You can stop correcting me on a few things in the lore. I know I mixed up. I had to make this video far quicker than normal. What did you think of the accidental chomp? ~ Tim
I like how it connects to first episode. The idea we control the dragons is an illusion. Which has some truth when comparing dragons to weapons of mass destruction.
Do you think its okay, that the show writers intend in almost all episodes to paint this conflict as an unintentional accident on everyone's part? it seems too on the nose and blatantly crafted and i personally refuse to absolve Alicent and Aemon of blame due to their abhorrent behavior of constantly instigating conflict rather than being willing to get on The Targaryen's good sides. particularly given that Jace and Helaena's marriage seemingly would've stopped all of this i think, and Alicent refused for seemingly no reason, Besides spite. I've never disliked any of these characters, but nothing has made me sympathize with anyone. So it seems pointless to make Luke's death accidental. The actions they take in the leadup is what's causing the tragedy. they're already being self-indulgent, self-important twats it doesn't matter if context makes them slightly less of one.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Luke, being younger and obviously more insecure in himself, wouldn’t be able to properly control Arrax who was trying to fight off a danger to himself and his rider. And likewise, it wouldn’t matter what Aemond said, Vhagar was attacked and wasn’t just going to let that go even though all Aemond wanted was to scare Luke, drive him to the ground and take an eye at most. It’s never been established in book or show that the kind of bond Targaryens have with their dragons is comparable to wargs who enter the bodies of animals. It’s a link but the beast and rider are still very much separate so if Vhagar feels angry about being attacked, she’s not going to care about Aemond’s desire to avoid escalation of a political conflict.
I like it on its own as a scene for Aemond. However throughout the show they build up perfect tension and stakes only to undercut it with different reasons. The usurping was already cool but they needed to have Alicent misinterpret Viserys' last words which is far less compelling. The prophecy motivation isn't as compelling for Rhaenyra as her other motivations. The show undercuts their perfect setup by focusing on a weaker element and so when the chomp scene turned into an accident I was just tired of it. "Oh, another decision that got undermined by a lower stake than they had perfectly setup." I still think chomp on its own works, just felt underwhelming in sequence, though still awesome overall.
I think similar to Alicent being the only one to hear Vicerys' last words that "Aegon should be king," I doubt many people would believe that the chomp was simply an accident, when so many people witnessed Aemond storming off on a dragon to take Lucery's eye. I think having the war start because of an accident really makes this story more of an inevitable tragedy, because the real cause of it wasn't the actions of a single person. It was the entire family's distorted image of their own power that led to this war.
I was less bothered by this accident, because it really wasn’t an accident as such - Aemond was playing with fire, and things got out of control. Yes, he didn’t mean to kill Luke, but he was utterly reckless with his life so was completely responsible regardless. This showed how your own reckless actions can have terrible consequences well beyond what you might intend, and I think that’s a lesson with a strong thematic resonance throughout the story. If you juggle grenades, don’t be surprised if someone - everyone - gets hurt.
It makes sense to me that Deamon is planing the war, while Rhaenyra gives birth. He lost Laena in childbirth and probably does not have the curage to face the same prospect again. So he throws himself into something he knows well and he is good at: war.
He's a man that responds to things that make him uncomfortable or angry with furious violence. That trait makes him useless in a situation like a botched childbirth. He knows better than to even go near it, so yes, he needs to distract himself, because there's nothing he can kill to fix the situation. You can see his feeling of impotence when he falls to his knees in the surf after the baby is confirmed dead.
I loved the accidental nature of the chomp. I feel like the longer the show can make every character sympathetic, the more powerfully each tragic step in the conflict is felt. I am left feeling heartbroken for the victims of the chomp, and still feeling a sadness for Aemond. too, forever changed by this event.
Interesting take because to me I feel like they’ve been systematically ruling out every character as sympathetic, I think Luke may have been the last one left apart from Helaena who I found sympathetic- no clue what they’re doing with Jacaerys, is he a dick is he not, can’t tell
@@JHannah-sl2iy I think Jacaerys is very serious about his duty and can seems to be a dick in the training scene with his brother, but this is the response to Aemond being so brillant in combat and threatening them constantly. He's afraid of Aemond and possibly Aegon and wants him and his brother ready cause he cares about him.
@@moruemourue9692 yeh I am hoping Jacaerys is a good one, we just only tend to see snippets of him so far and in those snippets he’s sometimes a dick sometimes not like you said, will be interesting to see properly what his character is like in season 2! It’d be nice for him to be an heir to route for.
Daemon choked Rhaenyra when she brought up the song of ice and fire, the secret among Targaryen kings and their heirs that his brother Viserys never once thought him worthy enough to share with. That's the reason. His frustration with Viserys, his denial of heirship, trust and love of his brother, and his jealousy over Rhaenyra all coming together into a complicated emotion that he can only let out in the one way he knows how: violence. Anger is easier for Daemon to access than to sit in his emotions.
While I agree that all these emotions and notions were in play in his head, I think the main one you missed was that Daemon didn't want Rhaenyra to rule like Viserys, to be passive like Viserys. I see Daemon as having a bit of Lady Olenna in him, "You're a dragon, be a dragon." Daemon also believes Viserys passed him over because of the petty counsel of others, especially Otto Hightower. So, Daemon really does not want to be passed over for his entitled seat of power (as King consort) again because of the schemes and shenanigans of Otto Hightower.
@@noonyakaleka2098 i totally agree! It was like Daemon was choking the bit of his older brother out of rhaenyra when she spoke of prophecies. Which is interesting because i think Daemon would’ve been very interested in any prophetic dreams any Targaryens have. Since he is so invested in his Targaryen lineage
@@noonyakaleka2098 Sure. I did call out his frustration with Viserys, which is what you described in so many words. Daemon was frustrated that Viserys was weak and that his weakness allowed others to prey upon him.
I got the impression he didn't like her thinking of lore at a time like this. While i know the importance of that lore and respect her restraint... my first reaction would be to make a statement! Especially after what news of this usurping did to her!
I feel like it was less jealousy and more frustration at Rhaenyra making the same mistakes as Viserys. For better or worse, Viserys passiveness allowed the Greens to take power and put Aegon 2 on the throne. And a big reason for that passing was Viserys belief in prophecies. And now Rhaenyra is making the same mistakes. I know its sounds bad and less honorable but Daemon had the right idea. If they wanted to win the war quick they had to arm their dragons and kill the greens directly as soon as possible. With collateral damage bieng just an unfortunate by product. But Rhaenyra instead tries to sue for peace just like Viserys because she too believes in unsubstantiated prophecies. And just like Daemon had predicted, it results in her kid's death. I understand that guy must genuinely be tired and frustrated of seeing his crumble over the years.
I loved the way Aemond lost control of Vhagar, because, as someone who rides horses, there is always those moments where they bolt or rear and you have that terrible realization that you never had true control of them. It felt very realistic and one of the best portrayals of animal nature.
I would argue the “accident” which occurred with Aemond and Lucerys was still the result of character choices. Aemond still ultimately choose to hunt down and taunt Luke to the point that Arrax was terrified.
Exactly. One thing that seems to be a recurring theme in the shows is that the consequences of our choices always reach beyond what we wanted in the first place. It is just fitting that Aemond did neither kill Lucerys purpose, nor did Vhagar flew up to chomp on Arrax without being induced to by Aemond. Aemond made a choice and the consequences were beyond his control. Same thing for everything bad that happened in the show.
Lucerys still brought a KNIFE to ambush Aemond and then kicked him while he was down with 3 other kids. He tried to kill Aemond. And then at dinner with the King he still bullies Aemond with the pig!
@@BronnBlackwater About the knife, I agree. But they were stupid children. About the pig, I don't agree that he was "still bullying Aemond". It was a silent laughter, kind you have when you remember the stupid shit you've done when you were a kid. He probably didn't even mean it as an insult to Aemond, he just laughed at the memory. Maybe he'd thought Aemond was already over it (he wasn't, but I don't blame him as well, it seems his present arrogance is a direct effect of how inadequate he felt and was made to feel when he was a kid).
I very much believe that Aemond will take full responsibility and be like "yeah I killed him, so what? He was a traitor." Even if he doesn't mean it, he's going to keep acting tough, as to show remorse is to show weakness (in his mind.)
I hope we get to see him go to his sister for comfort when he ll be seen as kinslayer and starteding the war. Showing them having a strong relationship would hit so much harder for what's coming.
It's better to be thought ruthless, dangerous, and a warmonger, than weak, incompetent, and unreliable. I mean... starting a war by accident impresses no one.
Imo, Aemond not intending to kill Lucerys could serve as a good contrast for later in the Dance, where he might have a similar scenario where he doesn't hold back after all the bloodshed
I don’t think there were any accidents in the last scene. His actions led directly to the outcome. People make terrible decisions every day that lead to unintended outcomes. Just as a person drives a car after drinking, they got in, turned the key and took off. I’m sure they don’t intend to hurt anyone but they’re tossing a coin with their actions. Great videos! I enjoy them
I disliked the change initially because it robbed Aemond of some of his agency but I like it more and more as I think about it after the episode and a rewatch. We were always told that Dragons are not pets only to continue portraying them as such, handwaving whatever they did outside of their rider's control. Yeah, Drogon killed kids but as always, civvies don't matter when a girlboss' pet does them in. This was the first time that we get the full consequences of uncontrolled dragons and it feels like a punch in the gut. This war was all but assured because two kids forgot that they ride fully formed personalities
I also liked it because Aemond is still young.... Like, I don't think he is 20! It's more plausible to me that he did something impulsively, without thinking about every outcome possible and it went south on him... It felt like a kid who just got a new car and decides to race someone at a red light, does dangerous manœuvre that send the other driver crashing...
Sometimes war happens by accidents made by immature, irresponsible people...Aemond is an example of this. This conflict started by the succesion conflict and things became worse after time. A snowball became an avalanche and it's pretty tragic.
Those last 15 minutes had me shaking with the tension. You know what's going to happen, but the build up was soooo tense. I love the dragons being their own characters. As others have said, dagons are not slaves.
Daemon: Mutilates hundreds of criminals, almost beats a messenger to death, grooms his niece in a plot to take the throne, murders his estranged wife. Daemon fans: Oh Matt Smith is such an amazing actor! Daemon: Chokes Rhaenyra. Daemon fans: *surprised pikachu face*
Whatttt? You mean the toxic bad boy - she can still fix him though - would turn out to be an abusive partner?! In the immortal words of Deji, “I had no knowledge of any of this! This is so… bizarre!”
Yep Typical feminine way of looking at people. Females love bad boys...while they are bad to everybody else...but dream of taming them. So when deamon is a bit violent to rhenyra...the female protagonist...everybody is upset
I don’t know think bringing up Daemons other violent outburst is really a could example. He’s not a good dude, and I believe the book version would not hesitate to choke Rhaenyra. However the show version has had many opportunities and much more reason to inflict violence on the people he cares about, and he never does up until now. Best you could say is all the events happening at once pushed him over the edge, even then it feels like a stretch.
@@hhhggbg3000 Just because he can doesn't mean he will and that in of itself isn't a declaration that he is good nor bad. Daemon strikes me as the type who, although prone to violence and anger, is a self-serving man. He can bottle up his emotions if it'll serve him in the moment. I view him not doing harm when he could as just that, him holding out because it doesn't gain him much. But here, when he strangles Rhaenyra, he basically is upset with her because she refuses to go to war even though he desperately wants one. Further more she informed him that his brother, the late king, had a great big secret that he shared with only Rhaenyra. That is a blow to his pride and one issue to many. So, after bottling up for so long, he snaps and begins to choke out Rhaenyra. I do think he loves her in his own way - but he literally groomed her so he could take the throne. Power is and always will be his first mistress.
I mean, he said he'd rather kill his sons than see them on the Greens and I don't think that was hyperbole. From what I've seen I don't think Daemon is a very good father or husband. Don't get me wrong, he loves his family, but he's too impulsive to really pull himself together and change in the way a man needs to change to be a better family man. I think the choking scene is important for us, and Rhaenyra, to know that he is a more loyal ally and soldier than spouse. I kinda hope this leads to tension between the two as Rhaenyra, I think, has really downplayed how much of a flawed person Daemon is.
