Guys, you need to make some kind of overall yearly ratings, like the best working AWD systems with locks/no locks. Your practical research is priceless...
They bag on Haldex because it's still inferior to the Torsen quattro, and it makes the car feel FWD - because it is most of the time. Carwow did a snow test between 3 types of quattro: Haldex, Torsen and the one in the E-Tron (not sure if it has a name). Torsen was noticeably better then Haldex, while the E-Tron was better than Torsen.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers technically correct, it's not a Haldex but works exactly the same. It actually has an advantage over Haldex due to that smart differential at the rear. Yet it still came second to the traditional Torsen system. Also, where did they say they used different tyres? Pretty sure they used winter tyres on all 3 cars.
@@xIcarus227 It doesn't work exactly the same. Haldex is powering rear axle via open differential, not each wheel separately and independently. When it comes to tyres - it is stated in description of their video. Only the test with the same winter tyres would be valid for conclusions.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers sure, they replaced the open diff with an LSD, hence the advantage I was talking about. It's still the same principle of operation as Haldex where you control the front-rear split with a clutch pack, and the maximum torque sent to the rear is still 50%. That's functionally the same. And yes, I see now that they used summer tyres on all cars. It's still a good test as long as there isn't a massive difference between the tyres, the only difference is that the baseline traction will be lower. Still, you're right, ideally we'd want the exact same tyre on all 3 cars. So it's not a conclusive test, but merely gives us an idea.
After watching at 0.25x speed, the first generation had about 1/4 of a wheel revolution before the rear engages. The second is around 1/8 of a rotation and fourth 1/16. Otherwise they seem to perform pretty similar.
@@silviuflorescu6838 There are different opinions on that, some say that 4th is quicker but that can be felt only under big load, not during standard driving. The question is how does 6th works in relation to 5th and 4th.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers I'll look for it. Anyway, it would be interested to see filmed cars tunned with haldex controllers (vdveer, hpa, etc), to see the differences between stock - off - fully engaged mode. I want to buy one for my 4th gen and don't know which one to choose..
I would love to see an rs3 on these. especially the new 8y or a mk8 golf r with the torgue splitter. I "only" have an 8v with the open diff and gen 5 haldex. but you can adjuist the agressiveness of the haldex with the drivemodes. I wonder how much differnce is there cause when i look at the data over obd i can see the haldex engageing way earlier and more with it on dynamic compared to comfort.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers Your bio says youre from poland, i dont know exactly where. Im from western germany so its a bit of a schlepp but not impossible. if i ever get the chance to visit while traveling when im somewhat nearby, I'll let you know in advance.
W zasadzie test porównania generacji Haldex mógłby zakończyć się w pierwszych 35 sekundach, reszta to kwestia EDL Audi i Otwartego Mechanizmu Różnicowego na przedniej i tylnej osi pojazdu. W generacji 4 Haldex spina od początku jakieś dociekanie w slow motion to doszukiwanie się dziury w całym, bez slow motion przecież perfidnie widać, że w gen 1/2 spięcie sprzęgieł występuje po uślizgu przedniej osi natomiast w gen4 zaraz po dodanie gazu, jakiekolwiek „opóźnienie” wynika jedynie z drogi jaka występuje od przekładni kątowej z przodu pojazdu, wału napędowego do haldexa i od haldexa do tylnego dyfra i na półosie, dodając do tego poduszki / tuleje gumowe / przeguby na półosiach czy same luzy na zębach w przekładniach.. więc występuje takie zjawisko jak naprężenie napędu i jego luz. W samym FWD też to występuje tylko nie ma punktu odniesienia załączenia sprzęgła do momentu obrotu kół, ale można to odczuć podczas wrzucenia któregoś z biegu na postoju bez hamulca ręcznego i obserwujemy że samochód możemy bujać w przód i tył mimo że jest na biegu. Tak samo się dzieje jak kręcimy kołem na podnośniku.. wyraźnie czujemy luz do momentu zazębienia przekładni .. i to jest to całe „opóźnienie” widoczne jedynie w slow motion od gen 4…
I'm curious how much the HALDEX I plug mode modifies the behavior on those tests (it applies a pre-constraint on the Haldex Clutch). It feels much more snappier, before the mode I could feel the weight transfer when traction in the back kicked in, but with the plug you can't feel the activation, it seems it's coming before you start any slip) but I don't have the rollers to test. Any possibility you can test this some day? Or maybe you already did and I'm blind ;)
@@marcinmarx "Quattro" or "4Motion" are just a trademarks, a marketing names, they do not mean any particular systems. 4Motion may be also based on torsen and other solutions, depends which model you consider. The same with quattro, here are all types since 1980: ruclips.net/video/FADv7oPPgMY/видео.html
interesting results. I though that the last test will be easier than previous (isn't TT RWD biased?), but it seems it is another way. and what is going on with newest model? why it failed last test?
