Do you like/love any of the characters? Does liking characters impact your enjoyment of the series? Do you feel some stories feel more like bullet points than arcs, and does that matter? ~ Tim
Viserys is fucking awesome, he just wants to play with his figurines as he’s calmly awaiting his inevitable demise to a horrible skin-corroding illness, all the while presiding over a time of peace and prosperity. Really, you can SEE how tired he is of Alicent and Rhaenyra’s shit, and I can’t blame him, the guy just wants to enjoy his last few years in peace and those two just cannot stop their bickering.
No I do not like any of the characters like I liked NEd Stark or eraly Aria. Doesen bother me that theire are no likeable character its just missing one thing if everything else is good the show is still good. Just does not make it Great. Yes the story especially after this time jump feels liek bullet points now. It does matter, I am missing some crucial introduction time. I wasnt sure if Daemon liked Laenara until I saw a deleted scene. How was the Strong family bond? Does Visyeris like his kids? How did they justify that cole just killed someone and then jsut did not kill himself. How did Alicent a.) convince him to live and b.) to stay in the Kingsguard. Laenor must be furios and of course their is no scene for that. So Yes it is too fast for me, I hope it makes sense later. And all these Question will be meanigless. But then I wished for more Tempo earlier as well. All the character Development between Raehnyra and Alicent seems meaningless now because they just despise eachother with no hope to recover.
I'd like to note that Aegon seems to get along well with Jace and Luke when no one is provoking them into fighting each other (to the point that they all make fun of Aemond together, the prank did take some work to prepare). The animosity between them is not something they feel themselves, but something that is being imparted on to them by their parents.
Yeah, I think that's what makes it more tragic. One, the kids did not hate each other. Two, Jace prob would've been quite content being a spoiled princeling his entire life. He didn't have this burning desire to be king or felt he had been robbed of a birthright. In another life, Rhaenyra could've been his cool big sis.
Aegon just wants to chilled out and jerk off out of the windows of the Red Keep. He’s not interested in being king until Alicent tells him that if he doesn’t he’ll die. Just as Alicent wasn’t interested in her children taking the throne until Otto told her that they would be killed if they don’t. This conflict has been passed down generation by generation.
@@poenpotzu2865 Yeah, silly me, thanks - Aegon would've been content as the spoiled princeling, I meant. Jace would've been the crown prince under his mother, of course.
I felt really bad for Lyonel even before his death- he was one of the few men who genuinely wished to be a good and unbiased advisor to the king, but he found himself stuck in a conflict of interests because he didn't want to rat on his own son. This dilemma really weighed him down so much that he wanted to quit because he didn't think he would be a good Hand anymore if he couldn't be impartial and entirely honest.
The thing that I liked most about the scene contrasting the two birth scenes is that Daemon didn't really answer. He didn't really give a yes or a no just asked whether or not the mother would live and hesitated. And then Laena made the decision herself. Daemon didnt make a choice because it wasn't his to make.
I just don't think it's really apples to apples. Aemma was very clearly going to die. The master said: "she's going to die". Viserys only choice was whether to try to save his child. With Laena, while we *know* there would have likely been serious complications from laboring that long, she seemed to be perfectly fine. (Or as fine as one could be given the circumstances.) Idk if they just were responding to the pushback from episode 1 but I read the two instances very differently.
@@michaelahurt I think it is meant to be apples to apples. While the maester didn't explicitly say she was going to die, I think it's implied through what Laena does afterwards. They filmed this all months ago so there's no way to respond to pushback from episode 1 (although I'm not sure there was much pushback).
@@michaelahurt all of this would have been filmed and done before any pushback from the episode ever occurred. I really think those scenes were meant to contrast each other and the brothers. Also I think the importance of the scene with viserys is that he made a decision for his wife's body that ended up killing her. I do think that was intentional, seeing as her death scene involved pleading and screaming for them to stop.
This the first episode where I personally felt the super fast pace that some people have complaining about for a while. Particularly with Harwin Strong being introduced and taken out in such a short time frame, just wished we could’ve seen more of his character.
Same, I loved both him and Laena and found them intriguing and was sad that we didn't get any space to explore their relationships with their respective partners.
I agree. I think we needed an extra half an episode to settle in with the characters after the time jump. Just an extra half hour would have gone a long way, I think
Okay, the fact that Daeron Targaryen (Alicent and Viserys' fourth and last child) isn't around yet is both horrifying and hilarious because it means that, at some point, poor Alicent (and yes, terrible as she's becoming, in this instance she would be poor) has to sleep with her rotting corpse of a husband to get pregnant one more time.
I know it’s for more practical reasons like succession but I can’t imagine Alicent isn’t the tiniest bit jealous about Rhaenyra getting a hot guy like Harwin while she’s stuck with King Crypt Keeper
@@merrittanimation7721 the jealousy is probably more of a choice/agency issue than a “Harwin is a 9 and Viserys is a corpse” issue. Rhaenyra gets to freely choose her lovers while Alicent is stuck getting dispassionately nailed by a half rotten guy old enough to be her dad.
As someone who has not ready any of the books, I actually really don’t have an issue with the time jumps. I feel like the core conflict is clear, the tension between Rhaynera and Alicent is intriguing, and something that I’ve noticed about this show is there are a lot of conversations that happen, lots of dialogue (which I actually like, I love the drama, the politics). But after each episode, it’s easy for me to understand the set up leading into the next and how a series of choices made by a handful of individuals sets in motion conflict for generations
I feel like the tongue-less bandits wearing Larys' symbol (and having a closeup of it) was a disappointing decision by the creators, like they didn't trust the audience to realise Larys was behind it, even though we saw him cutting out their tongues moments earlier.
I would agree if i didn't just see a reaction to this this ep and they didn't even know layrs killed them lol. So maybe obvious to you and me but normies man normies.....
@@visupreme2757 I mean Alicent and Larys have a fight about him killing the Strongs like five minutes later, I feel like if people didn't get it after that it's just hopeless at this point
I love that when somebody dies is the book the maester is like "it was such a tragedy and not at all an assassination, I have SOURCES" and the show just runs with it hehe...
leanas death was the most emotional part of the episode for me, as a non book reader. here we have a woman who we see grow up. even as a young girl showing ambition to find her dragon and make her name for herself, raising herself thru the customs of the time, and ultimately choosing her own fate. defiant to the end
My problem with the opening is that they could’ve easily solved it by just adding the names of the characters same way the names for the castles were present in the opening for got
Yea the opening isn't really clear what any of the symbols are supposed to mean especially for the new kids and stuff hope they refine the opening in season 2 to make it better understood who's who .
@@AllTheArtsy it's creative in concept to differentiate from the original but it's to vague unless your well versed in the history of house targaryen they should definitely integrate more recognizable symbols and names in the next season.
This. Give the symbols names and brighten up the colors. In its current state the opening has zero information value and functions purely as a guessing game for lore buffs.
I feel like the kids are probably the characters we're going to be meant to like; they're thrust into this war by the follies of not only their parents but their grandfather, they're fed hatred of their own kin for the sake of political gain, and ultimately they have to fight to the death riding dragons that are arguably family to them. I feel like as we go on and as the Dance picks up we'll be made to support them in their tragedies, and that Rhaenyra and Alicent will become increasingly dislikable in large part because they're making their kids fight this war.
Remember when they stablished that all Baratheons had dark hair, then we got Shireen with blondish hair and perfectly legit? At least now, things are clearer. LMAO
Westerosi genetics do seem to over-rely on taking someone's hair and going "Hey Bill, is this is more ash or chestnut?" "I'd say chestnut." "War it is, then."
@@merrittanimation7721 they sort of have mentioned it, back during the tourney in episode 1 when a Baratheon asks Rhaenys for her favour and she calls him cousin.
Non book viewer here. This episode was amazing it really brought everything together in terms of seeing where things are going. The kids proxy fight was helpful to portray the two sides
It doesn’t make it break the show but I did wish that we got just one or two more scenes for Laena and Harwin. Timeskips are totally fine for me, I got no issues yet but I am excited for when the timeskips ceases cause then you know it’s going to pop off.
personally, as someone who is deeply invested in HotD but hasn't read Fire and Blood, my jaw literally dropped when I saw Laena die by dragonfire. Mainly because I really liked what they presented of her character so far, but it was also cool to see how close her and Vhagar's relationship was, especially following Laena's conversation with her dragonless daughter. Still, I'm so sad she's gone already In terms of likeable characters, I feel like seeing Daemon really grieve over the death of Laena after refusing to go ahead on cutting her open (in contrast to his brother Viserys) makes Daemon a lot more likeable to me. So not only is he a bad boy badass, he's come to develop a lot more complex and intimate emotions. Laenor is also on the top of my likeable characters list as well, because I can really see how the death of Joffrey impacted him even 10 years later, with how he named his (but not his) child after him, how he seems to find other lovers to fill the void, and how the parallel of him practicing with another man as he did with Joffrey back in Driftmark cements the fact that Joffrey was his first love and that he might be trying to find someone to cope within
Daemon has been one of my favorite characters from day 1 (surprisingly not because he’s played by Matt Smith), but I do *really* like the character development he’s been getting, and at this point I think he’s my favorite character, period.
I dunno, I don't think Daemon should get that many good guy points for refusing to murder his wife considering that he, you know, murdered his last wife.
I LOVED Harwyn Strong and Lyonel Strong - RIP I guess. I quite like Rhaenyra for all the flaws she has. Especially in her younger version she has this fire and desire to explore life and prove herself and I can sympathize with that. That she is selfish and not really politically savvy makes it more interesting. Same with Viserys - he makes soo many horrible decisions as king but I just love him as a person. (Apart from the fact that he continued to have sex with the obviously unwilling teenage Alicent) I really liked Alicent in the first 4 episodes which makes her bitterness and unwillingness to compromise incredibly tragic to me And I can't help but cheer for everything Daemon does, he is just too charismatic (except murdering his wife, that was cold)
Laenor is currently the most likable to me. In this episode he seems protective of his wife and (step) kids even though he knows how this whole situation makes him look. Immature, a bit self centered, but seems like a good dude.
Idk, he seemed kinda like a doting idiot or a jock type char to me, totally insensitive to Rhaenyra and what she was going thru, thought he’d be sharper, more intuitive but I’ll wait to see his personality in more situations
The show runner said they're gonna stop with the time jumps in season 2. I haven't read the books, this season basically worked for me even before I knew it is the way it is to get us to the better stuff.
Haven't read the book, the time jumps really don't bother me at all. I feel like the characters are introduced just enough for us (or at least me) to feel something toward them. I really felt her death in that episode, how she begged her dragon for example. It spoke to me even though we barely knew her, and I think it's because we can directly relate to the death of the Queen in the first episode
It's also implied (or outright stated, idk haven't read the books) that Targs have a psychic-ish bond with their dragons. So the dragons they bond with can feel the pain of their riders, in a way. That's what got to me in that scene, was how you could tell what Vhagar was feeling despite not having any human features.
I don't know if it's controversial but I liked Laena's death. She knew she could die a long death with no agency or be cut open with no regard for her life, or take matters into her own hands and get a quick death, one befitting a dragon rider. Daemon showed his growth by not making those decisions for her and I felt his grief at her death as he went out to find her just as Vaeghar smoked her. So many women in this show have their agency taken when childbearing is put into the mix and she took her choice back.
He has a very pleasant voice and mannerisms, even if the things he said at the end of the episode were almost comically evil. That being said, I'm not necessarily a fan of the "Only guy with a limp is evil af" -thing
As someone who hasn't read the book, I definitely felt the exposition dumps in this book. A lot of the mother-son conversations took me out a bit, as if this was the first time she not only told him, but told in a way that was conveniently concise and to the point. But how I took that was more a feeling of deliberate urgency, I feel very much as if there is somewhere the show is wanting to take me and for the time being I'm very happy to hop on and let it go. So if the series pays it off, I'm fine with it. Also ,also, kind of, kind of enjoying not rooting for anyone. This is a snakes nest of spoiled, entitled rich kids, I'm looking forward to seeing it all burn in delicious consequence.
I’m ok with time skips, I just wish they were better explained to the audience. I hate having to spend the first 30 minutes of an episode wondering how long it’s been since the last episode. But I understand why they did it this way and it was probably the right thing to do just not executed as great as I’d have liked.
usually they find a way to comment the amount of time that passed in the first 15ish minutes... In this case you have the point that Daemon has been gone for 10 years, in the 2nd episode Rhaenyra complains that it's been 6 months since her mother died, the next one you know Aegon is turning 2yo, so it's been at least 2y9m since the wedding... But it does leave one kind of lost for a little while, yeah
@@Darkstar_Dayne ya but that dialogue is buried like halfway through the episode. The amount of time that has passed effects EVERYTHING in the episode, I shouldn’t be sitting here for half an episode wondering wtf is going on because the show runners are too proud to put a “10 Years later” card up at start of the episode and instead cram an awkward line of dialogue in the first opening that won’t destroy the pacing of a conversation.
@@inesramalho5644 exactly, I know NOW how long has passed but when I’m trying to enjoy the show for a good portion of it I don’t, which is a problem if you want me to understand wtf is happening. I think this last episode was both the longest jump and it took them the most time to actually tell the audience how long it had been.