I understand the issue with "accidents" in driving this plot forward but I feel this one enhances the story being told. The rest I agree were unnecessary and seemed to detract from the story but this one makes things more interesting. It's a microcosm of what the show has been portraying the Dance as, a tragedy that could have been avoided. Also, Aemond himself is more interesting now rather than feeling purely like a Daemon knockoff.
I think the accidental chomp is the only accident/coincidence that works really well for me. The other accidents/coincidences don't necessarily ruin the show for me, but they kind of pull me out of it as I feel the hand of the author pushing the story in the direction that it needs to go. The accidental chomp is great though. It really shows the danger of giving these children the equivalent of nuclear weapons, of course they're going to do dumb stuff and it will inevitably lead to tragedy. Both of the kids are yelling no, attempting to convince these beasts of war to not go to war. You can tell that Aemond knows how badly he's fucked up, great performance by the actor.
It reminds me a lot of the first world war, in a way. Incompetent leaders bullied by hawks and one thing leads to another and they lose control. I wish the incompetence was more apparent though. I would have loved to see more pf Viserys or Otto running circles around him.
Beesbury did not feel like an accident to me, Criston did not seem shocked or surprised when his head cracked open. Felt more like they decided to film it in a way that Criston has some amount of deniability?
I wonder if, as the war intensifies, Aemond will be driven to act ever more recklessly and brutally, to live up to the reputation he's going to get after this. Now that he's done this, it would almost be worse to admit he didn't do it deliberately. Much better to be thought a murderer and a monster, than just a boy who lost control of a situation. There's power in being thought cruel and ruthless, there's no power in people thinking you're weak and incompetent.
As a historian in training I died a bit in side when you said “it’s written like a history book with biases” 😭 we get practically flogged to to learn to write without bias in grad school. I know what you meant by the comment my scholarly trauma just kicked in 😅
I kind of agree that I didn't really like having Criston accidentally kill Beesbury, but making Alicent and Aemond a bit more sympathetic at the start are not bad changes in my opinion. I especially liked the accidental chomp in this episode. Already wrote a fairly long defense of it on Daniel Green's video, so I'm not going to bother doing it again :D
@@MiraTheWarlock I wasn't talking about Joffrey. I meant Lord Beesbury in the Council scene where he it's framed as him trying to push the old man into sitting back down but puts too much force into it
I think Daemon chocking Raenyra was meant to show that, despite the calmer and more empathic we've seen him grow into over the second half of the season, he still holds the brutality and determination we saw in the first half. I hope they really explore that dynamic between Raenyra and Daemon in the future. It makes the civil war feel less "good guys vs bad guys" but instead a conflict between a grey heap of characters you're not sure who to root for.
I’m intrigued by the idea of making this a more unintentional thing. I think the change *away* from cruel decisive action is going to inform that kind of action for Aemond later on in The Dance. He has to decide now how to take ownership of what happened. And it’s not easy. On one hand he can admit that he lost control over his dragon after he taunted and chased his nephew like a villain in a slasher film. On the other hand, he can lean into it, say that he had every intention of killing Luke, and embrace being a kind later and igniting war in a very literal way. I don’t think that Otto or even Aegon would want to make it known that the Greens don’t have complete control of a gigantic flying weapon of mass destruction, and I don’t believe Aemond’s pride would allow him to admit it either. Imagine the inner conflict that drives his angler and frustration as he leans so hard into the stigma that he actually becomes it instead of just pretending to.
"I took a calculated risk, but boy am i bad at math" - Aemond, probably I am loving the characterisation of dragons as autonomous beings that are not fully being controlled by their riders - Vhaegar chomping him in a mildly awful way reminded me of my American Staffy puppy chomping a butterfly and then spitting it back out in disgust (they don't taste like butter) 🤣😭 it was a beautiful Bambi moment where it landed on her nose and then she CHOMP
I personally really like the choice to have Lucerys' death not be intentional on Aemond's part, in part because of the way it reinforces that idea that dragons are extremely dangerous and not disposed to being controlled, and in part because it presents Aemond with another really interesting choice. He can go back home and tell the truth, which means admitting that he cannot control his dragon, something which would be utterly humiliating for any Targaryen, but especially Aemond, or he can lie and take credit for Lucerys' murder and be branded as a Kinslayer, which in this world is one of the most shameful things you can be.
I haven't read the book, but accidents happen in life. Historians try to find purposes and links, thinks that lead from point A to point B. But I like that this series puts at the center that people don't control everything (their destinies?) and that... Shit happen. It's pure tragedy and I like it a lot! So the chomp: very good (he was still trying to bully ''his nephew'' to take his eye. It was still his intention. And I like that the Green, who, except Alicent, don't have very likeable characters, have moments of ''not so evil'' (the: oops, I didn't mean it is so humane, I liked it). It breaks the good and bad opposition that has been built since the 2nd half of the series.
I never read the books, but when it was showing Lucerys being afraid and uncertain about having responsibility, it gave me a strong feeling he was going to die. I feel accidents in life are most likely to occur when people are either very complacent, or hesitant/uncertain in what they do. I thought the episode was very well done, it hurts to see the kids being dragged in to things they themselves don't really want, how little petty events in childhood can grow into something horrible, tangling everyone barely involved. What could've been, if there wasn't a prank? Maybe some other reason for bloodshed.
Here are some decisive, unaccidrntal moments that changed the plot (as there are no shortage of them): Aemond stealing Vhagar, Rhaenyra sleeping with Sir Criston, Larys killing his family, Viserys hobbling into the throneroom, as I think his support for her imbued Rhaenyra with a big portion of the zeal that drove her through the Dance.
Aemond seems like he's gonna claim credit for Lucerys's death. So far he's been shown to be very self conscious of his image and he's spun what would normally be insults to his advantage (like getting his eye cut out by someone younger than him). At best I think he'll say it was an accident if it's pressed by someone he trusts (like his mother or [SPOILER CHARACTER]).
I like the idea that it was accidental because to me it shows how smart aemond really is. Aemond may be a kid and dumb for chasing Luce, but he knew killing him would be a terrible decision and instantly knows he messed up
I don’t mind accidents as long you don’t have too many of them in a row. One accident causing characters to take decisive actions is fine, an accident leading to another accident which causes another accident just leads to the characters being pulled along by the plot instead of driving it forwards. Though to give them credit it’s really hard to portray a conflict and make it feel inevitable but also that the characters all had agency, so I’d rather they sacrifice one or the other to tell a good story than to try and force that feeling to fit at the cost of other aspects.
yeah i do think the show is doing way to much to make it all accidents, misunderstandings, and bad coincedences. Like some are inevitable and good, but its also good to show how humans are vulnerable, and make mistakes, and bad descisions, and stupid mean ones, and then are forced to face consequences.
While I agree with you that agency is important, in this case, I don't think it would have made sense for Aemond to just outright murder Luke. Sure, he is arrogant, angry and bitter, but he also takes his duty seriously, he knows there's no glory in killing a child, and he hasn't proven himself to be a completely unhinged character. This change makes more sense with the Aemond we have known so far, making his progression into violence more complex. It has the added value of making the dragons feel like more than props. When mishandled, taking away agency can feel like a forced plot, but you can also make it feel like a tragedy. It's not like Luke just fell off his dragon and people blamed Aemond. He unnecessarily escalated a situation with a giant living weapon and will pay for his hubris. Edit: I think he'll have to claim that he did it on purpose because 1: who would believe him anyway? and 2: he can't just say he lost control of his dragon. Having to play the role of the monster will make him a monster. Maybe after the whole Blood and Cheese mess he will try to confess to his mom or sister, but too late anyway.
"and he hasn't proven himself to be a completely unhinged character" Um, this is the same kid who mere minutes afte claiming Vhagar was already threatening people (his much younger nephews and nices at that) with having them fed to his dragon and burned alive. And now we have him here throwing a tantrum because Luke refuses to take out his own eye and lunging at him to take it himself. And that's just in the show, in the books he was far worse, the walking definition of unhinged psycopath.
@@warrenhillston5899 😂 Yeah, I see your point, but you can understand how in a show where his brother is a serial rapist who likes to see little kids fight, his uncle is, well, Daemon, and his mentor ser Criston Cole kills anyone who mildly inconveniences him, his threats don't stand out as much. If anything, he was mostly talk up until this point. But even if you still believe him capable of that level of violence at this point of his character arc (obviously he does become ruthless by the end, I should have added a 'yet'), I don't know if I believe him that stupid. He de-escalated the situation after losing his eye, he was smart enough not to accuse Alicent of questioning the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children, and he didn't let his brother escape despite his personal feelings. This was the Green's worst move, so making it completely intentional makes Aemond look completely irrational.
@@trinidadgondi Yeah I agree. At this point at least, it feels like Aemond is too smart to do anything that stupid. He knew he couldn't kill Luc, which is why he only demanded an eye, otherwise he could have just killed him for it long ago.
Daemon's theme is a dark, morose and lonely one. It plays when he rows out alone to surrender to the Crabfeeder. One of the best themes in this universe I think.
Page 399 of Fire and Blood says “the Eyrie was presently ruled by a woman, Lady Jeyne, the Maiden of the Vale, whose own rights might be called into question should Princess Rhaenyra be put aside.” I’ve skimmed from the Great Council to the Battle at Rook’s Rest and couldn’t find anything about why the male lords supported Aegon, so I think Martin just left it unsaid because it’s so obvious.
It's not specifically about Aegon, but when Rosby and Stokeworth lose their lords when they're executed Corlys argues against their lands falling to their young daughters because it might turn the lords against Rhaenyra, and that Rhaenyra is a special case (on 467)
The Great Council’s ruling is just being used as a precedent. The real issue had to do with rules and traditions around marriage, inheritance and legacy. If all of your House’ titles and holdings falls to the woman, and if that woman gets married to a man of another house, that man would have claim over the former’s House titles and holdings, effectively bringing an end to one house while increasing the stature of another. Targaryen exceptionalism aside, Viserys created a problem by naming his daughter his heir, then tried to hand a variation of that type if problem off to Corlys, who’s house is now facing the same issue. The details of a similar problem was brought up in the books. A Lady of I don’t remember of which minor house in the North, Lord husband had died leaving no heirs, and she was assumed to be near past her child bearing years and there wasn’t any close relatives to pass the house to. I don’t remember their decision, but it didn’t matter since Ramsey paid her a visit and attempted to extract the rights to the noble house from her.
One of the things I really liked was that the setup from the prophecy accounts for Rhaenyra’s change in philosophy from the books. Because there, she is furious and ambitious and ready to go to war because she believes the throne is all that’s important as she was raised to believe it was her sole right and duty… but the show introduced a separate element with the prophecy. Now, her duty isn’t to herself but to the realm and she has a decision to make. Is it more important that she sits the Iron Throne or that it stands united behind its king in the event that the great darkness should come in their lifetimes? It’s something she has to take into account, even though no one else will, because it’s now something only she knows about. She can still make a claim for the throne, but it will come at the cost of the united realm her father held together for so many years and in advancing her claims in his name, she destroys his legacy in the process. The inclusion of the prophecy adds a whole new dimension to her character that simply isn’t present in the book, just like her friendship with Alicent, that means she is much more reluctant to want to go to war in the first place. Book Rhaenyra and Alicent loathe each other and were waiting for the first opportunity to stab each other but if that changes, then their reactions to his death have to likewise change. But what drives Rhaenyra away from even contemplating this path is the death of her youngest son, something she’ll believe is an act of intentional murder from which none of Alicent’s keepsakes will spare her wroth. (Even though Alicent sending the torn page from episode one was the second most heartbreaking moment of the episode for me and highlights what a tragedy has been imposed on these characters by circumstances around them.) It’s a tragic and poetic change from the source material that I really appreciate. I’ve generally been on Team Alicent before now but Rhaenyra really won me around to Team Black this time, this was her episode. The shot of her wearing her father’s crown after Viserys’ funeral as her theme’s choir chants louder than ever before was stunningly beautiful. I have no other words for it. 🖤
Yeah, I saw it with this going through his mind; Criston; (Then your the first to go, you stupid fool… Bam!… Good riddance!… Ahh. I hope I don’t get in trouble for that.) His Lord Commander draws his sword…
ASOIAF and Dunk and Egg are full of accidents and misunderstandings driving the plot and major parts of history. It's a key part of George's writing, and parts of GOT people loved. What he does though is have characters then make decisions based on those accidents and misunderstandings. And also those characters did make decisions. Alicent decided to listen to Viserys and then push Aegon forward, she's not obligated to. There's no one else there to hear it, she could've let it go and decided to spare the realm after finally making amends with Rhaenyra. There's no dragon to her head saying she has to. Aemond decided he wanted to chase Luke and seriously harm him at least by carving out his eye at the very least. He's so out of control in that moment and chase I would be shocked if he really did stop with just an eye. It's more like the writers granted the characters their wishes. Viserys finally telling Alicent, as far as she can tell, that Aegon should succeed him but it's right after she gave up the fight. After years of dreaming about it, Aemond gets to take his revenge on Luke for taking out his eye. And it's at the worst time and way more than he consciously intended but subconsciously wanted. Their wishes are granted, and they now regret ever wanting those things is more what they were going for. And for Aemond in particular, Condal noted this is when Aemond's last shred of innocence is killed with Luke. So it's going to be something he owns and embraces going forwards, that he does want to be more like Daemon rather than Viserys.
