My perception is that there is enough uncertainty, vagueness and contradictory information that people on both side prioritize certain information over other information. I think Brian's comments on the "denial" fall into this bucket - both manipulating debatable content. As you noted, Joseph clearly stated "I can only find one wife" in his denial - unrelated to spiritual wifery. Seems that Brian is applying his conclusions to how he interprets - just like the other side is accused Brian - I know you have read all that statements Brigham made about Emma - for you to call that "words between Brigham and Emma" - seems to be just the reduction/minimizing commentary that those who don't agree use. D&C 132 outlines the guidelines for this program -if one takes up to 10 virgins, they do not commit adultery. Brigham and Heber C took on many more than 10 - and they were not all virgins. So, are we saying polygamy was from God, but men committed adultery by not complying with the revelation?
I love how Brian tries to diminish the polygamy denier argument by saying they are not historians while at the same time claiming he is the lds expert on polygamy even though he’s not a historian.
Justin you are not a historian and you are not a ballistic expert. In fact, the Country’s best ballistic and Forensic expert concluded based off of the evidence and all of the facts that the mob killed Joseph and Hyrum.
Yes he humbly admits he’s not a trained historian which is why he paid a trained historian to collect mounds of data and compiled the most extensive collection of historical data on the subject that has become a tremendous resource for many professional historians.
@@justin-griffin I know Don’ Bradley’s position on Jacob 2:30 and I agree the God’s standard is monogamy. I don’t however agree with the Michelle Stone twisted interpretation. I believe occasionally God has commanded plural marriage.
I simply have two major questions regarding polygamy: 1- What does polygamy have anything to do with Jesus Christ, his atonement and coming unto Him? 2- If polygamy, despite its challenges as you've mentioned here, is, as Dr. Hales teaches, a divinely mandated aspect of Mormonism and its history, why has it not been researched and taught through The Church to this same degree by the authorized Church History Department and presented at General Conference by Prophets, Seers and Revelators?
Great questions! To point 1, I do see how polygamy is tied to the core gospel principle of "what does an eternal family really look like" - and I think for many polygamous wives, it is not joyous. Wish we all had the answer to question 2!!!!
@@Esty120 hello pot calling the kettle black. Pride is such a hard thing for everyone to overcome and you are criticizing the scriptures. Jacob 2:27-30 gives clear instructions that God can command polygamy to raise up seed unto Him, other wise His people shall Hearken unto His command to be monogamous. The other explanations don’t seem to make sense of the use of the word “otherwise”, nor do they refer to the use of “these things” within context of Jacob 2:27-30. The church teaches that polygamy was commanded for a time and then it wasn’t. See Official Declaration 1 at the end of the D&C.
@@Esty120 there is no “loophole” because God does not make loopholes, He simply claims his right to command his people as He wills. That is not a “loophole” as if sneaky people needed a reason to be wicked. Keeping Gods commandments is always counted as righteousness. Like when Abraham sacrificed Isaac, and when Nephi killed Laban, and when Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.
@@Kaydubbbb If you do an analysis of the way the scripture is structured, it's not saying God will command his people to be polygamists. The previous example of "these things" is referring to the wicked practices the people are supposed to be avoiding. It can't just be flipped around in the middle of the sermon. Even Don Bradley, the church's paid historian, admits as much.
@@rowleskids if that is the case, Don Bradly is wrong. Please send the quote of his you are referencing. There are many ways to analyze Jacob 2:30. Here are a few: Every time the phrase “these things”is used it refers to something immediately preceding it that the author is referencing. Jacob uses it many times. 2:14,24;4:4,7,12,13 all show Jacob referencing statements which Jacob has just made and it is easy to tell what is being referenced because they are in the immediate vicinity preceding “ these things” or “this thing” in the literature. It is a similar pattern for every one of the uses of “these things”, or “this thing” In Jacob 2:27-30, Jacob is quoting the Lord, and “they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command by God that references the commands just stated in the immediate vicinity and on the same subject, and translated from the same Hebrew paragraph where Jacob starts it off by saying “ Hearken to the word of the Lord” and finishes the paragraph/chiasmus with “hearken unto these things” We can’t read verse 30 and ignore that the phrase “they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command and also stretch the reference clear back to verse 24, where the use of “ this thing” is not a command, and not even plural, and say that what “this thing” in verse 24 is referencing is the same “thing” as what “they shall Hearken unto these things” is referencing in verse 30. Clearly there are three more related commands more immediately preceding verse 30 than what is referenced in verse 24. They are: “This people shall keep my commandments”, “concubines he shall have none”, and “there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife” These commands are what is referenced by “they shall Hearken unto these things” in verse 30. The word “shall” and the words “shalt not” are always either commands, asking for a command to be given, or declarations of what God or someone will make happen, or what someone should do. For example “ Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.” And “Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.”, and “As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me” and “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?” In the last case shall was used to frame the question meaning “what should they do?” Analysis should recognize that in verse 30, the words “ they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command, and on top of that, it is preceded by the word “otherwise”. Yes the word otherwise is related to Gods exception made just prior to it. One cannot simply ignore the word otherwise. It has a meaning and use in our language, some people change the meaning or ignore the word “ otherwise”, otherwise we would all agree that God reserved the right to direct His people differently than the three commands to be monogamous mentioned in verse 27. One cannot replace “shall”, the command with “will” or “might” or “would” in making interpretations of the scripture to mean people would fall away and hearken unto polygamy if they did not obey Gods commands. That doesn’t even make grammatical sense. Words have to mean what they say and grammar has to make sense. Polygamy is not an entity which can give a command to be hearkened unto. God is giving the command “they shall hearken unto these things” in verse 30. God commanding His people is not the same thing as people choosing to obey God. He respects agency. God does not say “ if they do not obey my commands, they shall become wicked” because God does not command people to be wicked. There are more ways to analyze this, but I think I’m out of room.
The Lord teaches us truth and he told me that Joseph didn’t practice polygamy. Not even something I was looking for. But as I research, Joseph only ever preached against polygamy. It is an abomination. It’s actually more uncomfortable to go against the narrative so it’s not that people want to just not believe Covid or polygamy because it makes them uncomfortable! All things will come to light so no need to worry, just seek truth from God.
The spirit told me the same thing over 10 years ago. Joseph didn’t practice polygamy. It’s just in the past year I have read that Joseph preached against polygamy. Confirmed what the spirit told me years ago.
How do you know it was from the Lord this revelation of yours? Do you have the keys of revelation for the whole world? Does your revelation stand up to the many eyewitnesses who testified otherwise? Is your revelation in unity with the apostles, who must be received in order to receive Christ? ( John 17)
Can they explain Brigham’s polygamy, and why it was so different than the way this podcast described Joseph’s polygamy? Can Brian explain why Jacob 2:24 condemned polygamy, and also condemned king David & king Solomon’s polygamy by God saying that it was an abomination, but then there’s an opposite of opinion Jacob 2:24 in section 132? It’s very contradictory! Jacob 2:24 “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.”
@@Kaydubbbb Never once does it say to marry multiple women. In the latter verse, it specifies single wives twice. Choosing a wife from among a group of women does not mean choose a group of women.
@@amybaker1880 please tell me the verse that specifies single wives? 1Nephi 7:1 says “sons should take daughters to wife”. 1Nephi 16:7 says Nephi’s brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife. Ishmael was old and only had two sons who were already married when they started the trip. Who did Nephi’s sisters (2 Nephi 5:6) marry? Not Zoram, at least not monogamously. Who else was there for Nephi’s sisters to marry on the ten year exodus in their prime birthing years when the Lord had commanded Lehi’s people to raise up seed unto Him?
@@Kaydubbbb I notice you skipped "took one of the daughters" and "took the eldest" out of your quote. It's removing scripture to fit your desire. Who is your God? Mine says not to add or take away.