@@Darkstar_Dayne but why? Why is a show, its its opening act trying to set up a massive confrontation gatekeeping important information about its own character from the audience for nearly half each episode? Who gains from this? The writers have to shoehorn in awkward dialogue where character explicitly call out exactly how long it has been since the last episode, the audience is left wondering wtf is happening for the first 20 minutes, all so the show runners can get a seat at the “show don’t tell” alter?
I've read a song of ice and fire but not fire and blood. I'm very into the series and the pace it's not bothering me at all. I understand they are placing pieces to tell a larger story and they do it enough that I care for the characters
6:59 - YES. That was _very _*_much_* coming to mind for me too, as someone who hasn't read the books. I really like her. I was looking forward to finally getting to spend a little more time with her. But instead, we just immediately killed her off. It was disappointing. Especially after not getting to soak in the aftermath of episode 5, at all, either. They should have given themselves just one or two more episodes and really let these events and timelapses ruminate or breathe or something.
I thought the kids were adorbs - even Aemon (mini-Chloe Sevigny). And it adds to the tragedy that Viserys's dream of a happy united family *was* possible. If the tragic destination is inevitable, it's not compelling - you need missed opportunities. And this episode shows that. That said, I would've liked another episode to flesh out the story and add some softer, more human elements as you said. Also, I feel like we've missed a compelling part of Rhaenyra's character development. Because it's impossible to deny that her having three children with Harwin was politically-unwise. Why did she do it then, because she's not stupid. Was it because of love (she wanted *Harwin's*)? Was it because of arrogance (She should be able to behave like a man; she's a Targaryen, screw public opinion)? But the show hinted at love, then made her seem bewildered and surprised that everybody was gossiping about her when she'd had three obvious bastards. It didn't make sense to me so I'm going to just go with the love answer. Because the Blacks were all about love - that was a side where the familial love was strongest.
I got the impression that Laenor really didn't want to do anything in bed with Rhaenyra even just to get her pregnant. He was so cut up about joffrey's death (still shows ten years later) that it was the last thing on his mind, and Rhaenyra needed to get pregnant fast. I thought it would make sense for him to just masturbate and give her the semen. Or, since his family knew of his sexuality, go to Corlys and ask for some Velaryon semen to use since her husband couldn't do it. I think maybe seeing that process and the reasons behind the continued impregnation with Harwin would have been useful. Just the one extra episode to develop that maybe
I mean, she's had 2 dark haired children and everyone has avoided gossiping about it openly for years , Alicent only had a single conversation about it with the King in all that time & he shut her down & told her to never bring it up again, so the events of this episode are a change in the established status quo, Alicent being in a stronger position than before & taking a stand at the third child, challenging the King over it & discussing it openly with Criston , changed things at court, & so they react to the change .
Viserys is unnironically my favorite character, he's not power-hungry, he doesn't cares about anything, he just wants to play with his Old Valyria Lego build and chill, mad respect 👏
Given how ill he was shown in episodes 4 & 5, rotting in multiple places and collapsing all over the castle, I’m shocked he made it 10 more years. They made it seem like he had weeks to live
i probably would've liked him better if my eyes didn't bleed whenever i'm forced to look at him. i mean c'mon of all the diseases of this world why did they have to hive him the nastiest one? couldn't it have been tuberculosis or sth?
As someone who read the book, I think they are doing an amazing job at managing the timeline, but I understand why it must fall flat for people who came with a GoT expectation and who don't know how it will evolve... In GoT we had a lot of stuff happening in a lot of places at the same time, but in the end it all happens in a few years. In HotD everything is happening in the same place, with the same family, but it takes around 30 years, so they have a lot of time to cover, and that means sacrificing some things. I think that this duality is the reason for the two complaints I've seen (that it's too quick paced and plot beats aren't well developed, and that it's to slow and nothing is happening)
I’m a a casual viewer. I haven’t even touched a single book by the author, and I’ve only seen game of thrones. I think the show isn’t too crazy out of line. It was odd to see different people playing the same characters but I think they choose fine look alikes. And since I’m aware of what this story is about I don’t mind these episodes playing out as they have been. The point of the views, based on what I know, is a family civil war, showing the moments that gave birth to that conflict I think is fine. I think the show has given, me anyway, enough context to understand why some of the characters, if not all, are angry about before the conflict begins.
It is kinda bothersome to see the rapid resolution on Harwyn and Laena's characters. What really gets me is that we never get to see Daemon insult the son of the Sealord of Braavos just to duel and kill him and then wed Laena. That was a critical moment that should have been covered. Same goes with the duel between Cole and Strong where Strong loses and takes on the title broken bones. Like I'm glad we get that little tussel between them but it wasn't enough. At first I thought that that scene was setup to their duel for later. Their duel could have better fleshed out Coles fall to the darkside as it were. And lastly the thing that irks me a little is that Cole doesn't have too much nuance or likeability. I really think given the ambiguity of his book character that there was definitely more to him than just a angry ex lover. He could have been a honor bound character that like Jaime and Ser Duncan the Tall painted in the nuances to knighthood. If his and Rhaenyras relationship had more time develop there could have been some really good heart in conflict with the self in him wanting to be with her but not wanting to dishonor himself. That's more minor, the Cole stuff, but the other scenes from the books with Laena and Harwyn should have been here. They are operating on so little source material just one or two chapters really for this first season I don't think they really can afford to leave anything out. I'm already longing for what those scenes could have been, particularly Daemon insulting this pompous son to the Sealord of Braavos just to kill him.
um, Cole almost killed himself over shame last episode , he had honour/dignity in his post back then , so that is in his character , & it's likely hes sworn service to the Queen , so there may be honour/duty in his behaviour this episode to undermine her son's rivals for the throne , not only spite , though spite certainly is there too
but aye, soo much of Daemon's story seems to have been skipped , we could have really done with an extra episode, though these last 3 all seemed very rapid in their progression through time & somewhat compressed , so that it makes some things end up being cut & there might be pay off for that in the rest of the series , but him racing Rhaenera to dragonstone, him being laughed out of his attempt to secure lands for himself , his duel to win Laena's hand , all would have been very nice to see in the series
I can't help but see Harwin as a perfect captain of Gondor from Jackson's LOTR. And I felt genuine pain, seeing his end. His father was too loyal to the king, but sharing some kind of his weakness. Laena is portrayed as a perfect match for Daemon. Both are daring, unique and strong, true dragon riders. I miss this brave daughter of Sea Snake already. The show is great - you see some of the characters for few minutes during one episodes and still writers and actors were able to pour so much personality and nuance into those figures. Writing here is second to none, House of the Dragon is a miracle of an adaptation. Great justice has been done to source material and yet approach is both creative and respectful. It's not only good fantasy show, it's good story of well written characters. Sadly not all fantasy tv series today can be like HotD. I wasn't a big fan of Thrones, both books and the show, but this I hella love.
I'm sorry, how is Rhaenyra not likable? Just because she asked her husband - who has been acting like a teenager presumably for a decade - to not galavant across the realm with his boyfriend and to stay with his family? Part of the reason why these rumors are rampant are because his behavior is also extremely brazen. Feels really harsh towards Rhaenyra when everyone else is miles worse than she is. Also, being likable and being a good guy are two different things. Daemon is extremely likable. Not nice. Not a hero.
I think I misspoke. I don't think Rhaenyra is *unlikable*, but I don't find positively likable (even though she has her moments, like when she said for Laenor to bring Qarl-that was really nice!). She's more of a neutral figure for me than a negative. I did mention I really liked her in the first half, and this episode they just made her a tad less so. ~ Tim
I definitely didn't appreciate how she questioned him on naming 1 of the 3 children, jabbed at him not being the one who had given birth and regarding him being the true father (while she's been having an affair with Harwin that's left them exposed to doubt and prying eyes) yet then said exactly the opposite ('you are their true father') when he was looking to leave? That doesn't excuse Laenor from his decade of debauchery but it seemed off that Rhaenyra first pushed him away when he tried to name one of 'his' sons, only to then force him back in when he looked to leave?
@@user-nv2wt4hi8t the point is he named the kid without talking to her first. Since she literally just gave birth 2 minutes prior and was bleeding all over the floor of the Queen’s bedroom, I think she can be forgiven for being annoyed that he named the kid without consulting her first. She also accepts it and keeps his name as Joffrey. Idk I think people are really not being fair to Rhaenyra here
@@leemiller29 exactly, Laenor was a doting idiot this episode and insensitive to what Rhaenyra was going thru. I’m surprised more people don’t see that
@@leemiller29 I can definitely appreciate that, as well the emotional and physical stress of being literally minutes post birth alongside having the growing tension of the Queen breathing down her neck, looking for bastards. I just did feel like, given again she was knowingly part of the same deal as him, sleeping with whoever they like, and it's from that, that Rhaenyra is now facing consequences, it seemed very off-base that she then totally did a 180 compared to just a few scenes earlier with Laenor, now calling him the 'true father' to emotionally leverage him, when just before she was acting the total opposite. It didn't seem like Laenor could win no matter what he did, within the boundaries of their agreement.
Non-book reader here; I've read the main asoiaf books but haven't read fire and blood. re: your comment on plot points feeling like bullet points. I definitely felt the "bullet point" nature of the show the last couple of episodes, especially in episodes 4 and 5, to the point where I was considering giving up on the show. But e6 actually brought me back. Barring 1 or 2 subplots (eg. Laena), e6 was the first episode (except for e1) where the different subplots acrually felt weighty, like they weren't just a list of checkboxes. I'm hoping the show stays that way going forward, but who knows.
I have to say I think the choice to centre so much around the relationship between Alicent and Rhaenyra has proven to be a masterful decision. Because, yes, the reason why this sort of storytelling (full of time skips, events that are set up and quickly resolved, new characters that don't last very long) is because everything is anchored on that relationship/rivalry. This was foresight I couldn't imagine in the first episode and thought it was just an interesting change with some quirky changes in age gap. I do love that the central characters are deeply flawed and those flaws are what keeps, sometimes inadvertently, exacerbating the tensions. I also enjoyed the progression of Alicent, who feels almost corrupted by a deep paranoia after everything that came before... That scene with Aegon was brilliant and even unsettling.
I don't mind the time jumps at all. I prefer to get this context despite modern convention being START AT THE ACTION because so many of my favourite stories bring me in gradually (gradual is distinct from boring, never be boring). Also I'm not sure Viserys is necessarily the most likeable - IRL women I've talked to about the show and I've said I've liked him have not forgiven him for the whole stabby stab no consent bit. Daemon, Young Alicent and Older Rhaenyra are my personal favourites.
I really wish they could have spent at least the entire first season to the prelude to war and did not rush to do things like this too soon. The time jumps give us no way to get to know a lot of these characters. They feel more like check boxes that have to be ticked in a to-do list, rather than a story organically playing out. II have no sympathy for Criston Cole. He is perhaps the worst character in the entire piece. Alicent is passing her own trauma and hate to her children too, when her and Rhaenyra's children could be close instead. And while I feel for Rhaenyra, she has no leg to stand on either. She is selfish, entitled and brazen. Instead of shoring up her claim, he is just openly hacing bastrads weakening her own claim as well as that of her children. Daemon is a horrible person (but Matt Smith is killing it lol). And Viserys is a horrible king that will die and see his realm devolve into civil war. There's no one to cheer for in this war. At least until our boy Adamm gets here 😅
The only thing I had difficulty getting past was that we were shown absolutely no consequences for Criston Cole, a man who murdered the grooms best friend in front of everyone at a royal wedding. We see the queen adopt him and... that's that? No banishment to the wall, or expulsion from the Kingsguard, nothing that we see, anyway. Imagine being Laenor and living in the same house as the man who killed your lover in front of you with his bare hands and received no real punishment.
I would have really liked it if we had actually seen Rhaenyra and Laenor / Daemon and Laena reconnecting and visiting each other or whatever for a while, almost even being-dare I say it?-kind of happy?? Just for a little while. Before tragedies struck and it all started downhill again, like a rude awakening. Or something.
Haven't read the Book: For me it feels more like bullet points rather than a story. It feels like the writers going, "you got that? Understand what happened? Good we're jumping 3 years." And in that time no one addressed the bullshit left on the table. They just sat on grudges for that long. We speedran the relationship of the Princess and her Guard. They fucked once and next episode, two or three years had passed and their breaking up. I, personally, have no attachment to anyone. These are just people reading lines.
My favorite part of the first five episodes, was the relationship between Viserys and Rhaenyra, which I think made them more human. I wish they had one more scene or subtle hints in this episode to show whether they have drifted apart again the last ten years, and what they feel about that. I think it's nice that the characters are flawed, mostly because the show takes the effort to show why. A bit more relationship focus/scenes wouldn't hurt, but I'm happy with seeing Rhaenyra and Laenor understanding each other (from my perception of them), the different kids getting along (while bullying the other kid together), and something to show that the parents love their kids (like seeing Daemon teaching his kid the Valyrian language I think it was). Anything to make them human makes me happy I guess.