And here's the quotes you were looking for "He had nothing against women, Lord Borros went on to say; he loved his girls, a daughter is a precious thing…but a son, ahhh…should the gods ever grant him a son of his own blood, Storm’s and would pass to him, not to his sisters. “Why should the Iron Throne be any different?” And with a royal marriage in the offing…Rhaenyra’s cause was lost, she would see that when she learned that she had lost Storm’s End, he would tell her so himself…bow down to your brother, aye, it’s for the best, his girls would fight with each other sometimes, the way girls do, but he saw to it they always made peace afterward…" "But the Queen’s Hand argued against this, for both girls had younger brothers. Rhaenyra’s own claim to the Iron Throne was a special case, the Sea Snake insisted; her father had named her as his heir. Lords Rosby and Stokeworth had done no such thing. Disinheriting their sons in favor of their daughters would overturn centuries of law and precedent, and call into question the rights of scores of other lords throughout Westeros whose own claims might be seen as inferior to those of elder sisters."
@@JoeMagician @Joe Magician I have some thoughts (as inevitable as I know the Dance is): I can imagine the Dornish question _may_ potentially come up- & people in the audience too, are likely going to raise it in their commentary. While this whole conflict is ignoring the established Dornish custom- at this point, they're *still* regarded as a foreign entity- why would looking to _Dornish_ inheritance customs be any more relevant to the future of *the Iron Throne* , than the inheritance tradition of say- Volantis, or Qohor? Also, it has a 'foreign' origin, in it being Rhoynish- & beyond that; Dorne itself is not quite as unified in this matter as many perceive- yes, several Dornish houses in 'present-day' are either currently ruled by women, or have female heirs - however, it isn't so cut & dried; there's said to be more adherence to Westerosi traditions, the more Andal the house/ region- ie. Allyria Dayne is only regent for her nephew, Edric 'Ned' Dayne- she's older, but custom dictates that the elder brother/ siblings' children inherited first. Anyway- some, all, or none of this may get to be discussed- just my thoughts....
I think Aemond will take credit publicly, but likely admit it privately. He cannot afford to admit he does not have full control of Vhagar, but he does seem to have a good relationship with his mother and a few others.
I love the idea that episodes 9 and 10 respectively portray the opposing factions. Although maybe not perfectly executed, especially episode 9, but it was overall an interesting writing decision I liked to see explored.
I LOVED the changed with Lucerys being killed "accidentally" (Aemond is still completely responsible!). It made me feel so much. I can't get over Aemond's panicking after being so cocky. It's perfectly fine that he just wades into the war crimes instead of jumping in head first lol. Aemond *did* make a bad decision for malicious reasons... Terrifying his nephew and intended to cause him harm isn't exactly warm and fuzzy intentions even if he didn't want him to actually die. I bet Aemond will own it because no one would believe him if he said it was an accident and it would make him appear weak.
I don't disagree with having more of the causes of the dance being decisions instead of accidents but I think it's also a great way to show how history is made by historians not actual events alot of the time. Nobody but Aemond could have known it was an accident so to the rest of the world it was on purpose.
I know I am several months late to the party, but I wanted to add my thoughts: Daemon always seemed to be driven by family. He wanted his brothers love and respect, but got pushed away, he loved Rhaenyra but could not get her (until later). Now, that -winter- war is coming he stands with his family: Rhaenyra and her children. Why he is already preparing for war while Rhaenyra is in childbirth is obvious I believe. He immdiately orders everyone to secure Dragonstone in case the Greens want to attack or send an assassin. Something they were clearly planning to do, or at least Otto and his co-conspirators wanted to do, which proves Daemon right. With Rhaenyra advocating for peace he does see Viserys in her which probably frustrates him. In the beginning of the show he said he would protect his brother Viserys from himself and the people trying to take advantage of him (Otto for example). This desire for peace even though war is seemingly unavoidable reminds him (Daemon) of Viserys' weakness that was responsible for letting it come to this point in the first place. There is also another point to this: the heir to the throne is told about Aegons prophecy. Yet despite Daemon being heir in the beginning of the show Viserys never told him, further proving that Daemon was always intended to be replaced by Viserys child. To Daemon being heir was important not just because of ambition and lust for power - I believe - but also because he wants his brothers love, respect and acknowledgment, yet Viserys pushes Daemon away. "All you ever did was send me away, to the Vale, to the City Watch." But as long as Daemon is heir Viserys can't completely push him away. An heir is needed for stabilization, so being heir was Daemons reinsurance that no matter what happens, Viserys can't push him away too far. As far as I know Martin described Daemon as having "light and darkness in equal parts" or something along those lines and while he is charismatic I wish we would see more positive traits like honour or loyalty from him. Instead of a character that is likable despite a bad personality I wish he would be a more sympathetic character instead of "just a badass".
HoTD seems to subscribe to a Tolstoyan interpretation of history. That is: History happens regardless of most of our actions, on an accident. Great people influencing history is a farçe. That's why it may seem many things happen despite the people in power trying their hardest not to let them happen.
13:44 the line you're looking for is later... SPOILERS FOR THE LATER DANCE ... Is in relation to marrying to dragonseeds to the daughters of Rosby and Stokeworth to reward them, yet the girls has younger brothers: "Disinheriting their sons in favour of their daughters would overturn centuries of law and precident, and call into question the right of scores of other lords throughout Westeros who's own claims may be seen as inferior to older sisters" - The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Triumphant.
Nice I was also struggling to find the line. I scoured the part about the great council and rhaenys’ disinheritance and couldn’t find it. Kudos to you!
Lord Bees getting killed was a bit lame, I will agree. But I like the accidentally killing of Lucerys. Aemond wants to be king and is super sure of his abilities, so giving him that moment of “I don’t control my powers the way I think I do and this will have consequences” I think is better than him just murdering the boy.
I had the *chomp* spoiled for me since r/freefolk has an anti-spoiler marking policy, apparently. That being said, I noticed a bit of the foreshadowing before the *chomp* in the editing. The opening shot of the table turns into a scene with Lucerys and Rhaenyra where he tells her she's perfect and they have a beautiful moment. During the coronation, the camera slowly zooms into Luke when both brothers are on screen. When they first fly off, they emphasize Luke and Arrax to show that he's got the smallest dragon before disappearing into the dark clouds. Then all the really obvious stuff, like Vhagar greeting Luke in the storming courtyard. It was so sad to see Arrax visibly distressed while Luke tried to calm him down. Despite being spoiled, I still really liked and enjoyed the episode. I wasn't sure how I felt about some of the actors after only seeing them a handful of times before, but I really liked them in this episode.
Haven't even seen the show yet, but I love how much more excited you are about this show compared to Rings of Power. I'm actually excited to give this show a watch now
Fun fact: the finale flight/fight (the chomp chomp) was inspired by the finale battle of How to Train Your Dragon. And its been confirmed by the HotD director, Greg Yaitanes
I liked the "accident" of Lucerys' death because 1) it showed how thin and fragile the control of dragons by their riders is when it really comes down to it despite all the Targaryen and Velaryon pride and pretending 2) Aemond gets to see the consequences of his petty feud, a sort of "oh hey, my recklessness has really bad consequences. Sort of like those frat party hazings that go horribly wrong.
I don't have an issue with the "accident" changes they've made from the book, because it's added so much nuance to the story that isn't possible in a narrative non-fiction book like Fire and Blood. Aemond still *chose* to chase Luke down, but him having the foresight to know that he didn't want to actually kill him and exacerbate a war and his dragon making that choice instead was so interesting. It's still 100% his fault, but not his intention. That sort of nuance is where this show has thrived, and I've loved every small tweak they've made so far.
Otto and the greens would have went to war regardless, Alicent misunderstanding felt more specific to giving her the push to go along with the rest of them. The same applies with the chomp, the war would have happened eventually anyways, this unfortunate accident or another one. I don't dislike the accidents because of people like Damon and Otto who ARE makeing decisions to go to war.
The Borros quote you were looking for: He had nothing against women, Lord Borros went on to say, he loved his girls, a daughter is a precious thing... but a *son*, ahh... should the gods ever grant him his own blood, Storm's End would pass on to him, not his sisters. "Why should the iron throne be any different?" Yeah, Borros is crazy sleazy in this passage. (and just generally the disappointment Baratheon.)
Tim, I am currently figuring out that I have been very disconnected from myself the last 3 years and only now rediscovering what I actually like and I can tell you - you just talking in depth about these fictional universes makes me very happy. It is just so great to see your interest and appreciation for everything.
To answer the aemond reaction question - I think he totally will try to claim he killed Luke deliberately. I think what's going on, is that the characters in S1 are going to eventually become the people that get portrayed in the history books. Rhaenyra and Allicent are trying their best to find peaceful solutions now, but history remembers them as bitter enemies, and I think we're about to see their relationship deteriorate. In the vein, Aemond One Eye is remember by history as a vicious anime villain, not a socially awkward bullied kid, and I think circumstances are going to lead him to become hardened and reflect that. It's already started to happen with him.
I knew the kid was dead before he took off from Dragonstone unaccompanied and green as all could-be, but as soon as we saw Aemond's dragon already there in the courtyard....it was only a question of exactly how soon.
The characters are making decisions; they just don't think the consequences through. Both Aemond and Serr Criston made the choice to attack, yet they didn't measure their strength. The Targaryens attack each other, and they don't realize the strength of their attacks and the damage they are capable to do. That's the whole point of the conflict. The Targaryens are so strong that they are blind to their own weaknesses, which will become their downfall.
Yeah, I know a lot of folks who thought Daemon’s actions were it or character because he’s always had a reason to commit violence (war, Justice, or politics) and always had a soft spot for Rhaenyra, but what if his “reasons “were really “excuses” to commit violence and having boundaries is often the mistake victims of violent abusers always make in thinking
I saw the Chomp as less of Aemond not wanting to kill Lucerys/only killing him on accident and more as not wanting to kill him _like that_ . For that matter, I'm not even sure this paints him as more sympathetic as I saw his frustration be more about all the things he didn't get to do to Luke rather than Luke dying per se.
This episode was brilliant and I can only imagine what there is to come. A couple of quick thoughts below: Daemon: He is an agent of chaos and I love the character for that. Our brains are wired to always categorize, so it makes sense that people aim for him to be "good" or "bad". But his chaos usually makes him unpredictable and that's what I find fascinating. That's why him chocking Raenyra felt oddly natural for the character to do, as despicable as that might be. Conflict-choice-consequence: I totally see what you mean with regards to the characters accidentally doing something vs deciding to do it. In an effort to portray the characters as more gray, their decisions are watered down a lot of the times. It's a choice I find interesting, and I can actually understand, though it is tricky because your character choices loose strength, and hence they give you weaker consequences. However, it doesn't matter if the one eye did it by accident or not, what matters is how he will show himself to the rest of the green side. From getting your son murdered to taking a side: Rhaenys has been one of my favorite characters. I think she felt they had already chosen a side even if she strongly disagree with it. But her defending Raenyra's stand and choosing to side with her felt odd. If she truly believe she murdered her son, I find it hard to believe that she would be so willing to help her. So her deciding to side with them like that felt odd. Their daughters are promised to Raenyra's sons, so I guess that's one reason, but still, not fully convince... Great video as always!
