TREMEC Tech- Bellhousing Runout Alignment - The Easy Way
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2021
- Shane and William with Silver Sport Transmissions demonstrate the easiest bellhousing dial-in method. This is required for all TREMEC transmissions in order to validate any warranty claims. Failure to dial indicate the bellhousing could lead to driveline vibrations and even transmission failure. Call 888-609-0070 or visit ShiftSST.com for more information.
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This is the best video I've seen on this subject. My runout came out to .0035. Now I can install my new TKX with no worries. Thanks!
Best explanation I have seen yet. Thanks!
Thanks!
very very interesting and on point. American Powertrain does not mentioned this critical bell housing run out measurement procedure, off set dowels and reassembly. I learned alot from you all today and I thank you.
This was easier then how it did it ! Thanks for taking the time to make this.
Awesome video. You helped make total sense of that. It will be a complete different story when I try it myself someday. 😂
Thank you for this video. I'm considering a tko 5 speed, and this video makes it look easy to get the bell housing centered.
I just want to say thank you for this video. I purchased a QuickTime bell housing for my LS/T56 combo and this has kicked my butt. You guys are so great. If your reading this DO NOT BUY YOUR OFFSET DOWEL PINS ANYWHERE BUT SILVERSPORT. the marking makes it so easy to align and know where to install. THANK YOU THANK YOU.
Great video!!! Thanks again for all of the tech help.
Great video! I just got mine in the mail yesterday. You made my life that much easier.
I agree with subzero, I've watched several vids on how to do this and yours is the most clear and understandable one yet. Great job, thanks.
I haven’t ever seen anyone do this so thanks for the education.
Excellent tutorial !
Amazing video - this is extremely helpful and thorough!
Super easy and best so far!
Excellent tutorial. Makes it crystal clear. Not looking forward to removing the old dowel pins from my Pontiac 455. Can't push them out like on a BBC.
Great video by the way, I had it wrong on how to do this. Cant believe this is only 1 degree out with a 60's stock used bellhousing
Great Job Shane!
Building my Factory5, this is perfect help
Nice Shane! Love the use of charts too... keep at it! (Ohhh, my twin disc is going in this week.. .that video should be out soon) See ya!
Thanks for the heads up! We'll watch for it. - Misty
Hello, which twin disc did you use? Was it quiet or chutter and make noise?
This is very helpful! Thanks for the vid.
This was helpful, thank you.
William is the man!
You would be amazed at how much gravity could be throwing off your readings. While performing a Tremec swap in my Camaro, I tested 3 different mag bases for holding the indicator. I found differing degrees of error, due to gravity. The best mag base was accurate to within .001" up/down. The worst setup I tried was off by .0075". The weight of the mag base was causing the indicator to sag. Also, I don't know why Tremec tells people to divide the runout number in half. All of my GD&T training taught me that runout is reported as total indicator travel. Yours looks to be just under .007". Still good by the Tremec Tech's advice.
ruclips.net/video/fu9bg-fJdnc/видео.html
The first thing we do is check the dial indicator for a consistent reading. If it isn’t consistent, you’re correct, there is a problem with the indicator, the arm, or the magnetic base. It must be fixed to get an accurate reading.
Next we measure the distance between the center of the crankshaft and the center of the bellhousing register hole. The center of the bellhousing register hole must be within 0.005” of the center of the crankshaft. When we find the high and low points, we find the direction we must move the bellhousing, and now we just have to figure out how far to move it.
When we spin the dial indicator again, we find the Total Indicator Reading (TIR) is 0.015”. Anytime you rotate the dial indicator 180 degrees on one radius to measure another radius, you have to divide by two to get the offset or Total Runout, so we divide it by two which is 0.075”. We have to be within 0.005” Total Runout so we have to correct the bellhousing position with 0.007” off-set dowel pins. Previously, we determined the 5 o’clock position to be our high point and the 11 o’clock position was negative, so we need to move the bellhousing towards zero - down and to the right.
ruclips.net/video/fu9bg-fJdnc/видео.html
We verified the correction by first checking for a consistent dial indicator reading and second checking for the Total Indicator Reading and finally dividing by two which gives us our Total Runout of .0025”, well within spec.
We’re confident that our reading is accurate and by moving the bellhousing down and to the right we were able to get it within spec for a TREMEC transmission. Any bar sag caused by gravity was not enough to push us out of spec and it was also minimized by securely mounting our dial indicator and repeatedly measuring the Total Indicator Reading to check for consistent measurements.