I think they've been handling the time jumps quite well, with us feeling the weight of it as children grow (and viserys gets increasingly horrifying). I think fully likable characters aren't a requirement, but I also worry that if they keep portraying everyone as a total heartless douche all the time, they lose the signature morally gray characters we've come to love from Martin's work. After all, the brutality and violence only pay off when set against a backdrop of love and kindness, so that we get the emotional shock of something good (ie precious) being ruined. Main conflict is being revisited and expanded upon at every episode, which is great.
It's weird how the show feels so slow yet so choppy. It's as if they don't have enough material to fill hour long episodes, but then jump ahead 10 years and short change half the characters' scenes so we can watch Viserys sitting for several minutes.
I think Rhaenyra's boys are pretty likable. They seemed nice and thoughtful in this episode, even though they did bully Aemond, but one has to think that Aegon was the ringleader. He's the oldest and the only real dragon rider among them so it makes sense that he would orchestrate that prank. In the book, they gave me sort of Robb Stark vibes. They're such good Strong boys.
I like the training yard fight scene. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't cinematic, it was just clumsy and loud as you would expect with kids but some of those blows would genuinely hurt. No stabbing three feet wide of the target or mid-air circus flips (ROP cough cough!)
Sounds like the writers should have gone for a flashback non-linear type narrative, with fewer main storylines closer to the present and at the end of the series the flashbacks and the present collide at last. That way we would have a bigger attachment to the main players, meaning house targaryen As it is, I just don't care about anyone because everyone will meaningless and dead by the next episode.
As someone who never read the books seeing Rhaenyra having kids by the one guy felt a little out of the blue but then it's like well she is married to a guy who would rather not breed with a woman but I mean couldn't she have just hooked up with Daemon so the kids aren't a glaring red flag to anyone who's not color blind? Daemon would have gotten what he want through the children he would have made through her. Rhaenyra was down bad for her uncle at one point.
This is a show based on the work of GRRM. I am here to watch the terrible people do terrible things to each other while I eat popcorn on the sidelines. I know what I'm getting into, and none of the characters have to be likeable for me.
Larys is putting off a little yandere energy with Alicent which is an interesting choice. It's probably not "love" though. He presented the Strongs as a peace offering and an investment in her but also a threat and an attempt to "dirty her hands" if she tries extricate herself from his grip. He's very bold and brazen with his "subtlety" in the show.
So far, I am loving the show. I haven’t read the books, but I do listen to podcasts and videos explaining the books, lore, and story line. For both shows (HOTD and GOT) if you don’t know anything about the books, there is much details you can’t appreciate. Having said that, I think they have done a great job telling this story. The time jumps have been well depicted and logical. I wished we could have seen Rhaenyra and Harwin talked to each other more confortable, but I think it was done like that on purpose. They obviously had a good relationship but also knew their places. Harwin knew and accepted that he couldn’t ask for claims and Rhaenyra kept her distance in public. The kids were meant to be fathered by Leonor and he was giving that authority. It’s sad really. Not easy for anyone involved. It’s so well done. Love it
um, it may follow through that Larys' agents do keep wearing Strong insignia , and so be dumb , but given the location at a House Strong stronghold, ie Harrenhal , it's actually a pretty decent disguise this episode
I think what I dislike in this episode will be dependent on whether there’s another big time jump or not. If there isn’t, then I really don’t like how Laena and Harwin weren’t given another episode or two to develop. If there is, then hopefully their deaths play key roles in the stories of Daemon and Rhaenyra moving forward. Also, contrary to popular opinion: I’m really digging Alicent!
Rhaenyra is likeable (yet), Corlys and Rhaenys are likeable, Rhaenyra's children are likeable, Daemon's children are likeable, Helaena is likeable, there is A LOT of likeable characters, and there will be a lot more in season two...
Rhaenyra having to make Leanor stay shows the contrast of responsibility the two characters bear. They have an understanding but Leonor gets to have his partners without major consequences. Rhaenyra has to stress to him that in order for him to continue to enjoy all the privileges he has, he needs to be there as a father. The whole scene shows how Rhaenyra has to be the one to keep it together. I don’t think that makes her unlikeable.
I feel like we need that moral compass character (I thought it was going to be Harwin lol), for the other more 'grey' characters to contrast off. Otherwise we might be headed to a point where the shocking actions of those characters just become part of 'the way of the world' which isn't necessarily a good thing and could become stale quite quickly.
At 2:35 In one frame after "life long bonds" sentence from Vyseris,his face is in one frame incredibly reminiscent to that of the Great Pontiff from Berserk. Both of them are happy about what they think is happening, but don't really know what actually is happening.
I was not onboard for Rhea and Joffrey's abrupt and brutal murders last week. But I really like Rhaenera's relationship with Laenor. They listen to each other. I also find the outrage at the princess having bastards hilarious. Like that's what you ordered!
I really like this series, and I like all of the characters. Having flaws or villainous streaks at this point in the story makes a lot of sense based on their histories and experiences. Alicent is a lot like Sansa, if Sansa had got the political education she needed growing up to maneuver court. Rhaenyra was advised by her uncle to enjoy being a princess, and the privilege that gives her. Her indulgences were encouraged, and so she indulged them. But now she’s facing peril because of those very decisions, and even though she hasn’t set out to hurt anyone, she comes to see that this is the price of her privilege as a princess, she doesn’t in fact have that freedom her uncle and father might have done. Her position as heir has been threatened by her own recklessness. Daemon’s growing complexity is also fascinating. His first marriage was loveless and scornful, his second makes him consider quitting court politics to become a homemaker. Laena loved him, and brought out the best in him, but she also reminded him that what she loved in him was his ambition, his greatness, his swagger. So he has a new relationship with that side of himself now. The offer of marriage between Alicent’s daughter and Rhaenyra’s son is a great solution and alternative to war, so seeing Alicent refuse that really pitted me against her. She has had my sympathy because she is so Sansa-like, she’s a genuinely good and dutiful woman trying to make her way and live by example. And like Sansa, she won’t concede to someone who has wronged her when she has the power not to. She won’t forgive Rhaenyra’s trespasses because of the depth of her betrayal, it cost Alicent her father and her best friend all in one go. I also prefer this closed knit politicking to the overly expansive GoT, where every episode we’d rush all over the map to disjointed storylines. I honestly feel that these episodes are more thrilling and better held together.
“Pay attention to Helaena” honestly, I watch the show with my sister (who hasn’t read the books, though I have), and when Helaena said the thing about eyes I hooted like a fucking owl and rewound it to make sure I’d heard her right. Nice touch.
Personally I'm enjoying it all. I did definitely notice the speed with which things are moving. I was really shocked they killed off Harwin already but presumably they need to move on quickly. I'm not really bothered that no one is "likeable." They're human and just overall very tragic. The two main protagonists, Rhaenyra and Alicent, are both entirely understandable in their motives to be honest. I feel like there's definitely a sense that both are being forced into their rivalry as much by their positions as by their petty personal grudges. So even though they're making mistakes and making it worse, the sort of grand prisoners dilemma of court politics means neither of them can safely lay themselves at the others mercy in case it is not forthcoming. Essentially, without being too cliche, there are only two options in the game of thrones: you win or you die. Neither of them can safely forfeit and walk away because their heirs would always be a threat and would eventually be hunted down. So instead they're forced to stay at the centre of power fighting to consolidate their positions. I think it's brilliantly executed overall and much harder to adapt than GoT when you consider the timescale. I'm thoroughly impressed.
As a casual viewer who hasn't read the books i've really enjoyed the series so far. I don't mind that certain beats/characters appear and resolve quickly or time jumps every few episodes. It feels appropriate, like we're getting much needed context and seeing the dominoes set up or learning how long certain tensions have been simmering. I'm committed to the idea of the long game and seeing the multi-generational tragedy that's being staged play out. Since I can only guess at what will happen it's a surprise when things wrap up in a way I don't expect or a character dies who I expected to be a bigger player, hell I expected the king to die already so it creates a lot of tension and anticipation. I find myself really paying attention to the characterization - who is making big moves that push the conflict closer, how do influences and experiences shape the players as they move closer and closer into open conflict, and since everything is so intimately and emotionally tied together how does that change the story when there are emotional outbursts that irrevocably alter the narrative. If something happens then resolves quickly it feels like the inclusion is part of a bigger puzzle tied to other characters and motivations we'll see moving forward. I don't mind the pacing being a little erratic as long as the larger story and motivations still make sense to me.
Thank you for this review, exceptional episode! But I truly wished we’d gotten more of Laena (aged her up just to flirt with Dawmon, then aged her up again Hisui to have Daemons babies and die w/o ever going home 😢) tho I respect her going out like a G! 👌🏿 Also, Laenor came off like a doting idiot, I expected him to be smarter and more regal. I also hope they give Allicent more her own ambitions like Cersei independent of her father’s or the whole scorned woman vibe, but I get it. ALSO also, Dunno why Harwin got removed from watch for attacking a knight while Criston beat a knight to death in court and punched Laenor smh nor why Larys brutally murdered his own family for a favor from the Queen like wtf? That was so left field, is he just like sadistic or psychopath??
So the Harwin thing is because his Dad is hand of the King and it wasn't the fight that got him kicked out but rather confirmations on the rumors he was banging the soon to be Queen.
@@robertblume2951 I don't that is it , because that would just confirm the fact that the children are bastards. He was removed because he attacked a kingsguard. A kingsguard is supposed to be above reproach, they are regarded as the perfect embodiment of knightly virtues so only the king is above them. That is why cole killing Joffery is not a big deal though I would have loved the show to establish the powers of a kingsguard. I guess they did answer it here. This show is the one of the best I have seen at using subtext at explaining things without ACTUALLY spelling things out.The cole killing Joffery scene was answered with that harwin-cole altercation without actually putting it to words.
@@adedayooyegunju828 They keep implying Rhaneara creating bastards is Treason which i why i took that as the answer. Why is Rhaneara and the hand afraid of the consequences of telling the king if not? Why does Rhaneara go into exile at the end of the episode if it was just a kingsguard's protections that caused the exile of Harwin?
@@robertblume2951 No one exiled Harwin he was fired from the City Watch and his father fearing for his family's safety and to protect his grandchildren(Rhaeneyra's kids) wanted to leave so that the consequences could be contained somehow
I haven't read the books...and the time jumps are jarring. Just when I was getting comfortable with all the characters, we get reintroduced to their older selves...and now that you said they are going to do another time jump, I'm really unsure. I kind of wish they had picked a better starting point, and then introduced all the background story another way. It's like trying to fit a season or two of back story into a few episodes. I am glad I didn't wait until they were all available for binge watching...
I believe it's pretty clear at this point that HoTD and F&B timelines are different from one another. One thing that jumped at me in this episode was Daemon and Laena's 'placement', since they were still in Pentos when she passed, whereas, in F&B, this takes place in Driftmark. In situations such as this, which telling of the events should be considered 'the truth'? Seeing as Archmaester Gyldayn's chronicles were written with official records as a foundation (mostly), I found it odd to see such a drastic change.
Maybe if not for sentimental reasons, Daemon wanted Laena around because the full-time child rearing would take away from his reading time/freedom. He’s definitely engaged when it comes to teaching the Valyrian history he’s immersed himself into, to the daughter who is a dragon rider. But the “father ignores me” line from the other daughter implies that he might not be as invested as he should be as a parent.
No likeable characters, but lots of comprehensible ones (in the sense that you can see the cause and effect of how they came to be the way they are). Except for Larys and Ser Criston
I haven't read the book, although I think I will after this season is completely released. I'm enjoying this setup, but this episode also felt the most hurried in terms of character development for me as well. My roommate, who has not read the book, said to her it's feeling like an anthology more than a single cohesive story. In terms of likeable characters, I do like (or at the very least really enjoy watching) Rhynaera,. Her story just speaks to me. Struggling with selfishness and how to balance her own desires with the demands of monarchy and the people around her. The difference between young Alicent and older Alicent is really striking, and feels like a very believable arc. I don't like her anymore, but understand exactly where she's coming from.
My heart breaks for Viserys honestly. Rhaenyra is that last thing Viserys has that reminds him of the Lady Aemma. He does not and has never loved Allicent and seeing him kiss Aemma’s ring and sob genuinely broke my heart. I’m not ready to let go of Viserys, Paddy Considine finally getting worldwide recognition is amazing.
I really enjoy the show, but I do feel like they could have used another episode or lengthened episode 5 or 6 a bit. The main issue as I saw it was that we didn't see the start of Harwin's affair with Rhaenyra and we didn't truly see the consequences of the murder of Joffrey in ep. 5. I think the consequences for Ser Crispin could have been handled in just one scene with Alicent stopping Westerling from intercepting him as he left the room and saying she would deal with it. We also didn't see enough of Laenor's hatred for Crispin, which surely existed. I think a few more scenes with Harwin and Laena also would have helped make their deaths more impactful. But I know why they're pacing it the way they are. I think there's a big difference between liking a character and thinking they're a good person. I like Daemon. But he's a truly awful person. I like Viserys and Rhaenyra and they are probably the least bad major characters but even they have their moments. Rhaenyra can be dismissive and rude while Viserys can be a little on the stupid side sometimes. And the """villains""" of the show are understandable in their motivations and are still innately human. It's just that some characters tend to reflect the darkest traits of humanity. So I really enjoy most of the major characters regardless of their morality. I'm happy to see Larys on screen because he's a fun and interesting character. Also my understanding from the lore is that it was extremely likely that Larys played a part in the fire that killed his brother and father. Even with his relationship with Alicent being less explicit in the book, he still benefited greatly from their deaths. So it would have been really hard to make Larys more likeable considering his actions. He's far more like a Littlefinger than a Varys (despite Larys only borrowing the L from Littlefinger), especially if we're looking at Varys from the show. All in all I don't care if there's "good guys" in what I'm watching, and I think it makes it more true to life and the characters more interesting.