I actually really liked the accidental dragon chompening. I think it works on several levels. First of all, if we view dragons as a metaphor for nuclear weapons, the fact that Lucerys and Aemond lose control of their dragons can be seen as a statement on the dangers of escalation, how in certain situations (i.e. the Cuban Missile Crisis), things can escalate out of control and lead to war, even if neither side really wants it. The real reason why I like it though, is how it ties into the theme of intergenerational conflict that you talked about previously. On one level, we have parents pushing their conflicts onto their children, who eventually internalize and perpetuate them. The beautiful tragedy of House of the Dragon is that it shows the parents realizing that this conflict won't end well for any of them, and trying to pull back from it. However, by that point, it's too late because their children have already internalized the conflict, and won't back away from it. We see this in the dinner scene in episode 8, where it looks like Alicent and Rhaenyra might genuinely reconcile, but their children (who don't have the memory of Alicent and Rhaenyra being friends once) are still at each others' throats. However, we also see that the children are in the same situation with their dragons. They pass down their conflicts onto their dragons (who may be responding to their riders' subconscious desires), and by time they realize that it won't end well, it's too late and their dragons keep going against their wishes. We see the same conflicts passed down again and again, and each time the people who initially started the conflict have less and less ability to stop it.
I wasn't expecting the accidental chomp, but ultimately, I'm fine with it. For starters, the dragons are just more interesting when they have some agency and personality of their own, and at the end of the day, these are two kids riding them as opposed to someone who's been paired with their dragon for a lifetime. Aemond still decided to confront Lucerys. He may not have wanted to kill him, but he could have easily let him go. Instead, he chose to stop him in the throne room and chose to chase after him (through a storm no less). More so, I don't see him admitting it was an accident, mostly because that would mean admitting that he isn't capable of controlling Vhagar. That's a kind of 'weakness' I don't think he will want associated with him considering the pride he has being the rider of the largest dragon. So we end up with an ambitious second son, trying to do his duty as expected of him but wanting more, accidently causing the first blow in the war to come (which happens to give him a chance to gain more in the future) and being labeled a kinslayer for it. No doubt that will end up playing a part in how he approaches situations in the future as the war goes on. First step though, he has to overcome disappointing his mother.
And by doing that it emphasises that the targaryens don't have full control of their dragons. And makes the war more tragic as there was a chance for peace and most of the characters didn't want a civil war.
That quotation by Lord Baratheon reflecting on how the royal succession issue compares to his, according to an amateur audio reading on RUclips, is in chapter 14, roughly halfway through. (I dare not put the title of the chapter because it’s a bit of a spoiler.) ‘He had nothing against women, Lord Borros went on to say; he loved his girls, a daughter is a precious thing… but a *son*, ahhh… should the gods ever grant him a son of his own blood, Storm’s End would pass to him, not to his sisters. “Why should the iron throne be any different?“ ‘ PS: On a re-listen, maybe this is only part of what you were looking for, I’m not sure if the part you couldn’t find is this part or the part where there’s a broader comparison with how it might affect the other noble houses.
Hey, hope you read this. i haven't read the books so a lot of it is new to me, i don't go out of my way to know spoilers other than watching your channel(love your content) and wisecrack. i like that a lot of it isn't deliberate, i feel a lot of game of thrones was so calculated and chess-like that characters started to seems almost godlike. which tends to happen with any work of fiction but with HOTD there's a more human element to their mistakes and decision, characters unknowingly making both good and often bad decisions. especially with the "chump", it's easy to forget these people are still sorta kids, and they are handling dragons, humans in real life struggle with dogs and cats, and we see what happens when we tame less domestic animals. And, now he has to take responsibility for what happened, because there are witnesses to his hostility at Stormfront and past moments.
Here's what I think people mean when they say daemon choking Rhaenyra feels out of character. It's not out of character for him to choke his wife we've seen him kill a wife and be distant from another, but it is out of character for him with Rhaenyra specifically. Everytime we see him with her he's kind, gentle, defends her with his life, so when he suddenly turns on her it doesn't feel right.
I wish the show hadn't been so heavy-handed with foreshadowing Lucerys' fate. At latest at the point where Rhaenyra looks into the camera and says "I'm sure you'll receive a warm welcome." everyone could figure out Luke was a goner. That being said, I like the change they did with this one. It builds on the theme of these people toeing recklessly on the line of war and egging each other on until someone takes a fatal misstep. The cycle of violence and retribution that will follow is going to feel so much more tragic knowing that recklessness and accident lie at it's core.
The accidental chomp rather worked for me. You said it yourself The Dance is told by the accounts of Maesters who weren’t there. Their accounts are biased. Like media today you can turn a saint into villain. The fact that Aemond( a teen btw) took his living nuke to terrorize and bully another kid on the back of another nuke. Chompy chomp by accident seems more likely in my humble opinion. Though I will concede some of the “accidents” were unnecessary but I could see why the show runners did this.
The beautiful thing about the TV series is that it is not a history like the book written by a maester hundreds of years later. The camera puts you in the actual moment, letting you see subtle emotions and mistakes a maester would have no way of knowing, like young men unable to control their dragons, where a simple bullying incident becomes a sky-rage incident that pushes the realm into a war so many tried to prevent. If you think of dragons as nukes and angry passions and accidents that inadvertently cause war, it has ominous parallels with the current nuclear threats being bandied about between Russia and NATO. Any little incident can accidentally cause a war. Art imitating life or the other way around. I think the choke Daemon gave Rhaenyras was because her reluctance to war reminded him of his brother Viscyres, who wanted peace at all costs. He wanted to squeeze her father’s reluctance out of her. Yet he also loved his brother and this sibling love-hate wars within his heart. There’s far more subtlety in the TV series, which must be far more nuanced that a chapter or two in a book, and remember GRRM has full input on all of it.
My boyfriend pointed out that Baratheon might not have been able to read, hence why he had to send for his Maester. This, the Queen embarrasses him, whereas the King sent a smaller delegation to TALK to him.
I loved the chomp, in fact I loved the whole series. I have only read one of the books being A Song of Ice and Fire, so this time period is brand new to me, and I rely on people like Tim to fill in some things I might not have understood. Usually I hate accidents, coincidences (think of the dreadfully written Rings of Power) but this is so gripping I don't care. We've seen world wars spiral out of control due to coincidences so it can happen anyway.
I actually like the plotlines of accidents or mistakes escalating into huge scandals and eventually to war. It highlights the danger of reckless rhetoric and pointless bravado and how so many people who see each other as sworn enemies really don't have a leg to stand on in the end. It also ties into Mr. Martin's themes of how excessively powerful people affect the lives of so many through their actions, both the calculated plans and the impulsive in-the-moment actions.
I love how the book being an in world history gives us events with some historians opinion of how they happened. Yet we can watch the show and see the human complexity that would happen with any historical event before it became “history“ treating episode 10 like episode nine traditionally was was the best option!
I wonder if Aemond will lie and basically go "I did kill him on purpose, but only after he called [Alicent] a whore" or something like that; owning up to killing Luce, but not owning up to the fact it was his actions alone that have now started a war.
"Huh, that dragon is REALLY big, maybe don't go in there kid." "Told you so, now you're running back all scared." "ooh shit there she is, above you." "Oh cool you got away, be cool, be cool." "oooops, you fucked up." "Aemond gonna be in sooooooooo much trouble."
The chomp works like in our world is someone playing with a loaded gun. Is not until you accidentally press the trigger that you realize the consequences of your actions and the life you ended. I’m intrigued on how this will affect aemond who portrayed himself as the stable guy but in reality he still a young man. Will he be a tragic Jaime like character or will he become mad. So many pathways for his arc, regarding the accidents in the show I think for now it works and shows the tragedy of a ruling family mad with power
This is episode was more traumatic in the birth sequence. This show is literally just House of the traumatic births. That's more reeling than anything else I've seen on the show. However, we were told VERY early by Viserys that it "is an illusion that we control the dragon". It is shown when Daemon goes to Vermithor that there is an understanding that he is just a visitor in that dragon's place. Daemon is an interesting character in the sense that he is strategic and cunning while also being volatile.
Aemond thinking he can control Vhagar reminds me of Quentyn Martell from the main series of books, where he tries to steal one of Dany's dragons but... [spoilers] gets himself killed.
So @16:13 Morning isn’t born until toward the end of the war and does not exist yet, and probably won’t exist until the last season of the show unless of course they change things in adaptation. So really it’s just Syrax, Meleys, Caraxes, Vermax and Moondancer vs Vhagar, Sunfyre and Dreamfyre, in terms of dragons with riders. I suppose we can count on Vermithor, Silverwing and Seasmoke to be on Team Black, but of course they are currently riderless.
I'm fairly certainthey are watering down characters critical decisions because HBO wants the audience to be split on who to support. And to an extent, it's working. While nobody in my friend group thinks Aegon has a legitimate claim to the throne - we are fiercely divided on whether Alicent is morally superior to Rhanerya, or vice versa.
It also just makes for better writing. If everyone in one camp was pure evil, it would be impossible to empathize with the characters at all. GoT did this too, in how they sanitized Tyrion's character so that there would be someone on the Lannister side the audience could root for un-apologetically and it worked. The Dance is supposed to be a tragedy. Watching everyone die won't feel so tragic if they're all complete assholes.
I think they’ll end up saying the chomp was intentional. War was already seeming inevitable, and if the chomp was accidental (it was, but if people knew it was) they could lose legitimacy, just for losing control of their dragons.
Кино
You can stop correcting me on a few things in the lore. I know I mixed up. I had to make this video far quicker than normal. What did you think of the accidental chomp?
~ Tim
I like how it connects to first episode. The idea we control the dragons is an illusion. Which has some truth when comparing dragons to weapons of mass destruction.
Do you think its okay, that the show writers intend in almost all episodes to paint this conflict as an unintentional accident on everyone's part? it seems too on the nose and blatantly crafted and i personally refuse to absolve Alicent and Aemon of blame due to their abhorrent behavior of constantly instigating conflict rather than being willing to get on The Targaryen's good sides. particularly given that Jace and Helaena's marriage seemingly would've stopped all of this i think, and Alicent refused for seemingly no reason, Besides spite. I've never disliked any of these characters, but nothing has made me sympathize with anyone. So it seems pointless to make Luke's death accidental. The actions they take in the leadup is what's causing the tragedy. they're already being self-indulgent, self-important twats it doesn't matter if context makes them slightly less of one.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Luke, being younger and obviously more insecure in himself, wouldn’t be able to properly control Arrax who was trying to fight off a danger to himself and his rider.
And likewise, it wouldn’t matter what Aemond said, Vhagar was attacked and wasn’t just going to let that go even though all Aemond wanted was to scare Luke, drive him to the ground and take an eye at most.
It’s never been established in book or show that the kind of bond Targaryens have with their dragons is comparable to wargs who enter the bodies of animals. It’s a link but the beast and rider are still very much separate so if Vhagar feels angry about being attacked, she’s not going to care about Aemond’s desire to avoid escalation of a political conflict.
I like it on its own as a scene for Aemond. However throughout the show they build up perfect tension and stakes only to undercut it with different reasons. The usurping was already cool but they needed to have Alicent misinterpret Viserys' last words which is far less compelling. The prophecy motivation isn't as compelling for Rhaenyra as her other motivations. The show undercuts their perfect setup by focusing on a weaker element and so when the chomp scene turned into an accident I was just tired of it.
"Oh, another decision that got undermined by a lower stake than they had perfectly setup."
I still think chomp on its own works, just felt underwhelming in sequence, though still awesome overall.
I think similar to Alicent being the only one to hear Vicerys' last words that "Aegon should be king," I doubt many people would believe that the chomp was simply an accident, when so many people witnessed Aemond storming off on a dragon to take Lucery's eye.
I think having the war start because of an accident really makes this story more of an inevitable tragedy, because the real cause of it wasn't the actions of a single person. It was the entire family's distorted image of their own power that led to this war.