@@amybaker1880 I’m sure. Do you want me to post the entire chapters? Whole verses seems a bit much as well. Yes Zoram married the eldest daughter. That does not mean that Zoram did not also marry one of Ishmael’s granddaughters or Nephi’s sisters. That doesn’t mean that the Book of Mormon says anywhere that each son married only one daughter and any daughters of Lehi that outnumbered the unmarried sons of Ishmael (who were both already married before the exodus) remained barren and did not help “ raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise” The daughters of the prophet Lehi willing and able to have children but unable due to God neglecting to make an accommodation for them would truly be a tragedy. God did not do that. A prime directive of the exodus was to raise up seed. That commandment is more important than monogamy rules enforced by modern day Pharisees. My God is my Father in Heaven. His Son is the Lord Jesus Christ, the one who is in perfect unity with the Father, who commanded Lehi to allow all of his children to righteously fulfill the commandment in Genesis 1:28 by having daughters marry men who were already married when there was no other choice to raise up seed. My Lord commanded brothers in law of their widowed sisters in law to marry their brother’s widows in Deuteronomy 25:5. So that His believing daughters did not have to marry gentiles to survive. You left out 2 Samuel 12:8. Are being selective here? God Gave wives to David. The entire house of Israel came from a polygamist family. My God is the one who allows people to keep one of His most prime directives for Him by allowing outnumbered men at His will and direction, to marry more than one woman, for the sake of raising up seed and creating a nation. My God commands His people to fulfill His prophecies like Isaiah 60:22 “A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time” Nephi’s sisters weren’t waiting for a decade long journey, missing their prime reproductive years in the process, to be married to the natives once they showed up in the land of promise. They were the little ones who became a thousand, and the small ones who became a great nation. Just like Joseph Smith and all the early saints who righteously practiced polygamy. They all have thousands of descendants today. A great nation of people are here because of them.
This is not professional historical evidence. It’s a manipulation of truth based on altered contemporary source material and claims made decades later. Study contemporaneous source material in its unaltered state to find the truth that Joseph was not threatened by an angel and he did not lie for the Lord and in fact, he didn’t teach or practice polygamy but fought it along with Hyrum who was co-president of the church. They were martyred for fighting polygamy. Polygamy originated with Brigham Young who himself claimed this. Also the judge in the Temple Lot Case ruled that polygamy did not originate with Joseph. There are dozens of speeches by Joseph and Hyrum condemning polygamy. Section 101 refuted polygamy and was later removed when Section 132 was added. What if Joseph was innocent and telling the truth? I believe he was and was martyred for it, but not by the mob. By those much closer, practicing it in secret combination. To avoid legal repercussions the Utah church later lied about Joseph starting polygamy claiming it was an original tenet of the church. But in a court of law, as I previously stated, that was found false. Consider the possibility that Joseph told the truth, something a true prophet would do, and the reasons that the historical narrative presented here sounds so murky is because it’s not true. The narrative being presented here is historical malpractice. Seek the truth and you’ll find it.
@@davidrawlings1176 I have listened. Did you know that the professional historian he hired said in a podcast that he gave Brian Hales a ton of information both for and against polygamy and he cherry picked the ones that suited him and ignored the rest?
Why does God, who is the just, merciful, kind, compassionate, empathetic character require heartbreaking painful, unequal marriage restrictions and requirements in this life? We must be faithful to then understand why we endured or to wait and finally have it all sorted out. It’s quite a conundrum maintaining belief when it looks bad in the past, feels bad in the practice of it today, and to think of the practice of it in heaven is disheartening at the least, anxiety producing at the worst. But God is love.😢💔
My third great grandmother was not committing adultery when she was a widow with an eighteen month old baby boy and she married a polygamist for religious reasons and cooperative survival. She did better than survive, she raised 4 more children on the frontier. Her people were evicted from the USA after the Calvinist pharisees of the 1840s (protestant Christians) created so much opposition which included all kinds of horrible unmentionable things done to the saints and their women which the calvinists had been committing for centuries to those who don’t comply to their beliefs. Unable to own land legally, unable to survive on her own on the frontier. Unable to own a business legally. Unable to live among the trinitarians of the time not believing in the trinity. These were restrictions put on her by the culture and circumstances of the time. Polygamy for her was merciful and from God. While surviving on the frontier she was happy for the doctrine of polygamy which created a way for her to live in a loving community of people who looked out for one another and treated her honorably as a fellow Christian who followed His command to practice polygamy in order to take care of one another. She raised 4 more children on the frontier. Sometimes living in a fort for protection, and later a mud hut. She taught her children the Ten Commandments. She taught them to love God and love their neighbors. She was a devout Christian, a loving mother, and a true saint. She feared God and not the teachings or culture of humankind. She did not limit what God could command. She even saw and heard Brigham Young take on the voice of the prophet Joseph Smith as he spoke to the saints after the martyrdom. When we meet her in the next life I would like to ask her about these things.Unfortunately if many do not repent of twisting Jacob 2:27-30, wresting the scriptures, they will not be able to meet her. 😊 Alma 13:20
@@Esty120 you should know that you just made my day. 😂😇 I may be a little too zealous, I love the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and that He leads his apostles still today, and that He led them in Nephi’s time, Joseph Smith’s time, Brigham Young’s time, and Russel M. Nelson’s time. His apostles did what God asked them to do, they all made some mistakes, and still do, as humans. Still, we have to receive those who Christ has sent in order to receive Him. John chapter 15-17. Their job is to be United in the very same way that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are united. John 17:11. The restoration is true. God made a little one to become a thousand, and a small one a great nation! My poor little 3rd great grandmother has at least a thousand decendants. Her people are becoming a great “ nation” Isaiah 60:22. Best wishes for you. I’m happy to be what you describe as the most sanctimonious, and I hope you will some day see that as simply a diligent disciple of Christ and a member of His restored church. 😊😁😆☺️😊🙂
This was a great episode. I have much respect for Brian and Don and the work that they have done. There are no easy, cozy answers for such a complicated and uncomfortable subject. I’m grateful that this is not our test today.
I have binge-listened to this series over two days. It is very well done. My impression as I listened to their descriptions of Joseph and Emma’s struggles was that this was their Abrahamic test. They passed the test and will have glory poured out upon them. It’s so sad that so many of the opposition are failing at the much lighter test of simply believing the prophets.
That's fine... I've compared it to flat earth theory. One has to treat a lot of women as Brigham sycophants and willing to tarnish Joseph's character to make such a leap. The polygamy deniers in my experience also think that Brigham Young somehow conspired to have Joseph Smith Jr killed by his own in jail, not by the mob. 🤔🤦 There are far more problems in their desired narrative than the existing evidence holes the Apologetic narrative tries to paint over.
52:03 - I think the people that are worried are church office staff, which is why there has for decades been a push to “not worry about” regarding history. The internet changed everything.
The fact is, in the Book of Mormon polygamy is called the grosser crime and it is an abomination! It was an abomination in the days of the Book of Mormon, it was an abomination in the days of Joseph Smith, it is still an abomination today, and will continue to be an abomination tomorrow. Hewbrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
That is why Jacob 2:27-30 makes so much sense. He reserves the right to command as he wills even when making it clear to Jacob that he was not commanding polygamy at that time.
It's an abomination unless the Lord commands the prophet to live it. He was to call others to live it also. There are 4 reasons found in D&C 132 why the Lord called Joseph to restore this commandment or principle. See video 1 or 2 in this series. It's a good video series! Oh and polygamy is good if the Lord commands it, not good if men just take wives without having the Lord's approval.
@janeaustin6382 Polygamy is never good, or in other words, God has never called for polygamy. 132 contradicts the rest of the standard works. I'm sure 132 was not a revelation from God and did not come through Joseph Smith. Also, were in all of scripture other than D&C 132 has God called for polygamy?
@@RonkerRoom most likely when Lehi allowed it so the extra daughters of Lehi and Ishmael (quite plausibly more in number than each other’s sons) could marry somebody in their group instead of whoever was living in the vicinity of Nahom. Do you really think that Lehi and Nephi experimented with unsanctioned polygamy in their group? God allowed it for Lehi and Ishmael’s daughters in IMHO. Jacob is Nephi’s brother, brother. They didn’t start “ Hearkening to polygamy” ( which phrase does not make any sense whatsoever, “hearken” is a command and the noun polygamy has no way to give a command) suddenly upon the death of Nephi, and Nephi would not have allowed it. God had to have allowed polygamy for it to have started with the very people who followed the liahona. I think they practiced polygamy on the trip in a very similar way to Deuteronomy 25:5.
@@Kaydubbbb I disagree, there is a lot of speculation in your comment. The Book of Mormon is clear on the fact that Polygamy was an abomination. There is no such thing as God sanctioned polygamy. The Book of Mormon is clear as to who started polygamy among the Nephites: Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
Oh my gosh, right?? When he said it was unfair because "men can do it, women can't" that was really telling. As if any Christian woman or man would be bummed because they don't "get" to do polygamy instead of faithfully cleave to their spouse. Such a sad perspective. On Michelle's podcast, he said, "I don't like polygamy. Let me just say that it's unfair - men can do it, women can't...but if we want to think that God is fair all we have to do is look around... We can criticize God but that isn't going to do us any good.” That is the kind of distorted image of God that the polygamy narrative helps shape. Ugh!!