I wish they weren’t rushing so fast to get to what’s kind of considered the main part of the “historic” story it’s based on. I’d have liked to spend more time with characters like Laena and Harwin. It’d be nice to have a couple seasons in these essentially prologue times slowly building to the conflict ahead.
about the last thing you said. I think we can see the show as the confirmation of the book. we were given different possibilities of some events in the book because the maester who wrote it didn't know for sure. like why did Rhaenyra and Cristin Cole end their friendly relationship? well now we have it confirmed, it was because she refused his marriage offer. so in that way we can say for sure that it wasn't Daemon or Viserys who were responsible for the Strongs' deaths, it was in fact Larys
I had no idea what was going on at first....but mainly due to the shock of casting changes & the uncertainty that the king just collapsing to end the last episode...and was just fine 10 years later.
I mentioned once before about the lack of interaction between young toddler Aegon and his parents, but now in contrast, Alicent gives Aegon far more attention, except it’s always to scold him. It gets sadder
As a show watcher who hasn't read the books / doesn't know what's going to happen: If I'm rooting for anyone at this point it's Rhaenyra - now that she's moving to Driftmark, I think it would be a good writing move to see Rhaenyra and Laenor become closer. They may not be in love, but they are family and they have a lot in common. They're also two lonely "progressive" people in a world that doesn't share their worldview, and they will need one another to survive. I also think it would be a satisfying arc to see these two self-sufficient and perhaps prickly individuals (who've been traumatized by their respective experiences with love and friendship) learn to lean on someone else.
I have no issues with the characters not being likable. It’s fully expected and especially in this type of scenario. It does not impact my enjoyment of the show. In fact, I am enjoying it very much. I can see they are building the context around what is going to happen later. I love world building and lore, so they are doing just that - setting the stage. Rhaenyra vs Alicent does feel like a strong enough tension throughout, and the introduction and loss of characters around them so quickly is totally fine and is just adding more to the tension. Overall Rhaenyra is still a likable character and I am rooting for her to succeed. They are also doing a very good job with showing how complex Daemon is and his growth and making him somewhat likable or at the least very enjoyable to watch his journey and where it is going.
I really liked Alicent's new actress. Seems like a natural time skip maturity for that character. I also like Alicent as a character (I'm aware she's not so much the "good guy"). Not so sold on Rhyneara's new actress quite yet. Seemed a little wooden, not sure if by design or not. I get that she's obviously not going to stay the rebellious teenager (at least in some aspects), but still. Daemon is becoming more likable, Viserys has always been a good guy (but yeah he's croaking very soon). Laenor is a likablish character, but I feel like he's going to be more like Robert Baratheon in personality (read: completely useless). Discount Peter Baelish is a bit too on the nose. I wish they had dialed him back a little. Cristen Cole's I'm reserving judgement on. He just seems petty (not without reason, admittedly, but I feel like he should dial it back with Rhyneara's kids, although not sure how much contact they'll have since she moved to Dragonstone). Haven't read the books, so this all just speculation on my part.
I didn't read the books and am avoiding as many spoilers as possible. Yes I can confirm some things feel they are going by too fast, but that is not always a bad thing, especially if we're taking about death. When Laena died, for instance, I had to pause and process what I had just seen and almost couldn't believe it. But then the sadness hit, largely because I felt she was taken too soon! It left me tearful through the entire rest of the episode, so if an emotional gut punch and enduring sense of loss was what they were going for, they pulled it off. It also fit well that she said she wanted to die like a dragon Rider and then made it happen as best she could given the circumstances. Rather than the pacing, the only truly annoying parts of HOTD, for me, are the blatant exposition moments that make it seem like the writers think we are stupid. Like, what kind of sense did it make to have the men with no tongues wearing the symbol of Larys if we were going to see him talking with Alicent about being behind the murders anyway? He also had an eye roll line during the wedding, talking about lighting the beacon. Stupid nonsense. Just having him grin would've been plenty and even that isn't necessary. Book or no book, we are not dumb.
After this episode, I often think about Viserys' conversation with Lyonel Strong about how Viserys wished he was being tested during his reign as king and Lyonel replies that Viserys would have no way of knowing how things would have turned out if Viserys was tested by some great conflict and that usually the kings who are tested often wish they weren't. It's particularly poignant because Viserys doesn't realize he was being tested throughout the latter years of his life in a way that will have far more devastating consequences on his family, and Westeros than most wars would have ever had if he had fought in one in his own lifetime. Letting Daemon run around the way he did, relying a little too much on Otto Hightower and not recognizing the schemes he was pulling until Rhaenrya literally had to point it out, never really finding the balance between appeasing the other Houses by aiding them with their problems and keeping them reined in from letting their ambitions put their Houses ahead of all others (especially HIS OWN), and marrying again and fathering a son even though he already named Rhaenyra his heir were probably the biggest and most important among the myriad of tests throughout his reign and, even though his reign was relatively peaceful and prosperous, he ultimately failed almost every one of them, even if he did end up addressing them in some way. Good kings can keep things peaceful and prosperous, but there's a good reason why any king who does not adequately, and *quickly*, address internal problems tends to not live very long, get ousted by another dynasty, and/or have their reign marked as the end of their kingdom's golden age and the beginning of its downfall.
Yeah I was disappointed with the direction they took Criston Cole to. It felt very petty and basic. I wish they explored more about his duty as a knight vs his feelings for Rhaeneyra and bring his conflict there. The idea of Love is death of duty vs Duty is death of love. Or maybe his affection for the princess was more of flirty courtly love, but when she made her advance, it became all to real or something. That would have been an interesting story.
Characters with horrible traits can be likable imo, Game of thrones was full of them and we still loved them, Tywin was cruel, mean and power hungry and yet he's a fan favourite. And considering this is the tragedy of a civil war within the same family, they all need to be at each other throats and bring the worst out of them to make the conflict; that doesn't leave much room for obviously likeable traits in character.
I actually found myself weirded out by the decision to not use the "morning after tea" that was introduced in the last episode, even thought it was consistent with the story from the book. If this tea exists then it strikes me as odd that a character like Rhaenyra would allow herself to have 3 kids she knows won't look like her and Laenor. But this is all opinion.
Finally catching up on these, and I wonder if time jumps would have been better in between seasons, so that way there's a kind of closure before we get jumped 10 years forwards.
As someone who hasn't read this book and doesn't really know what's to come (outside of the general civil war, as I've avoided most spoilers on the details of it), I have been quite enjoying this show but this was the episode where the time jumps seemed to actually hurt the storytelling. As I've said in comments on other videos, the main problem I have is that there was such a substantial shift in the status quo that this episode spends a majority of its time simply trying to catch us up and introduce us to the new players (the kids, who I absolutely hate so far, though Daemon's daughters were fine in the few seconds they were on screen) and because the uneven application of recasting and aging makeup (some characters have had 3 actors since the premiere, some only 2, others have 1 but get makeup, and Matt Smith is an unaging Timelord) makes it hard to tell how much time really has passed - when it's only a few months or a couple years, that's not so bad, but at least a decade is pushing it - and I'm having a harder time telling how old characters are actually supposed to be (doesn't help that Milly Alcock looks really young for her age while Emma D'Arcy looks a bit older than 30). I haven't minded the fast resolution to plotpoints because each episode has seemingly focused on a major event, but this episode felt to me like it focused too much on the catch up and introduction so the actual important incidents were pushed to the sides (specifically the opening scene and the ending few). Since you bring it up, I'll honestly say only a few characters really came off as likable to me (this episode): Viserys because he seems to be a man trying to be good he's just not really that great at it, particularly given his circumstances; Harwin, who seemed to value his kids and lover and treat them well; Laena, who was really a standout for me this episode, so it was sad to see her go; and Daemon, who continues to come across in such a nuanced way, with this episode suggesting he really does like and care for Laena at least to a certain extent even if she isn't really who he wants and his life isn't really what he wants even if he doesn't actually know what it is he wants, and has only been able to connect with one person: his niece. It's not necessarily a thing that'll drive me away from the show, but we'll see how it continues.
There is another time jump because the war itself starts when the baby that was born this episode is like 8 years old.... plus Rhaenyra has two more kids that aren’t even born yet. I really like how they showed clearly that Aegon does NOT want his sisters throne, is not antagonistic towards his nephews and it’s only when Alicent gets her claws into him, the same way her father did to her, does he come around. As far as likable characters... honestly they aren’t really likable in the books either, Daemon is sort of a funny rogue but definitely is problematic and even Rhaenyra, who I cheered for in the books and this show, is kind of awful as time goes on. The most likable characters are people like Nettles and Benjicot Blackwood who won’t be introduced for quite awhile. Corlys might be the most likable character in the books at this moment in the story
Hi Tim, I really enjoy your HOTD break down videos a lot, i never fail to rush to watch them after the episode ! I haven't read the Book, and personnally I don't really mind not having likeable characters stick around for long - although that may change once Viserys is gone. I feel their portrayals excel in making you care enough - i won't be getting over Laena's death anytime soon - and not just have them as main characters' motivation devices. Also i'm quite okay with the Time lapses and the cast "Crownisation", if I may, especially since It's not for everybody. Thanks to your opening title credit video, It's really helpful! Is it just me or doesn't Larys remind anyone of Rohan's Wormtongue?
I like to imagine the series is paced the way it is, is because it’s being seen through the eyes of Bran Stark as he speed runs through history to see for himself how it really went down hence the time skips
I'm not entirely sold on the premature incineration of Harwin Strong. I think the fratricide would have had more impact if we had more time with each brother on-screen first. Still loving the show though.
I get why they're doing the time jumps- they're covering the bases to get us to understand everyone's motivation in the civil war to come, and I think they're doing a good job with it. I think they could have benefitted from one extra episode to flesh out Rhaenyra's impolitic choices for the father of her children. Like, did she try and fail to get Laenor to impregnate her in his grief, did she try other avenues? Were people starting to talk about her absence of pregnancy? I would have thought since Laenor's parents knew about his sexuality she might have approached Corlys/ Rhaenys and ask for a Velaryon semen donation due to the issues Laenor was having, did she try and it not work? Was he unwilling to just masturbate and give her the semen? Also others note about Daemon's acquisition of Laena fighting the sea lord of Braavos, that could be included. And the descent of Alicent and Criston, how did they develop this level of bitterness. Just one more episode to flesh out those points, I would have thought would be useful.
Кино
Do you like/love any of the characters? Does liking characters impact your enjoyment of the series? Do you feel some stories feel more like bullet points than arcs, and does that matter?
~ Tim
I still like Rhaenyra so far.
Viserys is fucking awesome, he just wants to play with his figurines as he’s calmly awaiting his inevitable demise to a horrible skin-corroding illness, all the while presiding over a time of peace and prosperity.
Really, you can SEE how tired he is of Alicent and Rhaenyra’s shit, and I can’t blame him, the guy just wants to enjoy his last few years in peace and those two just cannot stop their bickering.
yes yes yes its a floe but not a fatal one
I usually drop shows if I don’t like any of the characters
No I do not like any of the characters like I liked NEd Stark or eraly Aria.
Doesen bother me that theire are no likeable character its just missing one thing if everything else is good the show is still good. Just does not make it Great.
Yes the story especially after this time jump feels liek bullet points now.
It does matter, I am missing some crucial introduction time. I wasnt sure if Daemon liked Laenara until I saw a deleted scene. How was the Strong family bond? Does Visyeris like his kids? How did they justify that cole just killed someone and then jsut did not kill himself. How did Alicent a.) convince him to live and b.) to stay in the Kingsguard. Laenor must be furios and of course their is no scene for that.
So Yes it is too fast for me, I hope it makes sense later. And all these Question will be meanigless. But then I wished for more Tempo earlier as well. All the character Development between Raehnyra and Alicent seems meaningless now because they just despise eachother with no hope to recover.
Honestly when you said "The Targaeryan family tree looks like this" I was legitimately expecting a picture of a circle 😭
I'm stealing this joke
~ Tim
@@twothefuture I'll be even more honoured when you tell it to your dog ❤️
@@twothefuture their family tree is a wreath
House of Aegons 🙏
@@alisaurus4224 Dark: I have the most complicated family tree...
HOTD: We are fucking our cousins 😎
I'd like to note that Aegon seems to get along well with Jace and Luke when no one is provoking them into fighting each other (to the point that they all make fun of Aemond together, the prank did take some work to prepare). The animosity between them is not something they feel themselves, but something that is being imparted on to them by their parents.
Yeah, I think that's what makes it more tragic. One, the kids did not hate each other. Two, Jace prob would've been quite content being a spoiled princeling his entire life. He didn't have this burning desire to be king or felt he had been robbed of a birthright. In another life, Rhaenyra could've been his cool big sis.