I was less bothered by this accident, because it really wasn’t an accident as such - Aemond was playing with fire, and things got out of control. Yes, he didn’t mean to kill Luke, but he was utterly reckless with his life so was completely responsible regardless. This showed how your own reckless actions can have terrible consequences well beyond what you might intend, and I think that’s a lesson with a strong thematic resonance throughout the story. If you juggle grenades, don’t be surprised if someone - everyone - gets hurt.
Hehe....strong 🤣
Fully agree with this, also adds depth so aemonds character
That's exactly how I see it.
@@azlanadil3646 he's a dumb kid who didn't think at all lol but the imagery of Lazer dragons is hilarious
For sure, right on point. I said the same thing using slightly different words lol well said
@@azlanadil3646 It honestly feels like he’s more mad about the pig than the eye. Like he’s saying to Luke “how’s this for a pig mother fucker!?”
It makes sense to me that Deamon is planing the war, while Rhaenyra gives birth. He lost Laena in childbirth and probably does not have the curage to face the same prospect again. So he throws himself into something he knows well and he is good at: war.
Funny how war scares him less than childbirth, and it’s in line with his character. Amazing.
He's a man that responds to things that make him uncomfortable or angry with furious violence. That trait makes him useless in a situation like a botched childbirth.
He knows better than to even go near it, so yes, he needs to distract himself, because there's nothing he can kill to fix the situation.
You can see his feeling of impotence when he falls to his knees in the surf after the baby is confirmed dead.
His mother also unfortunately died in childbirth so it's doubly traumatic for him
Not very good, though, the Velaryons stated that they were in a stalemate against the Crabfeeder because of Daemon.
Ahh, the Robert Baratheon school of running away from emotional trauma.
I loved the accidental nature of the chomp. I feel like the longer the show can make every character sympathetic, the more powerfully each tragic step in the conflict is felt. I am left feeling heartbroken for the victims of the chomp, and still feeling a sadness for Aemond. too, forever changed by this event.
Perfect way to put it. I agree completely. Loving this show!
Interesting take because to me I feel like they’ve been systematically ruling out every character as sympathetic, I think Luke may have been the last one left apart from Helaena who I found sympathetic- no clue what they’re doing with Jacaerys, is he a dick is he not, can’t tell
@@JHannah-sl2iy I think Jacaerys is very serious about his duty and can seems to be a dick in the training scene with his brother, but this is the response to Aemond being so brillant in combat and threatening them constantly. He's afraid of Aemond and possibly Aegon and wants him and his brother ready cause he cares about him.
@@moruemourue9692 yeh I am hoping Jacaerys is a good one, we just only tend to see snippets of him so far and in those snippets he’s sometimes a dick sometimes not like you said, will be interesting to see properly what his character is like in season 2! It’d be nice for him to be an heir to route for.
Nah i disagree they have to start actually making choices rather than being driven by circumstances
Daemon choked Rhaenyra when she brought up the song of ice and fire, the secret among Targaryen kings and their heirs that his brother Viserys never once thought him worthy enough to share with. That's the reason. His frustration with Viserys, his denial of heirship, trust and love of his brother, and his jealousy over Rhaenyra all coming together into a complicated emotion that he can only let out in the one way he knows how: violence. Anger is easier for Daemon to access than to sit in his emotions.
While I agree that all these emotions and notions were in play in his head, I think the main one you missed was that Daemon didn't want Rhaenyra to rule like Viserys, to be passive like Viserys. I see Daemon as having a bit of Lady Olenna in him, "You're a dragon, be a dragon."
Daemon also believes Viserys passed him over because of the petty counsel of others, especially Otto Hightower. So, Daemon really does not want to be passed over for his entitled seat of power (as King consort) again because of the schemes and shenanigans of Otto Hightower.
@@noonyakaleka2098 i totally agree! It was like Daemon was choking the bit of his older brother out of rhaenyra when she spoke of prophecies. Which is interesting because i think Daemon would’ve been very interested in any prophetic dreams any Targaryens have. Since he is so invested in his Targaryen lineage
@@noonyakaleka2098 Sure. I did call out his frustration with Viserys, which is what you described in so many words. Daemon was frustrated that Viserys was weak and that his weakness allowed others to prey upon him.
I got the impression he didn't like her thinking of lore at a time like this. While i know the importance of that lore and respect her restraint... my first reaction would be to make a statement! Especially after what news of this usurping did to her!
I feel like it was less jealousy and more frustration at Rhaenyra making the same mistakes as Viserys.
For better or worse, Viserys passiveness allowed the Greens to take power and put Aegon 2 on the throne. And a big reason for that passing was Viserys belief in prophecies.
And now Rhaenyra is making the same mistakes. I know its sounds bad and less honorable but Daemon had the right idea. If they wanted to win the war quick they had to arm their dragons and kill the greens directly as soon as possible. With collateral damage bieng just an unfortunate by product.
But Rhaenyra instead tries to sue for peace just like Viserys because she too believes in unsubstantiated prophecies. And just like Daemon had predicted, it results in her kid's death.
I understand that guy must genuinely be tired and frustrated of seeing his crumble over the years.
I loved the way Aemond lost control of Vhagar, because, as someone who rides horses, there is always those moments where they bolt or rear and you have that terrible realization that you never had true control of them. It felt very realistic and one of the best portrayals of animal nature.
I would argue the “accident” which occurred with Aemond and Lucerys was still the result of character choices. Aemond still ultimately choose to hunt down and taunt Luke to the point that Arrax was terrified.
Exactly. One thing that seems to be a recurring theme in the shows is that the consequences of our choices always reach beyond what we wanted in the first place. It is just fitting that Aemond did neither kill Lucerys purpose, nor did Vhagar flew up to chomp on Arrax without being induced to by Aemond. Aemond made a choice and the consequences were beyond his control. Same thing for everything bad that happened in the show.
@@JoaoPedro-gc8mw thats a very good point
Lucerys still brought a KNIFE to ambush Aemond and then kicked him while he was down with 3 other kids. He tried to kill Aemond. And then at dinner with the King he still bullies Aemond with the pig!
@@BronnBlackwater About the knife, I agree. But they were stupid children. About the pig, I don't agree that he was "still bullying Aemond". It was a silent laughter, kind you have when you remember the stupid shit you've done when you were a kid. He probably didn't even mean it as an insult to Aemond, he just laughed at the memory. Maybe he'd thought Aemond was already over it (he wasn't, but I don't blame him as well, it seems his present arrogance is a direct effect of how inadequate he felt and was made to feel when he was a kid).
I very much believe that Aemond will take full responsibility and be like "yeah I killed him, so what? He was a traitor." Even if he doesn't mean it, he's going to keep acting tough, as to show remorse is to show weakness (in his mind.)
I wonder if he'll confide the truth to Helaena- she's probably the only person he would...
I hope we get to see him go to his sister for comfort when he ll be seen as kinslayer and starteding the war. Showing them having a strong relationship would hit so much harder for what's coming.
It's better to be thought ruthless, dangerous, and a warmonger, than weak, incompetent, and unreliable. I mean... starting a war by accident impresses no one.
@@dmgroberts5471 Exactly.
This is exactly my thought. No way he's going to admit that he couldn't control his own dragon.
Vhagar giving serious horror vibes during the chase after poor little Arrax, fantastic one
Narrator: It was at this moment that Aemond knew… he fucked up.
Imo, Aemond not intending to kill Lucerys could serve as a good contrast for later in the Dance, where he might have a similar scenario where he doesn't hold back after all the bloodshed
I don’t think there were any accidents in the last scene. His actions led directly to the outcome. People make terrible decisions every day that lead to unintended outcomes. Just as a person drives a car after drinking, they got in, turned the key and took off. I’m sure they don’t intend to hurt anyone but they’re tossing a coin with their actions. Great videos! I enjoy them
And also lets not forget, it definetly wasnt an accident on Vhagars part lul^^ Shes not just a car, shes a sentient, pridefull car!
The more you fuck around, the more you find out
@@gb1oke 😂
"There are no accidents"
- A trutle
I disliked the change initially because it robbed Aemond of some of his agency but I like it more and more as I think about it after the episode and a rewatch. We were always told that Dragons are not pets only to continue portraying them as such, handwaving whatever they did outside of their rider's control. Yeah, Drogon killed kids but as always, civvies don't matter when a girlboss' pet does them in.
This was the first time that we get the full consequences of uncontrolled dragons and it feels like a punch in the gut. This war was all but assured because two kids forgot that they ride fully formed personalities
I also liked it because Aemond is still young.... Like, I don't think he is 20!
It's more plausible to me that he did something impulsively, without thinking about every outcome possible and it went south on him...
It felt like a kid who just got a new car and decides to race someone at a red light, does dangerous manœuvre that send the other driver crashing...
The finale was truly amazing. But what´s even more amazing is how I managed to avoid spoilers for several days before watching it
Me too😂 we’ll done!
You're one of strong boys lol
I had a problem with my HBO app and couldn’t watch until today (FRIDAY) and still managed to stay unspoiled! 😅
I literally watched all 10 episodes this past weekend and managed to have nothing spoiled. A massive achievement.
Sometimes war happens by accidents made by immature, irresponsible people...Aemond is an example of this. This conflict started by the succesion conflict and things became worse after time. A snowball became an avalanche and it's pretty tragic.
Those last 15 minutes had me shaking with the tension. You know what's going to happen, but the build up was soooo tense.
I love the dragons being their own characters. As others have said, dagons are not slaves.
It was a great episode. The icing on the cake was the look on Aemond's face because he knows he messed up.
Daemon: Mutilates hundreds of criminals, almost beats a messenger to death, grooms his niece in a plot to take the throne, murders his estranged wife.
Daemon fans: Oh Matt Smith is such an amazing actor!
Daemon: Chokes Rhaenyra.
Daemon fans: *surprised pikachu face*
Whatttt? You mean the toxic bad boy - she can still fix him though - would turn out to be an abusive partner?!
In the immortal words of Deji, “I had no knowledge of any of this! This is so… bizarre!”
Yep
Typical feminine way of looking at people. Females love bad boys...while they are bad to everybody else...but dream of taming them.
So when deamon is a bit violent to rhenyra...the female protagonist...everybody is upset
I don’t know think bringing up Daemons other violent outburst is really a could example. He’s not a good dude, and I believe the book version would not hesitate to choke Rhaenyra. However the show version has had many opportunities and much more reason to inflict violence on the people he cares about, and he never does up until now. Best you could say is all the events happening at once pushed him over the edge, even then it feels like a stretch.
@@hhhggbg3000 Just because he can doesn't mean he will and that in of itself isn't a declaration that he is good nor bad. Daemon strikes me as the type who, although prone to violence and anger, is a self-serving man. He can bottle up his emotions if it'll serve him in the moment. I view him not doing harm when he could as just that, him holding out because it doesn't gain him much. But here, when he strangles Rhaenyra, he basically is upset with her because she refuses to go to war even though he desperately wants one. Further more she informed him that his brother, the late king, had a great big secret that he shared with only Rhaenyra. That is a blow to his pride and one issue to many. So, after bottling up for so long, he snaps and begins to choke out Rhaenyra. I do think he loves her in his own way - but he literally groomed her so he could take the throne. Power is and always will be his first mistress.
I mean, he said he'd rather kill his sons than see them on the Greens and I don't think that was hyperbole. From what I've seen I don't think Daemon is a very good father or husband. Don't get me wrong, he loves his family, but he's too impulsive to really pull himself together and change in the way a man needs to change to be a better family man. I think the choking scene is important for us, and Rhaenyra, to know that he is a more loyal ally and soldier than spouse. I kinda hope this leads to tension between the two as Rhaenyra, I think, has really downplayed how much of a flawed person Daemon is.
I understand the issue with "accidents" in driving this plot forward but I feel this one enhances the story being told. The rest I agree were unnecessary and seemed to detract from the story but this one makes things more interesting. It's a microcosm of what the show has been portraying the Dance as, a tragedy that could have been avoided. Also, Aemond himself is more interesting now rather than feeling purely like a Daemon knockoff.