Just before Joseph and hyrum were killed by polygamist.. they had a church court scheduled for the purpose of excommunicating men in the church serving in high places.. can Brian tell me who those men were.. with all transparency.. as Joseph had excommunicated other men earlier.. remember the transparency that was spoken of right here on this show…??
yes, and Joseph was clear ( read the letter to the Relief Society ) for being insufficient in secrecy. The Temple oath is also clear on the secrecy issue.
Ooof should have left the COVID comparison out of it, bud. You are discussing a topic you are not an expert about and there is not any science or "mountains of evidence" backing it. People are not dying.
@EthPilot -I think it’s an excellent comparison. Your qualifications to comment that it can’t be compared to Covid? Have you worked in hospitals over the last 10 years? (To compare cause and path of disease and of death before and after?) Are you an epidemiologist?
Wow, we had two deaths in our neighborhood alone from COVID. I guess data when it contradicts what you want to believe gets thrown out the door. Thanks for proving Scott’s point.
Thanks for doing this series. You are putting the last nail in the coffin of polygamy acceptance. Hales' unlikeability complimented by your demonization of people who don't agree with you will drive more people away from what you believe is the truth. By Hales' own standards, he is not a historian. He has no academic credentials. He published books and nothing more. Keep up the good work. Keep using words like denial and bananas. You're hastening the work.
It’s shameful the way you two label polygamy deniers as conspiracy theorists that don’t care about the details. In my experience, those in this camp are much more versed in church history than your average member. Nobody in Nauvoo called this celestial plural marriage, Brian uses this term to support his idea of carefully worded denials. He is a self promoter that does exactly what he accuses others of doing. Spend time on his website and check the credibility of his sources, you’ll be amazed. His site also includes outright lies, such as the idea that future church leaders never taught that polygamy was essential for exaltation.
A little bit of research is indeed a bad thing. This topic is more complex then many give. Also it important to remember the revelations we have received and not forget about them in times of trial. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet and is busy doing the lords work on the other side of the veil.
Contemplate looking into all the evidence surrounding 132. Consider the problems and lies and false doctrines contained therein that contradict every other scripture.
A lot of research is a good thing! You should check into it. If it's wrong it's wrong. Truth is self evident and leaves many many clues. Don't be afraid. Truth is truth
Did I hear Dr Hales say that Emma was stubborn? Such awful comment considering it all. Not to discredit Dr Hales, there are other historians ex LDS and non LDS that also dig deep into topics, such as polygamy and other topics. The passive aggressive undertone of the podcast doesn’t appeal to me…and I am lds.
On my mission in Ohio, I listened to Joseph Smith the Prophet by Truman G Madsen on tape repeatedly. I also obtained a copy of Joseph Smith's Kirtland from Karl Rick's Anderson. I think both pointed to Joseph Smith's statement about Emma "I would go to hell for such a woman." It was presented out of time-line. I have a hard rime getting it nailed down. If that statement was made before the Angel with a flaming sword started showing up I might give polygamy status of Joseph's failed faith test to Emma. "Go pound sand I won't break my wife's heart- run me through now or go away" would give more credibility.
Exactly. It’s not even Hales work or ideas. They are Don Bradley’s. Hales just basically bankrolled it, put his name on it, and takes the credit for it.
Can someone explain Brian's argument for why polygamy actually made the population grow more? Ive gone back and relistened to that part 6 times and i can't figure out the through logic. Is it just because some people might not get married? Because it only takes 4 monogamous women to make up for one unmarried one.... Im willing to consider his reasoning, I just can't hear his reasoning
Wow. So hypocritical and condescending how you spoke about other historians. I find their research much more thorough than this. Have you even engaged with their evidence? The data isn’t there on your side but it actually is on theirs. You just saying their evidence isn’t good doesn’t work to refute anything.
That's exactly what I was gonna say🤣. These men need some attention from their wives. Seems they're not getting it at home. Meanwhile... I'm sending my daughters outside the church to date. I have raised clean, pure young women that I'm not going to encourage marriage in a religion that glorifies prostitution and calls it holy. Sacred se$× doesn't exist with multiple women in God's eyes. Brian Hales believes the church is in error and needs to bring polygamy back as well as these men here in scripture central.
@@TyleRMatin6532 watch 132 Problems with Mormon polygamy. The best compilation of evidence and proof polygamy is of the devil, no matter who is living it.
This movement of polygamy denying is dangerous in that it requires people to believe that Brigham Young was not a prophet, and that is heresy. As far as the principle of plural marriage goes, I am not a fan, but I have learned to appreciate what it accomplished. In those days there was hardly a bitter old spinsters in the church. Everyone had the option of marriage and family, even those who otherwise would not. It’s important to consider that a second wife was not anybody’s sweetheart. These were the fat, ugly chicks that would have been single forever without the institution of plural marriages. I think any man who can bring himself to accept a second wife, provide for her and her children, and treat her with care and tenderness should be understood to be some kind of hero. It’s not for me, but I can admire the magnanimous, benevolent nature of some people who are just much better than I am.
🤔I've listened to the Mormon Stories Podcast episodes Brian Hales did with John Dehlin years ago. Also, the year of polygamy podcast, & a number of videos and interviews done with Denver Snuffer. Denver appears to me to be the source of Joseph polygamy denial. It really goes off the rails, though, as the claim is made that Brigham Young ultimately conspired to have Joseph Smith Jr killed. I understand some of the problems they are trying to address in that incident. Ultimately I think the evidence points to Hyrum holding a small caliber pistol in his hand and he was the victim of his own negligent discharge. The current narrative on that is still too much like the Kennedy magic bullet trajectory theory. These points matter together because the reason for denial, and then blame on Brigham Young, is central to a claim that the Church quickly fell into Apostasy again under Brigham Young's leadership again. I might believe the Church's position on Joseph Smith's polygamy had he limited it to Eliza R Snow, Louisa Beaman, & Almera Woodward Johnson, along with Emma. The secular Jihaddist podcast taught that Islam's allowance of polygamy has a maximum limit of 4 wives. Joseph could have married these women, taught measured discretion, and there would be a far different discussion today. The volume of wives he collected and what it ultimately became under Brigham Young is why I've cross-referenced Alma 30 & D&C 132. Joseph's Angel with a flaming sword is no different from Korihors. The faith cross road question there then is what one is willing to do with believing Joseph Smith Jr not inspired in a polygamy restoration.
If an Angel threaten you with a sword.. you have to wonder what kind of material or metal could an angelic sword be composed of. ? Great program, my one critique, that is the music seems like children’s level tale. Piano chords might covey a more mature or sacred tone, given the topic.
I wonder why the angel with the sword never appeared to Emma or any of the other women that Joseph was pursuing - wouldn't that have ended all debate/controversy?
It appears based on most of the comments that everyone thinks they are an expert when in reality they know very little. I felt the author was very straight forward and fair.
Its sad that old men married young girls and there were young men to marry them..they had women come from other countries so they could marry them...they even moaned that the young ones were being taken before these missionaries got home...ugh...one young man was castrated by a bishop who wanted his young love.....i find that the sanitised version of it is whoever did it is not worthy of any church that God purports to follow Christ...there are many now who want to discount Josephs polygamy and why?? To make him look better....his magic rock in a hat does that alone...if the church had kept this practice ongoing...it would have destroyed itself...so thats why it ended...😢😢😢😢
Who instituted polygamy prior to Jacob who shut it down? Jacob the brother of Nephi shut down polygamy, but who instituted it? Do you think the first case of polygamy in the Book of Mormon was really the king who was after Nephi? More likely it was Lehi who allowed it so that the extra daughters of Ishmael, ( more than the sons of Lehi plus Zoram) and the extra daughters of Lehi (the two sons of Ishmael were married before Lehi’s exidus) could marry and raise up seed into the Lord. 1 Nephi 7:1
Some terrible takes on the topic of polygamy. It’s a rather snarky episode filled with sweeping statements not substantiated by evidence. It’s a pity Hales nasty shots toward people like Michelle Stone are published on these platforms. It degraded the entire channel.