TT is FWD biased, just like A3. When it comes to last test, it should be considered as passed cause car did spin the wheel with grip. Tarmac of that car park was really slippery.
If the ABS could have just a bit larger hydraulic pump in the ABS system, it could finally transfer enough torque to the standing wheel. Btw do we get to see something 4/AWD fitted with an LSD sometime? Maybe a VAG with a wavetrac in the rear? :D
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers Being a former ECU software developer I'm positive those ABS/ESP/EDS ECUs pushed their 'pump button' as hard as they could for the _only-one-rear-wheel_ test... XDDDD
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers IMHO during an emergency braking, it's the mainly the driver generating the braking pressure, not the pump alone. In the pressue accumulator the pump can build up some more presure but only for a brief period (also good for around 2 seconds of hill hold in my Octavia 4x4). My expreience with this emergency system is that it increases breaking pressure early in the pedal travel where brake pressure is not maximal. So it does not help for peak braking force but for quickly ramping it up. A stronger pump could, in theory, keep the accumulator run out of pressure later or give an initial brake pulse (like the emergency assistant) strong enough to let the gripping rear wheel build up momentum for pushing the slipping rear wheel off the rollers. But please correct me if I'm wrong with my theory.
Is that the reason some early cars with these systems are so weak applying them? Because the pump is too small? I've always asked that question and never gotten a satisfying answer from anyone. Because noone can be that stupid that they cant formulate the simple principle of "IF wheelsspin THEN increase brake pressure". When the whole main point of the system is to get unstuck... Because I can do it with the parking brake manually on the rear wheels of a 4WD car and get unstuck. But a system can fail at it. So there must have been some hardware limitation somewhere in the system especially on older cars. Noone can fail that bad at programming it.
I had 2 TT's, both 8J, pre facelift and facelift models. on the facelift one i had only one ESP off setting, not sport and off like in the prefacelift one. How does your car have sport and off? did you remove the ABS fuse?
Bit random but is it possible for a haldex awd to be rear biased? My mk3 8S TTS was a great drive but boring. My mk1 actually felt better because you could feel the front to rear shift. A rwd feel would have transformed the car.
@@PaulGISI know that there isn’t one available but my question is from an engineering point of view. A sporty car with transverse engine and rwd until traction is lost and then the front axle kicks in. Great for the keen driver but probably not enough market demand to justify the expense.
Не понятно, что автор этим тестом хотел показать. На этих роликах сила трения совсем не нулевая и её достаточно, чтобы под газом передать необходимое количество момента на стоячее колесо. Поэтому все машины съезжают даже с трёх площадок. Если вывесить в диагональ без межколесных блокировок или их имитаций никуда эти ТТ не поедут.
Your comment is unclear. You can't put more grip to the wheel with traction by throttle, that just increases the speed of spinning wheel. That's where EDL intervention is crucial. Here are examples of cars that got stuck: ruclips.net/video/b5eypH2m0QA/видео.html
As someone who lives on icy winter climate. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that there are no rollers on roads that I drive. This means the test is totally not relevant to the real world driving.
@@jamsbong No, they will not do fine. They will struggle all the time - accelerating, braking, cornering. You can move etc. but it's far away of being fine.
No niezupełnie. Różnice w działaniu samego haldexa widać w pierwszym teście, czyli coraz mniejszy poślizg przedniej osi, a w zasadzie jego brak w gen 4.