I think the accidental chomp is the only accident/coincidence that works really well for me. The other accidents/coincidences don't necessarily ruin the show for me, but they kind of pull me out of it as I feel the hand of the author pushing the story in the direction that it needs to go.
The accidental chomp is great though. It really shows the danger of giving these children the equivalent of nuclear weapons, of course they're going to do dumb stuff and it will inevitably lead to tragedy. Both of the kids are yelling no, attempting to convince these beasts of war to not go to war. You can tell that Aemond knows how badly he's fucked up, great performance by the actor.
It reminds me a lot of the first world war, in a way. Incompetent leaders bullied by hawks and one thing leads to another and they lose control. I wish the incompetence was more apparent though. I would have loved to see more pf Viserys or Otto running circles around him.
Beesbury did not feel like an accident to me, Criston did not seem shocked or surprised when his head cracked open. Felt more like they decided to film it in a way that Criston has some amount of deniability?
I wonder if, as the war intensifies, Aemond will be driven to act ever more recklessly and brutally, to live up to the reputation he's going to get after this. Now that he's done this, it would almost be worse to admit he didn't do it deliberately. Much better to be thought a murderer and a monster, than just a boy who lost control of a situation. There's power in being thought cruel and ruthless, there's no power in people thinking you're weak and incompetent.
@@dmgroberts5471 That’s well said. Especially since it seems that he idolizes his uncle Daemon, who is another loose cannon.
As a historian in training I died a bit in side when you said “it’s written like a history book with biases” 😭 we get practically flogged to to learn to write without bias in grad school. I know what you meant by the comment my scholarly trauma just kicked in 😅
I kind of agree that I didn't really like having Criston accidentally kill Beesbury, but making Alicent and Aemond a bit more sympathetic at the start are not bad changes in my opinion. I especially liked the accidental chomp in this episode. Already wrote a fairly long defense of it on Daniel Green's video, so I'm not going to bother doing it again :D
Was it accidental though
@@brandonlim5709 which one do you mean?
How is bashing in someone's head until the skull breaks an accident?
@@MiraTheWarlock I wasn't talking about Joffrey. I meant Lord Beesbury in the Council scene where he it's framed as him trying to push the old man into sitting back down but puts too much force into it
@@nezfromhki Oooooh
I mean it could be seen as an accident
Then again that was quite the amount of force
I think Daemon chocking Raenyra was meant to show that, despite the calmer and more empathic we've seen him grow into over the second half of the season, he still holds the brutality and determination we saw in the first half. I hope they really explore that dynamic between Raenyra and Daemon in the future. It makes the civil war feel less "good guys vs bad guys" but instead a conflict between a grey heap of characters you're not sure who to root for.
I’m intrigued by the idea of making this a more unintentional thing. I think the change *away* from cruel decisive action is going to inform that kind of action for Aemond later on in The Dance. He has to decide now how to take ownership of what happened. And it’s not easy. On one hand he can admit that he lost control over his dragon after he taunted and chased his nephew like a villain in a slasher film. On the other hand, he can lean into it, say that he had every intention of killing Luke, and embrace being a kind later and igniting war in a very literal way. I don’t think that Otto or even Aegon would want to make it known that the Greens don’t have complete control of a gigantic flying weapon of mass destruction, and I don’t believe Aemond’s pride would allow him to admit it either. Imagine the inner conflict that drives his angler and frustration as he leans so hard into the stigma that he actually becomes it instead of just pretending to.
"I took a calculated risk, but boy am i bad at math" - Aemond, probably
I am loving the characterisation of dragons as autonomous beings that are not fully being controlled by their riders - Vhaegar chomping him in a mildly awful way reminded me of my American Staffy puppy chomping a butterfly and then spitting it back out in disgust (they don't taste like butter) 🤣😭 it was a beautiful Bambi moment where it landed on her nose and then she CHOMP
I personally really like the choice to have Lucerys' death not be intentional on Aemond's part, in part because of the way it reinforces that idea that dragons are extremely dangerous and not disposed to being controlled, and in part because it presents Aemond with another really interesting choice.
He can go back home and tell the truth, which means admitting that he cannot control his dragon, something which would be utterly humiliating for any Targaryen, but especially Aemond, or he can lie and take credit for Lucerys' murder and be branded as a Kinslayer, which in this world is one of the most shameful things you can be.
I haven't read the book, but accidents happen in life. Historians try to find purposes and links, thinks that lead from point A to point B. But I like that this series puts at the center that people don't control everything (their destinies?) and that... Shit happen. It's pure tragedy and I like it a lot!
So the chomp: very good (he was still trying to bully ''his nephew'' to take his eye. It was still his intention. And I like that the Green, who, except Alicent, don't have very likeable characters, have moments of ''not so evil'' (the: oops, I didn't mean it is so humane, I liked it). It breaks the good and bad opposition that has been built since the 2nd half of the series.
I never read the books, but when it was showing Lucerys being afraid and uncertain about having responsibility, it gave me a strong feeling he was going to die. I feel accidents in life are most likely to occur when people are either very complacent, or hesitant/uncertain in what they do.
I thought the episode was very well done, it hurts to see the kids being dragged in to things they themselves don't really want, how little petty events in childhood can grow into something horrible, tangling everyone barely involved. What could've been, if there wasn't a prank? Maybe some other reason for bloodshed.
Here are some decisive, unaccidrntal moments that changed the plot (as there are no shortage of them): Aemond stealing Vhagar, Rhaenyra sleeping with Sir Criston, Larys killing his family, Viserys hobbling into the throneroom, as I think his support for her imbued Rhaenyra with a big portion of the zeal that drove her through the Dance.
Aemond seems like he's gonna claim credit for Lucerys's death. So far he's been shown to be very self conscious of his image and he's spun what would normally be insults to his advantage (like getting his eye cut out by someone younger than him). At best I think he'll say it was an accident if it's pressed by someone he trusts (like his mother or [SPOILER CHARACTER]).
I really hope the spoiler character is the one to help him cope with that.
The finale was PERFECTION, and the season as a whole is a 9.5/10. 🔥🔥🔥🔥
I like the idea that it was accidental because to me it shows how smart aemond really is. Aemond may be a kid and dumb for chasing Luce, but he knew killing him would be a terrible decision and instantly knows he messed up
I don’t mind accidents as long you don’t have too many of them in a row. One accident causing characters to take decisive actions is fine, an accident leading to another accident which causes another accident just leads to the characters being pulled along by the plot instead of driving it forwards. Though to give them credit it’s really hard to portray a conflict and make it feel inevitable but also that the characters all had agency, so I’d rather they sacrifice one or the other to tell a good story than to try and force that feeling to fit at the cost of other aspects.
You write RUclips comments
@@arthurballs9632 Yes this is my third one on this video. Though technically this one was written first.
@@fakjbf3129 Phenomenal achievement.
yeah i do think the show is doing way to much to make it all accidents, misunderstandings, and bad coincedences. Like some are inevitable and good, but its also good to show how humans are vulnerable, and make mistakes, and bad descisions, and stupid mean ones, and then are forced to face consequences.
Aemond when the prank goes too far:
Walter White in the car: *VHAGAR! VHAGAR! NO, IT WAS JUST A PRANK, AEMOND JUST WANTED TO SCARE HIM, VHAGARRR!!!*
HotD has a large subtheme about second sons, what better way to start the Dance than for a second son to kill a second son.
While I agree with you that agency is important, in this case, I don't think it would have made sense for Aemond to just outright murder Luke. Sure, he is arrogant, angry and bitter, but he also takes his duty seriously, he knows there's no glory in killing a child, and he hasn't proven himself to be a completely unhinged character. This change makes more sense with the Aemond we have known so far, making his progression into violence more complex. It has the added value of making the dragons feel like more than props. When mishandled, taking away agency can feel like a forced plot, but you can also make it feel like a tragedy. It's not like Luke just fell off his dragon and people blamed Aemond. He unnecessarily escalated a situation with a giant living weapon and will pay for his hubris.
Edit:
I think he'll have to claim that he did it on purpose because 1: who would believe him anyway? and 2: he can't just say he lost control of his dragon.
Having to play the role of the monster will make him a monster. Maybe after the whole Blood and Cheese mess he will try to confess to his mom or sister, but too late anyway.
"and he hasn't proven himself to be a completely unhinged character"
Um, this is the same kid who mere minutes afte claiming Vhagar was already threatening people (his much younger nephews and nices at that) with having them fed to his dragon and burned alive. And now we have him here throwing a tantrum because Luke refuses to take out his own eye and lunging at him to take it himself.
And that's just in the show, in the books he was far worse, the walking definition of unhinged psycopath.
@@warrenhillston5899 😂 Yeah, I see your point, but you can understand how in a show where his brother is a serial rapist who likes to see little kids fight, his uncle is, well, Daemon, and his mentor ser Criston Cole kills anyone who mildly inconveniences him, his threats don't stand out as much. If anything, he was mostly talk up until this point. But even if you still believe him capable of that level of violence at this point of his character arc (obviously he does become ruthless by the end, I should have added a 'yet'), I don't know if I believe him that stupid. He de-escalated the situation after losing his eye, he was smart enough not to accuse Alicent of questioning the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children, and he didn't let his brother escape despite his personal feelings. This was the Green's worst move, so making it completely intentional makes Aemond look completely irrational.
@@trinidadgondi Yeah I agree. At this point at least, it feels like Aemond is too smart to do anything that stupid. He knew he couldn't kill Luc, which is why he only demanded an eye, otherwise he could have just killed him for it long ago.
Daemon's theme is a dark, morose and lonely one. It plays when he rows out alone to surrender to the Crabfeeder. One of the best themes in this universe I think.
Page 399 of Fire and Blood says “the Eyrie was presently ruled by a woman, Lady Jeyne, the Maiden of the Vale, whose own rights might be called into question should Princess Rhaenyra be put aside.” I’ve skimmed from the Great Council to the Battle at Rook’s Rest and couldn’t find anything about why the male lords supported Aegon, so I think Martin just left it unsaid because it’s so obvious.
It's not specifically about Aegon, but when Rosby and Stokeworth lose their lords when they're executed Corlys argues against their lands falling to their young daughters because it might turn the lords against Rhaenyra, and that Rhaenyra is a special case (on 467)
The Great Council’s ruling is just being used as a precedent. The real issue had to do with rules and traditions around marriage, inheritance and legacy.
If all of your House’ titles and holdings falls to the woman, and if that woman gets married to a man of another house, that man would have claim over the former’s House titles and holdings, effectively bringing an end to one house while increasing the stature of another.
Targaryen exceptionalism aside, Viserys created a problem by naming his daughter his heir, then tried to hand a variation of that type if problem off to Corlys, who’s house is now facing the same issue.
The details of a similar problem was brought up in the books. A Lady of I don’t remember of which minor house in the North, Lord husband had died leaving no heirs, and she was assumed to be near past her child bearing years and there wasn’t any close relatives to pass the house to.
I don’t remember their decision, but it didn’t matter since Ramsey paid her a visit and attempted to extract the rights to the noble house from her.
One of the things I really liked was that the setup from the prophecy accounts for Rhaenyra’s change in philosophy from the books.
Because there, she is furious and ambitious and ready to go to war because she believes the throne is all that’s important as she was raised to believe it was her sole right and duty… but the show introduced a separate element with the prophecy. Now, her duty isn’t to herself but to the realm and she has a decision to make.
Is it more important that she sits the Iron Throne or that it stands united behind its king in the event that the great darkness should come in their lifetimes? It’s something she has to take into account, even though no one else will, because it’s now something only she knows about. She can still make a claim for the throne, but it will come at the cost of the united realm her father held together for so many years and in advancing her claims in his name, she destroys his legacy in the process.
The inclusion of the prophecy adds a whole new dimension to her character that simply isn’t present in the book, just like her friendship with Alicent, that means she is much more reluctant to want to go to war in the first place. Book Rhaenyra and Alicent loathe each other and were waiting for the first opportunity to stab each other but if that changes, then their reactions to his death have to likewise change. But what drives Rhaenyra away from even contemplating this path is the death of her youngest son, something she’ll believe is an act of intentional murder from which none of Alicent’s keepsakes will spare her wroth. (Even though Alicent sending the torn page from episode one was the second most heartbreaking moment of the episode for me and highlights what a tragedy has been imposed on these characters by circumstances around them.)