Do you believe hyrum smith when in his talks he very publicly stated and clearly said that polygamy was an evil practice…. The integrity of this host along with the guest.. has a very nasty internal misleading intentions.. and uneducated accusations..
Looks like a group of people decided to tag team this one...hilarious. I assure you this guy in conjunction with Fun Bradley knows more about this topic than any posting here. Give him some grace like Jesus would to try to explain what he has learned. Polygamy was present in the Bible. Abraham. Jacob. The Bible you have now exists because of Polygamy. Joseph, sold into Egypt saves the house and family of Israel. They continue to write off their dealing with God and Jesus the offspring of Judah is just one of the results. This that see Joseph as almost a God and in some times pray to him have to whitewash his history to make him more Godly. He wasn't a God. Just a man that followed what he was asked to do. All those commenting here have done little to match him and the venom wasted on Brian in your comments reveals what is inside your hearts.
Yes, clearly polygamy and concubinage was practiced in Bible times, but was it from God? Not at all it had become a cultural practice. Have you studied what covenant Abraham was making when he sent Sarai's handmade and the boy Ishmael away? It is everything! Once this covenant was made, Isacc followed too. Jacob was intending on following until he was coersed to have Leah first, etc. Eventually he made the same covenant and understood. All the House of Israel will be blessed by repentance when fully embracing the truth of a marriage covenant. Brigham and Heber thought they knew better than Joseph all from what they thought the Bible said. They obviously didn't take much head into listening to Joseph or reading the Book of Mormon. As we know Brigham says himself he was a yanky guesser. He didn't even know the Bible well at all. God will personally let each of us know if we are covenanted to Him. Please truly read the scriptures and pray.
@Heartsinmelody Everything under the sun is described in the Bible and many things are not. I believe Jacob was the spiritual leader of Gods people. You could say Gods conduit/ prophet on earth during that time. It is impossible to write down the entirety of revelation given to just one person. He practiced polygamous to have his family. You can deny it but it is still true. I say God told him to multiply and replenish. He did. You presume to put limits on Gods actions because your ways and thoughts are not his. After we're dead we will learn many things God did that will change our view. History is not nice and neat. Tamar?
@@mascotbenches5146 right, but the fact remains Jacob 2 verse 30 is not a polygamy loop hole. It’s been misread to fit the narrative. D&C 132, sure, we have polygamy - but it’s not in the BOM. It’s an error of interpretation. Even Don Bradley now agrees.
He also ignores so many true statements by other prophets and apostles including an official statement by the first presidency that described the curse upon the "negro" as being a curse of blackness as well as a priesthood ban an attributes this to behavior in the pre-mortal life! Also, believe it or not, he also ignores what is taught in our own LDS scriptures from the books of Abraham and Moses which clearly mention the curse of black ess as well as the priesthood ban on the descendants of Ham!!! It is so dumb from a supposed PhD that I couldn't hardly believe what I was reading when I saw it! Continued...
Dr. Hales, whether you are an official historian or not, it doesn't matter much to me because you have done some great work here! I have studied theology and Mormon doctrine for more than 60 years and I am very impressed with your unbiased research!! When I compare your work to the very biased work of Dr. Reeves with his stupid Race and the priesthood essay, it's like night and day!! He cherry picks scripture and cherry picks statements that seems to support his views and ignores so many that contradict his stupid conclusion! He ignores the statement by Joseph Smith that states: "The curse is not yet taken from the sons of Canaan, neither will it be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come." Continued...
There are a lot of stupid ignorant comments here and do many that I can't address them all! One stated that the Book of Mormon states that polygamy is an abomination?!? It wasn't the polygamy, it was the overuse of the privilege that God gave them through his prophet(s)! You should read further where In the very same chapter God states that if He would raise up seed to Him, He would command so, but otherwise heed this (have just one wife)!!!
Haha that’s not what it says! How about get you a KJV dictionary to understand the usage of “shall”. Then in context see what is referenced as the “things”. Nobody in Smith’s time, either Mormon or not, read this to mean some kind of exception.
You don’t know the BOM - Jacob 2 does nothing but condemn polygamy. 2: 30 is not a loophole. The claim to polygamy rests with sec 132, the BOM is not a text that can be used.
@@Dont-Be-Abi-Yussif I am amazed that people can misinterpret so far as to ignore the meaning of “otherwise” following God’s statement that He retains the right to command his people. The use of the word “otherwise” means that what He may command at His will is different than the command for them to “ hearken unto these things”and the fact that God is commanding His people to “ Hearken into these things” in reference to God’s commandments given in the same literary masterpiece in Jacob 2:27-30. It makes no sense to stretch the meaning of “these things” to extend beyond the immediate vicinity of where it is used in literature. People are even replacing the meaning of “shall” with the meanings of might, or may or would. However, in the context of the Lord speaking to Jacob, “they shall hearken unto these things” is a command to God’s people to be monogamous. People are trying to sidestep grammar and basic English, otherwise we would agree that God reserves the right to make commandments for the purpose of raising seed unto Himself. He states that purpose for Lehi’s family in 1 Nephi 7:1, just about the time He gave Lehi instructions to go get Ishmael. Do you think the sons of Ishmael and the daughters of Lehi, and the sons of Lehi plus Zoram matched up with the daughters of Ishmael perfectly? A small isolated group in the middle of nowhere with the command to raise up seed that very plausibly has more daughters than sons is enough of a reason for God to sanction polygamy to not have barren aunts who could have become righteous mothers in their healthiest child bearing years while traveling to the promised land for almost a decade. God’s intent was to grow a righteous nation in the promised land. Plurality of wives was sanctioned during the life of 1 Nephi, and no longer sanctioned after his little brother’s speech in Jacob 2 since they were past the necessity. Verse 34 even says that the same commandment given by Jacob, was given by Lehi. Lehi was inspired as he was told the exception, and Jacob was inspired as he was told that the exception was over. Best wishes sorting out the very plausible need for God to sanction polygamy in Lehi’s time
@@Kaydubbbb otherwise what? They shall hearken unto these things. What things? In the 19th century, every Mormon and non Mormon read this the same way. Polygamy was forbidden without exception. Hyrum Smith used this chapter to proclaim monogamy a perpetual principle. Where was any contemporary pushback of YOUR interpretation of “otherwise”? There wasn’t any whatsoever. Find me one single source other than Orson Pratt’s (which isn’t contemporary so it doesn’t count anyway). There are NUMEROUS critiques published about the Book of Mormon at the time by authors, lawyers, writers, etc. - all native speakers of 19th century English - and NONE of them interpreted there to be a loophole.
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My perception is that there is enough uncertainty, vagueness and contradictory information that people on both side prioritize certain information over other information. I think Brian's comments on the "denial" fall into this bucket - both manipulating debatable content. As you noted, Joseph clearly stated "I can only find one wife" in his denial - unrelated to spiritual wifery. Seems that Brian is applying his conclusions to how he interprets - just like the other side is accused
Brian - I know you have read all that statements Brigham made about Emma - for you to call that "words between Brigham and Emma" - seems to be just the reduction/minimizing commentary that those who don't agree use.
D&C 132 outlines the guidelines for this program -if one takes up to 10 virgins, they do not commit adultery. Brigham and Heber C took on many more than 10 - and they were not all virgins. So, are we saying polygamy was from God, but men committed adultery by not complying with the revelation?
I love how Brian tries to diminish the polygamy denier argument by saying they are not historians while at the same time claiming he is the lds expert on polygamy even though he’s not a historian.
Justin you are not a historian and you are not a ballistic expert. In fact, the Country’s best ballistic and Forensic expert concluded based off of the evidence and all of the facts that the mob killed Joseph and Hyrum.
Yes he humbly admits he’s not a trained historian which is why he paid a trained historian to collect mounds of data and compiled the most extensive collection of historical data on the subject that has become a tremendous resource for many professional historians.
@@jerry_phillipsdo you agree with that paid historian, Don Bradley, that Jacob 2:30 is against polygamy?
@@justin-griffin I know Don’ Bradley’s position on Jacob 2:30 and I agree the God’s standard is monogamy. I don’t however agree with the Michelle Stone twisted interpretation. I believe occasionally God has commanded plural marriage.
@@jerry_phillipsdo you have any examples of God ever specifically giving someone a command to practice polygamy in the entire cannon of scriptures?
I simply have two major questions regarding polygamy:
1- What does polygamy have anything to do with Jesus Christ, his atonement and coming unto Him?