@@SilverSportTransmissions The indicator reading can repeat and still be far from an accurate reading, due to gravity. The weight of the indicator, along with the weight of the articulating arm that holds the indicator will cause some sag. The heavier your components, the more the sag. If the indicator has .005" sag, it will read .005" high on the lower surface and .005" low on the upper surface (assuming the bell housing register is dead center. If you want to test this phenomenon, zero your indicator in the normal upright position (contacting the lower surface of the bell housing register) and then hang a fishing weight to the indicator by a string. Your indicator weighs 4-5 ounces. If you hang a 4-5 ounce weight, I guarantee that the needle will move, indicating that the bell housing is now sitting too high.
As far as runout. I don't know why every video like this on RUclips tells people to divide the TIR in half. That is how to calculate how much offset is need to center the Bellhousing. That is not how runout is calculated. TIR is the runout value. Runout is not just a measurement of location. It is also a measurement of form. If your bell housing register is .005" out of round, yet the average location is perfect, the runout is still .005" and can not be improved.
I know that I am just some random guy on the internet, but if you do some research, you will see that the information I am sharing is accurate. I have been a QC Inspector for 25+ years. I have taken numerous training classes in GD&T and have been an ASQ Certified Quality Inspector (CQI) since 2011.
@@gregirvin2459 Very interesting. How to fix?
Add weight to opposite side of dial indicator to cancel error (maybe even on every quadrant)?
Or maybe measure deflection error and add this to runout calculation.
This also raises the question that the crank is being measured statically. Rotating the crank at engine speed will have oil pressure which will change the runnout.
@@Dont_Gnaw_on_the_Kitty_1 In my case I was able to test 3 different indicator bases to find the best one. You really need to test your setup on a granite surface plate to know the error. Fortunately, I have access to excellent measurement equipment at work.
@@gregirvin2459 Oil pressure on the crank bearing when the engine is running would affect this static measurement. How would you go about cancelling this error in the real world - Y=MX+B?
Lucas from T Rex arms installs trannys now? lol In all seriousness this was an awesome video, thanks for posting!
Awesome video Thanks Just a question Is the run out tool magnetic ?
The base part, attached to the flywheel is. The dial indicator itself is not.
Now that you have that bit of information does it throw off the 6 bell housing mounting bolts?
The bellhousing will bolt up just fine, even after adjusting with the dowel pins.
Great video
Do you have an application for the offset pins on a Chrysler 340LA?
I'm just creeping on the install process till my TKX comes in from ya. 😁
Yes, we have pins for that engine. Call up Shane or Chris, 888-609-0070
@@SilverSportTransmissions will do once I get the TKX from you when it comes in. 😁
My question is this, where does the magnetic base sit? Does it matter where? I would think u need a special tool or rod that goes inside the crank.
It goes on the flywheel. If the base is too large to fit, you can remove one of the bolts. It doesn't have to be in the center because the base will travel in a perfect circle around the center of the crank.
Great Video, but I have a question. Since the transmission also bolts to the bell housing, what keeps it in perfect alignment so that this centering that is shown here does not get thrown off? I will be getting a TKX for my Chevy, and want to make sure I've got everything "covered."
The dowel pins and the bellhousing to engine bolts hold the bellhousing in the correct place.
I want to install one pretty soon, but Im just wondering if there is any slop when you bolt the transmission to the bellhousing, that would also need centering? I dont have parts yet, so nothing to look at.
@@jaycee1639 no, the bellhousing aligns the transmission to the crankshaft. There will be complete instructions with your kit.
“ The dowel pins and the bellhousing to engine bolts hold the bellhousing in the correct place.”
Why would the dowel pins between the transmission and bellhousing be any better at doing so than those between the engine and bellhousing?
I'm guessing the block plate does need to be on for this right? I feel like most videos I've seen don't show any block plates on, just the bellhousing. Great video by the way!
The block plate will not change the runout measurement, so it's OK to measure without it.
@@SilverSportTransmissions Thank you!
@@Brettpls You're welcome!
Good video. Something I’ve never understood about using offset dowel pins to correct the runout is, how does the bolt holes still line up between the BH and the block? If the dowel pins move the bell housing enough, how can the bolt holes still line up correctly?
The bellhousing bolt holes are slightly larger than necessary to allow the bellhousing to move the few thousandths it needs to move. The dowel pins have a snug fit and keep the bellhousing in place until the bolts are tightened down. We have on very rare occasions had customers who had 21 thousandths offset dowel pins (the greatest offset) who had to enlarge their bellhousing bolt holes, but even amongst customers with 21 thousandth dowel pins, that is rare.
@@SilverSportTransmissions thanks for clarifying that. I appreciate your time and response.
@@s2_eleven551 You're welcome, glad we were able to help.
Dang dude....look at you :)
Great, but how do you position the gauge? How do you know when the gauge is truly centered with the crank?