Aegon just wants to chilled out and jerk off out of the windows of the Red Keep. He’s not interested in being king until Alicent tells him that if he doesn’t he’ll die. Just as Alicent wasn’t interested in her children taking the throne until Otto told her that they would be killed if they don’t. This conflict has been passed down generation by generation.
@@davon1650 wait do you mean Aegon?
@@poenpotzu2865 Yeah, silly me, thanks - Aegon would've been content as the spoiled princeling, I meant. Jace would've been the crown prince under his mother, of course.
Especially when the queen says you challenge her rule. He so innocently says "then I won't challenge" I cried a little "YOU ARE THE CHALLENGE"
I felt really bad for Lyonel even before his death- he was one of the few men who genuinely wished to be a good and unbiased advisor to the king, but he found himself stuck in a conflict of interests because he didn't want to rat on his own son. This dilemma really weighed him down so much that he wanted to quit because he didn't think he would be a good Hand anymore if he couldn't be impartial and entirely honest.
Among King Viserys' subjects, Lyonel was the closest thing to Ned Stark this season.
The thing that I liked most about the scene contrasting the two birth scenes is that Daemon didn't really answer. He didn't really give a yes or a no just asked whether or not the mother would live and hesitated. And then Laena made the decision herself. Daemon didnt make a choice because it wasn't his to make.
He doesn't utter the word, but the shake of his head indicates a firm no.
I just don't think it's really apples to apples. Aemma was very clearly going to die. The master said: "she's going to die". Viserys only choice was whether to try to save his child. With Laena, while we *know* there would have likely been serious complications from laboring that long, she seemed to be perfectly fine. (Or as fine as one could be given the circumstances.) Idk if they just were responding to the pushback from episode 1 but I read the two instances very differently.
@@michaelahurt I think it is meant to be apples to apples. While the maester didn't explicitly say she was going to die, I think it's implied through what Laena does afterwards. They filmed this all months ago so there's no way to respond to pushback from episode 1 (although I'm not sure there was much pushback).
@@michaelahurt all of this would have been filmed and done before any pushback from the episode ever occurred. I really think those scenes were meant to contrast each other and the brothers. Also I think the importance of the scene with viserys is that he made a decision for his wife's body that ended up killing her. I do think that was intentional, seeing as her death scene involved pleading and screaming for them to stop.
In modern times yes it should be their choice but no in the past it usually wasn’t
This the first episode where I personally felt the super fast pace that some people have complaining about for a while. Particularly with Harwin Strong being introduced and taken out in such a short time frame, just wished we could’ve seen more of his character.
He is not integral to the story just think of anybody not targeyen as disposable
@@adedayooyegunju828
Not exactly true, certain characters last way longer then most targeyen.
@@orionh5535 I am trying not to spoil it by being as vague as possible
Same, I loved both him and Laena and found them intriguing and was sad that we didn't get any space to explore their relationships with their respective partners.
I agree. I think we needed an extra half an episode to settle in with the characters after the time jump. Just an extra half hour would have gone a long way, I think
Okay, the fact that Daeron Targaryen (Alicent and Viserys' fourth and last child) isn't around yet is both horrifying and hilarious because it means that, at some point, poor Alicent (and yes, terrible as she's becoming, in this instance she would be poor) has to sleep with her rotting corpse of a husband to get pregnant one more time.
I know it’s for more practical reasons like succession but I can’t imagine Alicent isn’t the tiniest bit jealous about Rhaenyra getting a hot guy like Harwin while she’s stuck with King Crypt Keeper
Actually she’s already had the child and he is in Oldtown she still have to fuck a old rotten man though
@@merrittanimation7721 the jealousy is probably more of a choice/agency issue than a “Harwin is a 9 and Viserys is a corpse” issue. Rhaenyra gets to freely choose her lovers while Alicent is stuck getting dispassionately nailed by a half rotten guy old enough to be her dad.
Supposedly Daeron already exists, but he’s off screen squiring in Oldtown to avoid casting him this season.
@@Kriosaivak Ah. That makes sense timeline wise, and that's definitely good for Alicent.
As someone who has not ready any of the books, I actually really don’t have an issue with the time jumps. I feel like the core conflict is clear, the tension between Rhaynera and Alicent is intriguing, and something that I’ve noticed about this show is there are a lot of conversations that happen, lots of dialogue (which I actually like, I love the drama, the politics). But after each episode, it’s easy for me to understand the set up leading into the next and how a series of choices made by a handful of individuals sets in motion conflict for generations
I just want to note that Aemond was the best behaved of all the boys this episode
Oh damn that’s gonna change
@@merrittanimation7721 Bullying takes its toll apparently
he is the quiet kid
@@belablanck seems like they're gonna give him an arc of desiring power and projecting fearso he doesn't ever have to feel weak again
@@PhilHug1 he's gonna end up with the biggest flying nuke, isn't he
I feel like the tongue-less bandits wearing Larys' symbol (and having a closeup of it) was a disappointing decision by the creators, like they didn't trust the audience to realise Larys was behind it, even though we saw him cutting out their tongues moments earlier.
Agreed. For every moment of subtlety and care, there’s a moment or two of blatant pandering to the lowest common denominator. :/
I would agree if i didn't just see a reaction to this this ep and they didn't even know layrs killed them lol. So maybe obvious to you and me but normies man normies.....
Yeah like... why give your assassins your own personal emblem that can be tied back to you even if they can't speak (and presumably read or write)??
@@visupreme2757 I mean Alicent and Larys have a fight about him killing the Strongs like five minutes later, I feel like if people didn't get it after that it's just hopeless at this point
@@visupreme2757 honestly, I have to keep my phone away when I watch. Short attention span plagues the world
I love that when somebody dies is the book the maester is like "it was such a tragedy and not at all an assassination, I have SOURCES" and the show just runs with it hehe...
leanas death was the most emotional part of the episode for me, as a non book reader. here we have a woman who we see grow up. even as a young girl showing ambition to find her dragon and make her name for herself, raising herself thru the customs of the time, and ultimately choosing her own fate. defiant to the end
ty, it's good to see this take on it, though it seems to be in the minority , that was how I perceived it as well
My problem with the opening is that they could’ve easily solved it by just adding the names of the characters same way the names for the castles were present in the opening for got
Yea the opening isn't really clear what any of the symbols are supposed to mean especially for the new kids and stuff hope they refine the opening in season 2 to make it better understood who's who .
Exactly! Those little iconography means nothing to us, specially pre-Viserys (and even his and Rhaenyra aren't really recognizable either)
@@AllTheArtsy it's creative in concept to differentiate from the original but it's to vague unless your well versed in the history of house targaryen they should definitely integrate more recognizable symbols and names in the next season.
This. Give the symbols names and brighten up the colors. In its current state the opening has zero information value and functions purely as a guessing game for lore buffs.
that would have been better aye , maybe perfect even, tbf to them though, it never occured to me that that was what was missing
I feel like the kids are probably the characters we're going to be meant to like; they're thrust into this war by the follies of not only their parents but their grandfather, they're fed hatred of their own kin for the sake of political gain, and ultimately they have to fight to the death riding dragons that are arguably family to them. I feel like as we go on and as the Dance picks up we'll be made to support them in their tragedies, and that Rhaenyra and Alicent will become increasingly dislikable in large part because they're making their kids fight this war.
Remember when they stablished that all Baratheons had dark hair, then we got Shireen with blondish hair and perfectly legit? At least now, things are clearer. LMAO
At least they haven’t mentioned Rhaenys being Baratheon yet
Rhaenys hair is Black in the books. This would speak in favor of rhaenyra
Related, in the books, Rhaenys has black hair from her Baratheon mother
Westerosi genetics do seem to over-rely on taking someone's hair and going "Hey Bill, is this is more ash or chestnut?" "I'd say chestnut." "War it is, then."
@@merrittanimation7721 they sort of have mentioned it, back during the tourney in episode 1 when a Baratheon asks Rhaenys for her favour and she calls him cousin.
Non book viewer here. This episode was amazing it really brought everything together in terms of seeing where things are going. The kids proxy fight was helpful to portray the two sides
It doesn’t make it break the show but I did wish that we got just one or two more scenes for Laena and Harwin. Timeskips are totally fine for me, I got no issues yet but I am excited for when the timeskips ceases cause then you know it’s going to pop off.
personally, as someone who is deeply invested in HotD but hasn't read Fire and Blood, my jaw literally dropped when I saw Laena die by dragonfire. Mainly because I really liked what they presented of her character so far, but it was also cool to see how close her and Vhagar's relationship was, especially following Laena's conversation with her dragonless daughter. Still, I'm so sad she's gone already
In terms of likeable characters, I feel like seeing Daemon really grieve over the death of Laena after refusing to go ahead on cutting her open (in contrast to his brother Viserys) makes Daemon a lot more likeable to me. So not only is he a bad boy badass, he's come to develop a lot more complex and intimate emotions. Laenor is also on the top of my likeable characters list as well, because I can really see how the death of Joffrey impacted him even 10 years later, with how he named his (but not his) child after him, how he seems to find other lovers to fill the void, and how the parallel of him practicing with another man as he did with Joffrey back in Driftmark cements the fact that Joffrey was his first love and that he might be trying to find someone to cope within
Daemon has been one of my favorite characters from day 1 (surprisingly not because he’s played by Matt Smith), but I do *really* like the character development he’s been getting, and at this point I think he’s my favorite character, period.
I dunno, I don't think Daemon should get that many good guy points for refusing to murder his wife considering that he, you know, murdered his last wife.
I LOVED Harwyn Strong and Lyonel Strong - RIP I guess.
I quite like Rhaenyra for all the flaws she has. Especially in her younger version she has this fire and desire to explore life and prove herself and I can sympathize with that. That she is selfish and not really politically savvy makes it more interesting.
Same with Viserys - he makes soo many horrible decisions as king but I just love him as a person. (Apart from the fact that he continued to have sex with the obviously unwilling teenage Alicent)
I really liked Alicent in the first 4 episodes which makes her bitterness and unwillingness to compromise incredibly tragic to me
And I can't help but cheer for everything Daemon does, he is just too charismatic (except murdering his wife, that was cold)
Laenor is currently the most likable to me. In this episode he seems protective of his wife and (step) kids even though he knows how this whole situation makes him look. Immature, a bit self centered, but seems like a good dude.
Laenor is really chill, he’s just a guy enjoying his lavender marriage to the heir to the throne.
Idk, he seemed kinda like a doting idiot or a jock type char to me, totally insensitive to Rhaenyra and what she was going thru, thought he’d be sharper, more intuitive but I’ll wait to see his personality in more situations
Lmao dude can't even produce one heir in 10 years
@@jeromealday614 that's because he'd rather sleep with men than the wife he was forced to marry? 😂
The show runner said they're gonna stop with the time jumps in season 2. I haven't read the books, this season basically worked for me even before I knew it is the way it is to get us to the better stuff.
The time jumps should be over by ep 8 or 9. Just has to do with the source material being written as a history book.
Most of the first season is just build up so the time jumps do make sense
Episode 8 is the last major time jump of this series
Haven't read the book, the time jumps really don't bother me at all. I feel like the characters are introduced just enough for us (or at least me) to feel something toward them.
I really felt her death in that episode, how she begged her dragon for example. It spoke to me even though we barely knew her, and I think it's because we can directly relate to the death of the Queen in the first episode
It's also implied (or outright stated, idk haven't read the books) that Targs have a psychic-ish bond with their dragons. So the dragons they bond with can feel the pain of their riders, in a way. That's what got to me in that scene, was how you could tell what Vhagar was feeling despite not having any human features.
I don't know if it's controversial but I liked Laena's death. She knew she could die a long death with no agency or be cut open with no regard for her life, or take matters into her own hands and get a quick death, one befitting a dragon rider. Daemon showed his growth by not making those decisions for her and I felt his grief at her death as he went out to find her just as Vaeghar smoked her. So many women in this show have their agency taken when childbearing is put into the mix and she took her choice back.
I find Larys extremely likeable in a Disney villain sort of way
He has a very pleasant voice and mannerisms, even if the things he said at the end of the episode were almost comically evil. That being said, I'm not necessarily a fan of the "Only guy with a limp is evil af" -thing
"The poor kid just wants to feed the birds" was suddenly given a new meaning ...
😂 but it is the wrong kind of seed!
As someone who hasn't read the book, I definitely felt the exposition dumps in this book. A lot of the mother-son conversations took me out a bit, as if this was the first time she not only told him, but told in a way that was conveniently concise and to the point. But how I took that was more a feeling of deliberate urgency, I feel very much as if there is somewhere the show is wanting to take me and for the time being I'm very happy to hop on and let it go. So if the series pays it off, I'm fine with it.
Also ,also, kind of, kind of enjoying not rooting for anyone. This is a snakes nest of spoiled, entitled rich kids, I'm looking forward to seeing it all burn in delicious consequence.