2- If polygamy, despite its challenges as you've mentioned here, is, as Dr. Hales teaches, a divinely mandated aspect of Mormonism and its history, why has it not been researched and taught through The Church to this same degree by the authorized Church History Department and presented at General Conference by Prophets, Seers and Revelators?
Great questions! To point 1, I do see how polygamy is tied to the core gospel principle of "what does an eternal family really look like" - and I think for many polygamous wives, it is not joyous. Wish we all had the answer to question 2!!!!
@@Esty120 hello pot calling the kettle black. Pride is such a hard thing for everyone to overcome and you are criticizing the scriptures. Jacob 2:27-30 gives clear instructions that God can command polygamy to raise up seed unto Him, other wise His people shall Hearken unto His command to be monogamous. The other explanations don’t seem to make sense of the use of the word “otherwise”, nor do they refer to the use of “these things” within context of Jacob 2:27-30. The church teaches that polygamy was commanded for a time and then it wasn’t. See Official Declaration 1 at the end of the D&C.
@@Esty120 there is no “loophole” because God does not make loopholes, He simply claims his right to command his people as He wills. That is not a “loophole” as if sneaky people needed a reason to be wicked. Keeping Gods commandments is always counted as righteousness. Like when Abraham sacrificed Isaac, and when Nephi killed Laban, and when Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.
@@Kaydubbbb If you do an analysis of the way the scripture is structured, it's not saying God will command his people to be polygamists. The previous example of "these things" is referring to the wicked practices the people are supposed to be avoiding. It can't just be flipped around in the middle of the sermon. Even Don Bradley, the church's paid historian, admits as much.
@@rowleskids if that is the case, Don Bradly is wrong. Please send the quote of his you are referencing. There are many ways to analyze Jacob 2:30. Here are a few:
Every time the phrase “these things”is used it refers to something immediately preceding it that the author is referencing. Jacob uses it many times. 2:14,24;4:4,7,12,13 all show Jacob referencing statements which Jacob has just made and it is easy to tell what is being referenced because they are in the immediate vicinity preceding “ these things” or “this thing” in the literature. It is a similar pattern for every one of the uses of “these things”, or “this thing” In Jacob 2:27-30, Jacob is quoting the Lord, and “they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command by God that references the commands just stated in the immediate vicinity and on the same subject, and translated from the same Hebrew paragraph where Jacob starts it off by saying “ Hearken to the word of the Lord” and finishes the paragraph/chiasmus with “hearken unto these things” We can’t read verse 30 and ignore that the phrase “they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command and also stretch the reference clear back to verse 24, where the use of “ this thing” is not a command, and not even plural, and say that what “this thing” in verse 24 is referencing is the same “thing” as what “they shall Hearken unto these things” is referencing in verse 30. Clearly there are three more related commands more immediately preceding verse 30 than what is
referenced in verse 24. They are: “This people shall keep my commandments”, “concubines he shall have none”, and “there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife” These commands are what is referenced by “they shall Hearken unto these things” in verse 30.
The word “shall” and the words “shalt not” are always either commands, asking for a command to be given, or declarations of what God or someone will make happen, or what someone should do. For example “ Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.” And “Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.”, and “As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me” and “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?” In the last case shall was used to frame the question meaning “what should they do?” Analysis should recognize that in verse 30, the words “ they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command, and on top of that, it is preceded by the word “otherwise”. Yes the word otherwise is related to Gods exception made just prior to it. One cannot simply ignore the word otherwise. It has a meaning and use in our language, some people change the meaning or ignore the word “ otherwise”, otherwise we would all agree that God reserved the right to direct His people differently than the three commands to be monogamous mentioned in verse 27.
One cannot replace “shall”, the command with “will” or “might” or “would” in making interpretations of the scripture to mean people would fall away and hearken unto polygamy if they did not obey Gods commands. That doesn’t even make grammatical sense. Words have to mean what they say and grammar has to make sense. Polygamy is not an entity which can give a command to be hearkened unto. God is giving the command “they shall hearken unto these things” in verse 30. God commanding His people is not the same thing as people choosing to obey God. He respects agency. God does not say “ if they do not obey my commands, they shall become wicked” because God does not command people to be wicked. There are more ways to analyze this, but I think I’m out of room.
The Lord teaches us truth and he told me that Joseph didn’t practice polygamy. Not even something I was looking for. But as I research, Joseph only ever preached against polygamy. It is an abomination. It’s actually more uncomfortable to go against the narrative so it’s not that people want to just not believe Covid or polygamy because it makes them uncomfortable! All things will come to light so no need to worry, just seek truth from God.
The spirit told me the same thing over 10 years ago. Joseph didn’t practice polygamy. It’s just in the past year I have read that Joseph preached against polygamy. Confirmed what the spirit told me years ago.
The lord didn’t tell you that as many who were there and lived the practice said they did and that they were married to him(I.e Eliza R Snow).
How do you know it was from the Lord this revelation of yours? Do you have the keys of revelation for the whole world? Does your revelation stand up to the many eyewitnesses who testified otherwise? Is your revelation in unity with the apostles, who must be received in order to receive Christ? ( John 17)
It was Satan's lying spirit!!!
ruclips.net/video/wv8uvl4Rzyk/видео.htmlsi=wm_zHgVCJFKfcA5k
Joseph denied it. Is he a conspirator against himself? 15:13
ruclips.net/video/wv8uvl4Rzyk/видео.htmlsi=wm_zHgVCJFKfcA5k
Can they explain Brigham’s polygamy, and why it was so different than the way this podcast described Joseph’s polygamy? Can Brian explain why Jacob 2:24 condemned polygamy, and also condemned king David & king Solomon’s polygamy by God saying that it was an abomination, but then there’s an opposite of opinion Jacob 2:24 in section 132? It’s very contradictory!
Jacob 2:24 “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.”
One needs to finish the Statement by JACOB!
11:35 Brian claims God COMMANDED it. Where in scripture has He EVER commanded the abomination of condemning families?
Probably polygamy was commanded when God commanded Lehi’s daughters to marry Ishmael’s married sons. See 1Nephi 7:1, and 16:7.
@@Kaydubbbb Never once does it say to marry multiple women. In the latter verse, it specifies single wives twice. Choosing a wife from among a group of women does not mean choose a group of women.
@@amybaker1880 please tell me the verse that specifies single wives? 1Nephi 7:1 says “sons should take daughters to wife”. 1Nephi 16:7 says Nephi’s brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife. Ishmael was old and only had two sons who were already married when they started the trip. Who did Nephi’s sisters (2 Nephi 5:6) marry? Not Zoram, at least not monogamously. Who else was there for Nephi’s sisters to marry on the ten year exodus in their prime birthing years when the Lord had commanded Lehi’s people to raise up seed unto Him?
@@Kaydubbbb I notice you skipped "took one of the daughters" and "took the eldest" out of your quote. It's removing scripture to fit your desire. Who is your God? Mine says not to add or take away.
@@amybaker1880 I’m sure. Do you want me to post the entire chapters? Whole verses seems a bit much as well. Yes Zoram married the eldest daughter. That does not mean that Zoram did not also marry one of Ishmael’s granddaughters or Nephi’s sisters. That doesn’t mean that the Book of Mormon says anywhere that each son married only one daughter and any daughters of Lehi that outnumbered the unmarried sons of Ishmael (who were both already married before the exodus) remained barren and did not help “ raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise” The daughters of the prophet Lehi willing and able to have children but unable due to God neglecting to make an accommodation for them would truly be a tragedy. God did not do that. A prime directive of the exodus was to raise up seed. That commandment is more important than monogamy rules enforced by modern day Pharisees. My God is my Father in Heaven. His Son is the Lord Jesus Christ, the one who is in perfect unity with the Father, who commanded Lehi to allow all of his children to righteously fulfill the commandment in Genesis 1:28 by having daughters marry men who were already married when there was no other choice to raise up seed. My Lord commanded brothers in law of their widowed sisters in law to marry their brother’s widows in Deuteronomy 25:5. So that His believing daughters did not have to marry gentiles to survive. You left out 2 Samuel 12:8. Are being selective here? God Gave wives to David. The entire house of Israel came from a polygamist family. My God is the one who allows people to keep one of His most prime directives for Him by allowing outnumbered men at His will and direction, to marry more than one woman, for the sake of raising up seed and creating a nation. My God commands His people to fulfill His prophecies like Isaiah 60:22 “A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time” Nephi’s sisters weren’t waiting for a decade long journey, missing their prime reproductive years in the process, to be married to the natives once they showed up in the land of promise. They were the little ones who became a thousand, and the small ones who became a great nation. Just like Joseph Smith and all the early saints who righteously practiced polygamy. They all have thousands of descendants today. A great nation of people are here because of them.