The dial indicator is NOT required to be centered to the crank. The dial indicator magnetic base is attached to the flywheel securely. Since the indicator is fixed to the flywheel that is also fixed to the crank, everything rotates as an assembly which allows the indicator to measure the radial position of the indicator tip relative to the fixed position bell housing register hole.
@@SilverSportTransmissions thank you. I was trying to picture this in my mind and i think i understand it now. I just needed to visualize it. Thanks again.
@@curtthompson2787 You're welcome. To be honest, we had to ask the engineers :)
Do you have a link to the offset dowels on your website?
We do not, but you can call in and order them. 888-609-0070
I’m having a brain fog , I bought the kit, the dial indicator, and the magnetic base to do this set up on my TK X, my question is the magnetic base. I know it’s stuck on the flywheel, then you center it the best you can with the dial indicator, I’m guessing, and then you get your measurement points, but shouldn’t there be something that comes out of like the pilot bushing to get that measurement to make sure it’s straight and centered with the hole in the bell housing, or are we just centering the hole with the back of the engine? I’m sorry I just not quite understanding. I don’t mean to be thickheaded I’m just not quite getting it, thanks thank you🙏👍
It's really confusing, it took me a while to get it too. We're mounting the dial indicator to the flywheel which is rotating around the center of the crank. Because the magnetic base is attached to the flywheel, it travels in a perfect circle around the crank. In the meantime, we've placed the dial indicator's plunger on the bellhousing. The plunger goes in and out to measure how close or far the bellhousing's circular opening is from the perfect circle the magnetic base is traveling. So what we're measuring is the edge of one circle compared to the edge of the other circle, they should be a consistent zero all the way around. If the number goes up and down, they're not centered. However, there's a little bit of forgiveness, which we call tolerance. As long as your number is within that tolerance or specification you're good enough!
Perfectly explained. it doesn't matter where the jig is placed at, as long as it is in a good reading position and it doesn't move. "because the magnetic base is attached to the flywheel (no matter where its put) it will always spin or travel in a perfect circle" Before reading this, I was saying to myself great video but he missed the most important step "the setup" "The centering" ! I smiled upon reading your answer, I too wanted to center it... Ha ! .
@@carlospulido6111 Thanks!
Old thread: why did you not check at 90 deg? Yes one direction should bring two circles in to line. But is your bellhousing really round and true? Your already set up and in there it takes only moments to check it at 90 deg for peace of mind. Or is it just me thats picky enough to care? Keep up the good work.
There are some methods that have you check the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions and move the bellhousing in one of those directions or split the difference. Our method finds the highest and lowest points of misalignment (they'll always be 180 degrees from eachother) and once you correct that missalignment you check the entire bellhousing again. It eliminates some of the math and finds the exact location of the misalignement and corrects it. If it's out of spec at the 90 degree mark as you do your last spin, you need to start over because you messed up somewhere or you have something else wrong and you should call our tech line.
How do you know the dial gauge is correctly centred? Thankyou.
The guage doesn't have to be centered. If you can picture the flywheel on the crank and a sticker on the flywheel, as you turn the crank, the sticker will complete a perfect circle with the crank directly in the center of that circle. The guage which is attached with the magnetic base on the flywheel will also do that, it's completing a perfect circle around the crank. The dial indicator's plunger is against the opening of the bellhousing which should also be a perfectly centered circle around the crank. If it's not, the plunger will move in and out and tell you which way the opening needs to move to be perfectly centered around the crank. You just have to make sure that the bellhousing doesn't interfer with the guage as you turn it and that the plunger has room to move in and out before setting the dial indicator to zero so you can measure it.
Any specifc tricks on a T45 that does t havw a removable bellhousing?
No, we don’t sell or service OE transmissions and we don’t have a process for an attached bellhousing.
Is it Positive when it goes to the right of the 0 and negative when it goes left of 0?
Yes, that is correct.
I am getting ready to buy a Tremec TKX transmission. Where can a person get a good dial indicator that doesnt cost hundreds of dollars?
We have them, you can call to get one from us, 888-609-0070. You can also find them at Harbor Freight and other places that are local to you. You'll want one that has a magnetic base and can measure to the thousandths.
@@SilverSportTransmissions do you have a link to your tool? Can't find it on your website. Thanks
@@bicknellwelding1344 We don't have it on the website right now, but you can call 888-609-0070 and order one over the phone.
Okay followed, hit highest number, zero'd and did 180 degree. I guess the lowest adjust is 7 degree which will push me out 1 to 2 degree out the other way.
Is that .005" spec the same for the T56 magnums?