I’m ok with time skips, I just wish they were better explained to the audience. I hate having to spend the first 30 minutes of an episode wondering how long it’s been since the last episode. But I understand why they did it this way and it was probably the right thing to do just not executed as great as I’d have liked.
usually they find a way to comment the amount of time that passed in the first 15ish minutes... In this case you have the point that Daemon has been gone for 10 years, in the 2nd episode Rhaenyra complains that it's been 6 months since her mother died, the next one you know Aegon is turning 2yo, so it's been at least 2y9m since the wedding...
But it does leave one kind of lost for a little while, yeah
You have to listen to the dialogue to know how long it has been
@@Darkstar_Dayne ya but that dialogue is buried like halfway through the episode. The amount of time that has passed effects EVERYTHING in the episode, I shouldn’t be sitting here for half an episode wondering wtf is going on because the show runners are too proud to put a “10 Years later” card up at start of the episode and instead cram an awkward line of dialogue in the first opening that won’t destroy the pacing of a conversation.
@@inesramalho5644 exactly, I know NOW how long has passed but when I’m trying to enjoy the show for a good portion of it I don’t, which is a problem if you want me to understand wtf is happening. I think this last episode was both the longest jump and it took them the most time to actually tell the audience how long it had been.
@@Darkstar_Dayne but why? Why is a show, its its opening act trying to set up a massive confrontation gatekeeping important information about its own character from the audience for nearly half each episode? Who gains from this? The writers have to shoehorn in awkward dialogue where character explicitly call out exactly how long it has been since the last episode, the audience is left wondering wtf is happening for the first 20 minutes, all so the show runners can get a seat at the “show don’t tell” alter?
I've read a song of ice and fire but not fire and blood. I'm very into the series and the pace it's not bothering me at all. I understand they are placing pieces to tell a larger story and they do it enough that I care for the characters
6:59 - YES. That was _very _*_much_* coming to mind for me too, as someone who hasn't read the books.
I really like her. I was looking forward to finally getting to spend a little more time with her. But instead, we just immediately killed her off. It was disappointing.
Especially after not getting to soak in the aftermath of episode 5, at all, either.
They should have given themselves just one or two more episodes and really let these events and timelapses ruminate or breathe or something.
I thought the kids were adorbs - even Aemon (mini-Chloe Sevigny). And it adds to the tragedy that Viserys's dream of a happy united family *was* possible. If the tragic destination is inevitable, it's not compelling - you need missed opportunities. And this episode shows that.
That said, I would've liked another episode to flesh out the story and add some softer, more human elements as you said. Also, I feel like we've missed a compelling part of Rhaenyra's character development. Because it's impossible to deny that her having three children with Harwin was politically-unwise. Why did she do it then, because she's not stupid. Was it because of love (she wanted *Harwin's*)? Was it because of arrogance (She should be able to behave like a man; she's a Targaryen, screw public opinion)? But the show hinted at love, then made her seem bewildered and surprised that everybody was gossiping about her when she'd had three obvious bastards. It didn't make sense to me so I'm going to just go with the love answer. Because the Blacks were all about love - that was a side where the familial love was strongest.
I got the impression that Laenor really didn't want to do anything in bed with Rhaenyra even just to get her pregnant. He was so cut up about joffrey's death (still shows ten years later) that it was the last thing on his mind, and Rhaenyra needed to get pregnant fast. I thought it would make sense for him to just masturbate and give her the semen. Or, since his family knew of his sexuality, go to Corlys and ask for some Velaryon semen to use since her husband couldn't do it. I think maybe seeing that process and the reasons behind the continued impregnation with Harwin would have been useful. Just the one extra episode to develop that maybe
I mean, she's had 2 dark haired children and everyone has avoided gossiping about it openly for years , Alicent only had a single conversation about it with the King in all that time & he shut her down & told her to never bring it up again, so the events of this episode are a change in the established status quo, Alicent being in a stronger position than before & taking a stand at the third child, challenging the King over it & discussing it openly with Criston , changed things at court, & so they react to the change .
Viserys is unnironically my favorite character, he's not power-hungry, he doesn't cares about anything, he just wants to play with his Old Valyria Lego build and chill, mad respect 👏
He would be an amazing grandpa if wasn't sick. B- king, but an A++ grandpa.
Given how ill he was shown in episodes 4 & 5, rotting in multiple places and collapsing all over the castle, I’m shocked he made it 10 more years. They made it seem like he had weeks to live
i probably would've liked him better if my eyes didn't bleed whenever i'm forced to look at him. i mean c'mon of all the diseases of this world why did they have to hive him the nastiest one? couldn't it have been tuberculosis or sth?
As someone who read the book, I think they are doing an amazing job at managing the timeline, but I understand why it must fall flat for people who came with a GoT expectation and who don't know how it will evolve... In GoT we had a lot of stuff happening in a lot of places at the same time, but in the end it all happens in a few years. In HotD everything is happening in the same place, with the same family, but it takes around 30 years, so they have a lot of time to cover, and that means sacrificing some things. I think that this duality is the reason for the two complaints I've seen (that it's too quick paced and plot beats aren't well developed, and that it's to slow and nothing is happening)
I’m a a casual viewer. I haven’t even touched a single book by the author, and I’ve only seen game of thrones.
I think the show isn’t too crazy out of line.
It was odd to see different people playing the same characters but I think they choose fine look alikes.
And since I’m aware of what this story is about I don’t mind these episodes playing out as they have been. The point of the views, based on what I know, is a family civil war, showing the moments that gave birth to that conflict I think is fine. I think the show has given, me anyway, enough context to understand why some of the characters, if not all, are angry about before the conflict begins.
It is kinda bothersome to see the rapid resolution on Harwyn and Laena's characters. What really gets me is that we never get to see Daemon insult the son of the Sealord of Braavos just to duel and kill him and then wed Laena. That was a critical moment that should have been covered. Same goes with the duel between Cole and Strong where Strong loses and takes on the title broken bones. Like I'm glad we get that little tussel between them but it wasn't enough. At first I thought that that scene was setup to their duel for later. Their duel could have better fleshed out Coles fall to the darkside as it were. And lastly the thing that irks me a little is that Cole doesn't have too much nuance or likeability. I really think given the ambiguity of his book character that there was definitely more to him than just a angry ex lover. He could have been a honor bound character that like Jaime and Ser Duncan the Tall painted in the nuances to knighthood. If his and Rhaenyras relationship had more time develop there could have been some really good heart in conflict with the self in him wanting to be with her but not wanting to dishonor himself. That's more minor, the Cole stuff, but the other scenes from the books with Laena and Harwyn should have been here. They are operating on so little source material just one or two chapters really for this first season I don't think they really can afford to leave anything out. I'm already longing for what those scenes could have been, particularly Daemon insulting this pompous son to the Sealord of Braavos just to kill him.
um, Cole almost killed himself over shame last episode , he had honour/dignity in his post back then , so that is in his character , & it's likely hes sworn service to the Queen , so there may be honour/duty in his behaviour this episode to undermine her son's rivals for the throne , not only spite , though spite certainly is there too
but aye, soo much of Daemon's story seems to have been skipped , we could have really done with an extra episode, though these last 3 all seemed very rapid in their progression through time & somewhat compressed , so that it makes some things end up being cut & there might be pay off for that in the rest of the series , but him racing Rhaenera to dragonstone, him being laughed out of his attempt to secure lands for himself , his duel to win Laena's hand , all would have been very nice to see in the series
I'm totally liking Larys strong in the show.
I can't help but see Harwin as a perfect captain of Gondor from Jackson's LOTR. And I felt genuine pain, seeing his end. His father was too loyal to the king, but sharing some kind of his weakness.
Laena is portrayed as a perfect match for Daemon. Both are daring, unique and strong, true dragon riders. I miss this brave daughter of Sea Snake already.
The show is great - you see some of the characters for few minutes during one episodes and still writers and actors were able to pour so much personality and nuance into those figures.
Writing here is second to none, House of the Dragon is a miracle of an adaptation. Great justice has been done to source material and yet approach is both creative and respectful.
It's not only good fantasy show, it's good story of well written characters. Sadly not all fantasy tv series today can be like HotD.
I wasn't a big fan of Thrones, both books and the show, but this I hella love.
I'm sorry, how is Rhaenyra not likable? Just because she asked her husband - who has been acting like a teenager presumably for a decade - to not galavant across the realm with his boyfriend and to stay with his family? Part of the reason why these rumors are rampant are because his behavior is also extremely brazen. Feels really harsh towards Rhaenyra when everyone else is miles worse than she is. Also, being likable and being a good guy are two different things. Daemon is extremely likable. Not nice. Not a hero.
I think I misspoke. I don't think Rhaenyra is *unlikable*, but I don't find positively likable (even though she has her moments, like when she said for Laenor to bring Qarl-that was really nice!). She's more of a neutral figure for me than a negative. I did mention I really liked her in the first half, and this episode they just made her a tad less so.
~ Tim
I definitely didn't appreciate how she questioned him on naming 1 of the 3 children, jabbed at him not being the one who had given birth and regarding him being the true father (while she's been having an affair with Harwin that's left them exposed to doubt and prying eyes) yet then said exactly the opposite ('you are their true father') when he was looking to leave? That doesn't excuse Laenor from his decade of debauchery but it seemed off that Rhaenyra first pushed him away when he tried to name one of 'his' sons, only to then force him back in when he looked to leave?
@@user-nv2wt4hi8t the point is he named the kid without talking to her first. Since she literally just gave birth 2 minutes prior and was bleeding all over the floor of the Queen’s bedroom, I think she can be forgiven for being annoyed that he named the kid without consulting her first. She also accepts it and keeps his name as Joffrey. Idk I think people are really not being fair to Rhaenyra here
@@leemiller29 exactly, Laenor was a doting idiot this episode and insensitive to what Rhaenyra was going thru. I’m surprised more people don’t see that
@@leemiller29 I can definitely appreciate that, as well the emotional and physical stress of being literally minutes post birth alongside having the growing tension of the Queen breathing down her neck, looking for bastards. I just did feel like, given again she was knowingly part of the same deal as him, sleeping with whoever they like, and it's from that, that Rhaenyra is now facing consequences, it seemed very off-base that she then totally did a 180 compared to just a few scenes earlier with Laenor, now calling him the 'true father' to emotionally leverage him, when just before she was acting the total opposite. It didn't seem like Laenor could win no matter what he did, within the boundaries of their agreement.
Alicent's change of character was so sudden,but I like that the writing
They are doing this time skip thing as good as they can.
Non-book reader here; I've read the main asoiaf books but haven't read fire and blood. re: your comment on plot points feeling like bullet points. I definitely felt the "bullet point" nature of the show the last couple of episodes, especially in episodes 4 and 5, to the point where I was considering giving up on the show. But e6 actually brought me back. Barring 1 or 2 subplots (eg. Laena), e6 was the first episode (except for e1) where the different subplots acrually felt weighty, like they weren't just a list of checkboxes. I'm hoping the show stays that way going forward, but who knows.
I have to say I think the choice to centre so much around the relationship between Alicent and Rhaenyra has proven to be a masterful decision. Because, yes, the reason why this sort of storytelling (full of time skips, events that are set up and quickly resolved, new characters that don't last very long) is because everything is anchored on that relationship/rivalry. This was foresight I couldn't imagine in the first episode and thought it was just an interesting change with some quirky changes in age gap.
I do love that the central characters are deeply flawed and those flaws are what keeps, sometimes inadvertently, exacerbating the tensions. I also enjoyed the progression of Alicent, who feels almost corrupted by a deep paranoia after everything that came before... That scene with Aegon was brilliant and even unsettling.
I don't mind the time jumps at all. I prefer to get this context despite modern convention being START AT THE ACTION because so many of my favourite stories bring me in gradually (gradual is distinct from boring, never be boring). Also I'm not sure Viserys is necessarily the most likeable - IRL women I've talked to about the show and I've said I've liked him have not forgiven him for the whole stabby stab no consent bit. Daemon, Young Alicent and Older Rhaenyra are my personal favourites.
I really wish they could have spent at least the entire first season to the prelude to war and did not rush to do things like this too soon. The time jumps give us no way to get to know a lot of these characters. They feel more like check boxes that have to be ticked in a to-do list, rather than a story organically playing out.
II have no sympathy for Criston Cole. He is perhaps the worst character in the entire piece. Alicent is passing her own trauma and hate to her children too, when her and Rhaenyra's children could be close instead. And while I feel for Rhaenyra, she has no leg to stand on either. She is selfish, entitled and brazen. Instead of shoring up her claim, he is just openly hacing bastrads weakening her own claim as well as that of her children. Daemon is a horrible person (but Matt Smith is killing it lol). And Viserys is a horrible king that will die and see his realm devolve into civil war. There's no one to cheer for in this war. At least until our boy Adamm gets here 😅
The only thing I had difficulty getting past was that we were shown absolutely no consequences for Criston Cole, a man who murdered the grooms best friend in front of everyone at a royal wedding. We see the queen adopt him and... that's that? No banishment to the wall, or expulsion from the Kingsguard, nothing that we see, anyway.
Imagine being Laenor and living in the same house as the man who killed your lover in front of you with his bare hands and received no real punishment.