It’s a tragic and poetic change from the source material that I really appreciate. I’ve generally been on Team Alicent before now but Rhaenyra really won me around to Team Black this time, this was her episode. The shot of her wearing her father’s crown after Viserys’ funeral as her theme’s choir chants louder than ever before was stunningly beautiful. I have no other words for it. 🖤
i didn’t see criston murdering lymon as an accident, just kinda subtle
Me neither, he banged the dude's head against a stone. It may have been an impulsive decision, but a decision none the less.
Yeah, I saw it with this going through his mind;
Criston;
(Then your the first to go, you stupid fool… Bam!… Good riddance!… Ahh. I hope I don’t get in trouble for that.)
His Lord Commander draws his sword…
ASOIAF and Dunk and Egg are full of accidents and misunderstandings driving the plot and major parts of history. It's a key part of George's writing, and parts of GOT people loved. What he does though is have characters then make decisions based on those accidents and misunderstandings. And also those characters did make decisions. Alicent decided to listen to Viserys and then push Aegon forward, she's not obligated to. There's no one else there to hear it, she could've let it go and decided to spare the realm after finally making amends with Rhaenyra. There's no dragon to her head saying she has to. Aemond decided he wanted to chase Luke and seriously harm him at least by carving out his eye at the very least. He's so out of control in that moment and chase I would be shocked if he really did stop with just an eye. It's more like the writers granted the characters their wishes. Viserys finally telling Alicent, as far as she can tell, that Aegon should succeed him but it's right after she gave up the fight. After years of dreaming about it, Aemond gets to take his revenge on Luke for taking out his eye. And it's at the worst time and way more than he consciously intended but subconsciously wanted. Their wishes are granted, and they now regret ever wanting those things is more what they were going for. And for Aemond in particular, Condal noted this is when Aemond's last shred of innocence is killed with Luke. So it's going to be something he owns and embraces going forwards, that he does want to be more like Daemon rather than Viserys.
And here's the quotes you were looking for
"He had nothing against women, Lord Borros went on to say; he loved his girls, a daughter is a precious thing…but
a son, ahhh…should the gods ever grant him a son of his own blood, Storm’s and would pass to him, not to his sisters. “Why should the Iron Throne be any different?” And with a royal marriage in the offing…Rhaenyra’s cause was lost, she would see that when she learned that she had lost Storm’s End, he would tell her so himself…bow down to your brother, aye, it’s for the best, his girls would fight with each other sometimes, the way girls do, but he saw to it they always made peace afterward…"
"But the Queen’s Hand argued against this, for both girls had younger brothers. Rhaenyra’s own claim to the Iron Throne was a special case, the Sea Snake insisted; her father had named her as his heir. Lords Rosby and Stokeworth had done no such thing. Disinheriting their sons in favor of their daughters would overturn centuries of law and precedent, and call into question the rights of scores of other lords throughout Westeros whose own claims might be seen as inferior to those of elder sisters."
@@JoeMagician
@Joe Magician
I have some thoughts (as inevitable as I know the Dance is): I can imagine the Dornish question _may_ potentially come up- & people in the audience too, are likely going to raise it in their commentary.
While this whole conflict is ignoring the established Dornish custom- at this point, they're *still* regarded as a foreign entity- why would looking to _Dornish_ inheritance customs be any more relevant to the future of *the Iron Throne* , than the inheritance tradition of say- Volantis, or Qohor?
Also, it has a 'foreign' origin, in it being Rhoynish- & beyond that; Dorne itself is not quite as unified in this matter as many perceive- yes, several Dornish houses in 'present-day' are either currently ruled by women, or have female heirs - however, it isn't so cut & dried; there's said to be more adherence to Westerosi traditions, the more Andal the house/ region- ie. Allyria Dayne is only regent for her nephew, Edric 'Ned' Dayne- she's older, but custom dictates that the elder brother/ siblings' children inherited first.
Anyway- some, all, or none of this may get to be discussed- just my thoughts....
I wonder if "The Chomp" will catch on like other famous phrases in TV pop culture. The Red Wedding. The Snap. The Chomp.
Jaehaerys the Conciliator was Viserys's and Daemon's grandfather. Baelon the Brave, Jaehaerys's second son, was their father.
I think Aemond will take credit publicly, but likely admit it privately. He cannot afford to admit he does not have full control of Vhagar, but he does seem to have a good relationship with his mother and a few others.
It was such a callback to the beginning of the season when Queen Aemma was giving birth and how different the two went. Really well done.
I love the idea that episodes 9 and 10 respectively portray the opposing factions. Although maybe not perfectly executed, especially episode 9, but it was overall an interesting writing decision I liked to see explored.
I LOVED the changed with Lucerys being killed "accidentally" (Aemond is still completely responsible!). It made me feel so much. I can't get over Aemond's panicking after being so cocky. It's perfectly fine that he just wades into the war crimes instead of jumping in head first lol. Aemond *did* make a bad decision for malicious reasons... Terrifying his nephew and intended to cause him harm isn't exactly warm and fuzzy intentions even if he didn't want him to actually die. I bet Aemond will own it because no one would believe him if he said it was an accident and it would make him appear weak.
The accidental chomp gave me a flipping heart attack 😳
I think he will take responsibility for “the chomp” just cause otherwise he has to admit weakness of being unable to control his dragon
I don't disagree with having more of the causes of the dance being decisions instead of accidents but I think it's also a great way to show how history is made by historians not actual events alot of the time. Nobody but Aemond could have known it was an accident so to the rest of the world it was on purpose.
I know I am several months late to the party, but I wanted to add my thoughts: Daemon always seemed to be driven by family. He wanted his brothers love and respect, but got pushed away, he loved Rhaenyra but could not get her (until later). Now, that -winter- war is coming he stands with his family: Rhaenyra and her children. Why he is already preparing for war while Rhaenyra is in childbirth is obvious I believe. He immdiately orders everyone to secure Dragonstone in case the Greens want to attack or send an assassin. Something they were clearly planning to do, or at least Otto and his co-conspirators wanted to do, which proves Daemon right. With Rhaenyra advocating for peace he does see Viserys in her which probably frustrates him. In the beginning of the show he said he would protect his brother Viserys from himself and the people trying to take advantage of him (Otto for example). This desire for peace even though war is seemingly unavoidable reminds him (Daemon) of Viserys' weakness that was responsible for letting it come to this point in the first place.
There is also another point to this: the heir to the throne is told about Aegons prophecy. Yet despite Daemon being heir in the beginning of the show Viserys never told him, further proving that Daemon was always intended to be replaced by Viserys child. To Daemon being heir was important not just because of ambition and lust for power - I believe - but also because he wants his brothers love, respect and acknowledgment, yet Viserys pushes Daemon away. "All you ever did was send me away, to the Vale, to the City Watch."
But as long as Daemon is heir Viserys can't completely push him away. An heir is needed for stabilization, so being heir was Daemons reinsurance that no matter what happens, Viserys can't push him away too far.
As far as I know Martin described Daemon as having "light and darkness in equal parts" or something along those lines and while he is charismatic I wish we would see more positive traits like honour or loyalty from him. Instead of a character that is likable despite a bad personality I wish he would be a more sympathetic character instead of "just a badass".
This episode also introduces the most important rule when dealing with dragons: Thou art crunchy, and good with ketchup.
HoTD seems to subscribe to a Tolstoyan interpretation of history. That is: History happens regardless of most of our actions, on an accident. Great people influencing history is a farçe.
That's why it may seem many things happen despite the people in power trying their hardest not to let them happen.
13:44 the line you're looking for is later...
SPOILERS FOR THE LATER DANCE
... Is in relation to marrying to dragonseeds to the daughters of Rosby and Stokeworth to reward them, yet the girls has younger brothers:
"Disinheriting their sons in favour of their daughters would overturn centuries of law and precident, and call into question the right of scores of other lords throughout Westeros who's own claims may be seen as inferior to older sisters" - The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Triumphant.
Nice I was also struggling to find the line. I scoured the part about the great council and rhaenys’ disinheritance and couldn’t find it. Kudos to you!
Lord Bees getting killed was a bit lame, I will agree. But I like the accidentally killing of Lucerys. Aemond wants to be king and is super sure of his abilities, so giving him that moment of “I don’t control my powers the way I think I do and this will have consequences” I think is better than him just murdering the boy.
I had the *chomp* spoiled for me since r/freefolk has an anti-spoiler marking policy, apparently. That being said, I noticed a bit of the foreshadowing before the *chomp* in the editing. The opening shot of the table turns into a scene with Lucerys and Rhaenyra where he tells her she's perfect and they have a beautiful moment. During the coronation, the camera slowly zooms into Luke when both brothers are on screen. When they first fly off, they emphasize Luke and Arrax to show that he's got the smallest dragon before disappearing into the dark clouds. Then all the really obvious stuff, like Vhagar greeting Luke in the storming courtyard. It was so sad to see Arrax visibly distressed while Luke tried to calm him down.
Despite being spoiled, I still really liked and enjoyed the episode. I wasn't sure how I felt about some of the actors after only seeing them a handful of times before, but I really liked them in this episode.
Vhagar when Arrax blasted her mustve been like: "that little bitch didnt just blast me, now ill show him why Dorne is a desert" xD
Haven't even seen the show yet, but I love how much more excited you are about this show compared to Rings of Power. I'm actually excited to give this show a watch now
Fun fact: the finale flight/fight (the chomp chomp) was inspired by the finale battle of How to Train Your Dragon. And its been confirmed by the HotD director, Greg Yaitanes
I liked the "accident" of Lucerys' death because 1) it showed how thin and fragile the control of dragons by their riders is when it really comes down to it despite all the Targaryen and Velaryon pride and pretending 2) Aemond gets to see the consequences of his petty feud, a sort of "oh hey, my recklessness has really bad consequences. Sort of like those frat party hazings that go horribly wrong.
I don't have an issue with the "accident" changes they've made from the book, because it's added so much nuance to the story that isn't possible in a narrative non-fiction book like Fire and Blood. Aemond still *chose* to chase Luke down, but him having the foresight to know that he didn't want to actually kill him and exacerbate a war and his dragon making that choice instead was so interesting. It's still 100% his fault, but not his intention. That sort of nuance is where this show has thrived, and I've loved every small tweak they've made so far.
Otto and the greens would have went to war regardless, Alicent misunderstanding felt more specific to giving her the push to go along with the rest of them.
The same applies with the chomp, the war would have happened eventually anyways, this unfortunate accident or another one.
I don't dislike the accidents because of people like Damon and Otto who ARE makeing decisions to go to war.
The Borros quote you were looking for: He had nothing against women, Lord Borros went on to say, he loved his girls, a daughter is a precious thing... but a *son*, ahh... should the gods ever grant him his own blood, Storm's End would pass on to him, not his sisters. "Why should the iron throne be any different?"
Yeah, Borros is crazy sleazy in this passage. (and just generally the disappointment Baratheon.)
Tim, I am currently figuring out that I have been very disconnected from myself the last 3 years and only now rediscovering what I actually like and I can tell you - you just talking in depth about these fictional universes makes me very happy. It is just so great to see your interest and appreciation for everything.
To answer the aemond reaction question - I think he totally will try to claim he killed Luke deliberately.
I think what's going on, is that the characters in S1 are going to eventually become the people that get portrayed in the history books. Rhaenyra and Allicent are trying their best to find peaceful solutions now, but history remembers them as bitter enemies, and I think we're about to see their relationship deteriorate. In the vein, Aemond One Eye is remember by history as a vicious anime villain, not a socially awkward bullied kid, and I think circumstances are going to lead him to become hardened and reflect that. It's already started to happen with him.
I look forward to your HotD thoughts every week, Tim! Haven’t even started the video yet.
It's basically an Otto vs Daemon blood match 26 years in the making.
I knew the kid was dead before he took off from Dragonstone unaccompanied and green as all could-be, but as soon as we saw Aemond's dragon already there in the courtyard....it was only a question of exactly how soon.
I recently watched one of your older videos. What an evolution in quality!