To be honest the way Dr. Hales presents this, it really sounds like Joseph Smith's polygamy didn’t follow D&C 132 at all.
Because Brian Hales jumps through 100 hula hoops to try to make it work.
Polygamy, especially as practiced by the LDS, couldn’t be from god
He's a medical doctor, not a credentialed historian.
@@bigfattrolllordcorrect, he’s an amateur historian.
So is Michelle and all the other people he criticizes and disparages. @@Heartsinmelody
@@Heartsinmelody He’s a paid apologist writing about church history. I guess that’s above amateur historian but closer to propagandist.
This is not professional historical evidence. It’s a manipulation of truth based on altered contemporary source material and claims made decades later. Study contemporaneous source material in its unaltered state to find the truth that Joseph was not threatened by an angel and he did not lie for the Lord and in fact, he didn’t teach or practice polygamy but fought it along with Hyrum who was co-president of the church. They were martyred for fighting polygamy. Polygamy originated with Brigham Young who himself claimed this. Also the judge in the Temple Lot Case ruled that polygamy did not originate with Joseph. There are dozens of speeches by Joseph and Hyrum condemning polygamy. Section 101 refuted polygamy and was later removed when Section 132 was added. What if Joseph was innocent and telling the truth? I believe he was and was martyred for it, but not by the mob. By those much closer, practicing it in secret combination. To avoid legal repercussions the Utah church later lied about Joseph starting polygamy claiming it was an original tenet of the church. But in a court of law, as I previously stated, that was found false. Consider the possibility that Joseph told the truth, something a true prophet would do, and the reasons that the historical narrative presented here sounds so murky is because it’s not true. The narrative being presented here is historical malpractice. Seek the truth and you’ll find it.
ruclips.net/video/wv8uvl4Rzyk/видео.htmlsi=wm_zHgVCJFKfcA5k
It doesn't make any difference that he's a physician. Why introduce him like that makes him more of an expert?
I appreciate that introduction, as it points out that he is not a historian and to take his points with that in mind.
He hired a credible historian to do the research. You need to listen more carefully.
@@davidrawlings1176 I have listened. Did you know that the professional historian he hired said in a podcast that he gave Brian Hales a ton of information both for and against polygamy and he cherry picked the ones that suited him and ignored the rest?
Hales is as much of an expert on polygamy as bill gates is on public health 😂
Why does God, who is the just, merciful, kind, compassionate, empathetic character require heartbreaking painful, unequal marriage restrictions and requirements in this life? We must be faithful to then understand why we endured or to wait and finally have it all sorted out. It’s quite a conundrum maintaining belief when it looks bad in the past, feels bad in the practice of it today, and to think of the practice of it in heaven is disheartening at the least, anxiety producing at the worst. But God is love.😢💔
My third great grandmother was not committing adultery when she was a widow with an eighteen month old baby boy and she married a polygamist for religious reasons and cooperative survival. She did better than survive, she raised 4 more children on the frontier. Her people were evicted from the USA after the Calvinist pharisees of the 1840s (protestant Christians) created so much opposition which included all kinds of horrible unmentionable things done to the saints and their women which the calvinists had been committing for centuries to those who don’t comply to their beliefs. Unable to own land legally, unable to survive on her own on the frontier. Unable to own a business legally. Unable to live among the trinitarians of the time not believing in the trinity. These were restrictions put on her by the culture and circumstances of the time. Polygamy for her was merciful and from God. While surviving on the frontier she was happy for the doctrine of polygamy which created a way for her to live in a loving community of people who looked out for one another and treated her honorably as a fellow Christian who followed His command to practice polygamy in order to take care of one another. She raised 4 more children on the frontier. Sometimes living in a fort for protection, and later a mud hut. She taught her children the Ten Commandments. She taught them to love God and love their neighbors. She was a devout Christian, a loving mother, and a true saint. She feared God and not the teachings or culture of humankind. She did not limit what God could command. She even saw and heard Brigham Young take on the voice of the prophet Joseph Smith as he spoke to the saints after the martyrdom. When we meet her in the next life I would like to ask her about these things.Unfortunately if many do not repent of twisting Jacob 2:27-30, wresting the scriptures, they will not be able to meet her. 😊 Alma 13:20
@@Esty120 you should know that you just made my day. 😂😇 I may be a little too zealous, I love the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and that He leads his apostles still today, and that He led them in Nephi’s time, Joseph Smith’s time, Brigham Young’s time, and Russel M. Nelson’s time. His apostles did what God asked them to do, they all made some mistakes, and still do, as humans. Still, we have to receive those who Christ has sent in order to receive Him. John chapter 15-17. Their job is to be United in the very same way that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are united. John 17:11. The restoration is true. God made a little one to become a thousand, and a small one a great nation! My poor little 3rd great grandmother has at least a thousand decendants. Her people are becoming a great “ nation” Isaiah 60:22. Best wishes for you. I’m happy to be what you describe as the most sanctimonious, and I hope you will some day see that as simply a diligent disciple of Christ and a member of His restored church. 😊😁😆☺️😊🙂
This was a great episode. I have much respect for Brian and Don and the work that they have done. There are no easy, cozy answers for such a complicated and uncomfortable subject. I’m grateful that this is not our test today.
I have binge-listened to this series over two days. It is very well done. My impression as I listened to their descriptions of Joseph and Emma’s struggles was that this was their Abrahamic test. They passed the test and will have glory poured out upon them. It’s so sad that so many of the opposition are failing at the much lighter test of simply believing the prophets.
The Covid comparison was not helpful and almost more divisive than the polygamy!
That's fine... I've compared it to flat earth theory. One has to treat a lot of women as Brigham sycophants and willing to tarnish Joseph's character to make such a leap. The polygamy deniers in my experience also think that Brigham Young somehow conspired to have Joseph Smith Jr killed by his own in jail, not by the mob. 🤔🤦 There are far more problems in their desired narrative than the existing evidence holes the Apologetic narrative tries to paint over.
52:03 - I think the people that are worried are church office staff, which is why there has for decades been a push to “not worry about” regarding history. The internet changed everything.
The fact is, in the Book of Mormon polygamy is called the grosser crime and it is an abomination! It was an abomination in the days of the Book of Mormon, it was an abomination in the days of Joseph Smith, it is still an abomination today, and will continue to be an abomination tomorrow.
Hewbrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
That is why Jacob 2:27-30 makes so much sense. He reserves the right to command as he wills even when making it clear to Jacob that he was not commanding polygamy at that time.
It's an abomination unless the Lord commands the prophet to live it. He was to call others to live it also. There are 4 reasons found in D&C 132 why the Lord called Joseph to restore this commandment or principle. See video 1 or 2 in this series. It's a good video series! Oh and polygamy is good if the Lord commands it, not good if men just take wives without having the Lord's approval.
@janeaustin6382 Polygamy is never good, or in other words, God has never called for polygamy. 132 contradicts the rest of the standard works. I'm sure 132 was not a revelation from God and did not come through Joseph Smith.
Also, were in all of scripture other than D&C 132 has God called for polygamy?
@@RonkerRoom most likely when Lehi allowed it so the extra daughters of Lehi and Ishmael (quite plausibly more in number than each other’s sons) could marry somebody in their group instead of whoever was living in the vicinity of Nahom. Do you really think that Lehi and Nephi experimented with unsanctioned polygamy in their group? God allowed it for Lehi and Ishmael’s daughters in IMHO. Jacob is Nephi’s brother, brother. They didn’t start “ Hearkening to polygamy” ( which phrase does not make any sense whatsoever, “hearken” is a command and the noun polygamy has no way to give a command) suddenly upon the death of Nephi, and Nephi would not have allowed it. God had to have allowed polygamy for it to have started with the very people who followed the liahona. I think they practiced polygamy on the trip in a very similar way to Deuteronomy 25:5.
@@Kaydubbbb I disagree, there is a lot of speculation in your comment. The Book of Mormon is clear on the fact that Polygamy was an abomination. There is no such thing as God sanctioned polygamy.
The Book of Mormon is clear as to who started polygamy among the Nephites: Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
9:13 Not unfair. Unrighteous is more like it.