I would have really liked it if we had actually seen Rhaenyra and Laenor / Daemon and Laena reconnecting and visiting each other or whatever for a while, almost even being-dare I say it?-kind of happy?? Just for a little while. Before tragedies struck and it all started downhill again, like a rude awakening. Or something.
the close up on the insignia on the murderer spies gave me a laugh too LoL
Haven't read the Book: For me it feels more like bullet points rather than a story. It feels like the writers going, "you got that? Understand what happened? Good we're jumping 3 years." And in that time no one addressed the bullshit left on the table. They just sat on grudges for that long. We speedran the relationship of the Princess and her Guard. They fucked once and next episode, two or three years had passed and their breaking up. I, personally, have no attachment to anyone. These are just people reading lines.
Indeed. Though I did like Lyonel Strong.
My favorite part of the first five episodes, was the relationship between Viserys and Rhaenyra, which I think made them more human. I wish they had one more scene or subtle hints in this episode to show whether they have drifted apart again the last ten years, and what they feel about that. I think it's nice that the characters are flawed, mostly because the show takes the effort to show why. A bit more relationship focus/scenes wouldn't hurt, but I'm happy with seeing Rhaenyra and Laenor understanding each other (from my perception of them), the different kids getting along (while bullying the other kid together), and something to show that the parents love their kids (like seeing Daemon teaching his kid the Valyrian language I think it was). Anything to make them human makes me happy I guess.
I think they've been handling the time jumps quite well, with us feeling the weight of it as children grow (and viserys gets increasingly horrifying). I think fully likable characters aren't a requirement, but I also worry that if they keep portraying everyone as a total heartless douche all the time, they lose the signature morally gray characters we've come to love from Martin's work. After all, the brutality and violence only pay off when set against a backdrop of love and kindness, so that we get the emotional shock of something good (ie precious) being ruined. Main conflict is being revisited and expanded upon at every episode, which is great.
It's weird how the show feels so slow yet so choppy. It's as if they don't have enough material to fill hour long episodes, but then jump ahead 10 years and short change half the characters' scenes so we can watch Viserys sitting for several minutes.
I think Rhaenyra's boys are pretty likable. They seemed nice and thoughtful in this episode, even though they did bully Aemond, but one has to think that Aegon was the ringleader. He's the oldest and the only real dragon rider among them so it makes sense that he would orchestrate that prank. In the book, they gave me sort of Robb Stark vibes. They're such good Strong boys.
Tbh I didn’t mind Aegon or aemond yet Aegon is just an annoying teenager and aemond is getting through to his demon time arc aha
I like the training yard fight scene. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't cinematic, it was just clumsy and loud as you would expect with kids but some of those blows would genuinely hurt. No stabbing three feet wide of the target or mid-air circus flips (ROP cough cough!)
Sounds like the writers should have gone for a flashback non-linear type narrative, with fewer main storylines closer to the present and at the end of the series the flashbacks and the present collide at last. That way we would have a bigger attachment to the main players, meaning house targaryen
As it is, I just don't care about anyone because everyone will meaningless and dead by the next episode.
Fun fact: immediately after the line about "the old monster rearing its head", the camera shows Viserys looking upward in response.
As someone who never read the books seeing Rhaenyra having kids by the one guy felt a little out of the blue but then it's like well she is married to a guy who would rather not breed with a woman but I mean couldn't she have just hooked up with Daemon so the kids aren't a glaring red flag to anyone who's not color blind? Daemon would have gotten what he want through the children he would have made through her. Rhaenyra was down bad for her uncle at one point.
This is a show based on the work of GRRM. I am here to watch the terrible people do terrible things to each other while I eat popcorn on the sidelines. I know what I'm getting into, and none of the characters have to be likeable for me.
Larys is putting off a little yandere energy with Alicent which is an interesting choice. It's probably not "love" though. He presented the Strongs as a peace offering and an investment in her but also a threat and an attempt to "dirty her hands" if she tries extricate herself from his grip. He's very bold and brazen with his "subtlety" in the show.
So far, I am loving the show. I haven’t read the books, but I do listen to podcasts and videos explaining the books, lore, and story line. For both shows (HOTD and GOT) if you don’t know anything about the books, there is much details you can’t appreciate. Having said that, I think they have done a great job telling this story. The time jumps have been well depicted and logical. I wished we could have seen Rhaenyra and Harwin talked to each other more confortable, but I think it was done like that on purpose. They obviously had a good relationship but also knew their places. Harwin knew and accepted that he couldn’t ask for claims and Rhaenyra kept her distance in public. The kids were meant to be fathered by Leonor and he was giving that authority. It’s sad really. Not easy for anyone involved. It’s so well done. Love it
um, it may follow through that Larys' agents do keep wearing Strong insignia , and so be dumb , but given the location at a House Strong stronghold, ie Harrenhal , it's actually a pretty decent disguise this episode
I think Rhaenrya and Daemon are very likeable.
I think what I dislike in this episode will be dependent on whether there’s another big time jump or not. If there isn’t, then I really don’t like how Laena and Harwin weren’t given another episode or two to develop. If there is, then hopefully their deaths play key roles in the stories of Daemon and Rhaenyra moving forward.
Also, contrary to popular opinion: I’m really digging Alicent!
“The kid just wants to feed the birds”
NO TIM
Rhaenyra is likeable (yet), Corlys and Rhaenys are likeable, Rhaenyra's children are likeable, Daemon's children are likeable, Helaena is likeable, there is A LOT of likeable characters, and there will be a lot more in season two...
Rhaenyra having to make Leanor stay shows the contrast of responsibility the two characters bear. They have an understanding but Leonor gets to have his partners without major consequences. Rhaenyra has to stress to him that in order for him to continue to enjoy all the privileges he has, he needs to be there as a father. The whole scene shows how Rhaenyra has to be the one to keep it together. I don’t think that makes her unlikeable.
I feel like we need that moral compass character (I thought it was going to be Harwin lol), for the other more 'grey' characters to contrast off. Otherwise we might be headed to a point where the shocking actions of those characters just become part of 'the way of the world' which isn't necessarily a good thing and could become stale quite quickly.
At 2:35 In one frame after "life long bonds" sentence from Vyseris,his face is in one frame incredibly reminiscent to that of the Great Pontiff from Berserk. Both of them are happy about what they think is happening, but don't really know what actually is happening.
I was not onboard for Rhea and Joffrey's abrupt and brutal murders last week. But I really like Rhaenera's relationship with Laenor. They listen to each other.
I also find the outrage at the princess having bastards hilarious. Like that's what you ordered!
I really like this series, and I like all of the characters. Having flaws or villainous streaks at this point in the story makes a lot of sense based on their histories and experiences. Alicent is a lot like Sansa, if Sansa had got the political education she needed growing up to maneuver court. Rhaenyra was advised by her uncle to enjoy being a princess, and the privilege that gives her. Her indulgences were encouraged, and so she indulged them. But now she’s facing peril because of those very decisions, and even though she hasn’t set out to hurt anyone, she comes to see that this is the price of her privilege as a princess, she doesn’t in fact have that freedom her uncle and father might have done. Her position as heir has been threatened by her own recklessness. Daemon’s growing complexity is also fascinating. His first marriage was loveless and scornful, his second makes him consider quitting court politics to become a homemaker. Laena loved him, and brought out the best in him, but she also reminded him that what she loved in him was his ambition, his greatness, his swagger. So he has a new relationship with that side of himself now. The offer of marriage between Alicent’s daughter and Rhaenyra’s son is a great solution and alternative to war, so seeing Alicent refuse that really pitted me against her. She has had my sympathy because she is so Sansa-like, she’s a genuinely good and dutiful woman trying to make her way and live by example. And like Sansa, she won’t concede to someone who has wronged her when she has the power not to. She won’t forgive Rhaenyra’s trespasses because of the depth of her betrayal, it cost Alicent her father and her best friend all in one go.
I also prefer this closed knit politicking to the overly expansive GoT, where every episode we’d rush all over the map to disjointed storylines. I honestly feel that these episodes are more thrilling and better held together.
“Pay attention to Helaena” honestly, I watch the show with my sister (who hasn’t read the books, though I have), and when Helaena said the thing about eyes I hooted like a fucking owl and rewound it to make sure I’d heard her right. Nice touch.
Personally I'm enjoying it all. I did definitely notice the speed with which things are moving. I was really shocked they killed off Harwin already but presumably they need to move on quickly.
I'm not really bothered that no one is "likeable." They're human and just overall very tragic. The two main protagonists, Rhaenyra and Alicent, are both entirely understandable in their motives to be honest. I feel like there's definitely a sense that both are being forced into their rivalry as much by their positions as by their petty personal grudges. So even though they're making mistakes and making it worse, the sort of grand prisoners dilemma of court politics means neither of them can safely lay themselves at the others mercy in case it is not forthcoming.
Essentially, without being too cliche, there are only two options in the game of thrones: you win or you die. Neither of them can safely forfeit and walk away because their heirs would always be a threat and would eventually be hunted down. So instead they're forced to stay at the centre of power fighting to consolidate their positions.
I think it's brilliantly executed overall and much harder to adapt than GoT when you consider the timescale. I'm thoroughly impressed.
As a casual viewer who hasn't read the books i've really enjoyed the series so far. I don't mind that certain beats/characters appear and resolve quickly or time jumps every few episodes. It feels appropriate, like we're getting much needed context and seeing the dominoes set up or learning how long certain tensions have been simmering. I'm committed to the idea of the long game and seeing the multi-generational tragedy that's being staged play out. Since I can only guess at what will happen it's a surprise when things wrap up in a way I don't expect or a character dies who I expected to be a bigger player, hell I expected the king to die already so it creates a lot of tension and anticipation. I find myself really paying attention to the characterization - who is making big moves that push the conflict closer, how do influences and experiences shape the players as they move closer and closer into open conflict, and since everything is so intimately and emotionally tied together how does that change the story when there are emotional outbursts that irrevocably alter the narrative. If something happens then resolves quickly it feels like the inclusion is part of a bigger puzzle tied to other characters and motivations we'll see moving forward. I don't mind the pacing being a little erratic as long as the larger story and motivations still make sense to me.
Thank you for this review, exceptional episode! But I truly wished we’d gotten more of Laena (aged her up just to flirt with Dawmon, then aged her up again Hisui to have Daemons babies and die w/o ever going home 😢) tho I respect her going out like a G! 👌🏿 Also, Laenor came off like a doting idiot, I expected him to be smarter and more regal. I also hope they give Allicent more her own ambitions like Cersei independent of her father’s or the whole scorned woman vibe, but I get it. ALSO also, Dunno why Harwin got removed from watch for attacking a knight while Criston beat a knight to death in court and punched Laenor smh nor why Larys brutally murdered his own family for a favor from the Queen like wtf? That was so left field, is he just like sadistic or psychopath??
So the Harwin thing is because his Dad is hand of the King and it wasn't the fight that got him kicked out but rather confirmations on the rumors he was banging the soon to be Queen.
@@robertblume2951 I don't that is it , because that would just confirm the fact that the children are bastards. He was removed because he attacked a kingsguard. A kingsguard is supposed to be above reproach, they are regarded as the perfect embodiment of knightly virtues so only the king is above them. That is why cole killing Joffery is not a big deal though I would have loved the show to establish the powers of a kingsguard. I guess they did answer it here. This show is the one of the best I have seen at using subtext at explaining things without ACTUALLY spelling things out.The cole killing Joffery scene was answered with that harwin-cole altercation without actually putting it to words.
@@adedayooyegunju828 They keep implying Rhaneara creating bastards is Treason which i why i took that as the answer. Why is Rhaneara and the hand afraid of the consequences of telling the king if not? Why does Rhaneara go into exile at the end of the episode if it was just a kingsguard's protections that caused the exile of Harwin?
@@robertblume2951 Harwin was removed from the city watch for attacking a kingsguard but why did he attack the kingsguard is the question
@@robertblume2951 No one exiled Harwin he was fired from the City Watch and his father fearing for his family's safety and to protect his grandchildren(Rhaeneyra's kids) wanted to leave so that the consequences could be contained somehow
I haven't read the books...and the time jumps are jarring. Just when I was getting comfortable with all the characters, we get reintroduced to their older selves...and now that you said they are going to do another time jump, I'm really unsure. I kind of wish they had picked a better starting point, and then introduced all the background story another way. It's like trying to fit a season or two of back story into a few episodes. I am glad I didn't wait until they were all available for binge watching...
I believe it's pretty clear at this point that HoTD and F&B timelines are different from one another. One thing that jumped at me in this episode was Daemon and Laena's 'placement', since they were still in Pentos when she passed, whereas, in F&B, this takes place in Driftmark. In situations such as this, which telling of the events should be considered 'the truth'? Seeing as Archmaester Gyldayn's chronicles were written with official records as a foundation (mostly), I found it odd to see such a drastic change.
Maybe if not for sentimental reasons, Daemon wanted Laena around because the full-time child rearing would take away from his reading time/freedom. He’s definitely engaged when it comes to teaching the Valyrian history he’s immersed himself into, to the daughter who is a dragon rider. But the “father ignores me” line from the other daughter implies that he might not be as invested as he should be as a parent.