@@drozdzik0075 To nie ja siedziałem za kierownicą. Kierowca musiał korygować stale w lewo, bo samochód był wypychany w prawo przez tylne lewe koło, które w końcu zaczęło mielić na asfalcie.
Looks like all the cars passed the last test ( one back wheel) only because they slip off the rollers and somehow got more traction from the other three wheels stuck in their rollers.
It looks like the driver in the red TTS didnt push the gas pedal hard enough so that the car would actually engage the Haldex to send enough power to the rear
@4x4.tests.on.rollers really? Wow. Not as effective as a torsion based edl system from 2001 era. Shocked me that the 3 wheel test on gen4 the car just sat without obvious intervention from edl to clamp spinning wheel to shunt power. Everyday is a school day
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
haldex 1 was never in da audi TT
So what was there for example in 2000?
It has the same Haldex as the Golf MK4 you both have Haldex 2?
The mk1 Audi tt had haldex 1.
ТТ 8n had Haldex2
@@MaxTrucklife So what was there for example in 2000?
Guys, you need to make some kind of overall yearly ratings, like the best working AWD systems with locks/no locks.
Your practical research is priceless...
Thanks, maybe this year we'll do some rating :)
Ooo, nice. Thank you. I have first generation Audi TT Quattro 225hp. And I like it on snow
People bag on Haldex, but the latest generation are incredibly quick and their predictive lockup is getting very good.
They bag on Haldex because it's still inferior to the Torsen quattro, and it makes the car feel FWD - because it is most of the time.
Carwow did a snow test between 3 types of quattro: Haldex, Torsen and the one in the E-Tron (not sure if it has a name). Torsen was noticeably better then Haldex, while the E-Tron was better than Torsen.
@@xIcarus227There was no haldex in their test. Besides they used different tyres, furthermore - summer ones, on snow.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers technically correct, it's not a Haldex but works exactly the same. It actually has an advantage over Haldex due to that smart differential at the rear.
Yet it still came second to the traditional Torsen system.
Also, where did they say they used different tyres? Pretty sure they used winter tyres on all 3 cars.
@@xIcarus227 It doesn't work exactly the same. Haldex is powering rear axle via open differential, not each wheel separately and independently. When it comes to tyres - it is stated in description of their video. Only the test with the same winter tyres would be valid for conclusions.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers sure, they replaced the open diff with an LSD, hence the advantage I was talking about. It's still the same principle of operation as Haldex where you control the front-rear split with a clutch pack, and the maximum torque sent to the rear is still 50%. That's functionally the same.
And yes, I see now that they used summer tyres on all cars. It's still a good test as long as there isn't a massive difference between the tyres, the only difference is that the baseline traction will be lower.
Still, you're right, ideally we'd want the exact same tyre on all 3 cars. So it's not a conclusive test, but merely gives us an idea.
After watching at 0.25x speed, the first generation had about 1/4 of a wheel revolution before the rear engages.
The second is around 1/8 of a rotation and fourth 1/16.
Otherwise they seem to perform pretty similar.
Inam glad I have the 4th (2010 Vw T5).
I don't think I have EDL in the rear, but I have locker.
Do you know if the 5th is quicker or better than 4th ?
@@silviuflorescu6838 There are different opinions on that, some say that 4th is quicker but that can be felt only under big load, not during standard driving. The question is how does 6th works in relation to 5th and 4th.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers , do you have any 6th filmed on rollers?
@@silviuflorescu6838 I believe Cupra Formentor is equipped with 6th.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers I'll look for it.
Anyway, it would be interested to see filmed cars tunned with haldex controllers (vdveer, hpa, etc), to see the differences between stock - off - fully engaged mode.
I want to buy one for my 4th gen and don't know which one to choose..
I would love to see an rs3 on these. especially the new 8y or a mk8 golf r with the torgue splitter.
I "only" have an 8v with the open diff and gen 5 haldex. but you can adjuist the agressiveness of the haldex with the drivemodes. I wonder how much differnce is there cause when i look at the data over obd i can see the haldex engageing way earlier and more with it on dynamic compared to comfort.