Yes. The bellhousing will not be a round opening, so you'll need a plate to attach to the bellhousing, we have those, just give us a call - 888-609-0070
So.. I just ordered offsets from you yesterday..And I just had a thought that I wish I had before placing my order.. My transmission kit/setup utilizes a 3/8" spacer between the engine block and bellhousing.. Are these offset pins going to work for me.. I forgot all about this. My kit shipped with straight extra long pins to accommodate the extra spacer... is this going to be a concern going forward..
@@nickholashaney9289 I've sent this comment on to our tech team, but call in and speak with them. 888-609-0070
Can this be done with a clutch installed?
You could try, but there's not much room for the dial indicator or base once the clutch is inside the bellhousing and the uneven surface of the clutch may mean the magnetic base could slip. We do not recommend doing it with the clutch installed..
@@SilverSportTransmissions Thank you! Do you have the dowl pins back in stock for a 2015 mustang 5.0?
@@skullhart They're in stock, give us a call: 888-609-0070
Doesn't that change the geometry for the starter?
No, it doesn't.
We’re can you get this indicator
We sell them, or you can find them at places like Harbor Freight and other tool stores. 888-609-0070 and ask for tech, they can place your order or help you find what you need locally.
If block manufacturers just did there job.... I've heard of new dart blocks off by miles.
How do I purchase ?
Call us at 888-609-0070
Thanks for the video. For some reason, this made the light bulb come on in my head. I've been frustrated with this process in the 3 times that I've done it. One thing that seems so simple, I should have known it......was to install the offsets TOWARD the direction you need the bell to move. I don't know why I didn't grasp this before.
The car I'm working on is a 69 Coronet with a 440. I currently have over .080 of runout and I know that nobody makes .040 offset dowels. The tech guy on the phone suggested to scrape any paint off the block where the bell attaches. I will do that but it seems really strange to think that paint could be thick enough to push the bell that far off the mark. I'm going to clean the surfaces, then test fit and measure. Then I'll check the numbers using a stock BH. If the runout remains HUGE, I clearly have a problem elsewhere.
Sounds like you're on the right track. Call us back if sanding out the paint doesn't work.
Use a dry erase marker. You are doing this a bunch of times.
This the the measurement they are checking
Tremec tech vid: ruclips.net/video/fu9bg-fJdnc/видео.htmlsi=TpoEMMyFYrRe2aIK
If a person wants to spend all that time and money for a 6 speed, have at it. I prefer a standard 4 or 5 speed GM transmission, just bolt it up and go, no headaches, no expensive equipment.
The Muncies were once the golden standard for sure, however, they are getting very old and they don’t have an overdriven gear. They also don’t have the torque capacity of a newer TREMEC. There is definitely still a place for them, but for many, a new 5 or 6 speed is exactly what their vehicle needs.
A lot of trouble to fix poor manufacturing of a bell housing.
It’s really a simple and quick measurement. It has nothing to do with the quality of the bellhousing, it’s simply measuring how precisely the engine and transmission line up. If it’s off more than 0.005” (which is so small) dowel pins can shift the bellhousing and transmission towards the center of the crank. The reason the tolerance is so small is because of the tapered roller bearing design on the input shaft of the TREMEC transmissions. This design requires tight tolerances but it also enables the transmission to withstand larger loads.
How important is this? I mean, I guarantee you the OEM’s aren’t doing this on the assembly line.
It is very important. Failure to correct your bellhousing runout to TREMEC’s specifications will void your warranty. You can cause serious damage to your transmission.
@@SilverSportTransmissions Then what about alignment of the transmission with the bellhousing? I mean, if manufacturing tolerances are so sloppy that you have to make sure your bellhousing is aligned with the crankshaft centerline, why would alignment of the bellhousing and transmission be any better? Yet nobody does this.
@@matthewstorm5188 The bellhousing dowel pins locate the bellhousing to the engine. The bellhousing to engine bolt hole openings are wide enough to accept up to a .021" corrective dowel pin. The transmission either lines up with the bellhousing register hole or has locating dowel pins and it is not manufactured to be adjustable.
It's not that manufacturing tolerances are sloppy, it's that the bellhousing is designed to make sure the engine and transmission can be lined up perfectly and that adjustment takes place at the engine/bellhusing mating point.
I wont be doing this and in dont care!
Stupid setup, why wasn't it machine like the factory does
It isn’t about how well the bellhousing was made, it’s about how well the center of the crankshaft, the center of the bellhousing, and the center of the input shaft line up. They have to be exactly centered by .005”. That’s just over the width of a hair.
I believe this is a money grab. Just so someone spends more money
We can assure you it is not. Failure to measure your run-out voids your warranty and can lead to damage to your transmission. Borrow a dial indicator from someone because breaking your brand new $3K transmission and footing the bill for all the repair costs because your warranty is void is not cheap.
How do I purchase ?
Call us at 888-609-0070