The Abraham Facsimile Conundrum: Is it All or Nothing?
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- In Joseph Smith’s interpretations of the facsimiles found in our Pearl of Great Price, he ties all three of them to Abraham, yet when some modern Egyptologists look at those same facsimiles today, they say they have nothing to do with Abraham. One is simply an embalming scene, they say, one a disc representing the eye of Horus, and one a judgment scene from an Egyptian Book of the Dead. So, is this an either-or, sudden-death scenario? Must we, in the name of honesty and rationality, pick a side here? Must we either throw out modern Egyptologists by choosing to stand with the Prophet Joseph on the one hand, or throw out Joseph by choosing to align with modern Egyptologists on the other? Or is there a reconciliatory third path in which both interpretations can be true at the same time? In this episode of Church History Matters, we tackle this important question by looking at some of the best scholarship on this issue, and on our way, we’ll also briefly look at something called the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and discuss a minor controversy associated with those.
This is the eighth episode of our 10-part podcast series on Joseph Smith's Revelations and Translations. For a full transcript of this episode, as well as show notes and additional resources, visit our website at doctrineandcov...
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Originally published October 10, 2023
DISCLAIMER: While we try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast, please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Scripture Central or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I learned a great deal. I do not have doubts about the truthfulness of the church, but I also like to learn. Thank you for make this possible.
I am one of those people who loves listening to these things, but I don't need them to believe the gospel as taught in our church is true. For me, this is just fun. Thanks for sharing!❤
This is fascinating! Thank you.
WOW!!!I love it when my eyes are opened and the Holy Ghost bears witness of truth. So, great. as I didn't even know half of the first part you discussed but am glad that I have lived long enough to have some conclusions and know that my testimony was right on. By the way, as I do try and look up certain episodes of Church History Matters, is there any way the podcasts can be filled chronologically??? It is hard to find them without going through nearly the whole list of past podcasts. They are all so good and again I love this program. You good brothers are great detectives of the scriptures. Thx a bunch.
Great episode. I think I'm like Scott. I'm learning Egyptian and also love the Book of Abraham. Well done considering the issues.
Issues? It’s a complete fraud.
God loves you!
Lol what if the meanings of the Egyptian hyroglyphs changed over time? It's like the word mystery in Greek. It went from referencing initiate rites to something that means unknown.
👍👍
Not sure if you've looked into the Tim Barker analysis ("Translating the Book of Abraham: the answer under our heads") of the fascismiles. Anyone know what critical arguments are against that?
Are there other Egyptian facsimile written about Father Abraham found amongst the ancient scrolls, or did Joseph Smith Jr just happen to find the one & only?
If you listen to the episode, they talk about this... and yes, there are others!
@@homeandgardner7072
Really?
You know of a non-LDS professional & credible Egyptologist who has made statements, or has written anything backing the LDS Book of Abraham?
Do tell…
Paul Gregersen clearly demonstrates Joseph Smith was right. As you're all comparing the facsimiles to the explanation and expecting correlation, correct? Yes. You're supposed to compare the facsimiles to the Book of Abraham to show contrast between God and Satan. This is proper interpretation. Care to refute?
The ancient civilizations borrowed from each other when it comes to religion and it's symbols
What have non LDS Egyptologist scholars deduced from the Pearl of Great Price scrolls? Have any non LDS Professional Scholar’s backed the LDS theory?
There are no scrolls left for scholars to look at. They burnt up in a museum fire. So there isn't anything left that was used in the interpretation process that produced the Pear of Great Price. However, the interpretation from the publication we do have, matches with what non LDS Hebrew scholars understand. In fact, what LDS scholars teach about the book, comes from non LDS Hebrew Scholars. Academics tend to contextualize artifacts with their background. Like how a surgeon only has surgical solutions, and general a general practitioner only has medication solutions, and herbalists only have naturopathic solutions. Egyptologists only understand Egyptian texts within the context of Egyptian life. But Jews borrowed from the cultures around them to teach their own theology. The question shouldn't be, 'what do non LDS Egyptologist understand.' It really has nothing to do with them.
If I believed in Scientology, and given this interpretation for a foundational belief, it would completely enhance my convictions. Easy peezy. Especially cringe HenryJ story but thanks for adding your reflections.
“Smaller more minor controversy”. ????? Come on dudes!!! Is this disingenuous, gaslighting or a plain old inoculation effort? I’m an active member but just know tgese kind of comments literally push people out who are having faith trials. To hear you act like a seriously significant and valid question like this is a small issue makes those who don’t understand the seriousness of it shame those who are sincerely searching for a solution to the BOA conundrums.
Dr. Muhlestein disavowed the Egyptilogical nature of the Book of Abraham 3 years ago. Why still talk about it at all?
Because anti-mormon pawns continue to recycle old arguments for new generations. They wont let us all move on, because they are hell bent on maintaining ignorance in the presence of knowledge.
Word: Hola
JS: it means “Thus said the Lord Jehovah. God loves you.”
Expert: no it means hello.
LDS:. Well the content is true.
Your own church acknowledges that it doesn’t even date from the time or Abraham or even say what Joseph smith said. It’s so sad that you guys STILL don’t see that.
What than is the implication you are getting at? I think you are demonstrating you don't understand the argument. For example, most of the earliest versions of the new Testament do not date to the time of Christ. They are 600 years removed from the time period they write about. If we go by your comment, we have to conclude that the bible is a fraud, because we don't have any scriptural artifacts that date to the time periods that they talk about. Not even the dead sea scrolls date to the time period they talk about. They are hundreds of years removed. Non LDS Hebrew scholars are well acquainted with the Jewish tradition of using the cultures around them to teach their own theology. A text may say one thing to one people, and say something completely different to another people. The only sad thing is your forced ignorance fueled by inherited bigotry. So stupid.