Oh my gosh, right?? When he said it was unfair because "men can do it, women can't" that was really telling. As if any Christian woman or man would be bummed because they don't "get" to do polygamy instead of faithfully cleave to their spouse. Such a sad perspective.
On Michelle's podcast, he said, "I don't like polygamy. Let me just say that it's unfair - men can do it, women can't...but if we want to think that God is fair all we have to do is look around... We can criticize God but that isn't going to do us any good.” That is the kind of distorted image of God that the polygamy narrative helps shape. Ugh!!
@@karenhyatt647 Brigham Jr
Just before Joseph and hyrum were killed by polygamist.. they had a church court scheduled for the purpose of excommunicating men in the church serving in high places.. can Brian tell me who those men were.. with all transparency.. as Joseph had excommunicated other men earlier.. remember the transparency that was spoken of right here on this show…??
yes, and Joseph was clear ( read the letter to the Relief Society ) for being insufficient in secrecy. The Temple oath is also clear on the secrecy issue.
Ooof should have left the COVID comparison out of it, bud. You are discussing a topic you are not an expert about and there is not any science or "mountains of evidence" backing it. People are not dying.
Agree 100% big mistake.
@EthPilot -I think it’s an excellent comparison. Your qualifications to comment that it can’t be compared to Covid? Have you worked in hospitals over the last 10 years? (To compare cause and path of disease and of death before and after?) Are you an epidemiologist?
Wow, we had two deaths in our neighborhood alone from COVID. I guess data when it contradicts what you want to believe gets thrown out the door. Thanks for proving Scott’s point.
I just ordered volume 1 of Dr hales series!
Aprendí mucho y gracias por toda la información.
Thanks for doing this series. You are putting the last nail in the coffin of polygamy acceptance. Hales' unlikeability complimented by your demonization of people who don't agree with you will drive more people away from what you believe is the truth. By Hales' own standards, he is not a historian. He has no academic credentials. He published books and nothing more. Keep up the good work. Keep using words like denial and bananas. You're hastening the work.
It’s shameful the way you two label polygamy deniers as conspiracy theorists that don’t care about the details. In my experience, those in this camp are much more versed in church history than your average member. Nobody in Nauvoo called this celestial plural marriage, Brian uses this term to support his idea of carefully worded denials. He is a self promoter that does exactly what he accuses others of doing. Spend time on his website and check the credibility of his sources, you’ll be amazed. His site also includes outright lies, such as the idea that future church leaders never taught that polygamy was essential for exaltation.
A little bit of research is indeed a bad thing. This topic is more complex then many give. Also it important to remember the revelations we have received and not forget about them in times of trial. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet and is busy doing the lords work on the other side of the veil.
Contemplate looking into all the evidence surrounding 132. Consider the problems and lies and false doctrines contained therein that contradict every other scripture.
A lot of research is a good thing! You should check into it. If it's wrong it's wrong. Truth is self evident and leaves many many clues. Don't be afraid. Truth is truth
Spin doctor!!
Escuche a Dr Hales en otra entrevista,me cinvencio que Jose nunca dio ni enseño ni practico tal doctrina
Did I hear Dr Hales say that Emma was stubborn? Such awful comment considering it all. Not to discredit Dr Hales, there are other historians ex LDS and non LDS that also dig deep into topics, such as polygamy and other topics. The passive aggressive undertone of the podcast doesn’t appeal to me…and I am lds.
How do you document conjugality?
In the case of Pattie Sessions and David Sessions, were Pattie and David sealed or just married when Joseph asked Pattie?
Might as well call him Brian Gates. The Bill Gates of the church.
On my mission in Ohio, I listened to Joseph Smith the Prophet by Truman G Madsen on tape repeatedly. I also obtained a copy of Joseph Smith's Kirtland from Karl Rick's Anderson. I think both pointed to Joseph Smith's statement about Emma "I would go to hell for such a woman." It was presented out of time-line. I have a hard rime getting it nailed down. If that statement was made before the Angel with a flaming sword started showing up I might give polygamy status of Joseph's failed faith test to Emma. "Go pound sand I won't break my wife's heart- run me through now or go away" would give more credibility.
He hired a historian to do the research. That historian has also authored books.
Exactly. It’s not even Hales work or ideas. They are Don Bradley’s. Hales just basically bankrolled it, put his name on it, and takes the credit for it.
Whoever decided to put that horrible music all throughout the episode should be fired! 😂
Can someone explain Brian's argument for why polygamy actually made the population grow more? Ive gone back and relistened to that part 6 times and i can't figure out the through logic. Is it just because some people might not get married? Because it only takes 4 monogamous women to make up for one unmarried one.... Im willing to consider his reasoning, I just can't hear his reasoning
Wow. So hypocritical and condescending how you spoke about other historians. I find their research much more thorough than this. Have you even engaged with their evidence? The data isn’t there on your side but it actually is on theirs. You just saying their evidence isn’t good doesn’t work to refute anything.
Gag! Lies. Oh the twisted web you weave.....
Prove them lies don’t just state it like you did something important
That's exactly what I was gonna say🤣. These men need some attention from their wives. Seems they're not getting it at home. Meanwhile... I'm sending my daughters outside the church to date. I have raised clean, pure young women that I'm not going to encourage marriage in a religion that glorifies prostitution and calls it holy. Sacred se$× doesn't exist with multiple women in God's eyes. Brian Hales believes the church is in error and needs to bring polygamy back as well as these men here in scripture central.
ruclips.net/video/1WXFFYd6mXA/видео.htmlsi=QnZTcoutmoUjzMwh @@TyleRMatin6532
@@TyleRMatin6532 watch 132 Problems with Mormon polygamy. The best compilation of evidence and proof polygamy is of the devil, no matter who is living it.
This movement of polygamy denying is dangerous in that it requires people to believe that Brigham Young was not a prophet, and that is heresy. As far as the principle of plural marriage goes, I am not a fan, but I have learned to appreciate what it accomplished. In those days there was hardly a bitter old spinsters in the church. Everyone had the option of marriage and family, even those who otherwise would not. It’s important to consider that a second wife was not anybody’s sweetheart. These were the fat, ugly chicks that would have been single forever without the institution of plural marriages. I think any man who can bring himself to accept a second wife, provide for her and her children, and treat her with care and tenderness should be understood to be some kind of hero. It’s not for me, but I can admire the magnanimous, benevolent nature of some people who are just much better than I am.
ooh this is so cringe.
🤔I've listened to the Mormon Stories Podcast episodes Brian Hales did with John Dehlin years ago. Also, the year of polygamy podcast, & a number of videos and interviews done with Denver Snuffer. Denver appears to me to be the source of Joseph polygamy denial. It really goes off the rails, though, as the claim is made that Brigham Young ultimately conspired to have Joseph Smith Jr killed. I understand some of the problems they are trying to address in that incident. Ultimately I think the evidence points to Hyrum holding a small caliber pistol in his hand and he was the victim of his own negligent discharge. The current narrative on that is still too much like the Kennedy magic bullet trajectory theory. These points matter together because the reason for denial, and then blame on Brigham Young, is central to a claim that the Church quickly fell into Apostasy again under Brigham Young's leadership again.
I might believe the Church's position on Joseph Smith's polygamy had he limited it to Eliza R Snow, Louisa Beaman, & Almera Woodward Johnson, along with Emma. The secular Jihaddist podcast taught that Islam's allowance of polygamy has a maximum limit of 4 wives. Joseph could have married these women, taught measured discretion, and there would be a far different discussion today.
The volume of wives he collected and what it ultimately became under Brigham Young is why I've cross-referenced Alma 30 & D&C 132. Joseph's Angel with a flaming sword is no different from Korihors. The faith cross road question there then is what one is willing to do with believing Joseph Smith Jr not inspired in a polygamy restoration.
If an Angel threaten you with a sword.. you have to wonder what kind of material or metal could an angelic sword be composed of. ?
Great program, my one critique, that is the music seems like children’s level tale. Piano chords might covey a more mature or sacred tone, given the topic.
I wonder why the angel with the sword never appeared to Emma or any of the other women that Joseph was pursuing - wouldn't that have ended all debate/controversy?
I think we know the answer.
“Sword” must have been a typo, for “Word”.
Excellent series. Thanks so much
It appears based on most of the comments that everyone thinks they are an expert when in reality they know very little. I felt the author was very straight forward and fair.