We would love to test them to but it's all up to volunteers 👍
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers Your bio says youre from poland, i dont know exactly where. Im from western germany so its a bit of a schlepp but not impossible. if i ever get the chance to visit while traveling when im somewhat nearby, I'll let you know in advance.
@@MigotRen I'm from Rzeszow but for sure we'll do some tests in Wrocław this year. Two years ago we've been doing tests in Germany so we never know 🙂
W zasadzie test porównania generacji Haldex mógłby zakończyć się w pierwszych 35 sekundach, reszta to kwestia EDL Audi i Otwartego Mechanizmu Różnicowego na przedniej i tylnej osi pojazdu. W generacji 4 Haldex spina od początku jakieś dociekanie w slow motion to doszukiwanie się dziury w całym, bez slow motion przecież perfidnie widać, że w gen 1/2 spięcie sprzęgieł występuje po uślizgu przedniej osi natomiast w gen4 zaraz po dodanie gazu, jakiekolwiek „opóźnienie” wynika jedynie z drogi jaka występuje od przekładni kątowej z przodu pojazdu, wału napędowego do haldexa i od haldexa do tylnego dyfra i na półosie, dodając do tego poduszki / tuleje gumowe / przeguby na półosiach czy same luzy na zębach w przekładniach.. więc występuje takie zjawisko jak naprężenie napędu i jego luz. W samym FWD też to występuje tylko nie ma punktu odniesienia załączenia sprzęgła do momentu obrotu kół, ale można to odczuć podczas wrzucenia któregoś z biegu na postoju bez hamulca ręcznego i obserwujemy że samochód możemy bujać w przód i tył mimo że jest na biegu. Tak samo się dzieje jak kręcimy kołem na podnośniku.. wyraźnie czujemy luz do momentu zazębienia przekładni .. i to jest to całe „opóźnienie” widoczne jedynie w slow motion od gen 4…
Pytanie jeszcze, ile wynosi to spięcie wstępne w gen 4, minimalny ruch koła może także wystąpić jeśli napęd przy starcie nie jest mocno "zablokowany".
Da się w vcds podpatrzeć
@@franekr997 Sprawdzaliśmy swego czasu Volvo przy pomocy MaxiEcu, haldex 4 miał tam ponad 1000 Nm.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers w VAGu pokazuje procentowy stopień spięcia napędu
I'm curious how much the HALDEX I plug mode modifies the behavior on those tests (it applies a pre-constraint on the Haldex Clutch). It feels much more snappier, before the mode I could feel the weight transfer when traction in the back kicked in, but with the plug you can't feel the activation, it seems it's coming before you start any slip) but I don't have the rollers to test. Any possibility you can test this some day? Or maybe you already did and I'm blind ;)
What do you mean by plug mode? Is that a thing called an "insert"?
its not only a haldex test - the electronics of the ABS are stopping one or two wheels to get power
Of course, TC/EDL.
So when will you do the BYD's AWD test?
When somebody buys it and share for the test...
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers Only available in China, that's gonna be difficult.
Interesting watch. I love Quattro, thank you for sharing.
You are welcome 👍
What you love, "quattro"?!😂😂.. probably your automotive knowledge it stops at the fact cars usually have four wheels and one steering wheel😂
Audi TT/A3 = Golf, so it's not QUATTRO ( Torsen) but 4MOTION (Haldex) (FWD plus 4WD if needed, but Quattro is 'always' 4WD)
@@marcinmarx "Quattro" or "4Motion" are just a trademarks, a marketing names, they do not mean any particular systems. 4Motion may be also based on torsen and other solutions, depends which model you consider. The same with quattro, here are all types since 1980: ruclips.net/video/FADv7oPPgMY/видео.html
I love the oil stains that are left behind these Audi's
interesting results. I though that the last test will be easier than previous (isn't TT RWD biased?), but it seems it is another way. and what is going on with newest model? why it failed last test?
TT is FWD biased, just like A3. When it comes to last test, it should be considered as passed cause car did spin the wheel with grip. Tarmac of that car park was really slippery.
If the ABS could have just a bit larger hydraulic pump in the ABS system, it could finally transfer enough torque to the standing wheel.