The characters are making decisions; they just don't think the consequences through. Both Aemond and Serr Criston made the choice to attack, yet they didn't measure their strength. The Targaryens attack each other, and they don't realize the strength of their attacks and the damage they are capable to do.
That's the whole point of the conflict. The Targaryens are so strong that they are blind to their own weaknesses, which will become their downfall.
Aemond will never admit he can't controll his dragon. He has to own it
Rhaenys isn't even a distant cousin she is literally Borros's first cousin and he doesn't even seem to know that
Yeah, I know a lot of folks who thought Daemon’s actions were it or character because he’s always had a reason to commit violence (war, Justice, or politics) and always had a soft spot for Rhaenyra, but what if his “reasons “were really “excuses” to commit violence and having boundaries is often the mistake victims of violent abusers always make in thinking
I saw the Chomp as less of Aemond not wanting to kill Lucerys/only killing him on accident and more as not wanting to kill him _like that_ . For that matter, I'm not even sure this paints him as more sympathetic as I saw his frustration be more about all the things he didn't get to do to Luke rather than Luke dying per se.
Drogon ALLEGEDLY ate ONE kid.
This episode was brilliant and I can only imagine what there is to come. A couple of quick thoughts below:
Daemon: He is an agent of chaos and I love the character for that. Our brains are wired to always categorize, so it makes sense that people aim for him to be "good" or "bad". But his chaos usually makes him unpredictable and that's what I find fascinating. That's why him chocking Raenyra felt oddly natural for the character to do, as despicable as that might be.
Conflict-choice-consequence: I totally see what you mean with regards to the characters accidentally doing something vs deciding to do it. In an effort to portray the characters as more gray, their decisions are watered down a lot of the times. It's a choice I find interesting, and I can actually understand, though it is tricky because your character choices loose strength, and hence they give you weaker consequences. However, it doesn't matter if the one eye did it by accident or not, what matters is how he will show himself to the rest of the green side.
From getting your son murdered to taking a side: Rhaenys has been one of my favorite characters. I think she felt they had already chosen a side even if she strongly disagree with it. But her defending Raenyra's stand and choosing to side with her felt odd. If she truly believe she murdered her son, I find it hard to believe that she would be so willing to help her. So her deciding to side with them like that felt odd. Their daughters are promised to Raenyra's sons, so I guess that's one reason, but still, not fully convince...
Great video as always!
I actually really liked the accidental dragon chompening. I think it works on several levels.
First of all, if we view dragons as a metaphor for nuclear weapons, the fact that Lucerys and Aemond lose control of their dragons can be seen as a statement on the dangers of escalation, how in certain situations (i.e. the Cuban Missile Crisis), things can escalate out of control and lead to war, even if neither side really wants it.
The real reason why I like it though, is how it ties into the theme of intergenerational conflict that you talked about previously. On one level, we have parents pushing their conflicts onto their children, who eventually internalize and perpetuate them. The beautiful tragedy of House of the Dragon is that it shows the parents realizing that this conflict won't end well for any of them, and trying to pull back from it. However, by that point, it's too late because their children have already internalized the conflict, and won't back away from it. We see this in the dinner scene in episode 8, where it looks like Alicent and Rhaenyra might genuinely reconcile, but their children (who don't have the memory of Alicent and Rhaenyra being friends once) are still at each others' throats.
However, we also see that the children are in the same situation with their dragons. They pass down their conflicts onto their dragons (who may be responding to their riders' subconscious desires), and by time they realize that it won't end well, it's too late and their dragons keep going against their wishes. We see the same conflicts passed down again and again, and each time the people who initially started the conflict have less and less ability to stop it.
I wasn't expecting the accidental chomp, but ultimately, I'm fine with it. For starters, the dragons are just more interesting when they have some agency and personality of their own, and at the end of the day, these are two kids riding them as opposed to someone who's been paired with their dragon for a lifetime. Aemond still decided to confront Lucerys. He may not have wanted to kill him, but he could have easily let him go. Instead, he chose to stop him in the throne room and chose to chase after him (through a storm no less). More so, I don't see him admitting it was an accident, mostly because that would mean admitting that he isn't capable of controlling Vhagar. That's a kind of 'weakness' I don't think he will want associated with him considering the pride he has being the rider of the largest dragon. So we end up with an ambitious second son, trying to do his duty as expected of him but wanting more, accidently causing the first blow in the war to come (which happens to give him a chance to gain more in the future) and being labeled a kinslayer for it. No doubt that will end up playing a part in how he approaches situations in the future as the war goes on. First step though, he has to overcome disappointing his mother.
And by doing that it emphasises that the targaryens don't have full control of their dragons. And makes the war more tragic as there was a chance for peace and most of the characters didn't want a civil war.
That quotation by Lord Baratheon reflecting on how the royal succession issue compares to his, according to an amateur audio reading on RUclips, is in chapter 14, roughly halfway through. (I dare not put the title of the chapter because it’s a bit of a spoiler.)
‘He had nothing against women, Lord Borros went on to say; he loved his girls, a daughter is a precious thing… but a *son*, ahhh… should the gods ever grant him a son of his own blood, Storm’s End would pass to him, not to his sisters. “Why should the iron throne be any different?“ ‘
PS: On a re-listen, maybe this is only part of what you were looking for, I’m not sure if the part you couldn’t find is this part or the part where there’s a broader comparison with how it might affect the other noble houses.
Hey, hope you read this. i haven't read the books so a lot of it is new to me, i don't go out of my way to know spoilers other than watching your channel(love your content) and wisecrack. i like that a lot of it isn't deliberate, i feel a lot of game of thrones was so calculated and chess-like that characters started to seems almost godlike. which tends to happen with any work of fiction but with HOTD there's a more human element to their mistakes and decision, characters unknowingly making both good and often bad decisions. especially with the "chump", it's easy to forget these people are still sorta kids, and they are handling dragons, humans in real life struggle with dogs and cats, and we see what happens when we tame less domestic animals. And, now he has to take responsibility for what happened, because there are witnesses to his hostility at Stormfront and past moments.
Vhagar had PTSD flashbacks to Dorne when Arrax flamed her face lmao
Here's what I think people mean when they say daemon choking Rhaenyra feels out of character.
It's not out of character for him to choke his wife we've seen him kill a wife and be distant from another, but it is out of character for him with Rhaenyra specifically.
Everytime we see him with her he's kind, gentle, defends her with his life, so when he suddenly turns on her it doesn't feel right.
I wish the show hadn't been so heavy-handed with foreshadowing Lucerys' fate. At latest at the point where Rhaenyra looks into the camera and says "I'm sure you'll receive a warm welcome." everyone could figure out Luke was a goner. That being said, I like the change they did with this one. It builds on the theme of these people toeing recklessly on the line of war and egging each other on until someone takes a fatal misstep. The cycle of violence and retribution that will follow is going to feel so much more tragic knowing that recklessness and accident lie at it's core.
The accidental chomp rather worked for me. You said it yourself The Dance is told by the accounts of Maesters who weren’t there. Their accounts are biased.
Like media today you can turn a saint into villain. The fact that Aemond( a teen btw) took his living nuke to terrorize and bully another kid on the back of another nuke. Chompy chomp by accident seems more likely in my humble opinion. Though I will concede some of the “accidents” were unnecessary but I could see why the show runners did this.
The beautiful thing about the TV series is that it is not a history like the book written by a maester hundreds of years later. The camera puts you in the actual moment, letting you see subtle emotions and mistakes a maester would have no way of knowing, like young men unable to control their dragons, where a simple bullying incident becomes a sky-rage incident that pushes the realm into a war so many tried to prevent. If you think of dragons as nukes and angry passions and accidents that inadvertently cause war, it has ominous parallels with the current nuclear threats being bandied about between Russia and NATO. Any little incident can accidentally cause a war. Art imitating life or the other way around. I think the choke Daemon gave Rhaenyras was because her reluctance to war reminded him of his brother Viscyres, who wanted peace at all costs. He wanted to squeeze her father’s reluctance out of her. Yet he also loved his brother and this sibling love-hate wars within his heart. There’s far more subtlety in the TV series, which must be far more nuanced that a chapter or two in a book, and remember GRRM has full input on all of it.
My boyfriend pointed out that Baratheon might not have been able to read, hence why he had to send for his Maester. This, the Queen embarrasses him, whereas the King sent a smaller delegation to TALK to him.
I feel like him coaching Arrax to be calm was that bonding moment for me, though perhaps it could have been a little bit more loving
I loved the chomp, in fact I loved the whole series.
I have only read one of the books being A Song of Ice and Fire, so this time period is brand new to me, and I rely on people like Tim to fill in some things I might not have understood.
Usually I hate accidents, coincidences (think of the dreadfully written Rings of Power) but this is so gripping I don't care.
We've seen world wars spiral out of control due to coincidences so it can happen anyway.
I actually like the plotlines of accidents or mistakes escalating into huge scandals and eventually to war. It highlights the danger of reckless rhetoric and pointless bravado and how so many people who see each other as sworn enemies really don't have a leg to stand on in the end. It also ties into Mr. Martin's themes of how excessively powerful people affect the lives of so many through their actions, both the calculated plans and the impulsive in-the-moment actions.
I love how the book being an in world history gives us events with some historians opinion of how they happened. Yet we can watch the show and see the human complexity that would happen with any historical event before it became “history“ treating episode 10 like episode nine traditionally was was the best option!
I wonder if Aemond will lie and basically go "I did kill him on purpose, but only after he called [Alicent] a whore" or something like that; owning up to killing Luce, but not owning up to the fact it was his actions alone that have now started a war.
"Huh, that dragon is REALLY big, maybe don't go in there kid."
"Told you so, now you're running back all scared."
"ooh shit there she is, above you."
"Oh cool you got away, be cool, be cool."
"oooops, you fucked up."
"Aemond gonna be in sooooooooo much trouble."
The chomp works like in our world is someone playing with a loaded gun. Is not until you accidentally press the trigger that you realize the consequences of your actions and the life you ended. I’m intrigued on how this will affect aemond who portrayed himself as the stable guy but in reality he still a young man. Will he be a tragic Jaime like character or will he become mad. So many pathways for his arc, regarding the accidents in the show I think for now it works and shows the tragedy of a ruling family mad with power
This is episode was more traumatic in the birth sequence. This show is literally just House of the traumatic births. That's more reeling than anything else I've seen on the show.
However, we were told VERY early by Viserys that it "is an illusion that we control the dragon". It is shown when Daemon goes to Vermithor that there is an understanding that he is just a visitor in that dragon's place. Daemon is an interesting character in the sense that he is strategic and cunning while also being volatile.
10:37 I don´t know if the show mixed things up, but Jaeherys isn´t Viserys` father, he was his grandfather
Aemond thinking he can control Vhagar reminds me of Quentyn Martell from the main series of books, where he tries to steal one of Dany's dragons but... [spoilers]
gets himself killed.
All that accident means is that Dragons have an agency that their riders fail to recognize
So @16:13 Morning isn’t born until toward the end of the war and does not exist yet, and probably won’t exist until the last season of the show unless of course they change things in adaptation. So really it’s just Syrax, Meleys, Caraxes, Vermax and Moondancer vs Vhagar, Sunfyre and Dreamfyre, in terms of dragons with riders.
I suppose we can count on Vermithor, Silverwing and Seasmoke to be on Team Black, but of course they are currently riderless.
I'm fairly certainthey are watering down characters critical decisions because HBO wants the audience to be split on who to support. And to an extent, it's working. While nobody in my friend group thinks Aegon has a legitimate claim to the throne - we are fiercely divided on whether Alicent is morally superior to Rhanerya, or vice versa.
It also just makes for better writing. If everyone in one camp was pure evil, it would be impossible to empathize with the characters at all. GoT did this too, in how they sanitized Tyrion's character so that there would be someone on the Lannister side the audience could root for un-apologetically and it worked. The Dance is supposed to be a tragedy. Watching everyone die won't feel so tragic if they're all complete assholes.
It would look worse for Aemond if he admits that he can't control Vaghar. He'll own the kill to look fearsome.
I think they’ll end up saying the chomp was intentional. War was already seeming inevitable, and if the chomp was accidental (it was, but if people knew it was) they could lose legitimacy, just for losing control of their dragons.