No likeable characters, but lots of comprehensible ones (in the sense that you can see the cause and effect of how they came to be the way they are). Except for Larys and Ser Criston
I haven't read the book, although I think I will after this season is completely released. I'm enjoying this setup, but this episode also felt the most hurried in terms of character development for me as well. My roommate, who has not read the book, said to her it's feeling like an anthology more than a single cohesive story.
In terms of likeable characters, I do like (or at the very least really enjoy watching) Rhynaera,. Her story just speaks to me. Struggling with selfishness and how to balance her own desires with the demands of monarchy and the people around her.
The difference between young Alicent and older Alicent is really striking, and feels like a very believable arc. I don't like her anymore, but understand exactly where she's coming from.
My heart breaks for Viserys honestly. Rhaenyra is that last thing Viserys has that reminds him of the Lady Aemma. He does not and has never loved Allicent and seeing him kiss Aemma’s ring and sob genuinely broke my heart. I’m not ready to let go of Viserys, Paddy Considine finally getting worldwide recognition is amazing.
I love Rhaenys and Corlys! And I think it's more important for me to find one character to hate the most. Right now is Criston Cole
I really enjoy the show, but I do feel like they could have used another episode or lengthened episode 5 or 6 a bit. The main issue as I saw it was that we didn't see the start of Harwin's affair with Rhaenyra and we didn't truly see the consequences of the murder of Joffrey in ep. 5. I think the consequences for Ser Crispin could have been handled in just one scene with Alicent stopping Westerling from intercepting him as he left the room and saying she would deal with it. We also didn't see enough of Laenor's hatred for Crispin, which surely existed. I think a few more scenes with Harwin and Laena also would have helped make their deaths more impactful. But I know why they're pacing it the way they are.
I think there's a big difference between liking a character and thinking they're a good person. I like Daemon. But he's a truly awful person. I like Viserys and Rhaenyra and they are probably the least bad major characters but even they have their moments. Rhaenyra can be dismissive and rude while Viserys can be a little on the stupid side sometimes. And the """villains""" of the show are understandable in their motivations and are still innately human. It's just that some characters tend to reflect the darkest traits of humanity. So I really enjoy most of the major characters regardless of their morality. I'm happy to see Larys on screen because he's a fun and interesting character. Also my understanding from the lore is that it was extremely likely that Larys played a part in the fire that killed his brother and father. Even with his relationship with Alicent being less explicit in the book, he still benefited greatly from their deaths. So it would have been really hard to make Larys more likeable considering his actions. He's far more like a Littlefinger than a Varys (despite Larys only borrowing the L from Littlefinger), especially if we're looking at Varys from the show.
All in all I don't care if there's "good guys" in what I'm watching, and I think it makes it more true to life and the characters more interesting.
I wish they weren’t rushing so fast to get to what’s kind of considered the main part of the “historic” story it’s based on. I’d have liked to spend more time with characters like Laena and Harwin. It’d be nice to have a couple seasons in these essentially prologue times slowly building to the conflict ahead.
about the last thing you said. I think we can see the show as the confirmation of the book. we were given different possibilities of some events in the book because the maester who wrote it didn't know for sure. like why did Rhaenyra and Cristin Cole end their friendly relationship? well now we have it confirmed, it was because she refused his marriage offer. so in that way we can say for sure that it wasn't Daemon or Viserys who were responsible for the Strongs' deaths, it was in fact Larys
I had no idea what was going on at first....but mainly due to the shock of casting changes & the uncertainty that the king just collapsing to end the last episode...and was just fine 10 years later.
I mentioned once before about the lack of interaction between young toddler Aegon and his parents, but now in contrast, Alicent gives Aegon far more attention, except it’s always to scold him. It gets sadder
As a show watcher who hasn't read the books / doesn't know what's going to happen:
If I'm rooting for anyone at this point it's Rhaenyra - now that she's moving to Driftmark, I think it would be a good writing move to see Rhaenyra and Laenor become closer. They may not be in love, but they are family and they have a lot in common. They're also two lonely "progressive" people in a world that doesn't share their worldview, and they will need one another to survive.
I also think it would be a satisfying arc to see these two self-sufficient and perhaps prickly individuals (who've been traumatized by their respective experiences with love and friendship) learn to lean on someone else.
Idk Rhaenyra wanting her husband to be buy her side for support is really understandable to me.
I have no issues with the characters not being likable. It’s fully expected and especially in this type of scenario. It does not impact my enjoyment of the show. In fact, I am enjoying it very much. I can see they are building the context around what is going to happen later. I love world building and lore, so they are doing just that - setting the stage.
Rhaenyra vs Alicent does feel like a strong enough tension throughout, and the introduction and loss of characters around them so quickly is totally fine and is just adding more to the tension.
Overall Rhaenyra is still a likable character and I am rooting for her to succeed. They are also doing a very good job with showing how complex Daemon is and his growth and making him somewhat likable or at the least very enjoyable to watch his journey and where it is going.
I really liked Alicent's new actress. Seems like a natural time skip maturity for that character. I also like Alicent as a character (I'm aware she's not so much the "good guy").
Not so sold on Rhyneara's new actress quite yet. Seemed a little wooden, not sure if by design or not. I get that she's obviously not going to stay the rebellious teenager (at least in some aspects), but still.
Daemon is becoming more likable, Viserys has always been a good guy (but yeah he's croaking very soon). Laenor is a likablish character, but I feel like he's going to be more like Robert Baratheon in personality (read: completely useless).
Discount Peter Baelish is a bit too on the nose. I wish they had dialed him back a little.
Cristen Cole's I'm reserving judgement on. He just seems petty (not without reason, admittedly, but I feel like he should dial it back with Rhyneara's kids, although not sure how much contact they'll have since she moved to Dragonstone).
Haven't read the books, so this all just speculation on my part.
I didn't read the books and am avoiding as many spoilers as possible.
Yes I can confirm some things feel they are going by too fast, but that is not always a bad thing, especially if we're taking about death. When Laena died, for instance, I had to pause and process what I had just seen and almost couldn't believe it. But then the sadness hit, largely because I felt she was taken too soon!
It left me tearful through the entire rest of the episode, so if an emotional gut punch and enduring sense of loss was what they were going for, they pulled it off.
It also fit well that she said she wanted to die like a dragon Rider and then made it happen as best she could given the circumstances.
Rather than the pacing, the only truly annoying parts of HOTD, for me, are the blatant exposition moments that make it seem like the writers think we are stupid.
Like, what kind of sense did it make to have the men with no tongues wearing the symbol of Larys if we were going to see him talking with Alicent about being behind the murders anyway?
He also had an eye roll line during the wedding, talking about lighting the beacon. Stupid nonsense. Just having him grin would've been plenty and even that isn't necessary.
Book or no book, we are not dumb.
After this episode, I often think about Viserys' conversation with Lyonel Strong about how Viserys wished he was being tested during his reign as king and Lyonel replies that Viserys would have no way of knowing how things would have turned out if Viserys was tested by some great conflict and that usually the kings who are tested often wish they weren't.
It's particularly poignant because Viserys doesn't realize he was being tested throughout the latter years of his life in a way that will have far more devastating consequences on his family, and Westeros than most wars would have ever had if he had fought in one in his own lifetime. Letting Daemon run around the way he did, relying a little too much on Otto Hightower and not recognizing the schemes he was pulling until Rhaenrya literally had to point it out, never really finding the balance between appeasing the other Houses by aiding them with their problems and keeping them reined in from letting their ambitions put their Houses ahead of all others (especially HIS OWN), and marrying again and fathering a son even though he already named Rhaenyra his heir were probably the biggest and most important among the myriad of tests throughout his reign and, even though his reign was relatively peaceful and prosperous, he ultimately failed almost every one of them, even if he did end up addressing them in some way.
Good kings can keep things peaceful and prosperous, but there's a good reason why any king who does not adequately, and *quickly*, address internal problems tends to not live very long, get ousted by another dynasty, and/or have their reign marked as the end of their kingdom's golden age and the beginning of its downfall.
Yeah I was disappointed with the direction they took Criston Cole to. It felt very petty and basic. I wish they explored more about his duty as a knight vs his feelings for Rhaeneyra and bring his conflict there. The idea of Love is death of duty vs Duty is death of love. Or maybe his affection for the princess was more of flirty courtly love, but when she made her advance, it became all to real or something. That would have been an interesting story.
Allicent is a mother in name only. She doesn't seem to particularly love her kids.
Characters with horrible traits can be likable imo, Game of thrones was full of them and we still loved them, Tywin was cruel, mean and power hungry and yet he's a fan favourite. And considering this is the tragedy of a civil war within the same family, they all need to be at each other throats and bring the worst out of them to make the conflict; that doesn't leave much room for obviously likeable traits in character.
I actually found myself weirded out by the decision to not use the "morning after tea" that was introduced in the last episode, even thought it was consistent with the story from the book. If this tea exists then it strikes me as odd that a character like Rhaenyra would allow herself to have 3 kids she knows won't look like her and Laenor. But this is all opinion.
Finally catching up on these, and I wonder if time jumps would have been better in between seasons, so that way there's a kind of closure before we get jumped 10 years forwards.
As someone who hasn't read this book and doesn't really know what's to come (outside of the general civil war, as I've avoided most spoilers on the details of it), I have been quite enjoying this show but this was the episode where the time jumps seemed to actually hurt the storytelling. As I've said in comments on other videos, the main problem I have is that there was such a substantial shift in the status quo that this episode spends a majority of its time simply trying to catch us up and introduce us to the new players (the kids, who I absolutely hate so far, though Daemon's daughters were fine in the few seconds they were on screen) and because the uneven application of recasting and aging makeup (some characters have had 3 actors since the premiere, some only 2, others have 1 but get makeup, and Matt Smith is an unaging Timelord) makes it hard to tell how much time really has passed - when it's only a few months or a couple years, that's not so bad, but at least a decade is pushing it - and I'm having a harder time telling how old characters are actually supposed to be (doesn't help that Milly Alcock looks really young for her age while Emma D'Arcy looks a bit older than 30).
I haven't minded the fast resolution to plotpoints because each episode has seemingly focused on a major event, but this episode felt to me like it focused too much on the catch up and introduction so the actual important incidents were pushed to the sides (specifically the opening scene and the ending few).
Since you bring it up, I'll honestly say only a few characters really came off as likable to me (this episode): Viserys because he seems to be a man trying to be good he's just not really that great at it, particularly given his circumstances; Harwin, who seemed to value his kids and lover and treat them well; Laena, who was really a standout for me this episode, so it was sad to see her go; and Daemon, who continues to come across in such a nuanced way, with this episode suggesting he really does like and care for Laena at least to a certain extent even if she isn't really who he wants and his life isn't really what he wants even if he doesn't actually know what it is he wants, and has only been able to connect with one person: his niece. It's not necessarily a thing that'll drive me away from the show, but we'll see how it continues.
There is another time jump because the war itself starts when the baby that was born this episode is like 8 years old.... plus Rhaenyra has two more kids that aren’t even born yet. I really like how they showed clearly that Aegon does NOT want his sisters throne, is not antagonistic towards his nephews and it’s only when Alicent gets her claws into him, the same way her father did to her, does he come around. As far as likable characters... honestly they aren’t really likable in the books either, Daemon is sort of a funny rogue but definitely is problematic and even Rhaenyra, who I cheered for in the books and this show, is kind of awful as time goes on. The most likable characters are people like Nettles and Benjicot Blackwood who won’t be introduced for quite awhile. Corlys might be the most likable character in the books at this moment in the story
To quote John Green from one of his crash course videos on the Great Gatsby: A character doesn't have to be likable to be interesting
Hi Tim,
I really enjoy your HOTD break down videos a lot, i never fail to rush to watch them after the episode !
I haven't read the Book, and personnally I don't really mind not having likeable characters stick around for long - although that may change once Viserys is gone. I feel their portrayals excel in making you care enough - i won't be getting over Laena's death anytime soon - and not just have them as main characters' motivation devices. Also i'm quite okay with the Time lapses and the cast "Crownisation", if I may, especially since It's not for everybody.
Thanks to your opening title credit video, It's really helpful!
Is it just me or doesn't Larys remind anyone of Rohan's Wormtongue?
I like to imagine the series is paced the way it is, is because it’s being seen through the eyes of Bran Stark as he speed runs through history to see for himself how it really went down hence the time skips
I'm not entirely sold on the premature incineration of Harwin Strong. I think the fratricide would have had more impact if we had more time with each brother on-screen first. Still loving the show though.
I get why they're doing the time jumps- they're covering the bases to get us to understand everyone's motivation in the civil war to come, and I think they're doing a good job with it. I think they could have benefitted from one extra episode to flesh out Rhaenyra's impolitic choices for the father of her children. Like, did she try and fail to get Laenor to impregnate her in his grief, did she try other avenues? Were people starting to talk about her absence of pregnancy? I would have thought since Laenor's parents knew about his sexuality she might have approached Corlys/ Rhaenys and ask for a Velaryon semen donation due to the issues Laenor was having, did she try and it not work? Was he unwilling to just masturbate and give her the semen? Also others note about Daemon's acquisition of Laena fighting the sea lord of Braavos, that could be included. And the descent of Alicent and Criston, how did they develop this level of bitterness. Just one more episode to flesh out those points, I would have thought would be useful.