Btw do we get to see something 4/AWD fitted with an LSD sometime? Maybe a VAG with a wavetrac in the rear? :D
It's not a matter of pump size but computer decision to use it. When it comes to lsd - it's all up to volunteers 🙂
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers Being a former ECU software developer I'm positive those ABS/ESP/EDS ECUs pushed their 'pump button' as hard as they could for the _only-one-rear-wheel_ test... XDDDD
@@Blazs120gl Do you think it pushes harder than during emergency braking?
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers IMHO during an emergency braking, it's the mainly the driver generating the braking pressure, not the pump alone. In the pressue accumulator the pump can build up some more presure but only for a brief period (also good for around 2 seconds of hill hold in my Octavia 4x4). My expreience with this emergency system is that it increases breaking pressure early in the pedal travel where brake pressure is not maximal. So it does not help for peak braking force but for quickly ramping it up.
A stronger pump could, in theory, keep the accumulator run out of pressure later or give an initial brake pulse (like the emergency assistant) strong enough to let the gripping rear wheel build up momentum for pushing the slipping rear wheel off the rollers.
But please correct me if I'm wrong with my theory.
Is that the reason some early cars with these systems are so weak applying them? Because the pump is too small?
I've always asked that question and never gotten a satisfying answer from anyone. Because noone can be that stupid that they cant formulate the simple principle of "IF wheelsspin THEN increase brake pressure". When the whole main point of the system is to get unstuck...
Because I can do it with the parking brake manually on the rear wheels of a 4WD car and get unstuck. But a system can fail at it.
So there must have been some hardware limitation somewhere in the system especially on older cars. Noone can fail that bad at programming it.
so the last gen is the worst?
I wouldn't call it the worst, rather different.
I had 2 TT's, both 8J, pre facelift and facelift models. on the facelift one i had only one ESP off setting, not sport and off like in the prefacelift one. How does your car have sport and off? did you remove the ABS fuse?
We didn't remove the fuse. Red one was actually TTS, maybe that's the reason.
Great👏👏👏👏👏.......keep giving good contents.......you could do some practical test like slippery hill climb or snow - mud test in future videos.👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks, sometimes we do snow tests 👍
where did you buy those rollers
Custom made.
У красной неисправны задние амортизаторы:).
Зад раскачивается при вьезде на ролики.
for me is no. it has magnetic ride - in comfort mode
Bit random but is it possible for a haldex awd to be rear biased?
My mk3 8S TTS was a great drive but boring.
My mk1 actually felt better because you could feel the front to rear shift.
A rwd feel would have transformed the car.
no Halex system can deliver more that 50% of power to the rear.
It's possible to make RWD feel in haldex system by gearing trickery.
@@PaulGISI know that there isn’t one available but my question is from an engineering point of view.
A sporty car with transverse engine and rwd until traction is lost and then the front axle kicks in.
Great for the keen driver but probably not enough market demand to justify the expense.
@@Largeone1968Check how Toyota made it: ruclips.net/video/UlnGG4frZ68/видео.html
Try searching for a tool called Haldex controller, but im not sure if its somewhat healthy to the haldex system
On a S3 2017 haldex just ❤
you need wider rollers
It wouldn't change much cause car still would be sliding to the side, steering input is necessary.
I think using the steering wheel must not be allowed under any circumstances.
Thanks for those videos.
Using steering wheel is necessary: ruclips.net/video/O1mEqyU9KDo/видео.html
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers understood.
Oldest is best?
Nope, 4th is much better.
Получается полный привод работает лучше на первом поколении тт
Torsen is the best!
In general:
1st Haldex IV
2nd Haldex I
3th Haldex II
There's no haldex 3, it's 4.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers My bad and corrected. 🫣
QUATRO 4TH GEN WILL be more downgrade?
There's 4th gen of haldex, not 4th gen of quattro. And it's huge upgrade in relation to 1st and 2nd.
Почему вместо третьего поколения ТТ, я вижу второе в кузове кабриолет?
This is about generations of Haldex, not TT. Second generation of TT had haldex II and IV.
Не понятно, что автор этим тестом хотел показать.