Its sad that old men married young girls and there were young men to marry them..they had women come from other countries so they could marry them...they even moaned that the young ones were being taken before these missionaries got home...ugh...one young man was castrated by a bishop who wanted his young love.....i find that the sanitised version of it is whoever did it is not worthy of any church that God purports to follow Christ...there are many now who want to discount Josephs polygamy and why?? To make him look better....his magic rock in a hat does that alone...if the church had kept this practice ongoing...it would have destroyed itself...so thats why it ended...😢😢😢😢
Brigham Young was the modern day King Noah, see Mosiah 11. Joseph never practiced polygamy! Wake up!
Who instituted polygamy prior to Jacob who shut it down? Jacob the brother of Nephi shut down polygamy, but who instituted it? Do you think the first case of polygamy in the Book of Mormon was really the king who was after Nephi? More likely it was Lehi who allowed it so that the extra daughters of Ishmael, ( more than the sons of Lehi plus Zoram) and the extra daughters of Lehi (the two sons of Ishmael were married before Lehi’s exidus) could marry and raise up seed into the Lord. 1 Nephi 7:1
It sounds like you would deny the Holocaust of WW2 as well?
ruclips.net/video/wv8uvl4Rzyk/видео.htmlsi=wm_zHgVCJFKfcA5k
Some terrible takes on the topic of polygamy. It’s a rather snarky episode filled with sweeping statements not substantiated by evidence.
It’s a pity Hales nasty shots toward people like Michelle Stone are published on these platforms. It degraded the entire channel.
👍
You have NO BUSINESS WRITING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT. YOU OBVIOUSLY DO NOT KNOW GOD!!!
Brian Hales is a treasure!
Of shit
The kind cats bury in the litter box.
Do you believe hyrum smith when in his talks he very publicly stated and clearly said that polygamy was an evil practice…. The integrity of this host along with the guest.. has a very nasty internal misleading intentions.. and uneducated accusations..
Brian Hales is oilier than the propofol he uses.
😂😂
Looks like a group of people decided to tag team this one...hilarious. I assure you this guy in conjunction with Fun Bradley knows more about this topic than any posting here. Give him some grace like Jesus would to try to explain what he has learned.
Polygamy was present in the Bible. Abraham. Jacob. The Bible you have now exists because of Polygamy. Joseph, sold into Egypt saves the house and family of Israel. They continue to write off their dealing with God and Jesus the offspring of Judah is just one of the results.
This that see Joseph as almost a God and in some times pray to him have to whitewash his history to make him more Godly. He wasn't a God. Just a man that followed what he was asked to do. All those commenting here have done little to match him and the venom wasted on Brian in your comments reveals what is inside your hearts.
Yes, clearly polygamy and concubinage was practiced in Bible times, but was it from God? Not at all it had become a cultural practice. Have you studied what covenant Abraham was making when he sent Sarai's handmade and the boy Ishmael away? It is everything! Once this covenant was made, Isacc followed too. Jacob was intending on following until he was coersed to have Leah first, etc. Eventually he made the same covenant and understood. All the House of Israel will be blessed by repentance when fully embracing the truth of a marriage covenant. Brigham and Heber thought they knew better than Joseph all from what they thought the Bible said. They obviously didn't take much head into listening to Joseph or reading the Book of Mormon. As we know Brigham says himself he was a yanky guesser. He didn't even know the Bible well at all. God will personally let each of us know if we are covenanted to Him. Please truly read the scriptures and pray.
Murder is also described in the Bible. Just because it’s described does not mean it’s prescribed or commanded by god
@Heartsinmelody Everything under the sun is described in the Bible and many things are not. I believe Jacob was the spiritual leader of Gods people. You could say Gods conduit/ prophet on earth during that time. It is impossible to write down the entirety of revelation given to just one person. He practiced polygamous to have his family. You can deny it but it is still true. I say God told him to multiply and replenish. He did. You presume to put limits on Gods actions because your ways and thoughts are not his. After we're dead we will learn many things God did that will change our view.
History is not nice and neat. Tamar?
@@mascotbenches5146 right, but the fact remains Jacob 2 verse 30 is not a polygamy loop hole. It’s been misread to fit the narrative. D&C 132, sure, we have polygamy - but it’s not in the BOM. It’s an error of interpretation. Even Don Bradley now agrees.
He also ignores so many true statements by other prophets and apostles including an official statement by the first presidency that described the curse upon the "negro" as being a curse of blackness as well as a priesthood ban an attributes this to behavior in the pre-mortal life! Also, believe it or not, he also ignores what is taught in our own LDS scriptures from the books of Abraham and Moses which clearly mention the curse of black ess as well as the priesthood ban on the descendants of Ham!!! It is so dumb from a supposed PhD that I couldn't hardly believe what I was reading when I saw it! Continued...
Dr. Hales, whether you are an official historian or not, it doesn't matter much to me because you have done some great work here! I have studied theology and Mormon doctrine for more than 60 years and I am very impressed with your unbiased research!! When I compare your work to the very biased work of Dr. Reeves with his stupid Race and the priesthood essay, it's like night and day!! He cherry picks scripture and cherry picks statements that seems to support his views and ignores so many that contradict his stupid conclusion! He ignores the statement by Joseph Smith that states: "The curse is not yet taken from the sons of Canaan, neither will it be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come." Continued...
There are a lot of stupid ignorant comments here and do many that I can't address them all! One stated that the Book of Mormon states that polygamy is an abomination?!? It wasn't the polygamy, it was the overuse of the privilege that God gave them through his prophet(s)! You should read further where In the very same chapter God states that if He would raise up seed to Him, He would command so, but otherwise heed this (have just one wife)!!!
Nice comments, so are a polygamist and a racist? Take off your polygamy lenses and read Jacob 2 again.
Haha that’s not what it says! How about get you a KJV dictionary to understand the usage of “shall”. Then in context see what is referenced as the “things”. Nobody in Smith’s time, either Mormon or not, read this to mean some kind of exception.
You don’t know the BOM - Jacob 2 does nothing but condemn polygamy. 2: 30 is not a loophole. The claim to polygamy rests with sec 132, the BOM is not a text that can be used.
@@Dont-Be-Abi-Yussif I am amazed that people can misinterpret so far as to ignore the meaning of “otherwise” following God’s statement that He retains the right to command his people. The use of the word “otherwise” means that what He may command at His will is different than the command for them to “ hearken unto these things”and the fact that God is commanding His people to “ Hearken into these things” in reference to God’s commandments given in the same literary masterpiece in Jacob 2:27-30. It makes no sense to stretch the meaning of “these things” to extend beyond the immediate vicinity of where it is used in literature. People are even replacing the meaning of “shall” with the meanings of might, or may or would. However, in the context of the Lord speaking to Jacob, “they shall hearken unto these things” is a command to God’s people to be monogamous. People are trying to sidestep grammar and basic English, otherwise we would agree that God reserves the right to make commandments for the purpose of raising seed unto Himself. He states that purpose for Lehi’s family in 1 Nephi 7:1, just about the time He gave Lehi instructions to go get Ishmael. Do you think the sons of Ishmael and the daughters of Lehi, and the sons of Lehi plus Zoram matched up with the daughters of Ishmael perfectly? A small isolated group in the middle of nowhere with the command to raise up seed that very plausibly has more daughters than sons is enough of a reason for God to sanction polygamy to not have barren aunts who could have become righteous mothers in their healthiest child bearing years while traveling to the promised land for almost a decade. God’s intent was to grow a righteous nation in the promised land. Plurality of wives was sanctioned during the life of 1 Nephi, and no longer sanctioned after his little brother’s speech in Jacob 2 since they were past the necessity. Verse 34 even says that the same commandment given by Jacob, was given by Lehi. Lehi was inspired as he was told the exception, and Jacob was inspired as he was told that the exception was over. Best wishes sorting out the very plausible need for God to sanction polygamy in Lehi’s time
@@Kaydubbbb otherwise what? They shall hearken unto these things. What things? In the 19th century, every Mormon and non Mormon read this the same way. Polygamy was forbidden without exception. Hyrum Smith used this chapter to proclaim monogamy a perpetual principle. Where was any contemporary pushback of YOUR interpretation of “otherwise”? There wasn’t any whatsoever. Find me one single source other than Orson Pratt’s (which isn’t contemporary so it doesn’t count anyway). There are NUMEROUS critiques published about the Book of Mormon at the time by authors, lawyers, writers, etc. - all native speakers of 19th century English - and NONE of them interpreted there to be a loophole.