and I don't have a good model for that. =( But if you are at max DR from armor, you can just put a stack of 85% DR in the calc and be fine.
Sick thumbnail bro
Glad someone appreciates it.
I really wish I knew if close Dr works against environmental stuff. Like body's blowing up etc.
You can never be too sure with Blizzard, but I would assume that all sources of damage
within melee range are considered "close"... Although I would love to know for sure, because that
would mean that (if it applies at all) "%-damage+ vs. closed enemies" would work for skeletons
even if I keep myself at distance...
Do explosion snapshot at time of trigger? Like if ur distant and come close to the explosion.
Math is cool
Once again, thank you for all of the awesome content. This build just dropped a few hours ago and I would love your opinion on it versus your build, or in the alternative, as possible modifications to your build: ruclips.net/video/n69CjyucsZM/видео.html
It's an interesting idea. I wouldn't use those defensives that he has tho (temerity and what not). Otherwise the caltrops freeze could work. I'm also skeptical of builds that are being shown off in anything less than a T80. Not be to be elitist, just that almost any build works in T60s if you have decent gear.
@@Xarrio Can you please explain the difference between the 2 builds you have posted now. In addition, the +t85 one says w/o diminish but I do not see a build with diminish anywhere. Thanks.
@@michaelkofsky6599 Ya, the two builds just has 1 that is more defense oriented (swapped the 4th board) while the other is more dmg oriented for lower dungs. the w/o diminish tag is just something that I used b/c I made another build that I didn't put out that does use diminish. I have too many boards w/ variations to keep track of at this point lol.
@@Xarrio Thank you for clarifying. One last question please. Does the math bear out that having Disobedience on the amulet is better defensively than having Umbrous?
@@michaelkofsky6599 It just depends if you need umbrous on your amulet to keep your shrouds up or not. If you can keep the shrouds up without it on amulet, then dis is better.
could you add armor to the spreadsheet?