На этих роликах сила трения совсем не нулевая и её достаточно, чтобы под газом передать необходимое количество момента на стоячее колесо. Поэтому все машины съезжают даже с трёх площадок.
Если вывесить в диагональ без межколесных блокировок или их имитаций никуда эти ТТ не поедут.
Your comment is unclear. You can't put more grip to the wheel with traction by throttle, that just increases the speed of spinning wheel. That's where EDL intervention is crucial. Here are examples of cars that got stuck: ruclips.net/video/b5eypH2m0QA/видео.html
As someone who lives on icy winter climate. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that there are no rollers on roads that I drive.
This means the test is totally not relevant to the real world driving.
Don't you know that rollers simulate some situations from icy winter climate?
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers You can actually move on ice when you have the right tires. These rollers don't represent that at all.
@@jamsbong On ice only studded tyres give grip. Rollers do not represent grip but lack of grip or very low grip.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers ruclips.net/video/wf_mIlU82Ac/видео.html
Here.. No studs winter tires will do just fine one ice.
@@jamsbong No, they will not do fine. They will struggle all the time - accelerating, braking, cornering. You can move etc. but it's far away of being fine.
Однохuйственно👌
If you can perform such shenanigans with your sports car on rollers, then you car is not low enough 🙃
Audi R8 did it to 👍
Why does a car need to be low?
"4 wheel" drive. What is even the point of this system? If 1 wheel can't pull you out, it's no better than open diff.
Open diff but which one, center, front, rear?
Funfact: R8, Huracane, Avantadir have haldex😅
First gen of R8 has viscous coupling.
Didn't see a big difference
Czym nowsze tym gorsze xd
No niezupełnie. Różnice w działaniu samego haldexa widać w pierwszym teście, czyli coraz mniejszy poślizg przedniej osi, a w zasadzie jego brak w gen 4.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers ale mniejszy moment przekazywany na tylną oś co widać w ostatnim teście ,
@@adammo17 No właśnie większy, a nie mniejszy. W ostatnim teście to już bardziej kwestia EDL i jego współpracy z haldexem.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers w ostatnim teście jakbyś nie kręcił kierownicą to dalej byś tam stał 😅
@@drozdzik0075 To nie ja siedziałem za kierownicą. Kierowca musiał korygować stale w lewo, bo samochód był wypychany w prawo przez tylne lewe koło, które w końcu zaczęło mielić na asfalcie.
Looks like all the cars passed the last test ( one back wheel) only because they slip off the rollers and somehow got more traction from the other three wheels stuck in their rollers.
No, they were able to spin the wheel with traction.
It looks like the driver in the red TTS didnt push the gas pedal hard enough so that the car would actually engage the Haldex to send enough power to the rear
@@MrLorenczo He did, watch how hard was the wheel with grip working.
Ah okay@@4x4.tests.on.rollers
Not much difference imho
If only they had edl like .
They all have.
@4x4.tests.on.rollers really? Wow. Not as effective as a torsion based edl system from 2001 era. Shocked me that the 3 wheel test on gen4 the car just sat without obvious intervention from edl to clamp spinning wheel to shunt power. Everyday is a school day
@@Audimad52 Well, they weren't too effective then to... ruclips.net/video/LXlfPf3XI8w/видео.html
My A4 TQS worked well irl. Granted, I never nailed it onto 3 rollers. Thank you
Audi 🙈
looks like 225 took the 1 place lol
What the conclusion 🤣🤣🤣that all 3 are crap all seem to do exactly the same
@@miguelpelayo5265 Why crap? And there are differences, they do not operate the same.
Haldex its not quatro!
It is, one of over twenty different types: ruclips.net/video/FADv7oPPgMY/видео.html
That was embarrassing…
🤮
Haldex - a definition for no progress whatsoever.
Can't agree, there's huge difference between the oldest and the newest generations.
Ugly car but works great😅
Audi - quattro = TORSEN...!!!!
There's much more than torsen: ruclips.net/video/FADv7oPPgMY/видео.html
haldex=garbage
Wondering if owners of cars like R8, Veyron, Chiron, Aventador say the same...